Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

It seems that Obama's deficit spending will be much larger than the former president who shall not be mentioned by name.

Craig - Good points again just a few questions or counter points

Then Explain why Obama deficit is 4 times already higher and we are not even out of the first 6 months?

And STOP remember 2006? Which body sets spending? would that be House of Reps controlled by the Democrats now on its 3rd year I think..

Bowmac- beat me to it and did not Woo Hoo !

So is Obama speak with fork tounge?

One last one...

Prior Dem Presidents more centric.

This must prove that Obama is far left Socialist Democrat that is different and is trying to change the fabric of our American Country.. He did call it CHANGE Yes we can

"Then Explain why Obama deficit is 4 times already higher and we are not even out of the first 6 months?"

1: The cost of both the Irag and Afghanistan Wars are now included in the yearly budget.

Bush\Cheney hid the cost from the American People.

2: The bail out of our banks and the stimulus to keep us from the total financial meltdown of our economy which would have turned us into a third world country.

The Republicans had no problems along with some Democrats to scared to say no raped, pillaged and plundered our country for their corporate masters as they lined their pockets with bribe money.

We should borrow one of Judge Judy's phrases when someone says something completely outrageous:

"Liar, liar, pant's on fire!"

"It seems that Obama's deficit spending will be much larger than the former president who shall not be mentioned by name."

bow & ping, and wasn't that unnamed former president's deficit far more than 4 times larger (maybe by thousands, millions, billions) than his predecessor's when he left office?

Good morning trail mixers. Later maybe.

pant's = pants

"Is public healthcare in the UK as sick as rightwing America claims?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/11/nhs-sick-healthcare-reform

Just because the one who names shall not be spoken raised the deficit beyond his predecessor doesn't mean it's a good idea to double down.

patd - Yes...
and 100 dollars is 4 times 25.

But Barackonomics is out of control and he did it in 6 months - Just Wait.
It took Bush 8 Years and the last 2 years with a Dem controlled House that Bush bowed down to

so Barack is more then 16 times the spend of Clinton ! and wait I thought he was going to get us out of war?
who's pants on fire?

Obama used the prescription drug plan as an example of an legislation that was not covered by the budget as a dodge of the question about how he was going to pay for this without raising taxes. Pretty unsatisfactory answer to a question that was very civil. In my opinion that whole thing in NH was pretty lame, just another love fest. The real action was outside the high school.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/can-obama-rule-the-mob.html#comment-250594

dex, thanks for reminding us. hope we can dredge up the past, post it, motivate the msm, and rub some faces in it.

User Fees, User Fees, User Fees, User Fees, User Fees

I ain't raising no stinking taxes!

Flatus... Just wait for Cap and Trade.
Gosh not a tax - but wait until you see your power bill. And for what?

Basic macro-economics.

(A) When you are in a recession (or the early stages of a recovery) you should...
* increase government spending
* lower taxes
* lower interest rates
This creates a deficit, but that's OK. The goal is to return the economy to growth.

(B) Deficits should be decreased during periods of economic growth by...
* decreasing government spending
* increasing taxes
* raising interest rates

Most national governments find it easier to do (A) than (B) so most run a small deficit even during times of growth. This is OK as long as the deficit doesn't become too large. (What "too large" means is a matter of debate among economists).

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250621

nash, there you go again trying to make sense.

Deficits in a nutshell...

Deficits were never really a problem in the past because the U.S. government borrowed the money from its own citizens, buy selling bonds. We were, essentially, "borrowing money from ourselves, and then paying interest to ourselves."

But, over the past ten years, most govt bonds were bought by foreigners, with the Chinese government being the largest bond holder. This was NOT good. We were borrowing money from the Chinese and paying them interest, which caused their economy to grow faster, and ours to grow slower as capital flowed out to them.

The reason that foreigners bought bonds is: (A) they were a safe investment; and (B) U.S. citizens were spending all they earned. With little or no savings, few in the U.S. had cash to buy bonds. Those that did have cash, preferred to invest in the higher risk/higher return stock market.

Due to the "financial crisis," U.S. citizens are saving more and buying more bonds. This is a hopeful sign that the trend towards foreign ownership of bonds may be ending.

Nash, you need to toss a bucketful of normative economics into the mix, i.e., what is/should be the role of government in our society, and how do we fund that role.

And, if a goal is good healthcare for all, doesn't it make sense that we consider the total bill rather than just what is put on the government's tab? And, aren't people who are rejecting that premise obfuscating for the sake of partisan obfuscation?

"Airborne rabbis fight off swine flu"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8196807.stm

I guess a trillion ($1,000,000,000,000) sounds pretty reasonable.

Here is what a trillion dollars looks like.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12754

And about that trillion, I sure am glad I don't have to pay for it, how about you?

patd: Thanks.

Economics is not really that hard to understand, but most of the basic concepts don't fit into a sound bite. Thus, most politicians don't even try to explain this stuff (assuming they understand it themselves).

Most U.S. economists (this excludes the right wing wackos Fox digs up) are not worried about deficits. The highest priority now is to increase the economic growth rate (GDP) back to 3-5%.

If you want a good understanding of economic issues that are currently being debated in the politcial arena, read Krugman's columns in the "New York Times." He's good at explaining economics, and he's witty too.

Craig...sad, but true. Today after watching the crazies at the town hall meetings, reading about a local meeting, etc., I wonder how Obama even got elected? I am shocked at the ignorance and insanity that is being smeared on the American public. Dems sure blew it by not getting that vote on health care before August and now we have a morphed, hybrid of a mess.

There will be no reform, no public option....the dems lost, insurance won. After viewing the antics, maybe health care, like home ownership, is not for everyone.
Ah, if there really were death panels.....

flatus: In macro-economic terms, whether we have govt financed healthcare or not is irrelevant.

All that matters is the total amount of government spending, not WHAT the money is being spent on.
So, it doesn't matter what the "stimulus" money gets spent on, as long as it gets spent, and the faster, the better.

Most economists would say that healthcare finance is a "political" issue, not an economic issue.

(Most reputable economists are politcal liberals, and they probably support the public option. But that's politics, not economics.)

Bowmanc

As I told Ping yesterday

the house is on fire and you are worried about the water bill.

So lets turn the water off and let the house burn down, we will save money that way
Right?

One other thing
of the so called "trillion" dollar deficit Obama only owns the stimulus package part.
Less than what the previous administration kept off the books for Iraq and Afganistan.

So are you saying Iraqis are more important than God fearing Americans?

Jack

My last post reminds me of something

Has anyone noticed how stale the demagoguing is on both sides?

Totally 20th century.
How about some new demagoguery out there.

Jack

"remember 2006? Which body sets spending? would that be House of Reps controlled by the Democrats now on its 3rd year I think"

Complete BS Ping and you know it. That congress under Bush had NO power. Buch ruled like Pol Pot....notice I didn't mention that guy who ran Germany? :)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250608

Ahgree completely, Anon. To blame Obama for the debt now is akin to blaming the doctor for not being able to save a woman whose husband beat her braindead with a lead pipe.

Actually in real life , rather than Ping theoretical one, the body that has the most power over the budget is the presidents budgetary office. They create the budget and the president sends it to congress. It's not 1800 any more. For a large hegemonic power like the US budgeting is a complicated process that takes man power. The executive office has it congress doesn't

Jack

President Obama, "You will not be waiting in any lines."

Really? So by adding 47 million people to the health care system will not create lines? Just simply amazing! Where will all the doctors, nurses, hospital beds, etc., come from to instantly accommodate these additional 47 million individuals?

If you liked welfare, you'll love Big GOVCO operated health care.

Well the painter has a key but I need to go over and make sure he paints what need painting and stains what needs staining.
Besides that I need to keep ahead of him.
We are moving out side. He is a great detail man but I get to work the power washer and the paint sprayer
I was at it till 8 last night scraping and power washing the out side. Got caulking to do this morning. Then get the pain sprayer out and spray paint everywhere.
Should be fun.
Later

Jack

TIR

LOL
You are killing me man
That is so 20th century.

It is also so ridden with falseness that I don't have time to address it.
I know you think it was a brilliant comment but you need to go back to your desk and work on it some more.

Jack

Just simply amazing! Where will all the doctors, nurses, hospital beds, etc., come from to instantly accommodate these additional 47 million individuals?

Truth -- more bs, many people have a dental plan and they never use it. You think the day we all have equal and fair access to health care, we will make an appointment the first day? This is another republican talking point and you guys are really derailing health care. I am taking this very personally...it is this asshole thinking that may eventually kill us all!

Bowman,

That trillion ($1,000,000,000,000) is just a best guess and nothing more, when has ever a government project ever come in on projected cost? That trillion will end up costing all of us trillions.

LOL
You are killing me man
That is so 20th century.

Jack, my point exactly. This type of idiotic logic Truth is applying is madness.

Don't worry, TiR -- with any luck enough people will die while they are in line and you'll still get to see your proctologist.

Truth

The money is there....we just have to wrestle the profit out of the insurance giant's pocket. Too bad, republican thugs are protecting the giant.

Camille Paglia, a Liberal feminist who I agree with ref. Obama health care..

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/

bush left a mess ''fine clean it up then'' don't start a new mess '' when is the last time obama even mentioned iraq or afghanistan' somebody needs to figure out a exit strategy or even a strategy for afghanistan '' after eight years and we're putting more troops in ' thats fine 'but obama needs to come up
with an explanation and a plan

I love how the MSM is a allowing the wingnuts to have air time....it is a ploy to make sure we hate each other enough so we don't take care of each other. Let 'em all die!

Patsi...I heard proctology will NOT be subject to rationing...best news I've heard today.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250605

Ping

The first bailout was under Bush and even more important, Obama has put the war on budget. The deficit looks much worse when you actually let people know what you are spending.

Patsi,

"you'll still get to see your proctologist." That is correct I will, but those sucking the gov't health care tit will die waiting in line. I trust all of you who are in favor of this gov't run health care program, as a sign of your true convictions, will op-out of your private heath care coverage and sign onto the gov't plan once it becomes available.

"I trust all of you who are in favor of this gov't run health care program, as a sign of your true convictions, will op-out of your private heath care coverage and sign onto the gov't plan once it becomes available."

guess you aren't near sixty five are you?

whskyjack,

I love how it all comes back to Bush, when actually, it probably goes all the way back to LBJ and the "Great Society".

And to your question "So are you saying Iraqis are more important than God fearing Americans?"

That is quite a leap on your part, I didn't say that and I haven't said that. My question to you is what about the American agnostics & atheists, are they more or less important that Iraqis?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250625

patd

It is way too early in Tacoma. I read your note as "airborne rabbits" and my first thought was

Pigs fly and are fighting with the flying rabbits

mqw,

'but obama needs to come up with an explanation and a plan"

Has no one ever noticed this before about Obama? Obama always has ideas, but never a written plan, and therefore, cannot and/or does not have to provide any explanations. It is a classic game he is playing, and apparently no one is watching.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250629

BW

Watching some of those folks spouting the nuttiness from their emails, forgive me but I kept thinking: "There are no death panels, but for you we might make an exception".

There are times when I am not a nice person and willful ignorance gets to me every time.

"Camille Paglia, a Liberal feminist"

LMAO! LMAO! Paglia -- WFE. Worst. Feminist. Ever.

"I trust all of you who are in favor of this gov't run health care program, as a sign of your true convictions, will op-out of your private heath care coverage and sign onto the gov't plan once it becomes available. "

Well, now, TiR. That would be assuming that my provider hadn't already figured out how to screw me out of my insurance once I needed it, plus make sure that because of a now-existing condition I can't get more.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250644

TIR

When did Camille Paglia become a "liberal feminist"? Statements from a quarter of a century ago, being openly lesbian, and a love interest of Conservatives do not a liberal make.

http://newsbusters.org/node/4814

mornin'

Ah, the return of TiR. You know not what you speak.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250636

The 47 million are already in the healthcare system. They are seen by doctors in clinics and emergency rooms of hospitals that participate in Medicare/medicaid - primarily as uncompensated care. No one gets added to the healthcare system under any reform proposal. The proposals are a reform of how that care gets paid for and by whom. On the other hand, there will be some increase in services provided to that group, likely before they get so sick that their care becomes catastrophic and incredibly exensive - but determining how much that preventive care will cost is as speculative as determining what the savings will be from reforms in the healthcare delivery system envisioned by the admin. Yes, why should we hardworking Americans with insurance pay for healthcare for ourselves and those who do not have insurance - like EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION ON THE FUCKING PLANET? Because we are like to hold ourselves up as somehow better than the rest? Because we like to think we're a beacon of light in a rather dim world? Because we want to protect the exhorbitant salaries and profits of the for-profit healthcare sector? Or more to the point, because we're already paying for the healthcare you complain about paying for?

If the administration followed Krugman we would be in deep shit.

The analysis here completely misses the point. You make it sound like recession and growth are simply natural cycles like the seasons.

We "fix" problems when they happen, not just throw money at them. When you pile on such debt the interest payments alone are staggering, when you spend money that does not treat causes and supplies temporary fixes, problems persist, when you "change" things and hope for the growth needed to provide the eventual revenue to pay for spending, you are heading for bigger trouble. The hypocrisy of such an analysis in light of the Democratic rants against Reagan and Bush 1 and 2 is amazing. Suggesting Iraq and Afghanistan are why Obama's deficit numbers are so high is absurd. If that was so expensive then when subtracted from defense budget, we would have left very significant shortfalls over at the DOD.

Most of the world rejects the level of spending Obama is pushing and Nash makes no mention of how we spend and for what. Solar and others have talked about a far more targeted approach that addresses systemic causes and applies capital where it is most needed. Krugman and others seek systemic changes that the country does not agree with from and ideological point of view. Krugman seeks to use recession and spending to remake America into a vision he finds more appealing.

What is missing from Nash's neat explanations is the deliberative process in which we lay out what we are trying to do and what systemic changes we hope to accomplish. He also brushes aside who we are borrowing from and the global picture in which inflation and the value of the dollar play a role. What Nash fails to mention in his economics lesson is the intent of present policy to not just to "stimulate" us out of recession, but into an "America as it ought to be" without much concern for facts.

Obama got an F in NH yesterday. When asked why Congress will not get the public option plan he is proposing, Obama said without his reform the gap between the two plans will not decrease. Some answer. He once again said his plan would not produce any deficit but failed to explain how. When asked how his plan will not drive away private insurance which cannot compete with the public option, his answers were the same unsatisfying BS. Stewart summed it up the best last night with a montage on Democrats on the stump. Even his guest G, was scary. Smiling and reassuring, but never answering the questions Jon posed.

Nash dismisses 10 trillion or so in debt not including interest payments by suggesting we will just raise taxes later on the already-to-be-taxed-now. He assumes that spending necessarily leads to growth. I would be far more comfortable with Bill Clinton at the helm than Krugman.

I'm still waiting for the myriad weapon systems that don't work....seems there are some real savings eliminating them.

Jamie...the repugs have won especially when we all start thinking like this...rational thought is gone. It is the great battle of the pinheads. Look at what Truth is typing...he is so far from reality. Who does he think is paying the bill now? The battle is lost when the clowns and idiots are called in.

Blond Wino

Please send me an email at

webthings at comcast dot net

misplaced your address

Thanks

NP I suggest you lead the charge to change the Constitution and make it read "doctors will not be able to charge for their services". I wonder why so many people come to the US to get the best care either money or government can provide.

Done, Jamie.

"near sixty five are you?" If you are, you better familarize with what is written and what isn't written within these 1000 page bills, because what isn't written carries as much weight as what is written.

During the primaries Obama bragged about the people he surrounded himself with. Who has he surrounded himself with ref. a gov't health plan? Who are these unelected Czars?

Truth, I'm watching. All Obama has to do is to present the public option in detail and let the CBO and other experts go over it. Obama always does the sales pitch and then we are all left to sort out the shocking details after the fact. This is EXACTLY what I protest. Given his majority, this was unnecessary and has begun to look like a huge con job even if it is not.

Just go and play back Stewart from last night. Gupta on CNN had a good reality check last night by fact checking Democratic claims. No the Republicans are not right in all their fears, but Democrats are not being truthful either which leads me to empathize with Solar's distain for both right now.

Oh and that 1.2 trillion we waste in medical spending each year? Gupta lays much of that blame directly on the fat and smoking public as well as doctors trying to avoid law suits. Now I rather doubt Obama thought Gupta conservative enough to be his Surgeon General.

I think Obama still smokes, yes?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250667

Oh for goodness sake Max. If anything, the doctors will be better paid than when the Ins companies aren't pushing them to run patients through the offices every ten minutes.

And you really must give up the "come to the US" meme. It is a proven lie. People come to the US when they can afford it for Elective procedures or to get something a little faster than they might otherwise, but not for standard of care.

We didn't get to be 37th in life expectancy by being the best in the world. If you don't like the Canadian or British version, check out France. They are number 1 for healthcare.

Oh one more thing I forgot to mention.

The budget that was passed for this year was the budget Bush\Cheney sent up to the house and senate, not Obama.

And yes Democrats voted for it along with the Republicans because with the economy in free fall Obama didn't need more crap to fight over while he was trying to stabilize our financial troubles.

Don't be seen like a hypocrite, drop your present private health insurer and hop onboard the gov't run plan.

Be a good American like Nancy wants you to be, just do as you are instructed, and please no talking while in line.

I heard a pinhead use this same republican talking point...you are not fooling me, Truth. You are a good republican soldier!

Who has he surrounded himself with ref. a gov't health plan? Who are these unelected Czars?

i rather doubt that if a man said what hillary said and used the same tone, that it would be referred to as an 'outburst' and be discussed ad naseum.

Truth...I am sure the next trick you pull out of the repug magic bag will be....the Nazi connection! Are you sure you are not Glenn Beck????

Everybody that wants the US to be like France raise your hand. Planes leaving from JFK every hour.

I'm baaaaack..... at least for a moment.

I'm shocked at how well I did at my fair. I was only a couple hundred dollars short of what I did last year. I expected to be short by at least a couple thousand. However, this good fortune did not befall everyone. The jewelers really took it on the chin this year. The furniture makers had a disastrous time. Only one piece.... a rocking chair in a special exhibit.... sold for the entire 9 days. But everyone was in good spirits. Smiles, hugs, and jokes were plentiful among us craftspeople. We are one big family and I loved being there among them all.

I did try to read Craig's column everyday. But didn't have time or energy to read any comments. I've been trying to read the threads since Monday.... but am finding at the moment that I don't care about anything political. I'm finding all the arguments so much blah, blah, blah. I've spent most of the last few days outside in the shade on a lounge chair with a good book and some lemonade.

I guess I need a break. I'll be back when the mood strikes me. Could only be a day or two.... but I'll take what I need. I do miss all of you and hope everyone is doing well. And Nash... I am thrilled to see you back, buddy!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250636

TIR...

It will be different now except they won't be using the emergency room of the local hospital.

In fact it will be a lot better since true emergency's can now be treated sooner in a emergency room since the waiting time too be seen will be shorter.

I am off to the dentist...have a good day all! Be careful out there...reform will never happen...not in this atmosphere.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250678

Just medical care Bowman, just medical care. It is a combination public/private system and you might actually like it if you took a look

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/

Well the 35 hour work weeks and month long vacations would sound pretty good if I weren't already retired. Then there is the easy access to good red wine ... hmmmmmmmmm Drat I don't speak French.

Everybody

If you haven't received an email from me in the last week or so, it means I don't have your email. If you don't mind me having your info, please write me at webthings at comcast dot net.

Thanks

It is a proven lie that people come here to be treated at Sloan Kettering or in Rochester NY? Are you completely nuts? We do not have the cutting edge of medical services? I want facts Jamie, not your talking points.

And you think our medical system is responsible for obesity, smoking, violence and the inability of many Americans to stay fit -all contributing to lower mortality rates often from countries with far less ethnic and economic variablity. On what planet do you asemble your "facts"?

You can't stand it when great things are said about our healthcare system because Democrats are in the attack mode. Insurance companies and our present medical system are terrible. And America was one inch away from making the Great Depression look like a picnic. Now who uses fear?

News Flash Jamie, Americans give the quality of our system very high marks. Let me repeat what Obama first said before he changed tactics to keep the ship floating:

Americans do not like the rising costs, nor do I.

Americans want the legally uninusred to have some basic coverage (see Boston?) so as not to keep running to the ER

That is what he built he push on, so don't interject another meme or game plan. I have gotten some of the best treatment and service. I have no problem with my doctors here in NYC. And they did not tell me to smoke.

What I and millions of Americans want is some regulation of the waste and profit so my rates go down without impacting quality and for coverage to extend to those that cannot afford any coverage.

It was the Democrats who subverted that by making about changing our dreadful system into a non profit government run healthcare system. The fact that Obama can't be honest about this has led to the preception we are being conned.

Well aren't we if you use Obama's orginal measure as a guide. Even last night he said he just wants to cover the uninsured and lower the rising cost of medical care. All the other fears he suggested were unfounded.

Oh really?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250667

Well of course you are right. If you have the money you can have the best of not only health care, but the best of everything else there is to have as well.

Max, the WSJ article you cited on job creation under Bush does not agree with the government's figures I provided. Their numbers seem to come from the CEJ tables at the BLS website, which indicate an overall job increase during the Bush years of about 3 million as you point out.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.compaes.txt

I would have to compare the two sets of data to see what accounts from the difference, but it is akin to sorting through chickenshit to find a few undigested corn kernals, so I probably won't. We do agree that Bush's job creation efforts, to the extent they existed, were a failure. If he "created" 3 million jobs, they were in the service sector of the economy (grew by 7 million - half of which was in education/health - a good thing) while the goods producing sector dropped by 3.5 million - a bad thing. The best that can be said is that it took him 8 years to do what his father did in 4.

From "gasp" The American Thinker Web site

Oh the irony! That the President would, in so simple and clueless a fashion, utter the most crystalline sentence I could imagine to debunk his own absurd policies. Private postal industries, performing in ways a government run enterprise cannot, are doing fine, while the Post Office, the eternal taxpayer money pit, is not. That simple truth should be broadcast far and wide, in the Presidents own words. Even the first Socialist American President, a man who is attempting to transform us into a nanny state identical to our European allies, understands at some level, that private enterprise is the most successful way to prosper as a nation. So why is he working so hard to undermine it?

Oh and Colbert had on the author of "Sick". If the Left thinks these people will reassure the public, they are wrong. The smiley faces make it sound so simple which is the first warning sign one is being bullshitted.

Make it a national referendum. Hell Obama thinks the ex President of Honduras had a right to call for a referendum to make him king for life. Let's see the bill and vet it. Then we can have a national referendum.

How's that for a solution to this unecessary mess?

What the President said was that private and government postal services exist side by side. I find the example apalling in comparing healthcare to mail delivery. And such comparisons did not answer the question asked which was if the government plan would drive out private ones. If that is the kind of answer Obama thinks illuminates, he is actually not as bright as I thought he was. Even in his own orchestrated world, he appeared a bit silly.

Please someone explain why Democrats are doing this? With the votes and time, why are they snatching defeat from victory? They have such a great opportunity to effect real change and spend a lot of money. Why are they do both so poorly and in a way that unecessarily damages their credibility?

It is astounding and for the umpteenth time, I do not think HIllary and Bill would have signed off on a Pelosi/Reid Congress to get things done. They would have formed a bipartisan block isolating the extremes on both sides.

NP I have viewed twenty centrist sites that come up with net gains, but Bush didn't do so well. I just said that by Bush's measure, Obama is doing worse, but I understand the different situation though Bush was beset by a recession and 9/11. Do you dispute that?

He was battling a meltdown the entire time in office and relied on housing to prop him up which explains a lot. Dems had their reason to go along with the toxic properties as did Bush. Together the Dems and Repubs led us into the mess Obama now uses to reshape government, heatlcare, energy, foreign policy, education, immigration etc. etc. etc.

Max, doctors do charge, and will. The ones who provide most of the care - ED docs, family docs, OB/GYNs get paid the least. This isn't about them not getting paid, but by whom. And your puffing about the cutting edge of healthcare, best healthcare in the world, and on and on, supported by a few truly cutting edge centers, would be much more convincing if the outcome measures supported them, but they don't.

Bowman, give it a break. How about, everyone who wants the US healthcare system to be like France's raise you hand. Or perhaps, everyone who wants the us healthcare system to produce outcomes that the French system produces raise your hand. Frankly, I'd like to see another good French restaurant nearby.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250688

Bowman

Fed Ex and UPS are not required by law to deliver to every single address in the United States for the same price. Nor, since they specialize in packages, has their business been undercut by email and falling precipitous usage.

Actually, the Post Office runs very very well and if you were required to go pick up your mail at a post office rather than have it delievered, I'm sure they could save a lot of money. (This is actually done in many rural or mountainous communities now.) Put it into use everywhere and I'm sure you would be bellyaching even more.

Bowmanc

Sorry not a good comparison

The Post office gives great service at a much better cost than the private companies.

Fact is you get to see the economic deliberations of the post office, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors of the private companies.
And didn't one just fail.

Jack

BW,

"I am off to the dentist...have a good day all! Be careful out there...reform will never happen...not in this atmosphere."

I don't think that the R's , or the D's wanted us to have U H. They both did want the insurance, and the Pharms. and the Lawyers, the corps involved, the money involved is just too big to fight against. Sort of like the money t hat a third party, and organization behind it is needed in order to succeed.

We, the public are not smart enough to know that we can get whatever we want: If we just think and act as one; for our common good. The R's and D's have us fighting each other so much that this will take a lot longer than we think.

They keep us at each others troughts with the help of the Media. What is sad is that intelligent people on both sides don't see this. I have family that argues, and sometimes, being very mean about it. Not just in converstation, but in a take a side and win at all cost arguement: The trot out Glenn Beck's radio show, and others, while some will trot out K. O. and even what the comics are saying, as the truth and nothing but the truth......just picking sides.....

Both party's are always trotting out some soldier to make an emotional point, some teacher to make a point about education: Some will eat a humburger at some greasy spoon joint; We even had Hillary, and Obama do shots and beer, just to communicat to ust that they could be one of us..yeah right. I keep asking my self.....Solar, ( U thought I was going to say self didn't you :-) If you wanted to sell this single payer plan to the public; why not take a few doctors on a speaking tour about it, along with other people that could explain the cost of paper work, how the emergencey rooms are taking care of the poor any way, explain it over and over, until we all understood it. and than watch the polls go to 90 % in favor of it.

Both of them do not want to go against their own big corp bud's.
Part of this dynamics is to keep us hating each other, dividing us, Its so much fun to gather facts, false or true and fight over them. Still thin we don't need a third part? A flat income, and a flat sales tax would go a long way to resolving this, imo, but t his can be put into the same category of what they don't really want us to have. It would be to easy for us to see where all of the money goes, less smoke and mirrors etc.

Hey, I didn't make the comparison, Obama did.

Now pogo, why don't you start a new French Restaurant or invest in one. Is there a market to support it in your area? You might know, I don't.

No you made fun of the comparison when it was a perfectly apt and intelligent one. It is possible to have side by side public / private services that fulfill different functions. They don't destroy each other but rather compliment in the provision of services.

I have a pretty good idea what happens behind closed doors in a private company, I work for one.

One thing for sure, if you do not perform, you won't be working there long.

All of this "US has best medical care in the world" assininity reminds me of Mr. Johnson

""Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
-- Samuel Johnson (Boswell's Life of Johnson)"

Just came across a write up, that he may have been specifically speaking of that Conservative icon, Edmund Burke

http://www.samueljohnson.com/qotw02q2.html#0630

Apparently they had a bit of feud going.

max, Bush did face a very mild recession when he took office. Obama was facing an economic meltdown that saw a loss of over 3 million jobs in the economy in 2008. Yep, they are different situations. Total nonfarm employment was essentially flat throughout Bush's first term and half of the gains in the first 3 years of his last term were wiped out in 2008.

Bowmanc

Come on be real,
you are down on the shop floor, people at your level have no idea what is going on in the big office. The first time you know about a layoff is when they hand you your pinkslip.
Down on your level it is rumor and fear. been there done that.

BTW most likely even the suits at your plant have no clue what goes on in the big office.
Jack

Bowman, restaurants are a big gamble under the best of circumstances. The one French one we have is always busy - but I can always get a table id I call by noon or so - except on prom nights when the high school dappers an lovelies fill the place with gaudy dresses and bad tuxes. It would be a long shot I'd rather not take - this is WV after all. Not a lot of people clamoring for more French food options here.

Hey all, here's what I'm doing for the rest of my summer STAYcation -- built a cozy little homepage. Please sign the guestbook in lower left corner:

http://craigcrawford.com/

By the way, this will be the emergency url for updates whenever we have technical issues here.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250700

And if you are on top of an insurance company and figure out new ways to gouge the American publick, then $1 out of every $700 healthcare dollars will go to pay your salary.

Lucky You

healthcare.

Something as simple as treating a cold Europe is very good doing. Once we get passed that phase of healthcare and onto the more serious stuff, America shines. In Europe if you need an operation, MRI etc, and don't have pvt insurance, please take your ticket and go to the end of the line. Get use to lines. Make sure you have a pair of comfortable shoes with you, and something to read, and maybe something to eat. Waiting in line... lol

Since the 47 million individuals is not static figure, what gov't agency will be given the task to remove and add individuals to this computerized database? What will happen to unemployed Joe and his claims once he finds work whose employer offers a health plan and how will this transfer all of his medical records and other personal records, claims and adjustment will be handled fluidly without jeopardizing the patient's treatment, privacy and or their medical records.

Obama doesn't even believe the gov't run Post Office is up to par with the likes of UPS or FEDX, but a gov't run a health care plan will better than your current health insurance provider. LMAO.

For a person who is so determined to have a health care plan, and have one rushed through, why hasn't Obama submitted his own plan? Isn't anyone the least bit curious on what his own plan would look like?

TIR

As usual. No links. No proof. No actual information. Nothing but opinion and force fed talking points.

As to why no submitted plan. When Hillary did that it got ripped to shreds. Obama chose to have the representatives of the people design something that they thought would benefit their constituents. As usual with a committee it pretty well turned into a complete cock up.

I happen to agree that the WH should provide a guideline of absolute minimum provisions that any bill passed must have.

"The 47 million are already in the healthcare system. They are seen by doctors in clinics and emergency rooms of hospitals that participate in Medicare/medicaid - primarily as uncompensated care. "

Hate to disagree with you, Pogo. But that isn't right. I believe I've been to a Doc-in-a-Box twice in three years since my insurance got cancelled. And I pay cash when I go. And I did take part in a Vanderbilt Med Center test of an expirimental drug, which helped. But it's not approved, so I can't get it now. (Go figure...)

So I just don't go to the doctor. Nor do I take the medicine I am supposed to have.

In another year I'll have Medicare.

Jamie,

"Actually, the Post Office runs very very well and if you were required to go pick up your mail at a post office rather than have it delievered, I'm sure they could save a lot of money"

And the PO keep losing $$$ every year. Making you pick up your mail? Interesting yes it would save money on the delivery, and may work out in a village, but anywhere else they would have to hand out the mail by lottery or by last name. The cost for the extra storage for all the mail that wasn't picked up would far outweigh the cost of delivery.

PO: Jamie you have to be at your PO at 11:45AM on Fridays to get your mail.

Jamie: But I can't I have other things to do then.

PO: Do you want your mail? If so be here.

"i rather doubt that if a man said what hillary said and used the same tone, that it would be referred to as an 'outburst' and be discussed ad naseum."

Yes indeed, OSH!

Craig,

You need to make a change to the new page. The guest book displays email addresses. Most places that allow for imput of emails don't publish them for public viewing.

Max, one thing that we haven't addressed is that under Bush, job creation - while mildly positive, put .8% fewer of the total population in jobs than when he came into office. In other words, the Bush economy created fewer jobs than the additional available labor force created by population growth over the course of his administration. That was reflected in the rise in the unemployment rate of 1.3% among men and .7% among women (combined - 1.1%) and the number of folks not in the labor force - which increased by over 4 million among men and about 4 million among women. These numbers are only for persons over age 16.

TIR

So your point is? The Post Office keeps losing money, but if we charged what it actually cost most people couldn't afford it, but if we eliminated door to door delivery, storage would cost more.

Would you like to chase that turkey or an argument around in circles a few more times?

If we want healthcare for everyone, we will have to pay for it ... Well Duh! Leaving it in the hands of private industry that strips profits out of the system isn't going to make it cheaper. So what is your solution: If you are rich enough you get medical care. If you aren't go ahead and die, you probably aren't all that necessary anyway?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250709

Patsi,

Do you mean to tell me that you are looking forward to getting a government run, single payer insurance plan? :-)

"Do you mean to tell me that you are looking forward to getting a government run, single payer insurance plan? :-)"

You bettcher butt! :)

Just saw another of those "Pants On Fire" lying, weasely "60plus.org" commercials. You would think they would shrivel in shame for perpetuating that garbage. Talk about selling your soul? These guys are so low on the totem pole that even the devil only bid ten cents for an already damaged product.

the only types of mail that are delivered at a loss are periodicals (think weight, volume and low postage cost here) - and the big cahuna is outside country - and registered mail (although it is a drop in the bucket). Mail deliver costs money, and scaling it back would save some of that money - frankly, I could do with deliveries 3 days a week. The USPS presents caost and revenue anlyses to Congress every year, and they are posted on the website.

http://www.usps.com/financials/cra/welcome.htm

There is an answer - charge what it costs for the delivery of items that cost them more to deliver than they charge for delivery.

TiR comes up with an implausible depiction of Jamie's proposal. Sophomoric comes to mind - but then talking points usually are.

Lunch

Watching the townhalls is very disappointing. There are so many lunatics in America.

It wouldn't be so troubling if I didn't run into seemingly sane people spouting the same ignorance.

A strong public option is absolutely essential for the control of health costs. Without it, everything is window dressing.

The basic fact is that most Reublican elected officials don't want health reform. Their main interest is to protect the bloated, immoral, forprofit health care industry.

Patsi,

This is for you...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/betty-white-i-have-a-thin_n_257270.html

Hawking defends UK health care:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4011629

ROFL, Bear! "Haven't seen them this mad since we cancelled Taco Tuesday." She's priceless.

Thought for the day :
" Too much of a good thing is wonderful. "

World population projected to reach 7 billion next year

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/08/12/world.population/

Lunch first but:

COMMENT: MONEY MATTERS
China puts people before banks

China is one economy where there is no disconnect between the financial and normal world [GETTY]

Samah El-Shahat, Al Jazeera's resident economist, writes a regular column analysing key elements that have contributed to the global financial downturn and its impact across the world.

China hasn't allowed its banking sector to become so powerful

The one question that isn't going away this global recession, is whether China can save the world.

But before we go running to Beijing, hat in hand, demanding assistance or else, there are some home truths that need to be considered first.

China is a developing country, with a per capita income of $4,000, which is much closer to those of African economies than to the US per capita income at $39,000, and $33,000 in Europe.

China has 130 million people who still live in absolute poverty, and even electricity hasn't made it every household yet.

So why should China be asked to save anyone but itself right now?

China: Special Report

In fact, as Michael Pettis, a professor at Peking University's Guanghua School of Management says, China's consumption was about the equivalent of France's last year, but no one is calling on Paris to save the world.

The crisis, though, has exposed and clearly magnified the fault lines in China's emerging economy of 1.3 billion people.

The Asian giant needs to nurture its own domestic demand, so that when the export market goes sick, like it has in this Great Recession, it doesn't drag China down with it.

But making her people spend more than they save is harder said than done. After all, less than a generation ago the Chinese were so poor that hunger was the accepted norm in their daily lives.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/chinabuystheworld/2009/08/200981084418740760.html

Carramba, U beat me to it.!

"Teabaggers," "Birthers," "Townbrawlers." The GOP is building an army of gun-carrying extreme right-wing crazies for use during the election of 2010.

I don't think the GOP is just going to do a traditional "get-out-the-vote" campaign next year. I think they are planning to disrupt polling places, challenge the legitimacy of the election results, and the electoral system itself, with armed thugs.

It sounds a bit nuts to suggest it, but I really do think the GOP is trying to precipitate an armed rebellion, a 21st century Civil War. If you don't believe me, just listen to Fox news for a couple of days. The warning signs are there.

You know, after reading all the reasons NOT to have private options and Health Care Reform, I think I can honestly say that I want to join forces with these people. After all, why should I have to pay for my health care and then have to pay for their health care too? I don’t care that the economy caused them to lose what minimum wage job they had. They weren’t that productive anyway. I have mine so, I think we just need to ship them off the France. It is, after all, the Christian Way. Like the woman said the other day in the Town Hall Meeting, “I want my country back.” I would also add that I don’t like having a black man as the President of the USA. It is just not the natural way we do things in the USA. Besides, this is gonna cost way more than we can afford. I mean, President Bush had to hide the cost of the Liberation of Iraq and the Vanquishing of Al Queda off budget so as not to traumatize the people that have depended on him and his people to protect us from the horrors of terror on the Homeland. Removing my shoes before I get on an airplane is not too much to ask the flying public. I could go on.

Rebellious Renee: I'm glad to see you're enjoying the summer sales season.

If we replaced all 100 U.S. senators with any 100 craftworker/artists chosen at random, we'd probably be much better off.

Danger;
At work last night, I arrived in the middle of a discussion before hours, on the health care plan. One right wing ideologue, and about 3 or 4 participants(excluding myself). Before it was over, two young, impressionable guys were ready to take up arms.

This is a very well-orchestrated campaign of disinformation.

Especially since my 'work' involves taking people out to see historic "Fort Sumter' nightly, where the first big fiasco started...

China surpassed Japan as the world's biggest holder of US government debt, to the tune of $800 billion.

But when Timothy Geithner, US treasury secretary, later attempted the same line on an audience at Beijing University, he was met with laughter.

Such a reaction comes as no surprise to Robert Scott, a US trade economist.

"The US is spending 4 to 6 per cent more of GDP than we've been earning from exports," said Scott.

"And we have to pay for that by borrowing."

Fearing dollar devaluation

As the Obama administration tries to spend its way out of recession, the treasury has been forced to come hat in hand to China for more loans.

In the process, the US has increased its debt to Beijing by 50 per cent in just the past year.

Chinese officials have made clear they are nervous about the deepening US debt, despite Washington's assurances that it will pull in its belt once the economy recovers.

If, as feared, a rush of inflation accompanies economic revival, China's dollar holdings will be worth much less.

But China isn't likely to be selling off its huge US debt portfolio anytime soon.

"They have to hold on to those dollars," said Scott. "Otherwise the dollar is going to fall. You would see an excess of dollars on the world market."

To get a picture of how China amasses the huge pile of dollars it lends back, just walk into any large US store, crammed with goods made in China.

Chinese goods

The US is likely to continue to buy Chinese products despite the financial crisis [AFP]
For example, one in every eight Chinese exports to the US can be found at Wal-Mart, the world's largest retail chain.

And though US shoppers have been forced to curb their consuming habits, they still flock to Wal-Mart for its low prices.

At a Wal-Mart store in Maryland, a few kilometres outside Washington, a random survey of middle-class shoppers revealed widespread awareness that their dollars are stuffing China's coffers.

Yet none said they would stop buying Chinese goods, as long as the price is right.

"Prices are a big consideration for my family," said Melissa Regan, "so often I need to find the best bargain for us."

Congress has stipulated that the $787 billion economic stimulus programme aimed at saving or creating millions of jobs in the domestic economy be exclusively spent on US-made goods.

It is a requirement that China has called protectionist "poison" to global economic recovery.

But there is a potentially gaping loophole to that "Buy America" provision; it no longer applies if it violates existing international trade agreements.

As a result, as part of its economic recovery programe, the US is likely to continue buying Chinese steel, iron and other products.

"Buy China" continued at http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/chinabuystheworld/2009/08/200981154653939971.html

When I first saw this I immediately thought of the modern American Right.

Zombie Ants Controlled by Fungus

http://www.livescience.com/animals/090812-ant-fungus.html

Patsi,

Thx for the heads up on that Slate article. Good read. Personally I believe he has a good take on the topic especially on the history leading up to where "we" are today..I didn't find any thing to criticize.

I, for one (cynical yet naive), had higher hopes for our new found wealth given the lack of discretionary monies tribes screamed about throughout my life. Initially there were efforts to recapture things we had lost as a subjugated people and while I suppose there's been an enrichment, I see the next generations as not much different than their non-Indian peers. Just a bunch of descendants blending into the old melting pot.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250724

CBob

Bit scary when you realize that it has more than doubled in my lifetime and will be a third as much again in 20 years.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250727

Be careful Nash or they will think you're crazy like I am.

And yes they are pushing for a civil war. Also if you act like your guilty of something you just won't be removing your shoes at the airport, they'll be doing full body cavity searches on you as well.

Nash, the remarks are just so over the top. You had Democratic activists, even ACORN which was shown pushing the Democrats during their registration drive, pushing the Liberal rolls up. Did the Republicans respond the way you are responding?

I went to Democratic rallies in NYC and they were not pretty. H have heard many Liberal friends say the worst sort of things about Republicans and predicting over the last eight years we would all be in internment camps by now. We heard how Bush had destroyed the Constitution and MoveON took out a full page ad to call General Patraeus a treasonous traitor. On what planet did we steal Iraqi oil? In fact, Democratic disorder has seriously damaged our options regarding national security.

First, I do not always agree with FP as they were resoundingly refuted in their recent spin that we are losing Afghanistan. They take strange positions at times. In any case here is their take on using sanctions regarding gasoline towards Iran. What the article points out that the time for this pressure has passed. Iran has managed to slip past the point where tough sanctions Bush advocated can do much good.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/08/11/the_new_iran_sanctions_worse_than_the_old_ones

Had Democrats not so vilified everything Bush, we could have exerted mr peaceful yet firm actions on getting Iran to blink. What we need to do now is to immediately stop all those allied countries AND OUR OWN, from helping or trading with Iran. Instead this administration appears to seek all the time Iran needs to give us the finger and push on. Democrats generated such opposition to anything Bush, it damaged our ability to thwart Iran.

So you can denounce Republicans as much as you want. It under a Democratic government that serious threshold will be broken because when Democrats were the majority they attacked the GOP daily with claims of totalitarianism, unbridled greed (oh sweet Jefferson), inhumanity, criminality, megalomania, terrorism, treason and abject stupidity.

Now you cry that Republicans are going to attempt a civil war armed with guns. This further distracts us as a Nation from objective analysis of the results of present policies or even plotting out a realistic strategy that takes into account the real spectrum of political sentiment in America. Having vilified the GOP beyond civility for eight years, some seem set upon extending this tactic in time perhaps hoping that the weakness within, is masked in the paranoia of the other.

One Union rep told me today in NYC that if healthcare isn't an obligation to provide by business, why would Unions support efforts to decrease the good coverage they have now?

As far as Hooty, let us be clear ( also completely endorse the following)

1. providing basic coverage for the legally uninsured would be largely offset by the cost of using the ER.

2. providing negotiating pools for self-employed, owners and small business would drop their rates.

3. extracting much of the 1.2 trillion in medical waste along with dealing with Big Pharm (no Obama sweet deal) would generate sufficient revenue to cap and lower costs.

4. providing a insurer's bill of rights would promote portability, protect quality and privacy, eliminate pre-existing condition bans, and promote inter State competition between insurance providers.

This is similar to Hillary's concept. Nowhere does government run healthcare. If she were President, I suspect she would provide her blue print outlining what she would claim American's largely voted for. She would give Congress time to come up with a bill that matches in substance while she created a bipartisan oversight committee to keep an eye on lobbyists, secret deals or serious roadblocks. It would be hands on and she could outline the details of her plan and press Americans to push for passage with her promise any Congressional Bill will be vetted by her bipartisan committee and the CBO.

She would be politically savvy enough to start with a transparent effort to show COST, coverage details and how the government is NOT going to run healthcare. In other words, given her majority, she would so far out in front of the GOP< she would have avoided this mess.

Many Liberals are angry that this administration having bungled the Stimulus to a large degree (check the polls out people) and dropped the ball on energy infuriating Blue Dogs, the O-team not chastened by foreign policy setbacks or poll numbers plowed right into another lame strategy. It is exactly what so many Hillary supporters predicted would happen. You need toughness, killer instincts, experience, shrewdness, moderate political views, an unprecedented desire to succeed and the ability to show emotion and flaws rather than a contrived and constant pitch which over time becomes one dimensional.

Watching Hillary verbally bitch slap that African student yesterday was quite refreshing. No matter the translator failed. Hillary didn't know that. To have such high favorability and still be such a bitch is a mark of a true Statesperson. After failing to answer a question fifteen times, Obama can't expect to keep credibility high. There is still time to regroup, but Obama might prove to be as stubborn as Bush, in much the detrimental way.
Bill Clinton on the other hand would have absorbed the opposition like the Borg instead of telling them they are irrelevant. Instead he created a dynamic that could pressure HIS side of the equation into a bill that both sides could claim they helped create and at the same time share in the responsibility no matter the consequence down the road. That appears to be the difference between Clintonesque reform and Obamian “change”.

"Also if you act like your guilty of something you just won't be removing your shoes at the airport, they'll be doing full body cavity searches on you as well."

Nash you have found good company. Be careful.

Anon, who is "they" above? Shall I remind Nash that you predicted the BUsh created Fourth Reich in America for the last eight years including a burning of the Constitution. You have as much credibility as Hamas claiming they are for peace.

But wait, I'll give you a good laugh before I go back to work from the lunch break I missed writing this stuff....

http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

Max -
Your doing the ole, ' " both sides do it " thing . Would be believable if your guys didn't shoot - up churches , or cops every few months.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250728

HD, you are in fine form. LMAO

Oh dear. This is affirmatively noplace today for a peaceable music-lovin' librul to hang out. So I'll leave you with this bluesy little gem from the late incomparable Clyde Julian "Red" Foley (1910-1968)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGuxUCkjMxo

and back out. Slowly. :)

“I want my country back.” I would also add that I don’t like having a black man as the President of the USA. It is just not the natural way we do things in the USA.

HD...you nailed it! All along I have suspected that the upset with the country is about have Obama as prez. First of all, he wasn't even born here! And then it unravels from there.....

What upsets me more is that there are an incredible amount of stupid people with way too much money and time on their hands!

"This further distracts us as a Nation from objective analysis of the results of present policies or even plotting out a realistic strategy that takes into account the real spectrum of political sentiment in America."

Max, in what universe is what is happening in the town hall meetings "objective analysis" or "plotting out a realistic strategy that takes into account the real spectrum of political sentiment in America"? Whaddabunchabooshit.

Yesterday, Tea Party Patriots national coordinator Jenny Beth Martin sent an email, obtained by TPMmuckraker, to a Tea Party google group. Martin told the group: "We have a media request for an event this week that will have lots of energy and lots of anger. This is for CNBC."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/email_tea_baggers_hoping_for_riot_at_rep_scotts_to.php?ref=fpa

BW, as long as those stupid people spend their money on efforts that do harm to the Republican party through this all too transparent effort to prevent debate on what should be one of the most important topics addressed by our government, I say go for it.

I just got off the phone with my homeowners insurance and it should be an example as to "why" we shouldn't trust insurance companies. My premium went up 28% from last year. I had called once to review and was told I could drop some coverages. So, I called today to go ahead and drop some optional coverages. In doing so, I received a call back to tell that there was a system rate error and I actually owed $4. less than last year. My concern? I pay for insurance outside of a mortgage. Since these rates are usually passed along to the mortgage company, many are getting overcharged without even a concern. No one cares and I doubt if there is a proactive outreach to make sure all customers did get the correct rating from the insurance company.

NP, before I depart, I am not a Bush apologist. He did however, come into office as the economy went down, much to do with the witch hunt/adultery of Bill Clinton that clearly caused him to drop the ball. An example: administration handling of both Chinese agreements to our telecoms and the strategy for promoting 3G networks here in America. There was little regulation of the disinformation the old guard spun on MSNBC regarding Qualcomm and others. There was virtually nothing done on the regulatory front.

Still, Bush had to deal with recession and 9/11. The Republican tax cut was done before the recession was full blown and when it became obvious Bush claimed the opposite logic. Instead of Nash's theorum of taxing when doing well, Bush switched it up and claimed lower taxes would help a down economy. Of course Bush had originally sought to lower taxes on an economy that appeared to be doing rather well.

Unfortuately, Obama predictions if not borne out will create tax hikes way before the economy is up to speed. The media had a chance to vet some of Obama's economic assumptions during his debates, but chose then to provide partisan cover rather than to serve the people's interests.

Bush clung to the only positive during his terms which was housing and the Democrats rarely raised a flag nor did they over the banking situation related to housing's toxic accounts.

So my initial objection with you was simply that you placed the blame all of the Republicans. You also stated the partisan differences in black and white when nuance makes more sense.

I was very troubled by Bush's handling of the economy, being more the Clintonista. New York has never been the same after 9/11. Still, that does not mean I will follow the Democrats like a good sheep. And despite Obama giving his stump speeches, Democrats don't help the cause by claiming dailiy their intention to create a totally government run healthcare system converted into a non profit fanatasy.

My wish is that doctors trump insurance companies when several doctors support a doctor's recommendation regarding a procedure. There are ways to control waste and greed short of the track record and seasonal variation of those controlling government. Of course this debate pretty much ignores the State's role, but my basic recommendations which are not to far from Hillary's are above.

Lat, since Republicans have little present political power, only the blind could have missed the GOP tactics coming. The more prudent approach I have advocated at TM would have taken away their only card. Now it is rather late in the game and Democrats should point to themselves rather than hysterics over gun-toting conservatives, no matter the neanderthal image they often convey. Never underestimate your adversary and Ahmadinejad must be laughing all the way to his doctor's visit.

Blondie, when Verizon offer new plans with better rates, they don't call to inform me. I must call and then they will give me a better rate. It should be clear that no matter who runs healthcare one must check bills, coverage and payment records every month. Medicaid/Medicare is replete with problems and I have friends with some horror stories regarding the VA.

Have you considered the call that will come about your rates after Obama's plan becomes law? What makes you think you have a new certainity under a new plan? My sister said Duval/Romney plan in MAss is not something many Americans would feel protected by. It is an option for those with little funds. Most who have money stay in the private realm.

http://iowaindependent.com/18456/grassley-government-shouldnt-decide-when-to-pull-the-plug-on-grandma

http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/895431.html

You gotta love it when a Republican Senator calls another Republican Senator and an ex governor nuts and liars. Living wills and counseling about them are death panels? Really? I believe that there are statutes in all 50 states requiring that they be presented to patients as an option. But if it's done at the FEDERAL level, and the folks who counsel people - who voluntarily undergo that process - can actually get paid to do so, then it's BAD, BAD, BAD. Whaddabunchofmaroons.

Max...I am talking insurance, not phone service. Big difference.

My guys Bob? More likely in your part of the country not mine. You also might find that most of the "converts" to the terrorist side were fairly radical Lefties before taking up jihad and we won't even go into the crime this country is subject to by a precentage of illegals clearly in the Democratic camp.

Of course Democrats are far more cosy with rappers who often promote peace, love, repect and non violence.

Professor John David Lewis of Duke University, on the Obama Health Care.

http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm

Blondie try DMV. About the only group that has been accurate in billing and appears to be looking out for me has been the IRS and Amex. Still, people must accept personal repsonisbility in this day and age no matter the source. You might be quite upset if your new healthcare resembles in service the Post office which our President used as an anology as opposed to the phone company,

rate du jour insurance

Who knew? How French of the insurance companies!

max, I agree with about 80% of your 2:01 post. I won't niggle over the shades of gray in the middle - they result from the black and white at the extreme ends. But I do acknowledge that for purposes of discussion here, I choose to look at the more extreme positions to clarify where folks stand on the issues. I'll tell you where I see the biggest differences in the parties - the Dems are controlled by the centrists and moderates in the party where the Reps are controlled by the extremists and RWers. In one respect, the Reps have a stronger party because they take harder positions. Of course on the other hand, the Dems have a bigger party by taking positions that aren't at the ends of the spectrum. (And I realize that Reps will have a different view of this).

Now if you could just convince the lunatic fringe to sit down, shut up, listen and ask questions instead of trying to cut off any explanation of the plans under consideration, we might actually see something akin to civilized discourse occur in the healthcare reform debate.

max...it is a booger to negotiate when you are sick. Have you tried it? My hubby was/is so stressed about cancer they were trying to give him a heart attack to take his mind off of the $43,000 hospital bill (and we have insurance).

Now this is RFLMAO funny.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/michele-bachmanns-son-joi_n_257498.html

Maxtrue: Can't you make your comments a little more concise? Those HUGE blocks of text are a real turn-off.

This reminds me of the story about how no one in Cuba actually listened to Castro's 4-hour radio speeches, except the most fanatical party members.

You could change your name to "minitrue."

More of our interference resulting in bs. comcast.net news:

Somali Insurgency Buying Arms US Gave to Government
State Department's "Tons of Arms" Being Sold at Market

In June, the US State Department went public with the revelation that it has provided nearly 40 tons of arms to the ever-floundering Somali government to combat the al-Shabaab insurgency. Last week Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pledged to double the supply to 80 tons after a meeting with Somali President Ahmed.

At the same time, the US has threatened a series of sanctions and at one point a military invasion to the nearby nation of Eritrea, which it has accused of supplying weapons to the al-Shabaab insurgency. Eritrea has denied supplying the weapons though it has been backing various groups opposed to the self-proclaimed Somali government.

But if Eritrea isn’t supplying the al-Shabaab with weapons, where are they getting them all? The answer, it seems is much simpler. According to traders at Mogadishu’s Cirtoogte Market, Somali forces routinely bring the light arms provided to them by the US government to the market and sell them to traders, who turn around and sell them to the insurgency at a tidy profit.

As the largest weapons exporter in the world, it seems inevitable that the US would at some point find itself arming both sides of many conflicts. In this case, however, it seems to be not a deliberate policy decision but rather a function of shipping “tons” of free weapons to a war torn nation and just assuming it would somehow create legitimacy out of a government that appointed itself in a Kenyan soccer stadium.

For any of you who want it, DCCC has a Health Care Fact Check Card re: some of the myths being spread about the health care plans.

http://dccc.org/blog/archives/palins_disgusting_attack/#When:15:20:29Z

Click on the link at the bottom of the page - it takes you to a page that asks for a donation, but at the top of the page is a link to the card, which you can print. (This is less than clear, but you'll muddle through)

"Maxtrue: Can't you make your comments a little more concise? Those HUGE blocks of text are a real turn-off."

Posted by: Nash2.0 Author Profile Page | August 12, 2009 2:26 PM

That IS him being concise. The dude's got a lot of shit to say.

Good new, though, Max; Nash was either turned-on at one point, or open to the possibility...

Geico joins list of sponsors deserting Glen Beck's nutcase hour.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/geico-pulls-its-ads-from_b_256724.html

I guess Beck's plan to become the next Rush by trying to outdo Rush in the "I've completely lost my mind" category isn't working out so well. Shall we all tune in to Fox to see this decried as censorship? SEems to me it's the market, stupid.

Latest hot stuff from "HuffPo"

* Palin's getting divorced (says supermarket tabloid)

* "Socialist" is the new GOP code for the "N-word"

If you've never looked at Huffingtonpost.com, check it out. Their "Politics" page is excellent. So are the "Media" and "Entertainment" pages.

*Britney's on a new diet. (Veggies & meth?)

*Lou Dobbs wants to "drive a stake through the heart" of Howard Dean. (Or maybe it's a "steak.")

pogo...hubby and I watched Beck yesterday...forget the double chin...I spotted a third! And this dude has a chalk board with charts and phony experts nodding while his chins quiver. I would love to see his lipid profile!

Posted by: whskyjack | August 12, 2009 8:25 AM :
" the house is on fire and you are worried about the water bill."

That comment rates an "Attaboy !" in Red, White, and Blue, with fireworks, and the Star Spangled Banner playing in the background.

The Penny-Wise-Pound Fools got us into a
$4TR!LL!ON hole during the Savings and Loan Fiasco. They will have dug another $4TR!LL!ON hole for us by the time we finish paying for their Gulf Fiasco II in 2083. Their Wall Street deregulation led to the Enron, World Com, etc disaster that cost investors $5 TR!LL!ON. Their failure to protect Southern Louisiana & New Orleans cost $1.5 TR!LL!ON and 1,000 lives. Their failure to harden airliner cockpits in 2001 cost $2 TR!LL!ON and 3,000 lives. And, their continued Wall Street deregulation has so far cost us $1.6 TR!LL!ON and 10 M!LL!ON jobs.

Now the Tril Mix resident republicans are worried that President Obama might spend a buck.

Pogo,
Are you serious? Going to the DCCC for a fact check is like going to the Limbaugh Letter for a fact check......

I got a better idea....why don't you read the actual bill. I did with regards to my HSA and it is clear that my type of individual coverage will be killed. I'm just not sure yet whether it will be direct or indirect......so much for "you can keep your coverage if you like it"

dark-lord: Turn on, tune in...

...I can't remember the rest.

Don't you just hate it when the guy you hold up as an example against the health care proposals bitch slaps you?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/stephen-hawking-enters-us_n_257343.html

Well the health care zit of the American public has been popped and there is pus everywhere...especially in the public forum. Ewww...why did we wait so long for this?

The Republicans have their own "fact check" website

clusterfact.org

I don't know where this healthcare issue will end up but it has surely reinforced one thing for me.

Our elected officials are even less informed, less intelligent and significantly less trustworthy than I imagined.....

Posted by: Nash2.0 Author Profile Page | August 12, 2009 2:48 PM

Drop out! That's the most important part!

Jack,

For some reason, pogo believes because he is covered under his employer's health care plan, he is somehow immune to this gov't run health care plan. Unfortunately, he has got a surprise coming, as do most small businesses. The more sunshine this House Bill HR3200 is subjected to, the less likely it will ever become reality.

He's obese, sedentary, a type-A personality, & drug addicted.

I take comfort in the thought that most of the ininsured people in the USA will probably outlive Limbaugh.

jax, I post things I think will be of interest to people here. BTW, just which of the 5 points it refutes do you find incorrect?

Now which bill did you read? House or Senate? What paragraphs? You do understand that they are different and that any bill that comes out of conference won't be just like either of them don't you? If you can't tell from reading the bill whether your HSA (not much of a health plan, btw) and/or your individual coverage (is that just your HSA or an additional policiy?) will be killed directly or indirectly, how can you even say you can't keep it? I assume you mean that a tax deduction for deposits into it won't exist? If that's it, so what? Why should I pay for yor health plan? Newsflash - this is a bill to reform healthcare coverage in the US - not a bill to enable gizmos aimed at the wealthy to prosper.

dark-lord: Now I remember...
Turn on,
Tune In,
Sell out.

Nash,
Not much of stretch since 2/3 of the uninsured are under 34.

Solar?
You did it! Thank You!!!

Max!!! Please stop the blab, blab, blad! GET to the point! I think you "might" have something to say but you MUST learn to write!!!!!!

patsi...max would never survive on twitter

TruthinReality:

Excellent name, by the way. (That was irony.)

We (the Dems) have 60 votes in the Senate so the healthcare bill will pass. We're just arguing among ourselves about the details.

We'll let the Republicans know what's in it when it gets to Obama's desk.

Pogo,
Your ignorance has reached new heights today....I see....:)
My HSA covers any catastrophic illness over $5000.00 without limit and I cover the rest at the best medical facilites in the world without restriction. How do you figure it's not much of a health plan?

It is entirely self funded. How do figure that you pay into it?

A man who the police say entered a Unitarian Universalist church in Knoxville on Sunday and shot eight people, killing two, was motivated by a hatred for liberals and gays, Chief Sterling P. Owen IV of the Knoxville Police Department said Monday.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jul/27/knoxville-church-shooting-leaves-several-injured/

Nash,
Despite the promises, I suspect that's when we'll all get to read it........

Truth, you don't know shit about what I think or believe. I do not feel like I'm immune from whatever effects the healthcare reform that will occur will have on my employer's policy, the portion of my premium that I pay, my deductible or my co-pay. I'm hoping that the reforms will lessen what I and others who are fortunate enough to have employer-provided (in part) health plans pay to have that coverage. Even if it doesn't, and even if the passage of healthcare reform raises my taxes some to provide coverage for those who currently don't have it, so be it. It needs to be done and I support it. And Mrs. P, who is the consummate small employer, also supports it. See, we live in an area where a larger proportion of the people around here don't have insurance than your average area has, and all the hospital based healthcare here is provided by nonprofit hospitals, one of which I have very close ties to, and we see what effects uncompensated care has on healthcare for everyone served by those hospitals whether they have insurance or not. See, the current system forces those hospitals to provide care to anyonw who darkens the ED door and consequently to stretch what reimbursement dollars they do get well beyond what you would think you should get because you have a good healthcare policy. You don't seem to get that aspect of this problem.

No is not in my vocabulary.

Washington D.C., June 12, 2009. A supremacist opened fire on Wednesday, June 10, at the Washington DC´s Holocaust Memorial Museum and killed a security guard.

Jax

Your funny, your just like the old folks on medicare screaming they don't want a government run health care. But don't take away their medicare.

With your system you are screwed in 2 different directions.
Been there, done that.

Your choice is to either not use the health care system or pay fees 5 times that of my current insurance company.
Mean while you are paying out the ass for your workmans comp, most of it for injury expenses that a good health care system would cover

You are going to come out of this looking good and you are going to be bitching all the way.

LOL

Jack

Little-known provisions in the Dem's Healthcare Bill...
* Obama loyalty oath before any treatment
* Involuntary medical experiments
* Children over 6 don't need parental consent for tatoos
* Abortion permitted up to first day of Kindergarten
* Mandatory euthanasia those with sports injuries
* Sliding payment scale based on ideology

Wait, wait, no is not in vocabulary almost all of the time; don't get any funny ideas.!

Last month on May 31 st abortion provider Dr. George Tiller has been slain at his church in Wichita, Kansas and on April 4 the three police officers in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia have been killed.

Everyone needs to just turn off their goddamned TV.

Careful, Nash2.0,

the next thing you know foxtrue will be trying to convince you, and everyone else on the Trail, that you stand for something treasonous or criminous that you never dreamed of.

He will clobber you with links to blogs of dubious or worse merit, some of which don't even back up his preposterous theories. However, no matter what silliness you catch him perpetrating, it will always be all YOUR fault, because YOU are one of those extremist Obamanistic Librullz, while he is a Fair and Balanced Moderate.

Forewarned is fore armed. Good luck to you.

Jack,
I will agree with you on this......fortes fortuna adiuvat
(fortune favors the bold)

I will come out of this just fine.....the majority will suffer....some things never change.....:)

well.... I just had to take a peek in here this afternoon.... and am I glad I did...

Nash.... you naughty boy.... you're back and making me piss my pants again!
don't go worrying your head off about Max... we've all bitched at him for the length of his posts... he seems like a good guy.... just verbose. And oh yeah.... truthinreality used to be called frydaddy.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Like I said shooting up churches and killing policemen.

The modern America Right.

Cbob,
Don't know why.......but I expected better from you.....

Jax, my ignorance of your health plan is entirely of your making. You haven't provided any details. I have dealt with self-insured employers, self insured coverage above a limit covered by a commercial policy, self-insured policies You show me any provision in any healthcare bill that will preclude you from paying into an HSA or precluding you employer from doing so. I don't pay into an HSA - apparently you do or your employer does, so you have some underlying high-deductible ($5K in your case apparently) coverage. You may have to purchase a bare bones policy under the bill that ultimately comes out of conference - IF it requires universal coverage (although what discussion I've read on HSAs suggests that they and the underlying coverage likely would be considered coverage). You are apparently bullshitting us about reading the provisions in "the bill" that would kill you HSA since you didn't tell me which bill you read and what provisions in it you think would do that, so I'll ask again - which bill, which provisions?

But I'll have to look at it tomorrow 'cuz I gotta go - NOW.

....".the majority will suffer"

Jax

No more than they are under the current system where they are paying twice what the world is and getting worse results.

The system is broke

Jack

Pogo,
As usual......you're wrong. Read the sections covering Qualified Health Benefits Plan requirements and you'll see that HSA's don't meet the requirements........

Dont' expect you to.....just change the subject and attack the messenger......

Jack,
Only the gov't system is broke.......but you are right.....the rest will be as soon as they get their hands on it.....:)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250786

Knowing that should come in handy. :)

More bad news for GOP: Dow up 172 pts.

Tomorrow's "Wall Street Journal" headline,

"Obama Saves Capitalism"

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250790

Hahaha, too late!
.. and I'm sure youre a man of your word, right?

Tony,

Come and get you funny gal, Sal.

"Everyone needs to just turn off their goddamned TV."

Do you really think it would make a difference Champ?

I told you, it's too late. Tony can't help you now.

Coreen, Carol, We've got 'em. He'll be buyin' from now on.
All we have to do is ask. He 'can't' say no.

dlb,

If tv programs only displayed shills for Gold Bond Medicated Powder, Brittany Spears, and Budweiser, I would have no problem tossing the set out.

However, if I turn off my g'dam'd tv, how will I be able to watch NOW, with David Brancacchio and Maria Hinajosa ?

Or, see Hercule Poirot send the murderous insurance executive to the gallows ?

Or, watch Gwen Ifill ask complex questions of her Washington Week in Review colleagues ?

Sorry Jax

You've got it exactly backward.

The government part is working quite well

It is the private insurance in bed with the private delivery part that is the cluster fk
Ask Blond Wino
It is why you pay 5 time what my insurance company does for the same medical treatment.

Last month there was an article in the local paper where someone like you found out just how good that insurance policy was.
He had a heart attack The insurance company refused to pay for it.

Seems he forgot to mention that he had went to the doctor and had high blood pressure. It was easily controlled with diet and medication so no big deal except the insurance used it to deny medical coverage.

Where as my mother who has had problems with high blood pressure all her life went to the hospital with heart problems and the government run program
paid with out questioning. She got to see the doctors of her choice and stayed in the hospital of her choice.
And she is alive today because of government run health insurance.

Jack

ScienceDaily (Aug. 11, 2009) — For the fourth consecutive year, the U.S. was home to the fastest-growing wind power market in the world in 2008, according to a report released by the U.S. Department of Energy and prepared by Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab). Specifically, U.S. wind power capacity additions increased by 60 percent in 2008, representing a $16 billion investment in new wind projects.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150256.htm

Yeah, once I spit in my hand, and give the ol. winkle hand shake,it is good as gold, but like it say's in the rule book. Page 5 article 5. after the first request in English; the rest to be in Spanish. Hey I don't make the rules!

yeah...... but..... but.....

if I turn off my tv.... how will I know the really important things in life.... like....

what's the name of Paris Hilton new chichiuaua....
what kind of peanut butter does Lindsay Lohan buy....
who really killed Michael Jackson and where have they buried his money...
what does Sarah Palin think Russia sees from it's end....
and of course.... who will head the new death panels.....

Gotta run to a Board meeting.

The weather man is predicting a lot more hot air and bluster out of the South, accompanied by slippery slopes, clearing on Friday evening.

So, watch your step, everyone.

I'm moving to disqualify the part that is only in Spanish. That's discrimination!

Jack,
I don't know where you're getting 5 times the cost. I get the advantage of pricing for a full nationwide network by the largest health insurer in the country.

I also have the flexibilty of negotiating below their network rates as well. Which I do on every occasion. Over 70% of the time I get a better rate than the network rate.

I don't think that you understand how an HSA works. You get to use the network rates if you want but you can also negotiate directly with the doctor or dentist to lower the rate if you want.

No more girls that have their first name beginning with a C.

Chloe, Coreen, Carol= your Choking me over here!! and then we have one called Ivy, yeah as in poisinnnn

..."everyone" is all worked-up, it seems, over this stuff I would suppose they are seeing on TV, and as one who abstains from the viewing of such, I must say: ignorance really is bliss. It's been a nice summer.

I would like to gain a better understanding of all the proposals under consideration concerning possible "health-care" reform, but I don't want to kill anyone over it, or send people off to camps. Damn.

Jax -
Over dozen killed or wounded by right wing crazies in the last year, being egged on by the likes of Glenn Beck .

In museums, in churches,

Did you expect me not to notice ?

Oh, quit arguing. Here is what is going to happen.

Obama will cut a deal with Russia to administer State Run Health Care in the US. Putin will Czar of Death, deciding who lives and who dies.

lol

Hey Dark,
The bills proposals are in print easy to find.....incredibly boring reading so i just focused on what's important to me. My plan and my tax exposure.
So far neither is looking good for me personally.

All TV is showing is irate, uninformed citizens confronting uncomfortable, equally uninformed politicians.....:)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250820

Oh really? When you said "Here is what is going to happen"
I would have guessed the answer to be: NOTHING.

Cbob,
I expected you to have sense enough to realize that fringe crazies are everywhere.......I know......too much to ask.......sad though

It clouds all of your other good efforts....

Personally, I think the healthcare debate is energizing new outlets and individuals to really read what's coming out of Washington before it's passed.
I see that as a positive thing.

I think though that the legislature and administration will continue to try to fast track bills and get them passed before the media and public can scrutinize them

One more point, and then I really must stop:

Rush Limbaugh: a radio-nobody until he started making outrageous statements. Now is rich.

Sean Hannity: a radio-nobody until he started making outrageous statements. Now is rich.

Glenn Beck: a radio-nobody until he started making outrageous statements. Now is rich.

Hmmm... wait a second...

(insert outrageous statement intentionally-crafted to antagonize liberals here)

I'm gonna be rich!

Dark Lord you are funny. Yep, sometimes that is me trying to be concise. Nash, if you read my posts, I owe you a six pack....sorry for the verbiage.

Patsi, I will try. You know I try.........

NP, maybe closer than 80%. I have no control over either fringe, sorry. I see the FBI is investigating the swazsitka, but where the hell were they when anti-war paraded posters far worse? Anyway, I would love a reset along the lines I imagined Hillary would take. Atlantic was pretty tough on Obama's reset. Dingle calling preotesters the KKK is hardly the way to go.

Hey Tony, sorry to burst the bubble, but it was a start....

http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08/gms_volt_offers_amazing_mileage_but_at_what_cost.php

Volt is still not the answer, but a cheaper Volt and one perhaps running on diesel or cellulosic might do it. I hate to break it everyone, but hype is never the real thing whether in healthcare or for cars. Now a Volt for $20,000 might be a milestone. If we can funnel partisan hot air into the mix, maybe even 400 miles per gallon.

Dark,
Good point, you may be onto something...:)

How come the outrageous liberals antagonizing the conservatives aren't as rich? In fact are there any?

Olberman, Colbert, Mathews, Maher...

don't know what they make. Maybe Craig can tell us Jax

Max,
I would guess a pittance in comparison. Are any of them radio people?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250813

LMAO, Renee!!!!!

Damn, Amex tells me they are raising the apr on Blue for no fault of my own. They say they are pleased to announce I can go over my limit for NO FEE but further down they say to stay under present card limit.

Okay, now even Amex is screwing up. They do not even say in this letter how much the apr is going up.

As for healthcare, anyone here care to tell me if an individual policy that is very comphrehensive costing about $600 a month now with few deductibles will change how much after the Obama Plan? How will coverage change from the rather broad coverage I have now?

Oxford, Cigna, and other offer this HMO in NYS. And why would Obama not pool such policy holders into a negotiating group as there are more of us than work for IBM who enjoys a great rate?

JKax, nope. I don't think LIberals fare well on the radio except perhaps Stern.

Max

It was only 1/2% on our card but yeah I love the don't worry if you borrow too much we won't charge a fee.

lol
Jack

maxtrue: re: anti-war protestors (of the 1960s)

Once you start calling for a "revolution," you always get a few macho-agressive nuts. But the vast majority of anti-war protestors were (and still are) NON-VIOLENT.

The rightwingers we see today are NOT. Both their rhetoric and their behavior overtly promotes racism, violence, and a contempt for orderly democratic processes.

These people do not read Ghandi.

Of course it seems Amex would penalize us like others going over the limit, not with a fee but a permanent increase in apr.

Thanks for the heads up Jack...

One thing for sure , ....... since metal illness isn't covered in America.

The Right wing isn't going to be getting better any time soon.

Agreed Nash, but I stood next to many anti-war protesters and their bogus claims were sure to incite violence in some even more unbalanced. What they said pales beside what is reported from the mouth of conservatives.

Most I saw were a bit too stoned to be rather violent, but their words were far more nasty than what we see today on the right. I rather doubt the anti-war wing, 9/11ers and anarchists have read much Ghandi, but then Ghandi's inaction led directly to the mess we have today in Pakistan.

It would be political suicide for the GOP to fan violence. Complete and utter suicide and frankly, I am concerned about a false flag operation, even insitgated from outside this country.

I have ZERO tolerance for violence, though just look at cities following their sport team's victories. Anger has a way oy releasing no matter the cause...

Jax, are you being intentionally evasive? Are you talking about the House or Senate Bill? I'm not attacking the messenger (you?), I'm trying to read what you read to see if your take on it is correct, but for some reason you won't tell me which bill you are referring to. What bill number did you read? How hard is this question to answer?

CBob....
ROFL! I think your 4:51 should be the post of the decade....

One more note Nash,

-The violence by the Left at G-8 meetings? We do have gatherings that results in violence far more related to the Left than the Right.

Again the rampages that happen like the Puerto Rican Day parade some years back in NYC more often happen by more Liberal leaning than conservatives, though the hard core are scary and yes, McVeigh was Right, not Left.

"Most I saw were a bit too stoned to be rather violent, but their words were far more nasty than what we see today on the right." Maxuntrue

That statement is a pile of piffle

Jax

Michael Moore is doing well.

Rabble rousing left wing talk radio never recovered from the killing of what his name in Denver by rightwingers it just took all the fun out of irritating right wingers.
Pissing off lefties is safe.

BTW

Your health plan was not my experience the two years we were under such a system.
It cost me around 7 hundred dollars (tests and office vist,) everytime I wanted to see my doctor and he wanted me to come in every 3 months. most of that was for the blood workup.

With Blucross Bluesheild it comes in under $200. I can't see any doctor coming down from what BCBS pays my doctor.

Jack

Pogo,
The only actual bill prepared to be voted on is the house bill. It's the only one that I've seen any real analysis done on.I understand that there are several senate proposals out there but they change as the committees see fit. No use even reading them until something actually nears the senate floor.

"One thing for sure , ....... since metal illness isn't covered in America.

The Right wing isn't going to be getting better any time soon. "

Good thing that I was in the bathroom already, cos this would have made me go in my pants......very funny.! Thanks.

By MICHAEL GORMLEY, Associated Press Writer Michael Gormley, Associated Press Writer – 52 mins ago

ALBANY, N.Y. – A health insurer whose TV commercials promised "peace of mind" for just $5 a day must stop running the national ads and pay a fine of $700,000 after New York officials accused it of leaving patients only with huge hospital bills.

The American Medical and Life Insurance Co., advertising through an intermediary called Cinergy, marketed health insurance as a lower cost option for the uninsured and underinsured. It was pitched as costing just $5 a day, or the cost of a hamburger or pack of cigarettes.

In one ad, the narrator said the insurance is available "regardless of any pre-existing conditions," while the print on the screen stated "most pre-existing conditions accepted" and the fine print stated there is a six-month waiting period.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_re_us/us_health_insurer_fined

Jack,
My HSA is BCBS. $58.00 per visit. $88.00 is most I've ever spent for a specialist. ENT for one of my kids. Like I said. I negotiate with each doctor.

Just had son going away to college vacinnated for meningitis. $35.00 all in at GP. BCBS rate was $65.00.

KGC, I was there were you? Do you know how many people flooded into NYC with back packs looking for places to stay? I remember the convention not too far down my avenue. At times it reminded me of the 60s and not only were police too preoccupied to bust people for sneaking a puff, I saw many selling drugs. I saw Hamas blend right in with the anti-war. The first rally I went to saw posters supporting Saddam and depicting Bush as Hitler. And yes, many that I saw were kids, many stoned and not particularly what I think were terrorist threats.

Solar what a mistake not to include that in any public option,,,,lol

Bob, I hope they nail his ass, but then the recording industry nailed one college downloader the same amount.

Jack,

Had 2 kids on accutane this year. Derm visit each month was $68.00 and lab cost for bloodwork was $27.00/test.

Derm let me select the lab and I got 3 to price against each other. Price went from $135.00/test to $27.00.
It pays to shop.....

Does everyone know there are now flash cookies that get into our computer that temporary file deletes do not erase. Wired has a good story on that.

http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

no one thought that funny? Hell, its the ACLU.

Jax

I think you and I just showed the total fuckup nature of the private system. If my wife had be working for you I too would have loved the HSA system. But her employer was only interested giving a pretense of coverage. and with diabeties I am at the mercy of her employers choices, I can't afford health insurance on my own.

I have been quite happy with BCBS but I believe from my experience they are the exception.

Jack

This health care debate and all the town halls has gotten too angry and violent for my tastes. If I wanna see anger and violence, I'll watch a Red Sox game!

MY HMO policy covers everything but $25 co-pays for visits, $50 co-pay for ER, $500 co-pay for in hospital procedured, $75 co-pay for out-patient treatment, no dental or optical and all procedures recommended as necessary by doctors including lab work and tests. It is expensive per month and cover all major problems into the millions. How much will this go up, or will it be retracted as private insures don't want to offer this anymore?

When Obama addresses my options in hard numbers, then I will be less pissed. Right now, I have to make a lot to just pay for medical insurance. I would not want to have the Romney option he put in place in MAss. I end up paying more if sick.

Only when they play the Tigers....

3 labs?

goodness I remember when there was a choice of 2 labs the big one bought the little one out. now it is only the big one.

Jack

Jack,

Somewhere along the way...well before I was born we all let healthcare get taken away from us. Probably when our employers started offering it as a benefit.

We as a society stopped talking money with our healthcare providers. We'll argue over rates to have our lawn mowed but we just accept whatever rate we're told for a check-up.

It's been hard to change the way my wife and I deal with healthcare but now that we've switched. I don't think that we can go back.

That would be HR 3200. I looked at Sections 101 and 102 and don't have enough detail about your insurance coverage to begin to say whether I agree that under that bill it would not be viable. If someone has done an analysis of the qualified health care plans that I could look at, I'd love to - see, there will be questions about this from clients and others. I've looked at the Ways and Means Republican take on it, but haven't had time to digest it or figure out whether I agree. Wrong as usual? Kinda arrogant dontchathink?

Well, now I'm gone again.

Max,
If you're paying that kind of money an HSA is for you.

Why don't you approach your employer and ask them to add their portion of your healthcare payment to your salary.

Tell them that you'll take care of the policy yourself.

Pogo,
Arrogant.....now on that you're probably right.....see ya...:)

Ya know this whole lab thing is funny.

When I have a roof put on a house I get a contractor and he gets it done for an agreed price. I don't get into the price of nails or shingles or any of that.

If the roofing busness was run like the medical business I would never get anything done.

Jack

Jack,
I live in Houston, there's alot of healthcare infrastructure here......if you've gotta be sick this is a great town to be sick in......:)

Jack,
I agree the lab thing is stupid. The dermatologist should have been able to get that rate for me and offer me a single rate for the service..

Even the providers of healthcare are so dependent on insurance compnaies to handle things that none of them can offer a turn-key integrated service.

You oughta see how many different groups we have to negotiate with on a hospital visit.

Jax, I own my own S-corporation. Maybe what I need is an insurance specialist, but I was hoping this whole healthcare situation will be resolved one way or another before January when I will be getting a new carrier. I looked into HSA on line and it looked Greek to me. Right now a business plus one plan looks reasonable. Same coverage but for about $375 per month. I do incur some insurance requirements on my one worker (maybe my girl friend part time to do books and accounts). You can see why simplicty lacking really bothers me....

Max,
The HSA has worked well for my family and I. I admit it did have a bit of a learning curve. I was only the second person to ask my bank to handle an HSA account. They barely understood it and federal reporting requirements accompnaying it. The other guy was a dentist with 11 employees and he covers them all with HSA's.

It's a little more prevalent now but I agree still not well understood.

It looked so complicated Jax. I just wanted a simple we cover everything plan. I have grown used to EPOs during my life having gone amost 15 years after college with no insurance at all. Thank God for my genes. My problem is if something comes up I want to be covered and also it want great yearly exams so I head off problems.
The quality of doctors is great in NYC and so far only Empire has been a pain. I am worried Insurance companies can modify there coverage whenever they want. There is much reform I would like to see, but my experiance so far has been good quality and insurance providers while expensive, cover what they say they will cover. I don't want to change things as much as provide coverage security and pull back costs. It is a crime that insurance providers give better rates to a company than they do the pool of single business owners within a State, or even the self -employed which tend to be a healthy group.. The low income healthy New York plan does not even provide a medical check up every year, or MRI for joint problems. If that is anything like the public option, we will cry if private plans fold.

The world’s ocean surface temperature was the warmest on record for June, breaking the previous high mark set in 2005, according to a preliminary analysis by NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. Additionally, the combined average global land and ocean surface temperature for June was second-warmest on record. The global records began in 1880.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090717_juneglobalstats.html

NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS) has determined that July of 2009 was the second warmest July globally, since records were kept going back well over a hundred years.

The global land-ocean temperature anomaly for July 2009 was +.60 Celsius or +1.08 F. Only July of 1998 (a strong el nino year) was warmer.

http://global-warming.accuweather.com/2009/08/second_warmest_july_on_record.html

Max,
You're not alone. I think most prefer a simple cover everything plan. it's what we've all grown accustomed to.

Max, "that is very comphrehensive costing about $600 a month now with few deductibles will change how much after the Obama Plan? "

Don't know the answer, but did him say something to the effect that if there is no reform, then your costs would be triple by 2012 ??.' So, believe it or not.

Rez, I don't want fear to guide me. Obama promised to lower costs. Let him answer that question directly. If not then he is selling what? Fear?

And the public plans available now in some States are not very comprehensive. Obama has that nice government plan. He started off this whole road show a year ago with offering the Congressional plan to everyone. Don't you see his vague pitch and wiggling is producing doubt? Let us see that public option. Let him say what will happen to existing plans. Have him show us facts and accounting from the CBO to back it up. Until then, please don't bitch that people are very angry. Imagine buying a car without road testing it, seeing the contract and the specs. Frankly, Obama would be a bad used car salesman.

How do we not know the plan is not a lemon? Why should I trade in a good but expensive plan for a crappy plan that will cost in taxes, poorer service and waiting times. None of you have the answers which actually answers the big question. What is Obama really selling?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250863

Jax

My favorite story in this line is when I was suffering from a kidney stone.

Under that insurance plan I had to visit my primary doctor first. who ordered x rays and set me up with the first available urologist 3 weeks out.
Now I'm trying to pass a kidney stone the size of a dime, it ain't happening. but periodic bouts of intense pain are. So between the pain I get the x rays done.

the day before I get to see the urologist his office calls and says be sure to bring the x rays. Nobody ever gave me the x rays they were at my primary docs office.
So I call my primary docs office and they tell me they can't send the xrays I'm going to have to pick them up.
Now with a kidney stone you have good days and bad days. This was not one of my good days. My kidneys were screaming and I was hopped up on codeine and it wasn't doing a damn bit of good. These silly son of a bitches want me to drive across town.
What it came down to is if I didn't then it would be another three weeks before I could get any relief.

LOL
There is something to be said for having lived a wild youth. I know how to drive intoxicated and I did.

After it was all over ( and that would cover three more posts on the evils of the healthcare system.) I demanded my xrays back and have them stored in the closet..
I like the idea of having them there it was a upper body scan which gives a picture as I was at that time. who knows I may need it for comparison later. Makes me wish I had the rest of my medical records scattered across the world. But I want them in my closet not some insurance company's.

Jack

Who knew the ASS in Grassley would be so large?

Chuck the Fuck is really fomenting dissent about reform.

New York and Illinois posted some of the coolest summer averages in more than a hundred years.

Just spent the day getting some real good government run, single payer health care.

Unfortunately the sprained ankle that went with it wasn't quite as good, but I've got Vicoden. :-) Now to RICE (Rest, Ice, Compress, and Elevate)

My sympathies Jack....

My plan now removes such stones by a machine that crumbles them with sound. $15,000 for an operation. Both are covered with less than $600 in deductables.
Drugs have $25 co-pays. I could get a cheaper plan with greater deductibles, but if something happens it ends up costing more......

And what exactly is Obama doing to keep such good coverage he enjoys while keeping the cost down?

Yes RICE. I have done that....lol Two years to get rid of bad worker related tendenitis. I can now chin up and push up with zero pain. I did just that between posts here and work.

Be well Jamie

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250874

How did you sprain your ankle Jamie?
Good to know government run health care provides Vicoden. :)

Utah’s move to a four-day workweek has cut energy usage by 13 percent, according to The Associated Press.

The Utah workweek has been in place since last August, though the new figures — which apply to electricity and gas usage for 125 state-owned buildings — are for the first nine months of the program. State offices are closed on Fridays, and employees are expected to work 10 hours for the other four days of the week.

The state also estimates that employees saved $5 million to $6 million per year by cutting down on their commute.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/friday-closures-in-utah-yield-energy-savings/

Max

that was week 4 and 5, That machine doesn't work on kidney stones the size of a dime, which my urologist admitted after the fact, I'm assuming my insurance company insisted anyway.
Oh and week 6 and 7 they scheduled me for inpatient surgery where they went up through my dick to zap the stone. problem is the first machine they tried didn't work and neither did the second but doc billed for his time anyway
(God, Max, we are in the wrong business, if we did that we would find our picture on the nightly news consumer protection report, being chased down the street by reporters.)
The doc did do one interesting thing for me while I waited out weeks 8 and 9.
He had to put a stint in the tube coming down from the kidney to the bladder and decided it would be easier for him to just leave it for the next time
It was very irritating and if I move around much and us construction types don't move around much at all. the irritation made me want to urinate. Now if I tried to urinate the urine went back up the tube putting pressure on the kidney. So everytime I pissed it felt like someone grabbed the end of my dick and squeezed hard , punched me in the kidney and slapped my balls. Why the testicles hurt I have no idea except that they were just expressing irritation at problems so close to home.
One good thing I got from the urologist, demerol.

Jack

"Rez, I don't want fear to guide me"
Max, I don't mean to scare you but by several different measures, individual premiums and national health expenditures have been rising by at least 5-6% each year for the past decade. It is the belief by most HC experts that it will continue to do so in the future unless there are some health care reforms.

Hopefully your earning will increase by that much or more so as to cover those increases. I'm sure you will so you shouldn't sweat it!

Jack, TMI, Over-sharing :-)

Hey Rez- my email is kcowley at verizon dot net

But Rez

I'm getting old all my best stories involve healthcare.
Nobody believes the ones about sex.

Jack

Thx osh,

I'll drop you a line. Dear wife and I are headed up your direction (bahston) in mid Oct.

Okay, music for the PM from Doc Watson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS9oRdOfGDI

Posted by: Jamie | August 12, 2009 6:22 PM

OUCH!!!! Yep, RICE, and feel better soon.:)

Posted by: whskyjack | August 12, 2009 6:48 PM

Jack, my dad suffered from kidney stones most of my growing-up years. It got so we regarded his urologist as a member of the family. I'm pretty sure he had that same experience at least once, but he never described it in quite such graphic detail.:)

Posted by: Jamie | August 12, 2009 6:22 PM

Correction !!!!
Not Government Run unless it was the VA or Military... Government Paid...

BIG DIFF...

Jamie - But most important - Hope it is feeling better and just a sprain - which can be lots of Pain...

mort sahl was on imus in the nineties and talking about being old and suddenly single and one of his friends was trying to fix him up with a lady........the friend says, I want you to meet this lady.......she's great, and she's about six months divorced from this crazy urologist husband she had........Mort says, well, as old as I am I think it'd be better if you set me up with the urologist......"

I see you all had quite the lively day..............

Jack, most doctors here in NYC don't screw around. They have a way with getting insurance to do what they say. Maybe it is a regional thing with doctors here, big bread winners for the insurance companies. I wish you the best and don't get addicted to those pills...

Rez. listening to representitives from both sides on TV. it is clear my take is panning out to be the right analysis on what has happened. Many now are critical of Obama last night and his tactic in general.

Instead of getting into it again, just let me repeat. I want reform and the status quo right now is not good. I posted what I thought Hillary would have done, but regardless, it showed a rational pathway not followed by Democrats. This stupidity might just ruin the chances for reform and I will hold Democrats with the majority responsible for a foolish strategy, Obama in particular. Yes, the AARP endorsed a bill Obama doesn't even have. Not true says AARP.

My rage is not because I oppose the very prinicples Obama and HIllary stated during the campaign, but the absurd approach changed in the last few months dumped into a Congress that still has favorability ratings worse than Bush. Except for foreign policy, I lean more to Solar's view each day. Holy crap. Please look at my post above (the one where I number what a smart plan and approach would be.

As several Democrats told me today, Obama's record so far is rather poor. Instead of capitalizing on his positives, he has shown poor leadership in running most plans into the ground WITH NO REPUBLICAN OPPOSITION.

I am not shocked. I predicted that here during our sluggfest primary. I have no gloating about this. I have not given up on Obama or the Democrats. The Republicans are planless and reactionary. You can imagine my frustration. Maybe Craig might want to consider that as he takes aim this morning at Republican spending.

Craig, have you been drinking any kool aid?

"Has anyone noticed how stale the demagoguing is on both sides?
Totally 20th century.
How about some new demagoguery out there."

jack, how about some semigoguery? little more touchy feeely, warm and fuzzies to freshen the air.

"Semigoguery differs from demagoguery by a factor of about half: Your standard semigogue almost never makes a vicious or angry appeal to people's emotions, prejudices, and fears to win his case like a classic demagogue. He works his rhetorical magic in a softer fashion." [jack shafer, slate, 2000]

max.........are you SURE you're not god?

Max... Why did you expect anything from Obama who has done really nothing in his life other the having a great skill in communication and was plucked into the National Spot light by the MSM and Dem Machine.

Give Obama a Break - How can you expect leadership from someone that has never had real accountability in his life !!!

What is the old saying (other then that I have said the above many times) Get what you pay for?

Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa is stupid!

I'm spending family week at the beautiful Oregon Coast. Relatives from Washington, Washington , D.C.; California enjoying the beautiful publically owned beaches.

All beaches in the state are owned by the public thanks to Governor Oswald West at the start of the 20th century and two close friends, Democrat Bob Straub and Republican Tom McCall.

I still remember seeing Democrat Straub standing in an honored position next to the coffin of Republican McCall in the Capitol Rotunda in Salem.

Boy, have things changed for the worse.

"Hospitals have been put on alert about a group of new superbugs brought into the UK by patients returning home after surgery abroad,....
The virulent new strains of drug resistant bacteria, which are much harder for doctors to tackle than MRSA or Clostridium difficile, have killed two people and left 18 others seriously ill in 12 months."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/12/new-superbug-drug-resistant-mrsa

Rez- cool! Come on down, there's a room waiting for you both.

Sturg, if I was God, I would deposit $100,000 in all your bank accounts to pay for the best medical insurance for you and your families.

Then I would zap Obama into the leader we need at this moment.

Ping Pong, I suffer from no misconceptions about Obama. Nothing surprises me, but we all have learning curves. The pragmatic egoist must step up and try on another suit. JFK learned and so too I suspect Obama will learn. I hope he Tive's his last few major outings.

Take a good look at Republicans right now. I am not looking forward to their administering smart and coherent plans. Forgive me all, but Palin has about enough charisma and communication abilities to run a sporting goods store.

what we need is a little musical interlude in honor of all those big spending hypocrites. as you watch, picture the congress critters as the chorus singing to big insurance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG3VfKlfDEk

Patd, if reform dies, it will not because big insurance won, but that Democrats refused to organize themselves into an smart and effective instrument for reform. We decided this when we picked "change" over "reform" and said little as Obama and Pelosi announced their trajectory and arrogance. There is still time to "change" course and reset the effort. What we have seen so far is a kool aid drinking frenzy led by Pelosi, Reid and the O-team. The next few weeks and months will show us what Obama can learn on the job.

Christ, my typos even bother me....."it will not be because" "into a smart and effective".....

nash, thanks but no thanks on krugman. he whines too much for my taste. i'm more a niall ferguson groupie. here's his latest

"A runaway deficit may soon test Obama’s luck"
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c24385ce-85ef-11de-98de-00144feabdc0,dwp_uuid=81377dd2-0733-11de-9294-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

Sea,

Wow, What an offer! We're staying in the big city for a few days and then we thought we'd check out MV since we've never been there. Maybe on a Sat day/nite ?. Definitely want to plan on a few pints and go from there. I'll email about specifics and for best directions. We have friends in Hyde Park/Needam. Also we are going to CT (casino) Sunday.

"if reform dies, it will not because big insurance won"

max, who else but them has the most to win if reform dies? it is in their best interest to see it killed and they have plenty of contracts out to see that it happens.

max.....i'll take that hunnerd G's in small bills........and I'll be indebted to ya the rest of my life......no, really.......and I'd NEVER take it and, say, move to nova scotia or calgary or somewhere weird like that.........Never............

Obama has that nice government plan.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250870

I believe that Obama said that the plan he was on is the one his wife has or had at her job when he was in the Senate.

Now I don't know what him and his wife are covered under now but like he said if you like the plan you have you can keep it.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250875

I believe that it would be the same coverage that paid for the Dark Lord's {Cheney's} pacemaker.

...hey.

... what was that supposed to mean, anyway?

Things just keep getting stranger.
The lead headline on Drudge: 'AMERICAN ANGER'. I can't believe some of this stuff isn't real. It can't all be from just radical groups. There's a trend here.

pay big money you get all the anger you want........just like old joe kennedy was one of the prime movers behind prohibition.....after he'd lined up his suppliers and buyers, of course, for after booze was illegal.......the old boy made his money back and then some.....matter of fact the family still rakes it in..................not very complicated, really.........old joe found and funded his anti-alcohol groups until the congress heard the people and we wound up with very rich kennedys, illegal booze, and an underground army of latter-day romans.......not to mention the tunnels of Moose Jaw.............

Well yeah, Sturge. I'm sure angers for sale, just like everything else. But this health care anger is real. Are you saying that you don't see a trend?

I feel sorry for Obama. It didn't matter who was elected this time, it was a no win situation. It's a good thing someone young won, because he's going to need a lot of stamina. I think there really are a lot of angry people out there, as angry as I've ever seen since the Vietnam war.

.... and Champ, I'm seeing this anger and I don't watch TV anymore, ever.

health care anger real? real like santa claus, maybe.........what they're angry at is really that their pet clowns lost the elections.......they want their country back.....ie the last administration's 8 years in office.......

I dont feel sorry for obama........i feel sorry for republicans.

(Not really.)

Remember during the election, the media used to point out how America is split right down the middle. Well, I don't think things have gotten any better, maybe even worse.

... even you sound angry, Sturge.

it comes and goes........c'est la guerre.........

It's been over 4 months since I've had anything but rabbits ears and Network TV. Nothing much to watch there except PBS.

I have kicked my addiction to watching cable news all my waking hours when I'm at home. I'm a lot more mentally stable now but then I do have you guys to tell me what's happening and, of course, the Internet.

I don't have a clue what to think about this health care reform. It is definitely needed but I think it just must be done one step at a time, slowly and carefully.

And Chloe, all this anger does scare me also. It's being fueled by the RW radio/TV nuts and someone needs to spray them with some Thorazine.

LOL... and I mean it. I'm really laughing.

Hey Carol, I'm glad you're over here.
Those radio/TV nuts have been around for a long time. I know there promoting a lot of it, but there's some serious differences of opinion out there. And I don't see any compromises being made (all though I'm sure there are plenty of agreements being made behind the scenes).

It just seems silly to blame one side or the other. Wouldn't it be nice, if once the election is over, we could just all settle down on the same side. What a laugh for me to even say that.

It is definitely needed but I think it just must be done one step at a time, slowly and carefully.

-ct

well, now.....that's exactly the same advice wm faulkner tried to give martin luther king in a series of back and forth letters as king was rising as a leader of the civil rights movement.......what I've seen of the last 60 years is that slow and steady wins exactly nothing......one of craig's rules actually......nobody ever willingly gives up the power, it has to be taken from them...............

except for solon

"nobody ever willingly gives up the power, it has to be taken from them."

Exactly! Have you seen any signs of that being what Obama is doing Sturge?

Carol, Do you agree? That slow and steady wins nothing?

.... sorry about all the questions. I'm just trying to figure things out.

But Sturge no one will trust an overhaul when we don't know what we'll end up getting. Hey I don't even trust my side anymore. I no longer see it as the right against the left. I see it as the government against the rest of us. Both sides are getting money from these bigs companies.

I've Got a Golden Ticket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9sl9TWO0PI

It's ours, Charlie!

Actually, I do have an opinion.

Obama has shown few signs of power, and hasn't taken anything from anyone, imo.

And slow and steady works sometimes, but this isn't the time for it. If Obama isn't careful, the power will be taken from him next time. He's not acting like a fighter or risk taker. He's acting like someone who's going through the motions.

Sturg,

You are exactly right.! What gets me mad about Obama: Is that he doesn't know how to be a bully. That makes us guys from Chicago look bad you know. HA!.......wanna make somtinnnn outta it?

It could just end up being all a big show. They all end up with more money in their campaign funds/pockets and we end up with nada.

"I see it as the government against the rest of us."

Wow, I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing, seeing the government as the enemy.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250929

It's about time you showed up.

.... don't worry about it Solar. We all know you guys in Chicago are a bunch of bullies. (no emoticon necessary). Obama is obviously the exception to the rule.

Chloe,

Perfect timing, Obama: Right out of the box should have passed single payer; but he had to wait to get the right message from his corp buddies. I don't live in Chicago.......and my fav. pic is up now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

what have the romans done for us lately?

..... a lot of information packed in that post. Just the way I like 'em. I'm going over to take a look, to see if that picture is really there.

Beautiful! That was quick.

It is not that hard, once you break it down, and do one thing at a time.

I chatted with Rosie the Cat a little bit, she said that she was real busy, and will talk later.

Cool Solar, I she on Facebook?

I=is
Is she on facebook

I figure facebook is a good place to hang some pictures, and check in a couple or so times a day. It's also a good way to catch up with people you don't see that often. It has its uses. All and all, I like it.

nite Solar, Carol, Sturge.

Charlton Heston, says it all: When he said " from my cold dead hands" Sturg, I think that you are right: No one ever gave up power, you have to take it from them, and keep your own troops in line.

Sleep well,g- nite all.

Beautiful post Solar. You sleep well too.

Horatio also walked away from power, as did George Washington, Mohandas K. Gandhi, Gautama Buddha, Edward VIII, Little Turtle, and according to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus. So, perhaps the generalization is a trifle too general.

Regarding going slowly : Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator won by making delays. Of course, he was always pretty speedy when Hannibal Barca was chasing him.

However, the Cunctator wanted to restore the status quo ante, just as Bowmanc, the pong, and FriedDaddy do. The latter write that President Obama is both going too fast, and not getting anything done, that he is changing too much, and so everything is unchanged.

Chloe
I think people are angry because they have misinformation. No one is killing old people or denying treatments, at least no more than the insurance companies.

It is very hard to dispute this kind of myth. There are a multitude of studies that demonstrate even when people intellectually know the truth their emotions over ride and they believe the lie despite clear evidence.

XR, I stand corrected, don't throw that Jesus guy in there, too much there to argue about.

Chloe, of course this "anger" is not the creation of Republicans. That they will try and exploit it goes without saying. The Democrats once again misread the tea leaves and that was exactly why I advocated a prudent approach when I first learned of the O-team plan followed by Pelosi's threat to fast track it past Republican objections.

I suggest instead of falling back on the tired explanations of poll numbers (no Diebold has nothing to do with this...lol) that evil Republican money is stoking hatred, violence and revolution, we stop kidding ourselves and understand the political realities.

1. We were asked to swallow Stimulus one which Dodd and company refashioned and stamped with Democratic approaval.

2. We then were told of the sky falling and got pushed into Stimulus two and three only to find out many problems after the fact (who read the bills?) and to date unsupported claims of their effectiveness.

3. Obama then laid out his plans to immediately push through energy "change", healthcare "change" and regulatory "change".

4. Against this back drop rose the spector of continued unemployment, stock fluctuations, banking abuses, pork and climbing deficits. The energy push ran aground but Obama marched quickly into heathcare.

How Democrats allowed the present healthcare debate to become this kind of ugly battle reflects a rather complete denial of both American sentiment and expectations built up by a year of promises to deliver clear, transparent and bipartisan reform based on vetted numbers and policy details. There were many pundits warning of the dangers of continued Obama sales pitches, especially using analogies like the Post Office as an example of the government healthcare working along side private industry. This is a rather bad analogy, yes? And then our President went on to a partisan crowd to point out that private companies do a better job than the Post Office. This reminds me of the time in the Chicago debate were Obama told Union supporters how he wanted strong enforcement of work place regulation which he explained as fair wages and insurance coverage for all workers, but never advocated enforcing laws barring illegal workers in the workplace in the first place. The crowd applauded, but many later were quite confused.

How long can these flubs and transparent attempts to pitch rather than answer direct questions with facts go on is indicated by the backlash. When did Obama hear AARP had endorsed the heathcare bill that hjasn't been written?

To blame Republicans is to pretend the Democrats wouldn't do everything possible if they were in the same position. It ignores the failure of their own strategy. Americans now realize how close things came to passage before Blue Dogs pulled the plug sensing the backlash that would follow. Democrats know exactly what their tactics were for eight years. This is exactly why we saw so little leadership rejection of the uncivil behavior unleashed after the Iraq invasion.

So please let's regain our composure and recognize mistakes have consequences and that Democrats are better served by understanding the roughly equal division of political sentiment in this country. Republicans pushed down Democrats (even using fear at times) and they clawed their way back. Republicans will do the same thing. This is one reason the Clinton approach was more effective. Had not Monica ventured into the picture, Gore would have been President.

I think in general Clinton era shows a far better track record than those advising this President to unload all barrels as fast as he could. I think those people should be thrown under the bus. Clinton enjoyed good numbers because he appeared to reach across the line and brought Republicans in despite the nasty behavior that never stopped attacking him.

And there are many studies that show denial is a hard thing to recognize. Myths often work best in the absence of fact.

I guess non sequitur Thursday is now on Wednesday

Okay, Sturg, if I were GOD, I would grant you one wish as long as I don't find it demeaning or causing injury to any of my other creations.......

And yes, you have uncovered my divine presence. I, GOD, decided to have a conversation with my human children through the internet using a fictional character called Maxtrue who claims to live in New York City. I thought mispelling my HOLY words would throw you off my Heavenly ruse. But have seen my light.

With that my children have a good night.

Oh and KGC, only in your mind is it so......

There are two parts to this long post, and if I had the energy, I would split it and post wo times, but I don't have the energy. Also, I should have condensed esp the second part and been much more concise, but my brains is tired, and I did want to get these thoughts down on paper, so proceed at your own risk.

Slow and steady does win quite often. It may not always be the best plan, but it is wrong to say it wins nothing.

Among animals, those accepted as some of the most intelligent have gestational periods which are longer and slower such as whale and elephants - whales between 365 and 549 days, and elephants an average of 630 days. At he bottom of the scale is the wise and beloved rat at 21 days. The human body itself takes decades to mature and grow old. A mayfly takes one day to grow old and die.

Some things take time. Our own country has taken more than 200 years to evolve into what it is today, and it is still maturing and working to improve itself. If you think speed and haste are the answer, I invite you to inject yourself with oak cell cancer cells.

After several days of thinking re Hillary's trip, I have an idea to float. It starts with the question Fareed Zakaria asked her re the man who offered cattle for Chelsea.
I'm puzzled as to why he asked the question. It kinda makes fun of that man, or seems like a humorous statement. I felt a little sorry for that man who offered cattle for the person of the daughter of the most powerful man in the world. It doesn't make him look too smaart.

i can also see how it was an opportunity for Hillary to show she understands and respects different cultures throughout the world - or, conversely, to make an egotistical ass of herself by acting huffy. Hillary did just fine. I don't think Zakaria would have asked Bill that question - eeeyoo. If he had, I suspect Bill might have been more blunt, and said with his big smile, Ya
lnow, we don't sell any of our children in America. They make their own decisions.

My point is that I think it is important for us to understand and respect all other cultures, and it is equally important for those other cultures to understand and respect all other cultures, including ours. To achieve that, the message has to get thru the accumulation of centuries of of education, and to do so without much access to tv and radio.

I suspect that Hillary was subjected to quite a bit of muted condescension from the male dominated societies, and that's why she made such a strong
statement re her position and the treatment she should be accorded. I'm thrilled that she finally made it clear - deal with ME. I hope it surprised and chagrined a lot of the people invovled. If citizens are happy with their patriarchal societies, let them have at it. But basic laws of survival dictate that you have to realize realities - that there are women who are smarter and way more powerful than most/many/all men. This is a necessary fact to understand if you want to be involved inter-nationally - it was a small
lesson and won't change a lot immediately, but I'll bet some people learned something.

But even if unemployment is finally slowing down, the housing market remains awful. Foreclosures are significantly outpacing the administration's efforts to help troubled borrowers. The Treasury Department released a report last week indicating that only about 9% of the borrowers eligible for relief under the government's anti-foreclosure plan have actually received any aid—and even here the numbers are juiced to make the program look better. The administration only includes borrowers who are already at least two months behind on their mortgage payments in the group of eligible borrowers, when in fact any borrower in danger of "imminent default" is supposed to be eligible. Much of the problem, as I argue in a piece for Salon, is that the plan relies on private-sector debt collectors to identify distressed homeowners and get them help, something these companies have never been very interested in doing. All in all, just 235,247 borrowers have received assistance under the Obama plan, while foreclosures increased to 1.5 million in the first six months of 2009, with 2.4 million expected for the entire year and 9 million by 2012.

Writing for Mother Jones, Andy Kroll emphasizes that a much better policy option is available than the current tack. Rather than ask the banking industry to voluntarily adopt the administration's plan without any consequences, we should put "homeowners' fate in the hands of a neutral arbiter, like a bankruptcy court judge . . . [It] would go a long way toward stemming the tide of foreclosures," Kroll writes.

Thanks to a bizarre legal loophole, mortgages cannot be modified in a bankruptcy proceeding if the owner actually lives in the house (investment properties, on the other hand, can be written off). In other words, if a predatory loan is driving you bankrupt, a judge can't do anything about it in bankruptcy court. Congress has tried to change this rule a few times over the past year, but the bank lobby has stymied those efforts. The most recent legislative push failed overcome a Senate filibuster in April, but the political momentum may be changing as foreclosures get increasingly out of hand.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7121

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oRB8k-WEdk
unknown comic!

As I drift up into the clouds;

"Well said Bethyboo, well said"

Oh and KGC, as I said, these "facts" you posted contribute to the anger manifesting itself in the healthcare debate. Without a good track record, Americans take little on faith.

"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice..." -MLK Jr.

Late Night: Welcome to the Age of Ignoramus.
By: watertiger Wednesday August 12, 2009 8:00 pm

Been around the world and found
that only stupid people are breeding
the cretins cloning and feeding
and i don't even own a tv.

- "Flagpole Sitta"

The current health care reform "debate", such as it is, has certainly shone a halogen light on America's dirty little not-so-secret that we are a society dominated by illiterate, hate-filled, loudmouthed cretins. How else do you explain this statistic? ......."Survey finds Obama birthplace still an issue in N. Carolina
Raleigh News & Observer
Published: Wed, Aug. 12, 2009 07:11AM
Barely half of N.C. voters believe President Obama was born in the United States, according to a poll released Tuesday."
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/12/late-night-welcome-to-the-age-of-ignoramus/

There are more than 300 million people in the US. Even if only 20% are any combination of stupid, uninformed, racist or whatever comprises the angry right wing yammerers, that is 60 million people. Even if only 1% of those are upset enough to haul themselves to one of these town halls, that is 600,000.

No matter what you see on TV or how much it is hyped in blogs, websites, and papers, there are still 240 million people who disagree with them and even more than 59 million of their own kind who don't care enough to gro to a meeting.

24/7 TV often makes it seem as if these jerks have more power than they do. They only have as much power as we give them by thinking they are important.

OK - I am sick of the century-old healthcare debate. And I could do without the non-stop coverage of "Town Halls gone wild!!"

Can't some professor get arrested or something? How bout the Prez invites some of us trailmixers over for a beer summit (I'll bring the whisky ; )

Anyways, after hearing all the back and forth - here is what I think about healthcare.

Coverage:

Yes people - this is socialism. Get over it. It is about helping the people who can't afford health insurance.

It is about helping people who avoid the doctor for fear of losing their house. It is about helping people who get denied treatments by their insurance companies or kicked off when they get to sick.

The bill should take pains to make sure not to impact people who have insurance and are satisfied. Like most of those irate people in the town halls.

Obama should make clear what these measures are. And say he will not pass a bill without them.

The people that will be negatively impacted - those making upwards of $250K per year are not the ones screaming bloody murder.

Again - the Dems should agree that any cost of the bill will be covered by rolling back the Bush tax cuts. Obama and the Dem Leaders should come out with a unified position on this to end the confusion.

(And you know my position on taxing people who have seen their salaries skyrocket over the past decade another 1-2% more.)

Included in that measure will be a small business exemption. Which is pretty damn easy to write.

This tax increase will not apply to small businesses that file as individuals. Done.

Now back to the socialism thing. I know people will argue that this is not consistent with the Founding Fathers. Well guess what. The Founding Fathers did not live in the wealthiest Country in the world. They were pioneers and revolutionaries. And the United States civilization was at a different stage.

I don't think it should be a crime for the govt to attempt to design programs - especially ones that are paid for - to help out the disadvantaged.

This is not a novel concept. I would not be where I am without financial aid. And I don't think anyone is calling for the end to medicaid or social security. And the progressive tax system has been in place for a long time - and why the hell would we decide to end it at a point in history where CEO's are making $20 million a year (and so are ball players, actors, and musicians).

I am now thinking of trying out nonprofit co-ops before getting the govt involved. Especially since the public options means no GOP support and continued partisan rage. And likely political consequences for the Dems in 2010.

Insurance Reform:

-We need mandates.
-Portable plans
-No denial for pre-existing conditions

Costs:

If more people have insurance - and more people are paying - costs should come down.

And there should be pressure on hospitals to do this.

There should be savings on phamaceuticals and electronic records.

And insurance should give incentives for certain health characteristics - measured by regular check ups.

Tort Reform:

Pass legislation similar to what was passed - ironicall enough - to limit securities fraud lawsuits.

This would make it easier to dismiss frivolous malpractice suits at the beginning of the case.

And prevent costly discovery until a complaint survives a motion to dismiss.

But - the legislation should also make clear that unnecessary tests are not a defense to malpractice suits.

It occurs to me that Obama gave the medal of freedom to the woman who saddled us with w - grrrrrrrrrr!

Sea, Your 9:59 post re Hillary's "outburst" is just perfect. I just posted re the same thing before I read yours. I'm really glad she let the world know.

Btw - what is this nonsense re the founding fathers not wanting socialism?????????????????? The word isn't in the constitution, and for that matter, neither is capitalism. Capitalism, socialism, marxism, communism, yadayadayada - they are ALL economic theories. In a democracy, the citizens can choose whichever one they want - as long as they retain the power to vote on their government, it will remain a demmocracy.

The consitution doesn't mention the limitations of government as to helping citizens who need help.
This is kinda like anthropomorphism, except instead of granting powers to inanimate objects, these people are transferring their habits of thought to people who have been dead 200 years.

"But Rez I'm getting old all my best stories involve healthcare. Nobody believes the ones about sex."

LMAO@Jack! God, I missed you!!!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250967

Good thoughts, Jamie.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250974

Yep Patsi, he's just as good as he used to be!

Just got to remind everyone - And those so bright Representatives that ask the question..

Who has Medicare, Medicaide?
People Raise hands..
Do you want to keep it...
Of course...

Then they try to compare and connect this to what is being proposed..

WRONG -
that is just funding - that is NOT Government run and what Barack and Nancy are trying to push.

And some people fall for that stunt

sturge & ct, your comments on going whole hog or a step at a time reminded me of the quote "everything in moderation including moderation" which seems to cut that baby down the middle.

btw, can't get a reliable source for above quote which is attributed to socrates, oscar wilde or harvey steiman depending on where one looks and under which rock. anyone know?

kgc:

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/aug/11/mt-pleasant-big-basket-makers/

pat.....sounds to me mostly like something wilde would say......but I dont recall hearing that before.....thanks......

might be fun to haul out, try out, create analogies on how to get where we want to get on this health care/insurance reform stuff.

i'll go first.
it's like sailing. to go forward against the wind, patiently tack back and forth. but, then tacky is as tacky does.

but you can add Horace Porter to the list......

also aristotle according to wiki

"Moderation
Aristotle believed that every ethical virtue is an intermediate condition between excess and deficiency. For example, fear isn't bad in and of itself, it is just bad when felt to excess or deficiency. A courageous person judges that some dangers are worth facing and others not, the level of fear is appropriate to the circumstances. The coward flees at every danger, although the circumstances do not merit it. The rash person disregards all fear and dives into every danger no matter the consequences. Aristotle identifies the virtue as being the 'mean' of the situation. Thus, there is no way to form a strict set of rules that would solve every practical problem. "The virtuous person sees the truth in each case, being as it were a standard and measure of them."

This does not mean Aristotle believed in moral relativism, however. He set certain emotions (e.g., hate, envy, jealousy, spite, etc.) and certain actions (e.g., adultery, theft, murder, etc.) as being always wrong, regardless of the situation or the circumstances."

patd,
Got to have a good keel and hold that rudder strong

health reform is dying a slow and agonising death?

With the hysteria on display at the health
care town halls, would anyone be in the least bit surprised to learn that the chaos is being orchestrated by those most likely to suffer some loss by any real reform.

'Former exec: Insurers fomenting town hall chaos;

"A former health insurnace executive says the disruptions taking place at lawmakers' town halls around the country are the result of stealth efforts by health insurance companies.

Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA vp detailed what he said were past covert efforts by the industry. Though he said he does not have specifics for what is occuring now, because he's been out of the business for a year, it follows the same pattern."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/former-exec-insurers-fomenting-town-hall-chaos-2009-08-12.html

Did you know that liberals think conervatives are stupid and conservatives think liberals are stupid? Good Lord, all this bi-partisanship is not gonna get anything accomplished as far as health care is concerned! My question is: What the hell do the people on the right/far right want as far as healthcare coverage options? Because I think I know what liberals/the left want: Universal health care! But I'm clueless as to what all the angry people at the town hall meetings want. On a lighter note, I haven't tried to add any of the Trailmixers on Facebook because I wanted to make sure everyone was okay with being added before I actually tried to add them.

Barack and Pelosi Health Reform is like watching a Circus act clowns show up at your Operating Room to perform surgery

'Former exec: Insurers fomenting town hall chaos;

bingo

More Little-know provisions of the Dem Healthcare Bil

(1) Birth Panels: to decide who shall be born
(2) Segregated MD waiting rooms (blacks go first)
(3) Bernie Madoff can access to your bank account
(4) Legalization of marijuana
(5) Criminalization of tobacco
(6) Free care for illegals, if they register as Democrats
(7) Medical schools will teach Marxism
(8) Anyone who was at Woodstock: free care for life

Pinger: Meet Dr. Feelfine...... your gurney is ready..........

http://blog.bicyclism.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/smoking-bozo.jpg

Strug.. You always come through

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250977

Ah, Ping, such passion! And, so wrong headed. But, that's often the way it is when we view things passionately.

But, for the government to _provide_ healthcare would be a massive undertaking. I can just see the headlines, 'Uniformed Corps of the Public Health Service to be increased to 800,000! Administration proposes takeover of all publicly supported hospitals by the end of next month. Doctors and nurses to be drafted into the Public Health Service. No amnesty if they head to Mexico. Patients told to move to areas with excess beds. Republicans frothing at the mouth; doctors perplexed.'

How many times must I say that the working model for any proposed public involvement should be Medicare as supplemented by Tricare for Life. It works. And it has worked under both Republican and Democratic administrations. And the total bill is less than what it would be if the patients were shoved unto the economy.

Good morning, all.

European markets are up, so it will probably be another good day on Wall Street.

Meanwhile, on Mainstreet, right wing militia groups are buying fertilizer and fuel oil.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-12/santorum-is-dangerous/?cid=hp:mainpromo2

Santorum lurks....

Nash, I hope they go green by buying horse crap rather than a ammonia.

Poor dicky Dick. His shrub Bud isn't being nice to him Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/cheney-airs-grievances-with-bush/tell-all/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/world/africa/13clinton.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

"Clinton’s Flash of Pique in Congo"

"Later, her aides released the transcript of the question, as it had been translated to English from French, and further inspection of the audio recording of the event indicated that the translation was fine; the student had indeed said “Mr. Clinton.”

After the event, the student apologized to Mrs. Clinton, saying he had indeed meant to ask what Mr. Obama thought."

Let me just say this because the MSM won't.

The GOP is openly incting extremists to kill Obama and to seize power by force of arms.

This has gone WAY beyond political opposition. We may now be living in the last days of our republic.

Senor Sturgeon

Thanks for the link to the sweet grass basket makers story. It's a good one.

Very good column in today's Tennessean about the ugly reality of health care in this country.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090813/COLUMNIST0101/908130360/Column++Health-care+rants+won+t+help+friend+pay+stack+of+bills

sea, heads up. they're coming aug 23rd according to wapo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081203405.html?hpid=topnews

nash, you left out #9 provision of bill

guns banned in o.r.s

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250998

tony, glad to hear that it wasn't state dept emp'ee fault. was beginning to think these snafu's were on purpose. you know, rw conspiracy is alive and well

http://www.themastercrayonartist.com/shop/custItems.aspx?catID=8

don marco.......crayola artist

I suppose I shouldn't worry about the U.S. slipping into fascism.

Global warming will kill us all in 25 years or less.

Investment tip: 30-year bonds, not a good idea.

Rez- a few pints sound good to me! We've got a new irish pub in town too. Went there last night in fact, prowling for a new victim. there was this talented irishman singing there, he use to play with the chieftains and michael flatley. Tried my boldest line yet - "would you like to go see the phosphorescens?" It was intriguing to him, i'll have to keep that line.

Nash your comments are inflamatory, unsupported and embarrassing. Perhaps you have too much time on your hands. You should cool it.

Warren, not too far from the lines I suggested. Democrats should step back and start again.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250990

Nash,

You forgot the forced subscription to The Nation and membership in The Sierra Club and ACLU

GLobal warming will kill us all in 25 years?

Dark Lord, I don't think it matters much to me that some people here consider my posts. I was hoping to connect with the rational......

health reform is dying a slow and agonising death?

Posted by: sturgeone | August 13, 2009 7:58 AM

Actually, sturg, it is before a death panel as I type this. Dr. GrASSley will render his opinion.

Off to put offending appendage in the air. Be kind to each other.

Max: You said... "Nash your comments are inflamatory, unsupported and embarrassing."

Ok. And your point is...?

Max: You said... "Nash your comments are inflamatory, unsupported and embarrassing."

Ok. And your point is...?

Posted by: Nash2.0 Author Profile Page | August 13, 2009 9:09 AM
now I have coffee on my computer screen

Nash2.0

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250999

Not just the President, but Democratic Congresspeople and Senators as well.

We heard all this at the Sarah Palin rally's as well.

The I want my country back people are all white and they can't stand the fact that Americans elected a Black Man for President to sit in the White House even though it was built by Black Slaves.

The notion that the revised history of the Civil War that they push ( the War of Northern Aggression) is that it was all about States Rights and in some part true.

The States Rights being that they wanted the States to be able to say they could still keep slaves as property to do with as they liked. From beating them to even lynching them if they so chose.

Four Democratic members of Congress have already had their lives threatened by these fascists, racist, bigots.

And as you said they are trying to incite their base to murder not only Democratic member of House and Senate, but the President as well.

This woman really knows how to throw a monkey wrench into a debate...

http://www.facebook.com/sarahpalin?v=app_2347471856&viewas=6190&ref=search#

Amazing that part of her appeal is her willingness to say outrageous things that strain the truth.

Hey KGC,

Thanks for the Firedoglake link re: foreclosures not
subsiding & my pet peeve--bankruptcy law revision.

NYT had similar story a few days ago, but my computer has been attacked by something, is really acting bizarre & can not link to several sites---hopefully to be fixed tomorrow.

"Let me just say this because the MSM won't."

nash, why would they? aiding and abetting (albeit unconsciously) helps feed the ravenous 24/7 news beast.

anyone know of any precedent set constitutionally by law enforcement ever curtailing popular speakers (equivalent to the rushs and glens of today) who incited, encouraged or fomented uncivil unrest or violence?

Katherine GC: Max just doesn't "get" irony.

Sorry about your computer screen. I usually spill coffee into my keyboard.

This cleans out the food crumbs and it seems to work just fine after a couple of days of drying out.

Oh and some other important features in the healthcare proposals

1. Post Offices will double as ERs
2. GM will be required to make vehicles that run on fat removed from the obese (lipo-suction will be free)
2. Transplants for seniors will be elective surgery
3. Teaching universities will use monopoly money to pay salaries
4. All deceased people's organs will be sold abroad to help finance Medicaid/Medicare
5. Lobotomies will be considered non-elective surgery for all registered Republicans
6. Outsourcing of seniors to third world hospitals for non-elective treatments will include free living wills and free ipod
7. Veterinarians will be upgraded to doctors effective immediately
8. All foods not listed as "healthful" will carry a 15% government surcharge
9. All Republicans in comas will be considered legally brain dead

You all have a wonderful day....

The point Nash? It was an observation. Perhaps you can discuss the "point" with anon.

For some, work calls........

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250952 "I think people are angry because they have misinformation. No one is killing old people or denying treatments, at least no more than the insurance companies."

KGC, Yes, I completely agree.
I also believe that emotions often over ride clear thinking. I've seen it in myself.
When we start making decisions based on faulty information 'or/and' pure emotion, we're making bad decisions.

I wasn't really just talking about only health care KGC. I think the anger comes from more than that. A lot of changes are necessary, and most people don't like changes.

"For some, work calls........"

only the lucky ones who have jobs

Coreen,

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-251021

I had the same thing happen to me a cpl of days ago: I did a system restore to an earlier date; this took care of the problem.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250973 "...people are transferring their habits of thought to people who have been dead 200 years."

Bethy, An excellent post.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250967 "24/7 TV often makes it seem as if these jerks have more power than they do. They only have as much power as we give them by thinking they are important."

Your's too Jamie! I also liked your quote at 12:04 ""The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice..." -MLK Jr."

I enjoyed all those posts last night. Honest and from the heart.

patd:
re: assassination & the MSM

The MSNBC evening political crew (Ed, Chris, Keith, & Rachel) won't talk about assassination, because they don't want to do anything to put that idea into people's heads. I've heard them dance around the issue for months, and you can tell what they're thinking, but they won't SAY it, out of concern, not a desire to avoid criticism.

But on Fox (all day) and CNN (Dobbs) the incitement to violence goes on and on under the guise of populism.

Good advice Solar. A system restore and make sure your anti virus is doing it's job. Just make sure your restore point is far enough back, that it's 'before' the problem began.

Nash...Faux News is the leader in calling in the herd with code. Beck was drinking wine with a Pelosi mask and wanted it to be poison, the other day. Free speech is a wonderful thing and the repugs are making sure they rub the dem face into it like some bad puppy.

Thanks Solar,

I have unsucessfully tried to fix it--so tomorrow a.m. someone is coming to work on it.

"The latter write that President Obama is both going too fast, and not getting anything done, that he is changing too much, and so everything is unchanged." http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250950

Point taken XRep.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-250993

Ah Flatus.... I do not see your contridiction to my point of the slick game a few of the Representatives are playing. It seems agreement?

The Government is not running the provider - the are private ! unless VA, Navy, Army....
It is striclty the Funding elements

"I did a system restore to an earlier date"

solar, when you restore like that, does it wipe out any security updates that were made between that earlier time and the time the system broke? am thinking about the patches frequently necessary to cover the ever occurring problems with windows.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-251007

ROFL, Sea! You go girl!

patd...

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-251036

Just run a update on your anti virus and a windows update manually to make sure there up to date.

About those "death panels"---time/cnn has an
article about Ezekeiel Emanuel--Rahm's brother--who
has been singled out by the hysterical no/know nothings as the origin of the claims that health care
reform will limit care to the elderly & infirm.

"Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama' 'deadly doctor,' strikes back"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915835,00.html

$ in Millions (000,000)
Unadjusted
End of Year
Total
Year Federal Debt President Change %
1960 $290,217
1963 $309,347 Kennedy $19,130 6.59
1968 $358,029 Johnson $48,682 15.74
1970 $469,896 Nixon $111,867 31.25
1976 $653,544 Ford $183,648 39.08
1980 $930,210 Carter $276,666 42.33
1988 $2,684,392 Reagan $1,754,182 188.58
1992 $4,177,009 Bush(GHW) $1,492,617 55.60
2000 $5,662,216 Clinton $1,485,207 35.56
2008 $10,699,805 Bush(GW) $5,037,589 88.97

Source: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/mspd.htm
U.S. Treasury Monthly Statement of the Public Debt

Republicans are Borrow and Spend.
Democrats are Tax and Spend.
Common Thread is SPEND, SPEND, SPEND...

Reagan has the highest percentage increase while G.W. Bush has the largest amount and the second highest percentage increase.

President Obama is taking back the debate on health-care reform
"...The challenge for Obama is to move from defending reform to selling it.

Vitriolic discourse is as American as apple pie, but the president shouldn't allow himself to get sidetracked from the promise of extending health-care coverage to more than 45 million Americans without it and streamlining this country's unwieldy and unaffordable medical-care system.

To the New Hampshire protesters, Obama said: "Where we do disagree, let's disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed."

That was the president at his best, using calm, nondefensive language to pull citizens back from the brink and to the reality of health-care legislation on the table." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorials/2009650466_edit13obama.html

gotta go

I wonder if the Republicans, as they incite people to violence, realize that the most extreme crazies don't like Republicans, either. They hate EVERYONE in Congress.

They'd better beef-up security at the Capitol building.

"I yield the balance of my time to the gentleman in the visitor gallery with the assault rifle."

purple: Nice data. Thanks. This really addresses the topic of Craig's posting.

mornin'.

I'm not going to get involved in the healthcare debate this morning (maybe) - I've got to leave in about an hour to travel to one of god's (forsaken) little acres in East Bumfuck, WV.

I will say this, though - death panels - bullshit. Neither party is being straightforward enough to clear up the misdirection orchestrated by the insurance industry and their useful idiots like Grassley and Palin. And Ping, Medicare and Medicaid are indeed government run healthcare programs - granted, not in the sense that the VA medical centers are a government run healthcare program, but in the sense that MC/MA (CMS) apporoves and pays for the medical care of its participants - just like an insurance company. One of the slick things some of the reps are trying to do is make scared americans believe that the program being considered would BE a healthcare system like the VA - and people on the outside generally believe the VA medical system is a disaster. People like Flatus are in a better position to comment on that. Your HSA is different yet. If you meant to say something different, I misread it.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/big-spending-republican-hypocr.html#comment-251037

ree, too bad he's moving. that means the fans will miss the rfd rural news and commercials which introduced a lot of people to a totally different world.

craig, saw a nice comment about you on that blog ree just cited.

Well, in my corner of the world Imus won't be drawing from MSNBC or anyone elswe - FBN is not one of our cable channels. Shame - I kinda miss the old coot.

Coreen

I thought of you when I saw the article on foreclosures and bankruptcy.

My cynical nature has been vindicated---seems that
the inclusion of the end of life counseling by physicians
was really about paying doctors since Medicare at
this time does not reimburse them for counseling on
end of life care.

"Currently, Medicare doesn't reimburse for counseling for end-of-life care, a deterrent to doctors,
many of whom supported incorporating the idea into the House bill.

"We were delighted to see this in the legislation' said
Cecil Wilson, president-elect of the AMA.

The provision, he says, is really about making sure doctors get paid for their time.

"This is one of the more egregious examples of mischaracterization that I have seen," he said.

Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D. Ore) said doctors helped
persuade him to co-sponsor the measure & called them 'some of the most outspoken' on the issue.

He said he anticipated the provision, which was aimed at helping families navigate difficult medical decisions, not saving money, would remain in the bill."

"End of life provision loses favor"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125012322203627701.html

I really wish the Big Dog would weigh in on healthcare. He's very good at calling "bullshit" on the other side.

Good morning, bob h

I really wish the Big Dog would weigh in on healthcare. He's very good at calling "bullshit" on the other side.

Posted by: bob h | August 13, 2009 10:36 AM

I am ignorant, who is Big Dog?

btw, Ping, I did read the Ways and Means Republicans' criticism of H.R. 3200 and I understand why the public is confused - when the guys on the opposition side of the committee that the only bill yet to see the light of day lie about what the bill eill do and haw it differs from the way things are today it is difficult to see how an honest discussion of what the bill actually does could ever happen. I refer you to pages 4 & 5 of that "report" as being chock full of misinformation. Specifically, what they fail to say is that the plan as proposed and the things they are criticizing in the plan are all the things that private insurers and CMS currently do. The one thing they do likely have right is that the new plan would be entitled to premption over state laws that conflict with it - as is the case in EVERY area comprehensively regulated by the federal government. It really boils down to "we don't like strong federalism" and "this will force private insurers to raise rates or cease to exist" arguments. And finally, there is not a single example of what could happen under the plan cited by the WMRs that is not currently happening under private insurance today.

Frankly, I'd like to see a somewhat more evenhanded and less misleading analysis of the bill, and any reference to one would be appreciated.

BW - Bigdog = Bill Clinton.

Bye, y'all.

Posted by: Purple-in-Tampa | August 13, 2009 9:59 AM : "Republicans are Borrow and Spend."

I am in essential agreement except for this one little quibble :

republicans embody Borrow and Waste.

Thanks...I thought so, but there is a big dog rightwing blog on the net.

Agree, bob h, Clinton would be the missing magic in getting this understood by the American peeps. He can feel my pain like no body else!

bw, no wonder you didn't recognize him first off, bobh and pogo misspelled it. should have written "the big dawg"

and it's just as well neither hillary or bill are commenting as the opposition to universal health would add them to their list of horrors.

Blonde wino: "Big Dog" = Bill Clinton

patsi- a girl has to have fun every once in a while
Sturge might want to try that one out too.

Morphated

My new word. I hate what this change has turned into!

"He can feel my pain like no body else!"
ain't that the truth.

Am now on Facebook under my blogging name, Fairweather Lewis. Will not send friend requests, though, unless you tell me it's okay. Don't want to be any pushier than the knobite already is.:)

Cheney Uncloaks His Frustration With Bush
'Statute of Limitations Has Expired' on Many Secrets, Former Vice President Says

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081203306.html?g=0

osh, YGM, it may wind up in the spam trap. :)

NEW THREAD.. http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/08/staycation-thoughts.html

Thanks to Purple-In-Tampa's chart, we can divide the % increase in spending during each administration, and dividing by the number of years each administration was in office, come up with a very rough figure for the average increase per year since 1960. From the smallest increases to the most ENORMOUS :
1. Kennedy : 2.2 %
2. Johnson : 3.2 %
3. Clinton : 4.4 %
4. nixon : 5.7 %
5. Carter : 10.6%
6. bushling : 11.1%
7. bigbush : 13.9%
8. ford : 15.6%
9. reagan : 23.6%

One can see clearly that "Small Government" baby bush, with republican majorities in both the House and Senate, grew government at 5 X the rate of "Big Government and Papal Thrall" John Kennedy.

"Born Again Cheapskate" ronald reagan grew government 5 1/2 X faster than "Big Spender" Bill Clinton and 10 1/2 times faster than "Big Government and Papal Thrall" John Kennedy.

Please note that of the last 9 presidents, the 4 biggest growers of government were all republicans, whereas the 3 who grew goverment the least were all Democrats.

xrep

Thanks for the ranking.

Yep, we are still paying for ford and reagon...I feel many of our banking problems were seeds planted by reagon's policies. Now they are deeply rooted.

Posted by: patd | August 13, 2009 9:37 AM : "anyone know of any precedent set constitutionally by law enforcement ever curtailing popular speakers (equivalent to the rushs and glens of today) who incited, encouraged or fomented uncivil unrest or violence?"

In 1940, the PO refused to deliver fr charles coughlin's pro-nazi rag, "Social Justice" [sic] A raid on coughlin's Brooklyn office discovered a cache of weapons, including submachine guns, ammo, and a hit list of prominent Americans including Congressional Reps. The Bishop of Detroit muzzled coughlin,confining him to pastoral duties, which probably saved the nazi from being deported to Canada and hanged.

In 1941, the FBI closed down the pro-tojo operations of ralph townsend, and the American nazi operations of william dudley pelley's "silver shirts." "Christian Mobilizers" was also shut down. Both groups incited muggings of Jews and members of other minority groups, anti-union riots, and attacks on Congressional Representatives and election campaign organizations.

XR, any figures like that have to indexed for inflation during the period.