Champ doesn't hate anyone---he is actually a kind man with a smart ass mouth and the intelligence to back it up---about gordo,,,he defends him like he does others,,,,, i believe that he thinks that gordo has every bit a right to post here as anybody else,,,and i agree --what i do is not read gordo cos i don't think it is fun anymore ----for me the fun in the gordo posts is that it drove almost every one nuts---i don't think that i could ever win an argument with pogo, but gordo had him going around and around,,,champ also felt that gordo never said anything rude to anyone, or anything that demanded excomuinication,,,,and i agree once again,,,just go past his post, to make him vanish---that is unless u want to tell every one here that he is a----and a----but that doesn't matter---gordo will be gordo, and take it all in like the gentleman that he is,,,champ will recover his sense of humor and then watch out,,sorry if i did not represent you too well champ,,but is callls them likes i seees them---night
GORDO's posts are redundant & boring. He seems to think that filing a paper with the court makes a case legit. It may just waste time and money. Courts don't act on idle speculation. pogo, others and I have repeatedly explained this to him. GORDO replies with the exact same bs, and writes that WE don't understand ! I don't have to be kind to liars. GORDO has a right to post here if Craig says so, 'cuz this is Craig's house.
2. I disagree about champ. I think champ is a champion hater. He is rude to me and others for little or no reason. He has repeatedly accused me of twisting things, when he actually didn't bother to read what I wrote. When he has made false accusations against me, I have cut and pasted my posts and put them back up to prove that I never wrote what he claims I did. When he is shown to be mistaken, he doesn't apologize. You may think he's a gentleman, but I think he is funny, rude, and filled with hate.
Now, I've wasted more of your time and my time than either of them deserve. It's getting late. Good night.
Senator Shelby ( Sunday MTP) really cast a pall of gloom on any hopes the government will give the automakers $25,000,000,000.
And still somebody thinks we should kick in $12,000,000,000 every WEEK to throw down that goddam rat hole in Iraq
Priorities . Out of line.
and solar, warn you fair and square.
jack's ahidin inna wood pile over there.
course he jus might be rollin in the hay
puttin oft this frey like he did tother day.
naw, cuz'n jack, he haint yeller
jus a cautious like feller.
the trail of the end of the Roman Republic......Old time cash poor aristocrat Julius Caesar's daddy because he needed money, let mine-rich Gaius Marius, who needed social standing, marry Julius' aunt......Marius made it possible for Sylla, at first a penniless young degenerate aristocrat to eventually rise to the level of Dictator....Sylla the Absolute Dictator made circumstances possible for Julius and Pompeius Magnus to have a civil war for control of the state, which war Julius won. After his stabbing near the statue of Pompeius, Julius' adopted nephew, Octavian and Julius' old buddy Marcus Antony aspired both for sole control of the state and had another civil war over it which Marc A. lost.....Octavian, being smart and young took full advantage of the situation and assumed full control of the state.......the senate remaining largely ineffective and largely enough easily bought was no help and unable to effect anything very "republicky" at all.......this all started about 10 years before Julius was born and culminated some short years after his death (JC 100bc to 44bc).....the marriage of Julius' aunt was in 110 BC and by 27 BC the republic was history.....although it had already been made history by Sylla's and Julius' dictatorships much earlier......
Fifty-nine presidents of public universities reeled in more than $500,000 in salary and benefits during the 2007-08 academic year, more than double the number who broke the half-million mark three years earlier, according to a survey by the Chronicle of Higher Education released on Monday.
Cicero's last words were said to have been, "There is nothing proper about what you are doing, soldier, but do try to kill me properly." He was decapitated by his pursuers. Once discovered, he bowed to his captors, leaning his head out of the litter in a gladiatorial gesture to ease the task. By baring his neck and throat to the soldiers, he was indicating that he wouldn't resist. His hands were cut off as well and nailed and displayed along with the head on the Rostra in the Forum Romanum according to the tradition of Marius and Sulla, both of whom had displayed the heads of their enemies in the Forum. Cicero was the only victim of the proscriptions to be displayed in that manner. According to Cassius Dio (in a story often mistakenly attributed to Plutarch), Antony's wife Fulvia took Cicero's head, pulled out his tongue, and jabbed it repeatedly with her hairpin in final revenge against Cicero's power of speech.
The GOP lost the battle of ideas even more comprehensively than the battle for educated votes, marching into the election with nothing more than slogans.
Energy? Just drill, baby, drill. Global warming? Crack a joke about Ozone Al. Immigration? Send the bums home. Torture and Guantanamo? Wear a T-shirt saying you would rather be waterboarding.
I wrote a response to what xrepub said about Champ on the last thread (this morning), then came over and started reading this thread and found what you said. I'm going to reprint my response here. It's worded differently than yours, but I also agree with the stuff you wrote about Gordo.
"Apparently, I am not the only one champ hates around here, because he experienced another couple hissyfits today, while I was away raking." xrepublican
Champ doesn't hate you or anyone else xrepub - he's mad about all the injustice in the world. He's a little mad too, because he thinks the rest of us can't see it. And he doesn't like it when some act like a bully with their ideas.
Good Spin - So we are seeing which Barack is showing up a step at a time - No judgement here so relax......
But where is all of the Words just Words about bringing Change to Washington?
How about the title - Obama brings same old same old to rule with him - Now if they are the best qualified then so be it.
Also why are so many wanting to run away from the Senate?
I read a few of Craig's posts. Why do you suppose that the caucus is taking a secret vote to determine Lieberman's punishment? In every article I see the member interviewed professess to be a close friend of Liebermans. It may just be me but a secret vote seems kind of cowardly. If he's really a friend and you think he needs to be punsihed then you shouldn't have to be secret about it.
They are scared that he might switch his party affiliation to Republican. What has he got to lose? He has already embarrassed the democratic party and himself. I have to give him credit for saying what he actually believes. Rare for a politician.
"Also why are so many wanting to run away from the Senate?
Ping,
The way they run the senate, they could have one Democrat (representing the entire US), one Republican (doing the same) and 1/1000th of an Independent. Then the votes would come out about the same as they do now. It's got to feel like a losing battle there, when everyone is always just expected to vote on party lines on everything anyway - no deviation permitted. And if they don't conform, they pay a price.....
I envision a Government without parties, where all ideas are welcome and voted on independently.
Got to feed my animals again (and there's a lot of them).
They think they're supposed to eat every day, so what can I do. :)
Bow,
I'm not saying that I even disagree with voting on action. It's what parties do. Why be so clandestine about it? I shouldn't be surprised but the word "spineless" keep coming to mind.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that 46% of the voting public were in fact "smart", and their only mistake was following a party led by Idiots ?
The Athenians defined Idiots as follows :
"Idiots" were seen as having bad judgment in public and political matters.
Before I go, Sturge I didn't mean to put you on the spot (if I did).
I think honesty is more important than courage (unless it's the courage to be honest), but I was interested in other peoples opinion on it. I know Courage is an important value to a lot of people and thought others might disagree with me on putting it second.
Bow,
Many of these countries have personnel there for logistical and administrative purposes. They are there
to facilitate actions (should they be needed) in less stable regions of the world. Many other US agencies
also use these facilties worldwide and would still be required to remain.
I see that pirates captured the brand new Saudi tanker off of Mombasa. It's interesting, Saudi Aramco registered the vessel under the Liberian Flag. I think that we should let the Liberian Navy go rescue them.
I'm sure they'll come running to Nato or the Russians to help them.....
Solar, you might notice that I got off the Gordo merry-go-round. Repetitive and boring is the best description of his repeated posts on the same subject ime and time and time again . . .
LOL - Geronimo's real name mighta escaped us, but it couldn't escape Wiki.
Geronimo (Chiricahua: Goyaałé, "one who yawns"; often spelled Goyathlay or Goyahkla[1] in English) (June 16, 1829–February 17, 1909) was a prominent Native American leader of the Chiricahua Apache who fought against Mexico and the United States and their expansion into Apache tribal lands for several decades.
I got a bit of a kick out of the discussion about redundency consultants or corporate downsizers or hired firers or assholes or whatever. Apparently here the correct term would be scapegoat. I have a brother in law who worked for McKenzie (or was it Boston Counsulting? not sure now) back when GM was going through one of its periodic downsizings to keep Toyota from digging its grave too soon. Although the GM management knew very well where the redundencies were and who needed to go - and communicated that to the consltants they hired for cover - the GM folks were too concerned with union relations to appear to make the hard decisions and tell the union and the workers whose jobs were being eliminated that their future plans didn't include them - so they hired outside consulting firms to come in and put the gloss of analysis and legitimacy on what should have been management decisions. It was a gut wrenching job for my brother in law, who quit because of it. We called him Tom.
Oh, and most of those Roman and Greek guys are dead now, aren't they? Pity - I guess we'll jus thave to take the word of the ones who bothered to write it down.
well.... I read this weekend's thread..... stupid me....
Rosie..... so sorry for the lost of your pet.... animals give us such joy and ask so little in return..... please take care.....
Champ... if you really are gone.... I already miss you....
I agree with those who are puzzled over Craig's complaint of a swear all the while seeming to tolerate posts that are much more offensive to most of us.....
yes..... your idea of allowing free speech can be laudable, Craig..... but you are also giving a forum to bullies..... can't have one without the other, IMO....
Corey..... "jerk" is a good start..... I was thinking more along the lines of a word that begins with "A".... ends with "E".... and has a hole in the middle....
Bethy.... I bought it!..... went to a local bookstore this weekend and bought Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" and "Foucault's Pendulum".... they both look like juicy reading......
......spots R us......cicero was a really mixed bag....left a lot of writings.....letters and stuff he composed for speaking in that great hall, and to crowds of soldiers etc......
good book about the complexities of cicero is A PILLAR OF IRON by Taylor Caldwell......
The point "courage vs. honesty" would probably be best solved by wishing for a judicious measure and fortuitous mixture of both......
the athenians were not so much idiots as they were schizophrenic according to a prof i had oncet.....
Why does the New Italian Navy have glass bottom boats?
So they can see the OLD Italian Navy.
see he's been making the rounds hawking his new book, so will ted turner soon turn up on imus and the daily show? since ted said supportive things re t boone and imus seems to like ole t boone, seems ted would be a natural for imus.... boy could that turn in to a donnybrook given their respectively volatile sensibilities.
Anon - and Huntington, WV is the worst - must be a bitch to live in the only place in the US that can't say "Thank god for . . ." I guess that explains why people in that area go to the Town Center Mall in Charleston to cruise and look at the scenery instead of the mall in Barboursville.
Pogo -
As Haley Barbour left for his governors meeting, the CDC also reported that Vermont had the lowest rate of premature births, and Miss. had the highest rate.
Just a reminder that Tylenol has requested ten songs from everyone that you either can't turn off, automatically sing along with or that makes you start dancing. As I understand the request, they don't have to be favorites or most important, just irrisistable.
jamie, I really don't know a lot about the military or the purposes for our personnel in the various duty stations, but what is the purpose of having 86K troops in Germany, Italy and the UK if you know? I assume there is some benefit to having a fair sized US presence in Europe to keep the Rooskies from getting any funny ideas, but I'm speculating. I think It might be of more concern to ask what happens to the 150K that are in Iraq if Obama pulls them out consistent with his pledge to do so (which happens to be pretty much exactly what the Iraqi parliament agreed to over the weekend - so much for Bush's insane "no time frame" rantings).
ty, "I Dig Rock 'n Roll Music" by the Mamas and Papas - I do dig R&R, but I hate that song and can't get it out of my head for about a week every time I happen to hear it. A close second - "Anticipation" by Carly Simon. Great song that I hate and sit around wondering when I'll hear again, and dreading it.
Jack, If you're around, you won't be surprised today. They're back onto Palin again.
"The point "courage vs. honesty" would probably be best solved by wishing for a judicious measure and fortuitous mixture of both...."
I think you're right Sturge.......and I think it's interesting what your professor said about the athenians being schizophrenic. I seem to remember you mentioning something another professor of yours said once defining schizophrenia (or maybe I'm mis-remembering.) What ever it was, I remember it being really interesting too. :)
Pogo,
It's my understanding that the STOF agreement only limits the amount of time that troops can remain. This is a UN requirement. It does not indicate a time-frame per se. We can be out earlier or later. It's just that another agreement would need to be signed if we stay longer.
After Obama's win, white backlash festers in US
The election of a black president triggered at least 200 hate-related incidents, a watchdog group finds.
Somehow pogo, that didn't sound like you were discussing politics when you were demeaning Palin (comic books, etc.).
I guess I missed something. It sounded more like sarcasm to me, and about the fact that you don't consider her worthy and that you constantly make it clear that she's not intelligent enough to suit you. I think it's all pretty much been said by now.
jax, my understanding may be a little limited since I just heard it on CNN while driving the highways and byways, but what I thought I heard was that the Iraqi cabinet favorably voted on an agreement that would have all our combat troops out of Iraq by 2011. That might change-that sort of stuff does, but that sounds like a timeline to me, as does this coverage of it from the Times.
"The proposed agreement, which took nearly a year to negotiate with the United States, not only sets a date for American troop withdrawal, but puts new restrictions on American combat operations in Iraq starting Jan. 1 and requires an American military pullback from urban areas by June 30. Those hard dates reflect a significant concession by the departing Bush administration, which had been publicly averse to timetables."
All of those men and women could be brought back stateside, but what do you do with them then? There is a huge amount of infrastructure that needs to be rebuilt, but the military already keeps groups such as the Seabees unemployed and restricted to base so as not to conflict with local business.
The trouble with these world wide down turns is that they tend to reveal just how much "work" is just padding and totally unnecessary which of course makes the people doing the "work" unnecessary.
There usually has to be some huge infusion of cash and/or creativity to turn things around and that can take a decade or more.
Pogo,
Effectively, I doubt that it is any more of a timeline than this upcoming one. Does anyone really believe that we would have been out by Jan 1st. if this agreement isn't signed?
I think the key thing here is that the enemy (whoever they are) can't count on a definitive period from which to base their operations on. As I understand it that is the only real reason not to have a public time-frame to begin with.
"the fact that you don't consider her worthy and that you constantly make it clear that she's not intelligent enough to suit you"
Sounds about right to me, but since she insist on clutching to the limelight I'm sure many on this blog and in general will continue to comment that this person does not have what it takes to be a national leader. If she wanted to taken seriously as a national leader it strikes me that she would lay low and do some much needed homework, find herself a policy wonk or two who would be willing to mentor her and learn how not to say some of the amazingly stupid things she said during the campaign.
The main reason for the foreign deployment is to have units available for anything that might transpire. They are also a way of supporting the economies of our friends in order to keep them friendly. Those men and women spend a lot of money. As mentioned above, the bases are used for other government agencies in addition to the embassies.
It is all just moving the coin of the realm around in circles.
chloe, sarcasm, from me? About Palin? Surely not. But you're right, she ISN'T smart enough for me - well, for national politics IMNSHO - and she IS in the papers and she IS trying to mount an assault on a political future on the national stage (to say notihing of cashing in on her newfound celebrity), so yes I'm discussing politics and I don't feel too bad about linking a Cavett article on her that I just read this morning and made me laugh out loud or commenting on anything else about her that happens to come up - even if I'm the one who brings it up. And for the record, I didn't bring up the book deal, but I do love to ridicule Ms.Sarah at every opportunity.
You know Chloe instead of attacking everyone who thinks Palin isn't up to being a national leader (after all that could take up anyone's free time). How bout defending her based on policy. Why not try to sell us on her, what qualities of her's and policy stands do you feel make her worthy of the role of political leader.
Sturg-----wonderful information,,,it fills in nicely with what i have,,you provide details (names and dates) in away that is hard to refute ----that is what im trying to do----please keep filling in---i will start filing a few more names and dates---thanks
Pogo--i did not mean that gordo was in any way was making headway with you,,,just that you and him for a few weeks were going around, and around,,yet u still managed to have your usual conversations--
Chloe----yes we do----
Patd-----i was a little late this am cos i had a mean desperado on my tail last night, and had to keep one eye open, and got there by my clock(sun dial) about 15 minn late---what was your hurry,,,and now u bring in marshal Dillon (jack) well i have to even up the sides now---gonna go get whispering pete---she is the fastes cowgirl with pistolas that ever wore pants (Patsi) oh u gonna get it now
why she is so mean that she chase of a feller out from ten, and made him crawl all the way to New York city---where he never leaves his casa----just pitafull just him and 27 dogs and one cat to feed them all,,i will let u know when i come a rollin back in town, and then-------
You know, I didn't ask for all of this, but got myself caught up in it as I sometimes unwisely do. Over the weekend, Jack made a couple of jokes about the amount of time on the blog spent discussing Palin. I was simply joking with him when I made that comment. I certainly wasn't intending it to defend her in anyway. I might find some of it distasteful, but so what, go for it. I really don't care, and I shouldn't have said anything. Whatever floats you boat is fine with me - ALWAYS.
Pogo,
I guess that's my biggest issue with alot of people on these blogs. Regardless of party affiliations. They love to ridicule.....it's not enough to point out policy shortcomings, or character issues. It's the pure love of ridicule....I think it's why there is so little respect for any public official and why many good potential candidates won't enter politics.....I think that the anonymity afforded by these blogs emboldens some to behave in way that they never would if speaking in person. It's a shame but it does speak volumes about many.
Sarah Palin isn't the smartest bulb in the socket, but I do admire that she worked hard for a job that only a few months before she had to ask "what does a vice-president do anyway?" I am not too surprised either to see people who didn't support the Democrats would complain about criticism being expressed about Sarah Palin. I'll add one of my own... I think she was so WRONG to suggest that Obama "pals around with terrorists". It was mean-spirited and STUPID. Also, in a country that has been on edge for at least 7 years re: terrorism, this was a "below the belt" slur. Her apparent hatred of Gays and her fundamentalist church ties makes her totally unqualified for office IMHO.
Sarah Palin is not a goddess figure who should be held above any scrutiny or criticism; she's a politician. If she, and her ardent supporters, cannot handle that, they should all find a new focus outside the political realm, because it's the nature of the game and no matter what you feel or hope, we know this will never end.
I enjoyed seeing Palin on SNL, but on policy, capacity and core values, she is not someone I could support (and I'd love to see a woman President sooner, rather than later).
Having said all this, I have to agree with Brian and say "Go Palin Go... 2012"
Chloe----correct picking --honesty over courage ---i think that when one has honesty, courage builds up in them cos it builds character, which is what is needed to be brave???
Jamie, I figured as much - my initial point was that there are many more forces in Iraq that will have to be dealt with as we draw down than there are in foreign deployments for other purposes, and who probably won't be redeployed at any rate, and I hope that something is being done to plan for their return. I'm guessing that some will go to Afghanistan, but there could be about 100K that won't.
Jax, I hear ya, but at least the Times sees this one as different. I don't know whether you or the Times is right or wrong, but ask me again in a couple of years.
"Sarah Palin is not a goddess figure who should be held above any scrutiny or criticism; she's a politician. If she, and her ardent supporters, cannot handle that, they should all find a new focus outside the political realm, "
Oh come on, Tom. I don't think she has "ardent supporters" here. Just some who question the motives behind the constant -- and tedious -- ridicule.
Pogo,
I think it is different because things are truly winding down. I wouldn't be surprised if we drew down sooner rather than later. But i'll bet we keep some troops there longer than 3 years.
"---correct picking --honesty over courage ---i think that when one has honesty, courage builds up in them cos it builds character, which is what is needed to be brave???"
Solar, I'm beginning to wonder what I (and this blog) would do without you. Thanks.
Patsi, it seems like she does, but I'll cede the point. :-) I am curious (and I ask this because I respect your opinion) what do you think are the motives behind Palin criticism? Do you think it's worse than criticism directed at other politicians? Do you think it is only centered here or in the larger politicial spectrum?
ok..... reporting on what was said on the Diane Rehm show ....... the consensus is that the government will give the auto industry some kind of help or "bailout" if you prefer that term...... there will be a discussion on giving them $25 billion in Congress later today..... I have no opinion either way..... I am not an economist and I don't want to play one on a blog....... and no.... I did not stay at a Holiday Express last night......
Jax..... your 11:17 is spot on!....
the ridicule and the endless..... and tedious..... repetition isn't worth my time....
I'm reading less and less of this blog..... but now have more time to devote to reading books...... so I guess in a ways.... I need to say..... thanks!... :0
One of the purposes of the GI Bill following WW II was to keep men out of the work force while sending the women home. That extended educational period allowed for the draw down of the military production and the transition to civilian industries and manufacturing plus creating a pool of educated citizens that could be drawn on as needed for the mechanics of rebuilding Europe.
Then we sort of had to do it in reverse in the 60s and send all the women back to work to keep the average wage down once we were in back in competition with the world.
Now that is falling apart again with outsourcing of businesses to the lowest common denominator on wages and the elimination of manufacturing. While the world irons out those levels only the Chinese have money ... could get interesting.
jax, I said worse about Palin last weekend among Mrs. P's family, some of whom are dems, some repubs. I personally don't need anonymity to criticize Palin, or any other politician for that matter. Ridicule is part of the political discourse and criticism - and what are we doing here if we're not criticizing politicians at least in part? - and it has been pretty much forever from what I can tell - and will be pretty much forever if history is a teacher. I don't fault it - unless of course you're criticising the politicians I like. Then I get indignant.
Patsi, Palin certainly doesn't hold the only patent (or would that be copyright?) on stupid statements, does she? LOL
chloe, not to worry, I don't expect everyone to like anything I say or anyone to like everything. If you don't like it, comment on it, ignore, criticize it - it's all OK with me. Ignoring it is the only response that won't cause me to think about what I've said.
The USA has military in Europe because they have determined it in their national interest to be stationed throughout the continent. I don't think tit is necessary for American soldiers to be stationed in Europe at all, but hey, I could be wrong...
Anon,
I agree/disagree on policies and actions. However I specifically respect the government office particularly the presidency.
I didn't vote for BO and I'll probably disagree with his policies but he's my president now and I'll personally confront anyone who disrepects the office that he holds.
You learn in the military to respect ones position and to follow orders regardless of your personal opinion. It's necessary in the military.
At the very least you'd think as citizens we could at least respect one's office.
I am relieved. I was getting worried it had been three whole days with no Palin bashing.
Pogo
go for it,
There are day when being a bleacher bum is fun.
LOL
Buuuuuuuuuut.
It is one thing to go to Wriggly and yell obsenities at the outfielder. It is another to understand why that outfielder is standing in front of you.
I love to see the way the game is being played I'm not much of a bleacher bum most days
But as I said some days when the beer is plentiful and the sun is warm there is no better place in the world than a right field bleacher seat at Wriggly. ;-0
"... the consensus is that the government will give the auto industry some kind of help or "bailout" if you prefer that term...... there will be a discussion on giving them $25 billion in Congress later today..."
Renee, I think that sounds good (even though I shouldn't have an opinion either, as I know nothing about it). But if they make this an incentive to move them in the right direction of developing vehicles with alternate forms of fuel or at least better mileage, etc., it could mean a lot more.
jamie, I know that there have been changes in the GI bill even since the VN era, but I don't really know the details. My limited understanding is that the educational benefits aren't as robust as they were before. Regardless, education through the GI Bill certainly would be part of the post-Iraq planning. Good thing, too, the job market's gonna suck unless something dramatic happens in the economy.
Pogo,
My oldest is in college now and he says that his classes are full of Iraq/Afghanistan vets and that many are Nat'l guard/reservists. He knows one well and he is doing 2 years of school and going back for one year in Iraq next year. then he'll come back and do 2 more to finish school.
I don't think there's much doubt that the gov't is going to do something aobut the auto industry' swoes, (unless the Shelby's of the world mont a filibuster and get 40 senators to support it) the queston will be whther the money comes from the $700B set aside already or the $?? already there to help Detroit develop cleaner cars. The way Paulson's been dancing, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Congress amend the$700B bailout legislation to include Detroit as a target for the funds. Or not.
ET----i think that courage came first,,,it was needed to evolve,,,honesty( and the brain)had to be developed as group protection from predators and rivals was needed in order to survive---morals are innate in all animals,,and therefor honesty , that has to be developed---the wolf pack is a good example no?????
pogo,
I agree, I personally benefitted from it. It's not for everyone but you have be thankful that we live in a country that can offer this opportunity. Some make it a career but most use it as a stepping to better things.
Speaking of not idiots, I'm always amused how one can throw out odd ball references, as my Roman one last night, and how many people will pick it up and play with it.
I'm begining to suspect that the quality of not idiocy around here is very high.
Change that. No begining or suspect about it , it is very evident.
Octavian and his successor for a couple centuries were called Princeps. This title denominated them as the First Citizen, with the right to put in the first word on any topic in the Senate, thus setting the agenda, and letting folks know what to think. The title Emperor wasn't used until much later.
Athens 'democracy' was actually an imperialist demogoguery. They enslaved their allies in the Delian League, stole the League treasury and squandered it on the Parthenon They slew every man, woman, child, puppy, and chicken in Mytilene for seceding. They sent their army off to a fight an elective war in a faraway place and only one man came back alive to tell of the disaster.
Sparta was a parasitic, fascist, war machine, fed and clothed by the labor of the conquered Helots, enslaved on State owned plantations.
It is hard to decide which society was more repulsive.
How our founding fathers ever found the political gold among all this dross to invent the successful American polity, is a mystery to me. The story that Franklin, particularly, urged the model of the Iroqouis seems as reasonable as the theory that we modeled on Athens and Rome.
jax yeah, my other bro in law just got out last year after putting in 20 in the army, durig which time he got a dgree he would not have other wise gotten and stayed out of jail, which it is likely he would not have been able to do had he not gone into the service. It didn't turn him into anyone I'd want to live next door to - he still has his major demons as a human being, which IMHO haven't been lessened at all, and have perhaps even been exacerbated - but he's probably a whole lot better off educationally and occupationally now than he would have been in all likellihood.
A bailout of the big three automakers will not succeed without addressing the labor cost issues. They will still not be able to compete with the other automobile manufacturing plants operated in the US that have lower labor and benefit costs.
Xrep,
Athens did show that being democratic doesn't ensure that you are a good neighbor.....and the Roman Republic despite being democratic was no peach either.....
I love the choice the Roman republic offered its neighbors. Resist and we will conquor you and enslave everybody or become an ally and provide the soldiers for us to expand our empire.
Comments
Hi y'all.
tt
Posted by: tiptoe
| November 17, 2008 12:14 AM
Hi y'all, again.
tt
Posted by: tiptoe
| November 17, 2008 12:15 AM
Oh, this place is getting weird(er).
tt
Posted by: tiptoe
| November 17, 2008 12:16 AM
This is the closest I have ever gotten to being 1st.
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 1:03 AM
Do you think we're alone in here ?
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 1:04 AM
Yoohoo, tiptoe,
Are you here ?
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 1:07 AM
XR
Champ doesn't hate anyone---he is actually a kind man with a smart ass mouth and the intelligence to back it up---about gordo,,,he defends him like he does others,,,,, i believe that he thinks that gordo has every bit a right to post here as anybody else,,,and i agree --what i do is not read gordo cos i don't think it is fun anymore ----for me the fun in the gordo posts is that it drove almost every one nuts---i don't think that i could ever win an argument with pogo, but gordo had him going around and around,,,champ also felt that gordo never said anything rude to anyone, or anything that demanded excomuinication,,,,and i agree once again,,,just go past his post, to make him vanish---that is unless u want to tell every one here that he is a----and a----but that doesn't matter---gordo will be gordo, and take it all in like the gentleman that he is,,,champ will recover his sense of humor and then watch out,,sorry if i did not represent you too well champ,,but is callls them likes i seees them---night
Posted by: SolarCrete
| November 17, 2008 1:10 AM
Craig
synergetic-- all i believe in just one word!!!!!!!!
Posted by: SolarCrete
| November 17, 2008 1:20 AM
Today's thread on The BackChannel Blog
The Dumbing Down of Lincoln's Party
http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/
Posted by: Chef Sheila | November 17, 2008 1:26 AM
Tip Toe,
If your there. Good to see your track marks ;0)
Been awhile
Posted by: Chef Sheila | November 17, 2008 1:28 AM
Tiptoe - you are so funny when you're first - you make it seem like a haunted house!
Posted by: bethyboo
| November 17, 2008 1:36 AM
GORDO's posts are redundant & boring. He seems to think that filing a paper with the court makes a case legit. It may just waste time and money. Courts don't act on idle speculation. pogo, others and I have repeatedly explained this to him. GORDO replies with the exact same bs, and writes that WE don't understand ! I don't have to be kind to liars. GORDO has a right to post here if Craig says so, 'cuz this is Craig's house.
2. I disagree about champ. I think champ is a champion hater. He is rude to me and others for little or no reason. He has repeatedly accused me of twisting things, when he actually didn't bother to read what I wrote. When he has made false accusations against me, I have cut and pasted my posts and put them back up to prove that I never wrote what he claims I did. When he is shown to be mistaken, he doesn't apologize. You may think he's a gentleman, but I think he is funny, rude, and filled with hate.
Now, I've wasted more of your time and my time than either of them deserve. It's getting late. Good night.
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 1:56 AM
Sorry, I meant to address that last to SolarCrete.
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 1:58 AM
Senator Shelby ( Sunday MTP) really cast a pall of gloom on any hopes the government will give the automakers $25,000,000,000.
And still somebody thinks we should kick in $12,000,000,000 every WEEK to throw down that goddam rat hole in Iraq
Priorities . Out of line.
Posted by: DexterJohnson
| November 17, 2008 2:31 AM
xrepublican -----------------
"... and writes that WE don't understand !"
YOU don't understand !!!
Posted by: GORDO | November 17, 2008 2:33 AM
ok, solar, it's almost sunrise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVnoaPPpWog
Posted by: patd | November 17, 2008 6:05 AM
and solar, warn you fair and square.
jack's ahidin inna wood pile over there.
course he jus might be rollin in the hay
puttin oft this frey like he did tother day.
naw, cuz'n jack, he haint yeller
jus a cautious like feller.
see ya when's sun sa peekin up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLvKZ6nIiA
Posted by: patd | November 17, 2008 6:15 AM
Good morning, patd! Watching the last half of The Mist this morning....it's less depressing than the news.
I do hope Solar and Xrep keep up the biblical banter -- interesting stuff.
Posted by: Patsi
| November 17, 2008 6:46 AM
An appraisal from the Keno Twins :
"Well it looks like The Algonquin Round Table has termites."
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 6:52 AM
Patd -
Thanks . I love me some Lee Van Cleef -
http://www.westernposterpage.com/angeleyes1.htm
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 6:58 AM
the trail of the end of the Roman Republic......Old time cash poor aristocrat Julius Caesar's daddy because he needed money, let mine-rich Gaius Marius, who needed social standing, marry Julius' aunt......Marius made it possible for Sylla, at first a penniless young degenerate aristocrat to eventually rise to the level of Dictator....Sylla the Absolute Dictator made circumstances possible for Julius and Pompeius Magnus to have a civil war for control of the state, which war Julius won. After his stabbing near the statue of Pompeius, Julius' adopted nephew, Octavian and Julius' old buddy Marcus Antony aspired both for sole control of the state and had another civil war over it which Marc A. lost.....Octavian, being smart and young took full advantage of the situation and assumed full control of the state.......the senate remaining largely ineffective and largely enough easily bought was no help and unable to effect anything very "republicky" at all.......this all started about 10 years before Julius was born and culminated some short years after his death (JC 100bc to 44bc).....the marriage of Julius' aunt was in 110 BC and by 27 BC the republic was history.....although it had already been made history by Sylla's and Julius' dictatorships much earlier......
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 7:00 AM
Fifty-nine presidents of public universities reeled in more than $500,000 in salary and benefits during the 2007-08 academic year, more than double the number who broke the half-million mark three years earlier, according to a survey by the Chronicle of Higher Education released on Monday.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6266263&page=1
-------------------
More bread, more circuses .
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:05 AM
E. Gordon Gee of Ohio State University sat atop the salary heap for public university presidents in the survey, bringing in $1,346,255.
What's the unemployment rate in Ohio ?
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:09 AM
"...the senate remaining largely ineffective and largely enough easily bought was no help and unable to effect anything very "republicky" at all....."
sturge, trail of the end of the republic? sounds more like the end of the republicans these days
Posted by: patd | November 17, 2008 7:12 AM
the end of Cicero:
Cicero's last words were said to have been, "There is nothing proper about what you are doing, soldier, but do try to kill me properly." He was decapitated by his pursuers. Once discovered, he bowed to his captors, leaning his head out of the litter in a gladiatorial gesture to ease the task. By baring his neck and throat to the soldiers, he was indicating that he wouldn't resist. His hands were cut off as well and nailed and displayed along with the head on the Rostra in the Forum Romanum according to the tradition of Marius and Sulla, both of whom had displayed the heads of their enemies in the Forum. Cicero was the only victim of the proscriptions to be displayed in that manner. According to Cassius Dio (in a story often mistakenly attributed to Plutarch), Antony's wife Fulvia took Cicero's head, pulled out his tongue, and jabbed it repeatedly with her hairpin in final revenge against Cicero's power of speech.
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 7:19 AM
Morning Joe -
What they need is the old Monty Python routine with the slapping fish. John Cleese in a pith helmet slapping everyone with a mackerel.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:20 AM
Sturg-
Thanks. I love me some Roman metaphors.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Maccari-Cicero.jpg/500px-Maccari-Cicero.jpg
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:26 AM
You mean Cleese was a mackeral slapper??
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 7:27 AM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/photogalleries/rome-reborn/images/primary/9_461.jpg
the roman senate room.....
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 7:34 AM
More reasons why America hates those Volvo drivin', Burgenstock wearing, granola eatin', liberals in Vermont -
Burlington, Vt., is healthiest city, CDC says
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/1500ap_med_healthiest_city.html
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:34 AM
The GOP lost the battle of ideas even more comprehensively than the battle for educated votes, marching into the election with nothing more than slogans.
Energy? Just drill, baby, drill. Global warming? Crack a joke about Ozone Al. Immigration? Send the bums home. Torture and Guantanamo? Wear a T-shirt saying you would rather be waterboarding.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/387928_gop15.html?source=mypi
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 7:47 AM
Anon,
They sure did lose the election. That said, 57 million people voted for McCain.
So what are you saying about those voters?
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 8:00 AM
Sturg -
Amazing Wind Powered Vehicle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XIf7TYEuDc
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 8:01 AM
It's Birkenstock! Don't you watch QVC?
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:05 AM
Interesting thread over the weekend. The word "sexist" got used a lot. Wonder why the word "Jerk" didn't?
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:08 AM
Anon, that's because THE Ohio State University is the greatest university EVER. That's why that guy made so much money. I'm kidding, of course.
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:10 AM
Interesting thread over the weekend. The word "sexist" got used a lot. Wonder why the word "Jerk" didn't?
---Corey, who once more has struck the nail squarely upon its head.
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 8:14 AM
Just being honest.
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:16 AM
Bowmac-
That op-ed speaks for itself. And I must say I find little wrong with it.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 8:17 AM
The Republicans missed out on "Yes We Can!". That pretty well covered everything for Obama. LOL!
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:22 AM
So approx, 46% of the voting population are idiots? or the leadership of the republican party?
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 8:28 AM
Thanks there Corey. Gotta keep the record straight.
You know of coarse that ole' Cicero there was big on honesty too.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 8:28 AM
cicero was big on that honesty as it suited cicero.....who wasnt as big on "courage" as he might have been......according to most accounts......
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 8:31 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-173995
Solar, We really do think alike.
I wrote a response to what xrepub said about Champ on the last thread (this morning), then came over and started reading this thread and found what you said. I'm going to reprint my response here. It's worded differently than yours, but I also agree with the stuff you wrote about Gordo.
"Apparently, I am not the only one champ hates around here, because he experienced another couple hissyfits today, while I was away raking." xrepublican
Champ doesn't hate you or anyone else xrepub - he's mad about all the injustice in the world. He's a little mad too, because he thinks the rest of us can't see it. And he doesn't like it when some act like a bully with their ideas.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 8:32 AM
Cicero's great career had always been marked by an element of timidity and fear. He was not a brave man and he was a worrier.
wikipedia
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 8:35 AM
"Interesting thread over the weekend. The word "sexist" got used a lot. Wonder why the word "Jerk" didn't?"
Ha Corey, I'm sure plenty of people were thinking it. :)
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 8:36 AM
The only Roman I know is Little Caesars.
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:37 AM
"cicero was big on that honesty as it suited cicero.....who wasnt as big on "courage" as he might have been..."
Which do you think is more important Sturge? If either. :)
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 8:38 AM
Criag -
The first link in your weekend update.
Obama picks reflect respect for the Hill?
Good Spin - So we are seeing which Barack is showing up a step at a time - No judgement here so relax......
But where is all of the Words just Words about bringing Change to Washington?
How about the title - Obama brings same old same old to rule with him - Now if they are the best qualified then so be it.
Also why are so many wanting to run away from the Senate?
Posted by: Ping Pong
| November 17, 2008 8:42 AM
"---Corey, who once more has struck the nail squarely upon its head.
Yes, excellent point, Corey.
Posted by: Patsi
| November 17, 2008 8:43 AM
"Yes We Can!"
Corey, I kept hearing people say Yes we can 'what'?
I know what he meant. Yes we can win this election. And so he did. Now what?
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 8:44 AM
A special blistersyeahbutchannel
Daily Affirmation for Eric Cantor
Repeat after blistersyeahbutchannel
I will be relevant I will be relevant
(hint to Eric - the affirmation does not work if you hold on to irrelevant issues)
Posted by: blistersyeahbutchannel | November 17, 2008 8:46 AM
Getting ready for bed. I actually had to work last night. Hopefully, the snow will miss us here. Have a good day all...while it lasts! LOL!
Posted by: Corey
| November 17, 2008 8:46 AM
I read a few of Craig's posts. Why do you suppose that the caucus is taking a secret vote to determine Lieberman's punishment? In every article I see the member interviewed professess to be a close friend of Liebermans. It may just be me but a secret vote seems kind of cowardly. If he's really a friend and you think he needs to be punsihed then you shouldn't have to be secret about it.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 8:48 AM
They are scared that he might switch his party affiliation to Republican. What has he got to lose? He has already embarrassed the democratic party and himself. I have to give him credit for saying what he actually believes. Rare for a politician.
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 8:53 AM
"Also why are so many wanting to run away from the Senate?
Ping,
The way they run the senate, they could have one Democrat (representing the entire US), one Republican (doing the same) and 1/1000th of an Independent. Then the votes would come out about the same as they do now. It's got to feel like a losing battle there, when everyone is always just expected to vote on party lines on everything anyway - no deviation permitted. And if they don't conform, they pay a price.....
I envision a Government without parties, where all ideas are welcome and voted on independently.
Got to feed my animals again (and there's a lot of them).
They think they're supposed to eat every day, so what can I do. :)
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 8:54 AM
Bow,
I'm not saying that I even disagree with voting on action. It's what parties do. Why be so clandestine about it? I shouldn't be surprised but the word "spineless" keep coming to mind.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 8:55 AM
Bowmac -
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that 46% of the voting public were in fact "smart", and their only mistake was following a party led by Idiots ?
The Athenians defined Idiots as follows :
"Idiots" were seen as having bad judgment in public and political matters.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 8:59 AM
Want to cut the military budget - US out of Europe, let them defend themselves:
Source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deployments_of_the_United_States_Military#Europe
Not counting Bosnia or Kosovo, the US military has about 90,000 personnel in Europe.
* Germany – 63,958.
* Souda Bay, Greece - 386
* Italy – 11,693
* United Kingdom – 10,967
* Spain – 1,268
* Norway - 23
* Sweden - 23
* Turkey – 1,365
* Belgium – 1,367
* Portugal – 864
* Netherlands – 444
* Greece – 562
* Russia - 18 (mainly in the US embassy in Moscow)
* Thule, Greenland - 138
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 9:01 AM
Before I go, Sturge I didn't mean to put you on the spot (if I did).
I think honesty is more important than courage (unless it's the courage to be honest), but I was interested in other peoples opinion on it. I know Courage is an important value to a lot of people and thought others might disagree with me on putting it second.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 9:01 AM
Bow,
Many of these countries have personnel there for logistical and administrative purposes. They are there
to facilitate actions (should they be needed) in less stable regions of the world. Many other US agencies
also use these facilties worldwide and would still be required to remain.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 9:06 AM
I see that pirates captured the brand new Saudi tanker off of Mombasa. It's interesting, Saudi Aramco registered the vessel under the Liberian Flag. I think that we should let the Liberian Navy go rescue them.
I'm sure they'll come running to Nato or the Russians to help them.....
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 9:12 AM
Somali pirates hijack Saudi oil tanker with Britons on board
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5172770.ece
__________________
Wait till they high jack a LGN tanker in the Straits of Malacca.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 9:18 AM
What about the Saudi Navy?
They really have one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Navy
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 9:19 AM
Annon,
I don't care about the Athenians. They were a bunch of idiots.
I remember a while back that there was actual praise on this blog for a republican, I think it was Chuck Hagel.
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 9:24 AM
Jack -
Just recently a ship was boarded , and the pirates just practiced steering the ship. Then they left, on ransom, no looting, no killing.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 9:27 AM
mornin' all.
Solar, you might notice that I got off the Gordo merry-go-round. Repetitive and boring is the best description of his repeated posts on the same subject ime and time and time again . . .
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/as-gm-goes-so-goes-the-nation.html#comment-173420
LOL - Geronimo's real name mighta escaped us, but it couldn't escape Wiki.
Geronimo (Chiricahua: Goyaałé, "one who yawns"; often spelled Goyathlay or Goyahkla[1] in English) (June 16, 1829–February 17, 1909) was a prominent Native American leader of the Chiricahua Apache who fought against Mexico and the United States and their expansion into Apache tribal lands for several decades.
I got a bit of a kick out of the discussion about redundency consultants or corporate downsizers or hired firers or assholes or whatever. Apparently here the correct term would be scapegoat. I have a brother in law who worked for McKenzie (or was it Boston Counsulting? not sure now) back when GM was going through one of its periodic downsizings to keep Toyota from digging its grave too soon. Although the GM management knew very well where the redundencies were and who needed to go - and communicated that to the consltants they hired for cover - the GM folks were too concerned with union relations to appear to make the hard decisions and tell the union and the workers whose jobs were being eliminated that their future plans didn't include them - so they hired outside consulting firms to come in and put the gloss of analysis and legitimacy on what should have been management decisions. It was a gut wrenching job for my brother in law, who quit because of it. We called him Tom.
Oh, and most of those Roman and Greek guys are dead now, aren't they? Pity - I guess we'll jus thave to take the word of the ones who bothered to write it down.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 9:29 AM
well.... I read this weekend's thread..... stupid me....
Rosie..... so sorry for the lost of your pet.... animals give us such joy and ask so little in return..... please take care.....
Champ... if you really are gone.... I already miss you....
I agree with those who are puzzled over Craig's complaint of a swear all the while seeming to tolerate posts that are much more offensive to most of us.....
yes..... your idea of allowing free speech can be laudable, Craig..... but you are also giving a forum to bullies..... can't have one without the other, IMO....
Corey..... "jerk" is a good start..... I was thinking more along the lines of a word that begins with "A".... ends with "E".... and has a hole in the middle....
Bethy.... I bought it!..... went to a local bookstore this weekend and bought Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" and "Foucault's Pendulum".... they both look like juicy reading......
Posted by: RebelliousRenee
| November 17, 2008 9:31 AM
here's one article from the prior pirate story a few days ago. seems russia and britain have been working together on this problem for awhile.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081112.wpiracy1112/BNStory/International/home?cid=al_gam_mostview
Posted by: patd | November 17, 2008 9:34 AM
......spots R us......cicero was a really mixed bag....left a lot of writings.....letters and stuff he composed for speaking in that great hall, and to crowds of soldiers etc......
good book about the complexities of cicero is A PILLAR OF IRON by Taylor Caldwell......
The point "courage vs. honesty" would probably be best solved by wishing for a judicious measure and fortuitous mixture of both......
the athenians were not so much idiots as they were schizophrenic according to a prof i had oncet.....
Why does the New Italian Navy have glass bottom boats?
So they can see the OLD Italian Navy.
Posted by: sturgeone | November 17, 2008 9:36 AM
"I don't care about the Athenians. They were a bunch of idiots. "
-------------------------------
Only 46% of them Bow.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 9:36 AM
oh... and Corey.... so glad to hear you are back at work.....
the first hour of Diane Rehm this morning will be about the fate of the auto industry....... 10:00am-11:00am for those that are interested.....
Posted by: RebelliousRenee
| November 17, 2008 9:36 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174009
Anon,
Only when Mrs. Parker was drinking
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 9:44 AM
see he's been making the rounds hawking his new book, so will ted turner soon turn up on imus and the daily show? since ted said supportive things re t boone and imus seems to like ole t boone, seems ted would be a natural for imus.... boy could that turn in to a donnybrook given their respectively volatile sensibilities.
Posted by: patd | November 17, 2008 9:45 AM
Patd,
There is a lot of cooperation among the maritime powers. I just have an issue with a rich country like Saudi flagging its vessels in Liberia.
It's the maritime equivalent of a sweatshop.
Then when something goes wrong they will want help from the countries paying to keep the oceans safe.
Why not flag US and employ US crews????
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 9:45 AM
Rush Limbaugh:
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Chuck Hagel , not to praise him;
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 9:47 AM
Clinton Vetting Includes Look at Mr. Clinton
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/us/politics/17memo.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 9:50 AM
Patd _
Boone did the Daily Show last week, Jon and his audience were ready to follow him out of the building.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 9:51 AM
http://cavett.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/the-wild-wordsmith-of-wasilla/?em
RFLMAO. What a GREAT column by Cavett. Coupla reads, and it just gets funnier.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 9:54 AM
Jamie -
I thought you might spot that one. I was being obtuse about the Sat. thread. Apparently "Dorothy" wasn't the only one drinking.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:00 AM
"I envision a Government without parties, where all ideas are welcome and voted on independently"
Chloe, So did the Founders right up to the instant they tried to elect someone to replace Washington ... Instantaneous party divisions.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 10:00 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174020
Anon - and Huntington, WV is the worst - must be a bitch to live in the only place in the US that can't say "Thank god for . . ." I guess that explains why people in that area go to the Town Center Mall in Charleston to cruise and look at the scenery instead of the mall in Barboursville.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:01 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174052
Bowman, That always sounds like a great idea until you ask where those 90,000 people will be employed and by whom.
A large percentage of them come from areas that have no jobs or economic future.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 10:07 AM
She runs the gamut of emotions from A to B.
Dorothy Parker, speaking of Katharine Hepburn
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:10 AM
Pogo -
As Haley Barbour left for his governors meeting, the CDC also reported that Vermont had the lowest rate of premature births, and Miss. had the highest rate.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:15 AM
Anon, thank god for MIssissippi. (this is the 2nd state I've lived in that uses that line). LOL
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:20 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174073
I'm afraid the art of the literate quip has pretty well disappeared of late.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 10:22 AM
Just a reminder that Tylenol has requested ten songs from everyone that you either can't turn off, automatically sing along with or that makes you start dancing. As I understand the request, they don't have to be favorites or most important, just irrisistable.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 10:26 AM
Hard-core Beatles fans around the world are anxiously hoping for the release of Carnival of Light, a 14-minute long experimental track.
The song was recorded in 1967 just after the vocals for Penny Lane were taped.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2008/11/081117_beatles_lh.shtml
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:27 AM
jamie, I really don't know a lot about the military or the purposes for our personnel in the various duty stations, but what is the purpose of having 86K troops in Germany, Italy and the UK if you know? I assume there is some benefit to having a fair sized US presence in Europe to keep the Rooskies from getting any funny ideas, but I'm speculating. I think It might be of more concern to ask what happens to the 150K that are in Iraq if Obama pulls them out consistent with his pledge to do so (which happens to be pretty much exactly what the Iraqi parliament agreed to over the weekend - so much for Bush's insane "no time frame" rantings).
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:30 AM
Anon
McCartney must really be pushing on the others for permission. There was an AP released article yesterday about it that was all over the net.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 10:33 AM
So Craig the Palin book deal is reported to be between 5 & 11 million dollars.
I predict it won't be a 70,000 word volume.
Let's a all start a list of words for Sarah's forth coming book :
You betcha
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:34 AM
Jamie,
Move their details stateside.
Couldn't the same be said for the troops if we were to exit Iraq and Afghanistan?
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 10:34 AM
ty, "I Dig Rock 'n Roll Music" by the Mamas and Papas - I do dig R&R, but I hate that song and can't get it out of my head for about a week every time I happen to hear it. A close second - "Anticipation" by Carly Simon. Great song that I hate and sit around wondering when I'll hear again, and dreading it.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:35 AM
Anon,
Alaska
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:38 AM
Amon, you figure Palin's book will have pictures?
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:39 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174089
Nothing but, perhaps a pop-out or two also.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 10:42 AM
you figure Palin's book will have pictures?
You Betcha - Big colored ones of bowls of chili.
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:43 AM
Jack, If you're around, you won't be surprised today. They're back onto Palin again.
"The point "courage vs. honesty" would probably be best solved by wishing for a judicious measure and fortuitous mixture of both...."
I think you're right Sturge.......and I think it's interesting what your professor said about the athenians being schizophrenic. I seem to remember you mentioning something another professor of yours said once defining schizophrenia (or maybe I'm mis-remembering.) What ever it was, I remember it being really interesting too. :)
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 10:48 AM
I'm thinking it might be published, or at least printed by DC Comics.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:49 AM
Pogo,
It's my understanding that the STOF agreement only limits the amount of time that troops can remain. This is a UN requirement. It does not indicate a time-frame per se. We can be out earlier or later. It's just that another agreement would need to be signed if we stay longer.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 10:50 AM
Yes, Jack, and they're back on Bill and Hillary, too - they're in all the papers, and this is a political blog. Go figure. :-)
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 10:52 AM
Chloe,
I think the Athenian experience is why most democratic societies have opted for a republic structure as opposed to a democratic structure.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 10:52 AM
After Obama's win, white backlash festers in US
The election of a black president triggered at least 200 hate-related incidents, a watchdog group finds.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1117/p03s01-uspo.html
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 10:53 AM
Arianna Huffington will be guest hosting Rachel tonight, should be fun.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 10:54 AM
Somehow pogo, that didn't sound like you were discussing politics when you were demeaning Palin (comic books, etc.).
I guess I missed something. It sounded more like sarcasm to me, and about the fact that you don't consider her worthy and that you constantly make it clear that she's not intelligent enough to suit you. I think it's all pretty much been said by now.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 10:58 AM
jax, my understanding may be a little limited since I just heard it on CNN while driving the highways and byways, but what I thought I heard was that the Iraqi cabinet favorably voted on an agreement that would have all our combat troops out of Iraq by 2011. That might change-that sort of stuff does, but that sounds like a timeline to me, as does this coverage of it from the Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/world/middleeast/17iraq.html
"The proposed agreement, which took nearly a year to negotiate with the United States, not only sets a date for American troop withdrawal, but puts new restrictions on American combat operations in Iraq starting Jan. 1 and requires an American military pullback from urban areas by June 30. Those hard dates reflect a significant concession by the departing Bush administration, which had been publicly averse to timetables."
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:00 AM
Bowman and Pogo
All of those men and women could be brought back stateside, but what do you do with them then? There is a huge amount of infrastructure that needs to be rebuilt, but the military already keeps groups such as the Seabees unemployed and restricted to base so as not to conflict with local business.
The trouble with these world wide down turns is that they tend to reveal just how much "work" is just padding and totally unnecessary which of course makes the people doing the "work" unnecessary.
There usually has to be some huge infusion of cash and/or creativity to turn things around and that can take a decade or more.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 11:03 AM
Pogo,
Effectively, I doubt that it is any more of a timeline than this upcoming one. Does anyone really believe that we would have been out by Jan 1st. if this agreement isn't signed?
I think the key thing here is that the enemy (whoever they are) can't count on a definitive period from which to base their operations on. As I understand it that is the only real reason not to have a public time-frame to begin with.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:05 AM
"the fact that you don't consider her worthy and that you constantly make it clear that she's not intelligent enough to suit you"
Sounds about right to me, but since she insist on clutching to the limelight I'm sure many on this blog and in general will continue to comment that this person does not have what it takes to be a national leader. If she wanted to taken seriously as a national leader it strikes me that she would lay low and do some much needed homework, find herself a policy wonk or two who would be willing to mentor her and learn how not to say some of the amazingly stupid things she said during the campaign.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:07 AM
Pogo
The main reason for the foreign deployment is to have units available for anything that might transpire. They are also a way of supporting the economies of our friends in order to keep them friendly. Those men and women spend a lot of money. As mentioned above, the bases are used for other government agencies in addition to the embassies.
It is all just moving the coin of the realm around in circles.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 11:07 AM
Gee....and you promised to skip my posts....what a disappointment.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:09 AM
chloe, sarcasm, from me? About Palin? Surely not. But you're right, she ISN'T smart enough for me - well, for national politics IMNSHO - and she IS in the papers and she IS trying to mount an assault on a political future on the national stage (to say notihing of cashing in on her newfound celebrity), so yes I'm discussing politics and I don't feel too bad about linking a Cavett article on her that I just read this morning and made me laugh out loud or commenting on anything else about her that happens to come up - even if I'm the one who brings it up. And for the record, I didn't bring up the book deal, but I do love to ridicule Ms.Sarah at every opportunity.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:09 AM
Chloe -
Here's something on a higher plane, a clip of a whale shark taking a dump on the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7727136.stm
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 11:09 AM
Don't bring up whales either Anon, Palin doesn't believe they should be protected under the Endangered Species Act.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:11 AM
You know Chloe instead of attacking everyone who thinks Palin isn't up to being a national leader (after all that could take up anyone's free time). How bout defending her based on policy. Why not try to sell us on her, what qualities of her's and policy stands do you feel make her worthy of the role of political leader.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:15 AM
Sturg-----wonderful information,,,it fills in nicely with what i have,,you provide details (names and dates) in away that is hard to refute ----that is what im trying to do----please keep filling in---i will start filing a few more names and dates---thanks
Pogo--i did not mean that gordo was in any way was making headway with you,,,just that you and him for a few weeks were going around, and around,,yet u still managed to have your usual conversations--
Chloe----yes we do----
Patd-----i was a little late this am cos i had a mean desperado on my tail last night, and had to keep one eye open, and got there by my clock(sun dial) about 15 minn late---what was your hurry,,,and now u bring in marshal Dillon (jack) well i have to even up the sides now---gonna go get whispering pete---she is the fastes cowgirl with pistolas that ever wore pants (Patsi) oh u gonna get it now
why she is so mean that she chase of a feller out from ten, and made him crawl all the way to New York city---where he never leaves his casa----just pitafull just him and 27 dogs and one cat to feed them all,,i will let u know when i come a rollin back in town, and then-------
Posted by: SolarCrete
| November 17, 2008 11:15 AM
You know, I didn't ask for all of this, but got myself caught up in it as I sometimes unwisely do. Over the weekend, Jack made a couple of jokes about the amount of time on the blog spent discussing Palin. I was simply joking with him when I made that comment. I certainly wasn't intending it to defend her in anyway. I might find some of it distasteful, but so what, go for it. I really don't care, and I shouldn't have said anything. Whatever floats you boat is fine with me - ALWAYS.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:17 AM
Pogo,
I guess that's my biggest issue with alot of people on these blogs. Regardless of party affiliations. They love to ridicule.....it's not enough to point out policy shortcomings, or character issues. It's the pure love of ridicule....I think it's why there is so little respect for any public official and why many good potential candidates won't enter politics.....I think that the anonymity afforded by these blogs emboldens some to behave in way that they never would if speaking in person. It's a shame but it does speak volumes about many.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:17 AM
Sarah Palin isn't the smartest bulb in the socket, but I do admire that she worked hard for a job that only a few months before she had to ask "what does a vice-president do anyway?" I am not too surprised either to see people who didn't support the Democrats would complain about criticism being expressed about Sarah Palin. I'll add one of my own... I think she was so WRONG to suggest that Obama "pals around with terrorists". It was mean-spirited and STUPID. Also, in a country that has been on edge for at least 7 years re: terrorism, this was a "below the belt" slur. Her apparent hatred of Gays and her fundamentalist church ties makes her totally unqualified for office IMHO.
Sarah Palin is not a goddess figure who should be held above any scrutiny or criticism; she's a politician. If she, and her ardent supporters, cannot handle that, they should all find a new focus outside the political realm, because it's the nature of the game and no matter what you feel or hope, we know this will never end.
I enjoyed seeing Palin on SNL, but on policy, capacity and core values, she is not someone I could support (and I'd love to see a woman President sooner, rather than later).
Having said all this, I have to agree with Brian and say "Go Palin Go... 2012"
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:21 AM
"and learn how not to say some of the amazingly stupid things she said during the campaign. "
I know! Can you BELIEVE she said she'd been in all 57 states!!?? Whatta loon.
Posted by: Patsi
| November 17, 2008 11:21 AM
Chloe----correct picking --honesty over courage ---i think that when one has honesty, courage builds up in them cos it builds character, which is what is needed to be brave???
Posted by: SolarCrete
| November 17, 2008 11:22 AM
Jamie, I figured as much - my initial point was that there are many more forces in Iraq that will have to be dealt with as we draw down than there are in foreign deployments for other purposes, and who probably won't be redeployed at any rate, and I hope that something is being done to plan for their return. I'm guessing that some will go to Afghanistan, but there could be about 100K that won't.
Jax, I hear ya, but at least the Times sees this one as different. I don't know whether you or the Times is right or wrong, but ask me again in a couple of years.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:23 AM
"Sarah Palin is not a goddess figure who should be held above any scrutiny or criticism; she's a politician. If she, and her ardent supporters, cannot handle that, they should all find a new focus outside the political realm, "
Oh come on, Tom. I don't think she has "ardent supporters" here. Just some who question the motives behind the constant -- and tedious -- ridicule.
Posted by: Patsi
| November 17, 2008 11:24 AM
Oh is GORDO still around? I thought he finally decided to give it a rest. Silly me!
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:24 AM
Pogo,
I think it is different because things are truly winding down. I wouldn't be surprised if we drew down sooner rather than later. But i'll bet we keep some troops there longer than 3 years.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:25 AM
"---correct picking --honesty over courage ---i think that when one has honesty, courage builds up in them cos it builds character, which is what is needed to be brave???"
Solar, I'm beginning to wonder what I (and this blog) would do without you. Thanks.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:26 AM
Patsi, it seems like she does, but I'll cede the point. :-) I am curious (and I ask this because I respect your opinion) what do you think are the motives behind Palin criticism? Do you think it's worse than criticism directed at other politicians? Do you think it is only centered here or in the larger politicial spectrum?
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:28 AM
"Can you BELIEVE she said she'd been in all 57 states!!?? Whatta loon."
ROFLOL
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:28 AM
Jack -
Does this mean you'll be giving up ridicule ?
Posted by: Anon | November 17, 2008 11:31 AM
which came first, the honesty or the courage?
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:32 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174116
"57 states" was a slip of the tongue, "I can see Russia from my backyard" wasn't. Your comparison rings hollow, try again.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:33 AM
ok..... reporting on what was said on the Diane Rehm show ....... the consensus is that the government will give the auto industry some kind of help or "bailout" if you prefer that term...... there will be a discussion on giving them $25 billion in Congress later today..... I have no opinion either way..... I am not an economist and I don't want to play one on a blog....... and no.... I did not stay at a Holiday Express last night......
Jax..... your 11:17 is spot on!....
the ridicule and the endless..... and tedious..... repetition isn't worth my time....
I'm reading less and less of this blog..... but now have more time to devote to reading books...... so I guess in a ways.... I need to say..... thanks!... :0
Posted by: RebelliousRenee
| November 17, 2008 11:34 AM
Pogo
One of the purposes of the GI Bill following WW II was to keep men out of the work force while sending the women home. That extended educational period allowed for the draw down of the military production and the transition to civilian industries and manufacturing plus creating a pool of educated citizens that could be drawn on as needed for the mechanics of rebuilding Europe.
Then we sort of had to do it in reverse in the 60s and send all the women back to work to keep the average wage down once we were in back in competition with the world.
Now that is falling apart again with outsourcing of businesses to the lowest common denominator on wages and the elimination of manufacturing. While the world irons out those levels only the Chinese have money ... could get interesting.
Posted by: Jamie
| November 17, 2008 11:35 AM
jax, I said worse about Palin last weekend among Mrs. P's family, some of whom are dems, some repubs. I personally don't need anonymity to criticize Palin, or any other politician for that matter. Ridicule is part of the political discourse and criticism - and what are we doing here if we're not criticizing politicians at least in part? - and it has been pretty much forever from what I can tell - and will be pretty much forever if history is a teacher. I don't fault it - unless of course you're criticising the politicians I like. Then I get indignant.
Patsi, Palin certainly doesn't hold the only patent (or would that be copyright?) on stupid statements, does she? LOL
chloe, not to worry, I don't expect everyone to like anything I say or anyone to like everything. If you don't like it, comment on it, ignore, criticize it - it's all OK with me. Ignoring it is the only response that won't cause me to think about what I've said.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:35 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174052
The USA has military in Europe because they have determined it in their national interest to be stationed throughout the continent. I don't think tit is necessary for American soldiers to be stationed in Europe at all, but hey, I could be wrong...
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:37 AM
Hmmmm is it time for an electronic Trailmix BlOG HUG???
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:38 AM
Anon,
I agree/disagree on policies and actions. However I specifically respect the government office particularly the presidency.
I didn't vote for BO and I'll probably disagree with his policies but he's my president now and I'll personally confront anyone who disrepects the office that he holds.
You learn in the military to respect ones position and to follow orders regardless of your personal opinion. It's necessary in the military.
At the very least you'd think as citizens we could at least respect one's office.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:41 AM
Chloe
I am relieved. I was getting worried it had been three whole days with no Palin bashing.
Pogo
go for it,
There are day when being a bleacher bum is fun.
LOL
Buuuuuuuuuut.
It is one thing to go to Wriggly and yell obsenities at the outfielder. It is another to understand why that outfielder is standing in front of you.
I love to see the way the game is being played I'm not much of a bleacher bum most days
But as I said some days when the beer is plentiful and the sun is warm there is no better place in the world than a right field bleacher seat at Wriggly. ;-0
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack
| November 17, 2008 11:41 AM
"I can see Russia from my backyard"
Brian is an idiot but he already said he was among the self loathing
Posted by: sock drawer open | November 17, 2008 11:42 AM
"... the consensus is that the government will give the auto industry some kind of help or "bailout" if you prefer that term...... there will be a discussion on giving them $25 billion in Congress later today..."
Renee, I think that sounds good (even though I shouldn't have an opinion either, as I know nothing about it). But if they make this an incentive to move them in the right direction of developing vehicles with alternate forms of fuel or at least better mileage, etc., it could mean a lot more.
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:43 AM
Attack me all you want, doesn't change the fact Palin is an idiot.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:45 AM
jamie, I know that there have been changes in the GI bill even since the VN era, but I don't really know the details. My limited understanding is that the educational benefits aren't as robust as they were before. Regardless, education through the GI Bill certainly would be part of the post-Iraq planning. Good thing, too, the job market's gonna suck unless something dramatic happens in the economy.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:46 AM
Attack people you don't agree with all you want but it doesn't change the fact Brian is an idiot
Posted by: sock drawer open | November 17, 2008 11:46 AM
"Ignoring it is the only response that won't cause me to think about what I've said."
I have to go, but can't leave without responding to how sweet you are pogo. Thanks... :)
Posted by: chloe
| November 17, 2008 11:47 AM
Pogo,
My oldest is in college now and he says that his classes are full of Iraq/Afghanistan vets and that many are Nat'l guard/reservists. He knows one well and he is doing 2 years of school and going back for one year in Iraq next year. then he'll come back and do 2 more to finish school.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:49 AM
As much fun as this I have a doctor's appointment to get to.
Posted by: BrianInNYC
| November 17, 2008 11:49 AM
Sock, say what you will, but - on intellect - Brian is not an idiot....
Posted by: EuroTom
| November 17, 2008 11:51 AM
I don't think there's much doubt that the gov't is going to do something aobut the auto industry' swoes, (unless the Shelby's of the world mont a filibuster and get 40 senators to support it) the queston will be whther the money comes from the $700B set aside already or the $?? already there to help Detroit develop cleaner cars. The way Paulson's been dancing, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Congress amend the$700B bailout legislation to include Detroit as a target for the funds. Or not.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:52 AM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174144
He just plays one on TV.
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack
| November 17, 2008 11:53 AM
ET----i think that courage came first,,,it was needed to evolve,,,honesty( and the brain)had to be developed as group protection from predators and rivals was needed in order to survive---morals are innate in all animals,,and therefor honesty , that has to be developed---the wolf pack is a good example no?????
Posted by: SolarCrete
| November 17, 2008 11:54 AM
Look, chloe, sweet is one of the nicest things anyone's called me today. I hope you know it's never personal for me.
jax, I'm glad to hear that - an education is the least we can offer kids who choose to serve instead of whatever else they might do with their lives.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 11:55 AM
pogo,
I agree, I personally benefitted from it. It's not for everyone but you have be thankful that we live in a country that can offer this opportunity. Some make it a career but most use it as a stepping to better things.
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 11:58 AM
Speaking of not idiots, I'm always amused how one can throw out odd ball references, as my Roman one last night, and how many people will pick it up and play with it.
I'm begining to suspect that the quality of not idiocy around here is very high.
Change that. No begining or suspect about it , it is very evident.
Jack
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack
| November 17, 2008 12:00 PM
A glorious thread to you all, this morning !
Sturgeone,
Octavian and his successor for a couple centuries were called Princeps. This title denominated them as the First Citizen, with the right to put in the first word on any topic in the Senate, thus setting the agenda, and letting folks know what to think. The title Emperor wasn't used until much later.
Athens 'democracy' was actually an imperialist demogoguery. They enslaved their allies in the Delian League, stole the League treasury and squandered it on the Parthenon They slew every man, woman, child, puppy, and chicken in Mytilene for seceding. They sent their army off to a fight an elective war in a faraway place and only one man came back alive to tell of the disaster.
Sparta was a parasitic, fascist, war machine, fed and clothed by the labor of the conquered Helots, enslaved on State owned plantations.
It is hard to decide which society was more repulsive.
How our founding fathers ever found the political gold among all this dross to invent the successful American polity, is a mystery to me. The story that Franklin, particularly, urged the model of the Iroqouis seems as reasonable as the theory that we modeled on Athens and Rome.
Posted by: xrepublican
| November 17, 2008 12:05 PM
jax yeah, my other bro in law just got out last year after putting in 20 in the army, durig which time he got a dgree he would not have other wise gotten and stayed out of jail, which it is likely he would not have been able to do had he not gone into the service. It didn't turn him into anyone I'd want to live next door to - he still has his major demons as a human being, which IMHO haven't been lessened at all, and have perhaps even been exacerbated - but he's probably a whole lot better off educationally and occupationally now than he would have been in all likellihood.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 12:06 PM
A bailout of the big three automakers will not succeed without addressing the labor cost issues. They will still not be able to compete with the other automobile manufacturing plants operated in the US that have lower labor and benefit costs.
Posted by: Bowmanc
| November 17, 2008 12:06 PM
Well, it may be snowing, but I still want lunch - later.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 12:08 PM
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/weekend-roundup.html#comment-174153
Books could be written on that, Bowman.
Posted by: pogo
| November 17, 2008 12:09 PM
Xrep,
Athens did show that being democratic doesn't ensure that you are a good neighbor.....and the Roman Republic despite being democratic was no peach either.....
Posted by: jaxtrader
| November 17, 2008 12:10 PM
Brian is not idiot....ET
but he plays one on this blog
Posted by: sock drawer open | November 17, 2008 12:16 PM
Jax
I love the choice the Roman republic offered its neighbors. Resist and we will conquor you and enslave everybody or become an ally and provide the soldiers for us to expand our empire.
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack
| November 17, 2008 12:17 PM
Bowmanc
Gas is $1.53 at the Quiktrip on the corner of Truman and Sterling in Independence MO.
Half of the auto makers problems are solving themselves.
Jack
Posted by: whskyjack