Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Doctrine

Repost - sorry.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Wall-Street.html

"Stocks are opening lower following an unexpected slowdown at cash registers last month"

UNEXPECTED DROP? The stimulus checks were all spent the two months before, unemployment was up and the economy is on the edge of recession. Are the people in the Commerce Department idiots? Oh, wait, it's the Bush Commerce Department. Never mind. Tralalala...

I think most people have to be prompted as to the Bush Doctrine.

In any case, she carefully and persistently articulated what our policy has traditionally been, and, IMO what it should continue to be--that we'll defend ourselves against imminent attack--no more Pearl Harbors. Lot of difference between that and Bush's Doctrine.

Then there's the Palin Doctrine...

Is Sarah Palin's rousing support from the right-wing electorate spilling over into Canada? Intrade's Political Prediction Markets on the upcoming Canadian Federal election would suggest so. The Conservative Party's chances in Canada took a dramatic upswing after the Palin announcement....

http://worldsofspike.blogspot.com

Craig, thank god you and some of the other commentators weren't beguiled by her. She looked like an idiot, and Gibson looked like he knew it and couldn't believe he had to explain it to her. The repug apologists who said she did fine answering the question sounded like bigger idiots than she did. God help us if that ticket is elected and she becomes pres upon JM's untimely (well not entirely) death in office. She is no more ready to be president than the man in the moon. Qualified perhaps (constitutionally speaking only), but ready, no damn way.

Craig, I just reread your post.

I know of no one, beyond those trying to establish a defense preparatory to a 'visit' to The Hague, that supports the Bush Doctrine.

Pogo, how would you have her answer the question (taking into consideration that she is in the same party as Mr Bush)?

flatus - she clearly had no idea what Gibson was asking her and when she figured out that he was talking about preemptive defensive military action (now there's a Lewis Carroll concept) she was mouthing the same Bushco talking points as disseminated by them during the leadup to the Iraq invasion and the attempted justification of it after the imminent threat bull$hit was dispelled. The only thing she left out was mobile biowarfare lab, aluminum tubes and yellowcake.

Flatus, I have to disagree. I'm no poli sci major or anything but as soon as I heard the question about the "Bush Doctrine" I thought of how the administration justified invading Iraq. As an ordinary person, I knew the term just because I've been paying attention. Has our potential VP been paying attention? Memorizing answers can only take her so far.

flatus, considering the dismal state of our intelligence operation - which exists even to today - until we have some confidence that intelligence is solid and is being conducted and reported by intelligence professionals who aren't pushing an administration agenda, advocating preemptive action is just nuts. I would have her say that - in a positive, rather than the negative way I said it. But actually, since she is apparently a neocon of the first order, I wouldn't have her tell me anything about defending the nation - that model doesn't work.

First use of the term "Bush Doctrine" was by Krauthammer

The first usage of the term to refer to the policies of George W. Bush may have been when conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer used the term in February 2001 to refer to the president's unilateral approach to national missile defense.

Yeah Flatus,

I was shocked that when I heard her being asked the question, her first response was huh?

Here is an interesting take from Howard Kurtz...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/12/AR2008091201086.html

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/no-rest-for-911-politics.html#comment-143837

Thanks to Sturgeone, running around, and didn' notice thread had changed.

I see she even backpeddled from her claims about climate change and people think she should have ducked the Israel question...I wonder if she really wants to be a cowgirl in the diplomatic rodeo?

In case you were wondering who the biggest beneficiary of the Fannie/Freddie Bailout is, it's not the average American citizen...

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/TheEconomyDyn.aspx?cp-documentid=10250190

Actually, Pogo, it's not nuts.

Intelligence is always imperfect--we realize it and our potential adversaries realize it. And, uncertainty makes any action that might appear extremely threatening to us very unwise. So, uncertainty is our friend. That's why we never reveal sources and methods and the extent of our knowledge.

Our policy of massive retaliation is what carried us safely through the Cold War. As the SAC tagline stated, "Peace is our Profession." It worked.

And the corollary to that policy was the inherent right of self-defense, which Mr Bush reformulated in a way that should live to our indelible shame, is something that should be made as clear and simple as possible. To wit, just as she stated it. IMO, she stated it just as the Democratic candidate should.

Solarcrete,

You're a home builder? Where are you out of?

Are you going for Leed ratings on your home or just energystar?

Now Gibson is a journalist?

http://www.progressive.org/mag_mc041608c

In retrospect, maybe we should be blaming Canada...

Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
For...
The smut we must stop
The trash we must bash
The Laughter and fun
Must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc0JveFySB4

I do have some empathy for Ms. Palin...

Craig -- That sounded a bit like a clueless student in a college tutorial trying to trick the professor into suggesting the answer. Gibson did not let her off the hook, and Palin's answer was off point."

I had exactly the same reaction when, as part of my oral comprehensive exams, a professor asked me a question for which I was clueless...

Apparently the collection plate was a little light at this church...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26673009/

Palin clearly has no idea what she's talking about. Despite Craig's rosy description above, this interview was a disaster. The Bush doctrine is *the* major piece of Bush's failed foreign policy legacy. She needed to hit the foreign policy questions out of the ballpark - instead she got beaned.

And by the way, why isn't anyone discussing her totally out-to-lunch response to national security? Her "energy is all that matters" answer was not only deeply troubling in terms of its logical connection to foreign affairs and domestic security, but it's been a line used by Mac a couple times recently. Dubious expertise on energy (which, I suppose, we can only interpret as the pipeline she oversold to the media and her noxious "drill, baby, drill" mantra) in no way negates an utter lack of credible knowledge on foreign affairs and war. Anyway, it's a weird rhetorical strategy, and I'm surprised no one is discussing it.

Finally, just imagine if this had been Obama's VP. The press would have crucified him/her. The media is still so gun shy about Palin that they refuse to call a spade a spade. If a democrat had been up there are not known out to define Clintonomics (the comparison here would be that this is Bill's legacy doctrine), he/she would be dead by the noon edition of most papers. Well, it's up to Americans. I think the choice is pretty clear. The problem is that logic went out the window a long time ago in this race....

flatus, we disagree on the effectiveness of defense doctrines that have resulted in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. And with all due respect, adopting such a posture when you are aware of massive deficiencies in the information you base decisions to militarily attack other countries is indeed nuts.

KC, I never called Gibson a journalist - this might have just been one of those blind pig/truffle moments.

Well she has good company, it seems the use of "bush doctrine" is not as clear cut as Gibson would like. As David Broder pointed out it is also not the most common term used to describe his definition.

I did a search of the NYT for the last year and a half. I only got 15 hits. Not very many so It would seem Broder has a point. Also, many of them seemed to be opinion pieces so maybe this term is used more by the talking heads class and not regular media.

Also a quarter of them did not use Gibson definition.
In cluding people such as Matt Bai and Lincoln Chafee

Here they are:

"Bush doctrine that democratization of the Middle East starts with the defeat of terrorism"

"the Bush doctrine of forcibly spreading democracy", Matt Bai

"not the ''go it alone'' approach of the Bush doctrine", Lincoln Chafee

"universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.'' That belief was an underpinning of the Bush doctrine."

A great 2007 article one the war on terror by Susan Powers. That does give one hope for Obama. BTW she also appears to be using a more expansive definition of Bush doctrine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/books/review/Power-t.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1&sq

Jack

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/business/economy/13econ.html?hp

“I think the consumer is the weak link in the economy right now,” said Bruce Bittle, chief investment strategist at Robert W. Baird & Company. “They’re heavily in debt, overbought, and obviously with the housing situation, they’re under financial stress in terms of their balance sheets.”

When your economy is based on consumption, that's a pretty important weak link dontchathink?

Jack: There's no excuse for a potential president-in-the-wings not to know what the Bush doctrine is, no matter how the media might spin this. Trust me, it's a common term.

It looks like Washington Mutual will be next on the bail out trail....

Bear
I mentioned the Chinese when we were talking about this the other day since I saw an article pointing out the Chinese are the major bond holders for Freddie/Fannie...got to keep those credit lines open.

Our haphazard welfare state creates some jarring realizations.

It makes no difference if I get top dollar for my FIL's house. The faster I get rid of his assets the quicker Medicaid picks up the bill. Trying to get the house in sellable order is just more time and trouble for me and in the long run gains nothing for him.

Kinda hard for me to get my head wrapped around it.

Jack

jack, those differing descriptions of the Bush doctrine are all consistent, and are all based on different things Dumya and Bushco mouthpieces have said at different times - they just aren't complete individually. Anyone who has paid any attention to the actions of the government since 9/11 should be able to give their own description of the Bush doctrine, but the basic outlines of the Bush doctrine aren't all that unknown or arcane. The only (mall) pass I'd give to Palin is that she may not have known that Charlie was referring specifically to the Bush approach to national security since the handlers apparently didn't refer to that as the Bush Doctrine, and I didn't see what the questions leading up to the Bush Doctrine question were, so I can't say whether in context she should have been able to figure out what he was asking about. I describe the Bush Doctrine a little differently - (a) Lie to the people about the extent of the threats that exist, (b) draw false connections between those who pose threats and those we consider enemies, (c) repeat it over and over to scare the sh*t out of the people then (d) attack whoever the hell you want and justify it with (a) & (b).

PU

Tell that to lincoln chafee

Jack

Fresh blood for the vampire

A beady-eyed McCain gets a boost from the charismatic Sarah Palin, a powerful new feminist -- yes, feminist! -- force.

By Camille Paglia
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/

Kind of like claiming there is only your theory of feminism

jack, that is exactly right about Medicare drawdown wrt the house. It is IMHO one of the biggest faults in that system. We're gambling some until we hit retirement and I hit Medicare eligibility, but at that point - well 2 years before that - we plan to buy our retirement home then gift it to LP, reserving a life estate for ourselves. But your comment about our haphazard welfare state certainly has some merit. As a lawyer who was GC for a hospital, the crazyquilt nature of our Medicare/Medicaid system drove me nuts - which is why I left there ... nuts.

Just great:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5786925

Interesting article, KC - can't say I've read Camille Paglia before, although I may have.

Pogo

Your as bad as Sarah Palin.
Don't you know that "Bush Doctrine " only applies to preemptive attacks?

All that other stuff is some other doctrine, maybe the

"clusterf*ck doctrine of Republican stability"
;-)

Jack

Pogo

Camille Paglia...gag me with a spoon..the Tammy Bruce of the women's movement. The selfloathing segment of the movement.

Biden to release financial records.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/washington/AP-Biden-Finances.html

I'd like to know how to get his federal tax rate.

jack, that's just how the "preemptive attack" policy is implemented and justified. I's posit that the Bush doctrine IS the "clusterf*ck doctrine of Republican stability"

;~/

KC, I'm not well read in feminist authors. I don't doubt your take on her.

KGC,

Wamu should be left to fail. Their customer service sucks and their business and lending practices are far worse.

Roger Simon (another one who should be slapped upside the head) said the only problem with Palin's interview was she hadn't learned DC speak..."nothing is on or off the table."
instead "she tried to answer the questions."

There are ads calling her the new Reagan...it looks like she has the teflon part.

Oops, seems McCain and Sarah don't agree on her qualifications.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/12/mccain-last-year-mayors-a_n_125944.html

Damn, I hate it when they record these things. LOL

Bear
I have a friend who is an executive with WaMu and she has a buyout clause in her contract. She is hoping for a buyout. I've read Wells Fargo is looking at them.

Hey, one of you lurkers owes me some money.
Yesterday, I said the best way to separate McCain from Palin is to question his manhood.

What do the Obama folks do today?

They have Tim Kaine on the Morning Joe saying this.

"John McCain is not going to win this election by hiding behind Sarah Palin."
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/9/12/73024/8380

come on, time to pay up.

Jack

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143825

Flatus,

There is a vast difference between Pearl Harbor and Iraq. The planes coming in to bomb Pearl Harbor were clearly marked as the military of another nation. It may have been a sneak attack, but had been a long time in the planning to the extent that the US was in the process of considering where one might occur.

9/11 was perpetrated by unaligned terrorists, and just as with all terrorist activities was a matter for the FBI not the US Army.

Iraq was a sovereign nation that had not in any way made an attempt to attack the US. The one time they attacked an ally we sent their army back inside the border and put up blockades north and south to make sure they didn't do it again. Shock and Awe was a criminal act against another nation and should have put Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al behind bars a long time ago.

Katherine,

I'm surprised to hear Wells is looking at WaMu because while they may have synergy on the banking side of things, Wells openly competes and belittles the Wamu lending side, especially the Option Arm side of the business...I wonder how well they would marry...

I always thought the Bush Doctrine was: muddle through.

Wow,

Looks like the Obama campaign will have McCain in Depends soon...lol

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1185304443/bctid1789003018

I think most people have to be prompted as to the Bush Doctrine.

Posted by: Flatus | September 12, 2008 10:08 AM

Yes but "most people" aren't running for the vice-presidency and being absolutely unaware of the policies her own President's party has implemented during his 8 years of horrors. This is clearly a prime example of Sarah not having a CLUE about what has really been going on in Washington and the Executive Branch and the rights and wrongs thereof.

Sad to say, but it seems the only federal issue she's aware of is the bridge to nowhere... which is where her candidacy is going to end up.

Bear

My computer is just giving me a blank screen, on both of those links, Give me a clue what is it.

Jack

In case you were wondering who the biggest beneficiary of the Fannie/Freddie Bailout is, it's not the average American citizen...

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/TheEconomyDyn.aspx?cp-documentid=10250190

Posted by: Bear | September 12, 2008 10:35 AM

Wow Bear, I don't think even FryDaddy would like THAT sort of corporate welfare!!!

Jack,

They are the 2 new ads from the Obama campaign...good stuff...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/12/obama-ad-goes-after-mccai_n_125896.html

I suppose partisans see the Palin interview with Charlie Gibson through their own blue or red tinted glasses. I thought the interview was horrible for her! Her voice was shaking, and she clearly had little idea what she was talking about (and not just on the Bush doctrine). I was insulted by McCain's choice of her two weeks ago, and I remain insulted. Pogo's right...this woman is in no way ready for what she's been thrust into. As a responsible voter, I expect better of my so-called leaders!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143882

Between his wife's money and his VP's speaking ability, McCain could probably vacation for the next 60 days and get more votes than he will by campaigning.

Bear
The Wells stuff could just pundit musings

"Still, a shotgun wedding is a possibility. If the S&L's situation deteriorates, regulators "could encourage a merger with another institution, a purchase and assumption transaction, sales of branches, further injections from private equity or some other public-private partnership," wrote CreditSights Inc. analyst David Hendler.

Who are potential suitors? JPMorgan Chase, with $1.7 trillion in assets, is well positioned to absorb WaMu's $300 billion. While Wells Fargo, which has remained relatively above the mortgage fray, seems like a suitable banking partner, its $600 billion in assets might make it too small. "That would be a 50 percent increase (in size) for Wells; that's a pretty big deal," Peters said.

One plus for a purchaser: Washington Mutual's retail banking business. "Their core business is making money, which will help offset losses from loans in the future," Peters said. "
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/11/BUS912RO1U.DTL&hw=Washington+Mutual&sn=002&sc=587

Jamie...

Palin's speaking abilities are best in front of a teleprompter and with a prepared speech. Sound familiar, in terms of what many of you have been talking about in the past few months? I was stunned that her voice was so shaky when trying to appear qualified during her interview with Charlie Gibson. I'm looking forward to seeing more of it tonight!

.this woman is in no way ready for what she's been thrust into. As a responsible voter, I expect better of my so-called leaders!

Electing George W Bush president twice meant anyone can be president. Lots of people were happy to vote for Bush and did not question his experience.

KGC

There would be less resistence to a Wells Fargo takeover on the part of depositors and local business interests. It's purely psychological, but WF is considered to be a "Western" bank as is WaMu, while Chase is one of those "East Coast" invaders.

May not be particularly true or make economic sense, but it is a reality to consider.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143854

Pogo very interesting post. I remember several economists warning that the revised code for bankruptcies would end up costing more because the ability to wipe off debt has been so tightened that people drowning in it are forced to turn most of their income over to the creditors. Not saying that people should just walk away from debt, but in an unequal economy where people grow up believing that there really is something known as "the American Dream" where every generation can do better than the one before, people have wants that really are almost insatiable. Then Visa/Mastercard/Discover and a plethora of other dubious credit card companies send out these fancy letters that promise "you can have it all"... "Why wait, the Dream is Now"... "low monthly payments" (they don't tell you it is with extremely high interest rates guaranteed to keep you indebted for YEARS), among other solicitations. People want to feel they are doing better and they turn to credit thinking this is the promise of a better life. Most of us have not been prepared for the day of reckoning when all the bills are due and there's no more money laying around.

In the past people could discharge a large percentage of debt (remember the credit card companies are also culpable through their aggressive solicitations and special offers) and recover more easily that way. Now people CAN'T buy like before. Everyone is LOSING. It's a hard life lesson that is worth understanding, but many are totally unprepared for the albatross created jointly by themselves and the mega-interest rated credit companies and the reality of paying the piper.

I haven't proof read this. I hope it makes sense.

Ah, anon...What a dismal reminder....

I will be very curious to see what shakes out on the banking front...

Jamie, were I a share holder, my biggest concern with a takeover is someone who can stop the bleeding.

Wamu does very well on the retail banking but their mortgage lending practices is what's killed their value. Being based in what has always been an inflated real estate market on the west coast, WaMu was a pioneer in the Option Arm Market. They have such a huge exposure to those loans and even if they are performing, when the market stabilizes, those will be the first mortgages to be refinanced. From an investor stand point, you would pay less for that debt since the servicing returns won't deliver long term.

Wells has stayed out of the mortgage losses because they are conservative in their mortgage lending. While they did have sub prime lending, the pricing was horrendous compared to other lenders since they were pricing in for the risk.

My preference is to see WaMu fail because I was never a fan of them, or Long Beach Mortgage, whom they bought I think in 2004.

I wouldn't be shocked if the market was waiting for them to fail so they can swoop in and buy their assets out of receivership.

"9/11 was perpetrated by unaligned terrorists, and just as with all terrorist activities was a matter for the FBI not the US Army." Jamie@11:46

I would agree if the terrorists were a homegrown product without foreign ties. In this case, the terrorists were part of a much larger organization (Oama's bunch) being hosted by a foreign country (Afghanistan) openly supported by that country's leadership, (the Taliban).

Over the decades we've been clear that if you are the sovereign of a country that harbors terrorists who have attacked the United States, then you place yourself and your country in peril. In effect, by harboring Osama, Afghanistan adopted a policy of belligerency against the United States.

We responded appropriately.

Iraq is a completely different story; I've certainly given no reason for you, or anyone, to surmise that I ever supported the Bush adventure into that country.

I absolutely support what our forces did in response to Japans attack on the United States. And, I ask that the Japanese government provide any and all information on the fate of Stinky's sister and the other so-called 'comfort women'.

Craig- "...the opportunity to make permanent this unprecedented broadening of our policy for deploying military power."

You and who's army???

Um, does the word "draft" need to be brought up, again? Just remember, go after Bush/McCain not McCain/Scary.

Let her lack of preparedness speak for itself.

Craig - A+ for today to Smoke out the position people stand - clearly the evaluation and response to Charlie Gibson with SP is strongly effected by the bias of the viewer.

What is also clear is the BHO supporters continue to cling to the hate of Bush and have allowed this to have an open mind and miss many of the facts

The Iraq questions - Is this Ground Hog day?

SP - stated that Iraq was mis managed !

Flatus

While most of the world is well aware of what was done to others by Nazi Germany, there are still to few familiar with many of the horrors suffered by those who came under Japanese influence. I doubt that many of the "comfort women" are still alive by the ones that are deserve some form of compensation and those whose whereabouts are unknown deserve to have that information given to their surviving families.

The only qualm I ever had about Afghanistan is that we did not take the time to accumulate the world wide support for our actions. We were the ones who armed the Taliban against Russia. Betweenthe shock of 9/11 and the residual good will that still existed among some of the Tribal leaders, a little less "shoot first ask questions later" might have been in order.

As it is, we destabilized the whole area and made things much worse for ourselves and the world in what a friend used to refer to as "The Icky Stans",

How she creates fear fear fear in the supporters of BHO !!!
Fact is Middle America will see her interview in a positive light which is why BHO and Co is trying so hard to put the negative spin already. Fear

Also BHO supporters have BLOCKED an open mind because of their hate for Bush.
Please allow this correction to my prior post

Pong

"BHO supporters continue to cling to the hate of Bush"

What hatred. I think he should have a fair war crimes trial and will be willing to live with the verdict.

or whose (sigh)

Brain - MSNBC and CNN are not credible as sources as their bias ratings are to high - GE has not finished the house cleaning job - NBC is on the edge

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/12/terror/main4443168.shtml

U.S. Hits Pakistan Again, Tension Mounts
At Least 12 Reported Killed; Diplomats Warn Rift Between Washington, Islamabad Dangerous

The strike came as senior European and Arab diplomats warned that the widening rift between Pakistan's leadership and Washington over the sharp increase in American military activity on Pakistani soil could undermine counter-terrorism efforts.

James Carvel was actually pretty fair this morning. Maybe a factor that he is a HRC supporter, Knows not to attack SP, Maybe in his heart of hearts is not a BHO supporter but will be dutiful

Pong

"BHO supporters continue to cling to the hate of Bush"

What hatred. I think he should have a fair war crimes trial and will be willing to live with the verdict.

Posted by: Jamie | September 12, 2008 12:46 PM

I second that.....I don't hate him or Cheney. They are not worth it. But I AM looking forward to some Justice. I am hoping that its just a matter of time before Justice hunters pick these two up when they've left the borders of the US. Then transport their persons to the Haag.

Let the world judge.

But Hate? Not worth our time.

ping - Not fear, just complete disdain.

Hil'ry had just as well start campaiging for BO. It's the only chance he has to win...and if he doesn't win, she will be going up against Annie Oakley in 2012. I don't see a scenario where Hil'ry will ever get to the WH now. If she helps Obama & he wins (I'm still doubtful), at least she can keep the GOP out.

Will Ike visit Crawford Ranch?

I'm not panicking. Gov. Palin did seem out of her element in this interview, almost as much as President Bush on those occasions when he's forced to deviate from his prepared statements and talking points.

No wonder her handlers have shielded her from the press, and will continue to do so -- Hannity and Fox don't count as "the press" -- until her debate with Biden.

That, and, well...

...Doesn't she look tired to you?

Is Palin following Ahhhnold's playbook

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/09/MN5H12R1KT.DTL

Ping Pong,

I don't have hatred for President Bush...I have pity for him. He reminds me of the guy in West Virgina who won $200 million in Powerball, then got robbed, had a niece die at his house and ended up in jail because he couldn't handle his wealth.

Bush was given such a huge opportunity and even though I didn't vote for him, I was hopeful that he would accomplish something.

All I have ever wanted from my leaders is the air of competence and she doesn't even come close to reaching the low bar our current President has established.

People want to say she has more experience than Obama, at least Obama has the intellectual curiosity to learn about the issues we face. She clearly hasn't

Do I fear her, sure I do because I'm scared shitless to think what happens should she become President in the near future.

Just love the headline. Now they will says the media is picking on her instead of being sexist toward her...and, again, it is about her. Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aQZCcugKlf5k&refer=home

Headline from 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/10/pakistan.nuclear/

Sources: U.S. assessing Pakistan nukes if Musharraf falls

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. military intelligence officials are urgently assessing how secure Pakistan's nuclear weapons would be in the event President Gen. Pervez Musharraf were replaced as the nation's leader, CNN has learned.

Gibson was fair

Gov Palin did get across her CORE VALUES and one can understand her positions. This will play well with Middle America.

End result was positive. (which again is why so many BHO supporters are jumping on it to drive the spin- or smoked out - sorry craig...)

McCain-Palin are not doing as bad evidently as everyone on Obama team would like us to think. Last week the intrade had Obama up by +13 points. Today intrade stands as McCain +7. That is 20 points up for McCain in one week. Yesterday he was up + 3. McCain keeps rising and BHO keeps falling.
This is per information from RCP..

julie

Politics of Utopia...
What planet are you on?
Energy (derived at this point from fossil fuels) is indeed a significant issue related to National Security.
This is the life blood of our infrastructure. It has had the greatest impact on our day to day life.

Gov Palin is right on track!
The plan of McCain and Palin is developing as the best one for this country. BHO is making some changes and has imporved based on what you can derive.

Bear,
Good points - I would say give her a little more time to see where the core values bring out.
Fact is your statements are mine except put BHO in the place of Gov Palin, At least with Palin I believe we will see genuine values that for me match.
BHO - depends on the day and the audience

Toast

To put a President in office whose principal focus is still outward toward an assinine, phony war on terror rather than inward toward Americans as a whole where the need is greatest and to have that person backed up by a religious idealogue with equally gung ho jingoistic attitudes strikes me as the height of incomprehensibility.

Posted by: Jamie

Jamie,

Since my business is within 2 miles of ground zero it does carry with it greater personal impact into matters of security, and I know it has played deeply in Hillary's more muscular approach to foreign policy. So with agreeable civility we can disagree...

The last part of your post having the POTUS "backed up by a religious idealogue" confuses me? Since I am "irreligious" this issue touches upon my sensibilities to say the least, and I see it quite differently. First we must compare BO to McC, with McC being reserved on religion who treats it as a private matter. Then there is Obama broadcasting he's a Christian every chance he gets, promising to expand Faith Based Initiatives which I oppose. Which brings us to Biden who is thoughtful and a great all around chap, leading us finally to the moose slayer Palin.

Yesterday Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler sharply attacked Sarah Palin then former Sen. Lincoln Chafee added to that sorry mix. I strongly believe in the separation of C and S, and that Palin's personal, cultural views need not conform to my own. I am unaware of Sarah inculcating her "personal" beliefs into her public duties, therefore these attacks were reprehensible and meanly sown.

Moreover I am impressed by Sarah Palin's courage under fire, her grace and intelligence, and I will not deny her the "equity" so lacking in the treatment of Hillary.

Jamie, I understand your views on the war and fully respect them.

PUMA/Clintons4McCain

regards
toast

Bill Clinton

http://www.aolrewind.com/?feature=171817&ncid=aolnws00150000000002&icid=100214839x1209078637x1200558658

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-35449120080912?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

Any U.S. blunder in Pakistan could aid al Qaeda cause

"Are these the kind of actions that Bush thinks will help his candidate in the election?" Zehra asked. "Because otherwise it is merely expanding the parameters of failure of U.S. policy from Iraq to Afghanistan and now here," said Zehra.

"I am unaware of Sarah inculcating her "personal" beliefs into her public duties, therefore these attacks were reprehensible and meanly sown. "

Opposes Choice even in the case of rape and incest. Wants to control public reading material. Believes current war is God's will. Doesn't practice what she preaches (well except for her own shotgun marriage rather than aborting the son now off to Iraq), but as an adult is willing to use power vindictively as evidenced by Troopergate and financial tangle with State of Alaska

You know,

I respect the hockey mom in her. I respect her religious views, but I don't hear depth in her knowlege and I don't feel comfortable with someone so green in the second chair undergoing a cram session in this era of crisis.....

Sarah Palin is not ready for prime time and will not be ready for a long time. But when she is ready, I would probably vote for her,.

Not this time. Not with everything there is to lose.

So Sarah Palin thinks the USA should consider going to war with Russia. Russia has a large army, a nuclear stockpile, and a long history of defending itself AT ANY COST.

But I guess these FACTS don't matter to Sarah Palin - conservative "Christian" ideologues like herself and President Bush are always right. God is on their side.

Yeah, Sarah Palin would make a great president.

Jamie - A call False on your statements.

1 Opposes choice - NO doubt she is against Abortion, now to take it as far as your statement I have seen No proof. In fact the opposite - in the statement regarding her daughter she states - I am pleased with HER CHOICE.

2. False - Yes Mayor Palin asked the question but took NO ACTION to Ban or censor books. Even the left wing press is giving up on that one

3. Gods Will - at least she is consistent

Micheal - go ask Sen Obama the same series of questions.
Bet the same series of answers.

Her statement - If you listened with open ear and mind - was we need to avoid war, But if we or our NATO Allies are attacked we will defend.
I have no doubt Sen Obama has the same answer

Ping, haven't you heard---God supports Obama--Just ask him--open those heavens!

But when she is ready, I would probably vote for her

Chef Sheila

Where is Lardass Liberal.

Ronald Reagan.

Ping Pong...

1. If you are against abortion, even in the event of rape and incest, it is not a leap to determine she is against choice...unless it's her teenage daughter.

2. If you even ask about banning books in the town library, then at the very least you are predisposed to ban books. If only the second amendment protected books too...

3. Her religion is her religion but keep it out of my face. Everyone wants religion in public affairs so long as it's their religion. I come from a state founded on the principle of religious freedom and it would be nice if our country did more than pay it lip service.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24339136-2703,00.html

Palin talks tough on Russia

REPUBLICAN vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin yesterday refused to rule out war with Russia should Georgia eventually join NATO and then be invaded by Moscow's troops.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143913

ET, that makes plenty of sense to me. The bankruptcy law reforms fall on the wrong parties. Our attorney general - a corrupt A$$hole - just settled a lawsuit against a couple of the companies that "reduce your debt" because they really don't.

"Electing George W Bush president twice meant anyone can be president. Lots of people were happy to vote for Bush and did not question his experience." anon. And this is supposed to be some kind of recommendation that people vote for amiable nitwits without experience I'm guessing?

Ping, CNN was rated the most trustworthy cable news organization by Pew last month. I can't find that survey on their site but saw it on the tube last night.

Sarah Palin…“knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America.”

John Mc Cain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRjtAK66as

Ping, CNN was rated the most trustworthy cable news organization by Pew last month. I can't find that survey on their site but saw it on the tube last night.

Posted by: pogo Author Profile Page

Well that explains a lot...and not in a good way.

Bear - Do not allow the radical right wing media or the liberal left media to define the position of Gov Palin.
These statements you make are not supported - at least at this time.
Maybe Charlie got it out of her tonight on ABC - and then we have the facts.
Until then I have tried to avoid jumping off to these statements and attempt to derive the real world impact

If that's her National Security creds. It's a pretty thin nail to hang your argument on.

"Former senator Lincoln Chafee, the Rhode Island Republican who is backing Democrat Barack Obama, yesterday stood by his remarks calling Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin a ‘cocky wacko.’”

bear, that powerball lottery winner guy in WV, Jack Whitaker, is an idiot redneck construction company owner who absolutely could not handle his newfound uber-wealth well, but he was pretty prosperous before. He wasn't in state when his granddaughter's boyfriend, not his neice, died at his home, and I believe the jailing was a result of his drinking and driving. His neice died a couple months after that, but not at his house. He was robbed when his car was broken into (twice) at a strip club and his briefcase, which had way too much cash in it was stolen from the car. He was also jailed for assualt when he threatened a bar owner. There are other problems he experienced, divorce, lawsuits, you name it. He's had his 15 minutes of fame about a half dozen times, and it always makes the news here. As Gomer would say "He's a mess."

Ping Pong

While running for Governor, Sarah Palin said that she opposed abortion even in the case of incest or rape. She was only willing to consider it in the case of the life of the mother.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/palin-on-abortion-id-oppo_n_122924.html

The point of "Choice" is that ALL women should be free to make that decision with the counsel of their family, physician, and religious source. Sarah Palin thinks she should have the right to make that decision for everyone, not just herself or her daughter.

On books. Just the fact that she ASKED means that again she thinks her religious values should control public policy not the Constitution.

On God's will that is just a disagreement. I honestly don't think God is in favor of murdering people who have done you no harm, but if her God thinks it's okay then yes she is consistent.

"He's a mess."

He should get into blogging.

And this is supposed to be some kind of recommendation that people vote for amiable nitwits without experience I'm guessing?

Not a recommendation, a warning. People knew about Bush but voted for him anyway. He got caught flatfooted and people voted for him anyway, twice.

I was surprised this week when a poll showed Obama ahead in Washington state by only 4 points..

Now Rasmussen has only a 2 pt. lead..I don't get this, but it worrisome.

The thought of Sarah Palin a heartbeat from the Presidency is frightning.

Re: Palin & choice - for those of you who don't listen to the Rush's and Hannitys of theworld, the current meme is that the "choice" to have the baby is as legitimate a choice as the choice to abort it. The argument completely ignores whether the opposite is true, which of course is avoided because the argument that any choice is involved falls apart if that half of the equation is addressed where your position is that no choice to abort is legitimate.

flatus - I suspect instant messaging is as close as he gets to blogging.

Today's Comedy (non-political) break. He has a whole series of these over the years, but you have to be pretty good to be this funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu-YAMiS5wA

anon, thank god - I thought you had lost your mind completely.

Oregon Democrat-i have the same frightening feelings but it's Obama that causes it--sure did like your point of view during the primaries.

with the bush doctrine question ive always wondered what would have happened during the feb 26th debate when russert asked the successor to putin question ,instead of putting the question on the table, if russert asked obama that question or hillary remained silent until obama answered that question. would obama given us a palin moment?

PREDICTION: SNL will definately make fun of "Charlie". What the hell was that? He acted like a prosecutor. I have NEVER seen an interview begin like that ever. He threw a bucket of cold water on her right at the start. Maybe some pleasantry could have been extended? Ex. your son left for war, thank you for joining me, congrats on your nom. ANYTHING! Oh that's right she's not one of the boys. Keep it up "guys".(pussies)

OD, Pink Floyd had the idea I guess - "I have become comfortably numb". Unless the Plouffe/Axelrod/Obama team get their asses in gear, that might be the best approach. And they were going to turn red staes blue - how about trying to keep blue staes blue for starters?

True Maddie. I haven't watched Gibson since he suggested it was "charming "that GWB planted one on Secy Spellman at her swearing in. He has the balls to call McCain old?

Ditto. If the Obama supporters here are any example of the rest, I want them no where near any kind of power. They rank among some of the most despicable people with whom I've ever interacted. They are no different than the "religious right", and just as dangerous.

Cindy McCain: First Lady of Drifting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAXhBngJQak

krugman on mcliar

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/opinion/12krugman.html?hp

Last night on tv, one of the commentators stated that Palin answers on religion were the same as John Kennedy's and Franklin Roosevelt's. I do not know how to find this info, but Jack might. It would be interesting to see if that is true.. Surely would not have referenced it if it was not.

Julie

Champ,

So if I understand this, I am power hungry and a dogmatic follower of Obama, only because I want someone with intellectual curiosity and with a fresh perspective on government and our future?

Because I want a President from my generation, one who would thoughtfully consider an issue, I am akin to someone wanting to force not only their religion, but their beliefs of how I pray to Jesus Christ on me?

I find your assessment dubious at best.

Special counsel request subpoena's for Palin's husband and about 20 other government associates in connection with "Trooper Gate" and Palin misuse of authority.

Pogo,

your 2:16, a credit to your profession.:-)

I just haven't had enough java.

Evidence that the O campaign got its wake up call?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/us/politics/12cnd-candidates.html?hp

Rez, I try. :-)

You make a lot of valuable contributions Bear, but you do yourself no favors aiding and abetting the bullies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/opinion/12krugman.html?bl&ex=1221364800&en=f39c1af4713a32a3&ei=5087%0A

Blizzard of Lies

These stories have two things in common: they’re all claims recently made by the McCain campaign — and they’re all out-and-out lies.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143979

Jamie, John Prine knows - "...and Jesus don't like killin', no matter what the reason for..."

I can assure you that the priest at Mrs. P & LP's church would not agree with Palin that the war on terror is implementing God's will.

JFK was Catholic. FDR was Episcopalian which is as close to Catholic as you can get and still be called a protestant.

As such, I'm sure that their views in line with their religion would have been opposed to abortion. Of course they were both also very wealthy which meant that if a woman in their family needed to "go away" to Europe or get a "discreet" D & C, the service was easily available even if opposed by state law. There was no Federal decision at the time.

Opposes Choice even in the case of rape and incest. Wants to control public reading material. Believes current war is God's will. Doesn't practice what she preaches (well except for her own shotgun marriage rather than aborting the son now off to Iraq), but as an adult is willing to use power vindictively as evidenced by Troopergate and financial tangle with State of Alaska

Posted by: Jamie Author Profile Page | September 12, 2008 1:30 PM
97.

Jamie,

I am voting for McCain while Palin occupies the rumble seat, and it is McC alone who is driving. The issues you mentioned can be debated, to what end.. and these are not the issues that are decisive in my vote. As I said before my priorities lie in National Security, and I believe these are dangerous times. I cannot support Obama, and to paraphrase good 'Queen Elizabeth1; Obama "may have the heart of a king but he hasn't the stomach" to be Commander In Chief.

Jamie, above the entrance to my den my wife painted a horizontal scroll with the latin phrase for "Much In Little." which reminded me of how my one small vote could redress a great many wrongs

I realized just how great the benefit to be won is by opposing Obama and that a vote "denied" Obama represents true CHANGE by denying the DNC victory, and restoring the DLC. and moderation. Furthermore the MSM will attack itself in self loathing having failed to secure their man as POTUS. Then there's the lamentable transgression by the supercilious race monger James Clyburn, who I always view with gimlet eyes, should he go unrewarded?

Yet all this is NOTHING compared to how Obama debased the Bill Clinton Presidency, his legacy and his character while extolling those of Reagan. I look upon the Clinton years with great fondness, surely there is coinage, value, that needs defending. Every vote "denied Obama" represents a repudiation of those tactics and does honor to a great President who truly deserved better from the DNC, the Obama campaign, the AA community, but most of all from Obama himself. All this and more is attainable by denying him my vote.

PUMA/Clintons4McCain

regards
toast

jamie would be right about that. (from her 2:49 post). I think the question was not about abortion as such - I doubt that it ever came up in FDR or JFK's campaigns. JFK did have to acknowledge his Catholicism and defend himself against charges that he would be taking direction from Rome. Those accusations flew hot and heavy in the South in the '60 campaign.

OT:
Anyone recently switch to MS Office Pro 07 from the 00/03 versions.
DW just emailed me a great deal about an academia discount ($74 instead of $400)

Sometimes these upgrades are just a bunch of fluff to relearn and not worth it.
TIA

Champ,

You sound like you are aiding and abetting your own set of bullies with such a ridiculous statement. On the surface it reads like some sort of veiled threat. For someone who claims to be above that sort of crap, I find the statement bemusing and hypocritical.

You decry people whom you feel demean the nature of the debate here yet you are just as guilty when it comes to the aiding and abetting.

So far, in the past hour, I've been called a bully and naive because I don't by the bullshit people are trying to sell about the Palin and experience meme...hardly the example of good conduct there.

Rezdog,

I got a free copy of Office 2003 and I just use the 2007 patch and I'm good...

toast, we all choose our issues, vote our consciences and live with the results. I completely agree with you about the Clinton years, but personalities aside, I can't live with the idea of voting for 4 more years of what followed, or worse. If we were in the same state we could cancel each other's vote out. As it is, I'll just piss mine away and know I did nothing to continue the foreign policy approach of the neocons.

Toast,

A question I've been asking for a while is do you think a restored DLC has Hillary Clinton at it's head?

Do you think HRC could beat Palin in 4 years? I suspect that much of the bitterness Clinton folks have now will be returned in four years time.

Were Hillary to capture the nomination in 4 years, do you see her with Harold Ford Jr. or will his white wife be a problem then?

Please forgive me for trying to pay you a compliment. If you prefer to be associated with the demagogues, then bay all means...

1. To urge on; goad.
2. To stir up; foment.

random question - can anyone tell me how to enable the spell check feature of IE? I assume it has one and damned if I can find it.

At least that stupid Dana Perino is finally off the hook as the resident dum-dum in the Bush-McCain tight circle.
Perino faked her way out of never even having heard of The Bay of Pigs Invasion , and deer-in-the-headlights-Palin obviously never heard of The Bush Doctrine.
When Gibson asked her, I immediately thought, “pre:emptive aggression” would have been a snappy answer. Palin HAD NO CLUE !! I was surprised; this was the structure of the “reasoning” that got us into Iraq, and she never heard about it, but goddam-sure didn’t hesitate on the “going to war with Russia” question!
Biden will destroy her in the debate.

I'm not sure how

You make a lot of valuable contributions Bear, but you do yourself no favors aiding and abetting the bullies.

Posted by: champ | September 12, 2008 2:47 PM

That is supposed to be complimentary...That's akin to turning to your spouse and saying honey, those jeans don't make you look fat...

Obama said the Republicans think voters are stupid.

Are they wrong?

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/18/flash.poll/

Sorry Pogo, I am a mozilla guy, never likeds/used IE.

Milquetoast

While I deplore the actions of the DNC and hold Dean, Brazille et al in complete contempt, I don't see it as a reason to vote for someone that I KNOW will continue the deplorable actions of Bush. When I add that to the belief that McCain just really isn't all that bright then I have to go with someone I know would at least attempt to correct the Bush errors.

Obama may be inexperienced, but at least seems to have the intellectual curiosity to seek advice. In addition he has Joe Biden at his side whose judgement I trust. He may run off at the mouth, but he knows his business. Biden was my first choice for that reason and I only switched to Clinton after he dropped out. Under the circumstances, I would have preferred her as VP and Biden still in the Senate simply because those are the roles that I believe would suit them best, but the reverse is still a lot better than turning the country over to an elderly hawk and a novice whose views are 180 degrees away from mine.

Animal Control..thank you..

I'm in a difficult position because I can't stand Obama. I usually hit the mute button when he appears, just like I do for W..(No I am not equating the two)..

Unfortunately, I don't see that I have a choice other than voting for the Democratic ticket,as I have always done.

If my vote wouldn't make a difference, I would probably write in Hillary, but Oregon isnot a sure thing state as recent presidential elections and the current Washington state polls show.

I do like Joe Biden so Iguess I will be voting for him.

In an ideal world, Obama would wake up one morning and realize he is not the best Democrat to be President and he would withdraw. Only after several pints of good Oregon microbrew would I think that is possible.

" can assure you that the priest at Mrs. P & LP's church would not agree with Palin that the war on terror is implementing God's will."

Pogo

You would be right if that was what was said.

But that is not what she said

She was asking for her congregation to pray for her son and the troops.

To pray that the task the are being sent out on is a task from god

To pray that the leaders have a plan
to pray that the plan is gods plan

It was not a statement of fact but a hope and desire. Anybody who has ever spent a day in church recognizes the prayer.

Jack

Pogo,

I don't know if there is a built in spell check but there is an add on you can download...

ieSpell - Spell Checker add-on for Internet Explorer
www.iespell.com

Much of what I have read on this Blog today mirrors perspectives by the Media, which by the content and tone of its initial and on-going expressed opinions and attitudes toward Palin have been generally negative. I expect that those critical perspectives will not be borne out by the general electorate as presented in upcoming polls. Again!

And if that disconnect is indeed affirmed, it will feed into one of my observed conclusions for this election cycle that the Media, particularly Cable News Channels, despite their self-absortion, self-Chest pumping and sheep-herd-inbreeding mentality, are simply not able to move the electoral needle.

My friends, ....

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/washington/AP-Campaign-Republicans.html

McCain doesn't get sucha warm receotion on "the view"

"such a warm reception"

LOL

All Palin all day

And everytime you point at her inexperience another finger points back at Obama. And you wonder why he can't gain any traction.

So Obama and McCain spoke last night. I guess it wasn't very important. Probably hard to trash and demean.

Jack

anon..

Republicans generally believe that the voters are uninformed and easily fooled.

Many Democrats believe that reason and good will persuade and educate the masses.

The Clintons believe that you need to recognize your principles, fight fight fight for them, and beat the Republicans.

Al Gore and John Kerry lost because they were in la la land.

I keep seeing pro obama "Democatic strategists" what ever that is...laughing and those who live in small towns, other rural areas, like to hunt and enjoy the outdoors, or go to church.

I think Obama fits into this mold. He has taken what should be an easy victory , into the mess we experience now.

thanks, bear. I'll download it when I'm out of system.

Proverbs 16:18

A whole slew of commentary in Salon's "War Room" today. All of it is interesting

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

Jack, you're right - it was the pipeline that was "God's will" (give me a f*ckin' break) and Iraq was a "task that is from God."

http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515511.html

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

You read it your way, I'll read it mine. I don't make this stuff up.

Psalms 23:4

Ping Pong,

I believe you attributed by view on Palin's abortion stance to either a hard core left wing or right wing media bias...

"Cindy McCain, who joined her husband for the last part of the show, said she disagreed with Palin's view that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape or incest."

That was Cindy McCain on the View today.

Jack, I thought both candidates looked good at the forum last night. I do wonder why McCain basically told America that if Obama were with him on stage, he wouldn't have the balls to lie about him to his face though...

If anyone remember the McCain from 2000, the one who his current campaign staff accused of "fathering a black baby" and being "pro cancer" caught a glimpse of him last night.

Ya know, bear, I wanted to watch the forum last night, but after about 3 minutes of McCain, I checked the guide, saw that Rattle & Hum was on VH1Classic and went to watch it. I came back and after about 3 minutes of Obama, went back to U2. I think I'm burning out on the candidates' tv appearances.

Is it possible the Biden drops off the ticket??

Is this a news flash? what did Biden say?

The only way that BHO has a chance now is if Hillary joins the ticket??

Maybe true but would expose BHO even greater

Pogo

that is a bad quote
You are being suckered

the original source is out there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4LjsfWbZLA

She is asking for prayers

The sentence is

"That our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God"

That sentence is part of a list to be prayed for.

Jack

Ever do any Bonzai, Jack?

Bear, My manhood does not allow me to watch the view.
I do not take Gov Palin as supporting a law that would make criminals of women that had abortions. I do see her as a person that would work to support in everycase the life of the unborn.
What is wrong with this position?

Champ

I'm a broad brush slopping paint everywhere type person.

My favorite garden in the Neighborhood they worked up half the front yard and planted zinnias, cosmos and sunflowers.

Jack

3. Gods Will - at least she is consistent

Posted by: Ping Pong | September 12, 2008 1:38 PM

"God's Will ???" - To hell with her! She goes to a freakin' Assembly of God Church which is a CULT. They bang their tambourines, speak out in tongues, cast out demons and have these religious orgasms over the sanctity of capitalism. These so-called followers of "God's Will" speak of love but hate those who are different. They talk about turning the other cheek, but enthusiastically support immoral and illegal wars to follow their own agendas.

I think people to stop referring to Palin as a "pig with lipstick". It's insulting to the pig.

I second that.....I don't hate him or Cheney. They are not worth it. But I AM looking forward to some Justice. I am hoping that its just a matter of time before Justice hunters pick these two up when they've left the borders of the US. Then transport their persons to the Haag.

Let the world judge.

But Hate? Not worth our time.

Posted by: Chef Sheila | September 12, 2008 12:54 PM

I try not to "hate" but I despise George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. I really work on not hating them, but it's pretty much how I feel... I try to remind myself that they are human beings but their actions are so inhumane that I can't find a fibre of proof that they have a human bone in either of their bodies.

Bush/Cheney are evil incarnate !!!

This is too Priceless!

McCain: Mayors & Governors Do Not Have National Security Experience! Then why did he give us Sarah Paliin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhFDQIgGSg

ET - I would say that your XXX is showing, we may both be ignorant of the facts - I have seen no behavior on her part to force issues have you have so grossly implied. And hey whats wrong with a good tambourine in church everyonce in a while.

Reactions like this only bring more support for McCain / Palin

If the Obama supporters here are any example of the rest, I want them no where near any kind of power. They rank among some of the most despicable people with whom I've ever interacted. They are no different than the "religious right", and just as dangerous.

Posted by: champ | September 12, 2008 2:32 PM

Hey Champ, you're painting with a pretty broad brush of "Obama supporters". How about spelling out who you mean and why you find them so despicable? And how do you define "Obama supporters"? Some of us have supported him all along, many of us were STRIDENTLY in Hillary's camp til the bitter end, and some supported other candidates and moved (for some, somewhat grudgingly) to the Obama camp.

Just some food for thought... And I don't think most Obama supporters are being despicable...

I can't open youtube here, jack, but will when I get home tonight. I assume some right leaning publication has a transcript somewhere that reflects what you suggest she was saying, but it doesn't come up in the sources my browser finds. Even FoxNews quoted it that way. Perhaps you can find a more extensive transcript? I hate to wait until I go home since th' family & I are going out wandering for a while tonight, and I've been known to forget things.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-143941

Not so much tired as it wasn't the right shade of lipstick for her.

baca, I posted that McCain link earlier - it was completely ignored by the Palin supporters. Hmmm, I wonder why.

Chef Shelia and Bear.
Bush did no favors for the republican party, One can argue that no attacks in 7 years, but how do you prove, lots of things we do not know.

the 2006 cleaning of the Rep Congress was the start of the end of the old days for the Republican party. Another big corner turned which is why so many question for BHO and the Dems

Again is Biden short lived on the ticket?
What are they going to do

Bear

I kept the TV off until late I turned it on just as Obama was comparing his community experience to his college education. That was BS except in the way anyones first job is a learning experience than I turned it off.

I looked at the ads you posted this morning. The attack was just red meat for the faithful, I doubt if it will have much effect beyond that.

The second one was going in the right direction except where is the enthusiasm. If Obama can't speak with passion then he needs to let the announcer and the pictures do so. It was like Mister Rodgers making a campaign ad.

Jack

ET - I would say that your XXX is showing, we may both be ignorant of the facts - I have seen no behavior on her part to force issues have you have so grossly implied. And hey whats wrong with a good tambourine in church everyonce in a while.

Reactions like this only bring more support for McCain / Palin

Posted by: Ping Pong | September 12, 2008 4:02 PM

Sorry Ping, but I don't know what you mean by my "XXX"? I know these churches well... I was indoctrinated into a similar one in Minnesota. I know how they speak of love but hate anyone and everyone who does not confirm to their narrow beliefs. Frankly I don't care if Palin attends Devil worships and owns "The Satanic Bible" by Anton LaVay. But, people who use their church doctrine to attempt to codify their narrow conservative, biblical viewpoints are violating the spirit and necessity of a pluralistic and open society. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! No cultist for Vice-President...

With all the news about Ike and the evacuation of Galveston, you might enjoy reading about the Great Galveston flood of September 8, 1900 with its loss of approximately 8,000 lives.

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~geol108/yoon/galveston_flood_1900.htm

OK, jack, I finally found something with the context of the quote.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=27689

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right," Palin said. "Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she said.

"That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Like I said, you read it your way. I read it as a statement, not a hope, but I'd say it's susceptible to either meaning. Now that pipeline quote, not so much.

What's the Frequency, Kenneth?

Jack,

I've often thought that unless your major in college was scientifically based, you learned more outside the classroom in college than you did in most classes. For most kids, it's your first time in your life where you are on your own and it forces you to learn personal responsibility and how to think for yourself. Because of an excellent professor, I learned about community service and I implemented a mandatory program that everyone in my fraternity followed.

Just like McCain should be commended for his service to his country, I don't see how it's easy to denigrate someone who as editor of the Harvard Law Review, certainly passed up a huge payday in order to do the community organizing. Until the Republican convention, the only negatives I heard from anyone was the fact that he left a lot of money on the table.

Just picked this up in an email.

What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist?

Lipstick.

Ping, that "no attacks in 7 years" canard doesn't fly, although Hannity should be hoarse by now for repeating it so often. I say tell it to the parents, wives and children of our dead soldiers. How's this for a characterization - more Americans have been killed in the war on terror since 9/11 than were killed when the towers fell? We can play word games with all this, but in the end, the Bush waronterra has been a miserable failure ... and one that just will not go away.

This is close pogo, though I might have punctuated it different.
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2008/09/02/text-transcript-of-sarah-palins-speech-of-june-8-2008-at-masters-commission-of-wasilla-alaska/

Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.

Jack

Ping Pong,

with regards to this...

Bear, My manhood does not allow me to watch the view.
I do not take Gov Palin as supporting a law that would make criminals of women that had abortions. I do see her as a person that would work to support in everycase the life of the unborn.
What is wrong with this position?

Posted by: Ping Pong Author Profile Page | September 12, 2008 3:42 PM

I agree about the view but I think if you are going to call yourself pro life and oppose abortions in all instances, then you have to criminalize the behavior, otherwise you are only paying lip service to the cause.

If you think it's murder, why let that criminal get off with that crime when you wouldn't let them were the "victim" a viably self-sufficient being?

I guess it's a Catch 22 argument...but why bother telling people you are against abortion if you aren't going to do anything to change it? In my opinion, criminalization is the only way.

On a different note, until you came back recently, you were off for a while, what had you been up to?

Hamas minister of education in the Palestinian government who banned a book of Palestinian folk tales for its sexually explicit language.

Saudi Arabia prohibits the study, even in universities, of evolution

Oh, and I forgot to mention - it isn't true anymore than saying there hadn't been any in the 9 years before 9/11 following the first attempt on the WTC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_attacks_on_US_diplomatic_facilities

Pogo

All I know is if I was the McCain campaign, I would take Gibsons questions and a few dozen of the over the top statment from liberal netroots and mail them with a copy of the video to every church in the nation. Liberal or conservative. They will see it for what it is and rightly be offended.

It was pure church speak asking for prays.

Jack

Pogo,
and those brave Americans life’s will not have been lost in vain when a free Iraq rises from the ashes of not only a war but also the repression and murderous treachery of the former dictator. That the women and children of Iraq will now for the first time live in freedom and that going forward the future generations will not pay the price that the former Iraq’s paid.
And for the other oppressive dictators that threaten other nations that they will understand the resolve of not only America but also that of the free world.

Well, the end of the day is here - I think I'll go along, let LP play with his new guitar, take him and th' missus out roaming around looking for a decent meal. Everyone have a good weekend, and wish only good thoughts for those in Ike's path.

Bear-btw, what was up with your back?

Ping, sorry, I don't buy it. Sounds like a crusade. Bye now.

Sorry, Tom. Making lists is their gig.

Bear it is not a catch 22,
Maybe a Fundamental difference that Government is NOT the answer. People must be self responsible. True leadership is when you do not have a rule of law to require compliance.

In an organic sense this is the difference between Rep and Dem - Rep = Local rule, everyone is entitled to work hard for a living. Dem = Lets redistribute the wealth (envy?) and make laws to drive behavior

Now connect the dots - NEW REP LEADERSHIP, again I say - the trashing of 2006 and Bush next - This is why every darn time BHO and Dems keep trying to link Bush and McCain. They protest to much

Ping Pong

"One can argue that no attacks in 7 years, but how do you prove, lots of things we do not know."

There weren't any equivalent attacks BEFORE 9/11. You can't prove a negative. There may have been thwarted attempts before. There were some somewhat successful attempts before.

Bush claims that they have protected us from terrorism are like the completely phony used car salesman:

We buy for more
We sell for less
How we stay in business
Just lucky I guess

Best to you Pogo, safe weekend

"Again is Biden short lived on the ticket?
What are they going to do"

Ping Pong, If that was what was truly desired, it would be easy. He has had health problems before. New ones wouldn't come as a major surprise.

:~) Jamie !!
I just knew of a contact that went to washington (oh ya) for a long time and maybe helped to take care of some special situations - stuff of the movies.

Never talked in details -but special operations was the area - who knows ?

And yes I do believe that if someone pointed a gun or I was certain that they intended harm to me or my family, friends or loved ones, I would do any or everything possible proactivley to prevent.

"Government is NOT the answer"

Ping I tend to be a true conservative.
Without government we are at the mercy of the most brutish amoung us.

It is with government that we achieve our greatist potential. Libertarian tought could have only be imagined in a place with good strong government. where it's consequences were unimaginable, not an everyday occurrence.

Jack

So if Biden does go off the ticket it could be explained as Health problems ,, Ahhhhh

Not a politcal move... Got it

Hey, Craig! David Gergen says NO one should have to know what the Bush Doctrine is, so your comments might be considered off the mark. (Or maybe Mr. Gergen wants to preserve the option of serving yet another president!)

With all the bogus charges of sexism bubbling up lately from the McCain swamp in their relentless pursuit of the "ugly frog" strategy - Ask her what THAT is, Charlie! - it's probably a big mistake to make the following comment, but I'm just a lowly commentator on your blog, so here goes:

While "Sarah" (as she is approvingly referred to in the adoring mainstream media owing to her super-star status) probably surpassed the performance of the exceptionally "good looking" Miss South Carolina in last year's Miss USA contest, her whole demeanor during Charlie Gibson's interview DID have that perky, pageant-like feel to it.

I confess that my wife and I actually watch those grand events, and there is nothing more thrilling than seeing the otherwise tremendously accomplished contestants bullshit the judges in the unscripted "Final Question" portion of each pageant!

"Sarah" may have varied by degree from Miss South Carolina's pathetic and now legendary explanation for our kid's inability to master geography, but the governor's clear lack of understanding about a major policy position that Bush used to rationalize his invasion of a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 (another failure-to-know aspect of the interview), as well as her other robotic and totally canned responses, DOES cause one to wonder if she will show up at the inauguration with a sash over those good-looking short jackets she favors which show off her girlish figure!

And before I am dispatched to hell for my obviously sexist transgressions, did anyone else notice the calves on that woman? She's not only a baby makin', National Guard salutin', energy producin' political wizard, but training for the Iditarod in her spare time must be another one of her many accomplishments that we'll be hearing more about when she's voted on to the big pageant in Washington!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-144101

Ping Pong

I'm sure the 100,000 or so men women and children who had nothing to do with any military actions but are still decidedly dead are more than greatful.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1244292520080912

Tens of thousands of Iraqis could come to U.S. in '09

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has surpassed its goal of admitting 12,000 Iraqi refugees this year and expects more, perhaps tens of thousands, next year, the State Department said on Friday.

(many more are displaced in other countries )

let's not forget the refugees.....that left their life's work, and homes, and extended families for safety......

AARP questioning of McCain

http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/TopicAreas/Events/life-at-50/webstream/mccainod.html

AARP Questioning of Obama

http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/TopicAreas/Events/life-at-50/webstream/obama.html

In this environment of word-parsing and subliminal messages, "community" is too close to "communist," and "organizing" is what labor unions do to undermine productivity. No wonder those terms are putting the dems on the defensive.

I think it's the undermining and the belittling of the term and work of community organizers that have dems questioning the attack.

If ' the Bush Doctrine ' means just any old thing that one dislikes about republican dogma in the third millenium, then to me the ' Bush Doctrine ' means saying you're for something (like say, democracy) while battling to end it, or saying you oppose something (f'rinstance abortion) and doing nothing to prevent it.

Dear WhiskeyJack,

The difference between an anarchist and a Libertarian is that anarchists wear stinky sneakers, whereas Libertarians are sneaky stinkers. Otherwise, they are taxonomically identical.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/palin-muddles-preemptivestrike.html#comment-144087

"Isaac's Storm" by Erik Larson...an amazing book...

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/isaacsstorm/

Rezdog,

Is Palin's sect Determinist, like the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, (Dutch) Reformed Church, and Muslims ?

If so, are they more Calvinist or Islamist in their doctrines ?

I think the opposition to teaching evolution and birth control makes them, outwardly, pretty much like Islamists. How can I tell these folks apart ?

just one more calf.

Palin is a Pentacostal from the Assmbly of God.

wonder if she has any Jimmy Swaggart records.........

Pentacostalism by Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal

Jimmy Lee Swaggart.......First cousin of Jerry Lee Lewis, and Mickey Lee Gilley......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H02QxWFRIOw

How can I tell these folks apart ?

By their lipstick?

Maybe not Swaggert, but I bet Dobson is a favorite.

dobson couldnt play his way outa wet paper sack........

PALIN: We have to keep our eyes on Russia. Under the leadership there.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors. And you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska.

"Mccain takes a slim lead over Obama in AP-GfK poll"
"The survey has plenty of positive signs for Obama as well.The Illinois Senator is generally doing about as well with whites as Democrat John Kerry did in his losing but close 2004 race against Bush."
http://www.rr.com/view/content/story.cfm?storyId=5790452&view=HOME&newsgroup=9000&sSect=HOM_1

Dobson is spokesperson for the Speaking in Tongues set. He doesn't need to even have a hit. His hit parade is heaven induced.

I wonder if Bush even knows what the Bush doctrine is. I wish ABC had cut to Bush answering the same question.
http://www.entertonement.com/collections/3369/First-Palin-Interview-Pt-1

Marty Feldman discourses upon god, acts of god, insurance, war, and tom lehrer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0bqZw6B0A

KGC,

I have a couple of bulging discs in my back among other things...

Apologies all round to those I may have inadvertantly insulted, last evening, and even those I meant to..........boy those back channelers, are so myopic there doesn't seem to be any way to have reasonable discourse......................................................

Sturgeone; 7:07 am .........As I said once before, the voice of reason ............... I agree with every syllabel uttered about the GOP, but as Gore Vidal said, "by the time a man gets to be presidential material, he's been bought 10 times over," all we can hope for is some benevolence. I can't see this "incidental" creating any kind of change, but bad, and that scares me.............

Jamie; 12:06 pm ................ "money and VP speaking ability," unfortunately, this is so true, and don't you think it's very, very sad that it is true? It shouldn't be happening.....why do they keep screwing up so badly?

Champ; 2:32 pm ...............again we agree, they are dangerous, because they have tunnel-vision and and there's not an optometrist in sight..............................

Bear; 3:01 pm ................. I'm not selling anything about Palin, no matter how hard they try to paint me as a repug, but your candidate frightens the hell out of me - reliance on wife(bad news), ineptitude, he seems so detached that he appears to have been manufactured in a backroom somewhere and the one time he should have voted PRESENT, he voted for FISA ...... You are a thoughful person and poster and are not adverse to discussion, so I hope you don't take this as a personal afront, it certainly is not meant in that context.............................................................

Rita

Politically Pissed.

What a lame excuse.....if you don't like the candidate vote for the party......you have to have beliefs and ideology, even if its socialist or facism, its still beliefs. Pick one and go for it. Don't ride the fence.

If Palin is your pick, then be proud to defend the Republican Party......

speaking in tongues: Old indian word for TONE DEAF

oops......old indian "phrase"....

Copper Catfish, my friend, you've got it right.
With all the issues facing our country- pick one issue you care the most about- does it jibe with McCain's or Obama's position?

That is what this election is about - if you put "Country Frist" it is hard to see how you could put Country First and vote for McCain-

+++++++++++++
Boy, did Sarah look nervous or what tonight?

testing testing

I see a lot of my cousins are on board tonight with me and sturgeone........

yippee for months I have been locked out. Maybe I owe Dobson a thanks for allowing me in

I was going to ask if the Sturgeone was a Palin Fish too..

I'd have to have a good look at her calves.......

McCain put county first he just picked the wrong country. Ya kno hes old - right?

85 i herd

I checked my fins and I smell the sea! No stink just yet

Have a diff pc, friend said he would give mine a tuneup, I put in a plastic bag, a cpl of spark plugs and wires, gave him the pc and bag, then used the bathroom.Richard ( when I got back) had a one gallon can of gas and wanted to know where to put it in,he ruined what I thought was a perfectly good joke...I'll get him next time.

I hope this goes through,

SolarCrete

socre.....sounds like the kind of feller what might remain 2 steps ahead of yas, unless you get creative and think outa da box.......

Wheeeeeeee

Sock puppet time

Wheeeeeeeeee
Copper , Mullet , Copper , Mullet, Copper , Mullet
Come to your sister
kiss kiss kiss

I'm your socky baby

Wheeeeeeeee

Fun fun fun

Absolutly Country first, The Palin choice will prove to be brilliant, which is already coming about

NEW THREAD

sara's goin to pass the old guy in the polls real soon

evening BNY.... how you doing today?

So in other words, they should be called....McPalin right?

So what is going to happen to Mr Palin and his supeana? is he in trouble?

She didn't muddle anything according to Charles Krauthammer that is exactly how she should have responded there are 4 Bush Doctrines and they are the Past not the Future. Why should Palin have to answer questions about a past Bush Administration? The McCain/Palin ticket not falling for Democrat Talking points? The accusation is they are 4 more years of Bush. Charles Gibson was laying a trap she didn't fall into it. Meanwhile Obama might have flown to close to the sun.

http://sarah-palin-2008.blogspot.com/2008/09/icarus-syndrome.html