Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

A +

The sooner, the more betterer.

Like I said in my email to Nazi Joe the Lawyer.

"I heard that Herr Lindsey Graham and Herr Joe Lieberman are trying to block the release of the Torture Photo's is because some members of Congress are in some of them.

Maybe even Graham and Lieberman.

Perhaps Nazi Joe the Lawyer has heard this as well and can let the listeners know if its true.

That members of Congress participated in Torture sessions of detainee's."

Herr today, goon tomorrow........

Not until indictments have been issued. Or, they have been subpoenaed by the powers-that-be in The Hague.

but should we release photos that will continue to torture the tortured? isn't it enough to document admissions, descriptions, names of the participants and witnesses without pandering to msm titillation (or msm s&m) with graphic photos? why show the rapes of the woman or man, the pictures of pain and humiliation of others? is not the confession/admission that it happened enough? for those that were tortured, this worldwide exposure would be more than a "short-term embarrassment."

You mean it's not as simple as black and white?

rats.

patd...

Remember that the RFN's deny that we committed acts of Torture so the only way to confront the Truth is to shine it in the light of day and show the people what we did.

Maybe then we can begin to heal our Country and Constitution when all those involved in the committing of and covering up War Crimes are tried for their War Crimes.

Be it Republicans or Democrats.

At the Nuremberg trials, the most graphic depictions of inhumanity were withheld from public scrutiny,

It wasn't until years later that the stark visual reality of what happened made it into the MSM. And, it may not have occurred even then if the pictures had not been almost entirely B&W while the World had entered the color age.

Maybe you are right Pat. Maybe there are things we don't need pics of. Seeing those pics over and over may just desensitize us to the horror. Maybe we just need to admit "our bad!" .

ap, but can't that be done with words rather than pictures? or at least pictures in which the identity of the tortured is removed. yes, expose the criminal act, but don't inflict further torture on the individual who was the object of that act.

But don't let those who made seriously bad decisions at the top get away with it either!

Anon -- Your sentiments would carry so much more weight if you stopped calling everyone a Nazi. The term, thought through and well-placed, isn't bad....but give it a rest. Call them criminals.

this reminded me of the truth and reconciliation commission in sa. altho' it was on another issue of gov't indiscretion, last month desmond tutu "suggested that the United States could do with its own truth and reconciliation commission, along the lines of what happened in South Africa."

http://freepeltiernow.blogspot.com/2009/05/tutu-speaks-about-reconciliation.html

Patsi.....
amen.... when anyone over uses an insult they render it useless....

and have a great time with Garth this weekend....

They are already ticked at us; pictures aren't going to make it worse. However, I think they should put a picture of bodies left by bombs of their brother terrorist right next to them.

Don't show the photos in isolation of everything else...just show all of the horrible things people do to each other on both sides. There is plenty of blame to go around & that might actually mitigate further horrors down the road.
-----------------------------------------------

...and now some of the detainees are being voted ONto the island. (Wasn't there a season of Survivor set in Pulau?)

Thanks Renee. He is truly one of the best people I know. (I wish you were on Facebook, Renee....so you could see my new kitten photos!)

Posted by: patd Author Profile Page | June 10, 2009 7:13 AM

Well said, patd. I think you need a cigarette, Craig.

I was exploring the page to see what was causing the 'chime sound' every time the page is reloaded, and so clicked on the ad video on the top right: the first five years. It was done well enough that I ended up watching the whole thing (and it was a little long). Surprisingly, it's about what some of us discussed here a few days ago, children's learning and experience in the first few years of their life.

Patsi, I don't use facebook, but I do have a log in. Can you link your kitten pictures for us?

"I think you need a cigarette"

.... not nice Champ

Hey- I got an extra pack here if he needs them.

The release or the pictures being withheld depends upon weather releasing them will benefit Obamas reelection or not. Simple as that. They are trying to determine that now.

flatus, thanks for that isaak perlman link yesterday.

btw, if you watched the inaugural concert, you probably saw and heard garth doing the crowd pleasing "shout" gospel song. just didn't register maybe.

I'm thinking Craig maybe just want 'full transparency' since it was promised so many times during the election. I personally would never want to see those pictures, but they can't be any worse than what we can imagine.

In that case, buford, allow me:

Hey Team Obama! Releasing those pictures won't help your re-election!

"Releasing those pictures won't help your re-election!"

Now you're making total sense.... Talking straight to the heart.

sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail and face the situation.

---wc fields

Chloe -- here they are at four days old....

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=639218543&v=feed&story_fbid=92861743543#/photo.php?pid=1805821&id=639218543

I'm just killed by these clowns that keep saying Obama is robbing our children because they'll have to pay for these health care costs down the road. If SOME of these children don't get continuing care NOW, they won't live to pay the damned taxes anyway. The Republicans don't seem to care about that.

"The release or the pictures being withheld depends upon weather releasing them will benefit Obamas reelection or not. Simple as that."

Buford, I see you have a total grasp of politics. Everything you'll ever need to know about politicians, right there in that one sentence.

chloe, your tracking down the chime mystery is like this cat fascinated by rain chimes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmPCIHyR7WA

and "weather" is a fascinating typo.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234898

Thanks

Can you imagine what Newt & co. would do with that? The GOP would have a field day...

"Transparency brings honor in this case..." -CC

From what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, the pictures include graphic rapes. There's no honor in that; it's a lose-lose situation.

If a rapist walked up to you in the street and said, "hey, I just raped somebody, but here are the pictures, and I'm sorry," would you say, "Well, you seem like an honorable guy, and you must be embarrassed, but don't worry, it's only temporary... let me buy you a beer."

Patd, That cat in that video is kinda unsual looking, and is so cute.

dark, not only "let me buy you a beer" but we'll make sure your pix get shown on every front page and every tv news show 24/7.

not to make fun of a very serious subject, but a mental picture comes to mind of an exhibitionist who's just confessed being asked to open his raincoat to prove it? over and over and over

Patsi, I got logged in, but then keep getting the message "This content is currently unavailable". If you're sure about the link, I'll try again later

Hmm...don't know -- but FB has been weirdlately. I posted a bunch of notes to my daughter the other day and FB said it was too many in a row, and now won't let me post for a few days. They say it's all automated and they can't reverse my "time out"....stupid.

...don't want to beat a dead horse (and these chimes are driving me nuts); the last thing I'll say about the topic:

If the pictures are to be officially released, it had better be AFTER all our troops are out of Iraq. It's probably a moot point, however; they will probably be leaked sooner than later.

Chloe -- try this

http://booksandmusic-patsi.blogspot.com/

"Transparency brings honor in this case, despite the short-term embarrassment."

It's not just our red faces. This is a national "Program moment." The Eight Step calls for making direct amends to those we harmed "except when to do so would injure them or others." Clearing our own conscience by inflicting additional pain or injury is compounding a wrong.

As the saying goes, "Two wrongs don't make..." and all that jazz. Moving forward does not have to mean rehashing the past. We know what happened. There will be a time and a place for this to come out in its full horror. It doesn't have to be right now.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234912

My bad. It's Step Nine.

Patsi, I tried another way and just did a search under your name. I take it this is the right picture. So precious!. They sure look furry for 3 days old. (this link address is long, but it worked for me)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1805821&id=639218543#/profile.php?sid=588d63fd0906d56abdbf6e481f6bbf04&id=639218543&hiq=patsi%2Ccox&ref=search

..... I think you're right on Ivy. Nicely said.

mornin'

sturg, isn't that hair today gone tomorrow (it was with mine).

But to the topic for today - Oh, no, we wouldn't want to release the pictures - after all they might offend some people. Heaven forbid. They would not put anyone in harm's way any more than the descriptions of the torture they depict would or any more than an admission that we engaged in all the things that have already been reported. Even if they were released - and I'm betting they will be, eventually - of course they would only be posted on HuffPo and a few other "lefty" blogs after the initial shock of them wore off. If it's identities of the victims that you're concerned about, blur the faces.

The Abu Ghraib photos are a good lesson. Their release led to outrage and a perverse version of justice - punishing the few "rogue individuals" who were of course only following orders (of course they were doing so with too much glee by about half) from the top, ultimately Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush as the story has developed - I say perverse justice because only the underlings who were following orders (and the female officer in the chain of command of course) and were stupid enough to pose for pictures of the abuse suffered any detriment. But the point is, you now see the occasional pic of the guy on the box with the hood on and the guy being barked at by the dog, but you pretty much have to go to left wing sites to see them.

So that begs the question of whether the newly discovered photos should be released. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words - and I'm not sure I prefer the thousand words. As for me - I say release them, usher in the age of transparency and at least one element of the change that was promised in governing, and hope that the incident gets put behind us now rather than comes back up when the pictures eventually get released. Nuremburg is a good example of that - we got to experience a double shot of outrage and disgust because of the belated release of the pictures of atrocities.

And on this topic, reasonable minds can differ.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234897

Patsi --

Exactly!!! Their health has already been robbed, and in some cases they've been robbed of parents who died from lack of access to health care. My now teen-aged niece began living that one when she was seven.

Chloe -- then you should have been able to see the photo of my granddaughter with the horse....cute!

Patsi, It looks like those sweet little kittens are lay on the transcripts of one of your books. :)

I didn't Patsi, but will go back and look.

Patsi, It says I need to add you as a friend, in order to see more. So I did (I think). If you approve it, I'll be able to look. Maybe that's why the first link didn't work for me.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234917

Pogo --

As always, you exhibit a reasonable mind.

Patsi:

I will give Charlie-boy credit for on thing in that article. He nailed it when he said:

"What Fox did is not just create a venue for alternative opinion. It created an alternate reality."

Patsi....
those kittens are so cute and precious....
I haven't had a kitten in a long time.... for years now I've been going to a local shelter and adopting adult cats.... although I don't take any over 3 yrs old...
I want them around for awhile....

patd.... I agree with your stance on not releasing the photos especially because of the embarrassment it would cause the victims.... I think we need time to digest what the last administration did in our names and then have a full debate about it.... detailed descriptions of what happened should be enough for that, IMO.... maybe they could be released 10 yrs down the road....

Ivy, I try. :-)

Now here's one that (almost) leaves me speechless.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/09/steele-god-help-white-men_n_213471.html

What can you say about a black guy who heads the white guy's party warning about the fate of white guys in front of a court with a 1/9 hispanic membership? I really don't know where to start.

And it looks like Fiat will return to America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/business/global/10chrysler.html?_r=1&hp

Sorry, Craig, sorry Ping. The debt owners will have to tell it to the bankruptcy trusteee and judge. (Hint - Adversary Proceeding).

Why the hell were these pictures taken in the first place?!

Patsi & warren, Fox news is nothing more than the world through the eyes of archetypical southern white men from the 1960s. It reminds me of what one of my best friend's wife - he was from Livingaton, AL and she was from Columbus, OH - used to say to describe Livingston - 60 miles down the road and 100 years back in time. (And like Lingston, MT, Livingston, AL claims that Jimmy Buffet's "Livingston Saturday Night" is based on his experiences there. I've never been to Livingston, MT, although I hear it fits, but I have spent time in Livingston, AL, and it definitely fits)

And darklordB, thanks for telling me what that infernal chiming was - it was making me nuts, too. Hint - turn off the speakers or learn to listen to that soothing sound.

"Why the hell were these pictures taken in the first place?!"

Good question Warren. Could they have been taken to show the next guy what was going to happen to him, if he didn't answer some questions?

good question warren - my guess is that people who engage in such things are way down deep very proud of what they are doing and want to show people what hey have done.

and chloe may be onto something. (btw, hey = they)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234927

Warren --

Apparently, the fascist mind needs to document the preciseness of its own misdeeds.

pogo:

"Even if they were released - and I'm betting they will be, eventually - of course they would only be posted on HuffPo and a few other "lefty" blogs after the initial shock of them wore off."

I could care less where the pictures are posted here in the US.

The real question is where they will be posted - and what reaction will they cause - in the Middle East.

If a legitimate case can made that releasing the pictures will increase (1) the danger faced by the men and women of our military, and (2) act as an effective recruiting tool for AQ - than I am opposed to the release and predict a 5-4 S. Ct. decision blocking the release of the photos.

I have been to Livingston, Montana......nice little place they got there......can't imagine where Buffet woulda played there.....maybe the high school gym or something......

Transparency is a means to an end.

In other words, the stimulus spending is supposed to be transparent so that there can be oversight and so that it discourages waste in what is an ONGOING project. Elections must be transparent to prevent corruption, etc.

With respect to the photos, the end - i.e., stopping the policy of torture and mistreatment, was accomplished in Obama's first days in office.

If you all think we need this grim reminder to prevent further misdeeds in the future - than I agree with Renee - release the pictures 10 years from now. But in the near future - release of the pictures will not impact the way we treat prisoners one iota - and could cause a dangerous backlash.

These photos are like money in the bank.......

It's likely that they will be released......but it will be at the correct time......precisely when someone in gov't needs a little cover from some impending or developing bad news...

If timed just right It will serve as a great change of subject....From a political point of view after all it's the only "honorable" thing to do....laughs

I think Nuremburg is a good guideline for anything connected with torture. It protected the victims while making clear the crimes of the perpetrators.

We need some sort of "truth commission" and a full description of all photos for public consumption, but they really don't need to be seen by anyone other than the commission panel or trial justices.

Unfortunately, there are people in this world who get off on torture porn as much as some get off on sexual porn. More and more images only desensitize to what should be stomach churning for anyone who happens to see it.

sturg - Livingston AL is one of those towns that are able to save money by putting the Welcome and Come Back signs on the same signpost. There is a college there - UWA - used to be Livingston State College, where Buffet is rumored to have attended for about half a term before figuring out that there wasn't much there to hold him. It's in the Black Belt, Bible Belt, Tornado Belt and just about every other belt Alabama has.

Apparently Buffet spent some time early on in his career knocking about in the Bozeman area, and he may have drifted to Livingston when he was playing dives. (The Lingston site has 3 listings for live music, so anything could be possible I suppose).

warren - that is a good point. But rest assured that at some point they will be released and posted - and the reaction should be predictable.

I don't believe Nuremburg, which occurred in the age of inherent restraint in the media, which was newspapers, newsreels and Edward R. Murrow (radio), is a good analogy in the age of the media saturation of virtual newspapers, the internet and 24 hour news cycles. I am of the opinion that the pictures will come out, they will create a huge wave of disgust and reproval, and that if it occurs after we have supposedly rehabilitated our standing in the world following the disaster of the Bush administration, it will do more harm later than it would now. The torture porn folks will love it then or now - they are a non issue IMHO. As I said, reasonable minds can disagree on this.

Well, "You got your Tony Lamas on and jeans pressed tight, you take a few tokes an' you feel all right, rockin' and a rollin' on a Livingston Saturday night. Pickup's washed and you just got paid, with any luck at all you might even get laid, 'cause they're pickin' and a kickin' on a Livingston Saturday night."

Ree......they made a movie on my island oncet......."Swamp Thing" with Adrienne Barbeau.......lol
actually twice....also they made "Paradise" with Miami Vice Johnson and his wife at the time.......whasserface.......

HMMM

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2474307/Terror-suspects-were-on-AF447.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

Pitot tubes or a bomb, or just coincidence - you make the call.

We have incredibly serious problems in our country and all Lieberman and Graham can do is introduce legislation to suppress evidence in a criminal case.

Forget health care, hide the photos! Seriously, these people are insane.

"Why the hell were these pictures taken in the first place?!"

warren, could it be that the instigators who ordered the torture tho't they needed photos to keep records for future defense of their judgement? maybe some sort of mitigating evidence in them (the tortured tell the torturers what they want to hear) in their opinion would be worth saving to make their case. maybe that's what xvpotus is after.
otoh, maybe they're just dirty old men who get off on such things.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234946

sturge, didn't they also make "prince of tides" near you?

I have no clue. But when in doubt - rely on occam's razor...

So I am going with stupidity.

(Especially since torturers are stupid to begin with....)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

yeah, i guess they did......and also lords of discipline.....and :"The Double McGuffin" maybe some more i spose.......

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234950

a little therapy for all who are so uptight about the chimes. this guy plays a pretty mean bowl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM5Fa-uNfaM&feature=related

btw, guy on the mat isn't dead, he breathes now and then.

OK, so you knew I was going to way in on this one.

As someone who served over 10 years in the military and served in the middle east during the Kurdish uprising and Iran hostage situation, I say keep the photos concealed. We have admitted atrocities happened, some photos have been released, and we have admitted the wrong in what happened.

More important is what we do going forward and Obama has made a great start. He has shown a clear understanding of muslims and arab countries. He has vowed to be a fair arbiter in disputes between arabs and Israelis. They're not asking for special favors, just that we stop supporting Israel no matter what they do.

What is happening in Palestine is wrong and their side of the story has been suppressed in the US.. Charlie Rose used to the be the only journalist to invite arab authorities on his show and the first place I heard Dimona on a broadcast show.

Yes, I think Israel has had a hard time establishing their right to exist, but I think they're now well on their way and no arab country will actually attack them. Terrorism will be an ongoing problem but the best way to reduce that is to resolve the Palestinian issue. Hamas has repeatedly said they now want to be part of the peace process.

I think the only other thing we could do to make people in the middle east happier is putting Dick and Don in public stocks for some well rounded tomato throwing.

I'd be pretty happy seeing that too.

"Miami Vice Johnson and his wife at the time.......whasserface......."

Melanie Griffith was whashisface's wife at the time, I think. :)

"Seriously, these people are insane"

Hey there Wisconsin, In some cases, I'm sure you are right.

don, palumbo touched on the same idea:

".....I'm now in favor of bringing back public shunning. If anyone needs to be shunned, it's a guy who favors torture, unnecessary wars, and outing CIA agents.

Hell, maybe shunning isn't enough. Maybe we should take a leaf from the Bush administration's playbook and subject Cheney to the "enhanced interrogation technique" known as putting people in stocks. It could be that a couple days in an enforced sitting position, locked in wooden stocks in the public square, while outraged citizens and bemused schoolchildren point and laugh would prompt an attitude adjustment on Cheney's part. Though, admittedly, I doubt it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-palumbo/the-dick-cheney-problem-a_b_207104.html

Ree, I haven't been to Montana, but from what I've seen and heard, it's beautiful. Texas must have been quite an adjustment for you.

I still think that First five years add is what is making the chime noise. Watch the add while you reload. Actually, the sound is kinda pleasant. Makes me want to get another wind chime.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234943

Given how messed up and overloaded the terrorist watch list has become, there probably isn't a plane flying that doesn't have at least one of the names on board. Of course, this article will give the conspiracy folks a tingle up their legs.

They may want to ignore that at least for now there has been no indication as yet of fire or explosion on any of the pieces found.

Never blame conspiracy when human stupidity will do.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6468341.html

Laughs....here we go again....:)

"this article will give the conspiracy folks a tingle up their legs."

I thought that was just Chris that got those.

swamp thing by grid

this'll cleanse your ears of that pesky chiming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQqLDKsnqwA

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234956

Ree,

The folks on the "My Family Tree is a stick" side of the family thank you.

Ole Tweety is never going to live down that line about a tingle running up his leg... It is like when Quayle misspelled potato.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234965

Chloe,

Nope. It's pretty much anyone prone to hysteria. Of course that is all the MSNBC reporters except for Rachel.

This morning both Norah and Contess were practically having on air orgasms over upcoming video of a tazered grandmother.

" What Fox did is not just create a venue for alternative opinion. It created an alternate reality. "

Warren that little nugget caught my eye as well. Peyote will do the same thing, and just like Fox News, you have to throw-up before the trip starts.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234966

Should they ignore the possibility, no, but it also shouldn't be the first direction they go. I'm kind of with Sherlock Holmes, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

We know it didn't run into a skyscraper in the middle of the Pacific and Neptune didn't rise from the sea to stab the plane with a trident ... other than that, the whole investigation will probably take months or even years and the MOST LIKELY causes are mechanical or pilot failure. You don't eliminate terrorism from consideration but you also shouldn't go there in a great big hurry.

Ree,
I know what you mean about the mountains. I've been here long enough, that I no longer miss them (that much), but it was a real adjustment at first. But hey, it's a trade off, like everythng else.

That a very interesting family history you have there, and I really appreciate you sharing it. Thanks.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234972

Those early rural families that came out of Virginia and into Kentucky were interesting. I've got several cases of brother and sisters on one farm marrying the brothers and sisters on the neighboring farms. A generation or two down from there, I found a lot of second cousin marriages after many of the families had moved on to Arkansas, Texas and Oklahoma .

Ree's people have been sleeping with some of my people.

Sorry Ree.

Nice picture Ree. Good looking boys

I don't feel I have given up anything. When I said it's a trade off, I meant that I haven't gotten more than I've lost. I don't plan on ever giving up what I've got now..... I'm not even looking. It sounds like you ended up here purely through circumstance, whereas I hunted it down.

I hope you end up where you long to be Ree. CBob is another person here that really loves Colorado too.

Ree,

If you come across a Dishman or Walters family in the Daysville or Bowling Green, KY area, let me know so I can send up fireworks in celebration. One of my dead ends is George Walters marriage to Mary Disman sometime after 1840 (first child born 1844 location unknown though later children are confirmed in Daysville, KY).

He was born in VA and she was born in KY, but I don't have a clue about their parents.

haven't =have
have gotten more

I still think they should also put a picture of bodies left by bombs of their brother terrorist right next to them, instead of showing torture photos in isolation of everything else...just show all of the horrible things people do to each other on both sides.

Or, we could take the opposite route and just show pictures of kitties and hope that cuteness gets ingrained into everyones' psyche and maybe everything will get better.

"A centerpiece of sensible reforms will be to tie compensation to better measures of long-term investment and return and to adjust them to reflect the risk," Geithner told a Senate appropriations subcommittee Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090610/ap_on_bi_ge/us_executive_pay

I'd feel so much better if that dufus, Geitner, wasn't the one making the statement.

Just before HP took over Compaq.... Rick was offered a middle management job in Houston.... we actually contemplated the move for about a day....
but neither one of us could stand the thought of all the heat, humidity, and flatness.... we decided to stay put....

in hindsight.... it was the right decision.... HP got rid of a lot of middle management.... including the man who did take that job.... then we would have been stuck in Houston.... no family... and with housing costs much more expensive to move back to New England....

no offense to all the Texans on this blog.... :0)

None taken. I wish I had made a different choice about moving here...especially in July and August and whenever Gov. Perry speaks and...etc., etc., etc.

Craig,
Regarding the release of the additional torture photos -- I only partially agree with you.

Yes, the photos should eventually be released, but it is not necessary to release them immediately, when we have two wars in progress, troops in the field, and vulnerable diplomats (and even journalists and innocent citizens) who could easily become the target of retaliation.

The photos should be eventually released, but the timing need not be driven by the 24 hour news cycle that will exploit them for their sensationalist and voyeuristic value.

Even truth commissions usually take place after the space of some time, and usually after peace is restored. There will be time enough for this, but not now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/opinion/10friedman.html?_r=1

"While the Lebanese deserve 95 percent of the credit for this election, 5 percent goes to two U.S. presidents. As more than one Lebanese whispered to me: Without George Bush standing up to the Syrians in 2005 — and forcing them to get out of Lebanon after the Hariri killing — this free election would not have happened. Mr. Bush helped create the space. Power matters. Mr. Obama helped stir the hope. Words also matter."

Woo hoo Lebanon!! Go America!!

A good post, Warren.

Thought for the day :
" If you want the last word with a woman, apologize. "

1910 Howlin' Wolf [Chester Arthur Burnett], rocker (Evil, Big City Blues)

1610 1st Dutch settlers arrive (from NJ), to colonize Manhattan Island
1776 Continental Congress appoints a committee to write a Decl of Ind
1801 Tripoli declares war on US for refusing tribute
1809 1st US steamboat to a make an ocean voyage leaves NY for Phila
1846 Robert Thomson obtains an English patent on a rubber tire
1964 Southern filibuster on civil rights bill ends; cloture invoked
1966 Beatles "Paperback Writer" is released in the UK
1966 Beatles record "Rain", 1st to use reverse tapes
1966 Janis Joplins 1st live concert (Avalon Ballroom in SF)
1967 15,000 attend Fantasy Faire & Magic Mountain Music Festival, Calif
1977 Apple Computer ships its 1st Apple II

Pat,
Paul Begala brought up the idea of using public stocks again. I think it threads the needle between public outrage and a new trend in prosecuting past politicians. You know Republicans, they're not good on new ideas so I try and give them few.

Craig,
Other then feeding the out of date GWB bashing and maintianing a distraction for more relevant issues.

How can you even come close to compare and include the Holocaust wiht the questions related to the treatment of terrorist suspects - a few...?

Also these terrorist are true torture and beheadings. and random bombings, and and and...

Ree,
I was born in Colorado and I'm going to help a friend move back to Loveland next month. I can hardly wait to see Estes Park again.

I'm looking into Florida though. Flat and hot isn't me, but I love the water and year round green. Can't take the dry air any more either, If I moved back it would have to be the west slopes.

I like the north east tip of Texas. Lots of woods and more lakes up there. I still can't imagine living in El Paso.

I know I'm going to insult someone here, but Coloradans are always telling Texas and Oklahoma jokes because they drive 5 mph down the mountains and won't pull over. So with that:

Why doesn't Texas fall into the Gulf? Oklahoma sucks.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-234987

Blue,

Kittens and bunnies might not be a bad idea. It has been proven that children viewing violence tend to be more violent on the playground, while children viewing pleasant interaction try to calm down playground situations. We also know that serial killers tend to start with animals.

I'm really opposed to children being exposed to games, movies etc with violent components unless a "responsible" adult is present to give a context and lessen fear.

Speaking of violence. Five gunshots fired in Holocaust Museum. Two men transported to hospital (guard and shooter).

This is the play that was to be performed at the Holocaust Museum tonight with members of Congress in attendance. Not known if there was a connection to today's shooting

http://www.anneandemmett.com/the-play/emmett-till/

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-235002

Ping, you are right about the false equivalence between the holocaust victims and the terror suspects - who may or may not be who the pictures relate to - they could relate to enemy combatants - fact is, we don't know.

But your post suggests another issue - determining who of the current detainees have sufficient evidence against them suggesting that they actually have any involvment in terror - in other words, they deserve to be tried to determine which of "these terrorist are true torture and beheadings. and random bombings, and and and..." and either punished or released instead of standing on blanket assertions of guilt. They are currently incarcerated without charges pending, at least in most cases. That is the outrage IMHO.

Shooter identified as James Whitaker Van Braun or Von Brunn. Born in 1920 with criminal history and protests against Federal Reserve as well as Antisemitic activities.

89 years old and shooting people because he hates Jews.

Pogo,

Outrage.....Really? Hmmm....I wonder

You've obviously got a lot of free time....why don't you offer some pro-bono help to get those poor souls out of their predicament........laughs

Ree,

I was looking over some of the signatories of the Wautauga Assn and noted there was a George Russell. I have the following George Russell. Not sure if it is the same one. Do you happen to know the names of wives or children for the Assn members?

1 Capt. George Russell b: 1720 d: Bef. Apr 1794 in Grainger County, TN
..+Elizabeth Bean b: Abt. 1745
.........2 Sarah Russell b: Abt. 1765 in Pittsylvania County, VA
.............+Isaac Lane b: 1760 m: May 1782 d: 1851
.........2 Lydia Russell b: Abt. 1775 d. 1825
.............+Capt. James Roddye,. b: 1774 in Kentucky d: Abt. 1822 in Jefferson County, TN

Just think jaxtrader, it could be you one day.

Who would have ever thought that those of Jewish Heritage would one day be complicit in Torture and War Crimes after what happened in Hitler's Germany.

Nazi's torturing Jews and now Jews complicit in torturing Muslims.

Who would ever have thought that?

Geithner: No caps on pay for corporate executives

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner says the Obama administration doesn't want to place caps on executives' pay — even though it believes excessive compensation led to risk-taking that contributed to the financial crisis.

Geithner said the administration will seek legislation that will permit shareholders to vote on executive pay packages, but the results would not be binding on boards of directors. The administration will still restrict compensation at companies that are receiving taxpayer assistance through its $700 billion financial bailout program.

Geithner said the shareholder measures, as well as legislation to keep corporate compensation committees independent from boards of directors, will reinforce pay guidelines that the administration released Wednesday. Those principles encourage corporate boards to adopt pay packages that reward long-term performance rather than short-term gains.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090610/ap_on_bi_ge/us_executive_pay

Somebody send Hannity a memo that he will have to remove this from the list of talking points he repeats 26 times per show....

Jax,

Apparently you don't believe that all people deserve to live under a document such as the Constitution. If they aren't Americans it is okay to incarcerate them forever purely on suspicion.

We are currently negotiating to get the release of two young women from that type of government. Maybe we should forget the whole thing. After all, if we can do it to our prisoners why should we interfere with North Korea doing it to theirs?

Anon,

Anyone who has ever read a shred of history would have thought it....that's who........laughs

They've only been at each other's throats for a thousand years.......

jax, yes, it is an outrage IMHO. Am I outraged about it? Not as much as you might suspect, but it is a legal and moral outrage to which our courts and government are turning blind eyes and ears. Not being held without charges pending was a key issue when the US was formed - funny how we forget. But we remember tea parties - we tend to forget the specifics, but hey, that was over 200 years ago. And we're talking about money after all. Who cares about brown men who pray to Allah?

And WADR, you appear to have plenty of free time, too. Any pro bono work I did for any criminal defendant - well in this case who knows whether they are or not - would be unpaid malpractice - not something I have on my calendar under "things to do" today. My assistance would likely help insure their continued incarceration. I thought I did my part when I voted for the candidate who said he would close the Guantanamo detention facility and try those detainees against whom we had evidence of wrongdoing agains the US. I was wrong, and I'm actually more outraged about that little misrepresentation than I am about the plight of those poor souls. As Ping once said (well numerous times), "Words, just words."

You are wearing your snark well today.

For some light, stomach turning, material, here is Von Brunn's website

http://www.holywesternempire.org/bio.html

Ree,

After my initial research to establish my mother's links back to the 1700s until hitting dead ends, I moved on to my fathers genealogy and have been working on that. Lots to do on both sides.

Jamie, I hate to correcrt you, but North Korea tried and convicted (albeit in a kangaroo court) those two poor yung women. The difference between that case and the people we detain without charges are many, not the least being that we as a country seem to care that two of our folks were in our opinion wrongly captured, tried, convicted and will serve significant time in deplorable conditions if we can't convince Pyong Yang that it is in its best interest to let us have them back; the countries of our detainees don't seem to have a similar level of concern - at least not that we're let in on.

I don't know what's been happening in the last decade, or so, but there had been occasions where 'activist' mutual funds and pension funds sought to drive corporate changes through their share holdings.

In some cases, they were sued by the corporations saying that their activism was improper.

The real effect of the suits was a dramatic drop in fund opposition to corporate proxy positions.

In some ways, it is (sorta) nice to think that maybe it won't be humans that will be the cause of the destruction of our planet...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090610/sc_space/longshotplanetcouldhitearthindistantfuture;_ylt=AqzffVRNY0tBPGT0b0YWLRus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNsbHNqaGtoBGFzc2V0Ay9zcGFjZS8yMDA5MDYxMC9zY19zcGFjZS9sb25nc2hvdHBsYW5ldGNvdWxkaGl0ZWFydGhpbmRpc3RhbnRmdXR1cmUEcG9zAzYEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2xvbmdzaG90cGxhbg--

Pogo,

We've already acknowledged that these prisoners qualify as prisoners of war. Those that were captured as part of combat operations (the majority) can be held as a prisoner of war as long as we deem that hostilities exist.

We don't need to ever try them for anything. They aren't criminals. They are POW's They are entitled to Geneva Convention rights and that's it. GITMO is a fine POW camp as far as I'm concerned. When the hostilites are over I say we drop them right where we found them and let the chips fall where they will.

The ones that can be tried for crimes in our courts should be. Like the one they just transfered. He was indicted in 1998. Why they took so long to try him is a question to me?

Thanks for your 3:13 pm analysis, Pogo.

I know how I would handle the Korean situation should things continue to deteriorate. I won't voice how I would do it here, but I think it would have a better than even chance of solving the problem for the long-term with relatively little mayhem.

Flatus,
I'd like to hear it......

Ree:

I can picture it. "Mom quiting chatting with all those mixed nuts and take me to the movies!!"

(Kid's got a point ; )

We'll be here when u get back.

You're right about POW status, Jax. And it would most definitely place us in contravention of the Geneva Conventions it we were to place these POWs in a penitentiary setting.

POWs aren't criminals--they are detainees held by us until hostilities cease or until we grant them parole or unconditional release.

Flatus/jax:

I am guessing I might know. I suspect it deals directly with the heart of the problem.

Sorry, Jax. There's no way I would discuss it except behind the 'green door'.

Flatus,

I understand.....we'll see about N. Korea soon I expect.
Between Pakistan and them I'm not sure which is more scary.......both with nukes.......we'll see.....

Im alway's motivated by the picures that I see. I really liked today's pictures of the people that C. Amanpour was interviewing in Iran. When confronted with the pictures of real live people. Makes it a lot harder to hate them-kill them-bomb them imo:

I was motivated to post a lot about the women-children after I saw pictures of them after they were sprayed with white Phosphorous. Kinda agree with Patd. I don't know which way to go on this one.

Warren- I agree with you. " Go America". Also in total agreement about the elections at Lebanon. The people that don't want the blood shed (never did) won over the ones that did.

As far as Im concerned. The people that want to shed blood should use the buffer zone for it. The warriors on both sides should go in there with a shields-swords. Knives. plus the close contact of hand to hand should satisfy the need to kill:

I also agree about Pres, Obama's speech winning over the people in Iran. Did you see all of the smiling faces. They want that fleahead out of there also. Go Obama. That's a first for me. have to watch that!

Interesting take on shootings:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0609/The_museum_shooter.html#comments

"So, this would be the second act of domestic terror committed by someone specifically mentioned in the DHS report that the agency pulled after the GOP and the religious right criticized them. First was the abortion doctor killer (DHS warned that far right extremist might use abortion to rally their crazies) and second is a former member of the US military tied with extremist hate ideology (again, the DHS report warned about former military being recruited by far-right anti-govt hate groups). The Obama administration made a big mistake pulling this report only weeks before two acts of domestic terror, practically predicted in the report. They were right, and they caved. Will the report now be revived?"

How bout dropping far-right or far-left and just using the word "extremist." It puts the focus on the real problem. It would also include that fool that shot the soldier.

Jax and Flatus, from what I have read, that is not correct. SCOTUS said in Hamdan that they are classified "Enemy Combatants", which entitles them to the minimal protections of Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which provides for humane treatment and fair trials for prisoners. That might be splitting a hair, but they are not POWs. And in Boumediene SCOTUS said they are entitled to protections under the Constitution. That said, I have not read everything, or even extensively on the issue, and would welcome any referencs that correct my understanding.

Pogo

I was being facetious. After posting I thought of being even more snarky since the Koreans at least gave the women a trial which is more than we have done.

Don't you just love people who think it is okay for us to behave worse than the North Koreans?

Warren-

"In some ways, it is (sorta) nice to think that maybe it won't be humans that will be the cause of the destruction of our planet."

I forgot which science magazine that I read that the earth is now expected to last 1 billion years more that they thought previously. What they didn't say was how many people per sq. acre there would be HA!

Jamie:

Good ol' American Exceptionalism...

No worries Solar - we will be polluting other planets and galaxies sooner than you think!!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-235031

Ree I have Sarah Russell marrying Isaac Lane which ties right into my Lanes

Send anything you have to my email

webthings at comcast dot net

Thank you.

These people in Gitmo aren't POWs. There hasn't been a declaration of war against Iraq. They are suspects who have never been charged with any offense. How long should we hold them in an undeclared war against an attitude (war on terror)?

I suppose we could just stash them away until they die of old age.

Pogo,

What if we just declared them POW's? In both Afghanistan and Iraq we went to war to force a change in gov't.

I don't know why we don't declare them all POW's and move on from there. If we feel that have sufficent evidence to try them as criminals then we do it. If not then we hold them as POW's until we release them.

Jamie, sorry for being thick. :-)

warren, re: the planetary cataclysm scenario you put up there, if in billions of years the planet is still habitable, I doubt that any of us will notice the crash. George Carlin used to do a bit on pollution - had one liners like "mother nature is doing just fine, thank you very much." Of course his point was that the earth doesn't care whether we are here or what we do - it will be whatever it needs to be, or at least that is the point I took from his bit.

It's before my time but did we ever declare war on North Korea or Vietnam.......Something in my fabulous public school education thells me that we didn't....maybe I'm wrong......but I'm certain that there were POW camps......

Pogo, Jamie, et als.

This paper sums up the thought on providing them POW status:
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/inthecourts/gitmo_briefs/Retired_Military_Officers.pdf

Flatus,

This whole detainee debate has in my mind really helped the US military and CIA see the light......When was the last time that you read about us capturing a combatant and taking them into U.S. custody........

Those predator strikes don't leave alot around for questioning........

"No worries Solar - we will be polluting other planets and galaxies sooner than you think!!"

Not if we leave the flat earther's here to clean up the mess. Today I read about a suburb that is close to mine. Crestwood. ( When you pass city hall. They always have some bible quotes on a sign out side.)

For the last 20 plus years the people from there have been drinking polluted water from the city well that they were told to shut down by the epa. The father of the Mayor started to falsify water reports when he was Mayor.

The son. Was praised by the local Republicans for having very low taxes. They even were giving some of the tax $ collected back to the people that lived there. They were told that the city bought the water from lake M.

All of this time they were drinking water that was being polluted by a dry cleaners near by. The Chemicals from the cleaners are said to be very harmful. Another case for Fitz. They are going to jail-the father-the son-and the holier than thou!!!! GREED

Back to going to Mars. Count me in. Freez me. Then shoot me over there with my concrete tools. But don't forget my pc

jax, I would think that would be the correct path to take. Cheneyco would only do that over Cheney's dead body. The only fly in the ointment, and I admit that this is a personal gripe, not a legal one, is that the WarOnTerror could very well last forever, which means we have, by declaring war on a concept - and one that no two people even agree on the definition of, created a potentially unending situation that allows us to hold POWs for life. Arguably, when we pull out of a territory that was a signatory to the GCs, we would not be able to continue to hold POWs from that area without trying them - and I don't know whether Afghanistan or Iraq (oJ whatever the ICJ would consider the appropriate forebear(s) of Iraq) were signatories, but you are thinking correctly IMHO - treat them fairly, try them if there is evidence to do so, and let them go if we no longer have a beef with their country (I would argue that since we have not declared war on their countries, we should either try them or release them now, but your point has merit as well). And yes, put them back where we found them.

Pogo,

Yep, treat the ones we captured in Iraq and Afghanistan in military ops as POW's. All the rest captured across the world as terrorists and criminal prosecutions....

I feel OK calling Iraq and Afghan ops war.....at least as much as Korea and Vietnam....I'm not comfortable calling war on terror....war...too ambiguous and in my mind unnecessary.....

Pogo,

Please read the amicus that I pointed to. It details the mechanism by which individuals are determined to be POWs or some other category of miscreant.

We simply don't try POWs for fighting IAW the Laws of Armed Conflict. And, we hold POWs, not place them in a penitentiary environment.

Yes. Flatus, and SCOTUS agreed with the amici who filed that brief. I agree with SCOTUS.

Carrie Prejean Stripped Of Miss California Title

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/carrie-prejean-stripped-of-miss-california-title/23672?nc

What are the odds of a Playboy shoot for the darling of the right....

Oh, I should emphasize, POWs who want to be released may do so if they accept parole where they agree to no longer participate in aggression against the holding country. Otherwise, they can sit in their POW camp forever.

Americans are forbidden to accept parole.

Ree, used to hear the 15 minute thing about Colorado. When the jet stream is shooting over the Rockies it takes no time for a storm to come up, or for schnook winds to warm it up 40 degrees.

And for equal time, I hear if Senator Inhofe moved to Texas the average IQ of both states would go up 40 points.

Solar, Neil DeGrass Tyson was on one of the night shows a few months ago and said we have a large asteroid collision looming. So no problems with the pollution.

You can see near misses on www.spaceweather.com, as well as some very cool photos of the sun and coronas.

Pogo, you and I are reading the brief with different sets of eyes. I think absent a tribunal that individually categorizes them as some other type of combatant, then they must be granted the rights of a POW.

Of course, if a POW commits a crime while in that status, he may face criminal sanctions and take-up residence in the local carcel.

Trivia.

Who said, and what do you think of the unbiased political pundit who said the following:

"If you're actually in the room when Ronald Reagan gives one of his speeches and you don't cry, you're not an American."

Flatus, there are plenty of people who would argue that the Gitmo detention facility is just the type of penitentiary environment in which we do not hold POWs. I frankly don't know enough about it to say one way or the other, but there are those who do.

I did read the brief - it is an Amicus Brief - and one well done, I might add. The only question SCOTUS addressed was whether US courts have jurisidction over the Gitmo facility to determine whether foreign nationals at Gitmo could in effect, invoke habeus corpus to challenge their detention, and ruled that they do.

Don-

Thanks for that. Going to take a look at it later. I love those. I have one right now on my screen. One that shows an astronaught doing repairs to the space craft. He is doing this while we can see the Earth below in all blue.

It's a make you feel good background. Another is about a mountain climber that is entering a mountain in Peru I think?. He is the first Human to set foot in it. I will get the pics and post them. I think that you will like them.

Don-on another note. That Texas joke that you told. Three thumbs down. You had the timing right but you need new material. haha

TiR - I'm guessing it was our host.

It was Hannity and I love him!!!! xoxoxo Hannity!

newpogo. Wrong!

Thanks you for ditching the chimes, tech-staff.

DL. Wrong.

You got burned, newpogo!

Noooooooooooo!

Well, I still want to have Hannity's little demon babies.

Pogo,
I agree with the SCOTUS only on some of the detainees. I believe that there is considerable precedent given our past history that most of these guys are POW's and not subject to our civilian courts.

Now maybe there is something special about each one of these guys that kicks them out of the POW realm. But it sure seems like those Chinese Uighurs were really POW's and are being released.

Chris Matthews! Where's my prize?

You tricky little devil, TiR... Shenanigans! I call "Shenanigans"!

mary matalin???

Flatus, here's the Rasul Opinion for your perusal. By SCOTUS standards, it's concise.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-334.ZO.html

HANNITY: All right. Let's go to this. I — we all know the tingly feeling comment that Chris Matthews made.

GOLDBERG: Right.

HANNITY: We all know that one. I didn't know this until I read your book, and I highly recommend this book. But he was on "The Tonight Show" a year ago.

GOLDBERG: Oh yes, yes, yes.

HANNITY: If you're actually in the room when Obama gives one of his speeches, and you don't cry.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

HANNITY: . you're not an American.

GOLDBERG: Right. Can you imagine — let me ask you audience. Can you imagine if Sean Hannity said that about Ronald Reagan. You're not an American if you don't cry. They would be calling you a fascist, a Nazi, and — and those will be the nice things, yet here is a guy — this isn't political analysis. This is a man crush. Chris Matthews.

Come on I thought this was a politico wankers haven. You must know this, but even don't you must have an opinion about what they said.

Don-

"Neil DeGrass Tyson was on one of the night shows a few months ago and said we have a large asteroid collision looming. So no problems with the pollution."

Tyson is one of my favorites. What I like is that he looks like he is having so much fun while blowing you away with his cosmology. But have you or he heard?

There are new way's of steering the asteroids away from hitting my house. Not the way that they said before-bomb them to smitterings. They forgot that the pieces that would come from doing that are also large chunks of asteroids!

Tyson has shown where they plan to drill into the asteroid. Insert some type of explosion so that is veers away from Mother Earth. I have to look around for a taped program where he is with some other science favorite. They had a gas. They took turn talking about the universe and all.

WTF is your point, TiR? That Chris Matthews is biased? Whoa-ho! News Flash!

"There are two basic truths about the enormous deficits that the federal government will run in the coming years.

The first is that President Obama’s agenda, ambitious as it may be, is responsible for only a sliver of the deficits, despite what many of his Republican critics are saying. The second is that Mr. Obama does not have a realistic plan for eliminating the deficit, despite what his advisers have suggested."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?no_interstitial

Sorry Jack, no brass ring. You must remember the words, as they are so over the top.

TIR....
my guess would be Obama....

don, have you considered portland or seattle?

and on that public stocks idea, it's different than the good ole days of just hanging them out there as a target of scorn and rotten veggies....nowadays the bestocked (or is that stockee) would be provided privacy for calls of nature, balanced diet, protection from the crowd throwing stuff or poking them, and probably sunscreen and similar health prophylactics to ward off the inevitable lawsuit. maybe better to order required number of hours of continuous interviews hosted by all the most obnoxious pundits oof both sides in an open forum with call in questions from the general public.

Up the dosage, TiR.

but then Obama was never a pundit....

another guess..... an onion farmer.... he wanted to sell lots of onions....

Mathews was my second guess. The unbiased pundit crack steered me away from that choice. :-)

Flatus, as I understand it, the decision simply says that the courts fo the US have jurisidiction to determine the status of the prisoners who challenge their detention. Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Gonzales created the monster by asserting that the executive had plenary power over the detainees with no oversight from either other branch.

And now, I'll be going - later.

hey... wait a minute...
that sounds like something Tinkerbell..... er... I mean Peggums Noonan would say....

and if she didn't..... she sure should have...

Ree,

Here's a website you might enjoy

http://www.larkcom.us/ancestry/Russell/notables.cfm

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-235053

Solar,

No one has claimed we will destroy the earth .. not too likely unless we bump into something very, very big. That doesn't mean we can't make it uninhabitable to all life above the level of a cockroach.

We are already starting to die off courtesy of pollution, lack of potable water, and increasing desertification.

Don-

The first is my all time favorite. The other two are tied for 2nd place.

http://img150.imageshack.us/i/bang.png/

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/br45566.jpg/

http://img198.imageshack.us/i/nasapix02.jpg/

Don-

Forgot. Put them on your screen as backdrop. Then stretch size for full effect. Then discard if u want...I rotate them.

Give that man a cigar. That is right, is was Matthews after coming down from his shivering leg attack withdrawal.

I don't see any of the old gang here, no conservatives, or a stray Repub hanging out here anymore. Don't you guys get tired of preaching to the choir.

BTW. Where is Brian?

frydaddy.... should have recognized you....

Brian was sent to Bellevue hospital because he spent too much time in Margaritaville.... :0)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-235091

TIR

You are way too late for that party. During the election beating up on Tweety was a main event for the Clinton supporters, myself included.

You might want to update your material to something that happened in the last month.

Is TIR really Frydaddy? Are you TIR?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/release-the-torture-evidence.html#comment-235061

Jax,

It was a UN action and they called it a war even though the largest contingents were American and British + ANZAC forces

It was a "Police Action" that was upgraded to "Korean Conflict". Out of courtesy to the men and women who died in the police action, the acceptable terminology is now Korean War though never officially declared

Timeline of "The Forgotten War"

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/webspecials03/koreanwar/timeline.shtml

.

I love that area Pat, but I'm severely SAD. I'll probably end up in Florida with all of the other crazy people. I might even head further south than that. Love to visit though. Too bad the ocean is so cold on the left coast. Unfortunately there are only hills on the east coast.

I want some way for the US to stand up as a whole and say we're not what the neo-cons tried to make us look like and we're embarrassed by our actions. I'm afraid though that too many Americans really don't care what happens to anyone outside their city limits.

Very cool Solar. Thanks. I like the spacewalk one best.

Jamie, interesting thing on that program about what would happen to the stuff we've built if people were suddenly gone. Cockroaches can't survive without winter heated homes in the north any more. So they may survive radiation, but they can't survive the cold.

Does anyone like Tweety? That's another one of those shows I wonder who is watching.

I'll repeat it here since some may have glossed over it above. This is the timeline for the Korean War

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/webspecials03/koreanwar/timeline.shtml

As you read through, you can see the seeds planted for both Viet Nam and the Middle East

Jamie-

"We are already starting to die off courtesy of pollution, lack of potable water, and increasing desertification."

Last weekend-Saturday. I was at a birthday party for my little grandnephew. His parents are college grads. What they believe is that there is no such thing as Global warming. They are great parents. Great kids. that says that there is no mention of it in the bible. That it is cyclical. I did not even bother to talk to them about it.

I did send them a site that explains how we are able to take core samples of ice that have sand in them. That we are able to see what the weather was like over 400k years
They showed me a long list of scientist that don't believe in global warming.

They showed me a long list of scientist. That proves that G W is not real. I told them that they are not true scientist.
If they can't back up their Ideas. They are called pseudo scientist .

Their hypotheses ( ideas) to explain anti global warming facts (against g w ) are not much good unless they can stand up to rigorous test. They were from the Cato institute.

Don1one

I stopped watching Tweety during the primaries. He was just so over the top in drooling infatuation with Obama.

I now watch him at least to turn on to see what the subject or guests will be. If he starts getting too excited with the spitting, run on questions without waiting for an answer and just being insufferable, I switch off.

When he is good, he is very, very good - one of the bst analysts in the business. His weekend show is completely different and often enjoyable.

I will admit to certain kinds and degrees of incompetence, but I don't thinki this is all my fault. I am considering buying a new tv because of this digital tv thing, and I can't find anybody who can answer basic questions for me - certainly not comcast!

Does anybody here know the difference between digital tv's and hd tv's, and are you willing to tell me?
For months comcast told us if we were hooked up to them already, we could relax and let them handle it.
About two months ago they called an told me I needed a box - which I hate.

I have several other gadgets hooked up to my tv, and there's no room for more. So I decided to get a new tv
because comcast told me my old tv was too old, and the new tv's had it all inside.

I guess I have to go to Amazon for any kind of selection, and that's ok - but I obviously don't understand which is more important, digital or hd, or either. My new camera requires hd. I do not know whom to ask because I find there are very few people in the business who really have many answers.

Look, I'm 66 years old and a liberal arts person. I'm a word person, not a cable person or wires person. I know what the binary system is but it is frustrating to me and ends up making me nervous. I'm getting there now. But I am willing to pay for my ineptitude and others' skills - that's the way life goes.Does any of this make sense to anyone there? What's digital and what's hd? what's better?

Thanks. Sorry to be such a pain in the ass, but I was born this way.

Sorry Craig, but we are at a turning point in our war against extremists. Too much hangs in the balance than to say Obama is lying that unreleased photos show worse abuse than former ones. If they don't, the point that is more important than this critical Middle East moment? Most moderates on both sides say there was no systemic abuse, so what would photos prove that we don't know without them released? That there were many who escaped control by their superiors is not the same thing as policy directives.

Were these photos to be released now, many will connect this to Gitmo (wrong) and draw nefarious assumptions about America regardless of the bloodletting such a release would cause.

If some are right that rape and things worse than former relevations happened, then these things should be taken to court. Let a jury decide, with descriptions of pictures. There is a way for both justice and present national security to be satisfied.

As far as potential terror events, this seems like it has legs:
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=6120

Last, I have been watching the election in Iran. The following shows just how bad both leading candidates are. Ahmadinejad losing would be a bigger blow to Quds, but Moussavi helped create Quds and his record is pretty bad too.

http://ncr-iran.org/content/view/6460/1/

are we turning a corner and in danger of not staying the course?

Bethy,
You actually do NOT need a new tv if you have cable. You also probably do not need a cable box. If you have cable you should be able to run from the wire coming out of the wall, but you will receive a limited number of channels.

Bethy,

It is my understanding that HD is, in fact, digital. Cable is digital that is why you will be ok if connected to a cable company. You will need the box that Comcast probably uses. I use Charter and I have a cable that comes in from the pole outside. It is connected to the box and then the box is connected to the tv.

HD means that there are more scan lines and pixels on the screen thus making the picture much clearer and sharper. If you go to a tv store you can see the difference. You can daisy chain most other tv related things like a DVD or tape recorder and the like. I hope this clears up some of your questions. read this link I found on Google

http://www.timefordvd.com/tutorial/DigitalTVTutorial.shtml

One of the drawbacks to HDTV is that there is not a lot of programing yet in HD. More all the time but it is still in its infancy. After saying that, I would buy a HDTV since a tv is not generally replaced for several years and the technology is gonna be here for a while.

dooty

Beth,

Any TV you buy new is going to be a digital TV capable of receiving broadcasts without a converter box. HDTVs are capable of receiving an HD signal, ,which is a high-quality digital signal, good for sports and movies. A TV must be marked as "HDTV" to receive HD signals- not all digital TVs are HD-capable. If you watch a lot of TV, get the HDTV. Of course, you will have to get digital cable to get HD signals, and then they get you hooked... get used to paying $100/month for cable. I'd recommend just not watching TV at all, of course.

The largest big-box electronics retailer has a generic 40" HDTV for $500.

I like tweety's weekend program. I'm just generally losing interest in talking heads though. I'm more of a foreign policy wonk than a political person anyway.

As I've said before, I like Obama's foreign policy agenda. I'm still real nervous about his money people. Which makes Newt's argument about how things would have been so different with McCain complete nonsense, since McCain is a foreign policy 'expert' and doesn't know a thing about economics. And the last thing we need is McCain's brand of foreign policy.

Warren made an interesting point, a lot of Obama and Clinton's foreign policy work would have been in vain if Bush hadn't been in office first.

English now officially has one million words.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/greater_vancouver/newwestminsternewsleader/opinion/47628872.html

14.7 new words are added daily.

While the college educated can identify about 60,000 words, they only use about 20,000 of those words and only 5,000 with regularity.

Improve your vocabulary while doing a good deed at free rice http://www.freerice.com/

Carew Rice........southern silhouettist...............

http://www.clayrice.com/cmArticle.php

Hey Dark Lord here's a good one for you:

http://www.slate.com/id/2220221/

Bethy

I have Comcast. The downstairs TV (mine) is just a normal old TV. The box I have will work just fine except for the purely HD channels. You won't lose any of your current reception at all.

Our upstairs TV is digital and High Def. That one required the new box and can receive everything Comcast carries.

Bethy,

If I were you, I'd go talk to someone in the TV department at Best Buy. They are very helpful and will explain everything to you. They'll even deliver it and set it up for a charge.

I think your cable company will also come out and check it all out if you ask them to (for a charge, probably).

You know the TV you get will be digital, and HD just means it has a clearer picture. That's probably why your camera requires it. That's all you have to worry about.

played in a restaurant oncet which had carew rice silhouettes cut out of 4' x 8' sheets of half-inch plywood around the walls for murals........spooky.......

I have a very cheap lcd tv with HD capability. I get about 10 HD channels without a digital cable box, but none of them map to where the tv guide says they should.

I have Time Warner.

From the Carew Rice site.......

Paper Trail

The profile silhouette (cut out usually in black paper mounted on white board, but sometimes also the reverse), has a curious origin rooted in a spirit of dilettantism and class prejudice. The word comes from the art form's first practitioner, Etienne de Silhouette, who was the finance minister of France in the mid-18th century-an official who would otherwise be forgotten to history if not for his hobby of cutting profiles. More interested in that than in the equitable stewardship of the country's coffers, Silhouette enacted reckless,unreasonable tax policies that made him an enemy of the people and set the stage for the French Revolution. The word “silhouette” gained notoriety when the peasants, in derisive protest, took to wearing only black clothing and calling out, “We are dressing à la Silhouette. We are shadows, too poor to wear color. We are Silhouettes!”

Bethy,

With COMCAST, you are probably already paying for one box, whether you have it installed or not. The cheapest alternative would be to just get Comcast to deliver and install that box. Additionally, as I said above, you probably will still get a limited number of stations by hooking up your tv to the cable wire that comes out of the wall.

Bottom line, you do not NEED to buy a new TV unless you want to.

Jamie,

What is 0.7 of a word?

Thank you, to both Dooty and Dark Lord- I have what I need to know. I still don't know what all the letters mean after the name of a model, but I'll go with the hd. I don't really care whether it's hd or not, but do want it compatible with my camera. My sister has a 40 inch hd and it can get kinda hinky in some of the close ups!
I think I'll go with 26 or 32 inch.

"you do not NEED to buy a new TV unless you want to."

Joe, That's what's nice about Best Buy, they don't work on commission, so they aren't pushy about trying to sell you anything.

I thought Bethy said the cable company already told her she needed a new TV. (?) Regardless though, you're right. Her best bet would be to have them out first.

Bethy

Been waiting to say that Im truly sorry if I have hurt your feelings in anyway.

About tv. All of the informatiion that you received so far is right on. after studying the new tv's that are out there. I have made a decision that will make my wife Judy happy. She like to watch the Movies on my big screen that I have. a 65 inch.

I have looked into the front projection home theater. They make them so that they are a lot less than a new tv. For about $1,500.00 Im going to buy one (sony) that can be viewed on a big 100 inch screen. Or the 80 inch that I like for a very clear pic.

They work with anything like cable tv. They will work with your computer (so will the new tv's) anything that is out there. If one compares what the tv's cost inch per inch. The front Home Theater System is the way to go imo. sorry if I just confused you even more.

Bethy,
I'd stop by the old Consumer Reports site. There's a huge difference in noise (picture quality), filtering, life of screens, dots (pixels) that burn out, etc..

"Joe, That's what's nice about Best Buy, they don't work on commission, so they aren't pushy about trying to sell you anything."

I've encountered plenty of pushy BB salespeople. They may not work on commission, but I'd surmise they get performance incentives.

...the bigger the better, Beth. With letter-boxing and widescreen broadcasts, half of the screen gets cut off, so if you have a 26', the picture can get pretty small.

Max,

Re: Marijuana Laws

I suppose California will soon become a laboratory for all sorts of policy, and it's somewhat ironic (considering the liberal majority there) that due to the economic crisis, a lot of conservative economic theories will be put to the test with the elimination of so many social services.

To finish off your confusion Bethy. At my house I have a big screen projection HDTV that is not digital. It was called HDTV ready and sold several years back. I also have a satelitte that does not carry networks. I had to buy a special converter box that converts to HDTV. I could only find one of those made by Samsung. It costs over 4 times more than the regular converter box.

I also have all the other combinations mentioned above. It does require a master's degree in television sets to figure all this out. I didn't get much help either from the maker of the TV or the place I bought it.

And to throw another monkey wrench in the pile Bethy, I heard that if you are getting a smaller screen TV then high definition is a waste. Smaller screens don't really appreciate HDTV. HD is more important with the larger screens. Anyone know anything about that?

Solar , I cannot imagine how you might have hurt my feelings. When you talk about being frozen and sent to Mars, or anything like that, you occasionally turn my stomach and/or just plain freak me out, tho.!

What a lot of good info re tv's. I had heard terrible things re Best Buy, esp about returning things, like not getting a full refund. I'm also not sure if they will have a big selection, but whatever.... I may go there tomorrow just to look. Every time I've been in there, they have had acid rock playing so loud I couldn't stay.

Dark Lord, I hadn't thought re the size messing with letterbox etc. Do you think 32 inch would do any better?

I understand why they did it, but I think I wish they hadn't closed Dr. Tiller's clinic.

Really been enjoying the discussions re gitmo. My recollection re pow status is that w emphatically denied that they were pow's and that's why they were held there or any of the other centers. I would suspect that if he changed his stance, it would have been big news - aha! but if quietly done with semantics, maybe not.

Korea was supposed to be a police action, right because congress wouldn't declare war? Interesting its new status as a "conflict." (Oh,my god, I first put an apostrophe in'its' - don't think I've ever done that! I've been so smug about it, too.)

I wouldn't like to see any photos of rapes and murder released, I don't care who were the victims or criminals. I would, tho, like to see the pix out in the air, allowing time for some discussions and other calming
things on an agenda. They should certainly be discussed graphically, even the rape and murder. But pix of rape and murder, no, not necessary and even provocative, inflammatory, and humiliating. Everyone knows what they mean.

A 26 foot tv Dark Lord? Wow, opening a drive in?

OK, I'm being pedantic. But things are slow and I couldn't help it.

BTW, General Taguba has denied the reports he's seen photos of prisoners being raped. I believe we still don't know what they contain.

Max-

Your getting desperate now that your # 1 enemy in Iran is on his way out. Did you see the pictures of the common people that are going to vote them out?. They are beautiful looking women and children. Please-please don't bomb them.

Hezbollah has been dealt a blow also. Hope that-that area will be given the chance for peace. Obama did good Huh?

The Jerusalem Post says that
"the minister suggests reconsidering military and civilian purchases from the U.S., selling sensitive equipment that the Washington opposes distributing internationally, and allowing other countries that compete with the U.S. to get involved with the peace process and be given a foothold for their military forces and intelligence agencies."

The irony of someone "reconsidering military and civilian purchases" which are being made, or will be made, with our money is a real hoot – but the laughs are just starting!

There’s just one conceivable answer to the suggestion that Israel should start "selling sensitive equipment that Washington opposes distributing internationally": when did they ever stop? The Israelis have been stealing U.S. technology and selling it to the Chinese – for one example – for years, much to Washington’s chagrin.

in 2005-this is not from the post:
Americans demanded that Israel fess up to the details of more than 60 secret agreements with the Red Chinese. u s technology transfers to Israel. In the guise of "foreign aid" have been funneled through the back door to Beijing via Tel Aviv – and the U.S. was trying to put a stop to it .
Israeli officials at that time said that in the case of the UAVs- they were merely repairing older model drones that had been legally exported from the U.S. to Israel. The reality is that these drones received a major upgrade – using technology developed by the U.S. and shared with the Israelis. A few months after the sanctions were imposed some Chinese general was boasting about how easy it would be to nuke a few American cities. The neocons were demanding a bigger defense budget to counter a purported threat from Beijing – one their Israeli friends are helping to create.

I still watch Tweety. He may be annoying - but the guys knows his stuff.

I know that long before anyone - even Obama - he was saying that the 2008 election was going to come down to one thing: Change.

One last thing Bethy. Take a look at the Sears Price Match First. I'm not a big fan of Best Buy either. If you find something you like take the ad in to Sears. If you like Sears.

http://bit.ly/10pOGA

bethy:

You are going to want to get an LCD - instead of an HD tv. (Both have high-definition pictures - but LCD's tend to last longer.)

Sorry bethy.

I mean - if you get an HD tv - you are going to want to get an LCD rather than a Plasma.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/tvs-services/hdtv/tv-types/lcd-vs.-plasma-3-08/overview/lcd-vs-plasma-tvs-ov.htm?Extkey=SY95PI0&CMP=KNC-CROVMYSSP&HBX_OU=51&PK=yssp

(I am a liberal arts guy myself - I learned this from my techie friend...)

Jamie mentioned on Countdown! Or at least her word count.

don:

"Warren made an interesting point, a lot of Obama and Clinton's foreign policy work would have been in vain if Bush hadn't been in office first."

I can't take credit (and not entirely sure I want to) - as I was quoting the article I linked.

But I agree with much of what you said. And I have always made the point that I think a lot of good can come from Bush's misguided invasion of Iraq.

From all I learned - the key to peace in the Middle East is Israel-Palestine. But even though the last 5-6 Presidents have made efforts to move the process along - we didn't really have a dog in the fight.

Now that our troops are indefinitely over in the Middle East - the US has a real incentive to make some progress.

And nothing of any real consequence happens in this world without America doing the heavy lifting.

As far as foreign policy - Charlie Rose is the best resource I have come across. And Farheed Z's GPS on Sunday - has some good guests.

don1one

Coulda been me or Craig might have been watching BBC America or he might read The Telegraph -

It was one of those stories that pops up in your reader and says, "Hi There, I'm newsy and cute for one minute of your program. Use me please please please! -- item waves hand in air and begs for attention"

A 26 foot tv Dark Lord? Wow, opening a drive in?

Posted by: don1one Author Profile Page | June 10, 2009 8:38 PM

No, you're right; I'll accept that criticism.

Fair weather friends:

Anti-Americanism in Israel

Israeli minister wants sanctions on US

Obama gets tough with the Israelis – or, rather, talks about getting tough – and hilarity ensues:

"In a sign of growing concern in Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s government over U.S. President Barack Obama’s Middle East policies, Minister-without-Portfolio Yossi Peled proposed Israeli sanctions on the U.S. in a letter to cabinet ministers on Sunday.

"In the 11-page letter, obtained by the Jerusalem Post from a minister on Monday, Peled recommends steps Israel can take to compensate for the shift in American policy, which he believes has become hostile to Israel."

Solar:

Israel has its far right - just like us. And Obama represents a huge threat to them.

I think that the old guard of the far right - like RushNewtCheney - will go down kicking and screaming - and slowly be replaced by more progressive (yet still conservative) types like Jindal, Huntsman, Pawlenty.

Solar

Here is the JPost article

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371046569&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

One note. This is the only paper reporting yet it was picked up by Huffington (left) and Lucianne (right) which seems to indicate that antisemitism is growing on both left and right as mentioned earlier today in a CNN analysis

Also, a "Minister without portfolio" is one that has only an advisory role and holds no official position in the government nor heads any department.

Warren

I know that you are right. Im all for Israel. They are our friends in the area. The thing right now is that Im concerned about what they might do while Netanyahu is around. He could get that whole area into some kind of conflict without any problem.

As far as Obama being a big threat to them-good. I hope that he is one to the lobby here also. The more that I learn about that area. The more Im sure that no ones hands are clean. Including ours. Just want the power to hold off for a while so they can have a chance at peace-is all:

Bottom line. If there is any trouble over there. Im 100% for Israel. No matter what. Meanwhile all I want is for the bully in the hood to take it easy. No one is going to destroy them. Yes tale action when they are attacked-but not all out invasions.

What I meant by attacked. Was not a strike by Iran or someone that is not from the Lebanon s side. They should retaliate-but proportional. Not overwhelmingly that it hurts the civillians.

Just playing dark lord, not a criticism. I've been programming all day, I needed some fun. As I've mentioned before I normally hate to nit-pick on a board.

Come on Jamie, take credit and be proud!

Warren, I think Bush started out with good intentions on Israel/Palestine. We wouldn't know Abbas if Bush hadn't promoted him. The evangelicals are the ones that torpedoed the effort, and it was all down hill from there.

I have mixed feelings. I see muslims as people, having lived in a middle east country. My father's family was Jewish and emigrated from Russia to escape the pograms. I believe in Israel, I don't like a lot of their government's policies. I think they are an economy based on conflict.

Arab state's in the area have just made the situation worse.

However, I think our real friends in the area are Jordan and Turkey. I wouldn't trust any of the other governments as far as US security.

BTW, anyone else follow Queen Raina on twitter? Interesting perspectives on life.

Oh, forgot something. New contest. The world's largest furniture showroom.

http://www.furniturelandsouth.com/vote-for-color.php

I've been going to Best Buy forever, and have 'never' had a problem with them. When I suggested you look there Bethy, I just meant to get information. I would buy from them, or somewhere else if it was cheaper, but I'd definitely start there. That is the only store that I've been to, whether for a computer, TV or whatever else, that has knowledgeble people that can explain things to me in easy to understand language. Also, they have a beautiful selection of all the latest to come on the market. Discuss your concerns with them about your camera and cable company.

Once you figure it all out, then buy it wherever you want to. I know I'll never buy a computer anywhere else though. They have the best prices and newest models.

Solar:

My theory is that if Bebe does not step up to the plate. Then we will just have to wait for the next leader.

Peace in the MidEast will not happen until we reach a workable solution with Israel-Pales. So we can't stop working towards that goal until it is accomplished. With or without Bebe.

But I actually think he is the perfect person for the job. And think he is handling himself well. Obama and America can be the peacemakers - but Bebe can't just cave. By taking a hard line - he may be able to get buy-in from the hardliners when and if he ever does sign on to an agreement.

(We need to come up with a good abbreviation for Israel-Palestine...)

don

Don't follow the Queen on Twitter - but (I think) I heard her on Rachel talking about ridding the world of nukes. She was very well-spoken.

(Once we solve the Israel-Pales. conflict - we should set our rights on nukes.)

"set our sights"

The Queen tweets comments about things like getting her boys to wear ties to meet the Pope and her husband playing at the controls of a helicopter.

Jamie
How long before all the public relations efforts in the world fail to mask the ugly reality? And the reality is this: Israel has been a burden. not always a benefit to the U.S. by giving them our unconditional support. Without strings. We have ironically set ourselves up for some blowback from Israel’s direction – and it isn’t pretty.!

But I haven't read Huffington post since the elections. Unless someone points out something very interesting. Unless Craig said something over there.

2 Israelis 'voted in Lebanese elections'

from press tv. com

Lebanese Security Forces have arrested two Israeli women over their participation in Lebanon's general elections earlier this week.

Two sisters, Josephine, 67, and Georgette Mussa, 69, who entered the country ahead of the June 7 elections, were arrested in Beirut Airport before leaving the country, Al-Manar reported on Wednesday.

According to the report, Georgette confessed that she took part in the elections in Beirut. Josephine, who carries an American passport in addition to her Israeli and Lebanese ones, however denied participating in the vote.

The sisters who are residents of Israel were being interrogated by the Lebanese security forces, the report added.

The Western-backed March 14 bloc led by Saad Hariri won the general elections.

Warren

I thought about it. Good point. But I think that in one or two more weeks he will cave in. That is if O is serious. If he threatens to pull our $. Which I think should be done anyway. We should reassess this every once in a while. As it is now-it is treated like a payment that is due no?

Chloe,

A neighbor got a pic of the fellow causing the excitement here yesterday afternoon.

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu286/cithorn/HPIM0716.jpg

Carol

Are you sure that little feller isn't just one of the ones that got away from your party last Sat.? Did any of the beavers escape?mmm mmm good eating.

NEW THREAD.. http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/06/palin-vs-letterman.html

Nope, I think all my peeps were all at work this week and I guess the deputies couldn't find anything to arrest him for because he wasn't in jail today.

Maybe he is the cure for those beavs??

Well Solar

"burden" or not, I'll stick with Israel. Arabs screwed up with they backed Hitler. They have repeatedly attacked Israel without cause and then whine when they get whipped.

When they want to join the 21st Century as Egypt has done and work to create two states existing peacefully, fine. Until then (expletive)

NEW THREAD