Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Just peeking in, and here's a new thread....

Oh Dear Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!

New Zogby

Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 52.2%, McCain 40.3%
Error - +/- 2.9 percentage points

UTICA, New York - Democrat Barack Obama has slowly built a 12-point lead over Republican John McCain, consolidating support among young voters, Hispanics, and independent voters while McCain's support, even among his Republican base, is fading heading down the stretch, the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking poll shows.

http://www.zogby.com/

Pollster says AP’s numbers don’t add up -

The gloves are off - between the pollsters not the candidates - as polling guru John Zogby ripped an Associated Press survey showing the McCain-Obama battle down to a dead heat.

“The AP poll is not only an outlier, it’s just preposterous!” Zogby told the Herald last night.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1127236&srvc=2008campnews&position=5

Karl who ?

yeah Obama is really being crushed by this so called gaffe, he's being crushed in the polls. this story is old news.

Well, the Republicans are already spreading the wealth - it was Bush who proposed 'spreading the wealth' to Wall Street.

After four days of voting, Democrats continue to show up to the polls in much greater numbers than Republicans in both Northern and Southern Nevada.

At the close of polling Tuesday, a total of nearly 65,000 Democrats had cast ballots in Clark and Washoe counties, compared to just over 30,000 Republicans.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/32541224.html

Despite assertions that it was not cutting back on resources in the state, John McCain's presidential campaign has drastically slashed television advertising at Colorado's big three stations.

At the same time, national Republicans have canceled $600,000 worth of ads supporting incumbent GOP Rep. Marilyn Musgrave's re-election bid. And the campaign arm of Senate Democrats pulled out of the Mark Udall-Bob Schaffer race, where recent polls show Udall, a Democrat, with a wide lead. Colorado's days as a battleground state for the Nov. 4 election may be waning.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10788843

I don't think the socialist charges have any legs this time out. Even my most wing nutty acquaintences don't seem interested in it. They're still on the Muslim BS though -- they are the same ones who started sending out alarm emails back when Obama first ran for the senate.

Most of my Obama-fan friends are worried about one thing only -- voting fraud.

I hate it when George the dog wants out in the middle of the night.

Who's Karl Marx?

Oops...beat me to it, Anon. Sorry. But seriously, just who is this Karl Marx fellow?

Jamie - I did try to read Foucault's Pendulum and couldn't get into it. I think it might have been a bad time to try so will give it another go one day. I also have another of his, Baudolino. After I read the first chapter I could tell I would need a lot of quiet time - I liked what I read but it's going to be a long journey into another's thoughts and feelings and machinations.

That link to Dowd's column was terrific. I had a feeling Powell was being sincere, and find it hard to believe race would be a deciding factor for him - sexual orientation, maybe, but not race.

Champ -
Another dead guy who got it wrong.

Two patients limp into two different medical clinics,
with the same complaint. Both have trouble walking,
and appear to require a hip replacement.

The FIRST patient is examined within the hour, is
x-rayed the same day, and has a time booked for
surgery the following week.

The SECOND sees his family doctor, after waiting 3
weeks for an appointment, then waits 8 weeks to see a specialist, then gets an x-ray, which isn't reviewed
for another week, and finally has his surgery
scheduled, for a month from then.

Why the different treatment for the two patients?

The FIRST is a Golden Retriever.
The SECOND is a Senior Citizen.

Next time take me to a Vet!

Karl Marx?

Well, for economists, Karl is very important (even if you don´t agree with his views)....
Marx wrote the impeccable: DAS KAPITAL!
His theories are known as Marxism and one of his books "the communist manifesto" is also well known....

Spread the wealth is a very Karl Marx statement.... :-)

What's wrong with spreading or sharing wealth?

I have to laugh when I hear those nitwits at McCaint rallies booing the idea.

Craig,
I love the first sentence of your blog, except you forgot to add the following. After the word: "economy", you should have put a comma (,) and then write: However, both candidates are treated different when it comes to public gaffes.

OK How about these people "Spread some of their money around" If you want to go after the rich, here is a good place to start.

1. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.)
$230.98 million
2. Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.)
$225.96 million
3. Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.)
$160.62 million
4. Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.)
$80.40 million
5. Rep. Robin Hayes (R-N.C.)
$78.96 million
6. Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.)
$65.49 million
7. Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.)
$55.33 million
8. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)
$52.34 million
9. Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.)
$47.62 million

Dyslexics of the world: UNTIE.

Lets not forget this one either:

17. Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.)
$18.71 million

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get heartburn over the words "spread the wealth." Isn't that just the same as sharing our blessings? When we do well for ourselves, isn't it customary in someway to pay something back to that which helped us do well in the first place?

Spread the wealth = progressive income tax

Joe the plumber -- so 20 minutes ago.

I know a dog trainer who used the cortisone she had for her dogs to treat her own asthma. She doesn't have health insurance and could buy the veterinary cortisone pills over the counter. I think she got them at the feed store.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162191

Forget the income tax. How about a wealth tax? That is where the real money is. Go after assets that are the bulk of peoples wealth. Hell they can afford it.

Even better, just confiscate the assets of the rich! After all it isn't fair that some people have money and others don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct8HYm10tlI

el hombre de tax..........

Goodbye London, Hello Amsterdam

In an article titled “Gimme Tax Shelter”, the New York Times reported on this in February 2007 as newly public documentation surrounding the assets and wealth-transfer plans of the Rolling Stones demonstrated that the wily rockers have paid a mere 1.5% (as opposed to the British tax rate of 40%), or $7.2. million, on $450 million in earnings routed through the land of tulips with the help of their company Promogroup.

"The Caribbeans are thinking about trading profits, not royalties, so the smaller European countries like Holland have had to be creative, tax-wise,'' David Pullman, an investment banker in New York who caters to entertainers and athletes told the New York Times. ''They are going for the high-end stuff and don't want to be seen as shady like some Caribbean haven.''

More scandalous was the 2006 revelation that super-rockers U2 had transferred their song-publishing catalog from Ireland to Holland's Promogroup, in order to avoid a change in Irish tax law introducing taxes on royalties earned in excess of 250,000 Euros per year. Much ado was made of Bono's unwillingness to pony up his share of the tax obligation in service of the global debt relief and poverty eradication for which he so famously advocates.

Mark Warner -- likely the next Senator from Virginia is already spreading his wealth around. He has invested millions in rural SW VA to spur business growth, funded a health plan for children who don't have insurance and who don't qualify for Medicaid -- so far over 500,000 children have been served by the Virginia Health Foundation. Mark and his wife, Lisa Collis, have the Collis Warner Foundation which supports innovative programs to promote healthy families and prevent child abuse. I'm getting ready to participate in one of those funded programs next week when I attend a "train the trainer" conference to teach child care providers how to work with and help families who may be at risk for domestic violence and child abuse.

"Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get heartburn over the words "spread the wealth."

I agree Alicia -- all those people at the Rep-rallies can't be rich.

But I have seen one thing happening in the past year or two -- an upswing in anger or irritation or something -- about welfare. I've started hearing some grumbles from people I had never heard even discuss the issue.

"It's been raining money,"

The LA Times has a article on the Elwyn Tinklenberg story :

There weren't enough chairs for the volunteers crammed inside the four-room campaign office Wednesday morning. Every time aides hit "refresh" on their computers, hundreds more online donations appeared. Downstairs, the postal carrier spent 10 minutes trying to cram a two-foot stack of envelopes stuffed with checks into the mail slot.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-bachmann23-2008oct23,0,3266529.story

All of these right-wingers who prefer to think of "to those of whom much is given, much is expected" socialism, need to open up the Bible and turn to the new testament.
Jesus was a socialist.
All of that stuff about loaves and fishes....you know, if somebody bogarts the herring and ciabatta, somebody else goes without...and no matter how little you have, there's usually someone around who has less. Feel fortunate, feel abundant, help others up so that they, in turn can help others.
Jesus would've told them to suck it up & deal & pay their taxes, rendering unto Ceasar.

Here endeth the lesson GOoPers.

I got your Jesus for ya, Blue!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9xmvhQl2-Q&feature=related

I will admit how much I can't stand to watch shows like MTV Cribs anymore. People basically bragging about their nice houses, multiple expensive cars etc...

GOP donors critical of Palin's pricey threads:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081022/pl_politico/14840

Obama lead grows to 12 points over McCain:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081023/pl_nm/us_usa_politics_poll_18

THE POLL: Quinnipiac University poll, presidential race in Ohio (20 electoral votes) among likely voters.

THE NUMBERS: Barack Obama 52 percent, John McCain 38 percent

The poll was conducted from Oct. 16-21. It involved telephone interviews with 1,360 likely voters in Ohio, with a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 2.7 percentage points.

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=966444&c=y

I've finally found the time to start wandering through Bob Schieffer's latest book, the compilation of his on-air commentaries at the end of his Face the Nation broadcasts.

It's a great casual read with content that is as relevant today as when it was broadcast years ago:
http://www.amazon.com/Bob-Schieffers-America-Schieffer/dp/039915518X

I'm fascinated when Peggy Noonan starts talking about "presidential character" etc....it's well known that she was a gadfly who literally stalked Ronald Reagan until he gave up and offered her a job.

That does sound like a good book, Flatus -- I love Schieffer....

In a key battleground area of the state, the four suburban counties surrounding Philadelphia historically have voted Republican. "But with an increasing frequency lately, the Philly suburbs have been voting Democratic," Mr. Richards said. "In the new Quinnipiac poll, Obama leads in these counties, 57-31, a tide that will be hard to turn for John McCain before Election Day."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08297/922207-100.stm

Craig, And timing is everything.....

McCain said, "The fundamentals of our economy are strong." bad timing - and he lost the definition.

Where no need to define Barack statement.

Now McCain needs to gain the definition back of "Fundamentals" as the Ping has - then show the choice is clear.

Our AMERICAN FUNDAMENTALS include Free Enterprise, Capitalism, rewards for success

Mr. Obama also leads in Allegheny County, 54-39, the poll says.

Anon - do you ever sleep?

How about Dumb statements on national security.

Gotta thank Joe for that one... But scary - his statement may not be off mark that those that hate America will take on a Barack long before John McCain.

Rememner the undecideds - Like Craig said - bring those to your numbers - a few reports state that those will most likely belong to John McCain

All of these right-wingers who prefer to think of "to those of whom much is given, much is expected" socialism, need to open up the Bible and turn to the new testament.
Jesus was a socialist.
All of that stuff about loaves and fishes....you know, if somebody bogarts the herring and ciabatta, somebody else goes without...and no matter how little you have, there's usually someone around who has less. Feel fortunate, feel abundant, help others up so that they, in turn can help others.
Jesus would've told them to suck it up & deal & pay their taxes, rendering unto Ceasar.

Here endeth the lesson GOoPers.

Posted by: blueINdallas | October 23, 2008 7:27 AM

Sorry blue.
Jesus was NOTHING!
He was his own man... Don´t compare Jesus to a political movement please....

I agree, Jason -- dragging religion (in any manner) into politics makes me nervous. It's a short jump to "God is on OUR side."

I guess that was one of the reasons I got turned off to Obama so early -- when his campaign started taking on a quasi-religious tone...the new Joshua and all that.

Ping, in the Great Depression there were many people with their hands out hoping someone with something to spare would share with them. Many did.

There were other people who, rather than relying on others' charity, did such things as selling apples outside office buildings. They were the ones with the entrepreneurial spirit that McCain was talking about.

they stole those apples.......

October 23, 2008 - Economy Buoys Obama In Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania Quinnipiac University Swing State Poll Finds; McCain Gains Some Ground In Florida, But Fades In Ohio --- FLORIDA: Obama 49 - McCain 44; OHIO: Obama 52 - McCain 38; PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 53 - McCain 40

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1223

Looks like a lot of people out there want to share the wealth!

"For me the most moving moment came when the family in front of me, comprising probably 4 generations of voters (including an 18 year old girl voting for her first time and a 90-something hunched-over grandmother), got their turn to vote. When the old woman left the voting booth she made it about halfway to the door before collapsing in a nearby chair, where she began weeping uncontrollably. When we rushed over to help we realized that she wasn't in trouble at all but she had not truly believed, until she left the booth, that she would ever live long enough to cast a vote for an African-American for president. Anyone who doesn't think that African-American turnout will absolutely SHATTER every existing record is in for a very rude surprise."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Early_voting_in_Evansville.html?showall

mornin' all.

I thought it was Carl Marks. Go figure. Yeah he's another dead guy who got it wrong - which is why China's economy is doing so poorly compared to the rest of the world's economies I guess.

Sorry, Jason. Blue is right, philosophically at least. But you are right poltically. He wouldn't use the government to do the redistributing - he relied on the largess of the individual, but he wouldn't object to government redistributing wealth through taxation, either.

"they stole those apples......."

Off of teachers' desks?

So it is only GOOPER's that are stingy? Who knew.

Tax cuts to the wealthy to create jobs? The repug mantra has not changed and has not worked. Trust the repugs to pull us out of this economic hurricane? Only the repug base can believe in this tripe. Early voting continues to favor the dems....

Sturg.... LOL

Hey part of my health plan -- an apple a day!

And religion and politics - hey if it is part of you then how can you keep it out?

and visa versa....

The repugs have been sharing the wealth since that age of Reaganism dawned, steal from the poor to give to the rich!

jesus has a bumper sticker which says: "What would I do?"

--some comedian

brian...even worse, they print money just for the rich and state it is from the poor people in the form of a bailout. Then they take chump change and give it back to the poor in the form of a stimulus package.

What is the opposite of "spread the wealth?" It sounds like a caste system. Is that what John McCain is advocating? Do you think he could get away with arguing the flip side of spread the wealth in plain language? "My friends, under my plan I want to protect the status quo. No spreading the wealth here, my friends. If you're rich you'll stay rich under my plan. If you're poor... well, you just have to work harder than you already do. Have a business plan or better educate yourself. Save what little money you make and start at a community college. It will take some hard choices for you, my friends. Eat on odd numbered days or on even numbered days? One good thing, my friends--water is still fairly cheap. There is no wealth spreading here, my friends. If you're poor you'll just have to stay that way or pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Even if you don't have a pair of boots, my friends."

If you're poor or "middle class," spreading the wealth sounds good. It probably got Obama votes that he would not have gotten otherwise. Additionally, the whole "Joe the Plumber" angle is moot, in my opinion. He owes state taxes in Ohio and doesn't pay his parking tickets in AZ. Sounds like he doesn't want to pay his share of anything (other than taking care of his kids, which is highly admirable).

Enough with the labels of socialism, communism, baby killer, etc. McCain-Palin are great at slinging mud but what have they really proposed? Maybe they wouldn't be behind if they actually elaborated on their own plans and stopped the childish games.

Craig,

While I agree that this was turned into a gaffe by the McCain campaign and the media that needed another boost to the horserace, what Obama said and what the news said he said were two different animals.

For once the public caught on to the game fast, heard the message and said, "so what!" back at you.

"I drove down to the McCain-Republican office, across from the local newspaper on a downtown street, and walked in about 2:30 after my lunch interview with Amstutz.

I was greeted by two ladies of my own generation, Judy Dichler and Roma Nicholac, who told me that the office had opened on Sept. 22 and that "this is the first Friday we've stayed open." While we visited, a half-dozen people stopped by to pick up McCain-Palin yard signs. None was asked to do anything else for the campaign.

Just as I was preparing to leave, a third woman arrived and silently began hand-gluing mailing labels to a pile of brochures.

---------------------------------------------------------

When I visited the Obama-Democratic headquarters, two blocks from the McCain-GOP office, the contrast was remarkable. Sixteen people were at their desks, talking on phones or working on computers. Two of them were imports: Alain Hankin, a corporate trainer from Northampton, Mass., and father of two who decided to give the campaign five weeks of volunteer time; and David Litt, a New Yorker who graduated from Yale in May and, finding the job market bleak, also volunteered for Obama. Both were sent to Wooster to bolster what was already a vigorous local effort.

Blue Sparks in Red Ohio
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/22/AR2008102202882.html

Two more reasons not to vote for McCain and two more phrases for the graveyard --

My friends

Joe the Plumber

Hackneyed!

Gordo - from yesterday.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/going-to-ground.html#comment-162121

Spoken like a true non lawyer who doesn't trust the legal system. We're not going to agree on this, but you are wrong. The "facts" you post are not facts, but opinions based on your champions being unable (incompetent IMHO) to get the information THEY seek through the legal channels THEY'VE chosen. They waited too late to initiate the process and chose the wrong forum, respectively, to get the information they seek in time to affect the outcome of the election. Even if their pending motions were granted today, Obama's lawyers would have 30 days to provide their discovery answers, which if the answers revealed what you say they will, would simply be the basis for another suit to preclude Obama from serving as president. By the time the initial wrangling over motions to dismis (again based on standing, which individuals do not have) is over, Obama would have been sworn in. But then again, like I said, I don't think they really want the information. The innuendo they spread through useful tools (not unlike yourself - and don't take it as that much of a slight - we're all useful tools for someone or another) is much more damaging to Obama than the outcomes of the pending and any ensuing lawsuits are likely to be. btw, I am patiently awaiting the blockbuster disclosure that you promised about a month ago would be coming near the election. Is there any particular site you think we shouls monitor for this disclosure - or can we just wait for you to bring it to us in one of your links?

"When the old woman left the voting booth she made it about halfway to the door before collapsing in a nearby chair, where she began weeping uncontrollably. When we rushed over to help we realized that she wasn't in trouble at all but she had not truly believed, until she left the booth, that she would ever live long enough to cast a vote for an African-American for president. Anyone who doesn't think that African-American turnout will absolutely SHATTER every existing record is in for a very rude surprise."

That's a great story. I went yesterday to vote, and saw a much bigger percentage of blacks than I ever had at that particular early voting place. (However, I live in an area where there are a lot of blacks and hispanics. Interestingly, I saw no hispanics.) Among the blacks, though, were all age groups -- what was really cool was that quite a few had children with them, who all went to the ballot box with their parents.

And yes, given the huge lead McCain has in TN, I cast my vote for Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clemente.

B-rian and B-londe...
Now - now there you go jumping off to the radical left wing to incite those that have a hard time with understanding the impact of failed social engineering over sound fiscal policy – regardless of the parties in power that constitute our government….

So both of get all of your support from the Government with Government created jobs, innovation (now that is an oxymoron – Government Innovation) which is paid for by what % of the Population already?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162203

And the antibiotics that go in pet bird water jars work just as well on infected cuts. Of course, my son occasionally chirps at me as a reminder.

Jamie - so you belive the Fundamentals of our American System are flawed, That Hard Work, Free Enterprise, Capitalism are wrong?

Ahhh.. It is who can define the gaff faster and with what support!

For all the crowing the Republicans do about how they have a lock Real American , when I look at their crowds , I see a self selected group who are all white and older.

When I see the the Obama crowds it looks like a trip to my super market.

What many fail to realize, or perhaps except is that Obama is proving to be a Teflon candidate. The combination of his temperament and the country's hunger for change make him immune to the petty charges that have hurled at him. When you add to that the fact the McCain campaign is now completely bankrupt in the ideas dept and is trying to base it's entire campaign on a very minor "gaffe" of Obama's there is practically nothing that can stop Obama from winning this election.

Pogo - I so agree that to many people are fighting created ghosts and the Obama loves it... And in fact stirs it up everytime so he can spend that time avoiding his fiscal facts and deflect redirect his liberal self.

Let us judge only but what has been done and actual live support activities. Lets not judge by Words Just Words - Barack knows it....

My he and Gibbs have mastered the facade building machine and capitalized on the hate of bush and the fear of our economic situtation.

And then radical right wingers through stink bombs that only help divert from the meaningful arguments.

ping...me and Karl Marx, two peas in a pod!

"And the antibiotics that go in pet bird water jars work just as well on infected cuts. Of course, my son occasionally chirps at me as a reminder."

LOL@Jamie!

One of the advantages of having lived for a bit is that you can remember when the highest tier of income tax was 91%. It paid for all the infrastructure built during the Great Depression that kept people employed, WW II, The Gi Bill, and all the exansion of the US as a world power. When Kennedy came in it dropped to 60%.

All of this whining about how the rates might go above 33% when we have been turned into the world's biggest borrower and had our whole economic system practically destroyed with no benefits for the middle class is pure hooey!

So Anon - White and older are not Americans?
What is your point?

Ping, my friend, many reasons to hate George Bush and many reasons not to trust either McCain, Palin or Joe the Plumber.

Pong if you want to chat with me you'll have to drop tired worn out phrases like "social engineering". All economic policy (and tax policy) has elements of "social engineering". You could at least be honest about what you don't like is that finally we'll have economic policies that will reflect the needs of the majority of the Americans (dare I say "the masses") and not the needs of the bloated fat cat set. For 20 years you and your set has been patronizingly patting the heads of the middle and lower classes and just tell them to hold on, good times will soon be trickling down to you. Guess what they are buying it anymore.

And BTW Craig if any group took the words of Karl Marx (boy you really went out on a limb with that one today) it was the repugs who since the election of Reagan have used religion as the opiate to keep the masses lulled and in their place.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162226

With an unemployment rate of 25% many did the really decent thing and just died.

Our current unemployment rate when those who have dropped off the rolls are counted is skirting 8% and expected to go higher. When you add in those who want but have never held a job coming into the market it could go higher. It may not be depression level, but 10% - 12% is not out of the question.

Make friend with your vet and PetSmart, you may need them.

.

Barack Obama and John McCain are NOT dead even on stupid statements.

Fundamentals are strong? While Wall Street -- and the world's markets -- are in an unprecedented meltdown?

Sharing the wealth? As in: we are a community (as Jesus -- remember him?) reminds us, and a rising tide lifts all boats?

What small or any sized business owner does not realize: your consumers have to have some $$$ to spend for you to remain in business?

The GOP has jumped on the "wealth" remarks because they're out of anything else to talk about. Saw Karen Hughes on Larry King last night. She was going through the motions.

The country at large gets this one.

Obama leading all Midwest states in Big Ten Battleground Poll
http://www.bigtenpoll.org/

VIVA KARL MARX!

We've been monitoring early voting in states such as North Carolina, Georgia, Nevada, and Colorado and it is abundantly clear that registered Democrats are turning out at extraordinary rates, at least so far, and Republicans are not. Take the Tar Heel State, for example. Already 629,296 people have voted early, well above the pace of 2004. Democrats are over 56% of the 2008 total, compared to just 45% in 2004. African-Americans are about 30% of the early vote total, compared to only 17% in 2004.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=LJS2008102301

A Democrat's view regarding the news media coverage of this election.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-10-05-1.html

We don't need Jesus, we have Obama.

Karl was a genius and success that has changed the world and helped encourage innovations and the human spirit. What a shinning examples we can point to in this world!!

Hale Karl Marx !! Lets trash our system and follow one of this genius.. Hey we have a genius leader ready to take us there

Ping -
I was referring to the REAL American clap trap that the Republican Party has embraced this year, and for many many years.

You guys are about to wake-up and be a regional party, made up of old white people .

Karl Rove / Karl Marx two white guys who got it wrong.

Take the internet .... Under a Marx plan how would this have occured?

Remember in Karls world you are "The People" and you need to stay there

I always preferred Groucho, Chico and Harpo Marx.

Not sure how one celebrates the virtues a system of government they never had to lived under.

John McCain needs to state - We must return to our Fundamentals - they are strong - and unfortunately we have driffited away by both action and complacent behavior.

John McCain is the return to the Fundametals

Barack is continuation in the wrong direction.

AND BRAIN -- The key to a good election is to be on talking point - sorry if it bothers you - but OBama and Gibbs - are the masters.

Obama and Co. have done a great job of saying the same thing over and over and over......

Sorry if I am also making the same point - no not sorry - as this is the key.

Ping, my problem with the economic arguments from politicians and their supporters in both major parties is that those who make them act as if free enterprise and social engineering are concepts that cannot mutually exist in an economy, which of course is simply wrong. Both concepts exist in every economy, and finding a balance that works for a while in the context of the broader regional and world economies to provide a level of income redistribution that avoids the problems associated with high levels of indigency without depressing the entrepreneurial side of the economy to the point that it ceases to provide growth is the rub. The question becomes to whom the revenue collected by the government through taxes should be distributed to best achieve the goals of the governed. Reagan thought he had it, but the economy under Bush 41's admin. showed that he did not. Clinton thought he had it, but the recession of 2001 proved that he didn't. Bush 43 thought he had it, but the economy under his own admin showed he did not. I am of the mind that the biggest problem is that ideologies and the ideologues who espouse them that are part and parcel of the two major political parties fail to recognize that the economy is fluid and the tax system and economy as defined and controlled by government programs must be flexible and responsive to the changes in the economy. And we know that the effects are both direct - through actual distribution of revenue through government programs - and indirect - through the confidence of the consumer and how he or she spends his/her money as a result. It's alchemy I tell you, and our politicians do a horribly bad job of understanding the dynamic nature of the economy and explaining what balance they seek in it and how they plan to achieve it.

any system which depends upon humans to succeed is ultimately and inevitably doomed.

--sturgeone's law

Sorry, Jason. Blue is right, philosophically at least. But you are right poltically. He wouldn't use the government to do the redistributing - he relied on the largess of the individual, but he wouldn't object to government redistributing wealth through taxation, either.

Posted by: pogo | October 23, 2008 8:22 AM

Well I disagree completely.
Jesus was not political nor philosofical about religion. He had his religion, and that religion is Chrisitianity. You can never politicize him. If you have a bible please refer to the piece where the high priests wanted to make Jesus falter by asking him the question about: who the taxes belong to......

On point with what Patsi said: We will say, Jesus alligns with the dems, because they say: spread the wealth.... Jesus doesn´t sympathize with a flow, he has all his children at heart....

Failure is inate, Sturge?

McCain wants to build 45 nuclear reactors, and the Republicans chime in : "Look at France they did it !"

Well France did it by government mandate & tax money, something the great unwashed of the right never mention.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162247

Ping, I absolutely believe in all those things. I also believe in paying the bills. We have a huge deficit and a humongous debt. That is not going to go away particularly in an economic down turn with increasing costs due to unemployment, business failures, and crashing housing market.

LIke it or not, those obligations exist and to get out of it, the wealthy may just have to cough up a larger percentage than they have had to pay for the past 30 years.

there was only one christian and he died on the cross.....the rest are only imitators of an ideal.

---Neetch

Corey.....that has been the conclusion I draw from my observation and study......

However, I live in an area where there are a lot of blacks and hispanics. Interestingly, I saw no hispanics.)

Above quoted from Patsi....

This is a very interesting demographic. It will probably not be very important in this election anymore, but it will be very important to watch what will happen after BO´s 4 years in office........

Ping, my problem with the economic arguments from politicians and their supporters in both major parties is that those who make them act as if free enterprise and social engineering are concepts that cannot mutually exist in an economy, which of course is simply wrong.

Quoted form Pogo.....

Interesting analysis, and agree Pogo....

"I finally accepted Jesus. Not as my savior, but as a man I intend to borrow money from." - George Carlin

"I don't believe there's any problem in this country, no matter how tough it is, that Americans, when they roll up their sleeves, can't completely ignore." - George Carlin

There is also the problem of a politicians making promises that they cannot keep or that will bankrupt future generations, just to win elections. Where is the sanity in that?

Then a congress that is more concerned with getting reelected.

Times like this make me wish airconditioning was never invented. Then congress could not stand to be in DC more tha a few months a year. There would be alot less damage done.

Pong the only thing McCain has to do is decide if he's going to lose this election on the high or load road. You can shout repug talking points from the highest hill top all you want, the people aren't listening. You message has grown stale.

Barack is continuation in the wrong direction.

Obama and Co. have done a great job of saying the same thing over and over and over......

Posted by: Ping Pong | October 23, 2008 9:23 AM

Please explain Ping, maybe I missed it and you have explained allready, but I am trying to understand...

ping, my friend, we must return to the fundamentals of screwing the little people so the rich can keep us employed?

Pong there was an article in the Times the other day about people cutting back on their meds so they could put food on the table, try going lecturing them about "social policy" and see how far it gets you!

brian....even worse, people are cutting back on baby formula for their infants until they can pay cash for it and although I belong to the leche league and strongly believe in breast feeding, many moms rely on formula.

Pong here's another group you might want to explain your talking points to, I'm sure they will be very receptive to your point of view:

US foreclosure filings up 71 percent in 3Q

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/23/us-foreclosure-filings-up_n_137103.html

Between Jamie, Corey and Bow -- I am having a lot of serious laughs this am!

To wit:

From Corey --

"I don't believe there's any problem in this country, no matter how tough it is, that Americans, when they roll up their sleeves, can't completely ignore." - George Carlin

And Bow:

"Times like this make me wish airconditioning was never invented. Then congress could not stand to be in DC more tha a few months a year. There would be alot less damage done. "

With only 13 days left before the November election, the National Republican Congressional Campaign Committee is coming to grips with its dire circumstances -- making a series of advertising decisions in the last 48 hours to cut off incumbents who they believe can't win.

Since Monday, the NRCC has dropped advertising all together in Florida's 24th district, Minnesota's 6th district and Colorado's 4th district. All three seats are held by Republican incumbents who have badly damaged their own political prospects.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/10/house_republicans_bowing_to_po.html

My friends, John McCain has already been tested and he gave us up! Perhaps when McCain states that he can now pay for one of the five jets he crashed as a cracker jack pilot, we can all be assured that he is returning to fundamentals and paying for what he broke.

Jason, we'll just disagree on Jesus, but I won't argue who's right or wrong about him. But he did spend a huge part of his ministry urging the rich to give to the poor - the fact that one economic system or party more closely mirrors that than another does not politicize him. I do agree with you that he would not, in all likelihood, favor one political party or one political system over another, although I can't see anything in his teachings that would lead me to believe he would not reject a political party or system that was counter to his own beliefs. And while in your opinion Jesus was not philosphical about religion, I can certainly view his teachings philosphically - particularly since I don't believe in the God part of his teachings. Every religion, Christianity not excluded, is based in a philosophy - nothing more and nothing less. I may not believe what you believe, but I respect your beliefs and acknowledge that you have as much chance of being right as I do.

Blue: loved your comment at 7:27 a about bogarting the herring and ciabatta.

Actually, it was so good: reposting it here, for those who read threads from the bottom up (I do that sometimes, when just peeking in for a moment):

From Blue in Dallas earlier:

All of these right-wingers who prefer to think of "to those of whom much is given, much is expected" socialism, need to open up the Bible and turn to the new testament.

Jesus was a socialist.

All of that stuff about loaves and fishes....you know, if somebody bogarts the herring and ciabatta, somebody else goes without...and no matter how little you have, there's usually someone around who has less. Feel fortunate, feel abundant, help others up so that they, in turn can help others.

Jesus would've told them to suck it up & deal & pay their taxes, rendering unto Ceasar.

Here endeth the lesson GOoPers.

Once again, I take issue with your post, Craig. I would agree that traditionally a "spread the wealth" argument would suffer its usual fate at the hands of free market conservatives, but I do believe this election year is different. Remember, economic policy shifts often only happen in moments of crises. Perhaps now people are more comfortable taking a first step towards the European social democracy welfare state model. Not that I think Obama can deliver on such a thing, unfortunately, but a few steps in that direction wouldn't hurt.

Also, the "spread the wealth" attack really smacks of Reagan. I think we've moved beyond that era of political rhetoric - or, if not, at least Mac is showing that it doesn't work very well.

Finally, not to be too much of a stickler for historical facts here, but Karl Marx wasn't so much about "spreading the wealth" so much as overthrowing the bourgeoisie and taking control of the means of production. Ah, but who cares about that stuff these days...

Off to work....have a great day!

Craig and others:

what do you think about McCain's concentrating his efforts in Pennsylvania -- which does not have early voting? And has very stringent requirements for using an absentee ballot?

Am I being DOGRO here? Hopes of an October or early November surprise?

(I think it's probably desperation and lack of other targets, but significant that people cannot bank their vote early.)

Here's info on absentee voting from state website.

http://www.votespa.com/HowToVote/VotingbyAbsenteeBallot/tabid/78/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Jason, we'll just disagree on Jesus, but I won't argue who's right or wrong about him. But he did spend a huge part of his ministry urging the rich to give to the poor - the fact that one economic system or party more closely mirrors that than another does not politicize him. I do agree with you that he would not, in all likelihood, favor one political party or one political system over another, although I can't see anything in his teachings that would lead me to believe he would not reject a political party or system that was counter to his own beliefs. And while in your opinion Jesus was not philosphical about religion, I can certainly view his teachings philosphically - particularly since I don't believe in the God part of his teachings. Every religion, Christianity not excluded, is based in a philosophy - nothing more and nothing less. I may not believe what you believe, but I respect your beliefs and acknowledge that you have as much chance of being right as I do.

Posted by: pogo | October 23, 2008 9:52 AM

Why are some people just plain nice....
I heart you pogo.... We don´t have to agree, but respect is what your reasoning deserves...

But, one more lil thing.
One time a litlle poor old widow gave nearly all of her money to the collection plate, and Jesus said: What you gave is nore then any of the rich people gave...Eventhough moneywise, hers was nothing compared to the amount the rich people gave.
The moral of the story is: whether you are rich or poor, give as much as you can. The rich should give, but the poor should give too. Being poor is no excuse NOT to give...

Anyway, as I said earlier Pogo, I heart you.....

Pogo - we are in full agreement....
Thanks Jason -

Common Ground --
That has been my position - check the posts..
Social Policy that overrides sound fiscal policy!

So yes we must have Social policy – However it can not override the Fundamentals of our Economic foundations.

Sorry Brain I said it again

and I add...
Yes they both can and must coexist and in our Society. Combined with law that protects and encourages INDIVIDUALS to behave and act in a manner consistent with these principles. Not BIG GOVERNEMENT…

Since Jesus turned up in today's conversation, some might find this article interesting.

Myth: The Bible Is Conservative

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-bibleconservative.htm

PoU I think Craig linking Obama with Karl Marx pretty much tells us Craig's feelings about this election. Can a Fox talking head gig be far off?

Today's Reuters just out:

Obama lead on McCain grows to 12 points

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE49J0LF20081023

Thanks, Jason. (Watch all that heart stuff, people may talk). Yes, Jesus recognized that the value of giving is not measured by the amount of the gift, but by the cost to the giver.

PoU - McCain & Palin obviously didn't get the memo.

Beginning to look like the Powell endorsement is really helping Obama. He also found the "socialist" charge to be pretty absurd!

"LIke it or not, those obligations exist and to get out of it, the wealthy may just have to cough up a larger percentage than they have had to pay for the past 30 years."

Of course such claims don't support the facts. If a Trump is paying 36% federal tax, and you are paying 15%, who is paying more, who is putting their talents to work and creating jobs, new experiences, who is giving more to charities, who has founded foundations for higher education, your kind are the Trump likes?

Class envy is rather pathetic, a weakness in one's physiological make-up. Your rich, I'm not, you need to share more of your wealth with me even though I have done nothing to deserve it. In the end it is always the same old story. Those who have, and those who don't, but it is the those that have who put food on the tables of those who don't. Punish those who have worked hard, sacrificed, invested their talents and money to succeed, and reward the foolish, jealous, unqualified and lazy.

Those who want a world where every want will be provided to you by the government, have to know that includes everything you want and may not want. In such a government controlled world certain life styles practices, individuals, ages, IQ's, gene pool, family history, financial situations, may be viewed as to costly to maintain, requiring certain measure to be taken. You could become a victim of your own desire.

Brian: I agree. His selective framing of (minor) issues really does irk me sometimes. I wonder what he's going to do when McCain loses the election? But, you know, he'd probably say we are off the mark. He'd defend his posts by saying, "I don't like either candidate, I'm not biased." I would argue, however, that focusing on the minor issues with Obama (almost daily) while ignoring the train wreck that is the McCain campaign isn't really all that unbiased.

Pong could you explain to me how buying 300 billion dollars of bad debt at full face value makes for sound fiscal policy? I'm all ears.

Alan Greenspan is testifying before Congress and saying
"Not my fault"...unfortunately for him CNN, Gretchen Mortenson and others say.."Yes it is!"

Greenspan --"Who could have predicted?" Wasn't that your job?

I couldn't have said it better myself PoU.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162211

Great comment Blue. I wonder what Ping will have to say about this...

And PoU the use of the word "experience" in today's thread didn't escape my notice either, I can't wait to see how many McCain talking points the next thread will hold.

But Greenspan was everybodys darling. Somebody, please save his reputation. Can Larry King do it?

........... "He has a clearer handle on the big picture, on how various policy components fit together, and a strong sense of what his top priority would be. He wants to launch an "Apollo project" to build a new alternative-energy economy. His rationale for doing so includes some hard truths about the current economic mess: "The engine of economic growth for the past 20 years is not going to be there for the next 20. That was consumer spending. Basically, we turbocharged this economy based on cheap credit." But the days of easy credit are over, Obama said, "because there is too much deleveraging taking place, too much debt." A new economic turbocharger is going to have to be found, and "there is no better potential driver that pervades all aspects of our economy than a new energy economy ... That's going to be my No. 1 priority when I get into office.""

Klein's article in Time -

Why Barack Obama is Winning
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1853025-1,00.html

"even worse, people are cutting back on baby formula for their infants until they can pay cash for it "

BlondeW -- I read that WalMart is reporting that people are buying a month's worth of formula at the beginning of the month when they have just been paid. The article (can't remember where I saw it,)said the chain is seeing a shift in several buying patterns.

It reminds me of when my ex and I were in Germany in '69 and '70. We always stocked up on canned things, like a big canned ham, that we could eat on when we ran out of money at the end of the month.

Hey, Craig! We don't see enough of you on MSNBC!

Your comments about Obama's "spread the wealth" gaff are right on and they should cause pious Dems - including Obama himself - to think twice about excoriating Joe Biden for insisting that the next president will need help facing the upcoming tests to his new presidency.

First of all, Biden was only speaking the truth. A similarly lame excuse could be made for Obama's reference to a progressive tax system I suppose, but wasn't Biden chosen exactly BECAUSE he is likely to speak truth to power even when it is politically inconvenient to do so?

As a former Hillary supporter who has finally come around to appreciating the virtues of Obama, I do still worry more than a little about the pomposity factor with the young senator. If his less than gentle chastisement of Joe Biden's "verbal flourishes" as I believe he called them is an early indicator that Biden's expertise will be marginalized in the Oval Office, we're all in for a rough ride.

Humility is something that is probably too much to expect from The One, as Queen Oprah refers to him, but willful and pompously delivered stupidity when criticizing his running mate for stating the obvious - when he himself has been pushing the genius agenda of "spreading the wealth" with a Republican plant - is worrisome indeed.

Let's hope the two of them at least get the chance to work together for the benefit of this badly bruised and bleeding country of ours!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/opinion/23collins.html

My god,GailCollins has hit the motherlode today. I almost peed myself reading her column. I particularly liked these excerpts:

"Opening for a McCain rally in North Carolina last weekend, Representative Robin Hayes said he wanted “to keep the crowd as respectful as possible.”

In order to pursue that goal as efficiently as possible, Hayes then announced that “liberals hate real Americans that work and accomplish and achieve and believe in God.” This was an especially unfortunate turn of phrase given the fact that he had begun his remarks by saying he wanted to “make sure we don’t say something stupid.”"

and this one concerning Michelle Bachmann's comments about investigating the pro-American and anti-American views of members of congress:

"Today, in the post-macaca era, you’d figure that politicians would be so sensitive to the perpetual presence of recording devices that they’d censor their comments even while muttering to themselves when taking a shower. Not to mention comments made right after they have been made up, offered coffee in the MSNBC green room, had a technician install three different recording devices under their clothing and given a seat in front of a large camera."

and finally this one:

"Right now, all the polls predict that in less than two weeks, Barack Obama is going to be elected president. The McCain campaign disputes this. Large numbers of Obama supporters are also in doubt, possibly because they keep getting e-mails from their relatives in Toledo revealing that Obama has gone to Hawaii not to visit his ailing grandmother, but to destroy evidence that he is not actually an American citizen."

Gordo, you been writing letters from Toledo?

Special Threadilicious
An Intervention by blistersyeahbutchannel

Insulting the Messenger
Or sticking your head up your ass so you do not have to see
another point of view

pogo -----------------

"Spoken like a true non lawyer who doesn't trust the legal system."

Remember what SCOTUS did to Gore in 2000?

Do you agree with what was done?

You must, because you trust the legal system.
=======================

"Obama's lawyers would have 30 days to provide their discovery answers, which if the answers revealed what you say they will, would simply be the basis for another suit to preclude Obama from serving as president. By the time the initial wrangling over motions to dismis (again based on standing, which individuals do not have) is over, Obama would have been sworn in."

"... wrangling over motions to dismis ..."

He wants documents hidden - fact.

He is using the legal system to hide those documents - fact.

He does not want the American people to know about his "hidden" past

Anselm, it has been repeatedly shown that the rich and super rich are the least likely to donate to worthy causes. It was such an outrage to Ted Turner that he called his fellow billionaires on the carpet and demanded that they start massive giving.

I personally believe that NO ONE deserves that level of wealth. The Republicans and so called "free market capitalists" like to espouse the false notion that everyone has equal footing of opportunity in America. It's such bullshit ! The only way that this could possibly be true would be if there was a 100% inheritance tax on every estate, every time. In this situation the children of the wealthy would have to fight and work as hard as others do to make it or fail. Rather than repealing the death tax, I am for all taking it all away when they die.

Class envy is not pathetic. Class arrogance is pathetic. Of course the U.S. Constitution was created to protect the higher classes from the majorities, which in this time were the agrarian farmers who were paying ridiculous debt charges to the monied tax and were ready to take up arms to defend what little they had. The meeting for updating the Articles of Confederation was totally co-opted by the "Virginia Plan" which laid the groundwork for the U.S. Constitution. The meeting was only supposed to be a means to have the ability for a standing army. The Virginia Delegation was very clever... They brought in a written proposal which was given to all the delegates and the debate was then framed by the document and became the outline for what was discussed.

Word to the wise: if you are in a controversial meeting or situation where dicey issues need to be discussed, be the person who brings a well written outline. More times than not, the outline or proposal becomes the driver of the meeting's agenda. It worked in the founding, and it still works today.

GORDO, same dance, different hall... broken record, broken record, broken record. Your postings are .... RIDICULOUS... see definition in previous blog.

But Greenspan was everybodys darling. Somebody, please save his reputation. Can Larry King do it?

Posted by: Bowmanc Author Profile Page | October 23, 2008 10:19 AM

About all Larry King can do for Greenspan is buy him a personalized drool cup

And of course Mrs. Greenspan should not be reporting on the financial crisis.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/spread-the-wealth-wins-votes.html#comment-162205

Bow ! Brilliant post and I totally agree! Thank you for posting it.

And BTW Craig if any group took the words of Karl Marx (boy you really went out on a limb with that one today) it was the repugs who since the election of Reagan have used religion as the opiate to keep the masses lulled and in their place.

Posted by: BrianInNYC | October 23, 2008 8:58 AM

This is the day of many brilliant posts, and Brian's is a very important one. Way to go Brian...

Anselm, learn to read. Jamie wan't talking about giving to the poor. Jamie was talking about paying for the deficit and debt as a result of programs the governement enacted, and that in the context of a bad economic climate that might impact the rich. Those programs include the recentcorporate bailouts given to the poor managers of A.I.G., etc.., so maybe you're right to that extent.

" I also believe in paying the bills. We have a huge deficit and a humongous debt. That is not going to go away particularly in an economic down turn with increasing costs due to unemployment, business failures, and crashing housing market"