Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Gird your loins. It's like cleaning Augean Stables.

won't work this time, craig, cause we out-source everything. can't put the unemployed back to work if the weapons and materiel will be made by cheap labor and no regs beyond the border.

Good morning

and if it takes a war to keep us economically sound, why are we in the mess were in now since we have been at war on two fronts for the last 5+ years?

given your hypothothesis, had we not sent tens of thousands to iraq and afgan'n, we would really be in deep do do.

deep-er do do.... or is that a redundancy like being more pregnant?

fascinating article in ny times mag re reprogramming jihadists
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/magazine/09jihadis-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin

craig, the "do" in your 4th paragraph should be "to"

and, btw, did you notice that last night oldsea brought up the bug-a-boo about us being lab rats. better breakout the tranquilizers again, the little boogers are getting restless.

Thank you to our Veterans for their service to our Country.

Thank you for their sacrifice for our continued safety and freedom’s

Thank a Vet today !!

just like old Herc to "clean up the stables" by polluting the rivers and streams........I hope he issued gas masks to all the cats down stream.........lol

Craig - Good post..

But ask a few more Questions?
What was the tax approach during this period.

youre welcome Ping......it was the least I could do.....

Thank YOU Sturgeone!!!!

Good morning all and thank you Sturge and all other Vets for your sacrifices!

O'Reilly is so incredibly self-absorbed and condescendingly arrogant. BTW, he's on Fox.

well......for me, it was more a pain in the butt than a sacrifice, but a big thank you to all the peoples who actually did sacrifice life and limb and sometimes sanity in our service..........

Don't know if anyone remembers but am still working on getting the 94th Infantry Division recognized as a liberating unit. It is now at Congressional Research, sadly it is taking too much time. I would like my father and his comrades to see that day.

You're too humble Sturge.

Off for my Remicade. You all have a peaceful morning.

Thank you Flatus !!!

my military career left me with much to be humble about......

Craig, one thing to remember is that the New Deal was created to save capitalism and social order. Social programs have always been created with an eye on stability and safety. Wasn't FDR a banker during part of his career? I googled but couldn't find anything...

Ping is it Veteran's day?

Obama Plans War With Iran?
http://savagepolitics.com/obama-plans-war-with-iran/news

Yeah it's Veteran's Day. Armistice day, too. Learn your history. What are you, some sort of socialist living in Belgium or something?

Were you in Vietnam Sturge?

Well, let me start the day by saying that on MSNBC I LOVE David Gregory and Chuck Todd. I like any segment when Craig or Harold Ford appear. I would love to see both of them have an hour talk show.

For the most part, I like the Scarborough show in the morning. Usually switch back and forth between that and C-Span. For some reason I haven't been able to get back into Imus. I do love the fact that he promotes country music, so I check to see if he's having anyone I like on the show.

CNN is okay as long as I don't have to listen to Wolf Blitzer.

Interesting thread from last night. Hysterical to see Brian suddenly take the "high road" after constantly bashing Craig for months.

never even close........Im tellin' ya, compared to me Beetle Bailey appears more like Dwight Eisenhower........I fall more into the GW's type of military service..........ie, not so much.......

Well, just the same, thank you,

Hey - Was this also the repeal of Prohibition ended in this period..

What impact did the flow of a legal drink have on the recovery?

I joined....... did two years active and saw memphis and E.City NC.....keeping our coasts safe and sound

semper paratus was our guide.......

most of my buddies saw the jungle.....it's them me hat's off to.................

Morning Patsi, got your fudge made and am tin the middle of tempering the chocolate.

Bush and Obama have good meetings

Bush is handling the transition very well

Off to the evil capitilistic world!!

Thanks again to all the Vets for making it possible...

There is, Craig; green jobs. Solve the energy and environmental problems of our nation and the world. It's gonna require math & science, but that's just the sacrafice we're gonna have to make.

Energy problems? Magically, the gas price in Des Moines has gone down to $1.77/gal. Still hovering around $2/gal in my area of TX. I guess they want us to spend money in the stores so the retailers don't all go belly up this Christmas.

Thank you to all the veterans. My great-uncle was a gunner's mate on a merchant marine ship. He took that assignment because he heard a rumor that they got fed well & when he was back at home, he went hungry a lot. No, we can whine all we want, but most of us in this country still have much it better than our grandparents' generation...especially the folks at AIG.

November 11, 2008. Forty years ago today I got married in the campus chapel....and even though we've been divorced for three decades, my ex and I often email or phone each other on this "momentous" anniversary. After all, we ended up with two of the greatest children on earth, and now the grandest granddaughter.

Iraq & Afghanistan are regional conflicts not near the scale of WWII with the entire European Continent, North Africa, Islands all across the Pacific and China involved.

I live on the coast, appreciate that. We have an old WWII bunker still on our south beach. Hear tales from the seniors about citizens taking on night shore watches during WWII. Did they do that down in your parts too Sturge?

My father (Army Infantry), step-father (Army Artillery) and father in law (Navy Pacific) all fought in WWII. They are all gone now but I salute them and all the other vererans who have served this country.

yep, me old man had that gig on the beach here before he got drafted......also as he was a navy yard welder, I seem to remember his telling (years later) something about his helping to dismantle a german sub they got here somehow.......

You were shown the door one week ago today.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineusa/2008/nov/11/sarah-palin

And now she's blaming...us, I guess. Anybody still blog from their 'rents basement?

"those bloggers in their parents' basement just talkin' garbage".

5 of my uncles made the big show......3 in the south pacific, (2 army and 1 marines), and 2 in Europe.....my dad, drafted late, never left the states.....

"AIG is coming to the government claiming to be in critical condition and asking to be placed under intensive care, but they are still going out and partying and acting as healthy as ever..."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2008/11/11/20081111biz-aigresort1111.html

It's called a tele-conference, people. I know they say their part was a tiny $23k, but c'mon.

Holy shit, dismantled one? I only hear stories of a few being sighted. Wonder how well people would put up with black outs now?

All of my paternal grandparents' brothers served in WWII. My grandfather tried to enlist, but he was 4F...actually had a metal plate behind his ear from getting stepped on by a horse when he was a kid. He stayed home and built roads/WPA.

Like Blue suggested: invest in green technology and the jobs it creates.

And repair/restore our infrastructure. That would employ many, benefit many, and have a multiplier effect on the economy.

Happy Veteran's Day and thank you to all who served.

90 years since the Great War.

One of the great-uncles was at Guadalcanal. Kind of took to the drink for awhile, but pulled himself out & always worked. What's the difference then & Viet Nam and beyond? Jobs? Social structure? Someone, ping, I think asked a good question: What about the tax policy?

One of my uncles was 4F too. He didn't take it as well as your grandfather. All the other 4 boys had enlisted, even worse his younger brother signed up with the Navy at 16. He was the only boy left in town, Marked him the rest of his life. He was so terribly ashamed he started a fine, long drinking career.

It is hard for me to comprehend the fervor and patriotism of that time.

my brothers were in the air force and marines; but my dad was the real hero. he worked in the shipyards during wwII and later died of asbestiosis because of it.

patd- You're right, he was the hero. They really were the greatest generation.

patd.........my old man dodged the asbestos deal....after 6 yrs as a shipyard welder (with time out for 2 yrs in the service), he lost a leg after a welding accident and was transferred to personnel.......

yep......they all sacrificed life and limb.......

Excellent Video for Veterans Day: A Pittance of Time. I used the story behind it for my blog today.

http://jdurward.blogspot.com/

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172131

I have been watching some National Geographic specials on WW 1 ... such sad stories...

I got Veteran's Day mixed up with Labor Day. Today is national holiday in Belgium thus I am home.

a feller I knew quite well in denver told me about his uncle dick who took part in D-day......said he came home was ok for awhile and then one day he put his helmet on and sat in a rocking chair in his room the rest of his life rocking and laughing at something.......

Craig,

Your column fits right in with the premise behind "Hot, Flat, and Crowded"

http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/bookshelf/hot-flat-and-crowded

Our financial well being is to be found in correcting the environmental problems of the world. Instead of manufacturing the weapons of war, we become the engine for all the "green" innovations.

You are right that the economy didn't correct in the Great Depression until the massive war time manufacturing pulled us out, but we had the advantage that we were one of the few nations that didn't have fighting on our soil and had all the resources necessary to help repair others afterwards.

What the WPA did was put people to work. Human beings simply don't do well without a purpose. The anger that existed at the time could have taken the US down the road to anarchy. The alphabet soup that FDR created brought stability if not wealth.

I like Veterans Day much better when it's a holiday for old men, not young men.

Today's Thread on The BackChannel Blog

Veteran’s Day, by dnd

http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/

After seeing the "lab rats" remark above I had to go back and see what everyone was up to last night. Just to put a period on my talk about MSNBC, I'll say that I like the new lineup of

1600
Matthews
Olbermann
Maddow

Morning JOe is iffy. When it's good it's very good but when the host is crabby everybody gets whiney. I actually like it more than Imus except for the loss of the music that he used to have.

I would like to see that panel show with different issues covered depending on the day of the week. It could lead off into 1600 and then the whole schedule repeated instead of the documentaries. That would take care of the east coast/west coast time differences.

Just my ideas

LardassLiberal- hear, hear.

mornin' all.

What Lardass said is the best comment on Veteran's day I've ever seen or heard.

interesting post, Craig....dyslexia...we are coming off of two wars and have sunk into a depression. What is in a name? We are in a the greatest repression of the new age. And did Bin Laden win? Maybe he has effectively knocked down the financial system around the world along with a lot of freedoms.

Craig your post isn't exactly right, it's not wrong but is an over simplification of the effects of the New Deal. Millions of Americans were saved from destitution by FDR's alphabet soup of work programs. The nation's mood was also uplifted by the fact that people felt there was someone in the White House who people felt was looking out for them, preventing what could have a full scale tearing down of our form of government. And many parts of rural America were electrified freeing great swaths of this country from grinding drudgery. Saying the New Deal didn't end the Great Depression is too simple an analysis. Without the public works of the New Deal America could not have geared up as it did to fight the war and the war could have gone on for many more years than it did.

My dad and all 3 of my uncles served in WWII and all survived it - one is still alive. Happy Veteran's day, Oz.

Here is a good article to start analyzing spending and taxes during the Great Depression

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/understanding-f.html

It is written from the "spend more, tax less" standpoint but names the major players, provides a few links, and at least gives you a starting point for analysis of possible solutions.

If you google

Income taxes during great depression

It brings up a host of good material.

Happy Vets Day....all. I gave all of my office staff the day off...I'm here all alone....funny thing though....I'm the only vet....how'd this happen???...:)

My dad was a marine in Korea. my grandfather a marine in China in the 20's. My grandfather tried to reenlist in the marines in WWII but was told that they could make marines in 8 weeks and that shipfitters took a year. He spent the entire war making submarines and minesweepers in Charleston.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/arnold-to-the-rescue.html#comment-171922

LOL. Oh, god, I think I just pissed myself. Champ, for $.25 and 2 boxtops, you too, can join the Phil Berg fan club.

1934:
The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.

1935:
Economic recovery continues: the GNP grows another 8.1 percent, and unemployment falls to 20.1 percent.

1936:
Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent; unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.

1937:
GNP rises 5.0 percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.

TIMELINES OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

Good web bio on FDR from the FDR Library

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/fdrbio.html

I think the millions and millions of people who were put to work by the New Deal would hardly consider that a band aid, not to mention the millions who were saved from foreclosure, or the millions who were saved from being wiped out by Roosevelt's bank holiday and efforts to support the banking system.

And BTW the only reason the war was able to put the final nail in the coffin of the Great Depression is because Roosevelt pushed past his fears of deficit spending and let the flood gates of govt spending open full wide.

Jamie check your email, YHM!

FDR's attempt to solve the Great Depression was called the New Deal. Unfortunately, the Depression was never solved. Many historians believe it was the start of World War II, resulting in massive military contracts to industries, that brought us out of the depression and increased employment. Perhaps the greatest accomplishment of the New Deal was to ease the economic hardship faced by many during the Great Depression. While not being able to end the Depression, the New Deal did preserve the people’s confidence in America’s institutions and government. The relief measures of the New Deal were considered a success. Not everyone supported the New Deal. As a formula for economic recovery, the New Deal failed. Many businessmen and financiers did not support the economic measures of the New Deal. With the recession of 1937, many business leaders and politicians claimed that FDR’s policies were a failure and the attempt to maintain prosperity during peacetime was not successful at all. Many Americans however in both rural and urban areas of the nation did support the efforts of the New Deal. FDR’s Fireside Chats provided confidence and reassurance to many. Rural electrification, Social Security, insurance of bank accounts, protection for labor unions, and federal controls over the economy gave many a sense of security in the future and in the government. While there were some radical movements during the Great Depression, the faith Americans had in their system of government did not falter. Many, however, were opposed to the growth of the federal government and the corresponding cost to maintain those new governmental agencies. From FDR’s New Deal to the present, the federal government has continued to grow, assume an active role in the daily lives of citizens, and to cost more in the form of taxes, and to spend more on domestic and foreign affairs. Many politicians, economists, and students of government did not favor such increases.

ET

This day was the end of WW I as Armistice Day (Eleventh Hour of the Eleventh Day of the Eleventh Month). Is that why it's a holiday in Belgium?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_Day

Two minutes of silence at 11:00 AM

I learned a long time ago---that when someone asked me for a favor u have two choices---yes---and---no it is that simple,,,i think about what is asked, if no one is hurt,,how will it affect me,, then having done all of this i can decide to do what is asked----if it is a reasonable request i always say yes,,,,

When Craig and jamie asked for the opinions for msnbc i did not see any harm in it, so started to give my 2 cents worth,,,,when i signed up for this blog, i knew that there was going to be some manipulation of it---thru the comment section, and there for of my head---to this day i have not found it intrusive,,,some of the time i think that he starts a new thread just to shut off the bs that occurs, and most of the time in order to get the stale conversation in a new direction,,,,it works,,,i think all the cable news (95% or more) suck,,,i found cnn lacking in worthy news also---they just did not go overboard like msnbc,,,so have most newspapers,,,now im the one taking this too far, so i don't feel that i like a lab rat, or used or ass kisser----some one just asked me for an opinion, and i gave one that is all.....

jamie, from Wiki:

"Veterans Day is an annual American holiday honoring military veterans. Both a federal holiday and a state holiday in all states, it is usually observed on November 11. However, if it occurs on a Sunday then the following Monday is designated for holiday leave, and if it occurs Saturday then either Saturday or Friday may be so designated.[1] It is also celebrated as Armistice Day or Remembrance Day in other parts of the world, falling on November 11, the anniversary of the signing of the Armistice that ended World War I. (Major hostilities of World War I were formally ended at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918 with the German signing of the Armistice.)"

Veterans Day began here in th' US as Armistice Day, then later morphed into Veterans Day.

But you knew that.

Oops, the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day

I learned a long time ago---that when someone asked me for a favor u have two choices---yes---and---no it is that simple,,,i think about what is asked, if no one is hurt,,how will it affect me,, then having done all of this i can decide to do what is asked----if it is a reasonable request i always say yes,,,,

When Craig and jamie asked for the opinions for msnbc i did not see any harm in it, so started to give my 2 cents worth,,,,when i signed up for this blog, i knew that there was going to be some manipulation of it---thru the comment section, and there for of my head---to this day i have not found it intrusive,,,some of the time i think that he starts a new thread just to shut off the bs that occurs, and most of the time in order to get the stale conversation in a new direction,,,,it works,,,i think all the cable news (95% or more) suck,,,i found cnn lacking in worthy news also---they just did not go overboard like msnbc,,,so have most newspapers,,,now im the one taking this too far, so i don't feel that i like a lab rat, or used or ass kisser----some one just asked me for an opinion, and i gave one that is all.....

Solar, most of us here have given our opinions about MSNBC - generally negative as will happen at a blog - but at times it goes overboard and when it does Craig asks us to dial it back, MSNBC being one of his employers. Apparently someone over there reads this blog and is a bit too thin skinned to realize that for the most part the criticism here is from people who actually watch the network and offer opinions about how it can be improved. As also happens in blogland, those criticisms tend to be more pointed and snide than polite conversation typically tolerates. All I can say is that I'm glad to see MSNBC making headway against Fox And CNN - I prefer its commentary based political content from both the right and left to either of those networks, which are way to far right or issue focused (e.g. Lou Dobbs) for my liking.

for some factual info on how the war economy finally ended the Great Depression (plus a ton of other economics history):

L. Engerman, Stanley; Gallman, Robert E.. The Cambridge Economic History of the United States. (Volume 3, The Twentieth Century)

In Chap.5, "The Great Depression," the book details how there was some recovery after 1933 (mostly due to gold inflows from an unstable Europe, not the New Deal) but another collapse in 1937 that lasted until the war economy began gearing up in 1939.

A shout out to my much older brother (~~~~~~~~~~~~~) who served in Vietnam but has never used his service to further his opinions or claim greater patriotism.

I don't think Craig asked for it. I just threw it out as something to talk about instead of Palin's shoes. My favorite quote about complying with requests is long but worth reading. It is from Robert Heinlein in "Time Enough for Love"

Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect.
But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants "just a few minutes of your time, please — this won't take long."

Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time — and squawk for more!
So learn to say No — and to be rude about it when necessary.

Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you.

(This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don't do it because it is "expected" of you.)

just to be clear i'm not saying the New Deal didn't do good things -- just not as much as widely believed for the macroeconomics of the times

at least we wear more than a bath towel . . .

"Sarah Palin lashed out as bloggers in a Fox interview, calling them "kids in pajamas sitting in the basement of their parents’ homes".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-bergthold/palin-calls-bloggers-kids_b_142872.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122636726473415991.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Change we can believe in??????????????...looks like Obama plans on continuing the Shrub policy on torture.

Here's Krugman's take on it - probably more authoritative, and certainly more informed, than any of ours.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/opinion/10krugman.html

Wearing my pea coat today ---it is really for real cold weather but in honor of vet day i will wear it---it is still in like new conditions,,,but has been around since 1970---it is an original Navy pea coat,,,and some times i am offered $ for it--no way,,,,happy vets day to all

"Sarah Palin lashed out as bloggers in a Fox interview, calling them "kids in pajamas sitting in the basement of their parents’ homes".

She must have a magic looking glass like Ms Nancy on Romper Room

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172191

solar, i wasn't asking for opinions about msnbc. thought i explained myself here: http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/arnold-to-the-rescue.html#comment-172101

manipulation? you must be kidding. i don't think Machiavelli his own self could ever manipulate this unruly crowd

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172203

lol

Craig, it's called cat herding.

One proud lab rat
Jack

I hope that consumers as well as the government evaluates what kind of an economy we want. I am hoping for a little less fashion and planned obsolescence and a little more common sense.

HEHEH. Popcorn, please - light on the butter and salt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/opinion/11brooks.html

KGC

Our economy runs on the fact that many of us have more money then we have brains. We need those people so the rest of us can sell products and services. other wise we would all be under the bridge with our card board signs covered with catchy slogans.

Jack

"We need those people so the rest of us can sell products and services. other wise we would all be under the bridge with our card board signs covered with catchy slogans."

I am hoping we are all retrainable and can make some basic adjustments. There can still be stuff for everyone --I'd just like to see more people looks for quality instead of style...or at least both.

What in the world is Sarah Palin talking about? I have not read one bad thing said about her by any bloggers here!

Wikiquote has a huge page of Heinlein quotes. Good reading

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172209

Corey, you mean today? (Obviously)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172211

Pogo

The last 30 min? Maybe?

well it's been fun taking a break, but back to book work now -- you guys are a welcome diversion

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/opinion/11herbert.html

Could I have a motion awarding Bob Herbert the Best OpEd piece of the day? And a Second? All in favor... the ayes have it.

Craig, if you need any help, feel free to plagiarize any of my responses to Gordo - apparently champ thinks there are plenty of words to spare (and don't feel any need to attribute them to the source).

Today's WIKI quote could apply to the economy or the new Presidency. Leave it to a lady to be pithy and to the point:

These are times in which a genius would wish to live. It is not in the still calm of life, or in the repose of a pacific station, that great characters are formed. The habits of a vigorous mind are formed in contending with difficulties. Great necessities call out great virtues.

Abigail Adams

HEHEH. Popcorn, please - light on the butter and salt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/11/internal-gop-fight-over-n_n_142953.html

KGC

Style has taken over the world.

I deal with it everyday as I pick things like fixtures and tile. It is now as easy to look the dreaded "dated" with your choice of bathroom tile as it is wearing last years sweater.
I love the choices I have now but it means I can't string a project out while I pick up odd jobs. Come back to it 6 months later and they've changed the style. I have to rethink the whole project.

Jack

The recession of 1937 was caused by Roosevelt's fear of deficit spending and his cutting back of govt. works projects.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172193

Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an unbalanced budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation plunges into another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0 percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

Pogo, I never did understand the anger/hatred or whatever you wanna call it over Palin. The election's over now. Time to move on and focus on what lies ahead. Anyway, KGC, my sister and I had that same discussion while at the mall last week. She said, "Going to the mall now means checking to see which stores I have coupons for." I do the same thing. Mostly only buy things that are on sale and shop at stores that I have coupons for which will give me extra discounts on their sale items. My sister also said that she would rather not buy brand name clothing and just shop some place that was cheaper like Target.

We are witnessing the collapse of the “social democracy” consensus of the industrialized/post industrial nations established between 1920 and 1945; the “New Deal” and British Popular Radicalism included. The economic fallacy is that nation states can borrow unlimited amounts of money from God know where and never pay it back. Government bonds can be rolled over indefinitely and fiat currency can always be traded for the goods of the earth. Government can therefore regulate markets (why is there still a drug trade larger than the global auto industry?) and subsidize everything and everyone. These ignorant ideas lead to our housing bubble (no nation can loan money to poor people to buy good houses they cannot afford) and a ten trillion dollar public debt (2.5 trillion owed to Japan and China). Pumping ever greater amounts of valueless currency into the system to produce “liquidity” is foolish because the problem is insurmountable debt not liquidity; with total household debt in the USA at 97% of GNP/GDP to whom will the liquid lenders loan? Not to people who owe more on their home then it is worth. A crash is inevitable to allow the insolvent debtors to go broke and start with a fresh slate.

Back to work

Jack

"with total household debt in the USA at 97% of GNP/GDP to whom will the liquid lenders loan?"

Sounds like an opportunity for those with good credit.

The wife ask me this morning if she sould quit putting money into her 401K, I told her no, this is the time to increase it. the time to stop was last year.

Jack

Crude drops below $59.00.....I just filled up my fat F150
for $41.00...it's $1.79/gal here...just wish diesel would follow.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172223

Th' missus & I have had that discussion as well Jack. Hard to know where we are in this cycle, so it's hard to decide what to do. Best advice I've heard is make your decision based on your goals, not your panic.

Pogo,
I kind of like a bit of panic.....it creates a huge amount of opportunity for those with a strong constitution and a little bit of pragmatism

Craig-----got it---perhaps i should have said guide the conversation,or something like it----this unruly crowd ,,is what makes it worth while for me---

Jax

$1.63 here in Kansas City

I filled up the car for less than 20 bucks. All of us pumping gas were smiling real big. This will be a way bigger stimulus package than anything congress will do. that gives me $4o bucks a week to just blow on useless stuff, like food.

Jack

HEHEH. Popcorn, please, heavy on the butter and salt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11repubs.html?hp

This is just too good for words. I would pray if I believed it would do any good that the repugs listen to Gingrich - hell, make him the party chair - more than one astute political observer places the blame for the collapse of the permanent republican congressional majority envisioned by Rove squarely in Gingrich's lap. I don't know if they're right, but I'd love to test that theory today.

Jack,
I'm with you....I'm loving the retail deals out there now. I've made a personal decision not to participate in the coming recession...Xmas looks good for the family this year....just bought the inlaws tickets to fly in from Providence for the Holidays $300.00 each r/t....not bad

jax, panic's pretty easy to find these days.

Pogo,
it is, I just keep refusing to let the negativity of the media and....yes blogs.... get me down. I put in a few extra hours a week at work and the biz keeps growing...:)

Goopers are not rationale at the moment. They are seeing Newt as a successful Republican instead of the architect of the current failure.

The moderates need to speak up and push the extremists to another party --they can join the Bigot Buchanan.

Yes, kc, and I hope they continue to struggle in their delusions. There will be a struggle for power in that party, and I hope the party loses as a result of that struggle.

Armistice Day: Annual Commemorations in Ieper (Ypres)

11th November is a public holiday in Belgium. To mark the anniversary of Armistice Day, 11 November 1918, commemorative events are held in Ieper (Ypres).

11 nov. wapenstilstand Which means the stopping the use of weapons.

Goopers are not rationale at the moment.

Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker | November 11, 2008 11:36 AM

Uhhh, and this is something new?

All of this confusion and disarray is swelling the ranks of the independents, as i many times have said,,,my only hope is that they are in great numbers,,,this will push the extreme left and the extreme right to were they are more visible?? then the country will be run from the center as it should be-----a little ism of both social and capital ---as i keep saying ---yeah yeah i know im dreaming. :-)

brain
you seem to think the government the
answer to everything' obviously you've have not
had to deal with bureaucrats at any level '
most wouldn't make it one day in the private sector

mqw, it's also not correct that the government is not the answer to ANYTHING which is what the right wing so often spews...

Yes mqw I'm a firm believer in Keynesian economics. We've elevated the libertarian philosophy of Friedman as if were words handed down on Mt. Sinai and look where that's got us. Countries that pursued aggressive deficit spending during the Great Depression recovered much more quickly than the US did, and the success of the deficit spending during the war proves the point that Keynes was right.

Now mqw if you want to have a real conversation on this subject I'm glad to, but if all you're going to do is spout GOP talking points, don't bother wasting both our time.

As it is vet day,,i think that all should serve in some way,,,there would be a new way of thinking---i really respect the politicians that have a loved one serving---regardless of party---the military would help a lot of young people grow up (emotionally ) give the gender gap a little more help,,,seeing a woman in iraq tells me and a lot of people that they can and will rise to any given situation----really like T. Duckworth,,,,and lastly the washington critters would be less apt to start a war knowing that their own are going to die for their decisions.

On todays thread i hope that the ones that have a little more $ than needed, that they put in a little meat in the soup if someone knocks on your door ( ok jax) just like they did in the great depression!

Solar, yep, the republican meme is that we are a center-right country - spluttered constantly and based on nothing more than their own opinion. Luckily, in a world of gray, goopers see only black and white. The power struggle in the GOP is reflective of that - attributing the loss to a) rejection of all things Bush or b) failure to adhere to conservative values or other very discrete issues. Voter preference for the Obama's proposed approach to dealing with the complex problems of the economy, taxes and Iraq don't even seem to be part of the dialog. I hope they continue to focus on their philsophical shortcomings and continue to push low taxes for the rich and trickle down economics instead of trying to figure out how to fix the real world problems that exist (as a result of Bushanomics at least in part) and selling their solution to the voters and middle class taxpayers. I'd like to see a stronger Dem congress in '10.

lunch

This concept that going to war ends economic hard times is just overly simplistic. It's the deficit spending during war time that leads to economic recovery. The problem with Bush's deficit spending is the benefits of it were concentrated in too few hands. You also need responsible tax policy to back up aggressive deficit spending. The great benefit of the current economic collapse is that finally Friedman will be tossed onto the ash heap of history, long overdue!

Pogo---as usual i agree,,,,and i also agree with something that u said a while back on another thread----the more Dems in the congress and senate the better to get things on the right road again----and i like that also cos it will show them for what they are----good or bad for the country---Obama and his staff better start right friggin now, not when makes gets the pledge for potus???

EuroTom

Glad to hear you are a fan of Tom Ammiano's. He is my favorite politician and should have been elected mayor of SF. Ammiano was treated very unfairly by the media.

Ammiano is the architect of SF's health care initiative. The restaurant association has been very rude to him -including refusing service.

I was wondering the other day how Shrub must feel being a complete and total failure.

Seeing him this morning on the Intrepid - he is delusional. He thinks history will vindicate him.

Fact Check------thank u for your 9:44 post

Pat J.-------------thank u for your 11:07 post

brain has come up with a grand solution. the economy
will be running like a swiss clock'a model of efficiency
all we have to do is get those people down at the
DMV and put them in charge';all our problems are over

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172250

Sorry my mistake for thinking you are capable of intelligent conversation. I won't make that mistake again, all you can do is spew talking points. As usual you fail to impress.

For South, a Waning Hold on Politics

What may have ended on Election Day, though, is the centrality of the South to national politics. By voting so emphatically for Senator John McCain over Mr. Obama — supporting him in some areas in even greater numbers than they did President Bush — voters from Texas to South Carolina and Kentucky may have marginalized their region for some time to come, political experts say.

The region’s absence from Mr. Obama’s winning formula means it “is becoming distinctly less important,” said Wayne Parent, a political scientist at Louisiana State University. “The South has moved from being the center of the political universe to being an outside player in presidential politics.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp

SWEET!

Salon article on the damage done to the environment by the Bush controlled EPA

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/11/11/epa/?source=newsletter

One of the most damaging legacies of Ronald Reagan (and there are many to choose from) is the notion that Government is an enemy of the people and should not take progressive steps to protect the citizenry.

It astounds me...

You all can be lab rats if you want, but I'm going for spoiled rotten prime fancy

http://sfr.nocensmundus.net/gallery2/d/8788-3/Pixie5.jpg

Dog's Eye -

I live just outside of the Oort Cloud.

Viv -

Thanks for that Sleeping Budda news.

Champ-

"Does anyone know where the love of God goes, when the waves turn the minutes to hours ?"

Craig -

CNN sucks too.

Craig -

70,000 words by Dec. 1st ?

Try and work in Valivostok.

Centre-right, centre-right, centre-right....Do they think if they repeat it enough,God will hear their prayer and make it so? I feel like using it as Pee-Wee's word of the day and every time I hear it. I'll scream real loud.

ET

The Battle of Ypres is commemorated in what is probably the most famous poem to come out of WW I
written by Lt. Col John McCrae, MD

In Flanders Field

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/flanders.htm

And the poem by Carl Sandburg about all of the dead in all of the battles:

Grass

Pile the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo.
Shovel them under and let me work -
I am the grass; I cover all.

And pile them high at Gettysburg
And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun.
Shovel them under and let me work.

Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?
Where are we now?

I am the grass.
Let me work.

The History channel has been running 30 min. programs from Lucasfilms Lmt. in their first hour this fall.

This morning they ran one on Franz Kafka. When he finally met a girl he liked, he wrote her a proposal of marriage letter. It was a 25 pages long listing all the reasons she shouldn't marry him, only at the end did he ask her to marry him. When she replied yes, he wrote back, and urged her to re-read page 7 just to be sure.

mqw, surely you aren't that stupid - DMV is run by STATE government; Obama will be presiding over FEDERAL programs. But seriously, taking your smart-ass crack at Brian and applying it in the appropriate arena, let's try and get those folks who run Medicare to administer things - they do it at least as well as insurance companies, and at less than 1/4 the cost.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/11/beware-the-great-depression-an.html#comment-172257

Rosie,

The bright side: No more Mavericks

Salon article on the damage done to the environment by the Bush controlled EPA
http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/11/11/epa/?source=newsletter"

Good piece, Jamie -- thanks for the link.

My father in France, late summer of 1944 -

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2126/picture171qx2.png

jamie, sez who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_%28roller_coaster%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Maverick_episodes

I just had lunch with a business associate who've I've known for many years. He told me a story that just shows how upside down everything is. This guy is very wealthy and married to the same woman for 35 years. She was able to raise their children and never had to work outside the home. A few years ago they noticed that she would not qualify for social security. he decided to make her the CFO of a small professional services company he used in his personal consulting.
He paid her a total of $5700.00 over 4 years. (16 qtrs)
This allowed her to qualify for social security. She just
retired at 62 and received her first check $518.00/month. She paid in a total of $5700.00 in her lifetime and will take out over $6000.00/yr for the rest of her life.......laughs.....what a return on investment.!!!!!and we want the gov't to run more programs???????

Pogo---it looks like a day in full agreement with u----i was just getting to enjoy one of brians conversation( would like to see more of him in this way ) until mqw threw that junk out there brians response was right on,,,also about the folks at medicare, and the social security should be added,,,,gov,dept aren't run efficiently (i believe)on purpose---a lot of special int. groups would not like that imo

Interesting article on the waning political sway of the south.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp

"Mr. Obama won in Jefferson County, which includes the city of Birmingham, and in the Black Belt, but he made few inroads elsewhere."

My home county.

SSI is not set up to turn a profit, it's set up to do just as it's name implies, provide social security. How proud you must be of your wealthy greedy friends.

pojo
bureaucrats are bureaucrats they are all the same at all
levels of government
surely you aren't that stupid to think that if you put them
in charge of every aspect of our lives that the country
will be better off' they have to much power already

Brian,
I didn't say he was a friend....as usual you hear whatever you want regardless of facts....

It highlights the absurdity of a gov't run retirement plan for people too undisciplined to plan for themselves....

American-Made: The Enduring Legacy of the WPA: When FDR Put the Nation to Work

"The WPA lasted for eight years, spent $11 billion, employed eight and a half million men and women, and gave the country not only a renewed spirit but a fresh face. Under its colorful head, Harry Hopkins, the agency's remarkable accomplishment was to combine the urgency of putting people back to work with its vision of physically rebuilding America. Its workers laid roads, erected dams, bridges, tunnels, and airports. They stocked rivers, made toys, sewed clothes, served millions of hot school lunches. When disasters struck, they were there by the thousands to rescue the stranded. And all across the country the WPA's arts programs performed concerts, staged plays, painted murals, delighted children with circuses, created invaluable guidebooks. Even today, more than sixty years after the WPA ceased to exist, there is almost no area in America that does not bear some visible mark of its presence."

http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780553802351-2

Seriously Jax, thats terrible. I've had to work every day of my adult life, and right now I work two jobs just to make ends meet. I'll probly make just about that amount in SS AND still have to work until the day I die.

Rosie,
I couldn't agree more. But it highlights what's wrong with gov't programs. How do you think I feel. I'm paying a large portion of what she's getting as I'll only see a percentage of what I pay in.

people too undisciplined to plan for themselves....

Wait till all those 401 k's finish going in the crapper Jack.

Anon,
Some may...... mine is up 12% this year. If they are managed properly and people don't panic sell they'll be fine......