Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Craig:

I think the only way McCain could of won tonight was if he didn't try to win.

I thought that he might have had a certain sense of freedom and levity caused by his sinking polls numbers.

Basically - just come out and say "F*ck it" - I barely have a shot so I am gonna have some fun and say what I want to say.

Instead McCain looked like this was his last ditch effort and tried to accomplish all of what the CW said he had to accomplish - and it just reinforced that he was behind and fading.

With Colorado, Florida, New Hampshire, and Virginia moving into the Democratic column, and Georgia, Montana, and South Carolina moving from the Republican column to "Too Close to Call," the Democratic Party appear poised to win the Electoral College on November 4th.

Coupled with Barak Obama's probability-of-winning moving over the 80th percintile, the Presidential race is beginning to look like a convincing win for the Democrats with just three weeks to go.

http://worldsofspike.blogspot.com

Warren IMO McCain's fatal error throughout this campaign has been that he resents running against Obama. He really doesn't consider Obama to be his equal (and I'm not talking about race) and has never been able to hide his contempt.

I thought HRC suffered from the same problem.

They both made the mistake of letting that disdain come through.

They should have each acted like the gracious elder that compliments the young upstart on all he has accomplished, especially with new voters, but then takes him under their wing - pats him on the head - and says you still have a lot to earn.

You have disdain for an equal.

Have any idea why Philip Berg wants to see certified copies of Obama’s Application and Admission forms for Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School? Can you guess what SoetorObama is hiding?

You tell me SoetorGORDO...

oh GORDO it's been fun to watch, but you're gonna have to give it up pal. what's done is done.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/15/who-won-the-last-debate-o_n_135066.html

check out the Fox vid on this page, too funny!

Craig maybe GORDO has dogs that need to be walked!

Joe the Plumber gets his 15 minutes of fame...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-15-analysis_N.htm

Craig -------------------

He is hiding something. Problem is no one has been able to force the info out of Obama and the DNC. I completely understand how unbelievable all of this seems. I can't believe they would try to get away with something like this -- but they are trying. Berg is prepared to take this to the Supreme Court. There are serious questions about dual citizenship, etc. Berg is waiting for a decision from the judge -- been two weeks last Monday.

Lets assume for one very far fetched moment GORDO that this time you are right (i said very far fetched) dual citizenship would not prevent Obama from assuming the office of president. Try again.

Jamie,

Karl asked me to forward his selections for the TM EC sweepstakes. Given the deadline I went ahead and gave JM the benefit of the doubt on the toss-up states. Therfeore Karl's entry is Obama 313 , McCain 225. Thanks.

http://www.rove.com/election

OK guys -- time to get some sleep. Got to go figure out how to feed the world's hungry again tomorrow...To be honest, the conversations I've been having for the last couple days has been a hellalot more interesting that this Presidential debate. At least the decisions these people make actually impact people on a daily basis.

McCain's swan song: This guy sang it just weeks before his death, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HhAcvlCPb4&feature=related

Of course I meant McCain's political demise.

In a time warp, in this video Barbra Streisand sings this to Obama from 45 years ago...our themesong...I had never heard the prologue before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA8OmK3qslw

" Look I don't care about some old washed-up terrorist "

John McCain -

" Look I don't care about some old washed-up senator "

Me -

Best debate moment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNzsxTj0dnM&eurl=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/15/final-debate-mccains-deer_n_135063.html

Craig

Will Big Hit Buda still be singing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83lum1XcOug Elect Obama after a visit from the Obama tax man. You see Big Hit Buda and Joe the Plumber are both members of the 5% group who will see their taxes go UP and UP and UP

VJ Machiavelli
http://www.vjmachiavelli.blogspot.com

in a bizarre parallel black hole world, let's say gordo's right about dual/faux citizenship but there's no proof until after an election with a resounding win. would not the court let the pres. mantle pass to the vp on the ticket that clearly expressed the will of the people?

iow, will a ballot with two names be found void ab inititio if one name is false?

politicallypissed...

Mike Farrace; 9:34 pm ..................... " personal insults at Obama rallies was patently untrue", as much as I hate to agree with you, you're right, you don't have to go to a rally, just take a trip to Trinity church..............................

I just want to say that invoking Trinity Church don't really mean much.

If were going to hold Obama for what is said in Trinity Church whether he was there or not than we also have to hole McCain to what is said in Paisley's Church, Robertson's Church, Falwell's Church as well. And lets not forget Palin's either.

Or how about the Our God is bigger then your God at a Palin rally recently.

Religion does no one any good when it is used in politics against each other.

Otherwise you do make some valid points.

OSH

A thief believes everybody is a thief.

Jack

MoJo is waving his big ol' GOP flag more and more these days. He's stacked the panel with his GOP buddies too.

Joe the Plumber is not registered to vote! ?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html?showall

Obama and the Freedom of Choice Act. H. R. 1964, S. 1173

McCain only alluded to this last night, and I believe missed the needed knockout punch by not exposing exactly what FOCA is and what this act will do, and not sighting Senator Obama's speech before Planned Parenthood on July 17, 2007 where he said among other things, "The first thing I'd do as President is sign the Freedom Of Choice Act.".

I do believe this should and will become a major focal point in the McCain strategy, along with Joe the Plumber, taxes and the economy. If McCain's camp can properly promote and executed on these issues, this can can become Obama's Waterloo.

If you didn't notice last night when Ayres came up Obama condemned the acts of Ayres but not the man like somehow there was no relationship between the two.

How did ayers get the job on the Annenberg thing.....werent the republicans who were involved at the time at all concerned about his unrepentant terrorist status? Or were they just trying to lay a trap for obama to spring up in what was then the future............they shoulda said something THEN.

Joe S. is blasphemous

Joe the Plumber, non-registered voter, whose father is apparently a big GOP donor, was mad that Obama's visit to his neighborhood interrupted his "football tossing" and decided to go to Obama and goad him. Then he said he wasn't satisfied with the Obama's answer and said Obama "tap danced like Sammy Davis Jr."

Nice guy that Joe.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml

Also -- apparently he's not a licensed plumber but owns a construction company.

patd- I've been wondering that myself.

Wow, another personality of Sybil "Blinky" McCain showed up last night. (How many Red Bulls did that guy have before the debate, anyway, or is it the anti-aging 'roids he's allegedly been taking?) Enjoyed the little dance he did behind the desks at the end...and how he took off down the stairs without his wife. Not sure which piece of disinformation he spewed was my fave; too many from which to choose.

Loved what Obama had to say about foreign trade and about calling on people like Warren Buffet and members of both parties for input.

Although it would be interesting to have a veep who was protected from witchcraft, I've gotta go with Obama/Biden.

A lot of people are "palling around with" Ayers. He's been accepted by many people and institutions despite what he did in the past. If McFailin is gonna use that as an issue, well, let's take a trip down Keating 5 road, shall we?

He's "not George Bush"? McCain & Bush are indistinguishable on many issues. Just as salmonella & e Coli aren't the same, but they are both very bad.

Charles Schiffer did a great job and loved the quote from his mom.

Joe-the-plumber? Any relation to Joe 6-pack?

Joe's construction company has revenues well under the $250,000 threshold. So Faux News happened to have a camera near Joe, son of the big GOP donor, to ask Obama a question about taxes that would not even affect him, and then McCain would have specific talking points to deliver at the debate? Hmmmm....

http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/16/the-plumber/

On Imus, while killing time, they'll sometimes show street scenes from outside the studio.

Watching people as they cross the street on the way to their offices, it struck me that a lot of the people weren't healthy, but were trying to walk as if they were--probably hoping that they could avoid being culled from the herd.

From our debate watching group-- the biggest laugh of the night was McCain's Troops to Teachers (and we assume if they turn out to be "bad teachers" --the reverse Teachers to Troops.)

We also acted out the scene where bad teachers are given new jobs as the "lunch lady" (gender unimportant) here's your hairnet!

Although I think it should be mandatory for every "legal" age citizen to vote, those who don't vote are just as such as affected by our laws and regulations as those who do vote. Joe the Plumber is the symbol of what happens if work hard, sacrifice, save your money, hoping to prosper and open your own business someday. You then have someone like Obama to come along and tell you, 'I'm not penalizing you because of your success, I just want to give those under you a fair chance'. What is wrong with this that statement? Obama is penalizing the very person he wants to give a chance, after they become successful. In its truest sense this is a classic example of Liberal thinking government, giving you a hand up to help you become successful, then after you reach success we will cut your hand off, and then ponder why you failed.

KGC, troops to teachers is really a pretty neat program:
http://www.dantes.doded.mil/dantes_Web/troopstoteachers/index.asp

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159699

Dexter, There is an interesting story connected with Streisand about that song. She was 18 years old, a rather waif like kid in funky clothes singing in a tiny New York club as a virtual unknown, but the word got around about the "Voice" and the unique way she sang Happy Days Are Here Again as a kind of bittersweet resignation. The appearance with Judy Garland with Barbra singing Happy Days and Judy doing her signature "Come On Get Happy" was one of Streisands first big TV appearance.

Within eight years she had one a Tony on Broadway, become a star in major motion pictures and morphed into the Streisand we know today.

Obama 390
McCain 148

Flatus.....you know how it is......watching National Geographic, or Discovery channel you can sometimes see that the old lion doesnt dare let it get about that he has a bad back.......

"Not me....whippersnapper......Im as strong as I EVER was......you better watch out, or I'll knock you around like I used to........"

dick gregory on Imus

Got it AP

Flatus

In the moment of the debate, it was funnier. But you are right -and when I was in sixth grade, my teacher had just returned from Korea and some of the most memorable moments of the class were when he talked about his experiences.

anselm....that's all well and good but as it's been pointed out Joe wouldnt be penalized.......

Anselm

The only problem with your statement is that under the programs proposed by the candidates (none of which are truly going to see the light of day), good ol' Joe Plumber would be better off under Obama than he would under McCain.

It is a shame that no one has set down with him and explained it well enough that he could vote his self interest rather than his prejudices.

Divalicias
"Joe's construction company has revenues well under the $250,000 threshold"

And should Joe want to expand his company and hopefully produce more revenue, Obama awards his success by subjecting him to higher taxes. Never understood the Liberal theory that you penalize the very ones who make the products and provide the employment? What Obama fails to see, I guess because he never owned a business, is Joe employees people, he wants to expand his company, expanding the business would mean more employees and equipment, more taxes collected because of a growing business. You can't do that if the government comes in and levies more taxes on you, you might as well stay right where you are. Plus this $250,000 in revenues is so ridiculously low. Joe isn't making $250,000, his business is and his business is paying taxes, salaries, social security, supplies, upkeep, rent, insurance, trucks, gas, repairs, workers compensation, etc. By the way Joe lives in a neighborhood of $90,000 to $140,000 homes, hardly the CEO lifestyle type Liberals like to trot out.

And $250,00 applies to Joe's income not that of his business. He isn't measured on the business gross but his personal gross which is a much different number.

mornin' all.

I was srprised at the end of the debate - Watching the CNN approval graph, I thought McCain was getting a better response from the OH uncommitted voters. For those republicans who want to feel a little better about the debate, Fox had a voter line set up and (in the immortal words of Gomer, "surprise, surprise, surprise") their viewers said McCain won by a margin of about 6 to 1 the last time I peeked in. Mrs. P, no fan of Obama, said to me when I came to bed "McCain looks like an old geezer, doesn't he?" Kinda sums up my reaction as well. He definitelyneeds to go see his dentist and get those molars checked to see if he ground them down to the gum line.

Obama did miss one very good opening - when McCain called on Obama to repudiate Lewis' statements about McCain's campaign generating the same atmosphere as George Wallace's, Obama could have said somethinglike "As soon as you repudiate your running mate's statements about me palling around with terrorists."

Jamie, put me down for Obama 301 McCain 240, winner declared at 12:01 Eastern time (is it standard or DS at that time? Whichever is in effect) with a 5% margin.

KC, flatus is right about troops to teachers - plus it gives servicemen something to do since there aren't many jobs for them.

I just read Joe the Plumber's interview with Couric. He's a republican and he's lying about having a pretty good idea about who he's voting for. He makes less than $250K, and if there's one thing that is very clear about an otherwise vague economic plan, it;s that obama has said in no uncertain terms that he won't raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $250K a year. The slippery slope argument is republican BS to mischaracterize and demonize a progressive tax structure.

jamie, make that Obama 301, McCain 237 (Is the math rigth now? It's way to early for me to be adding and subtracting)

Anselm.......most everyone standing under the sewage drip which is all that actually manages to "trickle down" is waking up to the smell......and even the rank and file GOP gunrack truck feller can see it and the polls say he's going to finally vote for his own financial interest instead of swallowing that gop line about "give the rich feller the tax breaks, and you guys will get it later"..... they're getting tired of waiting for the pennies to drop.

Oh Anselm......can you say "VooDoo Economics"? George H W Bush could and did say it. But he was beaten by the alzheimered actor and decided to change his mind so his son Neil could waltz into the S&L scandals........

"A thief believes everybody is a thief." whskyjack7:06 AM

Ain't that the truth Jack! Truer words were never spoken.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159708

Good post Sea!

" Basically - just come out and say "F*ck it" - I barely have a shot so I am gonna have some fun and say what I want to say."
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159673

Warren, I think you're right. Isn't that the best feeling when you decide to do that? So liberating. What's he got to lose at this point.

warren's scenario for Mac in last night's debate would never happen for one reason and one only: Mac wants it too badly..........He's desperate to win.

Hey Rita,
It sure is good to see you back. Enjoy your posts.

Go Joe the plumber!

Joe the plumber is real hero of the debate
"They clashed on the economy and scored points off each other on negative campaigning.

But in the end, the real star of the third and final presidential debate was neither John McCain nor Barack Obama but a small town plumber called Joe."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4952909.ece

"Mac wants it too badly..........He's desperate to win."

Maybe that's always been his problem Sturge.

Jamie,

Reading Obama's tax plan he doesn't mention a figure for business. But most small business are sole proprietorship or S Corp, and are taxed as ordinary income. What I find funny is Obama tax plan keeps referring back to the taxes paid during the Ronald Reagan presidency, since then the tax code has been modify and changed numerous times.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Pogo

You need to redo your number unless you think a third party is going to take some votes. It has to total 538

Never mind just saw the correction

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159737

Anselm,

You might want to read that timesonline article. I think Joe agrees with you.

Anselm, it's just called progressive taxation. And you are conveniently omitting the fact that he's able to write off most of his business expenses under the current tax code - and that part of the tax system is not proposed to change under Obama's plan that I'm aware of - and all that crap about living in $90-140K neighborhood is just that - he's no CEO, he's a middle class owner of a small construction company, likely does some fair volume of work for cash that never goes reported, and only the profits of his business - revenue after offsetting expenses is taxed. Of course he could be the one small contractor who isn't part of the underground economy, but I digress. And under the current tax structure, if he were able to become the wealthy CEO he aspires to become, he will hire smart accountants who will make sure that like Warren Buffet he shelters his income and pays a smaller percentage of his income than his secretary.

Pogo
Well yes but it was great for a whole series of cheap shot jokes about waterboarding etc.

Hi, Craig! Am I the only viewer who thought McCain's crowning moment - "I'm not President Bush.... If you had wanted to run against George Bush, you should have done it four years ago" or some such - was actually a ringing endorsement of Senator Obama?

If Barack Obama was qualified to run against President Bush in 2004, wouldn't he be super-qualified to run against McCain now? Just wondering if anyone else noticed....

Chloe -- Joe is NOT a plumber -- at least not a licensed plumber in Ohio. He's actually Joe the Construction Company Owner.

Post debate 538 numbers

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

Obama uses the Reagan tax rates because the nitwit mouthpieces like Hannity use Reagan's reign as the touchstone of successful Republican management of the economy through tricle down economics and reduced taxes on the rich. It's the period when the cyclical nature of the economy was ignored by Republicans in order to "prove" the success of that theory (that's come back in their defense of Bush's failures in that area hasn't it?), deficit spending was accepted as hunky dory, and the national debt became the financier of economic expansion. Reagan's mismanagement of the economy led to Bill Clinton's election, but the republican sycophants fail to mention that.

hey, anon-p, here ya go, what you were wanting to see -- AP: "The Secret Service is looking into a second allegation that a participant at a Republican political rally shouted 'kill him,' referring to Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama." http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/articles/2008/10/15/secret_service_looking_into_obama_threat_at_rally/

KC, I'm sure it was - was there a special drink for the occasion as well? Considering how, ummmm, BORING the debate was, jokes and alcohol wuld be the high points.

Pogo,
I agree with you on the tax ideas, but I think a lot of people worry about the same things Joe worries about too. After all, he is a good example of the middle America swing voter (whether others agree with them or not). And the Robin Hood thing isn't going over too well. Here's a couple of quotes from him on that article:

"Robin Hood stole from greedy rich people and redistributed it to the peasants, so to speak, so if he's calling us peasants, I kind of resent that," he said.

"He said he wants to distribute wealth. And I mean, I'm not trying to make statements here, but, I mean, that's kind of a socialist viewpoint. You know, I work for that. You know, it's my discretion who I want to give my money to, it's not the government decide that I make a little too much and so I need to share it with other people. I just -- that's not the American Dream. "

TG, Obama could have come back to that with the snappy retort - "No, unlike you, John, I haven't been running for president since 2000. I kind of liked theat John McCain, but you lost that one too, right?"

sturgeone,

I am always amazed by what employees think they should be getting paid. Not sure what business experience you have, but it is the leadership of a company which plots the company's course. And whether we like it or not, it is because of their knowledge, expertise, leadership, foresight the heads of business receive more money then the workers. Question for you. Should workers/employees hourly salary be based on a % the company's profit/bottom-line? Should the employee share in the ups and downs of the company during good and bad times? Not sure you'll find many jumping at that opportunity, but if the did they I bet would look at their employment with the company differently. My partner, a factory worker, is paid a very nice hourly wage, works in a clean environment, all insurance paid for by the company, has a 401k with the company which the company matches, the employees of this company know there is not a better opportunity around, yet they think they should receive more? I ask, more what. They answer more money. I tell them then quit and go someplace else where you'll receive more money. Silence.

chloe, that's just people buying the GOP recharacterization of a progressive tax system as socialism. It's not, and letting the repugs get out front and own that issue is a failing of the Dem party. You ask any of those "peasants" who should pay more in taxes, them or Trump, and almost 100% of them will say Trump should . In fact, most of the rich will probably agree, and those who don't are just greedy bastards whose mothers are proud they've made it but are ashamed of them. The GOP is great at explaining things using fairy tales and other stories that even the uneducated will understand. Who's discounting the intelligence of the voter? No, let me answer that - the GOP is. The irony is, Joe, the guy in the middle, is nothing byut a republican - I'll guarantee you he listens to Rush and Hannity - and believes every lie they tell.

pogo,

No I didn't forget to include business deduction, but as you know deductions are not dollar for dollar it all depends on your tax bracket. So if you send $1000 in supplies and are in the 28% tax bracket you save $250 on your taxes. And when you purchase depreciate items, you have to recapture the cost when they are sold. A lot of business people forget that small little detail, recapture.

Point taken pogo.
You think he's been brainwashed.

I am always amazed by what employees think they should be getting paid
--Anselm

nice paragraph........I dont see it as having anything to do with voodoo economics and trickle down though........

Pogo

Alcohol was definitely involved. I took suggestions for new cocktails last night -and Chef Sheila suggested the "Tax Cut."

Hah! MSNBC is talking about "Joe the Plumber" website.

Rez -- was that you who bought that domain name last night?

nanny,

He's just another guy with another opinion.
That doesn't make him ignorant. He didn't ask to be thrown into the middle of all this partisan argument. And we shouldn't be criticizing him as though he were running for office.

.

This was posted after the new thread began last night -- Joe's Daddy is Charles Keating's son-in-law.

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/?s=Wurzelbacher

Hello, MSM? Anyone there? Hellloooo....?

oh GORDO it's been fun to watch, but you're gonna have to give it up pal. what's done is done.

Posted by: Craig Crawford | October 16, 2008 12:42 AM

Craig, c'mon, what else is there for GORDO? Conspiracy theorists often lead lonely lives, especially when their propaganda is proven to be just that.

" George H W Bush could and did say it. But he was beaten by the alzheimered actor and decided to change his mind so his son Neil could waltz into the S&L scandals........"

And sturge, remember that when No Child Left Behind was pushed through by Teddy and W -- W's brother Neil had just invested in a software company that sold standardized testing.

Neil's gifts just keep on keepin' on....

Chloe -- Yes he did ask to be thrown into the middle of a "media firestorm." Don't be so gullible -- it was a set up -- his father is the son-in-law of Charles Keating -- a long-time friend of the McCain's. He traveled to place where he knew Obama would be and asked his pointedly-crafted question about tax rates, after which the talking points were carefully prepared for McCain to recite at the debate, thus catapulting Joe to his 15 minutes of fame.

Brilliant but desperate.

who should pay more in taxes, them or Trump?

Trump, and he does pay into a higher tax rate.

An article some may agree with, others i am sure will agree with the idea that the federal government owes them a tax refund even though they are aren't subject to a income-tax liability.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

Champ..... congrats on the Phillies!..... great game last night....

did see some of the debate..... McCain looked like he wanted to jump out of his own skin.... he looked very uncomfortable.....
I did think it was the best of the 3 debates...... the format actually let them have one......

what difference does it make if Joe is a plumber or owns the construction company..... who his father gives money to..... which radio personalities he listen to..... he was exercising his constitutional rights to go to a rally and confront the candidate..... we ALL have the same right.....

I remember back in the primaries when I joked about wanting to go to a Guiliani rally and confront him...... you all thought it was funny and approved.....

When I watch this video I not only get massive goosebumps, I also get teary eyed. Judy and Barbra together are awesome...

HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf53oFb4IKA

Right, Anselm, you're not taxed on the deductions. (And it would be $280 in your example). It's how schedule C (and whatever the other schedules for non incorporated businesses - I forget what the schedules are designated) works - Mrs. P & I do this every year for her business. It reduces your taxable income by the amount of the allowable deductions, not your tax, which would be a tax credit, and no one's tax scheme proposes that. Recapture is something that doesn't affect most small businesses because they use up the equipment the discard it. I'm not an expert on taxation, and recapture is a bit outside my base of knowledge, but in being involved with about 10 business tax returns, 8 of which were for businesses that were ultimately sold, I've never seen recapture become an issue, bu then again, each was rolled over in a like-kind exhange, so I guess it wouldn't. When the business is ultimately sold, that has to be reckoned, but recapture is not a huge issue for most small businesses in my experience - and that's the only businesses really at issue in McCain's mischaracterization of Obama's tax plan. And I don't think Joe was concerned about that, either.

Patsi....

here's an article in yesterday's Christian Science Monitor that I think will interest you....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1015/p09s02-coop.html

"what difference does it make if Joe is a plumber or owns the construction company..... who his father gives money to..... which radio personalities he listen to..... he was exercising his constitutional rights to go to a rally and confront the candidate..... we ALL have the same right....."

Hear Hear! Renee

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159713

Anselm, it's so refreshing to hear MEN tell women what to do with THEIR bodies. Frankly, most women will find Obama's support of the Freedom of Choice act to be a stark positive, along with a large number of progressive men. It's time to stop claiming ownership over people's bodies and let them decide for themselves. I can tell you, from family experience, that a decision to abort was made, and it was not made lightly. It was done with anguish and sadness.

As a Gay man, you should also demand that laws limiting what you can do with your own body should be dismantled... Or don't you care that homosexual sex is illegal in many parts of the USA?

Apparently Joe The Plumber doesn't believe in Social Security either. And he's proud we're in Iraq.

Joe the Plumber is powerful. He made Obama come down his street and stop to talk to him.

Republican mind control is awesome.

"I am free to criticize him if I so choose."

Sorry nan, Wasn't trying to spoil your fun. Go for it.

Intereting article, Renee -- I know several women who fit into that category.

... I think it should be mandatory for every "legal" age citizen to vote, those who don't vote are just as such as affected by our laws and regulations as those who do vote.

Posted by Anselm...

Ah good! Something I TOTALLY agree with you about. In my host country, everyone is required to vote and will be fined if they do not and possibly go to jail. What this does is stops the dirty tricks that are done to disenfranchise potential voters and vote challenges which only make many in the populace disillusioned and question why they should bother. Voter suppression is not allowed here. Also, elections are always held on a Sunday (since most businesses are closed then) so everyone can vote.

Good point and glad to have agreed with one issue you have posted on.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159762

I am always amazed at how many CEOs make 400 times the workers pay. NO ONE IS WORTH THIS !!!

renee, what mattes is that, whether by intent or ignorance, Joe was wrong when he told Obama that under Obama's tax plan he would pay more taxes - in fact he would pay less, but that won't get you on TV. Obama had the opportunity to correct him, but didn't, or if he did, the correction isn't getting the airplay Joe's mischaracterization is getting. It doesn't matter whether he's a plumber or a construction company owner - other than by the appearance that is being conveyed - what matters is that he's a small businessman who makes less than the $250K threshold in Obama's tax plan that would trigger an increase instead of the decrease in taxes he would get under the plan. If you haven't seen it or read it, go click on the Couric interview link jamie provided. It's pretty revealing. This was IMHO a set up.

Quite a few countries have compulsory voting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting

Some enforce others do not.

Gee, please tell me I'm wrong, but wasn't Charles Keating the man who brought down the Savings and Loans Banks with the help of John McCain?

And Joe is his son-in-law!

Who would have guessed that?

Same old, same old.

AP, I'm SURE that was just coincidental. LOL

I say no to compulsory voting. too many idiots vote already.

Yeah that's right ..bring back the poll tax and no more women and people of color voting either

"We are joining you in looking to the future because that's where you find solutions.

---Sarah Palin
sorry.....that's just kind of stupid.
seeing as how there havent been any for the last 8 yrs, the future is the only place the gop can honestly claim to have even a hope of a solution......trouble is all the gop's solutions lead to bailouts, rescues, trillions in national debt, big money scandals, sheesh.....those guys just keep on kicking it........

trouble is all the gop's solutions lead to bailouts, rescues, trillions in national debt, big money scandals, sheesh.....those guys just keep on kicking it........

to fast on the submit--------The gop is at a point of being discovered for the sham that it is, The D's should take this opportunity to tear them down point by crooked point, and tear down those lies, the D' then can have the advantage for years to come

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuEWBlChry4

For those who missed it... "Living in the Wasteland of the Free"

By Iris DeMent... The repugs will HATE this song...

Lyrics: http://www.absolutelyrics.com/lyrics/view/iris_dement/wasteland_of_the_free/

This song really describes how I have felt as an American as a young adult and still today.

After the elections are over, and while O will be the most popular time in his term---others can go over the points made by Pogo and Sturg this am-----give the public the facts, and put a nail on the reagan coffin finally...just saying

Pogo...
what matters is that once again the Republicans have manipulated the Democrats into being on the defensive on an issue.....

I am voting 100% Democratic this election.....

however..... watching the left give Joe the mythical plumber sooooo much power this morning is hilarious......

I really do hope the Dems win it all...... then I can't wait to sit back and watch the show......

Euro Tom,

Your gay? So am I. Just amazing! Who else is gay here? On second thought probably better not to know, or ask.

Why is it OK for MEN to voice their support for abortion, but when men voice their opposition to abortion we are immediately reminded that we are trying to tell women what they should do with their bodies? What about men who pressure their pregnant female partner into having an abortion? Or how many men are never made aware their female was pregnant and had an abortion? That occurs more times than you would think. Unpleasant question I know, but these are situations we face. You see I am not totally against abortion, there are legitimate reasons for abortions, but the way FOCA is currently written, abortions, anytime for any reason. If this is ever passed in its current form, this will be the closes we have ever come to legal infanticide.

renee, we agree on that. totally, completely. I wonder how Joe's little plumbing business is doing right about now - phone ringing off the hook, or victim of economic slowdown? Inquiring minds would like to know.

i'm not gay, only my boyfriend is... Wait, he says he is not gay, he only likes big bears... It's all convoluted...

Anyway.. share a pic. Ok just kidding.

Why is it OK for MEN to voice their support for abortion, but when men voice their opposition to abortion we are immediately reminded that we are trying to tell women what they should do with their bodies?
--Anselm

supporting legal abortion is not telling anyone anywhere what to do with their bodies.

opposing legal abortion IS telling women what they may do with their bodies.

C'mon, dude......think a bit before you post goofy points.
you coulda thought of that yourself, had you tried.......

Jamie,

Thanks for taking names.

372 - 166 (Gematrial equivalent of 666)

58% v 41 %

It is very fortunate for O and the D's that there is a financial mess (not that they wanted it) even small minded bigoted contractors that i know will (most) be voting for O. while talking to them they said the N word (one of them) several times, i won't just sit and listen, told him that if he really hated the N word, that he should not work for them, and take their $ called him a hypocrite, he left the grill, the others just laughed,

RebelliousRenee,

Your post of 9:58 AM. Nicely said.

Everyday I am discovering there is a little nest of feisty women here, who do not live and die, skip or jump to every little diatribe of the Left.

Thinking for yourself. Kind of brings a smile to my face.

sturgeone

Have you read the FOCA? If not you may want to become familiar with it.

ALL IN LOVE IS FAIR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEi0oFXrGdE

Belissimo !!!!!

Go CHER

Anselm......a woman's (any woman's ) uterus and what happens there is none of your business.

If you wish to stop abortions EDUCATE and PERSUADE.........it's not a matter for you or your republican friends to decide. It's not your affair.

Just as who marries whom is no one's business except the marriagees......no one's.

Off to practice. One day I might even become at this, or die broke trying.

sturgeone,
You really do need to read the contents of FOCA. It involves more than just abortions.

okie doke......I'll look into it.......unless you can splain it for me........

Breaking News -

McCain's shares plunge on Intrade :

http://www.intrade.com/

Hi Alicia,

I went through one of those discount DNS reg bizs and didn't research it cause I was in a hurry and a little buzzed :-)
Anyway I checked the "select all' button and they give you whats available. I ended up with j..t..p.bz & .biz for about 30 bucks.
I checked later and the best (.com) domain name has been in use for quite a while as has some of the other ones. So now I have a site name to locate on a server and put up a Pro-Obama message if i want to devote the time. Maybe someone will want to buy it for $5 lol.

Thread the needle om blistersyeahbutchannel

(Erase the Snark Week)

Snobs, Snark, and Stoopid -hand in glove
"Everyone but thee and me and I'm not sure about thee!"

are there not times, places and situations where hatred is called for? ( I guess a clinical definition of hate might be in order here........)

After a more than 10 year absence, I will be live on KAOS Olympia Community Radio to discuss an expat experience regarding the election. It will be on 5 November.... sometime in the morning 7 or 8 am Pacific Standard Time ... KAOS radio can be listened to at http://www.kaosradio.org. I am not sure yet what I will have to say except to share my experience as an expat in Europe and the reactions, positive and negative I have received from my host countries and customers.

Thinking back to the years of doing a radio show called AFTERNOON DELIGHT, I have to share this with you:

http://www.inspirationline.com/EZINE/12NOV2007.htm

This is such a beautiful song... I love it so much and have since my early days in KAOS when Eliza Gilkyson's album was first released on Gold Castle records .. gasp! vinyl! I actually played this song as an "intermission" while interviewing an activist who lost her baby to SIDS, I hope you like it! She sure did and I think it's one of the most spiritually uplifting songs I've heard. BTW, her father Terry Gilkyson wrote "The Bare Necessities" for The Jungle Book.

FOCA - summary

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN02593:@@@D&summ2=m&

Who is being forced to do anything under this act?

You have a right to bear arms, but no one forces you to own arms (weapons, guns, etc. - sorry, I could see it coming)

Andrew Sullivan has found the single most telling image from last night's debate -

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/face-of-the-d-9.html

jamie,
my prediction: too much hype on a sure win dampening turnout compounded with problems at polls, legal & technical, will make for a too close for comfort race.

obama/biden 290
mccain/palin 248

msnbc will jump the gun and call at 10:05 pm and be denounced by one and all until fox throws in the towel at 1:00 am

spread will be +1 obama/biden

I can see SNL opening with Joe the Plumber's butt crack ( Remember Dan Aykroyd ? ) in the frame as he works on Sarha Palin's toilet.

Dems add 8 Senate seats, including dole's. Dems also come close to overturning the minority leader and taking wicker's seat in MS. However, close only wins an asterisk. 23 seats in the House will turn over.

are there not times, places and situations where hatred is called for? ( I guess a clinical definition of hate might be in order here........)

I think that there is, very interesting question, and needs to be commented on by all willing------I am going to think about it for a little while, and if will try to do it as suggested(clinically )hate is an emotion, followed by thinking, or the other way around of evolution?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159812

Any time for any reason simply does not exist except in Republican brain washing. This is only true for the first trimester. There are limits on the second trimester and even more stringent ones on the third.

BTW, Third trimester are almost non existant and among those, the major reason tends to be the life of the mother or a non viable fetus. This is a dangerous procedure after the 27th week of gestation and one that no woman would enter into lightly just because she felt like it.

Also, "partial birth" is a made up term used by Republicans. It is a method among other methods used for this particularly difficult time in a pregnancy

You might want to brush up on the statistics before spouting the right wing propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Anselm--------all the women here are pretty feisty, not just a little nest full.

You asked ET if there are anymore happy(gay) people on this blog,
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Tony doesn't know that i know.

some past percentages influencing my pessimism:

jfk 49.7 nix 49.6
nix 43.4 hhh 43.7
jimmy 50.1 ford 48
shrub 47.9 gore 48.4
shrub 50.7 kerry 49.3

McCain should have used the opportunity of Shrub not showing up at the gooper ball in August to make the break.

McCain has no reason to be loyal to Shrub for any reason and I do not understand why McCain continued to support him.
That certainly makes me question his judgement.

I think he should have made a kitchen cabinet out of all the Republicans fired by Bush and run to the moderate center....but of course hindsight is always 20-20.

XRepub and PatD I have you recorded.

sturg..... the clinical definition of hate is probably as elusive as the clinical definition of pornography......

Anselm..... thanks....

Pogo..... I'm sure Joe's business is down just like mine is...... I just find it highly amusing that the Republicans always manage to leave a big pile of doggy poo on the Democrats doorstep...... and the Democrats always manage to step in it....... just once I'd like to see the Dems watch where they're putting their foot.... maybe when hell freezes over...... :0)

No, Miss Wasilla, the solutions are not "in the future." Our future depends on the solutions we act upon now.

corey - Your numbers may be a tad too optimistic, but I hope you get your birthday wish of an Obama/Biden win.

Solar and ET: I just know ONE of you guys will remember the name of that show that was so popular during the eighties. The right-wing redneck oriented show , and when the guy who hosted it had his gay brother on it, got eaten alive by his own audience. It so totally reminds me of the specifically Palin audience. John might be able to get away with standing up for Obama's honor, but I think Palin could'nt even if she wanted too.

Reb Ren......dammit......that's why I hate clinical definitions..........

Not that I'm defending her. Battle not with monsters etc.

A POISON TREE.

I was angry with my friend;
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

And I waterd it in fears,
Night & morning with my tears:
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.

And it grew both day and night.
Till it bore an apple bright.
And my foe beheld it shine,
And he knew that it was mine.

And into my garden stole,
When the night had veild the pole;
In the morning glad I see;
My foe outstretchd beneath the tree.
Blake

Sturg-----while clinical is difficult(impossible) it is still worth the time to discuss, do you mind if i give it a go? if not im going to do it anyway but keep it to myself, c i might be totally wrong and laughed at, but is worth the time.

solar.......certainment.........by all means, do, please......

Here's some other chappies on the subject:

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
Andre Gide (1869 - 1951)
We hate some persons because we do not know them; and we will not know them because we hate them.
Charles Caleb Colton (1780 - 1832)
If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.
Hermann Hesse (1877 - 1962)
Hate no one; hate their vices, not themselves.
J. G. C. Brainard
Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M. Nixon (1913 - 1994), in his White House farewell

This is a long article (and these are only the last couple of paragraphs)
but you feel like you know more about Obama when you're done..

Working for the Working- Class Vote
Obama: “I guess the point I’m making,” he went on, “is that there is an entire industry now, an entire apparatus, designed to perpetuate this cultural schism, and it’s powerful. People want to know that you’re fighting for them, that you get them. And I actually think I do. But you know, if people are just seeing me in sound bites, they’re not going to discover that. That’s why I say that some of that may have to happen after the election, when they get to know you.”

Hearing him say this a second time, it seemed to me a remarkable admission — if not a retreat from his driving vision, then at least a deferral. Normally, in political campaigns, you hope people get to know you and then decide to vote for you; Obama now believed that perhaps only the inverse was possible. Once, he might have thought that if he could only win a bunch of red states and pile up 350 electoral votes, he could obliterate the red-blue paralysis of the last decade and wield his mandate like a machete against the culture warriors in Washington. Now, it seemed, he understood that even a Reaganesque triumph wouldn’t suddenly erase the effect of 40 years of exploiting peoples’ darkest fears or ignoring their legitimate anxieties, the twisted and bipartisan legacy of a lost political generation......"
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/magazine/19obama-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

that should read ---im going to do it anyway

"sigh" I love Blake. He was one F-ed up beautiful mind.

We have had 30 years of class warfare, in which the wealthy strip-mined the middle class. The wealth has been "spread" upward.

Joe Klein

Thanks Sturg,.....for the start, will look at them, and then swing over to what evolution, and nuerology says, not that i will understand it all if any,,,,,,, love your poem gonna put it in my docs

I hate that aesthetic game of the eye and the mind, played by these connoisseurs, these mandarins who “appreciate” beauty. What is beauty, anyway? There’s no such thing. I never “appreciate,” any more than I “like.” I love or I hate.
ATTRIBUTION: Pablo Picasso (1881–1973), Spanish artist. quoted in Françoise Gilot and Carlton Lake, Life with Picasso, pt. 6 (1964).

There is no hate without fear. Hate is crystallized fear, fear’s dividend, fear objectivized. We hate what we fear and so where hate is, fear will be lurking. Thus we hate what threatens our person, our liberty, our privacy, our income, our popularity, our vanity and our dreams and our plans for ourselves. If we can isolate this element in what we hate we may be able to cease from hating. Analyse in this way the hatred of ideas or of the kind of people whom we have once loved and whose faces are preserved in Spirits of Anger. Hate is the consequence of fear; we fear something before we hate; the child who fears noises becomes the man who hates them.
ATTRIBUTION: Cyril Connolly (1903–1974), British critic. The Unquiet Grave, pt. 3, Harper (1944).

Rosie, I never watched it, but it sounds like Jeff Foxworthy anyway... Am I right?

Posted by: sturgeone | October 16, 2008 11:18 AM : "Anselm......a woman's (any woman's ) uterus and what happens there is none of your business."

This is a Big Government issue. To effectively enforce any anti-abortion law (particularly in the Blue states) mccain's Big Government would have to install meters in every uterus.

The genie escaped the bottle 35 years ago, and only a spiritual shift across the nation can stuff him back in again. Such a spiritual change cannot be achieved by the organizations that subordinated their missions to fund raising for the do-nothing (re abortion) republican party.

Naw! It was like Maury or Marty Something(Not Maury Povitch} It was real popular with the Rush crowd. no surprise,

Have any of the major networks reported the six degrees of separation for Joe the plumber and Keating or inquired about the supposition that he might have been a plant?

Married with Children?

no gay brother.......actor who played neighbor came out as being gay, I think.

Rosisethecat

Hello, sorry, I did not watch much tv in the 80's, between, work, sports, and sleep,and other things, not much time for the tube.

Lived much in motels thru the eighties.......saw a good bit of television.......lol

Think Jerry Springer meets Rush Limpbah. It was mid-eighties. God. I feel old now.

Jamie,

here is the scoop on Joe the Plumber.

http://tinyurl.com/bks6n

There is not hate without fear------yes Sturg

The fear (i tinks) is knowing who you are---not who your father is, or your mother etc,,,,,,but who your,,,just a little bit of cosmic dust,there for a galixie in itself,,,thank you just gave me my start.

TV

I know the info has been all over the net. My question was have any of the major newspapers, AP, TV channels etc reported the connection to Keating?

If he was a plant, who did the planting and did McCain know that it was an attempt to create a talking point against Obama?

Oh well, the whole point was that, the McCain camp(especially the Palin Pack), are in a position now that they can't be anything BUT negitive, much less scold any of their followers for being haters. Like last night with John's totally suck-up comments about being proud of everyone in his audience.

http://www.funnytimes.com/store/images/you_are_here.gif

43 -

I've noticed these last weeks that McCain can't move that number in the Gallup Daily. He bounces around it like he's chained to it.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111211/Gallup-Daily-Obama-49-McCain-43.aspx

You are really here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcTHBOjnUss

Morton Downey ? I don't remember a gay brother, but I only saw the show twice. I was forced the second time.

"Mama's Family" ?

Yes,

Morton's brother was gay and I thought died of AIDS.

I wonder why there hasn't been much chatter about McCain not knowing the difference between Downs and autism...if he's pushing the Palin/special needs thing, shouldn't he know the difference himself?

YAY! Morton Downy! That was him! Thank you, guys! And Bear, I work with special needs people and that whole downs/autism thing jumped out at me, too.

Hope that there's intelligent life elsewhere in the universe
Because there's bugger-all down here on earth......

lol

Thanks, Renee, not that I had anything to do with it. Buck and McGarver got the memo, by the way. Buck gave the Phillies much more props, and McGarver even said at one point, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, "There are a lot of players up for free agency after this season (pause), not the case for announcers, however...(nervous laughter from Buck)"

Joe the Plumber leaves a cherry bomb in McCain's toilet -

Wurzelbacher ... tied to Keating through in-laws

...... According to other court filings he has a lien against him that he has been fighting for over a year.

So who could reach out to him? Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/16/125334/33/37/632539

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obamas-iraq-plans-vindicated-as-us-agrees-to-pull-out-by-2011-962874.html

I know this may be taken the wrong way - but what the hell does "close relative" mean? Can't any of the cracker jack reporters actually find out and specify how this Wurzelbacher is realted to the other one?

In the words of a Chinese Zen master, "nothing is left to you at his moment but to have a good laugh" As James Broughton put it;

This is it , and i am it, and you are it , and so is that, and he is it, and she is it, and it is it, and that is that

Did I hear McCain say that he would allow returning servicemen to become teachers without certification?

If that's true, does he want to do the following:

1. Allow people with PTSD of other issues to be in a classroom with disrespectful children or deal with their parents? How many teachers would be arrested for beating kids?

2. If there is a problem of a lack of competent teachers, how would allowing people who aren't even trained for the job be better than those who are?

3. Isn't that an incentive to have servicemen leave early, just like the GI Bill he refused to support was?

Bear, if McMeanOldFart said that, he's just pandering to try and get more of the vote from our soldiers wh o face returning to unemployment. Spare him the details, please - they don't fit the pander.

Good article on Small biz, JTP, and who/number pays taxes

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm?postversion=2008101612

The Troops to Teacher programs already exists
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159728

as Flatus pointed out earlier.

Here. Troops to Teachers overview.

http://www.dantes.doded.mil/dantes_Web/troopstoteachers/Overview.asp

solar, thank you for the 1:05 post.
there's something about your posts that remind me of eric hoffer. here's a quote from wiki:

"....Hoffer drew confidence and inspiration from his modest roots and working-class surroundings, seeing in it vast human potential. In a letter to Margaret Anderson in 1941, he wrote:
My writing is done in railroad yards while waiting for a freight,
in the fields while waiting for a truck, and at noon after lunch.......
Hoffer was among the first to recognize the central importance of self-esteem to psychological well-being. While most recent writers focus on the benefits of a positive self-esteem, Hoffer focused on the consequences of a lack of self-esteem. Concerned about the rise of totalitarian governments, especially those of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, he tried to find the roots of these "madhouses" in human psychology. He postulated that fanaticism and self-righteousness are rooted in self-hatred, self-doubt, and insecurity. As he describes in The True Believer, he believed a passionate obsession with the outside world or with the private lives of other people is merely a craven attempt to compensate for a lack of meaning in one's own life."

Chloe -- Joe is NOT a plumber -- at least not a licensed plumber in Ohio. He's actually Joe the Construction Company Owner. Posted by: Divalicias | October 16, 2008 9:24 AM

As far as I know, he didn't call himself Joe the plumber. The media and everyone else did. If he was a plant, as some seem to think, then he's not a very good one so far. I can't find where hell even say who he's voting for. Maybe someone will weasel it out of him by night fall.

'He is Joe Wurzelbacher, an Ohio man looking to buy a plumbing business who came to symbolize the notion of "spreading the wealth" in Wednesday night's third and final presidential debate between Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain."

"Wurzelbacher declined to say which candidate would get his vote on Nov. 4.
"That's for me and a button to know," he said."
http://wstm.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=207907

How Will Sarah Palin Vaccinate Her Son Trig?
"For readers of the Age of Autism, this 4 month child is worth watching. Because trisomy 21 is not just the cause of Down's syndrome, it is also a genetic susceptibility factor for autism."
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/09/how-will-sarah.html

Barack Obama tells supporters not to get too 'cocky'
"Barack Obama warned Democrats today that any sign of “giddy” complacency would result in him being “spanked” in next month’s presidential election. '
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4957924.ece

edie adams
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-adams17-2008oct17,0,1526931.story

singing that's all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IL4tSg1x8

Barack doesn't know it's over? Even I know it's over!

"I'd like to thank all the Obama supporters for their generous contributions."

-Rupert Murdoch

Obama ad will push back Game 6 of World Series by 15 minutes
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3646198

Joe the Plumber doesn't have a plumbing license! KO is gonna have a field day with this!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber;_ylt=Asp0jwVIPqdZZY7azMPfrZWs0NUE

Patd

Eric Hffer--i don't know who he is but i like him already.
Central importance to self esteem------------you can't go into a coffesional, tell a priest your sins, say ten hail marys and all is forgiven (you know that you lied by not telling the whole truth--no one does) I experienced a great relief in my life once that i forgave myself, ( and there was a lot to forgive) looked in the mirror and did not lie to me, now me and i are ok, if you make your self happy (not in a selfish way) it's immposible be angry all the time, i have had some success( and great joy) in that i get a phone call from a cpl of young people that i helped to realize this,aaa,priest,religion,etc operate from the feelings of guilt,and in my estimation due to mostly failures,thanks----

Eric Hoffer,,,,that is

Blue, 538-0 is not my birthday wish, it's just a prediction.

Edie Adams has died.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_en_tv/obit_edie_adams;_ylt=AivWk4VPxXbWQeK_EolsZ21xFb8C

chloe, he's said he's a plumber and he voted in the repub primary and backed McCain. He ain't very coy.

At least when Obama "plays the race card" he does so that your first reactions isn't what a dumb freakin idiot like these people...

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html

Solar,
I've traveling on biz for a couple of days...Just read some comments on Joe the plumber /contarctor whatever. Aren't you a contractor? Most of the contracotrs that i know don't have extensive bank lines of credit so they rely alot on their working capital to pay salaries and fund job starts. I think Joe believes that its this working capital that will be taxed higher and I think he's right. I can tell you from experience that 250,000 is easy to fly through a relatively small project.

yeah, he'd been great to have a beer with.... here's more from wiki on him
"Hoffer was a young man when his father, a cabinetmaker, died. The cabinetmaker's union paid for the funeral and gave Hoffer a little over three hundred dollars. Sensing that warm Los Angeles was the best place for a poor man, Hoffer took a bus there in 1920. He spent the next ten years on Los Angeles' skid row, reading, occasionally writing, and working odd jobs. On one such job, selling oranges door-to-door, he discovered he was a natural salesman and could easily make good money. Uncomfortable with this discovery, he quit after one day.[4]

In 1931, he attempted suicide by drinking a solution of oxalic acid, but the attempt failed as he could not bring himself to swallow the poison.[citation needed] The experience gave him a new determination to live adventurously. It was then he left skid row and became a migrant worker. Following the harvests along the length of California, he collected library cards for each town near the fields where he worked, and living, by preference, “between the books and the brothels.” A seminal event for Hoffer occurred in the mountains where he had gone in search of gold. Snowed in for the winter, he read the Essays by Michel de Montaigne. Montaigne's book impressed Hoffer deeply, and he often made reference to its importance for him. He also developed a great respect for America's underclass, which, he declared, was “lumpy with talent.”

Hoffer was in San Francisco by 1941. He attempted to enlist in the Armed forces there in 1942 but was rejected because of a hernia[5]. Wanting to contribute to the war effort, he found ample opportunity as a longshoreman on the docks of The Embarcadero. It was there he felt at home and finally settled down. He continued reading voraciously and soon began to write while earning a living loading and unloading ships. He continued this work until he retired at age 65."

solar, sorry to paste so much, but i really liked him. here's the link that gives a run down on what he wrote
and what others thought of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer

Jax

The thing about being a small business owner, is that i don't talk about taxes that much, until it's time to do them, once every qtr, Pogo i think has it a little more accurate, i would like to pay taxes on $250k on a personal level, as a corp $250 would only let me build 1 and half hse, it's all argumentative? every thing is going thru the roof(no pun int.) i was just notified that concrete would go up 7.00 per yard, and another 5.00 for winter service, so Pogo is right in that we better get a good accountant to shelter,but-----------do away with the IRS guns for hire plus commission on what they can get on a bust.

chloe, he's said he's a plumber and he voted in the repub primary and backed McCain. He ain't very coy."
Posted by: pogo | October 16, 2008 3:56 PM

Pogo, truce. I can tell now you have some strong feelings about this. I should have dropped it.

I'm not supporting this guy, just thought it was silly (and funny) to see the candidates and media make such a big deal out of it. During the debate, we were mostly laughing about it. His political beliefs don't matter to me in the least. I'll say no more.

Corey
Thanks for the Edie Adams link she was wonderful...and I really loved Ernie Kovacks too.

Hey Big Spender!

oh come on Chloe, if Hillary had won the primary and this guy started his shit with her in the same way as he did with Obama, you'd be royally pissed, as would I. I don't care if McCain's surrogates want to put a troll like this up to try to shake up Obama. It's the fact that it's the same old repug standard of half-truths, and downright lies. My partner is a plumber and he said "Joe 'the Plumber'" is not a plumber if he has not had schooling and a diploma.

Chloe it is clear you HATE Obama; I understand because he is far from my first choice for the Dem nomination; I am still sad Hillary is not the nominee. Given that, I think Obama has run a good campaign and has shown himself to have the temperament, intellect and compassion to be the next POTUS... McCain loses on all three points.

Jax------sorry did not answer your question, yes a lot contractor;s rely on a job to job basis, and use working capital for payroll and taxes that is where they go wrong,but sometimes there is no other choice, some smart cpa's don't understand this,but-----i try to not borrow from one job(peter to pay paul) but now anything goes, forget the tax breaks that bush wants to give to corps. get some help to the small co's like yours and the working masses,it's such a f---n mess that you don't know where the $ went, we have been robbed while being awake,

The Belgian government is planning to raise taxes on gasoline/diesel again, arguing that the public will approve because the price of oil has dropped rapidly and they are in need of 1.8 billion euros to balance next year's budget. We do have a strong social sector here, a large commitment to social housing and assistance for those who are unemployed or under-employed, but raising the transport tax worries me. But my ex, a very conservative money saver, says that, under the circumstances, they have to do something to balance the books.

Oh well....

"Chloe it is clear you HATE Obama"

What a strange thing to say Tom.
I make very few assumptions about you because I hardly know you.

It turns out the Joe the plumber isn't even a licensed plumber! What's more, he's a close relative of Charles Keating's son-in-law!

Mac is ridiculous.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/the-vetting-of.html

I think that Chloe was trying say that(in principle) joe the potty mouth has the right to give his opinion as well as the next person, even while agreeing that he is what he cleans---a shit?

Chloe, it may be a bit strong of a statement, but ever since Hillary has lost the nomination, you've trumped up every possible positive statement about McCain and later Palin, or tried to debunk the negative ones and appear to enjoy all the ultra-paranoid conspiracy theorist websites that Gordo delights to post ad nauseum here. I am confident that if Hillary was the nominee and Gordo, or someone else, was posting the same crap, you'd be protesting as loud as the rest of us.

And you are right, I hardly know you and vice versa. But over time one can get a clearer picture of where the other person stands ... and it does appear that McCain is your guy.

You're confident of what you think Tom. But unfortunately you're wrong. Sorry if that disappoints you. But I have no trouble saying what I think and can do a much better job of it than you can. Thanks for wanting to help, but I'm afraid mind reading isn't your strong point.

Hi Bethyboo

Enjoying the lovely weather? I am surprised given the size of the Obama margins in Cal at how well the Sebastiani anti choice initiative is doing. Also I hear that prop 8 may pass -gak
I haven't seen anything really just gossip that the heavily Catholic Latino vote could be the problem for both those issues.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20099240,00.html

June 20, 1988 Vol. 29 No. 24 His Love for a Brother with AIDS Brings Morton Downey's Compassion Out of the Closet
By Jack Friedman, Vicki Balfour

By the way, with Morton always taking drags of his cigarettes even while on cam, he should/could be a poster child for why smoking is fricken deadly. He died of lung cancer....

Solar,
That's my main issue with BO's tax increase on those over 250,000. Mostly small businesses will get caught in that net. By his own admission he's relying on small business to bring in the jobs to get us out of this mess. I just don't see how he expects us to do both.
He says he's after the uber-rich but they have armies of tax attorneys and accountants that will get them out of most of this. We don't. I personally have a part time accountant that reviews my books once a quarter. It just seems like this plan is not well thought out.

Chloe, I'm not really interested in going back and forth on this. I see what I see...

As you said to Pogo, I say to you. "Truce".... everyone is entitled to their own opinions but as we put them out there we can also expect folks to respond. I just find it ironic that so many of us Hillary supporters were on the same page and when she didn't get the nomination, it appears that many have gone to Obama, and some have remained bitter (GORDO for one) even to the point of voting for the anti-Clinton, that being McInsane...

Besides divorcing Shrub, McCain did not appear a leader on the economic issues. He should have taken the risk of saying the original bailout was wrong and today Paulson is apologizing for the initial errors. No guts - no glory.

Hey Tom. I'm not really interested in going back and forth on this. I see what I see.... And what I see is a rather judgmental human being that wants to be treated fairly by others but doesn't seem to be able to do the same when he makes assumptions about others. You need to learn a little tolerances for others differences Tom, and not call them names because of them.

chloe - I'm just providing info that is readily available on Joe. I just think he's a repub who wanted to hit Obama with a gotcha. I don't have strong feelings about him. Just trying to keep things straight.

PoU, that's all over the internet. I'd say he's a plumber's helper. heheheh

Frankly, I agree with chloe to the extent that the candidates overused references to him - he was referenced 20 times by McCain and 6 by Obama. How many times was the war in Iraq or terrorism mentioned? Hint - fewer, much fewer.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159922

Small business pisses and moans all the time when there are changes in any way that could bring a bit of parity to the economic sphere. In Washington state we still had $2.85 minimum wage in 1984. I worked for a progressive organization then that sponsored an initiative that would make incremental increases in the minimum wage (modest I would say) but small businesses went on a rampage of how this was "the end" for them. Of course the predictions of doom and financial ruin never came to fruition.

One thing I would demand too would be an end to the restaurant gratuity system and have all wait staff and personnel making the same wages as anyone else with guaranteed benefits and health care.

pogo, didn't you see my post of apology?

Jax

Relax----you are in the train until the next stop, Obama will get the help he needs to see it your way, or it's going to be a very fast 4 years for him and all the rest,Im not very impressed with him, but you are not defending McPain or Bush, or Reagan r-u-------get the power away from the Baker's. Bushes, Cheney's and i think we have a chance

wotever Chloe... pot, kettle,black. Next ?

Hey, KGC - I just came back to post to you, and here you were...are.

The weather is great but a little hot. I just got back from
another trip to Strawberry, and it was great there, too - got really crisp esp at night, and found ice in a bowl of water left outside overnight! It even snowed one day - heavy flurries but it didn't stick. I love it!

I don't want to believe your news re the two props - I don't buy Sebastiani wine because of that creep but I guess it doesn't hurt him enough, huh? Really? 8 might pass????? I'm just appalled.

How dare people want to circumscribe others' rights when there is no benefit to them selves! How can it help people to keep other people from marrying? How can it hurt them to have gays marry? I mean, really.....

I just got an email from Woolsey explaining her votes on the baliout. It was well-said, I thought, and quite
substantial. I do like her.

Are you very involved in the local county politics here?

wotever Tom... pot, kettle,black. Next ?

I don't know why everybody is up in arms about Plumber Joe. It doesn't matter whether he's genuine or a plant or whatever. There is a flaw in that portion of Obama's plan. No Doubt . I wouldn't take it so personally. It's not like Obama or McCain thought these plans up themselves. Neither one of them knows crap about finance. Neither one has ever run anything. ET your 3 man shop is infinitley larger than anything these 2 have ever run. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

"Obama ad will push back Game 6 of World Series by 15 minutes
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3646198 "

Now, that's the kind of thing that rubs people the wrong way--smells of trying to buy an election--of saying my agenda is more important than your damned ballgame.

Well, enough of Joe for now.

The Dow, after early deep losses, closed up 401 pts at 8979. I don't have the stomach or the Maalox to be a trader.

Hi Bethyboo

Not very involved ..kind of in the hanging around category.
In my supervisorial district, I am supporting Rue Furch (I supported Tom Lynch in the primary ..you may remember him as manure man -dumped a load of manure on the SR City Hall steps when they were dumping sewage in the River)
I'm campaigning a bit for Q -the SMART Train.

Sebastiani is creep - I too try to avoid his wines and his sons too.

Fascinating article

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2008/10/faith-based_boycotts.html

McDonald's Yields to Anti-Gay Boycott
In the growing culture war battles over same-sex marriage, economic boycotts seem to be the weapon of choice.

Earlier this week, the conservative Christian American Family Association announced that it was calling off its five-month boycott of McDonald's after the fast-food giant ended it relationship with the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. AFA has led boycotts against Ford, Disney and Hallmark for similar reasons.

chloe, I did - and there was no need for you to apologize to me. I was just explaining where I was coming from with the Joe comments. It's all good :-)

Solar,
You're right. They'll be others though. I have been voting since 1980 and I can honestly say that each and every year I say to myself where do we get these bozo's. Is this really the best we can do for ourselves?
I tend to be socially middle of the road and very conservative fiscally. I'm a big self-responsbility buff and I can honestly say there has never been a party
that I felt comfortable with and the 2 we've got just keep getting further and further out there.

Well I am dropping out of this conversation... I feel like I'm in an episode of PeeWee's Playhouse saying "I Know You Are But What Am I?". Thank the gods that I have been outed as being very judgmental. C'est la vie.

Obama leads McCain in Virginia
(NEWPORT NEWS, VA) – With just under three weeks to go before Election Day, Senator Barack Obama leads Senator John McCain in Virginia by 6.0% among likely voters, 49.2% to 43.2%. Obama’s lead appears to be driven by voter concerns about the economy. Asked to name the top issue that they would like candidates to address between now and Election Day, just over six in ten likely voters say the economy. No other issue breaks double digits. These findings are from the Christopher Newport University Virginia Poll conducted October 11-14 of 500 likely voters.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/RCP_PDF/CNU_VirginiaPoll_101608.pdf

Taking the capital of the Confederacy just might be the sweetest prize of all.

Obama will never take Montgomery. LOL

It's all about symbolism and irony. Look away, look away, look away Dixie Land.

Wow. That makes two really really dumb decisions by people who ought to know better.

McDonald's has never been a favorite of mine - do you know if you ask for tomato on one of their burgers that doesn't come with tomato, they charge you .20 for a slice? Can you imagine? How effective could that boycott have been?

And Obama pushing back a World Series game? That puts question marks around his judgement all over again. That's worse than the Heidi game - hard to believe - incredibly stupid. He better hope it's over in 5 games. Maybe he thinks it will get him a bigger viewing audience - yeah, an angry one!

Still, my vote is his unless McCain goes for pro-choice justices. Hard, hard compromises.

Here's an interesting article from the Indiana Daily Student

Clinton’s biggest fans prepare to choose ‘between 2 evils’

It was just five months ago that graduate student Alicia Keebaugh was a raving Hillary Clinton supporter.

She spent hours making fliers, organizing volunteers and convincing voters during the primary season that Clinton not only had strong stances on the issues, but a plan to make them happen. But eventually it became clear that Clinton wouldn’t be on the ballot in November.

Now, Keebaugh plans to cast her vote for Republican nominee John McCain....

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=63506&comview=1

I think it sums up where the Hillary supporters have gone fairly well...

Not a lot of red results at RCP these days. Pity :-)

And what about North Carolina jax, explain to me how that's no longer southern?

Beth,
I'm with you...we're definitely calling OB out on his sports fan resume.....that's gotta be his beltway advisors....wow

EuroTom --------------------------

Conspiracy theorists often lead lonely lives, especially when their propaganda is proven to be just that.

Posted by: EuroTom Author Profile Page | October 16, 2008 9:51 AM
------------------------------------------------------------
Proven? How do you know? SoetorObama refuses to release documents that prove he meets the Constitutional requirements for POTUS. Why? Something to hide? I had not intended to get into this now (waiting for the judge in the Berg case to do something - been two weeks last Monday). ET, on this subject, you are low-information. Remember your question about COLBS? Your reaction to this is understandable. Most people, on hearing about the BC/COLB/citizenship/legal name questions just dismiss it all as tin-foil talk. It stops at that point for them, they never get into the details. He has a reason for withholding documents. I could go into the details, but why bother.

yes pogo, none is "not a lot"

"Chloe it is clear you HATE Obama; "

That's a bit much, Tom. I thought she was just questioning all the hoopla over Joe the Plumber or contractor wanting to buy a plumbing business or whatever he is. One thing about this silly season is that the slavering dogs have been unleashed all the way around. And as far as I can tell, they are equally smelly.

I thought we were not Red America or Blue America, but America....not Liberal Americans or Conservative Americans, but Americans. That sentiment is so 2004.

jax, Northern VA may not be southern, but Richmond and points south (forget the Hampton and Newpprt News areas - too many military folks there to stay very indigenous) are decidedly still southern. And hell, most of Williamsburg thinks it's still the 1700s.

You're right GORDO, you shouldn't bother, your time should be put to better use, like weaving baskets or some such.

........{scratching head}.......Obama didn't muscle his way to pushing back a world series game.....

The Obama campaign inquired about the time slot. The FOX Netowork, wanting the money inquired to the World Series and as far as I can see, they are fine with that.

So no one strong armed anyone. ;0)

Oh, there's some red there, but not in the national polls. I seem to recall someone here preaching about the value of state polls over national ones (ring any bells?), but then again, I do have CRS. I also have to leave - ttfn.

Still, my vote is his unless McCain goes for pro-choice justices. Hard, hard compromises.

Posted by: bethyboo | October 16, 2008 5:28 PM

Agreed ! But you know, over time, I started to like Obama more. During the primary I couldn't stand him, but he really has shown a very positive demeanor and attention to detail which will be a huge plus for leading our country. I have already sent my ballot in, and have voted for two Republicans, the office of the Lieutenant Governor and that of the Secretary of State (who has been very fair and non-partisan) during the Washington State Governor vote tally 4 years ago. He was vilified by other Repugs for not going all "Katherine Harris" against the Dems and Christine Gregoire. He stood for fairness and a very correct handling of the vote tallies, following with precision, the law as it relates to Washington State.

JaxTrader, interesting comment on the two parties. I still think the monopoly of the Repugs and the Demos is not a good thing. They are both capitalist parties and those that aren't are automatically disenfranchised. They do not get the financial resources that governments, media, and various stakeholders behind the two party system get.

I don't claim to be an expert on what is the purest form of democracy, but I am favorably impressed with "proportional representation" which would create seats on the basis of voter preferences. If, for example, the greens got 20% of the vote, they would have 20% representation in the various councils and legislatures...

besides, isn't Rupert Murdock on McCain's side? If it were a really bad deal for Murdock, the FOX Network would not have approced the deal.

pogo,
you're right...southern Va is still very southern.
I was just lightly saying that the northeast has been sliding down !-95 for some time

pats,

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159954

yup.

Patsi you are right... I went too snarky. I've held my tongue a long time and this evening something snapped...

Thanks for pointing it out to me :D

state polls are much more important, and they are all looking just the way they should. I would though be more comfortable seeing Ohio tick up a couple of points for Obama. But more and more it's beginning to look like Ohio is not going to be a game changer either way.

ET - I don't know what you mean about that article
showing "where the Hillary supporters have gone pretty well."

If you take it to mean that you see 'most' Hillary supporters as going for McCain, then you have a fight with me as well.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159967

That isn't how I read it... I think most supporters are going with Obama.

And on that happy note, it's time to leave this blog for an extended time. I got enough strife in real life and don't want to have it expanded from this realm as well.

Cheerio

"besides, isn't Rupert Murdock on McCain's side? If it were a really bad deal for Murdock, the FOX Network would not have approced the deal. "

Sheila -- I'm not sure who Murdoch supports other than himself. I've tried to figure him out over the years -- he launched Fox in hopes of grabbing the right wing audience, mainly to fill a void. I have the feeling that he has few real beliefs other than lining his pockets. Others in that crowd, Scaife, for example, are more broadly ideological.

Florida is already won for Obama patd. Payback for Katherine Harris.

I wish George Soros would buy a network! Damn that would drive the Hannity crowd insane! LOL

One thing about Murdoch that just kills me is how easily he uses the religious right when he needs them, and also puts the raunchiest stuff on his networks.

this is an example of what i meant earlier by "technical or legal" election problems rearing their ugly heads and ruining a landslide/clear mandate vote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/16/AR2008101600702.html?hpid=topnews

Thanks Patsi,

just pointing out that very same thing. All though I probably didn't detail it.

All the same, the Obama Campaign just requested the time slot to go with the rest of the Networks that had all ready approved it. SO FOX asked Wolrd Series Reps for permission to push the game back and no one had a hard time.

I agree with you on Murdock though. I don't think he cares too much about anyones ideology, but Money's ideology.

Chef Sheila - sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that Obama strong-armed or muscled his way into that time slot for his ad. He will get the blame for it, however, if it isn't changed because fans will think he COULD change it if he wanted to. Fox or MLB will not be seen as the villain altho it appears they should be. I also doubt even that would change votes.

When I first heard the story, I figured they'd fix it, and will be surprised if they don't. I was actually kinda laughing about it - how pissed those people will be when they've got that cold beer in one hand and a piece of pizza in another, and they sit down with gleeful anticipation, and....hey, wait a minute....

Patd--I see that you r back----try this, Dutch Philosopher of Portugese,Jewish,origins-------Baruch Espinosa,

I saw that once again, i have been hoggin the thread, and it looks like im looking for a pat on the back---im not,,,,did not see Jamie, and a cpl of other, my fault,so see you later

"I wish George Soros would buy a network!"

On that we agree. Soros is a fascinating cat.

" I still think the monopoly of the Repugs and the Demos is not a good thing. They are both capitalist parties"

Tom -- good point -- and I'm starting to think they are pretty bad at capitalism. They've sure screwed this system up....

solar, thanks i'll look him up. but was confused when you wrote
"....it looks like im looking for a pat on the back..."
how you wanted me to go about it~~~~~~

Patd

a pat on the back by others(compliments) i have been posting a lot today, just reflecting, and did not consider what it might look like to some.

"just reflecting, and did not consider what it might look like to some."

Your reflections are interesting, Solar, no matter how often they arrive....

G Man.

I going to risk my mental health a bit today.

"legal documents changing Obama’s name from Barry Soetoro to Barack Hussein Obama."

Lolo wasn't around until Obama was two or so, so where's the documents that provides for a legal name of Barry/Barack Soetoro?

Jamie already explained (logically ) his Jakarta school forms. Besides those aren't legal docs.

ET - if you're still around, you have no stress from me - all is copacetic.

Secret Service: 'Kill Him' Allegation During Palin Event Unfounded...

Rez I admire you risking your mental health.

Secret Service says "Kill him" allegation unfounded

http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakingnews/Secret_Service_says_Kill_him_allegation_unfounded_.html

Blunt: News of FBI's Investigation of ACORN a Welcome Development
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20081016.BX39734&show_article=1

About 200K Ohio voters have records discrepancies
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93R8IE00&show_article=1

Well, its a good thing Obama only represented Acorn 13 years ago with the justice Department.

His case for Acorn was to ensure that citizen of Illinios could register to vote, when they got their drivers license!!

A good thing there's no contact since then. ;0) Obama campaign has had their own Get out the vote campaign.

....And I certainly hope that most of these names are correct and proven so before November 4th. I'd hate to think of all those people disenfranchised if they're legit.

Ahh Chloe, I can always count on a little refreshing unvarnished logic when I read your comments.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159925

Rezdog ---------------

Was he legally adopted by Lolo Soetoro? Probably. You should research Indonesian law. They were very strict about these things.

Do you understand why the COLBs on the three web sites had to be altered?

What was the name on the first BC? Obama or Dunham?

If he doesn't have anything to hide -- let's see the documents.

RebelliousRenee,
Thanks for the laughs--
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159940

"Welcome to the World Series on Fox! It's a balmy 72 degrees here in Tampa, Florida; a great night for baseball. Before we get underway with the first pitch of the evening, a word from Big Brother..."

Very Strong YouTube.......wow....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IS0PJdE0Cs

Also powerful

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=PdJUCU1UH2w&rel=0&eurl=http%2525

Rock the Vote on Nov. 4th.

WWIII will NOT help the economy.

Some people have too much time on their hands...but it is funny.

http://www.palinaspresident.us/

forgot the instructions

Mouse over and click items in the room. Some have multiple features.

World War II ended the" Great Depression." A good war fought well is great for the economy.

"The New Deal helped reduce many harsh aspects of the Great Depression but it was World War II that made the real difference. As European nations went to war American factories began to make war goods to sell to nations like Britain. After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor over ten million American men went into the service in one way or another. This opened up a huge demand for workers to supply them and the Depression was over. After the war most of the rest of the world was in ruins and the American economy set the pace for the rest of the world.

The US government's reaction to its entry into W.W.II was to institute massive deficit spending, and the conscription of all able bodied young men for the war effort, thus creating a full-employment economy which was the immediate end to the Great Depression. A belief existed that another depression might occur upon the return of the young men to the labor force so a comprehensive veteran's benefit package was legislated. The logistics of the ensuing peace created a natural US trade advantage which allowed for the unfettered repayment of the war generated deficit. The liberal veteran's educational and housing benefit resulted in increased productivity and a construction boom. These forces combined to forestall any otherwise feared return to the depression. "

sock drawer

That analogy does not hold water when applied to a modern war against Iran or Russia.

Oil prices would go through the roof. And there has been no increased productivity from the two wars we currently have going.

The financial markets would tank even worse than they are now.

WASHINGTON -- Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Chairman Sheila Bair on Wednesday criticized the federal government for failing to take more aggressive steps to prevent Americans from losing their homes, highlighting a rift between her and other senior U.S. officials over terms of the $700 billion rescue package....

Her comments Wednesday came amid growing tensions with key figures in resolving the financial crisis, notably Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, according to people familiar with the matter.

"Why there's been such a political focus on making sure we're not unduly helping borrowers but then we're providing all this massive assistance at the institutional level, I don't understand it," she said. "It's been a frustration for me."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122411533644338623.html

Shrubian right up until the end. Completely incompetent.

Rez,

Lets just call it was it is.....GORDO isn't going to get any cooperation from Obama, because GORDO has not validated that he GORDO is a US citizen either.....How do we know for sure?

sock head

"Three years ago, as America was preparing to go to war in Iraq, there were few discussions of the likely costs. When Larry Lindsey, President Bush’s economic adviser, suggested that they might reach $200 billion, there was a quick response from the White House: that number was a gross overestimation. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz claimed that Iraq could “really finance its own reconstruction,” apparently both underestimating what was required and the debt burden facing the country. Lindsey went on to say that “The successful prosecution of the war would be good for the economy.”"

...

"These estimates, however, underestimate the War’s true costs to America by a wide margin. In this paper, we attempt to provide a range of estimates for what those costs have been, and are likely to be. Even taking a conservative approach, we have been surprised at how large they are. We can state, with some degree of confidence, that they exceed a trillion dollars."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11495.htm

Presumably President Obama's war in Afghanistan will be better managed.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-159966

Gordo, I realize that facts don't often impinge on your favorite delusion, but there wouldn't need to be a name change document for a minor. Born Barack Obama even if there was a legal adoption (which wouldn't have been necessary and might not exist) which led to the use of Soetero, there would be no problem in reverting to his birth name of Obama.

How does she know this he probably won't ask.... because my birth name was White, my Stepfather's name that I used was Kahl, I reverted back to White, I married and used my married name and then I reverted back to my birth name. At no time was there any requirement that I do anything of a legal nature to do any of that even though I have had birth certs, school records, driver's licenses, and passports issued under different names. I have now used my birth name again for almost 40 years and at no time has any branch of any form of government asked me to file, apply for, or prove anything.

How to Legally Change Your Name Without a Lawyer: The National Legal Name Change Kit (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Legally-Change-Your-Without-Lawyer/dp/093270445X

The steps involved in changing your name are:

Review the "Common Questions."
Review the instructions for completing and filing the court forms.
Complete and file the court forms.
Publish your plan to change your name in a newspaper.
Go to court and present your case to the judge.
http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=5117

Oh and just to complicate things for you, I could at any time request British citizenship and have it granted automatically even though my father born in Scotland was made a US citizen on his father's citizenship papers. Why? Because you cannot renounce someone's citizenship without their consent except for criminal or treasonous acts. While he became a US citizen at the age of seven, he still had to formally take an oath of allegiance as an adult when he joined the U.S. Army while his brother served as a British soldier in WW II before Pearl Harbor and then became a U.S. Soldier .....

Truth is always much, much stranger than any conspiracy could possibly be.

sock

That is a bit different than starting a new war - isn't it . . .

It is very easy to obtain a great deal of identification in a different name, but key legal documents are invariably tied back to your birth certificate or an equivalent document. Until you go through a legal name change that can be applied to your birth certificate, you cannot fully change your identification in the eyes of the law.

Whatever Warren
No one was talking about who started it . The discussion was about the value of a war economy. .

Not true. As long as there is no intent to defraud, you can call yourself anything you want. You cannot commit perjury, so under certain circumstances you can be asked to formalize a name change, but it simply isn't always required.

You can call yourself whatever you want...but you cannot get a passport unless it is the name on your birth certificate. The only way you can change that is a legal process.

Practicing law without a license is also illegal.

"I say probably not. I base my guess on a guess that the majority (50+) of men don't adopt step-children. I'll try and find stats later."

Don't know about Obama's step father or care...but I will say that every man in my family who married a woman with children adopted them if possible. The only situation where one didn't, it was because the absentee father wouldn't allow it.

But, Rez, you may be underestimating many men.

You will be pleased to know that my passport is in my birth name. Now as a minor, i did travel on an adult's passport under another name, but that was their problem not mine. :-)

Jamie ----------------------

The best evidence that he has something to hide is that he is hiding something. If he is not -- make all the documents public.

We have been through the name game before. What I'm saying is based on what the lawyers/researchers/investigators have found.

Forget about what name was on the first BC. When he was legally adopted (most likely), his original BC was sealed and a second BC was prepared. This BC had the name of Barry Soetoro. The COLB is a recent development in Hawaii. That is sent out to people when they need to prove date and place of birth for some reason. It only shows basic info. That's the way things are in Hawaii.

Berg has requested these:

1. A certified copy of Obama’s “vault” (original long version) birth certificate

2. Certified copies of all reissued and sealed birth certificates of Obama in the names:
BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, a/k/a :
BARRY SOETORO, a/k/a :
BARRY OBAMA, a/k/a :
BARACK DUNHAM, a/k/a :
BARRY DUNHAM

Patsi,

It was a hunch from my experiences. You got stats.

G Man sed:
"The best evidence that he has something to hide is that he is hiding something."

WTF?

"Forget about what name was on the first BC. When he was legally adopted (most likely), his original BC was sealed and a second BC was prepared. This BC had the name of Barry Soetoro."

Wild speculation in my opinion, not based in facts.

Vicky Iseman granted an interview to the National Journal
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/nj_20081018_8644.php

Shorter interview --"I did not have sex with that man."
The timing could not be worse. What was she thinking?
Makes me think she wanted to have sex with that man and he turned her down.

Gordo,

We've been over this same ground a half dozen times.
Let the courts/law deal with it. That's why we have them.

Everybody watching the charity event on CSpan. Obama's up here on PST

lol Yes, Did you know that from the steps of the Waldorf Astoria you can see theRussian Tea Room ?

Gordo

What I am trying to tell you is that if they do exist, they are none of your business, but most likely they don't exist and you can't prove something that didn't happen.
no matter how much you would like it to be true.

McCain was quite funny but Obama is being hilarious. I love the confession of fathering two African American children in wedlock.

Rez -- I understand you might think that -- and who knows, maybe you're right. But I just spent a week with my nephew who a year ago adopted his bride's two children, when they were 12 and 14. And what a wonderful family reunion we had -- great to welcome these two fabulous kids into our family.

By the way, my nephew -- the son of my sister -- was adopted at age 4 by my sister's second husband.

Patsi,

I think that's admirable for everyone involved. I have similiar but opposite anecdotes from my family. I don't know my relatives' reasoning. I know in one case my nephew's dad and step dad both did not want it. So it was mutual. My old BIL made all his support payments too.

It was a hunch.

And on Larry King, Bill Maher seems to be paying tribute to dysfunctional families....it occurs to me that on television -- and the internet -- opinions are being formed by dysfunctionals.

Isn't it interesting but I thought McCain was better at the dinner. Already heard the one about fathering two black children.

Rezdog ------------------

He had to alter the COLBs posted on the web sites because an authentic COLB would have the name on the reissued BC (after he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro). Even if he legally changed his name to Barack Hussein Obama, the COLB would have the name Barry Soertoro.
-----------------------------
Jamie --------------------

It's about the Constitution. Because of his Indonesian citizenship: he is either a naturalized citizen or an illegal alien (regardless of where he was born). Sure, that sounds unbelievable. I agree. But we need to look at his history. Berg has requested these documents:

A certified copy of Obama’s Certification of Citizenship

A certified copy of Obama’s Oath of Allegiance taken upon age of majority

"I think that's admirable for everyone involved."

Rez -- that's because the men in my family were raised by feminists. :):)

This campaign has allowed for an interesting study of psychology and sociology. You all have been very interesting/entertaining specimens also.

Gordo: "Because of his Indonesian citizenship"

Just because you say it 100 times doesn't make it true. You don't know that so why do you keep repeating it!

Acutally observing the interaction between the people here and the evolution of opinions and ideas has made this miserable campaign almost tolerable.

" You all have been very interesting/entertaining specimens also."

Could not agree more, ct -- there are interesting case studies right here.

I have often felt that this place on the internet was merely someone's experiment.......say for a doctoral thesis or somethingorother......lol

Heather was a real interesting person. I was getting pretty close to a diagnosis when she left. Damn. I miss her.

"Heather was a real interesting person. I was getting pretty close to a diagnosis when she left. Damn. I miss her."

And what about Karolena?

I read somewhere on the Net that some psychologist thinks that there is a 20% chance that we are just tokens in a big SIMS game. If so, I am a little disturbed with who/whatever has been programing my moves lately.

So, GORDO is still alive and kicking?!

McCain was great at the dinner.

Heather was hot!

This bit of satire from the Onion in Jan 2001.

"You better believe we're going to mix it up with somebody at some point during my administration," said Bush, who plans a 250 percent boost in military spending. "Unlike my predecessor, I am fully committed to putting soldiers in battle situations. Otherwise, what is the point of even having a military?"

http://www.theonion.com:80/content/node/28784

Tony

What the hell is gay,gay,gay, is this gay evolution? are you better than just a gay,or a gay gay ,?

Solar
Ha!! Not better than.. I suppose you could say I have evolved from gay to gay,gay and now I'm gay gay gay which to me means being totally comfortable in your way of life and loving every minute of it....Tony's world...

"McCain was great at the dinner."

Warren, it was his best appearance of the campaign. Mr Obama's was good as well. If he's going to wear white tie, he should at least get stuff that fits. And the traditional collar is traditional for a reason--tradition.

Mrs Clinton enjoyed herself immensely.

Tony---

said that on the fly, should have put a smiley on it, hope i did not offend.

Posted by: Patsi | October 16, 2008 5:51 PM :
"One thing about Murdoch that just kills me is how easily he uses the religious right when he needs them, and also puts the raunchiest stuff on his networks."

Absolutely right ! It's even worse with faux's off-broadcast business. murdoch's news corp is the biggest distributor of obscenity on the planet. faux family values, that's for sure.

Solar
Smiling...No offense taken,its nice to explain myself, it just reinforces to me how far I've come and how happy I am with my life so far.....except I sure miss my mom!!! I guess that's my sadness,my whole family except my sister and niece are gone....Hard......

Rezdog ------------

"Because of his Indonesian citizenship"

Might want to learn some things about Indonesian law and the schools.

Do you know about his 1981 trip to Pakistan? Think he used a US passport? Not likely.

Gordo,
No! I don't have to learn about the laws of another country. We have courts here in the US that sorts things out like your implying. Yeah I know he took a trip to Pakistan, and I don't with certainty whether or not he used a US passport. Nor do you.
Not that agree with every decision, let the courts decide these matters.

Rezdog ------------------

Indonesian laws matter in this case. Know why?

Know what he did in Pakistan?

How many different citizenships has he had at the same time? Guess. How many does he have now?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/10/mccains-bush-distancing-too-li.html#comment-160047

There was a science fiction short story that had some scientists joking about humanity being the experiment of some superior being involving telling jokes. The punchline, "what if we find out that was true?"

Nobody laughed.

GORDO

He is a citizen of the world!

It is about

time we have a President that represents one of the things that makes our Country great - Diversity.

THAT is why we are the great shining city on the hill.

You can't have true freedom - if all persons are not created equal.

Why don't you stop trying to tear Obama down - and appreciate the historic nature of this moment.

Gordo

Nobody but you cares even a little bit.

GORDO -- you kill me! You waste your time screaming abut a who-gives-a-shit birth certificate and never mention the FISA vote. If you want to gripe about Obama, gripe abut that.

You don't care about the Constitution?

Have you changed your feelings about the Declaration of Independence? Sure were plenty of nice things said on the 4th of July.

GORDO

The thing is that I never hear what you are FOR.

Only what you are against.

Lighten up dude...

warren ------------------

I'm FOR the Constitution.

Amen Brother.

Saw McCain on Letterman. His defense of Palin was an endorsement of Obama.

McCain said Palin is absolutely ready to lead and was his first pick because she inspires people and because she is from outside the beltway.

The Obama campaign should make a commercial out McCain's statements.

(So what gives with the three months before the Palin pick when all we heard was "not ready to lead").

good night all.