Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

The market is settling around 10600 about where it was when Shrub was elected.

Ironic.

It is like we have a bunch of clowns under the Cap. dome.

I don't understand the whole economics of this thing... I know that in Belgium, FORTIS bank has gone almost insolvent and had to have 116 billion euros thrown at it by the Dutch, Belgian and Luxembourg governments. My ex has lost 30,000 euro in a few months, around 10% of what he has invested there with his brother. These are not good times and all fingers are pointing at the USA for creating the mess.

KGC....

yeah..... is this stuff lunacy or what.....

Boner goes to the mike and rails about this not being a Democratic or Republican problem and cries for a need for bi-partisanship..... then says it's all Pelosi's fault......

jesus christ...... and then they wonder why Congress' approval rating is even lower than Bushy's.......

Watching the Republican House leadership having a press conference confirms my pride in never having voted for a Republican in my lifetime. Even when the Democrats have run a dolt, I've found somebody good to write in...

I wonder how much Speaker Pelosi's comments encouraged the defeat today? After all, if the Bush & Co. is so bad, then why bail them out? It's just like aspirin -- it helps the pain go away but doesn't always cure what is the root cause of the problem. And with regard to her speech, Great could refer to Big, not just in a beneficial way. Perhaps at the time of the Great Depression, people were still thinking of the Great War, which again wasn't all the fun and beneficial for most people effected by the ravages of war.

I wonder if my meager $14,000 retirement investment is at all safe. I moved it to a money market savings after losing around $2,000 in a few months. This was before it went from bad to worse. According to the fund manager, it's only getting like 2% interest, but it's not vulnerable to the fluctuations of the market. I am really unsure...

The House Republicans wanted the benefit of the Democrats giving the votes to pass the bill with enough votes that they could vote against it, thus giving them the benefit of being against the bill as well...

The Republicans

Outrage if it passed
Outrage if it failed

Bush has been draining cash assets from around the world to pay for the debacle of Iraq. Now the off budget house of cards that he built is crashing and the people who are going to get crushed by the debris are the average folks on the street.

There are distinct protections that need to be in the bill and for once the money has to be principally infused from the bottom up not the top down.

I saw that Bush had a call list of Republicans he was trying to lobby to vote for the Bill...

The easiest way for him to get them to vote for the measure is that if they don't, Bush will personally campaign for them in their districts...lol

Rep Barney Frank said he is sorry the bill failed because he believed Bush but he would be happy to be proven wrong.

Shrub the boy who cried wolf.

So is this bill GOOD for the country and the economy or not?

Title should read our Governments Political Bankruptcy.

Craig why do you leave Nancy, Harry, Barney and Chris out of it?

Come on

Bush spent all his political currency on Iraq and tax cuts. He was going to Congress to get a bailout. His own party said, "Nope, no more money to try and salvage your legacy. You've talked tax cuts and free markets as the path to economic salvation for us and political salvation for the world and we've agreed - let's just show em you were right." I wonder what the end result will look like? Think he'll get sympathy from the historians for trying to rescue the economy? I predict he'll be as successful as McCain has been in his efforts to rescue the rescue. The fact that the economy needed the same bailout was incidental.

And the polls today don't look good for McCain - ahh, but it's still 2 days until October. Wonder what's waiting in the wings...

Nancy Pelosi " like a little kitten with sneakers - this crisis snuck up on us” Oh My Nancy – you are clueless.
Also you are not in control and in fact your lecture in the house today was so political.

Can you believe she would admit such

Euro,

The bill brings liquidity to the credit markets which will help move the economy along.

Ping, the fact that Republicans were unwilling to offer an alternative until this bill was ready for a vote tells me that the Republicans were looking for an "ideological" issue that would allow them a break from Bush to help them save their seats. Paul Ryan said as much, "we want to keep our jobs"

When it's members of the opposition party that must carry the water for the most unpopular President ever, they did enough.

The fact that these Republicans threw a hissy fit because Pelosi pointed out just how much the Republican Congress and Bush squandered since 2001 is all you need to know.

I am sorry but I am not letting the Dems off the hook! I also think Nancy Pelosi was a disgrace giving such a partisan speach on a day like this. Throw all the bums out--Democrats and Republican---Boy do we need some statesmen at a time like this.

So the very first time pathetic Pelosi and company have sometyhing really serious to deal with, they flop, how the hell is BO going to get any thing done? The congress had almost 2 years to take the sting out of this mess, I've said it before, they couldn't be bothered.

Also for those who are not noticing, most bank accounts are protected by the FDIC, with Citigroup picking up Wachovia, Barclays picking up Merrill Lynch and all the other manuvering, it will go on and on, then these entities will be too big to let fail because the FDIC will have to protect them to a point. The rich get richer, etc., etc., etc.,.....................

Rita

Jane,

So what if Pelosi said something that put someone's nose out of joint. If this is the crisis that Bush claims then Barney Frank was right when he said, Are the Republicans claiming that "Someone hurt my feelings so I'm going to vote to destroy the country".

If you believe that this failed because of Pelosi's statements and that this really is a crisis, doesn't that make the Republicans traitors? If they aren't traitor's then their vote had nothing to do with Pelosi.

You can't have it both ways.

Jane,

You should have listened to all the house Republican speeches during the debate then.

They spun their opposition to the bill as a moral obligation to protect their constituents even though that haven't introduced an alternative that would work themselves.

Many have been spinning this as a Democratic failure going back to Jimmy Carter and feel they bear no responsibility themselves.

Why in the world would Mrs Pelosi go for a vote if the whip count showed that it wouldn't pass in its present form???

Jim Cramer, who's been right every step of our calamitous way offers the following:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=872023742

About 15-minutes ago, my son-in-law called asking what he should do. I asked what he had in his portfolio. The putz didn't have any idea. Sheesh.

Flatus,

did they leave the democrat earmarks to acorn & others the roughtly 20% of the 700 billion in the final record to vote on?

Julie

Flatus,

She rubbed Republican noses in the dog mess and Boehner whined she cost 15 Republican votes by blaming them for pissing away a projected trillion dollar surplus when Bush took over...

I know that Congress is afraid because it's being reported that their constituents are overwhelmingly telling them not to bail out the fat cats.....

my concern is how does the average citizen know enough what to tell their Congress person to do?......

it's easy to say "don't bail out the rich"..... I'm sure it makes all of us feel better to say it..... but if it does mean the economy will tank if we don't...... well.....
everyone knows that old cliche of biting off one's nose to spite one's face....

Ping - you are right to the extent that neither party delivered enough votes. I think you left Dumya out of your list - and he has his place for failing to persuade his own party. The Senate hasn't voted, so Boner and Pelosi are the only 2 of the 4 you've clamored to attach blame to who can rightly be faulted - so far - for failing to draw enough votes to pass the measure. Since Repugs voted 2 to 1 against, and Dems voted with a 40 vote margin (> 59% of the Dem caucus on a bill sought by the Repug pres.) in favor, you can't lay this failure of leadership at the feet of Pelosi, although I generally agree about her lack of leadership. I think that bills the admin pushes typically are passed by leadership of the president's party delivering their caucus and attracting enough of the opposition party to pass the bill, not the inverse (or is that converse - I always get those confused).

Jim Cramer of buy Countrywide fame.
He is full of crap.

Jamie,
You are good
They voted it down with the help of 95 Democrats - I have not checked by I will assume this is the NEW BATCH that came into the house.

Ms Pelosi - You have a problem

Ping

I think President Bush has a problem No one gives a crap about him or worse believes him.

133 Republicans voted against THEIR president. What's up with that?

Pogo, Every press conference and MSM spin showed Harry and Nancy coming to the Mike. Agree this is Bush Bill along with Nancy, Harry, Skip to my lew Chris in the back ground....
Please be assured in this matter Bush is a ZERO.

Coreen

Kucinich urged a no vote because the bill in reality provided nothing for distressed homeowners.

http://kucinich.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Kucinich%20Letter.pdf

There is a BIG HOLE that needs to be filled.
What are the substantive policy points that brought this mess?

Whose policy most resembles this failed policy?

Figure it out

That is why this did not pass - a shot across the bow by the group that will best represent middle America - 133 Reps and 95 Dems

National City Bank is off 16%, which is better than some banks which are off as much as 36%!
The market has rallied from 734 down at 3:29 to down 618 and there are still 7 minutes to go....

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152152

That's 15 whiners. Good lord - they DID piss away a huge surplus and created a huge deficit. When has Boner ever said a kind word about the Dems? Now he wants verbal salve to pass his own presdient's bailout bill? Get a life; the TRUTH SOMETIMES HURTS. Smell the sh*t, deal with it and for once in the past 8 years do what you think is best for the country. :-) Pissants.

Please be assured in this matter Bush is a ZERO.

Posted by: Ping Pong | September 29, 2008 3:44 PM

In EVER matter Bush is a zero.

Wait, I take that back. He did one good thing. ONE! He awarded the Presidential Medal

From the Doris Day Yahoo Fan club:

"Doris Day Honored with Presidential Medal of Freedom

Miss Day received the United States Presidential Medal of Freedom in recognition of her distinguished service to the country. The White House declared: "Doris Day became an American icon as an actress and singer. She captured the hearts of Americans while enriching our culture."

During the award ceremony on June 23, 2004, the President recognized Miss Day's work on behalf of the animals by saying, "It was a good day for our fellow creatures when she gave her good heart to the cause of animal welfare."

Today Miss Day devotes her time and energy to helping animals through her two charitable organizations, the Doris Day Animal Foundation and Doris Day Animal League"

That's it. That's the sum balance of anything positive Dumbo has done.

Ping, Harry and Chris were involved in the bill wrangling on the senate side because of the urgency Paulson and Dumya begged for. They wouldn't normally do that would they - no, they'd draft separate bills in each chamber, pass them then reconcile them - but your president didn't leave them time for that while he was hiding under the mushroom playing with his toy soldiers. They were acting in what they thought was the best way to address the problem with the urgency Dumya wanted, and they recognized was warranted, and then he got screwed by his party. This is a failure of the Repugs in the house, no more and no less - and they will either be lauded or reviled by the voters in about 5 weeks. This could be a game changer or not - but we'll know before too long, won't we?

Que Sera Sera .. whatever will be will be...
the future's not ours to see
Que Sera Sera...

Pogo

Frank mocks GOP complaint on bailout

Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor September 29, 2008 03:52 PM

As House Democrats and Republicans blame each other for the Wall Street bailout bill going down in flames, Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts mocked the GOP leadership for saying that it lost some votes because of a partisan floor speech by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/09/frank_mocks_gop.html

Well, everyone have a good evening, or go cry in your beer, or whatever you have planned - I plan to go watch LP try and defeat the infamous Hall Boys on the pitch and hope my bank doesn't do a backflip before tomorrow.

KC - I'm sure Barney is pissed at the Repugs who voted against the bill and double pissed at the Dems who did. I still say the Dems delivered much more than the Repugs did. Now off to the soccer field.

Ping Pong

"Please be assured in this matter Bush is a ZERO. "

Right . Bush's bill. Bush's Secretary of Treasury. Bush's speech screaming crisis, dire, failure blah blah. The sooner this total failure gets out of the office, the sooner the Democrats can start cleaning up the poop he left behind.

Good afternoon everyone. We live in interesting times.

Shana Tova! Happy 5768!

Eid Mubarak!

Pogo,

Since this is an appropriating bill, constitutionally, the Senate can't vote on it until it passes the house...

Can't tell the players without a score card -- here's the roll call on the bail out bill.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

I did some research today. I posted this on my blog.

Financial institutions are failing. The White House is urging swift action to save these companies and our economy. Times are hard. Thank God we have pro sports. If you wanna get away from all the bad financial news about corporations, I suggest visiting your local pro sports stadium or arena. That will make you forget all about the troubles of the economy. If you unsure about which stadium or arena to go to, here is a list of pro stadiums/arenas where you can see a pro sporting event: Chase Field in Arizona, TD Banknorth Garden in Boston, HSBC Arena in Buffalo, Nationwide Arena in Columbus, American Airlines Center in Dallas, Comerica Park in Detroit, American Airlines Arena in Miami, Amway Arena in Orlando, Wachovia Center, Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia, Edward Jones Dome and Scottrade Center in St. Louis, Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field in Cleveland, Bank Atlantic Center in Florida, Invesco Field in Denver, PNC Park in Pittsburgh....there are many other fine pro stadiums/arenas where you can see a great pro sporting event as well. So forget about all the troubles of corporate america and get out there and see a pro sporting event!

Dow closes down 777.68

I seem a lot of people going out to buy some redneck/ghetto retirement fund shares with a visit to the local lottery counter...

My son's death character commenting on political parties.

http://doodlechris.blogspot.com/2008/09/political-death.html

Schuster's taking MCCain's economic advisor down!

Market closed down 777.68! Way to go GOP!

Shana Tova Happy 5768!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95YJHhZ1tfI

Corey,

You forgot the TD Banknorth Garden in Boston too...

It looks like the Republicans may be panicking since the house will reconvene on Thursday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523/

It's in there, Bear. As my brother-in-law said last night. Businesses have always failed in America, look at our history.

Barney Frank is funny as hell...lol

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26945978#26945978

Great post Corey!

As for what congress should do next
Give Paulson 150 Billion and Come Back In January and Do it RIGHT (And here’s how to do it right)
By: Ian Welsh Monday September 29, 2008 1:26 pm
http://firedoglake.com/

Paulson said he only needs !50 billion to get started.

John McCain makes himself look more foolish by the day. Two hours before the vote, he was taking credit for the passage of the bailout bill.

I am beginning to believe that he not only chose an inappropriate person as his VP pick, he is likely an inappropriate presidential candidate. It's looking more and more as though his time has come...and gone....

It was not my intention to vote for him. As an independent, I've already chosen Obama/Biden and the Democrats for my 2008 vote, but McCain/Palin is a very frightening ticket to me.

Where do you order signs from? I need a couple myself.

A thorough overview by Forbes, including the Market response

Now What?

"The bill had majority support from House Democrats, at around 140-95. It was killed by staunch opposition from House Republicans, 65-133."

Thinking they had enough support from both Democrats and Republicans in the House of Representatives, House leaders brought the bill to a vote.

The Dow ended the day down 777.68 points, or 6.98%. The S&P 500 and Nasdaq plunged 106.59 points, or 8.79%, and 199.61, or 9.14%, respectively.
http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/09/29/bailout-congress-credit-biz-beltway_cx_bw_jz_0929vote2.html

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152140

Jane, I can't say I disagree with you.

I just heard Fareed Zakaria of CNN state that Palin's answer about Russia's proximity to Alasksa in her Couric interview was amusing..... but her answer concerning the bailout and our economy was frightening..... he said she clearly didn't even understand the question Couric asked her.....

Thursday's debate should tell us all we need to know......

Corey..... that a great idea..... but have you seen the prices of sporting event tickets lately..... a family of 4 practically needs to take out a loan to see a baseball game at Fenway Park...... considering the salaries of sport stars are really astronomical.... I say do the opposite..... stay home.... watch the game on tv..... microwave your own popcorn.... buy a six-pack at the market for the price of one beer at a ballpark......

People want a plan just not the Bush plan

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/the_failure_of_the_financial.html?nav=rss_blog

worth repeating

Hey, Brani...bite your tongue. It was so amicable here.

Too bad. It's good advice for Brani.

Other posters don't need to be patronized and insulted by those in disagreement.

Bill Clinton needs to point that "fairy tale" finger of fate at the Republican Party. Talk about fairy tales! You have the little boy who cried wolf asking for $700 Billion and then you have the Emperor's (Empresses) New Clothes with Palin.

What a bunch of Fairy Tales. Grim (not Grimms) Fairy Tales!! I hope Obama will continue to vociferously step to the edge of the teeming crowd to point out the obvious to all with authority!

I just saw the replay of Mrs Pelosi's speech--I think it was terminally dumb making such divisive comments just before the key vote of her tenure as Speaker.

I think it's time for her to give the opportunity of serving to someone else.

Katherine,

Thanks much for your updates. Dennis Kucinich certainly has a valid point about the absence of assistance to distressed homeowners.

Catching up on the voting fiasco--just fascinating--- it seems that many of the liberal side of the aisle also voted against the proposal since it did not go far enough in their view----there is speculation that a revised bill could now include those provisions removed from the proposal---such as bankruptcy judges adjusting loan terms, proposal to assist in preservation of homeownership
(as stated in the Emory Law Professor's letter to Dennis Kucinich, & the so-called ACORN funding provision---since the dems are a majority they could
in reality pass the bill in any manner they want.

L'Shana Tovah,

The entire world would be well served to turn to the good.

I hope that the next version of the rescue mandates an 80% cut in salaries and percs for finance execs and board members, an end of bonuses, and at least $100 MILLION set aside for prosecutions.

That would be a turning toward the good, indeed.

L'shanah tovah tikatev v'taihatem(men) or L'shanah tovah tikatevi v'taihatemi (women)

Not sundown here but at least the afternoon.

Coreen

The ACORN provision -what a load of crap. Just because of that lie, the Dems should put in a giant fund for ACORN...all the money earmarked for bonuses should go to ACORN instead.

I'm in agreement with the proposal made by Senator Clinton months ago for the home loan corp. If you take care of the toxic loans that should solve the problem --unless they are lying about that.

Rita,

Apparently, the anarchist branch of the republican side of the aisle has trouble reaching across to the fascist branch of the republican side of the aisle.

Also apparently, monolithic republicanism is now dead. To paraphrase the subtitle of a Werner Herzog classic, it's "Every man for himself and God against everyone" of them.

Good evening, all.

Bear - great link to the Cramer bit on cnbc, but I couldn't get into the msnbc bit with Barney. Figures - why would I expect msnbc to do anything correctly?

Corey - loved the suggestion of sports and their corporate arena names. Where have you been lately?

Whatever the effect of her speech, pelosi was stupid to get partisan before a vote like this - her political judgement was childish. Seems as if she thought she had the repubs by the short hairs and assumed the outcome she wanted - another example of being gracious when you can afford it. We'll never know what might have happened if she had been bi-partisan and expressed gratitude that both parties could work together.

Frankly, I think this is the cause of the complaints re this congress. People say it got nothing done even tho the dems had a majority. The majority included some very liberal dems who voted against their own party - I understand their motives and their objectives. However, this stand did not get time limits for the war in Iraq and so we are still there. We are at an impasse because of dems who see other dems as bad as repubs. I accept their motives, but no one should think dems have a majority.. I love my rep, Lynne Woolsey, but I don't like her votes at times.

Kgc - I know we disagree on this but both like Woolsey.
I also love to see the vineyards turn their autumn colors, but think the chinese pistachios trees turn my favorite color. The liquidambers turn good colors, too, but I hate the trees and those itchy balls they drop.!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152228

Flatus,
You may well have heard or seen this already, but it explains what happened.

Did Pelosi's ad lib doom the deal?

"But a review of the video of Pelosi’s comments shows the speaker deviated substantially from her prepared remarks when she stepped into the well of the House at about 12:20 p.m. Monday afternoon – delivering a series of ad-libbed jabs at President Bush and his party."

"Among the remarks Pelosi made on the floor that were not included in the prepared text:........"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/14089.html

Wow!

"Whatever the effect of her speech, pelosi was stupid to get partisan before a vote like this - her political judgement was childish."

Careful, don't think you're allowed to say that here Bethy.

Agree with what? I didn't say anything.

You know nanny, I don't think you've ever addressed me before.

You know you can think the way you do, and also think it was foolish of Pelosi to turn her statement into an insult.

Looking at the facts of what's happening don't scare me. Having people discourage differing opinions does. You have no idea whom I'm going to vote for this election, or how I feel about any of this. That's what happens when you only seek opinions of those who are predictable enough to feel sure what their response will be.

And by the way to you also. I'm not a republican. And I hate Bush.

While the petty nature of both sides of the aisle was on display for all to see & judge---some perspective---the immediate result---American equities lost $1.2 trillion in market value. Significantly greater than the suggested cost of the bailout/rescue.

Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks plunged and the Standard & Poor's 500 Index tumbled the most since the 1987 crash after the House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion plan to rescue the financial system.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average slid 778 points for its biggest point drop ever as $1.2 trillion in market value was erased from American equities

Why nanny? What difference should it make to you what I think. My choices are my own.

This may be an open forum. But it's wrong to be rude to others, whether you're anonymous or not.

"That bill should have passed and for 12 repugs to claim they changed their votes because Pelosi ticked them off is a disgrace. "

Did 12 guys say that or was that claim made by 1 guy who was mad that the vote didn't go through?

Good Evening All and a special hello to Chloe! Here's to Chloe, she is kind to all and happy to debate without making personal insults. So where is Jack and Sturge ,?, Would love to hear their take on the day.

Thanks Sea, But I'm not always kind. Not when I'm mad, anyway. But where are Jack and Sturge?? We need them.

Let's hope that over the next few days, cooler heads will prevail, in DC & here as well--- I do believe (have always thought) that the bailout/rescue legislation would be passed. There is not alternate plan & time is truly of the essence.

Nanny, I would suggest that as with most things--eyes of the beholder determines one's view---& thankfully there is room for many views here.

Chloe, I often see another perspective when I read your comments--& welcome the opportunity to give those views consideration.

Looks like the Fed doesn't much care what Congress does
The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression.

This dovetails with something I've been saying for a long time. In essence Bernanke can print as much money as he wants, so the idea that Hank had to have 700 billion NOW always seemed a bit strange to me. If Congress didn't give Paulson the money, Bernanke could always just make it.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/09/29/fed-to-congress-well-just-print-630-billion-dollars-k-thx-bye/

Thanks Coreen. I enjoy reading your posts.

Gotta go.

Rez,

Another reason to reject Palin. She's not at all popular with native Americans in Alaska.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20080929/Palin.Alaska.Natives/

"that claim was made by the House minority leader"

And of course we believe everything he says.

Neat post Jamie, didn't have any idea of the complexities in Alaska

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152252

Chloe,

When you repeat quotes and link to sites that are all one point of view, one does assume that the links you provide and the quotes your repeat are your beliefs as well. If they aren't, please let us know when you disagree.

nanny, I didn't really mean that you specifically were rude. I knew you were upset and so am I. And I've said plenty around here that could be considered rude (and probably has been). But thanks.

Jamie,
All in the sense of 'fair and balanced".

You've known since the Primary how I feel about the election. And you also know this site can be very unwelcoming to some.

Chloe

That was in response to your claim that you didn't "say anything". You say something everytime you post. We all do. I was just pointing out that if you don't put a disclaimer on your link, then we figure the link is speaking for you.

I also said a few times that I don't necessarily agree with everything in my links and I don't endorse them. I just think they have an interesting view point. Either one that backs up what some think here or one who provides another view point.

Do you want me to state a disclaimer every time I link something? I have my own reasons for linking them and didn't know that it was required of me to clarify them.

All you need to know about why the bailout is wrong

newsday.com
26 Sep 2008 In the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, former Mayor Rudy Giuliani has begun drumming up business, positioning his law firm to advise corporate clients on how to profit from the government's $700 billion bailout.

Here's Michael Moore on why the bailout is wrong.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/100749/the_rich_are_staging_a_coup_right_now/?

I'm glad that Pelosi said what Pelosi said......I wish more would say more and more and then some......Boner's fulla crap

Chloe

You don't have to do anything. It just helps the discussion if you understand someone's position.

Well, once again, I disagree. I often do disagree with you Jamie. That doesn't stop me from respecting your opinion.

sorry for the long post.

"It just helps the discussion if you understand someone's position."

I think that's called bias. It helps the discussion if you understand someones bias. Right?

A brief analysis of what is and will continue to occur without a bailout. Regardless, taxpayers will bear the brunt of the costs & risks.

"Without a Bailout Plan, what will the cost be?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1845609,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152294

Not bias ... position. What do YOU think about an issue? You are far too intelligent to be some blank slate without any ideas. That's all I was trying to get at. What do you think.

Time, CNN....mouthpieces for corporate media: shills, lackeys and flacks, oh my......

well.....what does krugman say.......

Sorry Jamie. But I'll be anything I want to be. If that makes you uncomfortable, then like I said, sorry. (oh, and when someone bothers to ask me what I think, I always tell them - I just haven't run into that many people that care about my opinion).

Sturgeone
Krugman?
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/who/498184_something_stinks_clothespin_on_nose.php?id=498184

But Krugman thinks some type of bailout needs to go through

der Krug just left olberman.......after listening to him, I stroked my beard a bit while nodding my head sagely...........

wonder where I can find one of those ancient clothespins.......havent seen one in years......decades.....

Sturge - I agree that more people should speak out - it's just that when you want someone to agree with you, it's more "politic" to put off saying it a few minutes, like maybe after they DON'T agree with you. Right now, the situation is more partisan than ever.

Chloe - I think just about everybody here wants to hear what you think - that's why you get so many responses.

Personally, I'm never sure if a poster is in agreement with the link she/he posts. I sometimes post a link cuz I think others might find it interesting. Can't we just ask the poster?

Ping - I really am interested in what the false and/or statements were in that letter re Palin. I haven't found it easy to pin down most candidates on their real attitudes re abortion etc. I wasn't being defiant.

Sturgeone

http://www.storepulls.com/products/Natural_Wood_Clothespins-239398-4487.html

This kind?

Bethy, I hope you don't mind me reposting these two paragraphs from your 6:27 PM; they are exceedingly good:

"Whatever the effect of her speech, pelosi was stupid to get partisan before a vote like this - her political judgement was childish. Seems as if she thought she had the repubs by the short hairs and assumed the outcome she wanted - another example of being gracious when you can afford it. We'll never know what might have happened if she had been bi-partisan and expressed gratitude that both parties could work together.

Frankly, I think this is the cause of the complaints re this congress. People say it got nothing done even tho the dems had a majority. The majority included some very liberal dems who voted against their own party - I understand their motives and their objectives. However, this stand did not get time limits for the war in Iraq and so we are still there. We are at an impasse because of dems who see other dems as bad as repubs. I accept their motives, but no one should think dems have a majority.. I love my rep, Lynne Woolsey, but I don't like her votes at times."

Jamie,

Her failures in recognizing the AK native pops, let alone being of assistance, has been fairly well documented and discussed in the native news outlets. I have a few old buds (natives) that I wish I knew reach to get first hand info.

Hey Bethy

I passed along your puppy post. There are a couple of places in the county that have a special place for older dogs.

At least Woolsey votes right although I wish she were more of a leader. She is the most senior elected official in the North Bay.

Thank you Bethy,
You are so sweet. I don't know what to say to that, except I love reading all your posts.

I can't believe I'm still here this late.
nite.

Auditions now being held for new god at Chelsea Studios........

jamie....yep.....but with the springloaded kind you can rig it up to shoot little tiny tracer bullets with strike anywhere matches.......

Maybe so Sturg, but to me it's all good-tempered kidding, not a personal attack.

Stugeone

You can get the springloaded one any where. Here's Walgreens

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?id=prod3471416&CATID=100760&skuid=sku3470259&V=G&ec=frgl_556505&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku3470259

Chloe
I'm just catching up.I love all your posts and links.I never assume the links are necessarily your views because you are all the time telling us you post a variety of opinion that some may enjoy.Thanks so much! Please keep them coming,you help make this a great place to be.....You are never judgmental or accusatory and I much appreciate that...

There's many here I don't often agree with yet like to read their point of view and learn from them, food for thought I figure that their perspectives come from a more sincere, thoughtful place than the predictable pols and talking heads in the media spewing the party talking posts..

Jamie, please explain, why wouldn't you have voted for the bill today?

Chloe - I think just about everybody here wants to hear what you think - that's why you get so many responses.

Gag me.

Flatus - wow. would I mind if you re-posted me? isn't it obvious i love to be listened to, and flattered to boot! I am honored, and espcially so because I think highly of your opinions.

KGC - thanks so much for sending that puppy post along. The dog is really beautiful. As to Woolsey, I think you're right about Woolsey altho I never thought about it. She could be a really good leader. She is not afraid to go against greedy people.

Sturge - Yes, yes, yes, for the auditions for a new god.
I loved that post of yours and forgot to say so. Surely a god who is on the side social darwinists is not easy to accept.

Also, Sturge, since I did not see Krugman on msnbc, can you continue with your reactions - few more details?

Michigan voters favor marijuana for medical purposes:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080929/NEWS06/80929078

Forget being a Red State or a Blue State....Michigan voters want us to become a GREEN State!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152209

Hey Dog
I'm a self-professed Dem turned Independent also!! Its good position to be in.I doubt I will ever vote Republican but the Dem's have done nothing this election cycle to deserve my continued membership in the party......Imo

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152335

Sea,

The principal reasons are that the majority of the benefits go to the guys who got us into this mess in the first place. The Dems were able to get some concessions of bankruptcy protection, mortgage renegotiation, minor executive compensation reductions etc. to try to make it bitpartisan, but not nearly enough to offset the shower of goodies for the already well off.

This bailout is unfortunately necessary purely from the standpoint of global economics and viability of the dollar. I probably could have had my arm twisted into voting with hopes of coming back after the election to push through additional legislation that would assist the middle class that is getting royally screwed, but they would have had to do some pretty fancy talking.

I just haven't run into that many people that care about my opinion).

Posted by: chloe

Chloe, if that was a pre-requisite for posting here, this place wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.

Thanks Jamie, What would you suggest to aid the middle class?

My Dem Congressman voted Yes today so since me and R Reich were not in class together I guess that's a good thing??

*Tosses sense of humor to all*

How about THIS one! From Local News:

Typo Will Cost Michigan County $40K:

Ottawa County will pay about $40,000 to correct an embarrassing typo on its Nov. 7 election ballot: The "L" was left out of "public."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1X6RQLZtoA

the dark bailout

anyone know how Clyburn and DeMint and L. Graham voted? or where I can look?

The biggest one was giving bankruptcy judges the ability to renegotiate mortgages to try to keep people from losing their homes. These aren't people who were flipping homes for greater and greater profits, they are people who are losing their homes because their jobs have been outsourced or medical bills have swamped the family. They need time to reestablish their financial lives. As it is, their credit is being ruined and they are losing their major asset.

Some legislation to circumscribe Boards of Directors from voting each other humongous salaries without stockholder votes. Not quite sure how this one could be done, but in the last 25 years we have gone from CEOs making 40 times the average worker to 500 times the average worker ... all because they sit on each others boards and vote each others compensation.

If Warren Buffet can get preferred stock for 5 billion, the US government should certainly be able to do something similar for 700 billion.

Payments should be staggered. Give them the first 200 billion and then wait a bit for the effect. before giving them another 200 billion etc. See where you need to apply the bandaids to stop the bleeding before you pass out bandaids.

I'm sure I could think of other things. Basically, the money needs to infuse from the bottom up not the top down except for what is necessary to get some liquidity in the credit market.

Sturgeone

Here is the final vote tally

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

Thanks, maybe you've got the wrong job Jamie, you ought to be in DC.

I came home from work to the frightening news of the failure of the bailout. After listening to some of the commentary on this bailout I find that those who voted against the bailout had much more thoughtful reasons for voting against it and even though Nancy may have been mentioned, she wasn't the real reason.

Some expert on Lou Dobbs said that there was no testimony to Congress from experts. That amazed me. We are going to let Congress make this decision without hearing any testimony from experts. That would take too long? A big decision like this with just a bunch of fear mongers leading it?. I am sure those fear mongers are not only influencing the politicains but are also influencing the Markets.

I have more respect for those who did stand up against it. Some did consult with experts. Shelby mentioned he had letters from 200 experts warning against the bailout solution. From what I hear of this plan it sounds horrible. I know they can do better. .

This entire mess feels just like the run up to the Iraq war, lets just rush and do it or else doomsday. Unlike the war, this time Obama can't say I didn't have anything to do with it or maybe he can because he has kind of avoided it by saying he was sharing principles he wanted to include in the package. He is leaving himself room to go either way. Almost like voting present. McCain was no better. Neither has impressed me on the issue.

Help me understand this. Why does Obama automatically get higher ratings on economy? Is it just because he isn't a Republican? Because he wasn't there to make decisions in the past? What is it? How do we know he will be better? They are all having to learn some tough lessons.

Personally I still don't like either candidate and neither has helped with this mess and one of them will have to be dealing with it soon. I may just end up voting present for this election.

Carol, IMHO,

Look it up on your local paper on-line. The Detroit Free Press posted who voted for and against the bailout in Michigan. Pete Hoekstra (R) from Holland voted against it.

Jamie....is there a senate roll somewhere also?

Craig - The prez's bankruptcy is pathetically evident to even himself judging by that terrified look on his face that the camera caught just before his speech the other night. At first I thought he was going to announce a nuclear attack since he was so scared - not nervous, just plain flatout-of -his-skull scared.

Speak for yourself - I was speaking for myself. I said,
"I think...." I said what I thought. I made no claim on your behalf, or anyone else's - it was all about my opinion.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulty in swallowing. Does Prilosec help with that?

STurgeone

No Senate vote. They can't vote until the bill passes the house. Since it went down, there will be no Senate vote.

ah ha........bunch of senators wiping their brows......lol

In case you weren't watching Rachel

Britains M I 6 is hiring on Facebook. If anyone wants to be James Bond, here's your chance.

Corey? :-)

DOW fell 777 today. Good omen!

Hey UB, maybe I should head out to the crap tables. :-)

Jamie - I can't argue with any of your suggestions. Thanks for posting them. As long as we're going to be going over this for awhile longer, here's hoping these will get attention.

This is going to be a deep recession. It is going to last about five to six years. The market lost all of the value it gained since Bush took office today. Even if they finally pass some kind of rescue legislation, cleaning up the mess will take time, particularly with the National debt Bush has run up.

"Bush's White House has gone belly up"

It was on it's way as far back as 2002, I'd say. Damn, I should be a prognosticator but no one ever listens to me.

Thank God for KO. I listened to some Conservative radio today, and they were blaming the DEMS! No matter what those guys can SPIN.

KO validated my deer in the headlights reaction.

Those Conservatives are psychotic.

tt

OSH

If you're out there,
If I were a democrat I would have voted against the bill.
, mainly because why should I be the only one that behaves like an adult.

How bad is the credit market? Not very if you have good credit. In the mail today one credit card that I've not been using sent me an offer of money for a year at 0%, which in real terms after transfer fees will end up around 3% not bad. Also an offer for an unsecured loan at around 7%.

Lets see if I took them up on it I could loan the money on the Buffet plan and get 10% plus stock options.
If I was just a little bolder I would be rich instead of just good looking.

Why is wall street panicking?
For the first time in their lives they realised the term let the market decide applies to them and they don't like it.

Jack

Thursday night will be a dilly.

tt

Night all.

If I had some money laying around I didn't mind loosing I would stick it in a S&P 500 fund. It would beat the craps table in both upside and down.

Jack

Jack,

Gimmick. I got the same offer but I have a small (3K) balance at .089 and all they're doing is wanting to lock that in for a longer period. That's the only way some of these banks are making any money. Fees etc.

Knock on wood, I have no immediate concerns too, BUT I know there are many small businesses that operate on 30 day net and their customers are doing the same. It becomes a big domino of financial problem for small businesses especially if they need a short term loan and there's any blemish on their FICO. I've had to do it and thank go I didn't have a payroll.

That's just one small example .I 'm sure i could come up with several.

This administration is going out with a whimper. Bush's speech last week was strikingly uninspiring. You can see in his eyes he can't wait to get back to Crawford and leave behind the mess he in large part helped create.

"It would beat the craps table in both upside and down."

Jack,
You got that right! DearWife, daughter and myself sure are glad others don't realize it.

Rez

That is what my wife amex card would like here to do. As she uses it for business travel and pays it off. It carries a high interest rate on balances carried over. The high rates stay on the card while the 0 rate gets paid off. There is always a gimmick. As i tell my wife ask for a list of fees and look for the loop holes.

Jack

Three of our four Oregon Democrats in the House voted against the bailout bill today. They all have been there too long.

Democrat Darlene Hooley and Republican Greg Walden voted yes.

Rez

I've been busy the last week moving my fatherinlaw into an assisted living apartment.
I've been sorting through his papers, it looks like he found himself a buddy who would drive him to the boats to gamble.

He went through around 10,000 dollars of his wifes life insurance in the year since she died.

What can you do?
Lonely old fool.

I told the wife we're not going to be that way. We are going to plan ahead. She just laughed and said "sure we will, as if we ever planned for anything"

lol

Jack

night all

Jack

Jack,

You don't live for ever and you can't take it you. I bet he had a good time flirting with the girls; dealers and waitresses.

Rez if McCain is elected there will be nothing left to take!

Damn I know it! Bad for business.:)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152286

KGC, this was the reason why Plunger and his mistress/wife flew with McCain to the debate on Friday. He was lobbying for the entire flight to get his money...after all, who better to make money off of a tragedy than Rudy

Wow,

Looking at the polling data on the real clear site, I'm amazed to see Obama pop 50% in as many states as he has...

Send a letter:

http://votenobailout.org/

tt

Bear, BushCo jumped the shark for the last time, today. Not surprising that Obama's up so much in the polls.

Most folks are confused about the bail out bill and WTH the Repubs are doing or not doing.

tt

My financial crisis is resolved. I just walked my dogs and found seventeen dollars scattered on the sidewalk a few hundred yards from home.

Hooray, Dex.

Way to go! lol

tt

Ehud Olmert, outgoing Israeli boss, says some shocking things in this Times story. Olmert, a former right winger, now souinds progressive..what a turn-about!
Remember a few months ago when Obama promised he would fight for Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem, saying it was so very important? Now Olmert says that is a bad idea and must be stopped! This story is simply incredible... Olmert has seen the light, but all it is going to do is make it all the harder for his successor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/world/middleeast/30olmert.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

yeah tiptoe...HEY ! Let's go drink it up! Yee-Haw !!!!

Just read the blog Craig...
I don´t know, but are you suggesting "karma"?
I mean you say: this happens when you lie.. I find it rather odd that you suggest that though.... This is politics; all the politicians lie to a certain degree.. That is thier job. LOL... Let us not pretend that GWB invented it.....

Anyway,
This is exactly what happens when we as a country live to big. We, as a country, want too much and we consume consume consume.... This is what happens to a GREEDY nation like the US and a nation that wants to be the big brother in the world, but in fact is just a big bully that acts as a spoiled brat.

I know people will hate me for saying this: but served you right USA. Served you right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was taught to save before I spend, but in this country we are taught to spend spend spend before even considdering saving... This ain´t over crew, it ain´t over. We are in the midst of a crisis that will forever change the face of our wold. I said this six months ago, and I will repeat it again.

And typically both BO and JmC are trying to politicize this happeninng over and over again. SAD...When will we learn...???? Not yet, because we have elected two morons as the presedential candidates for the two major parties.
One who has no clue what so ever in how to handle the word ecoenomy, and the other who thinks he is Gods great gift to mankind and acts accoridngly

On the other hand. My dissertation is finished. I handed it in yetserday evening!

Sorry, if I sound angry... I AM! I am, because my nation, the country I love, is just piling up mistakes and facing the worst disaster ever...and still we blame everyone else but OURSELVES!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/09/bushs-political-bankruptcy.html#comment-152209

Hey Dog
I'm a self-professed Dem turned Independent also!! Its good position to be in.I doubt I will ever vote Republican but the Dem's have done nothing this election cycle to deserve my continued membership in the party......Imo

Posted by: tonyb39 | September 29, 2008 9:25 PM

Welcome to the ever expanding group Sir.... Enjoy your stay and whilst at it: be independent and look at every person or candidate with an open view..... Although I won´t vote Johnny Mac I am more and more trying to find what good things he has doen and not just degrade him out of being a bitter gun and religion clinging dem. :-)

Bear - I assume Plunger is Rudy - is so, may I ask why?

Well, here is one who would have voted against the bill 100%!
This bill is just putting a band aid on a wound that in 3 days again will continue bleeding (although under teh band aid it will continue bleeding, howvere it will not be visible)
Come on guys, can´t you come up with something better?

Where is the SEC in this one and where is the involvement of the ESCB? The FED and Paulson cannot do this on thier own.....

By the way
The Dutch AEX index had "Black Monday" yesterday.
The biggest one day plunge in more than twenty years.. Losing nearly 9% of it´s value....
It was the index that lost the most yesterday.
All big banks lost. Fortis down 23%, ING down 18% and Aegon down 15%.....

John McCain and Baracik Obama are fools. Their actions during this financial crisis indicate that neither is cable of being an effective President of the United States.

Those of you who supported either of these morons should be ashamed.

Jason

Congratulatons on finishing your dissertation. So when is the south american trip? go for it..
Bet your parenta are proud of you.

Julie

Hey Julie..

Thanks.
Well, I just handed it in. Now the comittee will read and set a date for me to defend it...... Am a little scared I have to say....I think that will happen at the end of October or early November. Will defend in Holland however and not in the US.
the trip will be in December... can´t wait.

Parents are proud but not bragging about it. Very laid back and saying that it is God who chose me to do this and I should be very humble, which I am....

Oregon Democrat,

I can understand your criticism of john mczany, what with his changing his mind every few minutes, getting caught fibbing, and taking credit for things that haven't happened. If that shows the value of experience, we really don't need any. However, I fail to understand your criticism of the unflappable Obama, unless, you simply oppose the bailout, and fault him for supporting it. Btw, didn't Senators Clinton, Biden, and Dodd vote 'Aye', also?

Right now, it looks as if Obama will win every state that Kerry won, plus VA, IA, CO, and NM. That would put him over the top, 286 - 252, the margin by which bush beat Kerry in '04.

If people keep moving his way, Obama could also add FL, NC, OH, IN, MO, and NV, making 89 more. That would give Obama a maximum of 375 - 163, almost the margin by which Clinton/Gore beat Dole/Kemp in '96. Of course, at this moment, supposing that any of these 6 battleground states will turn blue is mere fancy on my part, but a fella can dream, can't he ?

One more squirrel.........lol

ha, good one sturg

Good appearance, Craig.

Red pepper really doesn't work--Bengay works better. A combination of ingredients--spice along with lots of messy greasy stuff.

And, of course, squirrels are rodents and that opens the doors to a whole bunch of commercial solutions.

What, the Chinese try to pull a fast one on us?? I don't think you should have given Mrs Pelosi a pass--her performance was pathetically inept. And, she's second in line? That, I lose sleep over.

Yesterday evening our daughter Toots called. Told us she was taking a day off on Wednesday. Wants to come over and do the dusting for us. I happily accepted; didn't have the heart to tell her that Stinky and I did it yesterday morning.

squirrel launch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPFErQGFTCM&feature=related

Dex, saw where you had the $17 windfall. Made me think about Mister 880. Just happened to find 17 one dollar bills. Yeah, right.

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