Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

"better yet, drive themselves to Capitol Hill in one of their fuel-efficient cars."

duh! this should have been an automatic 1st choice. think of the promotional advertising value and the underlying statement of pride they would show in their products and in their employees. as i said so eloquently, duh!

speaking of ransoming, a pirate discount sale afoot:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601116&sid=ardZaTd5CQ7c&refer=africa

captain jack's pirate hats.

http://captjackspiratehats.com/

today's words for helen's and craig's project:

egocentric
monomaniacal
self agrandizement

it is about politicians, isn't it?

word up: Electile dysfunction

tsores: troubles, distress, problems

yiddish

tsores......(soor-ess) .......lenny used it in a sentence in the opening moments of "Lenny Bruce... Live at Carnegie Hall" in 1962

Morn'n all... Happy Thanksgiving week
Tis the time to hear - Thanks for Giving!

So Axelrod gave some CEO's a Kick in the......

Thanks for giving Mr Axelrod....

Sturg... You lead the way

Electile dysfunction - and the cure - A little BLUE pill

The GOoPers are already trying to break the confidence of the American people in their new administration. Very unpatriotic of them, isn't it? What happened to "country first"?

"Lincoln was a political genius, but his model for Cabinet-building should stand more as a cautionary tale than as a leadership manual."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-pinsker18-2008nov18,0,1360359.story
-------------------------------------------------------------------

It's also time for them to inject some church into the state...

"Obama's selection will perhaps be scrutinized more than that of any other recent president, given the attention paid during the election to his faith and his relationship to his former pastor, the controversial Rev. Jeremiah Wright."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6310182&page=1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we please let Team Obama give it a try before trying to break them down for the next election cycle?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing that gets me about the auto CEOs is that they are clueless when it comes to PR. How did they NOT know that flying in on private jets looking for a handout would look bad? Really, really bad.

Off to work - Sturg - "Thanks for Giving" a word up - already made my day.

Here is an interesting article on grass routes for Obama in Home town O-Town. So maybe another reason Barack spoke here first with both Hillary and Bill?????

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/winterpark/orl-obamafriends2308nov24,0,2818444.story

My turn to try and earn a "Thanks for Giving"...

Can we please let Team Obama give it a try before trying to break them down for the next election cycle?

---blueINdallas

blue, that's probably possible for most folks in the middle, but those pesky 33% are not gonna go for it......they want his chops busted early and repeatedly until he is ready to quit......those ones who think liberals are the end of america and all that.......

Tom Jones Live on Diane Sawyer's morning show

Blue -- It's not just Republicans giving very premature smackdowns. Here's a piece in AlterNet:

http://www.alternet.org/audits/107666/this_is_change_20_hawks%2C_clintonites_and_neocons_to_watch_for_in_obama%27s_white_house/?page=entire

hey, ping, how about this for a solution?

"Alistair Darling will announce today that income tax for those earning more than £150,000 a year will rise to 45p in the pound during the next parliament to help pay for Labour's £15bn anti-recession emergency package.....

The government hopes that, by targeting the rich, people on low and middle incomes will be reassured that they are not to be the victims of an aggressive spend-now-tax-later strategy. It is expected the measure will raise £2bn." [from today's guardian]

Fed Pledges Top $7.4 Trillion
"The U.S. government is prepared to lend more than $7.4 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers, or half the value of everything produced in the nation last year, to rescue the financial system since the credit markets seized up 15 months ago.

Bloomberg has requested details of Fed lending under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act and filed a federal lawsuit against the central bank Nov. 7 seeking to force disclosure of borrower banks and their collateral.".
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=arEE1iClqDrk&refer=home

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/obama-aide-targets-auto-jet-se.html#comment-176706

Blue,

It isnt just the auto CEO's. It is a phenomenon I've seen in many of those who have never experienced anything in their lives but reasonable comfort and success.

They will frequently say something that tells you they don't have a clue about what it is like to live month to month or that they automatically think anyone in poverty has done somethig to deserve their condition.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/obama-aide-targets-auto-jet-se.html#comment-176705

Jeez Blue,

We elected him at the beginning of the month, what's taking so long to fix everything George broke?

jodi head guitar straps..... styles for 2008

http://jodihead.com/2008.html

Chloe

That is way more scary then my bet on US auto makers surviveing to fight another day. That sounds as if they decided to bet the house.
I wonder what unintended consequence will bite us in the backside.
Maybe Bernacki is too much of a scholar of the deppression.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme"
Mark twain

Jack

"They will frequently say something that tells you they don't have a clue about what it is like to live month to month or that they automatically think anyone in poverty has done something to deserve their condition."

That's so true, Jamie. That's why I loved working with that multi-millionaire on some personal memoirs for about a year. He had grown up in such poverty -- and he "got it." He felt exactly the same way as you just expressed, by the way. He LOVED talking about some of his social and business associates who were completely clueless about the real world.

Jerusalem Post article on Obama chances of bringing Israeli - Palestinian peace

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404813509&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Amanpour to get her own show.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/business/media/24cnn.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

CNN will now have two shows on world issues courtesy of Zakaria and Amanpour.

It's about time the U.S. found out that we aren't the only kid on the block and its biggest bully as well.

"Obama chances of bringing Israeli - Palestinian peace"

I predict he has 2 chances at peace it the middle east, slim and none.

Besides he is going to be too busy here to worry about those folks.

Jack

Beinart article on the Clintonites in the Obama organization and just why this is a good idea.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-11-23/the-obama-clinton-administration

The money quote from the Amanpour article:

"Ms. Amanpour said she would continue to travel with the program, “because I’m a field person at heart, in my bones and in my DNA.”

“I think that’s massively important,” she said, “because you can’t just sit back and opine about the news; you have to actually go out there and cover it and report it.”

Right on Axelrod ! Corporate America still hasn't learned the basic lesson of fundamental fairness in compensating top executives. All these frills and golden handshakes are given to the top while the front line workers scrape day to day, paycheck to paycheck just HOPING to make ends meet. We all know it isn't easy and many have themselves primarily to blame, but corporations need to start being "meaner and leaner" STARTING at the TOP...

Personally I am for nationalizing the auto makers in the national interest whereas the government can set required standards for auto safety, functionality, energy saving etc... Obviously these companies have been protected for years by the likes of Congressman Dingell(berry). Now that he is out of that committee, it's time to come down hard on the "big 3" and DEMAND re-charting the path and priorities of their corporate vision.

Jack, I also think that Emmanuel being a former Israeli citizen raises concerns for middle-eastern muslims, not to mention those in other parts of the world. Israel has too much influence in America's policy making and funding decisions. I don't see this changing with President-elect Obama. Israel is, for so many, the sacred cow of international relations.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/obama-aide-targets-auto-jet-se.html#comment-176706

Blue they live in another reality, totally disconnected from the everyday person. They are people of privilege and expect nothing less than everything handed to them, on bended knees. They cannot see symbolism, because they cannot understand the disconnect among the classes. Oops, I forgot... America is a classless society. Yeah, right!

Funny protest sign outside the Mormon church which financed so much of the Proposition 8 anti-marriage initiative in California.

The sign reads:

'Brigham Young had 55 wives. I only want one'

BRILLIANT!!!

good morning gang....

I've managed to lurk some..... but my blogging habits are going to change for the holiday season.....

sometimes when the economy tightens, people stop buying so much little junk made in China and will buy several nice things made by craftspeople instead.... after all.... it's quality and American made....

that is what is happening for me..... my scarves are selling extremely well in my galleries..... they are asking for more..... one of my better selling places called this past Saturday and have asked me to be their featured artisan for the upcoming month of January.....

I have very little inventory left and am now working hard to make the hay while the sun is shining..... I won't be dropping off the face of the earth here.... I enjoy you all too much.... but I probably won't be posting much until after New Year's..... everyone take care!

There's one less reason to come here now.

"my scarves are selling extremely well in my galleries..... they are asking for more..... "

Great news, Renee!

And I agree with Corey -- you will leave a hole here!!!!

Renee Congrats on your success !!!!

Congratulations Renee

An upswing in fortune couldn't happen to a more deserving person.

I sincerely wish they would drop the multiple flag background to press conferences, speeches, and announcements.

It's a pretty piece of cloth but somebody must have heard about the concept of "less is more". It all comes across as phony and jingoistic.

Understatement is a good thing.

Go away George Bush....

The more Obama gets out front...the better people feel

spiderwoman - Happy Weaving!

crackers - I think W wants to get away. If he could speed up the countdown clock, he would do it. He would like to have less to say & do; just spend the next 8 weeks packing and pardoning.

I think most people feel better when info comes out of the Obama camp. (Except for the people who are afraid he will be a successful prez, of course.)

Do you really want to hurt me?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081124/people_nm/us_boygeorge;_ylt=Askt2vc1EtCTHQw7X65x0wJxFb8C

I don't know of anyone planning to spend, spend, spend this Friday. Too little, too late for retailers.
Is the gov't gonna bail them out, too?

Renee,
I'm with you....not a lot of economic activity taking place on this blog. Do you have a web address where i can find your products? As I've mentioned before I've decided not to participate in this recession....I could use some gift ideas....tks

Good economic news out of that small corner of New Hampshire ?
Lead the way Renee ..... Lead the way !

Over the weekend, there was a clip of the Mercedes storage lot at the Port of Los Angeles. Cars as far as the camera could see. Thousands of them sitting just there.

Bad grammar .

Jack -
That is the best of Twain's quotes.

Tom

My feelings about the Palistinian/Israeli problem is it is very far down the list on troubles that Obama needs to address both domestically or foreign policy. I suspect both of them are going to find few people with the time.

Besides, how many presidents have tried to address the problem, with little to no success? Looks to me as if they are going to have to come to terms all on their own and maybe that is for the best.

Jack

Hello Lovely People -- Can't stick around much today -- just dipping into the share this awesome website that some Deadheads on here will really enjoy -- the annotated Grateful Dead lyrics:

http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/

Now it's back to work for me. Cheers!

~Alicia

In case you missed it.

SNL

Bill Clinton about Hillary as SoS

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-bill-clinton/848689/

C Bob
re: twain quote.
I enjoyed it when I heard it a while back. Because while history never repeats itself sometimes things feel damned familiar.

Jack

RR---i couldn't be happier for you-------when working out side my workers and i ,wear hats (stocking hats) could u add matching ones to your line of scarfs ? happy holiday's

or, better yet http://www.mlive.com/grandrapids/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-44/12267333363750.xml&coll=6 g

Thought for the day :
" Toil is most pleasant when done. "

1868 Scott Joplin US, entertainer/composer (The Entertainer)
1911 Kirby Grant Butte MT, actor (Sky King)

" From out of the blue of the western sky ........ "

1859 Charles Darwin publishes "On the Origin of Species"
1954 1st US Presidential airplane christened
1963 1st live murder on TV-Jack Ruby shoots Lee Harvey Oswald
1966 400 die of respiratory failure & heart attack in killer NYC smog

"It all comes across as phony and jingoistic."

Exactly.

Jamie is that another SNL parody?

Speaking of history repeating. Maybe Craig can tell me if MSNBC uses recorded pieces and then having an anchor at whatever hour ask scripted questions that the recorded pieces answer.

You can frequently see guests or spokespeople apparently saying exactly the same thing word for word. It appears to be live, but I have my doubts.

I know this technique is used on radio networks and I wonder if NBC and other news outlets do the same.

That's wonderful, Renee! Happy weaving!

Patsi

It has some very funny lines about what bad acting foreign governments should do when HIllary comes to speak to them.

Best headline today -

NC carjacking suspect clubbed with frozen turkey

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110ap_odd_turkey_club.html

Sturgeone

The only Captain Jack that interests me is Capt. Jack Harkness of Dr. Who and Torchwood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Harkness

Unfortunately, for any swiftly beating female hearts, John Barrowman who plays him is openly gay and paired off.

Still we can petition for him to sing next season. :-)

Scariest headline today -

Indonesian AIDS patients face microchip monitoring

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h8hyiNfeN4rzKtKEIOrmykpiGTlQD94LDRBG0

Hannity & Colmes split up:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/1108/Hannity_and_Colmes_split_up.html

Corey -
Who knew that Boy George would end-up looking like some villain in a "B" mob movie.

Patsi -

" Although it’s bittersweet to leave one of the longest marriages on cable news, "

Think of the children Alan, think of the children.

"Think of the children Alan, think of the children."

Ha -- maybe we should email Hannity and tell him he shouldn't have taken Prop 8 so personally....

Patsi
Re: Hannity and Colmes---i am glade,,i always thought that people like him, and Ben Kingsly personality's didn't do too good against an aggressive Hannity,,,someone like Bob Beckle is more to my taste for a one on one with him.

It isn't even Thanksgiving yet..

http://sarah-palin-2012.blogspot.com/2008/11/barack-obama-honeymoon-killer.html

Lets Get This Party Started...in Here..

http://imustimes.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/imus-obama-comedy-embargo/

Back to the topic -

The jet story seems to me to be just another handy metaphor for the whole big fat thick file of excess our country engaged in , all of it built on a daisy chain of IOU's.

One thing I that always got under my skin, was big time sports, and it's ability to stick the tax payers with the tab for these temples of excess.

From TPM Reader DB ...

What makes Citi's sponsorship of the new stadium even more absurd is that although the Mets paid for a decent amount of the construction, a lot was subsidized as per this article in the Times. So basically the tax payers give money to Citi to get naming rights to a stadium that the tax payers partially built so the Mets can raise ticket prices to a level that your average New Yorker cannot afford. But hey, the Citi execs will still have their luxury boxes!!!

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/245652.php

The latest twist on this was the idea that a season ticket holder had to "buy" the rights to seats, to "buy" season tickets. I forget the term that was cooked - up for this scam, but like housing prices, I expect it to collapse as well.

Ree -
We'll get started making fun of Obama as soon as we finish power washing to the Kill Obama graffiti off the walls.

http://news.google.com/news?um=1&tab=wn&nolr=1&hl=en&q=kill+obama+graffiti+&btnG=Search+News

"one of my better selling places called this past Saturday and have asked me to be their featured artisan for the upcoming month of January....."

renee, your work must be beautiful.
where can we see it? and buy it?

Desperate Crossings:

The untold story of the May Flower----on the History Channel
Wed. 26 th ---8 a.m.----and at 2 p.m.

"The college said the four students were responsible for painting threats to Obama on the school's Free Expression Tunnel on campus"

Cbob

I think this quote from one of the links you posted answer the question to the article Ree posted.

Is Irony dead?
To which I have to say , No. it is just not cultivated anymore.

It has been turned free and like a noxious weed it seems to be everywhere you look.

Jack

Graffiti and google news -

An interesting thing that google news search will do -

If one enters " kill bush graffiti " , and expands the search to include all dates. There are 2 hits from March 2004 in Denver, both report on the same incident. The next one that comes up is from May 1993, and it refers to the ploy in Kuwait to kill the elder Bush.

Funny how all those "Bush Haters" never took up their cans of spray paint.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&q=kill+bush+graffiti

Jack -

Weeds indeed.

The incident you noticed was just after the election, but the tagging is cooking right a long.

The latest is from McAllen, Texas.

I'm glad I don't work for the Secret Service, and I hope they get plenty of help.

Solar -
Thanks for that heads up, on the Mayflower program, one wonders how they found time to squeeze it in between all the search for monsters programing.

My cynicism cup was beginning to over flow, but then I was redeemed -

Monkey Waiters Hired In Japanese Restaurant Due To Economic Downturn (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/24/monkey-waiters-hired-in-j_n_146075.html

Wolverines
Studebakers
Monkey Waiters

There's a song in there somewhere.

CB

i had that taped before(must have taped over) and could not provide names and dates to Cory's question about it----it is very detailed, and will give one something to think about.

Rosie -

Here's someone you may enjoy Vic in B.C. -

I live in a tiny village in the Northern Cariboo region where our winters are very long and very cold often dropping to -30C(-22F) or below in winter. We are surrounded by wilderness and wild animals are our neighbours.

http://www.caribooponderer.com/

C-bob

Remember there are always haters and stupid people that believe them. But in the end they mostly represent them selves and not any greater movement.

A lot of tagging can be done by 1 person.

I live in a neighborhood that gets a lot of gang tagging but the taggers are one or two people out of several thousand. Most time they don't even live in the neighborhood they tag.

Jack

I may be in a religious rut-----but i just heard one of my neighbors tell my wife that she will pray for Obama-----can't hurt is the usual reply ---but does' it help?

I have about lets say 100 people in my life that may pray for me,,,and should do pretty good according to their prayers-------Now lets extrapolate the prayers of the country for our new President Elect,,,there are a lot of people praying for him-----------we have nothing to worry about-----and he should be one of the healthiest people alive----the power of prayer===don't worry be happy :-))))))

The auto companies can get rid of their resorts, and exec dining rooms etc. The companies need fewer execs. Can half of them. Can their secretaries. Replace them with the guys who are making 80 mpg vehicles in their garages. $100,000 salaries - tops. This country needs young thinkers to turn the auto industry into something of value, the way the Microsoft and Apple guys took IBM and Xerox technology and made something of that.

Scroo subsidizing any dinosaurs who have kept innovative technologies off the market, and who have proven that they can't live off life support.

Thanks CB-but as I sit here with my feet on the heater and looking out the window at this bright, cold and snow filled vista, I'm much more interested in palm trees and beaches. You know it's a real quick trip from AK to HI.

"Monkey Waiters"

I've been served by that waiter....

Like I said before, if the companies are going to be bailed out, the lender (ie the gove'mt) should go in and fire all the exec. and ceo that caused the problem to begin with. Get an 'effeciency expert' :) in there to clean the places up.

Personally, I was thinking about buying a new Chevy or Ford very soon. I'm going to wait and see if the gov't bails them. If they do I'll definitely boycott them instead. If they are doing poorly then they should have to go bankrupt like I would. Forget the bailout.
I'll but an american made foreign car instead.

Rosie,
Did you just say that the GOV'Tt should get an efficiency expert?.....laughs......:)

Solar, I hope to heaven the mass of people are praying for universal mandatory healthcare, and that most people of all persuasions pray for the genuine success of our "Great Experiment." And I hope they pray for tolerance.

Om Mani Ban Me Hum

I'm all for universal healthcare as long as I don't have pay for it or use it.....laughs

Jax. thats like getting a doctor for a dead man.

Flatus---ditto --how long were u in the military?

I don't want to guess------Om Mani Ban Me Hum---Korean for ?

Solar-are you floating out in cyber space all by your lonesome?

never lonely ----just alone

But there are many members of the Board.

Had to answer the phone--back now--------that r u up to -?

Solar@5:21

It's one of the many possible spellings for a Buddhist mantra. See more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om_Mani_Padme_Hum

Solar@5:13

Spent six years in the Army and another sixteen in the Air Force.

If you're talking to me, I'm just killing time until 3:30 AK time. After that, I'm going to the cities big sports bar and watch me some FOOTBALL! I never miss a game.

WiskeyJ -

Taggers -
Young men with time on their hands. It's been a dangerous group since we first walked upright. The Chinese now have a huge pool of them to keep busy, thanks to their culture, and the one child rule.
It was one of the reasons for the 1st Crusade, Pope Urban saw it as a jobs program, as well as a religious one. Lots of knights roaming the country side of Europe, tagging people in the head. Better to send them off to the Holy Land to tag Muslims in the head.

Mantra of compassion---i like it.--Not hard to say either!

Citi Bank -

One can only hope, that they will have fees, and increased interest rates heaped on them . Sort of like their credit card terms. And above all the agreements must be written in dense boiler plate, that is designed to screw them if they make even the tiniest mistake.

Have a good time Rosie---I don't watch sports any more-----still play some softball(16 inch)third base,,,and basketball for 50 and older guys,,,and when the kids knock on my door and ask if i can go out and shoot some hoops.

In a cost-cutting move, GM is ending it's endorsement deal with Tiger Woods.

Alice in Wonderland - The Trial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqhhAe1UE58

C bob

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/obama-aide-targets-auto-jet-se.html#comment-176802

Rape and pillage ah those were the days.

btw

The frontier servied the same purpose for the civilised folks back east. Billy the kid was from back east wasn't he?

Jack

"Mantra of compassion---i like it.--Not hard to say either!"

SolarCrete finds religion ?

As religions go, Buddhism is pretty nontheistic, depending on the denomination/sect.

Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity is losing his liberal half.

Alan Colmes of the network's "Hannity & Colmes" said on his Web site Monday that he'll be leaving the prime-time show after 12 years. He said he approached a network executive earlier this year about doing something else.

heehee

XR---Wattsa matta u ?------no i haven't found religion,,,just like the spirit of compassion,,,i like the Hindu---Vedanta.

Learning how to type I talian------How u b?

Jack and CBob

The Seven Deadly Virtues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dmYR7PN-Ow

"As religions go, Buddhism is pretty nontheistic, depending on the denomination/sect." xr@6:37

While not being critical of theists. Makes the theists crazy.

Jack, up through the early 19th century, European common soldiers saw rape and pillaging as being their compensation as they generally weren't paid a 'salary'. Certainly gave cities a strong motivation for resisting sieges.

In much of Africa, that barbaric practice is still the norm.

damn.....it took so long to read the entire day's postings that now I dont have the first goddammed thing to say.................I am flabermagorsted........

XR-
Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?--a little paradox, by

Karen Owens

The Melian dialogue is a passage found in Book V (85-113) of the History of the Peloponnesian War by the ancient Greek historian Thucydides. It is a classic example of the clash of liberal and realist ideas about international relations, and is often paraphrased in discussions of realist thought. It is an unusual piece of text, as it is written in the style of a theatrical dialogue, rather than a record of opposing speeches as Thucydides usually wrote.

wikipedia

The historical background of this portion of the History is the invasion of the island of Melos by Athens in 416 BC during the Peloponnesian War. The Melians had always resisted the influence of the Delian League, and resisted this invasion as well. Thucydides writes that both sides held a meeting where they presented their arguments for and against the invasion. This was held between "the governing body and the few," not before the people, leading the Athenians to imply that the Melian elite was afraid that the people might support the Athenian position. The dialogue as written in the History probably reflects Thucydides' personal view of the invasion of Melos, rather than accurately recording the specific speeches delivered at the meeting.

texas tornados guacamole

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIW2Teg4F6k

Not too many ;more to go

Secret of Jesus- cont

The Quamran scrolls make it extremely difficult to separate John the Baptists teachings as reported in the gospels from the mainstream of the Jewish military-messianic tradition. In he ambience of the prolonged and bloody guerrilla war with Rome, the Baptist"s metaphor of chaff burned in unquench-able fire cannot reasonable be opposed to what the Quamranites predict about a blazing torch in a swath of grain. the earthly context in which his behavior should be judged can't be that of a religion as yet unborn.?? I can only think of his reported sayings and actions in the context of a dusty, surging ragtag mass of peasants, guerrillas, tax evaders, and thieves,knee-deep in the Jordan , burning with an unquenchable hatred for the Herodian tyrants, puppet priests, arrogant Roman Governors, and heathen soldiers who farted in holy places.

Immediately after the Baptist was captured--probably while he was still awaiting trial in Herod Antipas frison-Jesus began to preach among precisely the same kind of people and under the same kinds of risky conditions. The resemblance in lifestyle was so great that among Jesus first disciples, at least two-the brothers Andrew and Simon Peter( st. Peter)--were former followers of the Baptist. Herod Antipas later found so little difference between Jesus and the Baptist that he is said to have remarked, It is John, whom I beheaded, he is risen from the dead. At first Jesus did most of his preaching in the backk country,performing miracles and attracting large crowds. He was probably always only one jump ahead of the police. Like John the Baptist and the messianic messengers discussed by Joseephus, Jesus was launched on a collision course that would end either in his arrest or in a cataclysmic insurrection.
The logic of his growing popularity drew Jesus forward into increasingly dangerous exploits, Before long, he and his disciples set out to missionize Jerusalem, the promised capital ff the future Holy Jewish Empire. Deliberately invoking the messianic symbolism of the Book of Zechariah, Jesus rode through the gates mounted on a donkey ( or possibly a pony), Sunday School teachers clain that Jesus did this because it signified and intent to speak peace unto the heathen, This ignores the overwhelmingly military-messianic significance of everything else in Zechariah's messiah appears, lowly and riding on an ass, the sons of Zion devour and subdue...and become mighty men which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in battle because the Lord is with them and the riders on horses shall be confounded.
The lowly figure on the ass was not a peaceful messiah, It was the messiah of a small nation and its apparently harmless price of war, a descendant of David, who also rose from apparent weakness to confound and subdue the enemy's horsemen and charioteers. The heathen were to have peace--but it was to be the peace of the long-awaited Holy Jewish Empire. That at least is how the crowds who lined the way understood what was happening, for as Jesus passed by , they shouted: Hosanna! Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed be the Kingdom of our Father Davis that is coming!
Nor was there anything notably peaceful in what Jesus and his disciples did after they entered the city, By choosing to invade Jerusalem just before the beginning of Passover, they assured themselves the protection of thousands of holiday pilgrims arriving from the countryside and from all over the Mediterranean,. Zealot-bandits, peasant, laborers, beggers, and other potentially volatile groups were all streaming into the city at the same time. During the day Jesus was nowhere unless surrounded by tumultuous and ecstatic crowds. When it became dark he slipped away to the houses of friends, keeping his whereabouts hidden from all but the inner core of disciples
Jesus and his disciples did nothing that would have distinguished them from the members of and incipient military messianic movement. They even provoked at least one violent confrontation. They stormed into the courtyard of the great temple and physically attacked the licensed businessmen,who changed currencies so that foreign pilgrims could purchase sacrificial animals. Jesus himself used a whip during this incident.
The gospels recount how Caiaphas , the High Priest, plotted to arrest Jesus. Since Caiaphas witnessed the violent attack against the money changers, he could not have entertained any doubts about the legality of putting Jesus in jail. What Caiaphas had to figure out was how to arrest Jesus without provoking all the people who thought he was the messiah. Mobs were extremely dangerous lin those days before the invention of shotguns and tear gas, especially if the people believed they had an invincible leader. So Caiaiphas instructed the police to take Jesus, but not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.

Sturg, I took a year of Hellenistic history; was not my best subject. But, even years later, helps me put some things in context.

Hey everyone...... thanks for all the kind words!....
it's only til the end of December....... course it does mean I'll be getting a later start to working on the one summer craft fair I do.....

Jax and patd.... I don't do a website..... I know many professional craftspeople who have abandoned theirs ...... people want to touch and see crafts before they buy...... besides...... I do scarves with several different fibers in many, many different color combinations..... whatever strikes my fancy..... websites work well if you do things in one size with maybe 6-8 colors and you repeat it over and over again..... IOW..... booooooring.....

Harborwoman..... I forgot to say...... Happy Belated Birthday!

I might not be online again this week...... gotta take my mother to have her left eye done with cataract surgery tomorrow morning and all those follow-ups with all that driving.... so let me say now...... Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Come on people, we need the Jet Set. It gives us something we can aspire to. I would love to fly around the country in a private jet. I would name it the Bowjet. It makes me feel good to know that not everyone is crawling along in hybrids and "Smart" cars.

I sure would not want to be in one of them things with a big ol Peterbilt on my tail.

SolarCrete,
I still b laughing.

I'm not much for Hinduism. God of Missed Appoinments, Goddess of Parking Meters and Pay Toilets, etc. Juggernauts and Panjandrums leave me cold. I used to read translations of Upanishads. The early Upanishads had some philosophy that I liked at the time, not enough to swallow the 35,000 deities in a gulp. I swallow beef. Tons of beef, plus lamb, chicken, turkey,and fish. Type O carnivore, I. I have the makings of a very unsatisfactory Hindu, for sure.

It's interesting to see that fundamentalist Hindu terrorists engage in ethnic 'cleansing' of Muslims in South India, & burn down Mosques. They also blow people up in Sri Lanka and Kashmir. Some years ago, fundamentalist Buddhists in Burma 'cleansed' all the Muslims into Bangla Desh. Late Tang dynasty Confucists were very mean to Buddhists and Muslims. Buddhists repeatedly waged war on the ffeudal system of medieval Japan. It's all very 'Western' and unmystical to me.

Renee, Best of luck to you and your mom!

el fin:

Arguments
In the passage, the Athenians present the Melians with a choice: the island may pay tribute to Athens and thus survive, or fight Athens and be destroyed. The Melians respond by arguing that their neutrality should be respected, and that international law guarantees their right to neutrality. The Melians also present several other counter-arguments, namely that showing mercy towards Melos will win the Athenians more friends; that the Spartans will come to Melos' aid; and finally that the gods will protect the island. The Athenians, however, refuse to discuss either the justice of their demand or any substantive argument advanced by the Melians. Instead the Athenians offer a sharp, simple, and oft-quoted formula of hard realism: The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. The Athenians further suggest that the Spartans are no strangers to this principle, and thus that the Spartans will not assist the weak Melians if doing so is to Sparta's disadvantage.

Outcome
Ultimately the Melians refuse to submit, saying that while they are prepared to fight, they would prefer to be "friends of yours and enemies of neither side". The Athenians, unsatisfied, immediately besiege Melos, and though the Melians hold them off for a short while, Melos is finally defeated, due to a combination of events: reinforcements from Athens, the (accurately predicted) lack of support by the Spartans, and treachery from within Melos. According to Thucydides' dispassionate report, the victorious Athenians execute every adult Melian man, sell every woman and child into slavery, and colonize the now-depopulated island.

wikipedia

the thucydides version is really stark

SolarCrete,

Re the Baptist & Jesus : when Jesus is near the ford where the Baptist operated, 2 guys approached and addressed Jesus as 'Rabbi.' Christian texts usually translate this 'rabbi' as 'master' to avoid giving the impression that Jesus is a Jew. Not only does this manner of address demonstrate that Jesus is a Jew, it demonstrates that he is a Pharisee, and a teacher. Sadducees did not have rabbis. Jewish teachers at that time did not take pay, but supported themselves as craftsmen, laborers, etc. So, teaching was very democratic. This was a dramatic difference from Greek practise, in which sophists, debate coaches, etc. charged their students. This practise limited education to those who were well to do. So, the implication is that Jesus was democratic and approachable for people of any class.

That's sho-biz.........

Not too much has changed.

The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. The Athenians further suggest that the Spartans are no strangers to this principle, and thus that the Spartans will not assist the weak Melians if doing so is to Sparta's disadvantage.

not too much has changed.........the names have been changed to protect the innocent

---Joe Friday

XR--understood---just showing his where abouts that r important to the whole narrative.

yeah from spartan to bushtrons

that was no spartan......that was my WIFE..........

This can't be true ----just read that it takes on average---17 interviews to get hired for a job?????

only takes one interview if youre willing to lie..........

I'm setting here playing John Prine and the wife is singing along. We've done three or four already. I'll sneak this one in for you folks

Paridise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEy6EuZp9IY

only takes one interview if youre willing to lie..........

Or tell the truth for that matter. Then you only interview for a job that you want. and you fit .

Jack

Solar,

Of course it can be true, and if you look at it from the other side it is just as bad. When I was interviewing people for positions at my company, I was astounded how many unqualified people applied. And then when I interviewed the ones that looked promising on paper, I was amazed how poorly people presented themselves during the interview. So it is nice to say everyone should earn a living wage..., but if they do not bring value to the company, why on earth would you hire them or keep them on the payroll. For a company to be profitable the workers have to produce things of greater value that the cost of their compensation. That goes for executives as well as line workers. If not, you end up with companies like the big three that lose money on every car they make.

I hate being turned down by an employer------i went in for a trk driving job at a concrete co.,,,the manager asked if i had a cdl lic.,,said that if i came back with a learners permit in the next cpl of days i could start learning how to drive a concrete trk-----i i went to the sec of state got a book read it and passed, got a learners permit,,,went back to the same guy and showed him,,,he was kind of surprised ---but kept his word after i just would not go away----drove one for 14 years---late 3-4 times,,and missed 3-4 times,,,that is how i got into construction,,,,,,,u never know!

Bow----sorry for not being clear--the article said 17 diff interviews that one person goes to---17 diff co's----but your point is well taken

Te brain isn't working that well but It was when the Athenians attacked the island of sicily( Ican't remember the name at the time. They were captured and enslaved to work in the saltmines.

I believe it was Herodotus. who said they did as men do and suffered as men must.

Between flatus's comments about soldiers pay and Sturge's comment about the Athenians one remembers how brutal the past has been and how fortunate we are.

Jack

Once upon a time, I got a job in a printing company in nashville.....R&S printing.........they were used to transients applying........but on my app I wrote that I was familiar with Bell and Howell folders.......and a cutting machine of some sort or another......the collator.....and any name of any machine I could remember.......

the old man......Mr Satterwhite (of R and S) said, "you get this job because we have a lot of people pass thru but most of them cant name the machines....."

Bowmanc

As long as i had work,,we group shared and did pretty good,,,i train my workers to do it all--i do understand your position of a work force that r specialized, and therefore can't ----but i jst wanted u to know that it works pretty well it the opportunity is there.---thanks

jack.....the sicily invasion was on the same war which the seige of the island of melos was.....the invasion of sicily revolves around Alcibiades.......who missed it due to the perfidy of athens and stroked it on up to sparta......but the invasion of sicily was turned around after sparta sent one man to the island to deal with the athenian invasion........he dealt with it and most of the athenians wound up in intense displeasure in most heinously cruel circumstances.......

alas........had they only listened to Nicias

Jack ----that's why i asked Flatus how long he was in the military----22 years,,he has my respect-----he saw some of the world,,good and bad----

yes we are more fortunate now than in the past,,i hope that we can recover as a nation, so it won't slide too much in the reverse--people can get pretty ugly.

One person's biased commentary:

.. Unless It's All Greek to Him
By Barbara Garson
Barbara Garson is the author of the 1960s antiwar play "Macbird" and, most recently, "Money Makes the World Go Round" (Penguin, 2002).

September 23, 2004

During a lull in the war between Athens and Sparta, the Athenians decided to invade and occupy Sicily. Thucydides tells us in "The Peloponnesian War" that "they were, for the most part, ignorant of the size of the island and the numbers of its inhabitants … and they did not realize that they were taking on a war of almost the same magnitude as their war against the Peloponnesians."

According to Thucydides, the digression into Sicily in 416 BC — a sideshow that involved lying exiles, hopeful contractors, politicized intelligence, a doctrine of preemption — ultimately cost Athens everything, including its democracy.

Nicias, the most experienced Athenian general, had not wanted to be chosen for the command. "His view was that the city was making a mistake and, on a slight pretext which looked reasonable, was in fact aiming at conquering the whole of Sicily — a considerable undertaking indeed," wrote Thucydides.

Nicias warned that it was the wrong war against the wrong enemy and that the Athenians were ignoring their real enemies — the Spartans — while creating new enemies elsewhere. "It is senseless to go against people who, even if conquered, could not be controlled," he argued.

Hank

I"m so lonesome I could cry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvW6_-TP5cs

Solar,
We have trouble getting people with basic skills like being able to read job instructions.

Sturge,

We need bindery help, based on your last comment, We could use you. Leominster, MA is probably too long a commute for you.

Gary P Nunn Lost Gonzo Band London Homesick Blues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4EBwiG_PX4&feature=related

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/obama-aide-targets-auto-jet-se.html#comment-176848

Sounds an awful like the present dude in the casa blanca
that lives there-----History does repeat it's self?

Bow.......I played leominster oncet......the Buttercup lounge......with the Snakeman, Joe Savage........Printing is out of my line now, as is low wages......but Im sure it would be a gas........

I meant to say that the Greek and Roman practise was to take pay, and was therefore undemocratic.'

In part, the 'Jewish War', as the Sadducee and Roman collaborator Josephus called it, was a class war. In part it was a religious and nationalist war. It was organized by democratic, nationalist, Pharisee teachers, like the Baptist against idol-worshipping, human sacrificing, plutocratic foreigners.

Your point, I believe, is that Jesus was one of the democratic, nationalist, religious, Pharisaic teachers of Judaism. I can't see him being anything else.

uplifting Economic News;

Got this in my in-box today. Can't vouch for the accuracy of the closings list.

Gift cards can be lumps of coal

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2008-11-17-gift-cards-cash-block_N.htm

Recent Store Closing Announcements:


* Circuit City to close by year's end - Circuit City – 155 stores to be closed nationwide
* Ann Taylor Stores To Close 117 Stores, Cut Staff
* Lane Bryant, Fashion Bug, Catherine’s closing 150 stores
* 60 Eddie Bauer stores to be closed
* Cache/La Cache closing shop – all stores closed
* Talbots, J. Jill, Sigrid Olsen closing all stores
* Gap Inc. closing 85 stores
* Foot Locker Closing 250 Stores
* Wickes Furniture is closing after filing bankruptcy
* Zales Closing More Jewelry Stores to Total 105 in 2008
* Piercing Pagoda closing all stores
* Whitehall Jewelers to close
* Value City to close
* Disney to shutter 98 stores
* Home Depot closing 15 stores
* Macy's to close 9 stores
* Linens 'n Things will close all 317 of its remaining stores in 48 states
* Lone Star Steakhouse to close 27 stores
* Movie Gallery closing 520 stores
* Pacific Sunwear to Close Remaining 154 Stores
* Pep Boys to close stores, reduce staff
* Pier 1 Imports closing 25 more stores after shedding 79 stores in 2007
* Friedman's Jewelers closing 473 stores
* Dell Computers is closing 140 retail stores
* 84 Lumber closed 12 stores
*Rite Aid closing 28 stores
* Big Dollar closing 10 stores
* Sofa Express closed all 44 stores
* Sprint Nextel to cut 4000 jobs, close 125 stores
*J. C. PENNEY PLANS TO CLOSE UP TO 50 STORES
* $5.6 million tax lien filed against Ethan Allen
* Wilsons Leather to close 160 mall stores, cut 1000 jobs ...
* Sharper Image Closing All Stores
* KB Toys to close 375 stores, cut 3500 jobs
* Dillard’s will close more stores in 2009
* CompUSA Shutting Down All Stores
* CostPlus World Market closing 18 stores
* Lillian Vernon files for bankruptcy, goes out of business
* Mervyns to close remaining 149 stores
* Mikasa brand for sale; all 86 factory outlet stores to close
* Rent-A-Center Closing 280 Stores Nationwide
* Shoe Pavilion closing all 64 store locations
* Starbucks to Close 600 Stores
* Steve & Barry’s Out of Business / Liquidated
* Trans World liquidates 138 stores (Sam Goody, Suncoast Motion Picture Company, Wherehouse Music, f.y.e.)
* Discovery Channel Stores closing its 103-store Discovery Channel chain
* Entertainment Solutions, a retailer of high-end electronics, to shutter stores
* Sears to close 19 stores, including 8 Kmarts, 2 Sears mall stores, 1 Sears Grand, 1 Sears Essentials and the remaining 7 Great Indoors stores (and you thought kmart was already extinct)

If you like that kinda thing, the story of the life of Alcibiades is a whizz-banger.........

Solar

In my neighborhood we have many refugees from many wars. From the old woman who blessed me because I gave her a rose out of my garden. She was taken as slave labor by the Nazis and saw her brother killed in front of her because he smoked a cigarette. Or the Cambodian couple who run the restaurant on the corner. She once had 6 brothers and sister. only she and her mother survived the killing fields .

Some times like you I feel my life has been rough. then I look at those folks...........

Jack

Renee - great news about your success! It cheers me to know that beauty isn't being ignored.

Solar - thanks for the reminder about Desperate Crossing - I've been pushing it for a while here. It illustrates so well the problems that arise from church and state mixing. Those puritans were running away from their own government which was trying to takeover their church, and that is a fore-gone conclusion when the two mix. If you haven't seen it, it is worth your time.

Wonderful to hear about Amanpour and Zakaria - I wonder if that means his show will change at all. CNN is throwing plenty of dust for msnbc to choke on. Maybe they'll have KO and Tweety on to explicate international news news and reactions and fears. HA!
Can't you hear KO giving a special comment to Angela Merkel? And Tweety telling Gordon Brown to not interrupt him?

Bow--about 8-9 years ago i had 28 workers,,,15 new that were being trained by others that were trained by me,,,i have known construction co's that will have a worker on one specific job for years with no intentions of teaching them anything else,,,,i feel this is so wrong on so many levels,,but won't go into them-

it was a pleasure to get up in the am and go work with all of them,,,and i made sure that they (most ) could understand and read a blue print---some a little better than others,,,but after a while they all catch up

Alcibiades Cleiniou Scambonides
Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, from the deme of Skambonidai; c. 450–404 BC), was a prominent Athenian statesman, orator, and general. He was the last famous member of his mother's aristocratic family, the Alcmaeonidae, which fell from prominence after the Peloponnesian War. He played a major role in the second half of that conflict as a strategic advisor, military commander, and politician.

During the course of the Peloponnesian War, Alcibiades changed his political allegiance on several occasions. In his native Athens in the early 410s BC, he advocated an aggressive foreign policy, and was a prominent proponent of the Sicilian Expedition, but fled to Sparta after his political enemies brought charges of sacrilege against him. In Sparta, he served as a strategic adviser, proposing or supervising several major campaigns against Athens. In Sparta too, however, Alcibiades soon made powerful enemies and was forced to defect to Persia. There he served as an adviser to the satrap Tissaphernes until his Athenian political allies brought about his recall. He then served as an Athenian General (Strategos) for several years, but his enemies eventually succeeded in exiling him a second time.

The Sicilian Expedition was Alcibiades' idea, and scholars have argued that, had that expedition been under Alcibiades' command instead of Nicias', the expedition might not have met its eventual disastrous fate.[1] In the years that he served Sparta, Alcibiades played a significant role in Athens' undoing; the capture of Decelea and the revolts of several critical Athenian subjects occurred either at his suggestion or under his supervision. Once restored to his native city, however, he played a crucial role in a string of Athenian victories that eventually brought Sparta to seek a peace with Athens. He favored unconventional tactics, frequently winning cities over by treachery or negotiation rather than by siege.[2] Alcibiades' military and political talents frequently proved valuable to whichever state currently held his allegiance, but his capacity for making powerful enemies ensured that he never remained in one place for long; and, by the end of the war he had helped rekindle in the early 410s, his days of political relevance were a bygone memory.

wikipedia

he met his end when with his girlfriend huddled in a hut was surrounded by warriors sent to kill him and who did just that when he ran out of the hut armed and bent upon destruction of the enemy........ie they filled him full of arrows......

Not Linens 'n Things! Now where am I gonna go to by my linens 'n things?

*buy* I'm so upset, I can't even spell!

Jack---been a little rough.....but a lot of good things in between,,,i was just thinking of one of the best times that i ever had....and ate some beefallo---( fresh) cross between a cow and a buffalo--i ll save it for another time--it's a little long , but u will really like how this all came to be.

Behty----good to see you----i agree with you cnn comments---if you can ever get Amanpours religions warriors ---get it,it is great,,and about msnbc---they will never catch up,,, i agree with all that u said

War a little closer to home

Stories collected from down in the Missouri Ozarks

http://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/V1/ST010.html

Mr. Rhodes said that long before his regiment was sent to Louisiana, he was detailed one day with other soldiers to guard a supply train between Rolla and Lebanon, Missouri, and while passing over the road between Big and Little Piney Creeks, he and Bill Swearingin, a soldier mate, were walking together and they discovered an object lying in the grass a few yards to the right of the road, and on approaching we found that it was a dead man lying on his face with a bullet hole in the back of his head. The body was well dressed in black citizen’s clothes. We reported our find to Captain William Martindale, who was in command of us. Martindale reported it to the commanding officer at Waynesville and who said that he would send a detail of men there to bury the dead body. After we had been gone a few days, the guard with the train returned back over the same road and I and Swearingin stopped where we found the dead man to find out if he was buried, and discovered a trail where the dead man was dragged along through the grass and after following it 100 yards into the head of a little hollow, we found the same dead body with a rope around his neck. If a detail had been sent there to bury him, they or someone else had put the rope around his neck and dragged him off and left him like they would a dead brute.

For more of these stories
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/index.html

my grampa in law's book:

http://reviews.alibris.com/4466/2476050/reviews.htm

"Up Against The Wall Redneck Mothers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqz3BZd3cV8

Just kickin hippies asses and raisin hell

Yeah them were the days

Jack

Bethy-----about desperate crossings----i also agree---it is the best, and detailed accounting of the fist people from across the ocean,,,and will surprise some,,,i did have it taped but lost it--

In the nest few week there are going to be a lot of excellent shows, on all of my favorite stations,,,,,,the science channel is coming out with more and more,

Look at all these youngsters

Leon Russell Willie Nelson Waylon Jennings Doug Kershaw Jam

1974

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H6me1FSPb8

gary p. and jerry j.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4Ppc3jz3GE&feature=related

I can’t imagine the 3 amigos of the Auto Empire riding to D.C. in a car-caravan. I suspect they will just fly down on Northwest, still.
However, I’d love to see them ride down on Amtrak. Amtrak has indeed had a rider increase since gasoline prices soared last summer, but more publicity won’t hurt.
In 1981 after Reagan fired the PATCO workers, the UAW boycotted the airlines. For the giant Solidarity Day demonstration in Washington, UAW member either drove down in vans, rode buses, or like me, rode Amtrak.
We had the largest (18 passenger cars) train moving since the WWII troop carrier trains. It was something. Our Region 3 director was an old man but he survived it alright. The 3 amigos could too. Here’s how they could get there:
Route: 6030 Bus
Departs: Dearborn, MI (DER) Approximate Duration*: 1h 20m
Arrives: Toledo, OH (TOL)
Service or train number change in Toledo
Route: 30 Capitol Limited
Departs: Toledo, OH (TOL) Approximate Duration*: 13h 31m
Arrives: Washington - Union Station, DC (WAS)

Everlast - What Its Like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vWhdz5svvQ

slow down u know im a slow writer-----u guy's in he battle of the band-or sumpin?--what happened to C-Bob,,he get stuck in the mud, in his volkswagon.?

There used to be a time when this was just a song

For you darlin' I hope you have a good trip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aYv_9QfXw8

Alkibiades and the Athenian army died at Syracuse. 1 man came back to tell the tale. It doesn't get more decisive than that. We thought Viet Nam was bad.

Of course the scale was much smaller. Athens empire probably wasn't even a million people, and could have fit comfortably inside Iowa.

Chloe

Good one, thanks for the change

Jack

Xrep

Even the French have a worst tale then we do in Vietnam.

Jack

One more drink

Jack

Oops. Maybe Alkibiades didn't die at Syracuse. I was pretty sure that he was co-general with Nicias. They often picked co-generals in those days. Jim leading on odd numbered days and bob leading on even numbered days. Iow, a crazy system, that often led to disasters.

"If we are victorious in one more battle with the Romans, we shall be utterly ruined."
King Pyrrhus of Epirus

And so we get the term
Pyrrhic victory

Jack

Alci was co-general till athens sent a ship to tell him to report back to athens for trial.....(ostensibly for knocking the "protrusions" off of the Hermes)...........Alc gave them the slip and defected to Sparta thereby avoiding the debacle at sicily.......Nicias at the outset was dead set against the expedition but once it was voted underway he'd only give his consent if he could be uno de los dos generales......bad move..........like he was saying "Terrible Idea.......but if I'm there, it might work.....he also insisted, for his consent, that there be certain number of ships, men, provisions, etc.....which proved to be not enough.......the spartos sent one dude to set up the sicilian defense and the athenians met their match and then some........bad trip all around

Just passing through Jack. Enjoyed reading the conversation and hearing the good music you posted. Thanks.

See you all tomorrow.

night Chloe

I, chop river.

--robt graves

Chloe

I'm begining to believe we are deep in the cups so to speak

You take care see you in the morning.

Jack

night Solar. :)

and Jack...

The Sicilian Expedition was an Athenian expedition to Sicily from 415 BC to 413 BC, during the Peloponnesian War. The expedition was hampered from the outset by uncertainty in its purpose and command structure—political maneuvering in Athens swelled a lightweight force of twenty ships into a massive armada, and the expedition's primary proponent, Alcibiades, was recalled from command to stand trial before the fleet even reached Sicily—but still achieved early successes. Syracuse, the most powerful state on Sicily, responded exceptionally slowly to the Athenian threat, and as a result was almost completely invested before the arrival of a Spartan general, Gylippus, galvanized its inhabitants into action. From that point forward, however, as the Athenians ceded the initiative to their newly energized opponents, the tide of the conflict shifted. A massive reinforcing armada from Athens briefly gave the Athenians the upper hand once more, but a disastrous failed assault on a strategic high point and several crippling naval defeats damaged the besiegers' fighting capacity and morale, and the Athenians were eventually forced to attempt a desperate overland escape from the city they had hoped to conquer. That last measure, too, failed, and nearly the entire expedition surrendered or was destroyed in the Sicilian interior.

The impact of the defeat on Athens was immense. Two hundred ships and thousands of soldiers—an appreciable fraction of the city's total manpower—were lost in a single stroke. Athens' enemies on the mainland and in Persia were encouraged to take action, and rebellions broke out in the Aegean. The defeat proved to be the crucial turning point in the Peloponnesian War, though Athens struggled on for another decade. Thucydides observed that contemporary Greeks were shocked not that Athens eventually fell after the defeat, but rather that it fought on for as long as it did, so devastating were the losses suffered.

Sturg

I've always been suspicious of this history. It seems to be very negative toward Athens. At the time Athens was as close as you get to a democracy. Those telling the tales later were not very friendly toward democratic rule. In fact not until the begining of this country.

Jack
Beware of historians as they will tell lies and sell books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition

it led to the death of the fabled democracy in athens.......a ripping good yarn........

jack....in the case of the tudors that's definitely a facto-rama, ask simon de montfort......thukydides, however, I think is a horse of a different color......he had his feints, fallacies, fair-yarns and foibles but it's a nevertheless first hand account of the war.......

Bartender

the dice, lets role for the music.

Damn lost again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1lhzi4uU8o

Jack

Sturg ---it's incredible to me how many lives that were lost in that period-----not too long ago, the total of humans were not so many 12-15 thousand ,,we were almost extinct ..due to mother nature and famine,..enjoying your telling of it all,,,thanks

C-Bob, we're more refined than to take up a can of spray paint.

Colmes is no loss. He's the same as Hannity. Having his own FOX faux show proves that.

tt

Solar

There were a few more around then that.

I remember being amazed at the death total for one day between the Romans and one of the Germanic tribes it was a battle where the Germanic tribe suffered more than 50,000 deaths. It was almost like modern warfare, but in the 3rd century.

Jack

What can I say, this one is me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VO6bI-xrj8

The band at wood stock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OgZL3OLiVw

One more drink and I going to bed.

The wife said she is leaving town 5 am in the morning.

she is waking my ass up at 4 am so we can have coffee before she leaves.

Jack

Dexter

One of those "cost savings" short sighted items. Since people would never really use trains again because of freeways and planes, the tracks were sold to the freight rail companies.

Now AMTRAK has to give way to freight. In addition a lot of the spur lines were destroyed and you have bus links instead of rail.

This country really needs high speed rail put on "infrastructure for the future" list.

Bob Dylan - Maggie's Farm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s644Yce0E0

dylan, shelter from the storm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRwKudE2Qdw

Jamie

The problem is there is no solution for everybody. There are parts of this country where Fast rail needs to be developed. The eastern seaboard is a good example. The west coast also, as would along the great lakes. But for towns like Kansas City not so much. Sure we could have a rail connection to Denver but it is 8 hr. to fly an hour and a half. Also to Chicago 1 hr and 15 min. Some of us are too spread out for rail.

Jack

Jack, sounds like y'all have a good marriage.

tt

Here's something interesting. A friend of mine from High School, Peter Emerson (The guy who's the accomplished musician) said on Facebook that he just got back from a private guided West Wing tour of the White House.

Jamie, a lot of people here use Amtrak to travel from Holland to Chicago. Mainly because it's easier than driving. Also parking is expensive in downtown Chicago, not to mention how crazy traffic is.

tt

We have our days as any marriage does.
But I am very lucky. What is weird to me, I was 48 and very satisfied being single. I had never been married and at the time assumed I never would. Now I am 55 and very satisfied being married. I can't imagine it any other way.
Most days it feels like we've just met and also it feels like we've been together forever.

Well 4 am is damn early so I'm out of here

See you'ns in the morning.

Jack

I just wish train, plane, bus etc would figure out that they are in the transportation business rather than separate entities.

If a plane can't fly because of icing, then put people on a train rather than housing them in the terminal for three days.

The skies are getting too darn crowded and the whole security thing is a major hassle (unnecessary for the most part)

In the 1950s I could take a train from Los Angeles to Sacramento (central line) or San Francisco (coastal route) Now that same trip is a major chore. Bus from LA to Bakersfield then train to Fresno. The Coast route is slowly being restored to run all the way from San Diego up to Seattle but they are just putting back what was destroyed.

A Coast to Coast train a few times a week would make sense for most people on vacation or even links of it as commuter lines for major cities.

Night all

babybush pardoned 14.

Pardoned 14 what?

Jack

Solar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3HTdndZec

Jack

From AP : "On the latest pardon list were:

—Leslie Owen Collier of Charleston, Mo. She was convicted for unauthorized use of a pesticide and violating the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

—Milton Kirk Cordes of Rapid City, S.D. Cordes was convicted of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, which prohibits importation into the country of wildlife taken in violation of conservation laws.

—Richard Micheal Culpepper of Mahomet, Ill., who was convicted of making false statements to the federal government.

—Brenda Jean Dolenz-Helmer of Fort Worth, Texas, for reporting or helping cover up a crime.

—Andrew Foster Harley of Falls Church, Va. Harley was convicted of wrongful use and distribution of marijuana and cocaine.

—Obie Gene Helton of Rossville, Ga., whose offense was unauthorized acquisition of food stamps.

—Carey C. Hice Sr. of Travelers Rest, S.C., who was convicted of income tax evasion.

—Geneva Yvonne Hogg of Jacksonville, Fla., convicted of bank embezzlement.

—William Hoyle McCright Jr. of Midland, Texas, who was sentenced for making false entries, books, reports or statements to a bank.

—Paul Julian McCurdy of Sulphur, Okla., who was sentenced for misapplication of bank funds.

—Robert Earl Mohon Jr. of Grant, Ala., who was convicted of conspiracy to distribute marijuana.

—Ronald Alan Mohrhoff of Los Angeles, who was convicted for unlawful use of a telephone in a narcotics felony.

—Daniel Figh Pue III of Conroe, Texas, convicted of illegal treatment, storage and disposal of a hazardous waste without a permit.

—Orion Lynn Vick of White Hall, Ark., who was convicted of aiding and abetting the theft of government property."

2 from northern states, 1 from CA, 11 from the South.

Dumping hazardous waste in TX. Well that puts nutrition in the water, right ? Mercury is a vegetable, right ? Snark, snark.

Also, several bank cases. Prolly all close pals with bro neill. ( : >D)<

"I just wish train, plane, bus etc would figure out that they are in the transportation business rather than separate entities"

No argument on that one

Jack

Gotta catch an early flight to Vancouver, so I'd better go squash the mattress. Sweet dreams, all.

xrep

Business as usual for the end of a presidency. Let me know when cheney or rummy get a pardon.

Although I think they got one in when the democrats passed the spying legislation last fall.

Jack

Emmylou Harris and Johnny Cash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cku9RjhiliA

As Cbob/anon said " its addictive"

night all

Jack

Jack, your story is very interesting.

tt

That PARDON's list is SO Republican!

tt

Champ

Hey, Your email keeps being returned. If your out there , god damn it email me.

Jack

I'm not a joni Mitchell fan but this song is beautiful

Johnny Cash & Joni Mitchell - The Long Black Veil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALSKcWcVEk

" and we know well, Ole' Alcibiades, ............ he always went for the jugular."
George C. Scott as Patton

I would add that the Athenian campaign to Sicily bankrupted them as well.

TT - I was amazed about that google search, given the passion President Dither engendered.
I'm sure "Impeach Bush" graffitti would yield far different results.

WiskyJ -
It's called the " safety valve " theory in history. Populations increase, if the excess population can't be exported bad things happen. In the case of the Chinese of today ........ there is something like 25 million extra Chinese men entering young adulthood . They will never be able to marry, simply because there aren't enough women. That's the population's of Texas and Colorado wandering around looking for a date.
America has acted as that valve for most of it's existence for Europe, and now for countries to the South.

Same story with some of the northern tribes pressing down on Rome. Or the Comanche, and Ute spilling south from the Shoshone home lands.

Good luck if Grandma lives off the Amtrak routes and you have to fly out of LGA this week:

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/travel/2008/11/24/2008-11-24_flights_to_nowhere_fliers_pan_laguardia_.html

RE;
The store closing list -

Piercing Pagoda closing all stores.
This country actually had a chain of stores that poked holes in people's skin as a business model.

60 Eddie Bauer stores to be closed.
Their business model was predicated on the idea that kaki is fashionable.

Sharper Image Closing All Stores
Their business model was based on the idea an electric stove pipe could remove cigarette smoke from the air, and replace it with positive ions.

Special Report: The Mining of the West
Craters so huge they can be seen from space. Thousands of miles of rivers and streams polluted by acidic runoff. Miners can pay the government no more than $5 an acre for the chance to make a fortune or go bust -- and stick taxpayers with millions of dollars in cleanup costs. It is the legacy of an 1872 federal law that still allows miners to take precious metals from public land for next to nothing.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/mining/