Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Great points, Craig. I had forgotton about this ballot situation:

"despite an effort by then-Gov. Jeb Bush -- the president's brother -- to destroy them

DAMN! Those zany Brits! The gift that keeps on giving.

The Letter of Last Resort

http://www.slate.com/id/2208219/

"There is a real chance that Bush should never have become president."

And there is eight years of proof that he shouldn't have.

Ed -- you know, as I listen to the commentators these days, I have to shake my head. WHERE were these Bush-critics all along? Nowhere to be seen. It took Katrina for any real criticism....and that criticism wasn't immediate.

Question:

This is for all those who believe its alright to torture those in our custody at Gitmo or other prisons that we are holding prisoners like Abu Ghraib.

Would they still say it is alright to torture those in our custody at Gitmo and other sites if those prisoners were Jews?

I don't think so.

"results that gave Bush a 537-vote margin out of six million that were cast"

wonder what some of those who today are opposed to seating franken said back then. probably called gore all kinds of names for dragging this into court.

Anon -- why do you assume that anyone here this morning condones torture?

Where were the critics?

Patsi,

I wish I had some time and space to develop my answer more clearly, but for a shorthand answer, the "good" journalists were incorrectly trying to be fair.

My son makes a compeling argument that fairness is a wrong-headed idea. Report it as you see it, and if the President or some other politician lies to you, call him/her on it.

We can bet that the Rush Limbaugh's of the world will thrive on doing that for the next four or more years, depending on how successful the Democrats are in retaining power.

Oh, and by the way -- I thought of you when I posted that Letter of Last Resort, anon. It fits wwith many of your concerns.

ghosts of the recent past:
"No Votes for Women – No Census" stuck on a printed message across the return, with a handwritten addition: "No persons here, only women," while a third declares: "If I am intelligent enough to fill in this paper, I am intelligent enough to put a cross on a voting paper."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/13/1911-census-goes-online

"We can bet that the Rush Limbaugh's of the world will thrive on doing that for the next four or more years, depending on how successful the Democrats are in retaining power."

Ed -- I keep wondering whether the Limbaugh and Hannity crowd will grow in power, or wane now. (And I think I probably agree with your son. There are times when both sides don't cut it. Because one is so clearly wrong.)

Speaking of the media -- the same ones going on and on about Bill Clinton's library donations....where were they when Bush 2 was running for president? Did any of them hound him about where his father's money was coming from? About his foreign money pals? No. Not a word that I remember.

good morning gang....

patd... that's exactly what I was thinking when I heard Coleman was taking the results of his election with Franken to court....

of course voting matters...... and how people vote matters.....
if not..... why bother.....

Jan... maybe we should buy an entire shoe store...... throw it all at him..... work boots, loafers, sneakers, stilettos.....

and while my head is still stuck in olden days, isn't it interesting to remember that king george iii ran up such a tremendous war debt (french & indian war) that his subsequent tax levy on the colonies resulted in a fight for independence? didn't he later go mad?

speaking of going mad, anyone notice the pres's change in demeanor at yesterday's press conference. unusual gestures, phrasing and voice levels. half expected him to break into a tap dance again.

EdVB...
the Swiftboaters come to mind when you say "why even give them a voice?"....
and Ann Coulter does too....

Patsi...

Because Morning Joe Scarborough was once again defending Bush using torture.

He believes it's alright to torture those in our custody.

Would Joe be willing to be waterboarded on his show and then tell everyone that he wasn't tortured? I think not.

But if it was Jews being tortured I bet he would be screaming his head off about it.

That's why I put the question up.

I think it was Gore's big bad that he didn't aggressively challenge every absentee ballot that didn't exactly meet the requirements of Florida law. Especially the military absentee ballots with gross faults such as no postmark.

He could have been president if he hadn't caved.

"Would Joe be willing to be waterboarded on his show and then tell everyone that he wasn't tortured? I think not."

Agreed, anon. And you are right about our willingness to torture certain people. The problem with that is how easily the public mind can switch from one enemy to the next. All it takes is a media campaign to turn people into gay-haters, Jew-haters, women-haters, "Old Europe" haters.

A lot of the problem about water-boarding is the typical press referral to it as being simulated drowning. It is absolutely not simulated; the victim is in fact drowning during the torture.

Professor Deborah Dickerson coming up on Imus.....

mornin'.

Yes, it is hard to believe that anyone could have taken the disatrous beginning of the Bush presidency - and go nowhere but downhill from there. It's a rare president who fails to live up to the soft prejudice of NO expectations - but then GWB is that rare president. Congratulations, George - may your retirement be as magical as your presidency has been.

a-p, MoJo is just starting to spew the RNC talking points again. For a while there, Ithought he had come around to a moderate posititon, but what's that old saying about a cat and its spots? They have begun to use the "aggressive interrogation" lingo again - that's OK, we all know it's torture they're talking about. We've discussed its lack of effectiveness ad nauseum - and only the guys with the grins on their faces defend the practice - with made up BS about thwarting attacks thanks to info they got.

Oh, and lest I forget - great job Harry. You've managed to show even those who have supported your leadership that you can be strident AND ineffectual. Time to give up the leadership post - before you do real damage to your party and the country - if Blago can outflank you, McConnell is going to play you like a fiddle.

On Imus, she's as good at articulating why and how things happen and the feelings involved as is Bethy when she explains things here.

Good morning lovely people! Excellent points, Craig. I see a lot of people who are blaming the media and journalist for their lack of criticism, however, I would also say that to some extent we need to blame ourselves. How many people did not vote in the 2000 election? How many people follow the acts of our government with any interest beyond just reading the paper or watching TV? How is civics taught in our schools? To make self-governance as boring as possible for teens? With the exception of the people on this list (even those we disagree with or who drive us all crazy) most people do not know squat about their government. Proof? The election of 2004.

I can only hope that the long-drawn-out election cycle of 2006-08 has made people more engaged. I live in the DC bubble, where nearly everyone gets a paycheck from Uncle Sam. Even those people have no clue of government beyond the scope of their own gray cubicles. But at least they know there will be an Inauguration in DC next week.

Yesterday I was placing an order with a company in Minnesota. The woman taking my order was telling me about the big storms out there and how the schools were closing and how her co-workers couldn't make it to work. I said that I was near DC in Virginia and wondered if the same storm was headed my way. I said, "The weather can do what it will do as long as there isn't any precipitation next Tuesday. I would like sunny and in the 40s for Tuesday." She asked me why I cared about next Tuesday. When I told her it was because of all the people coming in for the Inauguration she asked me, "Oh. Do they always have it there?" Only every four years.

Maybe she's onto something. Maybe we should have the Inauguration like the Super Bowl move it around the country -- preferably to the warm weather locations.

Maybe not.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-188962

Patsi,

That Slate article is great reading. I sort of have my own "doomsday" idea where one of those fun and wacky mid east folks decides to drop a small nuke (i.e. Hamas on Israel or Taliban on Afghanistan)... How do you hit back and who would grab the opportunity to do it?

Flatus, you can make that statement about Kerry, but you can't make that statement about Gore. There were parallel tracks operating, and Gore was on the wrong track. His folks on the ground were aggressively fighting against the county and state (remember Kitty and the twins?) election folks while the RNC and DNC were fighting it out in court - which is what ultimately prevailed when the legal track ended at SCOTUS.

Flatus...
I find it hard to lay blame at Gore's feet..... he "caved" after the Supreme Court ruling.... how does one challenge the SC....

and when I look at the big picture.... I can see a way to say that maybe this country needed someone like Bush..... it usually takes an addict to hit rock bottom before they see a need to help themselves.... maybe this country needed someone like Bush in order to finally see how bad it can be to elect someone just because..... for shallow reasons like we'd like to share a beer with someone.... it teaches us that voting does matter and for whom and what we vote for matters.....

maybe once and for all it teaches us that government does matter.....

Pogo.....you meant the legal track ended at SCROTUS, right?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-188972

patd

If you only knew how long I have been waiting for that 1911 census. The on line hours are going to be my birthday present to myself as it now means I will be able to find all of my grandfather's family.

Pogo, my memory may be faulty, but I believe he caved on the military absentee ballots by not challenging those that were faulty and, IMO, fraudulent.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-188976

Patd

King George had a genetic disease Porphyria whose symptoms included bouts of insanity

http://people.virginia.edu/~jlc5f/charlotte/porphyria.html

bush/cheney do seem to have awakened a large segment of the populace to the depravity of general republican "principles"........for the time being anyway.......

Good morning all, I never forgot that whole fiasco, didnt used the p word in conjunction with his name for 4 years. Just don't know how he got reelected. Karl Rove's genius? Still boggles my mind.

jamie, the lead in his wine didn't help either.
http://www.leadpoison.net/prevent/lifestyle.htm

"Just don't know how he got reelected"

oldsea, ask some of the people in ohio. was'nt there an epidemic nationwide that infected some voting machines and their masters?

Flatus

You are right about the military ballots but as the scotus made the call they didn't get counted anyway.
The thing that irritated me at the time was that Gore didn't insist that there be a state wide hand recount.

I think the thing we really need to remember is there is a process laid out in the florida law and the constitution and the supreme court decided to circumvent that process and make themselves the king makers. It will probably go down as one of the worst moments for the court.

Jack

ohio 2004 election scandal still live story
http://www.atlargely.com/2008/10/how-afraid-is-k.html

patd

Reading that short article added to my knowledge base. I didn't know Queen Anne had Porphyria as well. That explains all of her miscarriages and why the Churchills were the virtual rulers of England while she was queen. Time to go digging for more info. :-)

job opportunity
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5isjR8iopWyjk0utgVIClRKYqfnHgD95M6VKO2

sturg - since Gore got dicked real good,, that would be right. Sorry for the typo.

The latest 3 Onion columns are terrific.

http://www.theonion.com/content/whitehousewar/campaignnews/1

Flatus - that was an area of contention that wasn't likely to swing the vote in Gore's favor according to many at the time - and it was an awful position to be in - urging the rejection of military ballots because the military can't get it's f*cking mail act together and put post marks on things soldiers send to the states? Gore could have pressed the point and potentially picked up a few votes, but that ain't what lost the election for Gore. At the time, Gore was behind by 930 votes and there were only 535 ballots that would be put back into contention over the postmark kerfuffle.

http://dir.salon.com/story/politics/trail/2000/11/21/trail_mix/

" Just don't know how he got reelected. Karl Rove's genius? Still boggles my mind."

Same here. I remember at one party before the 2004 election, I talked with a couple of women who were Democrats....they BOTH had early voted for Bush!

One of them said: "We're at war. You can't change horses in mid-stream"

My jaw damn near dropped to the floor.

Both of these women voted out of fear.

Great....so far we've come up with the media doesn't need to be unbiased and that dessenters shouldn't be given a voice.......you guys are amazing...if this was the old soviet union you'd all be lining up to imform on your neighbors......shame on you all........

At a White House breakfast this morning, President Bush, speaking with his mouth full of food, mumbled something unintelligible.

In unison, his three guests, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Scooter Libby said, “I beg your pardon.”

Bush said, “Granted” and asked for a pen.

The Bush economy - brought home. I got the year end statement from LP's 529 college savings plan. The $$ that were put into it to fund his college (well, partly anyway) are now wort $.66. It was the top rated 529 in the country when we opened the account 2 years agpo. My dad is rolling over in his grave - he was the source of the money. Thanks a bunch George. Hope that retirement home in Dallas burns to the ground.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189004

Patsi -- These wouldn't be the same women you knew who were working for HRC and then voted McCain/Palin?

I recently became the president of my local chapter of NOW. One of our projects is passage of the Equal Rights Amendment, and we had a teach-in on ERA at our last meeting. A group of new people came down from DC for the teach-in because they are interested in passage of ERA and had once been a part of the legendary 3rd Floor at Hillaryland in Arlington. At our meeting after the meeting they shared with me that they all voted or MCain/Palin. They are fully aligned with PUMA, which now means People United Means Action.

I suggested that we just stick to working on ERA -- a topic we can fully agree on.

well, jax, those discussions were before I signed on. How's this - the media has never been unbiased - why shoudl we insist they start now? - and dissenters have always had a voice (only now they can vacation in beautiful areas of the Mideast courtesy of the CIA travel service).

"These wouldn't be the same women you knew who were working for HRC and then voted McCain/Palin? "

No. As a matter of fact, both those women were ardent Obama supporters from the beginning....and now embarrassed by their Bush votes.

Diva - Congrats on the NOW post. Good luck with the ERA effort. I'll be curious to see if it can get traction this time 'round.

Pogo,
I just have to keep telling myself that you're a lawyer and that ideals aren't really your thing....it's not your fault ....you're just the product of a cynical environment...:)

but yes I do expect the media to be unbiased and I do expect that dissenters receive a voice.....it's cheesy and simplistic but I do believe in them still

Jax....
we said liars shouldn't be given an equal voice..... people who make up facts shouldn't be given an equal voice....

as for legitimate dissenters..... you do realize most of us are political junkie baby boomers..... I'd bet most of us dissented plenty when we were in our 20s...... to say that we are against dissent is laugh out loud too funny.....

Some days I think my brain is on backwards. :-) The hearings on Clinton: Senator Lugar says, "By 2050 the world's population will grow to the point where we will need to double current world food supplies".

Given the damage already being done by a global population of almost 7 billion people and expecting it to be 10 billion by 2050, wouldn't it make more since to work at decreasing the number of people needing to be fed?

Renee,
Those are exactly the same reasonings that the Soviets and Nazis used to stifle dissent.......we say that you a lying so we'll lock you up......you're not a lgitimate dissenter because we say so......

Your true colors are showing......
the one time baby boomer dissenters of the past have become the judgmental, restrictive, censoring forces of today......

"yes I do expect the media to be unbiased and I do expect that dissenters receive a voice.....it's cheesy and simplistic but I do believe in them still"

jax, am proud of you. but because we all at times fall short of the glory so to speak, journalists should disclose their bias to the reader when they are themselves aware of them. that's hard to do when you don't even know you are biased. however, jax, that's no reason to call pogo names.

Patd, Pogo,
I'm just messing with Pogo...believe me he gives as well as he gets....:)

Excellent points raised by Ed VB

Odd the side which has benefited most from the news media being fair is the side opposed to the "fairness doctrine."

Although we didn't really know it at the time, final certified results show that the late-arriving federal absentees were indeed the decisive votes in the 2000 election in Florida.

Certified votes cast as of Election Day (Nov. 7)
Bush: 2,911,215
Gore: 2,911,417
GORE MARGIN: +202

Federal absentee votes arriving by mail after Nov. 7 and certified Nov. 17
Bush: 1,571
Gore: 836
BUSH MARGIN: +739

FINAL GRAND TOTAL:
Bush: 2,912,790
Gore: 2,912,253
BUSH MARGIN: +537

And Lieberman is the one who caved on national TV, dismissing concerns about screwy postmarks and saying all the late-arriving absentees should be counted regardless.

Here's the web address where you can see for yourself:
https://doe.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=11/7/2000&DATAMODE=

You have to Select Office: "U.S. President" in the pulldown menu on the left to get the data.

Jack and Pogo, thanks for clearing my fog--'preciate it.

Pogo, our two oldest grandkids went down 11-pct which is quite tolerable considering. I have them in Vanguard Wellesely--a fund that has never cost me a night's sleep.

Jack, I'm content on how BRK has performed. The kicker on that one is the $100B cash position that Buffett has available for investing at the opportune time. The Chinese electric car that might be imported is one of BRK's joint ventures.

Jax -- comparing that earlier conversation to Soviets and Nazis is BS and you know it.

In the first place, in the run up to Iraq and with Bush's foibles going unchallanged, it was more the media sucking up to power than anything else. If anything, the other side was never covered.

Given your analysis, everytime racist comments are challanged in the media, we should make sure that David Duke shows up to say, "Well, let me tell you about the glories of white power."

what's with you people this morning? what's all this mooning over dissenters' rights, war criminals and illigitimate presidencies when there's a contest out there to be an aussie island caretaker for $100,000 for 6 months. contest ends 2/22, job begins 7/1. get your priorities in order!
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5isjR8iopWyjk0utgVIClRKYqfnHgD95M6VKO2

Patsi,

Anytime someone suggests stifling speech because they don't like the message or the deliverer I will always attack it.....

I take it seriously and I do not think its BS. Its exactly how things like that start.....by being permissive...

And as Pogo pointed out up higher, not all of the late-arriving absentees were contested because they had screwy postmarks. Most were properly postmarked.

But I just think it remains fascinating that an election with 6 million votes cast was decided because Bush so heavily dominated a microscopically small subset of 2,411 votes that weren't even "in the house" yet when Election Day ended.

Makes you wonder about the provenance of many of those votes -- whether they were properly postmarked or not.

No matter how we regret that, what's been done, has been done. Bush was in the driver's seat for last 8 years of poverty, misery, war and war crimes. Instead of rehashing what might have been, we have to make sure that Bush and his puppeteers are PUNISHED for everything they've done. Starting on first stolen election, through causing 9/11, through lies that started invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, through second stolen election, and ending with war crimes and authorization of torture. We cannot look forward without straightening up the past.

Thursday evening our state-side granddaughter gave birth to a beautiful baby girl named Heaven. 8.0-pounds and 20-1/2 inches. The baby tried to be born with one arm above her head. The poor kid had to have a cesarean.

Our two daughters and our granddaughter' s brother (who drove down from Michigan) spent most of Saturday with her at the hospital. They took many wonderful pictures showing the baby and her smiling, but physically drained, mom.

"Makes you wonder about the provenance of many of those votes -- whether they were properly postmarked or not."

Lard, I couldn't agree more. I've seen dirty tricks in action; this one would have been child's play in the eyes of a professional.

I considered the election lost as soon as James Baker stepped in.

Pogo,

The realities of our gov't shouldn't keep us from constantly demanding that they live up to the ideals.
It will never be perfect but to accept less because it's a reality is unacceptable....

As for the media....I'm all for RW or LW shows that are upfront about their bias. It's the groups that purport to be unbiased and aren't that I have issue with.

Ping...

As has been pointed out so often, Bush's claim that he kept us safe from terrorism has one big exception: 9/11/01. Think he was cutting wood or something that day.

Meanwhile, I think we can all agree that he kept us safe from Democracy for eight years.

Flatus...LOL on your last comment.

After all, how hard could it be to tinker with a postal meter on an aircraft carrier?

jax, I hope I get as well as I give, and seek to give as well as I get. I was not offended by your post - even if you had meant all truly and honestly and such. You're not the first person to call me a cynic (that would have been my mother I think). Sio if calling me cynical is calling me names, you're in good company in my book. :-)

Just so I'm clear - I'm not cynical about the press - I am disappointed that there is so much invective thrown at the mainstream press - which I don't find as particularly biased as they are accused of being - the press has the right to be critical of the government - fairly or unfairly - and the government has no right to suppress opinion - whether by the press or citizens - regardless of the content of the opinion or whether we are at war. All efforts to suppress dissent by the government are unconstitutional in my opinion. The Fairness Doctrine - unconstitutional. Requirement of "parade permits" for demonstrations - unconstitutional. Sequestration of reporters at political conventions - unconstitutional. Ejecting people from political gatherings for wearing t-shirts for the opposing candidate - unconstitutional.

Hope that clears up any potential misunderstanding.

Oh, and sorry for the rant. (Not really). :-)

Renee,

We don't have a perfect system....but last I checked the Enron guys are getting their news behind bars.....We do have penalties for lying to the public......

You can't remain free and stifle dissent.....If its fraudulent you have remedies in our laws to catch it and punish it but you can't stifle it up front.

Bush is a great target –
Some deserved
Some not
Some he brings as a complacent leader
Some incompetence

" It's the groups that purport to be unbiased and aren't that I have issue with."

ah.... I agree with you on the above statement....

as for stifling it upfront..... I see your point.... but once a group that claims to be legitimate is proven not to be.... such as the Swiftboaters..... to continue to put them on shows such as MTP is, IMO, to give them legitimacy.... and I have an issue with that.....

AL GORE has the blood of thousands of US soldiers and hundreds of thousands of oversea civlians on his fat self-involved Quixotic head

BECAUSE HE CAST THE SINGLE VOTE THAT INSTALLED GWBush President

Damn him
Damn him .... and Kerry too the 2004 WUSS

Flatus

That cash has made buffet the "payday loan" of wall street. I was reading an article a couple of weeks ago. He has become the lender of last resort for several big companies and like the payday loan people he charges for it.

Jack

pogo, jax called you a "lawyer" in tones dripping with sarcasm, inuendo, and those winks and elbow pokes that say "you know what i mean"..... it wasn't what he said, exactly, but the way he said it. sometimes an expletive comes clothed in sheep skin.

Renee,

I'm not up on the swiftboaters and I'm not sure what standard you use to determine legitimacy. But I'm fairly sure that if they somehow libeled they would be charged.

As I said I'm not up on it I don't think that they have been sued.

oops, forgot the :)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189012

Thank you, Pogo. I was a bit reluctant to take it on, but after this last election I decided that I really needed to be more involved in building a strong organization to work for women's equality. I was a bit complacent about the ERA, until it was pointed out to me that women aren't mentioned anywhere int he US Constitution, save the 19th amendment to guarantee women's suffrage. The laws and policies that provide a stitched-together network to somewhat bring equality to women can be removed with the stroke of a pen or a simple majority vote.

When the foreign policy of the US requires women to be included in the constitutions of newly built nations, why is our own constitution lacking similar language pertaining to women?

patd,
I've got a lot of lawyer friends and they tell me quite often that they operate in a cynical environment. That's all I meant by the statement......but feel free to read in whatever your heart desires.......

Jax...
the person who's been libeled must do the suing..... many times they don't...
it's their choice not to go through a long protracted court battle.....
it doesn't mean they weren't lied about though.....

I've spent way too much time on this machine this morning.....
time to get back to work..... thanks for the interesting debate....

Actually, there really is no question about the votes in Florida. As the Keating Report clearly shows (google on it) when you scroll down to "Results," if all the votes in Florida had been counted, Gore won the state using ANY of the counting standards. There's a chart of results on about page six of the report. People should check it out for themselves and then ask the question: why did the media distort the findings of the Keating Report?

Gotta..run.....biz calls.....been fun

Divalicias @ 8:15
Here's "Yer Atta Girl"
" Maybe we should have the Inauguration like the Super Bowl move it around the country -- preferably to the warm weather locations."

>>>>>>> The Doritos Inaugural Half Time Report

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189055

I could go to a theater and watch MSNBC coverage of the inauguration?
Pay extravagant money to watch tweety and Olberman expound in all their brilliance?(insert sarcasm alert)

Why?
Are they giving away free booze?

Jack

Just to jump back in while I have a few minutes, I started by saying I wished I had time to give a more complete answer to Patsi and try to lay out my son's position. It clearly is not to stifle dissent, but more a belief that being fair for a journalist does not mean sitting back and letting talking heads from either side misrepresent the facts or their opponent's position.

I seldom watch Sean Hannity, but if you have a strong enough stomach to watch him for a few minutes, you'll see that he occasionally speaks to people, who don't share his opinion. He usually cuts them off, or steers the conversation to one of the two or three facts he boned up on today that represent his side of an issue. On the other hand, members of the so-called liberal media often go out of their way to give the other side room to make their case.

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts. A good journalist knows the difference.

"It's the groups that purport to be unbiased and aren't that I have issue with."

jax, see, that's where we differ - but ONLY if you're suggesting that govt. has a role in correcting that hidden bias or misleading statements about lack of bias. If it'sjust a personal opinion of yours, have at - it's your right to take issue with the press. I don't give a rat's ass about whether a newser says it's fair and balanced, unbiased, what have you. The proof is in the pudding. I think it's our job to ferret out the bias and believe the sources we think are the least biased (or most biased in favor of our own position more likely).

Yesterday it was good to see Helen sitting in the front row watching another president go.
Another notch in her notebook.

jack - or you could just watch it on MSNBC - channel 51 here on TWC.

Ed - you aren't suggesting that Hannity is journalist are you?

Pogo

If they are giving away free booze it might be worth it.

It would have to be a lot of booze, there are some things that should not be done while sober.

Jack

theater.........melba moore......"my purlie"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPweJKrfLBE

"pogo, jax called you a "lawyer" in tones dripping with sarcasm, inuendo, and those winks and elbow pokes that say "you know what i mean"..... it wasn't what he said, exactly, but the way he said it. sometimes an expletive comes clothed in sheep skin."

Yes ----and mostly ends with a-----Laughs :-) but pogo just saw thru that with this

"Hope that clears up any potential misunderstanding.

Oh, and sorry for the rant. (Not really). :-)"

Dissenting voices ----doesn't workers have any (maybe just one of them) when they were told that they should not except any gov. programs----help from their fellow citizens thru their taxes they pay,,,,and the taxes that ,,all workers pay,,,,,and I don't mean welfare,or any of the wrong headed ones---abuse of tax dollars---

About the media----Jax is right they are biased,,,,,and the R's used that to their advantage every time-----people in general don't like the media,,,so they whent along with the idea that they leaned too much to the left.

Patsi----I read that letter of last resort----so much that is hidden from us,,,,the author in at the ending asks us "what we would do"? going to reread it and also the links in there to the articles --------now I have a lot of pondering to do about that,,,,,but I will just say, that --that is one of the reasons that I despise religion----If some nut case over in the middle east get a hold off one,??? and back and forth,,,,and there is Jamie's solution to the over population problem.

Padt----I don't know which post to thank you for today,,,,so just thanks for all of em, today's--past ,,and future ones!!

Bush stole the 2004 election as well, but no one talks about that. Kerry won in a landslide. And Obama won by double his recorded 9.5m vote margin.

It's all here.

2004
http://www.geocities.com/electionmodel/FurtherConfirmationOfaKerryLandslide.htm

2008
http://www.geocities.com/electionmodel/2008ElectionAnalysisLinks.htm

The lesson here is, the next time a guy steals an election in broad open daylight, with the help of his brother, the governor and the secretary of state serving double duty as his state, co-chair, scream bloody murder. And, the media let him get away with it.

fa'give 'im, Lawd, fo' he know not what he do.

Two events in the last 50 years that have changed the course of history for the US:

1. November 22, 1963

2. The theft of the 2000 election by the so-called SCOTUS.

3. Eisenhower's completion of the Interstate highway system.

which caused the depletion of the railway system......and put morty korzillions of belching autos on the roads.......and kilt rte. 66.........and hwy 17 the ocean highway.........maine to floriday.......

Solar,

If all I want is comments about being a lawyer that are dripping with sarcasm - I don't have to come here - I can get that anywhere. It's part of the job sort of. Funny hoow my profession is held in such disdain those out side it - and inside it.

So why do lawyers keep their top shirt button buttoned and wear ties? To keep their foreskins from sliding up over their faces.

If I took this stuff seriously I's have to wear Kevlar underwear.

pogo......some of my best friends are lawyers......

. . .how . .

. . . I'd . . .

damn.

"Anytime someone suggests stifling speech because they don't like the message or the deliverer I will always attack it....."

I take your point, Jax...but taken to its logical conclusion, presenting all POV ends up with ten thousand maniacs screaming.

"when the nightly news or a show such as Meet The Press...... which are supposedly professional news services.... allows people who are paid to confuse the facts and lie for their own purposes (usually profit driven), how does this serve us?....."

Well said, Renee.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189047

Jax, The threshold for a "public person" to charge someone with libel is very very high and often not the wisest way to handle a situation where an individual or group is lying about you.

The Swiftboaters were proven to be liars almost from the beginning. Either they weren't where they could no the facts or if they were in the area, their versions were contradicted by others (in greater numbers) who were there.

Despite that they were given constant forums to spout those lies and intimations, particularly on right wing radio, but often quoted in legitimate news programs for the purpose of "balance".

You now see this problem that was just in its infancy then exploding all over the Internet and in email chain letters to the point that it would actually be impossible to determine who was doing the actual lying. The best that you can hope for is that the worst of the worst is publicly debunked on places such as SNOPES on the net and in news in newspapers and on TV.

sturg - mine too.

Jack, no free booze for you. And that popcorn - large with extra butter - $11.50.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189073

Sturgeion, Now you're making me cry. I have photos of my dad driving Route 66 in 1952. It is on my bucket list to drive from coast to coast. I'm going to try to do as much of it as possible on "blue line" highways and 66 where it still exists.

Pogo -- ROFL -- lawyers know all the best lawyer jokes.

"I take your point, Jax...but taken to its logical conclusion, presenting all POV ends up with ten thousand maniacs screaming"

Great band, that.

Patsi, we know them all - I just remember the best ones - the ones that get that initial cringe out of me.

Pogo

Like I said before ---I usually mind my own biz,,,,but when it comes to the attitude that he takes about his workers,,,,that gets my blood going a little,,,I just finished talking to my atty,,,,a Jewish fella ---Yunice is his last name---just called me to have breakfast with him next wk,,,,just to shoot the bull,,,,he probably wants to see how I am doing,,,,so the foreskin example applies to him also----but only (as in 90% of attys) in court ---or when they are representing your interest,,,,,I wouldn't want it any other way,,,,He would like it it the courts would make the plantif responsible for all costs,,,,I tell him yes,,,but should,,,than be more free quality ones that defend the people that could not afford a quality atty???

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189066

STurge, You are taking me down memory road today. In a poem I wrote about my mother and her love of cultures other than her own.

Years later in Purlie I heard a line,
"When white folks aint watchin' Black is fun"
And remembered sitting on the stoop at night
Trading stories that today we wouldn't tell
But they told the same kind of tales to her
And when she died they were there
big bosomed comforting me
unlike the decorous pats of family
She was loved because she didn't care.
I still don't.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189081

Pogo

That would be torture , imo, and obama said he is stopping all that stuff.

Pogo,

Good point about Hannity. I used him because I wanted to show a bad example. He fills that bill on many levels, but I don't think even he would try to call himself a journalist.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/steven-chu-eases-up-on-the-gas-price-pedal/?hp

So Chu is drawing fire for stating two apparently inconsistent positions in different contexts - both likely true. (And search as I might - While I see him acknowledging the role of fuel prices in the recession, I don't see him calling for lower gas prices). Hell. I'm just happy to see someone who isn't an oil company executive as head of the DoEnergy. I give the guy an "A" for using his brain before talking - and for being more concerned with being factual than with being consistent for politic's sake.

Pogo

Only 50% of the lawyers are scum sucking low lifes. Just ask anyone and they will tel you their lawyer is an upstanding person who is only defending their interests. It is the other guy who hires scum sucking lowlife to represent him. :-)

Jack

Yesterday I posted a story about Vestas selling turbines to China. I left the google search open, and was just looking at the other stories there.

Here's a line we all can enjoy from the Las Vegas Sun -

" University system Chancellor Jim Rogers echoed the concern. “We have a first-class economy and a third-class culture,” he said. “And eventually a third-class culture will bring down a first-class economy.”

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/dec/21/we-talk-diversification-we-dont-accomplish-it/

I wish you folks in the press would stop acting like the stolen election of 2000 was an accident. It wasn't. Everything was in place to rob the American people of their rightful president right down to Bush's first cousin, John Ellis, in the Fox news center calling into question Gore's win in Florida. That bit of subterfuge gave the networks the out they needed to throw everything into the air.

It's been a proven fact since December 2001 that Gore won the presidency but now you have the nerve to come out and say the theft of our election, the hijacking of our democracy might have been the biggest mistake, that a criminal cabal was allowed by partisan Supreme Court judges to ruin our country, our reputation in thr world, and loot our treasury was a mistake?

This was a conscious act as was Nixon's subversion of the peace talks in '68 through Kissinger and Chennault and the Bush/Casey talks with the Iranians that resulted in our hostages in Iran staying there until Reagan was inaugurated.

To think any of these were mistakes is to continue the lie.

Actually Ed, Hannity does make that claim from time to time, but it isn't serious, and he freely admits to his bias as a Reagan conservative, and makes no apologies for it - not like O'Reilly, who loudly claims to be a journalist looking out for the little guy.

Jack - and the mega size Coke will be $4.75, and for only $6 more you can get a 2 pound Hershey Bar to go with it. The ticket to get is is free though. How can you possibly consider that extravagant?

lunch

"It's been a proven fact since December 2001 that Gore won the presidency "

Not really, He just got more votes. In the end only nine votes counted and there he clearly lost.

Jack

lol
I aways find it amusing when bigots give lectures on bigotry

"wonder what some of those who today are opposed to seating franken said back then. probably called gore all kinds of names for dragging this into court"

Patd, just a reminder that it was Bush that initiated the action although they sold the story that it was Gore.

Yep ---not all Jews are assholes like you

"the mega size Coke will be $4.75, and for only $6 more you can get a 2 pound Hershey Bar"

That mega size coke is more than $4.75 and that $6 Hershey bar is a lot smaller than 2 pounds.

And Hillary Clinton was swindled out of the nomination by her own party. What's your point, Craig?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189096

Jack's interpretation (or something closely approximating it) is really the only way I've been able to reconcile the whole thing and still sleep at night for the past eight years.

You basically have to broaden your concept of "winning an election" to a definition normally associated with winning a streetfight.

Under those terms, George W. Bush clearly did win.

CatBalu,
It's about time someone mentioned that. :)

The Most Intense Period Of The Recession Is Behind Us
"Surely, major job cuts will continue to put downward pressure on earnings for at least the next few months. However, the decline in gasoline prices alone is saving consumers $410 billion in annual expenditures. In size, on an annual basis, this is similar to the government "stimulus" measures now under consideration....

Meanwhile, despite the fear (some of which is stoked by political salesmanship) that the U.S. faces the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, initial claims for unemployment insurance have fallen dramatically, from 589,000 the week before Christmas to 467,000 in New Year's week."
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2009/01/12/recession-stimulus-unemployment-oped-cx_bw_0113wesburystein.html

Regarding the comments earlier about how the media treated Bush, I've been saying for years that "the media is the problem!" We no longer have a free press. The media is dominated large corporations who are naturally conservative and mostly Republican. Also, the FCC was passing regulations that were friendly to these media companies. So, the members of the media are not going to bite the hand that feeds them by writing critically abou the president, especially know how vindicative the Bush adminstration could be toward critics, such as lose your contact at the White House or your seat in the press room. The media owners are protecting their corporate profits and the high-paid reporters are protecting their salaries. It is all corrupted!

I think it's also important to remember that the Constitution really never does give the general public the right to vote for president. That helps ease the pain a bit too. For all we knew, they fully intended that states would appoint "electors" based on arm-wrestling matches or knife fights.

Lots of interesting new names and interesting posts on the comment thread today? Was Craig's blog featured elsewhere or are you folks normally just lurkers?

Either way. Good stuff, and welcome.

Lardass....
yeah.... we don't have an actual "right" to vote.... that's an important fact to bring up.....

Jack..... you are on a roll..... thanks for all the laughs!

Craig....
is your column of today cross referenced somewhere..... I haven't seen this many one time commentators since the Imus debacle....

Lardass.....
HA..... GMTA!

and yes.... welcome to all the new names....

Well folks

The Iraq war has gotten intensely personal

My nephew joined the navy last year. He signed up for the 6 year enlistment so he could become a sonar technician.
Seems they need sonar techs in the desert.
He is being deployed to Iraq for a year.

To quote my brother in law, "Crap!"

"the large print giveth and the small print taketh away"

Jack

“We can’t sit and watch for years as the American car industry is being kept running by billions in taxpayers’ money while we’re facing competitive disadvantages,” Merkel told reporters in Berlin today.

The heck it can't! Nothing like a foreigner telling us what we can't do to make me (sort of) side with Detroit.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aLCXM.lyBuHk&refer=germany

ps - Americans need jobs & job security before we can start buying cars, again.

Hey From San Francisco... Jamie I forgot my hardhat

Blue
D- Only because I think Craig is very fair and makes one think so his overall rating from me is an A+.

He sometimes hides and is counter in his approach to get a conversation going.

So on two points I rate him down for this post.

One for an old argument that is not one except for the few that live in a small world... Lots of what if’s … or could a would a…..

Two - he could have been more creative on this one...

Pst

Blue, GM is trying to get some money from the Germans through their Opel division.

"Seems they need sonar techs in the desert."

Damn! It goes on and on.

Patsi

It just demonstrates how stretched to the limit our military is.
The damage the Republicans have done to our military is incalculable. We will be years repairing the damage.

Jack

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189114

Blue,

This coming from the head of a country that has the world's oldest universal health care system when one of the items causing the money problems of American auto companies is the health care they pay for their union workers.

One more reason to have a single payer universal health care for everyone and not having business left to the devices of for profit insurance companies.

Flatus,

Congratulations for getting a little bit of Heaven as a great grand.

Jack,

I'll add another "Crap!" in resounding echo. May he come home safe and sound.

whsky - Well, this is one to unravel, isn't it? Opel (GM Europe) requested loan g'tees from the German gov't, but Merkel doesn't want US gov't to help bailout GM US? I'm confused, again. I hate it when there are more than two, moving parts to an issue.

Speaking of "fair and balanced".

I sure have noticed that the climate change denier industry has been running in over drive since the election. And the CATO, AEI, et al are running a top speed ginning out their bull pucky on C-SPAN.

This is an example of what I meant in limited death penalties.

Oklahoma woman and her 4 young kids found slain
news-national-20090113-Bodies.Found

The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation says Joshua Steven Durcho, 25, sh...
Seconds ago
Loading... Must Read?Thank YouYes 169

EL RENO, Okla. — A woman and her four young children were found slain in their apartment and authorities said Tuesday they were looking for a 25-year-old suspect.

The children ranged in age from 3 to 7.

The victims' bodies were found Monday by an officer who went to the apartment in this central Oklahoma community to check on the welfare of the occupants, said Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation spokeswoman Jessica Brown.

Joshua Steven Durcho of El Reno was being sought as a suspect in the case, Brown said.

State Medical Examiner's office spokeswoman Cherokee Ballard said the deaths were homicides but declined to elaborate.

The victims were identified as Summer Garas, 25; daughters Kirsten Rust, 7; Autumn Rust, 6; and Evynn Garas, 3; and son Teagin Rust, 4. Court records show that Summer Garas and her husband, Jason Garas, were divorced on Dec. 10.

Durcho, 25, was Summer's boyfriend, said James Franklin, whose wife is Summer Garas' former mother-in-law.

"That was wrong, there is nothing that can justify killing a mother and four kids," Franklin said. "I have to deal with this the rest of my life. I can't see my grandkids."

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/

Anyone who would like some detail on the various universal healthcare plans in Europe can read this series.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971170

It starts with Germany, and you click another country at the top to see articles specific to that country.

jamie - There you go, again. Looking at the big picture. (Wish some of the folks in Congress had that super-power.)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189124

Solar, This is one of those cases where you hope the guilty party would save everyone a lot of anguish, time, and money by committing suicide or put up a fight in order to achieve suicide by cop.

Catbalu- You took the bait for the day. He's just having fun with the rats!
Jack- sorry to hear that, common sense would tell you he would remain far from a desert- unfortunately common sense and the military don't always seem to go hand in hand.

Flatus....
OMG.... I forgot to say Congrats!...... enjoy her....

Jack..... let's add another Crap! and a Sucky! for good measure.....

I know Corey chided us yesterday about buying only American made cars..... but I don't know what that means anymore......

I own a 07 Subaru Forester..... I bought it from an American at a local dealership here in NH..... we took a loan out on half of it at a local credit union..... and the car was manufactured in Indiana.....

when Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler make an all-wheel drive vehicle with good gas mileage in a price range I'm willing to pay, I'll consider buying from one of them.....

Gallup has an interesting article, "Fact checking Bush's last press conference"

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113734/FactChecking-President-Bushs-Final-Press-Conference.aspx

Jax---Government to the rescue

Windstorm fund a leading issue at Texas Capitol
Seconds ago
Loading... Must Read?Thank YouYes 1

AUSTIN, Texas — Hurricane Ike was the big storm Texas officials feared would hit the coast. Now comes the hard task of paying for it.

When lawmakers convene Tuesday, they'll face the financial devastation left by the Category 2 storm that walloped the upper Gulf Coast on Sept. 13, devastating Galveston and nearby counties.

They'll look to restructure the state's windstorm insurance association, which is filling in the gap left by private insurers who stopped issuing policies in some Gulf coast counties, and consider whether to put money into a state disaster fund that Galveston officials found out the hard way was empty.

"The Legislature was wise in setting up the disaster fund, but we were cheap in not funding it," said Democratic Rep. Craig Eiland of Galveston. "A fund that doesn't have any money in it is pretty much like no fund at all."

Overall, Ike costs could sock state government with a potential $6 billion to $8 billion bill, said House Appropriations Chairman Warren Chisum. Some of that impact may be spread over four years because of the way the Texas Windstorm Insurance Association is set up to allow insurance companies to seek state tax credits over time, Chisum said.

Total Hurricane Ike costs are estimated to top $15 billion, but the state expects the federal government to cover most of that

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/

".....some of my best friends are lawyers......"

sturge, but would you want your sister to marry one... or worse yet, be one?

here's a whole ton of lawyer jokes
http://www.lawlaughs.com/animals/medicaltests.html

nice to see some new folks on board (not that i don't appreciate the old ones)

Welcome! Suit up your thick skin and stick around, we're a feisty bunch.

New Thread at 3pm, btw

Jamie

I am really tortured about the death penalty----When I think about all the innocent people that were killed ,,,,I am 100% against---When I see that kind of violence,,specially with kids,,,,you and I lived for a little while,,,but those babies ?? that just ruined my whole day,,,,I love the little ones,,,,all of em.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189101

chloe - of course you are right - at that price I'd take 2 Hershey bars.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189107

LL, true enough. Of course that is one argument against original intent - it only reflects the intent of rich white guys in the late 18th century.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189114

So, blue, does Merkel intend to give the German auto industry state funds to help them build and sell M-B, VW & Audi (to say nothing of BMW) in Germany?

Craig - feel free not to release that last post - I broke it up into 2.

"war has gotten intensely personal"

oh jack, crap and double crap. now you'll find yourself riveted by the news flashes and looking through the crowds of troops for a familiar face.

pat, thanks - great jokes!!

Flatus - congratulations on the new great granddaughter. They're so cute when they're puppies, aren't they?

Sarah Obama, Barack Obama's Kenyan, paternal grandmother, will soon arrive in Washington DC for her grandson's inauguration on January 20.

-----------------
The sound you hear is the start-up of all those dead rich white guys spinning in their graves.
Sturg, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them come flying out of the ground in South Carolina.

NEW THREAD

Flatus -
Some how I missed your post, ditto from here as well.

Last night in the 2 minutes I was able to watch Rachel Maddow, I saw an interesting graphic about job creation - that there were a net 3 million jobs created during the Bush administration, as compared to 21 million during the Clinton years. Great job George - don't let the door . . .

No New Thread until 3:00 p.m

One of these days, I must learn to read what is written.

I wondered whether 3:00 came over an hour early here today but wasn't going to come to Clarkspatch until 3:00. :-)

Bob, what's your take on Chu? It's a refreshing change IMHO.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/house-gop-throw-down-gaun_n_157479.html

HEHEHEHEH. Man oh man, does this sound like politics or what? When Hank and Georgie come and beg, Boner and the repugs stand tall, salute and say "Yessir, gotta have it, country will collapse if we don't" and Dems say "OK, gotta work together so markets will gain confidence and respond." Butnow that Obama wants the rest of the bailout funds released the Repugs say, "No sireee, not on your life, don't like how Hank doles out the money so now we won't give it to you" and Dems say ". . ."

Stanford University has received $100 million to create a new energy institute where scholars can study everything from solar cells to energy markets and economics.

The institute will expand Stanford's role in energy research and national energy policy. It will consolidate Stanford's existing energy-focused efforts onto one site — and allow the hiring of new faculty, support additional graduate students and offer seed money for major research projects.

The donations came from three alumni who said they were motivated by the desire to protect the environment from greenhouse gases, improve energy efficiency and reduce America's dependence on foreign oil.

http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula/ci_11441399

Pogo -
I think Obama has plans for the DOE. It always chapped my patootie.
That the DOE was has a PR label for the bomb makers, and the giant infrastructure to make them. Plus it's the baby sitter to the civilian plants as well.
I hope Chu can fend them off and take it in a new direction.

Chu this....

Climate change ?
We must obtain Stable Sustainable Energy Independence as the primary objective.

Read an inconvenient book..... and the science behind the facts.....

I like the PC part almost as much as the CO2 stuff...

Oh, and you might try Bag Balm for that chapped patootie.

Ping, at least Chu doesn't color the books he reads.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hxX5F4q8kxlgKmGrebR2N3EdxfhwD95M9I000?

Ping, it could be a long 4 years for you guys. Daischle, Chu, now Corr. Looks like there actually IS change on the horizon.

Mass. sets 10 percent of electricity from wind by 2020

http://uk.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUKTRE50C5X220090113

Ping -
Read an inconvenient book..... and the science behind the facts.....

------------------
Don't get me started, Sparky.

Why the American public knows that we are in the tank even if Congress doesn't:

http://www.shadowstats.com/

If you click on Alternate information at the top of the page, it will show you how the REAL unemployment rate is over 17% when the OMB isn't playing around with the numbers.

pogo...
Long 4 years? I do not understand......
This would assume that I am not open minded.

BHO keeps his RIght direction that he started before the election - I am not the one concerned.

He sees the world through the same set of eyes - that of a father of two daughters.

My concern is which Barack -(as I stated so many times before the election) shows up and sticks.

He has made some good choices

The New is not the problem..... Just some few last Change that needs to happen

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/01/bushs-legacy-a-flawed-election.html#comment-189161

C-Bob -- did you read and check the facts?

On the Global Warming - It is right on -

If openness is the new hallmark of the right, at least as it comes to energy policy and recognition of and application of science to that policy, it may not be such a long 4 years for you after all (of course I'm hoping for 8 if the beginnings are a harbinger of the rest of the administration) . Funny, but I must have mistaken your 2:20 comments about Chu and climate chage as sarcastic and dismissive. Sorry if I misunderstood. :-)

Harry trying to get something done----anything---I hope that they do this on every thihg.

Senate boosts wilderness protection across US
news-science-20090113-Congress.Wilderness

Lake Superior seen from the North Ridge hiki...

WASHINGTON — In a rare Sunday session, the Senate advanced legislation that would set aside more than 2 million acres in nine states as wilderness. Majority Democrats assembled more than enough votes to overcome GOP stalling tactics in an early showdown for the new Congress.

Republicans complained that Democrats did not allow amendments on the massive bill, which calls for the largest expansion of wilderness protection in 25 years. But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and other Democrats said the bill — a holdover from last year — was carefully written and included measures sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats.

By a 66-12 vote, with only 59 needed to limit debate, lawmakers agreed to clear away procedural hurdles despite partisan wrangling that had threatened pledges by leaders to work cooperatively as the new Obama administration takes office. Senate approval is expected later this week. Supporters hope the House will follow suit.

One more item on that Vestas search -
Vestas was a Danish farm equipment maker. They bought the wind business from bankrupt American investors in 1979.

Ping -
Who is right on ?

pogo...
Some sarcastic as I am not an Al Gore follower - much less on his Global Warming.
I think Glenn Beck is the closet connection.

Yes something is happening, Yes Al Gore and Co used creative math, Yes we need to do something - But not what Al Gore Says - more like what Al Gore does. - Or maybe John Edwards.. Not. - that was ADD... Get it !!

Our greatest threat is Energy dependance - after the failed housing policy it was energy cost that kicked this financial crisis into high gear.

The fact that emmsions gains are so over stated in error and scare tactic's it is almost criminal. We can however achive both - and all can win.
We need to just do it....

If you mean Horner, he's a cut and paste artist at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Vitter is acting as if he is dense or he is actually dense. Given his ethics problems, nagging at Clinton about disclosures is incredibly stupid.

Maybe Hillary should call one of his prostitutes for full disclosure on what he paid for their services and whether any national secrets were involved in the pillow talk.

C-Bob - One of the better analysis is Glenn Beck's book - That is the one that is right on regarding the Global Warming - Brings some facts checking into place -

Glen Beck is the apex of of moronia.

"better analysis" "Glenn Beck"

2 phrases that should not be in the same sentence.

Just what was this better analysis?

Jack

There no reason American voters should not be able to vote online. The security and technology needed is available.

Bush was a mistake from day one - old news.

Cbob

Even a blind sow can find an acorn once in a while.

I'm curious tho, anaylisis of what and what is it. But not curious enough to spend money on his book.

"butt analysis" "Glenn Beck"
fixed the typo

KGC
LOL
Cut that out, This computer is not water proof and I was taking a drink when I read that.

Jack

Ping -
One thing the deniers are good at is churning out op-eds, and pointing to each other in these op-eds, then that becomes "proof".
The deniers are a little like the "credit default swaps" of science.

Re CBob on deniers: Tell that to my pet dinosaur.

LOL.

I don't see any reason why I can't vote just because I'm an imaginary construct. Virtual people have rights too.

Jack

Cbob- Caution when reading anything from CapeWind. Bunch of crooks!! Just another big corp. looking to make money at the peoples expense. Nothing to do with the environment

NEW THREAD, chilluns, NEW THREAD

(and I was FIRST - for a change)

Dartmouth engineering professor and entrepreneur Victor Petrenko—along with his colleagues at Dartmouth and at Ice Engineering LLC in Lebanon, N.H.—have invented a way to cheaply and effectively keep ice off power lines.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090109131100.htm

Cbob and Jack..
Glenn Beck book brings some fact check and both sides to the issue- with Balance. Sounds like a fox news thing - oh he is leaving CNN to Fox...

Anyway his book along with other online sources - when I have time I will bring the links - adds the facts to the various types of green house gases and the impacts and life cycle of the various contributors - So it is not a NO WAY NO GLOBAL WARMING.... But does take a more detailed look then AL Gores Entertainment scare tactics - which I think is his joke back to the world and a great connection to Craigs post today.

SO brings an ADD question... Had Al Gore won - Would we have such a PC focus on Global Warming?
he would not have had the time to create his Entertainment Enterprise to promote
Ummmm

Ping

Glenn Beck is a master of twisting syntax to make it sound as if he knows what he is talking about and that his statements are reasonable. Neither of those conditions is true.

He is one big right wing knee jerk. Here is a site that compares the statements he makes about Global warming and his supposed "debunking" of Al Gore and what the actual material said and why Beck's understanding (or purposeful presentation) is complete hooey

http://mediamatters.org/items/200705080009?f=h_top

NEW THREAD

glenn beck is a professional liar and moron.

Jamie - I raise you with two other web sites plus the fact the temp's are lower now for many years....

Do not miss the point that Beck does not deny the impact of certain gases - but takes a deeper dive..

Call

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

Cbob- Posted at the end of the last thread so I didn't know if you saw it - Caution when reading anything from CapeWind. Bunch of crooks!! Just another big corp. looking to make money at the peoples expense. Nothing to do with the environment. There is another company that would like to place barges with windmills south of the island and most everyone is hoping that Capewind will be stopped and the other put in place. Here is a link to our group-
http://apns.convio.net/site/PageServer

Gotta go pick up the darling from French school, but have to chip in with this:

I'm really surprised to read/hear anyone hear state that liars and word-twisters etc should not be allowed to practice their craft in the media.

Who is going to decide who are what? A syntax czar? I REALLY believe it is up to the readers and listeners to decide who is lying and who is twisting words and distorting facts - that is why we have the right to freedom of speech - we can verbalize our dis-satisfaction, too. Look at the blogs, and news stations giving our phone numbers to let people talk on air.

We can also hate to watch and listen, and refuse to do so.

One of my favorite lines is What can be done to one man/woman can be done to ANY man/woman.

Flatus - congrats on your new little bit O Heaven. We'll have one soon, too. Can't wait to hold another soft little
sweetie. Oh, yeah, that was sweet of you to say such a kind thing about me. (you did mean it, didn't you?)

Prosecutors Bully Ohio Voters: Ohio Election Justice Campaign Calls for Day of Silence on January 6, 2009

http://ohioelectionjustice.blogspot.com/2009/01/prosecutors-bully-ohio-voters-ohio.html

The 2000 election was not legitimate, therefore the government is not legitimate. There is no real democracy in this country; it's a farce. How is anyone who recognizes this absurdity expected to obey laws and conform to a "democracy that is stacked against over 90% of the population?