Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Wow, first! I'm almost at a loss for words, almost.......The summer of mockery, how appropos, isn't that what Obama and his campaign are about, mocking people who have accomplishments. Since they have none of their own, they have to belittle those who do.

It might be helpful to him if just once he would add a little sustance to the word change. If people could understand what the word "change" was referencing, they might not feel he was such a risk.........I'm getting to the point now that when I hear the word "change" I look to see if I've spilt something on myself......

Rita

....That should read substance, not sustance. But in his case anything added would be a marked improvement.......

Rita

"...nothing to fear but fear itself..."

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrfirstinaugural.html

Here's a campaign video Slate bets you've never seen:

http://www.slate.com/id/2196350/

I would say it is the summer of "APPEASEMENT ONE" and 'WITHDRAWAL TWO", the official air force of Obama and the Democ"rat"ic Party.

VJ Machiavelli
http://www.vjmachiavelli.blogspot.com

It will be interesting to see the reporting that will be done on Obama while he is in Hawaii. There are very few press stories about Obamas time in Hawaii. I don't think I ever saw a picture of where Obama lived while in high school.

These videos just keep gettin' better and better!

Obama is still facing a bit of mockery from the Clinton's as well. I doubt that the McCain camp minds.

It's not like the McCain camp has a snowball's chance in hell of getting that flyboy freak into the white house so who cares........IMO

This is a representative democracy.......so I am most comfortably represented by the folks I choose.....Bill and Hillary. So their lead I'll follow......not religiously, but generally by and large........so if they are really, actually, genuinely mocking obama.........I can dig it.

and everyone else can go and take a flying leap at the moon.

I've seen a few of these contests and studied about many more......some I won some I lost.......not a problem............from Ike v Truman in 54 to the current rhubarb.........they will make it work somehow or another the same way Kerry and Gore did......or it's all junk to begin with......and I say there comes a time when you say, "enough".

Hillary 08,

No like? Tough.

the last contest which I felt personally was when simon de montfort lost at the hands of longshanks. That was a sore loss...........after that, the rest is more like theater........not GOOD theater, but nevertheless.......

Love it, Craig,

The Political Dark Arts.

*L* So true.

tt

I thought for sure Craig was gonna be walking into a Trail Mixer's home. LOL!

Amen, Sturge!

This is nuts; I'm totally excited over the fact that there could be a roll call......The only thing that could make me feel better is if Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice were made to stand in the World Court in the Hague , charged with war crimes. I say the world court because it would go a long way to mending our reputation and proving our love for justice around the world.

Sturge's exuberance has become infectious.....so I will ask an old english question.......A few decades after Longshanks, Richard III, The Duke of Glouster was accused of killing the princes - his nephews in the tower and usurping the throne. Why would Richard have to kill the princes when he, as regent, had the marriage of Edward IV and Katherine Woodville called illegal and the children made bastards because of Edward's prior betrothal promise to Eleanor, the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. Bastards could not inherit, so it made Richard the legitimate heir. There was no need for him to kill them.

However, when Henry Tudor won the war against Richard at Barnet. He took the throne and to legitimize his possession of it decided to marry Elizabeth Plantagenet, eldest daughter of Edward and Kate Woodville. To do this the children had once more to be legitimized, consequently he had more reason to kill the princes than Richard ever did. The story about the wicked uncle just doesn't make sense.

What say you Monfort's man????.............

Rita

RE Hillary Clinton.. this is very interesting

Clintons' role at convention 3:47
Panelists weigh in on Bill and Hillary Clinton's roles at the Democratic National Convention.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/08/06/hillary.clinton.avail.cnn

Makes me even more impressed with Hillary. Suggest you watch the video and share your thoughts...

Tom

Craig, brilliant video, clever...and spot on !!!

Craig, It sounds as though you've learned to not take the game too seriously, while expecting the worst. I'm sure they'll deliver.

Tom,
Thanks for that Hillary link.
She never fails to amaze me with her sincerity and how well she thinks on her feet. Her focus always seems to be where it belongs.

politicallypissed,
It's really nice to hear more from you.
I almost always agree with what you say.

...so if they are really, actually, genuinely mocking obama.....I can dig it. sturgeone

Me too Sturge.

Tony, I left you a post on the last thread. I thought it was really sweet the way you stood up for the women here. Thanks.

Now I need to get some things done.

Yes, thanks for that link Tom. Very good. And Rita -- Like Chloe, I've been really enjoying your posts.

In fact, I really loved this thought from the last thread:

"I can imagine Obama's being a very good president, but at the same time I can imagine his being so-so or even not-so-good. If he is the latter, I'm afraid no one will want to admit it and he'llslide into another term. There is so much riding on his ability to win, and then to be good that it is beyond unsettling."

Rita

When my grandmother died 31-years ago at the age of 98, one of the things she left behind was a book titled 'The Last Plantagenets'. She'd been reading it while she was in her middles 90s.

Inside the book was a sheet of paper in which she had written down all the intertwined relationships. This was done in her beautiful hand that made shame of all the rest of our scribblings. She graduated college in 1901 then taught in a one-room school. She'd tell me how she rode her horse to school and how the older boys would tend to it.

Sometime during the '60s she and my grandfather (they died two weeks apart) were reading the Sunday Plain Dealer when she suddenly pointed out a picture in the paper, "There's my classroom!" Indeed it was and it was being reconstructed in the regional historical society's museum.

That was "3-D House of Pancakes" scary. (Not the political aspect. Just the part with Craig near an open flame.)

Good background music for today's video - Elvis Costello's "Beyond Belief"

"History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies the same defeats
Keep your finger on important issues
With crocodile tears and a pocketful of tissues
I'm just the oily slick..."

The main above-the-fold story in this morning's Journal is on the military tribunal's rebuke of the Bushies. It's a really good read:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121811582864120531.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news

Michael Gerson, on Craig's topic in today's Wash Post op/ed section:

"since Obama's short public career has been conventionally -- in some cases, extremely -- liberal, his tactical shift to the center has been startlingly obvious, on issues from guns to terror surveillance to Iraq, and now (reluctantly) to oil drilling. Says Peter Wehner of the Ethics and Public Policy Center: "Obama's political calculation may be correct, but it still involves a price. It has shattered his claim to be different. It calls into question his political character and leaves the impression he is consumed and defined by ambition."

At least temporarily, Obama's tactics have raised a damning political question: Who is this man? And the McCain campaign has begun to cleverly exploit these concerns, not with a frontal attack on his liberalism or his flip-flops but with a humorous attack on his "celebrity" -- really a proxy for shallowness. The argument is powerful: McCain has roots and convictions. Obama has fans and paparazzi. And Obama's European trip -- more Princess Diana than John Kennedy -- served only to confirm these impressions."

Here's the link to the Washington Post piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/07/AR2008080702899.html

It's about time some of the MSM catches up with the rest of us.

" She graduated college in 1901 then taught in a one-room school. She'd tell me how she rode her horse to school and how the older boys would tend to it."

What a wonderful memory, Flatus! My father (born in 1903) had to quit school in the sixth grade to go to work full time. My mother (born in 1906) got to go to a couple of years of college and then taught in a one-room school. My father became a self-educated man, and was enormously proud of mother's college -- after their five girls were all of a certain age, he encouraged mom to go back, finish her degree, and also take graduate classes.

After she started back teaching school, Dad found out about a country sale going on that included some things from that old one room school house. You should have seen my mom's face light up when Dad carried in the bookcase/podium she'd taught from back when she was eighteen years old!

I have that in my living room, next to a quilt my daughter made me -- a geographic pattern reflecting "Kansas by air."

Patsi!

Aren't we lucky??

Flatus -- here's a pic of my dad working on his future father-in-law's farm in around 1925.

http://practicallyperfectpatsi.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/dadandtom1.jpg

Thanks, Patsi, thats a great picture. It's not hard to tell how he won your mom's hand.

Oh Flatus -- that love story is a funny one. The first time my mom saw him he was in the barbershop getting a haircut and she saw him sitting in the chair. She was home from college and he'd started working for my grandfather. Mom told her younger sister he was the most handsome man she'd ever seen.

Her sister said, "Well, we aren't allowed to talk to him. He's papa's best hired hand, but his daddy is Australia Bale (a Dodge City bad hat) and he runs around with women!"

My mom said, "Well, Papa better buck up because I'm going to marry him!"

Flatus,
When I read your 7:45 post, I enjoyed it so much that I read it to my hubby too. I told him that it is a perfect example of why I keep coming back here. You've been sharing a lot of nice stories and I, for one, appreciate it.

Of course, Patsi's humor is another reason I like it so much here too.
Patsi, I guess your sisters getting here this weekend, huh? Enjoy!

A Catharsis in Denver?

"For 40 years, conventions have just been big TV shows that coronate nominees, and this year's festivities aren't going to be any different. But the extraordinary closeness of the Democratic contest and recent comments by Hillary and Bill Clinton have the media in a tizzy. Could we see a donnybrook in Denver after all?

As for Hillary, she would have much more leverage over Obama if he wins and needs her help to get his agenda through the Senate. Should John McCain be vanquished, the Clinton-Obama dance will keep us riveted for years to come."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/151388

" The Democrats appear to be getting their Clintons in a row. "

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/bill_clintons_night_at_party_c.html

I've always been a bit puzzled when the obots refer to a candidate's supporters as "fans".

I guess it reveals a mindset in which policy is secondary to personality.

Hey, something occurred to me yesterday. I'm only 6 years older than BO. We fall into the same age demographic in some of the major polls. How come I'm an old dead-ender and he'a young and vibrant?

"The Times' Peter Nicholas reports this morning that a senior Democrat familiar with the convention scheduling said Clinton had agreed and been scheduled for Aug. 27."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/bill-clinton.html

"DHL deal gone sour haunts McCain in Ohio"

"Wiping away her tears, she told the presumptive Republican presidential nominee how a controversial corporate deal he backed in 2003 as chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee -- the sale of Airborne Express cargo service to a German conglomerate that owns DHL and the subsequent expansion of the air freight hub here -- had gone horribly wrong."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-campaign8-2008aug08,0,4031248.story

Chloe -- yes, my sister is starting the drive today and will spend the night somewhere in Missouri, then drive on in tomorrow. I'm really excited, haven't seen her for over a year even though we talk several times a week. She is one of my favorite people in this world.

Patsi, you and I are so fortunate.

On my grandfather's side of the family, my ggmother was a cockney immigrant, and my ggfather came from northern Ireland.

They had six sons, four of whom decided to go into business together. They figured out that they had to have one of the brothers who could be the face of their business in dealings with potential customers. The chosen one was my grandfather. He was sent to Adelbert College of Western Reserve graduating in 1901. My grandmother attended Mather College of the same university.

Grandpa decided he would learn the name of every student in his college, and he did. He was captain of the football team and played clarinet in the band. He stopped going back to homecoming celebrations after his 75th--he was the last of his class.

When I went through his papers I discovered that he was major contributor to the university. something that he never made a point of.

In any case, all the boys had sound classical educations despite only one of them going to college. Their business thrived and became a major manufacturer.

My grandmother came from an old American family with roots established around the time of the Pilgrims. She was one of several very attractive sisters. My grandfather's love for her was palpable, something obviously recognized by her family. They married in 1902, and my father, like yours, was born in 1903.

Patsi and Flatus: great stories about your parents. Like Patsi's recollections about her dad; loved that story about his response to the uncle's car getting damaged and his visit to the barn where Patsi had taken refuge. Great guy.

Be forewarned: am here to take issue with the Gerson WaPost column Patsi put up earlier.

Patsi's comment last evening when I put up an item from Andrew Sullivan's blog: "Sullivan has been a weenie carrying water for conservatives for years. Why would ANYONE read his crap?

(Since you asked, I read his stuff because Sullivan is a Republican who endorsed John Kerry, and tried mightily to warn the public of Bush-Cheney incompetence and unconstitutional, even criminal actions.)

Today, you put up a WaPost op ed by Michael Gerson. Theme: why isn't Obama doing better against McCain? McCain's in tune with Americans on energy policy. Obama is tacking to the center, and thus has lost his; McCain is painting , the Berlin trip as more Princess Di than JFK.

Please note:

Gerson was GW Bush's head speechwriter for years (2001-06, the glory years) and was added to the Post page as a conservative, evangelically aligned voice (by Fred Hiatt, WaPost neocon enabler par excellence).

Per his Wiki bio, he worked previously for the Heritage Foundation, was speechwriter for Bob Dole's presidential campaign, ghostwriter for convicted Watergate figure Charles Colson, recruited to the White House by Karl Rove.

Gerson's childhood political hero was Jimmy Carter, although he left the Democratic party over abortion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gerson

This just does not sound like the usual expert Patsi hauls out as an authority. If you are broadening your horizons, go for it.

And of the two, I'd take my chances with Andrew Sullivan. (Although Gerson's known for being a a very nice guy. On the Tony Snow model.)

Lagniappe: the expert he quotes within -- Peter Wehner on Obama's lack of a discernible center ("shattered his claim to be different; calls into question his political character and leaves the impression he is consumed and defined by ambition") -- has worked for every GOP admin since Reagan, and is former speechwriter for William Bennett and GW Bush.

From lecture agency, on Wehner's potential topic and expertise: Lessons from Governing

Having served in three different Republican Administration – including key White House posts during the intense, eventful days after 9/11, the lead up to war, and the hard-fought 2004 presidential campaign – Pete Wehner recounts the lessons he’s learned and the memorable people he’s encountered.
==============

Not saying Gerson and Wehner don't have valuable comments on McCain and Obama respectively. You can usually piece together the truth from a variety of sources, and they may have some genuine insight.

But doubt you would take Gerson or Wehner at face value on Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton or any Democrat you admire, so why assume they are objective and clear-sighted on Obama?

==========

Last: please stick with the family stories! Am enjoying them! But didn't want to see anyone running with the Gerson story without knowing its provenance.

A tragic day for Detroit

"City becomes casualty in Kilpatrick's continued self-destruction
The Kilpatrick scandal has been a meat grinder, shredding the region's hopes and setting us back to our darker days of frustration, divisiveness and despair.

But what else can we expect? Kilpatrick's stubborn refusal to just leave and let us get about the business of healing is wearing us all out."
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080808/OPINION03/808080377

Why Their Economic Plans Don't Add Up

"...And in part because of last spring's $168 billion stimulus, the federal deficit will rise to nearly $500 billion next year, almost three times fiscal 2007 levels..."

A rocky economy means the gap between campaign promises and governing realities may be larger than ever this year. Come January, the next President will have to take a much clearer stand as to where his priorities truly lie. The problem for voters is that it is impossible now to tell which of many competing goals Obama or McCain will back when the time comes to move from campaigning to governing. In either case, Americans will likely get much less than what's being offered in the heat of the campaign."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_33/b4096050652985.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_news+%2B+analysis

Have a good day all.

dog -- of course Gerson is a Republican commentator. I don't put him in Sullivan territory though.

"Last: please stick with the family stories! Am enjoying them! "

ROFL! I called an old political friend in Denver a few months back and said that one poster on this board said I should stick to talking about country music and recipes. The friend is still laughing. Now you come along and give me permission to tell family stories.

Oh the irony that someone who spent years publishing a political/feminist magazine is now told by O-bots she should stick to recipes.

Just more cosmic superiority I guess.

mornin' all.

Corey - Namath was certainly not the greatest QB to ever play the game or the most accurate passer, and as he got older and his mobility limited him more, he got much worse wrt his production and accuracy - after all a qbs legs are a big part of his throwing accuracy. Aside from his undisputed ablility early in his career to lead his team to a level their talent wouldn't suggest they were capable of, his greatness was in the intangibles - and he, as much as any player, transformed the position of QB in the NFL to one of team leader (and that is not to diminish the roles Starr and Unitas played in that transformation). At least that's my take on Namath.

Patsi: that was not a swipe. I was genuinely enjoying the interchange between you and Flatus. You both write well and the stories are genuine and not sentimentalized.

You need not see a putdown everywhere you turn; it's not accurate or helpful.

The McCain campaign is mocking Obama because they have nothing else to run on. McCain's message so far is : I'm not Obama.

"Just more cosmic superiority I guess."

guess again

Oh, god, if you haven't read Krugman's column today , do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to the link and read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/08/opinion/08krugman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

pogo: that's a find!

Krugman: The [Republican] party’s de facto slogan has become: “Real men don’t think things through.”

Also loved "the true cost of obliviousness."

But this was scary:

"Sad to say, the current drill-and-burn campaign is getting some political traction. According to one recent poll, 69 percent of Americans now favor expanded offshore drilling — and 51 percent of them believe that removing restrictions on drilling would reduce gas prices within a year.

The headway Republicans are making on this issue won’t prevent Democrats from expanding their majority in Congress, but it might limit their gains — and could conceivably swing the presidential election, where the polls show a much closer race."
===================

Sheila, dnd and I talked with some Republicans we met at a restaurant in Colorado in May; they were sure that all we need to do in the energy crisis is open ANWR and offshore to drilling. It's got all the oil we need for the rest of our lives. They were sure of that.

The Politifact Flip-o-Meter

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/flip-o-meter/

Re: Gerson's piece - yes he's a repug, and yes, he's viewing the race from that perspective, but it seems to me to be a pretty accurate take on the two campaigns. There are throwaway sentences taking gratuitous shots at Obama that I take issue with, but on the whole, I think Gerson has hit on the major direction and theme of the two campaigns. When you throw the perspective of Krugman into the mix, there's a balance that seems to me to get a good handle on not only the campaigns, but on why Obama hasn't been able to break out yet.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/the-august-horror.html#comment-125654

PP:

Touring the Tower of London would be no fun if the Yeoman-guides couldn't scare the wits out of small children with the story of ...U-N-C-L-E-R-I-C-H-A-R-D!

I think it's too early to see a breakout; after the conventions you might see some movement. Too many people exposed to a too long campaign; will tune back in once it's fall.

If the media wanted to re-enforce the facts to the American public that off-shore-drilling won't produce a decrease in pricing for ten years, and at that time, it may only amount to 3 cents per gallon - then American most likely would not support it as a solution.

The media is equally at fault for all the vagueness. The various media outlets turn around -twist upside down the words and comments made by politicians and experts, and make news out of it....and then have the gall criticize the non-answer answer.

http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/bensargent

I like the family histories too...far more informative and even interesting than most bickering and back-biting that passes for discussion.

"The Guantanamo tribunal on Wednesday convicted Salim Hamdan of providing material support for terrorism by working as a driver and occasional armed bodyguard and weapons courier for bin Laden in Afghanistan from 1996 to November 2001."

The MSM would have you believe Salim Hamdan was nothing more than maybe a hanger-on, a gopher, a wannabe, a no-body, just a hapless fellow who got arrested because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. But he was not only OBL's driver , he was also part of OBL's bodyguard team, and on the day of his arrest there were 2 surface to air missiles found in the trunk of his car. Mr Hamdan, also known as Saqr al-Jaddawi, joined the Yemeni branch of the Egyptian militant group Islamic Jihad before al-Qa'ida was formed. A faction of this group is allegedly led by bin Laden's chief aide, Ayman al-Zawahri, and merged with organizations led by bin Laden and others to form al-Qaida in 1998. He is said to have been bin Laden's driver between February 1996 and 24 November, 2001. But for being OBL's driver the rest of the information has not been reported since news that he was arrested. Why is the US spending some much time and money trying a sometimes driver?

There is a simple answer to this, because he is part of AQ, and AQ has only one goal, and that is to destroy the West. If you believe the MSM, AQ is gathering more and more true believers, and they have more members now then ever. If true, one has to ask themselves, what is AQ doing with all these new raw, eager to kill Western in the name of Allah, recruits? AQ has been very quiet for months, no sensational mass killings, nothing, just an occasional rambling statement from OBL, or AQ's 2nd in command, and hopefully the late, Ayman al-Zawahiri. This makes me wonder what AQ is planning, because if we remember nothing else about AQ, we know they plan, and they plan well. When they are the most quiet is when they are in their planning stages. They have been quiet way to long.

dog, you may be right, but until Obama moves from a reactive campaign mode to an assertive one, it will remain too early until it is too late. McCain is on the offensive, and it's paying off for him - he looks like, right or wrong on the issues, he's taking positions on them and wis willing to implement those positions. The voters are responding. Obama needs to adopt more of that approach IMO if he plans to win this election.

UB, true enough, but the media records and repeats - it's the campaign staff's role to project what it wants recorded and repeated. While I personally loved Obama's statement that McCain and the repugs seem to be proud of being ignorant (or something to that effect) - and I'd like to see more snarky stuff like that because I enjoy it and agree with it - I'm not the middle trying to make up my mind about which candidate I want in the WH, and I'm not the guy they need to sway. I dunno, maybe Axelrod & Co. has in mind a big push after the convention - but McCain is pushing now and there are people making their minds up now. The Olympics and the NFL preseason may distract many from politics until the conventions are over, but I don't see a winning strategy coming out of the Obama campaign at this point.

Fry, the military jury picked by the pentagon to listen to the government's case apparently didn't see in Hamdan the terrorist you see. Maybe you're right about Hamdan and maybe you're not, but in 5 months he will be free to go if he can find somewhere to go. As to AQ being too quiet for too long - I hope our intelligence agencies learned something from 9/11 and the wilfull ignorance we practiced that led to that attack and have a bit closer eye on AQ than we had up 'til then. ~~~ But then I'm told we're winning the war, so I guess things may not be so dire as you suggest. ~~~

Thought I would never be saying this, but Hilliary Clinton will be the Vice President selection for Barack Obama. Barack will need hilliary and bill to counter mccain and republican attacks which will allow obama to focus on positive and occassional attacks as he see fit. also imo Bill Clinton speech on wed before the vp speaks is a set up for Hilliary's speech as vice president. it will be an historic night, then obama speech on thursday will top everything off and he will get an huge bump in the polls. jmho

"The McCain campaign is mocking Obama because they have nothing else to run on. McCain's message so far is : I'm not Obama."

And the enlighten one's is "McCain is Bush." BHO is by far the most unqualified person to run for President. His resume` is nothing more than a water down version of Cliff Notes. There are recession and then there are depressions. This country has only undergone 1 depression, and should BHO get elected, we will be the recipients of another depression. BHO's idea of hope and change is not the kind Americans are seeking.

Today's thread on the BackChannel Blog:

Our Growing Political Polarization, by Karolenna

http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/

" that was not a swipe. I was genuinely enjoying the interchange between you and Flatus. "

That has long been a problem. I was raised to make sure if I was taking a swipe -- people knew it. As my grandmother said (quoting someone else) -- "A lady never insults anyone unintentionally."

pogo,

True, but then again murders, rapists, child pedophiles, are found not guilty in this country everyday, only to go on to murder, rape, and violate small children. Like I said yesterday, maybe should the enlighten one get elected, old Hamdan can get a job driving a cab in NYC.

"The McCain campaign is mocking Obama because they have nothing else to run on. McCain's message so far is : I'm not Obama."

I agree. Completely. Obama is VERY lucky McCain is such a poor candidate in 2008.

G'morning all!
"I would say it is the summer of "APPEASEMENT ONE" and 'WITHDRAWAL TWO", the official air force of Obama and the Democ"rat"ic Party."
- VJ Machiavelli @ 1:08 am

I guess vj macchiavelli apparently thinks that the only good appeasements are the republican ones directed toward north Korea and Sudan.

Hi everyone! I've gotten an unexpected, but blessed, lull in my summer schedule. How nice to come in here and read all this interesting stuff.

FWIW, there has been a measure of effort applied to keeping Hillary involved in the convention. There is a lot of continued grassroots effort associated with Hillary's candidacy and policies.

Right now people are working very hard to make sure certain policies make it into the DEM platform. The Equal Rights Amendment is one example. ERA was removed from the 2004 platform, now we are working to make sure it goes back in. So far, it is in the second draft. Interesting that the two "presumptive" nominees of both parties are from states (Arizona and Illinois) that still have not ratified ERA.

FryDaddy,

Ya then Hamdan can drive mark foley around trolling for boys.

Chloe
Thanks for all the kind words.Glad your here too!Its so nice waking up drinking my iced tea and reading you and all those great links.I can't Thankyou enough. Oh ya you referenced Nic earlier,miss him.

Tom
Thanks so much for the CNN Hillary link earlier,yes agreed she's the best! Hope your B-Day was a good one......

Patsi
Oh God your Priceless..You have me laughing so sometimes..Again my dogs think I'm crazy and I tell them no its just Patsi boys as I give them a treat to settle them.......Ha

pogo,

"but in 5 months he will be free to go if he can find somewhere to go."

I think you are wrong there. True his sentence will be up, but not sure that means he'll be free to leave. After all he is considered an enemy combatant, and we are still at war with that enemy. That would be like turning a Nazi back over to Germany during WWII.

dog, I am reluctant to speak for anyone but me, but my sense is that most people think "all of the above" is the right answer to the energy problem. I think that approach is too stupid by half because it ignores that priorities will be set and followed in the course of forming and implementing an energy policy, and both McCain and Obama seem to be taking opposite positions on those priorities - McCain tending toward drilling and Obama tending toward conservation and "other" (which btw I agree with). They probably both are closer to the middle than those positions suggest, but that's the impression I get from the MSM, which is where I believe most of the votes subject to swinging one way or another get their impressions.

"Our Growing Political Polarization, by Karolenna"

"Our Growing Racial Polarization," by David Duke.

I agree. Completely. Obama is VERY lucky McCain is such a poor candidate in 2008.

That was what the D's keep saying about Bush, but he sure did get his way, and is stilling getting his way.

Fry, I don't pretend to be an expert on that, but I do know what I read. According to the Pentagon spokesperson I linked to yesterday, when Hamdan was put on trial and convicted his status changed from enemy combatant . - It was from CNN.

""Hamdan is now considered a convicted war criminal and is no longer considered an enemy combatant and will be held separately from the other detainees at Guantanamo because of his new status.

"The decision by the jury will now go through a number of reviews as provided by the rules and regulations of the commission."

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman"

The difference between heim and the Nazi war criminals was that they were not tried until the war was ove and Germany had surrendered. This is not the same kind of war - he is not an enemy combatant by virtue of his serving in the army of a coutry against whom we have declared war, and since the war is against a concept that could be in existence ad infinitum rather than an identified enemy who can actually be defeated, I doubt that even our court would agree that the member of a group we claim is part of the larger enemy can be held forever.

I'm growing comfortable with the idea of the convention being used as the Clinton's swan song. It makes sense, Tuesday and Wend. a send off to the old guard, Thursday night for change and the new guard taking charge. It works!

please excuse the numerous typos.

I don't think Hamdan will ever drive a cab in NYC - unless of course he comes illegally into the US across our porous borders and works in the underground economy. I do suspect he would remain on our terror watch list with Teddy and would have trouble getting past our crack customs and INS agents if he tried to come in legally - say as a tourist or a -gasp - student.

If the debate continues to be about Obama, we Democrats will lose.

Obama is the weakest part of our case to voters.

Oregon -- I agree and the Clinton factor can only strengthen the DEM ticket.

Pogo

I'm not going to do the searching for you because I'm not sure about the level of your interest or of your base of knowledge.

Here's my take on things. We (used to) follow the Law of Armed Conflict that is codified within the Geneva Conventions. My understanding of the intent of the Geneva Conventions is that this particular individual is an enemy combatant subject to indefinite detention. I personally don't believe he's a war criminal.

Because a war criminal is a dejure subset of enemy combatant, it seems logical that once his sentence is discharged, he should be returned to the larger group subject to indefinite detention.

The privations being experienced by the detainees, so far as I can tell, far exceed the simple detention envisioned in the Conventions.

I've had the privilege of being a jury member on a general courts martial retrial of an individual convicted of a capital offense. It was a fascinating experience. It was while I was at Leavenworth.

"Our Growing Political Polarization, by Karolenna"

"Our Growing Racial Polarization," by David Duke.

Posted by: Patsi Author Profile Page | August 8, 2008 10:59 AM

Karolenna writes an honest and innocuous essay about her experiences, and someone feels compelled to denigrate her because she represents a different political opinion. There's no way you can stretch what Karolenna wrote into any accurate comparison to any behavior David Duke has ever exhibited. This just makes me sad.

There are some who post here whose meanness truly takes my breath away. They come from both the Clinton and Obama camps. They seek to demean in the most hateful, inappropriate and immature ways possible. They don't think about their accuracy. They just write to disagree. This post by Patsi is an example, imo.

I feel certain that Dick III didnt whack the nephews. He also wasnt hunchbacked......

Posted by: a quiet observer | August 8, 2008 11:43 AM

quiet observer,
In my opinion, your post is an example of meanness that takes my breath away.

I can only guess you haven't been a quiet observer for long, or you would have a better view of what is happening here.

To those who come here only to attack, ask yourselves why you think that is necessary.

old shake just took the story like he found it.....

GLOUCESTER:
Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of York;
And all the clouds that lour'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths;
Our bruised arms hung up for monuments;
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.
Grim-visaged war hath smooth'd his wrinkled front;
And now, instead of mounting barded steeds
To fright the souls of fearful adversaries,
He capers nimbly in a lady's chamber
To the lascivious pleasing of a lute.
But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;
Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity:
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
Plots have I laid, inductions dangerous,
By drunken prophecies, libels and dreams,
To set my brother Clarence and the king
In deadly hate the one against the other:
And if King Edward be as true and just
As I am subtle, false and treacherous,
This day should Clarence closely be mew'd up,
About a prophecy, which says that 'G'
Of Edward's heirs the murderer shall be.
Dive, thoughts, down to my soul: here
Clarence comes.

flatus, I appreciate that - like I said, I don't pretend to be an expert. Your personal belief about his status as a war criminal trikes me as at odds with the public position of the pentagon and is at odds with the verdict handed down this week. It strikes me as inconsistent to take the public position expressed by Whitman, then return Hamdan to indefinite detention after he's served a sentence meted out by the military justice system to determine the guilt or innocence of the detainees and impose sentences on those found guilty of crimes against the US. If we are able to detain someone like Hamdan indefinitely, what is the point of trying him before the war is over? Under the system we devised I frankly don't understand any position other than one that represents freeing him after he serves the sentence we handed down. Are you aware of any case where an enemy combatant was tried under the Geneva Conventions before the conclusion of a conflict, was found guilty, served his sentence, then was returned to detention as an enemy combatant? I'd be interested in reading about it, but imagine it might be difficult to ferret out over the internets.

Good grief... there are some really fricken crazy people in the world:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/08/national/main4331869.shtml

White Supremacists See Hope In Obama Win
First Black President Would Trigger Backlash And Jar Whites Into Action, They Say

surprised GORDO didn't post THIS one!

but first, lunch with th' missus.

Flatus; 7:45 am ........ Thank you for the reference to "the Last Plantagenets", I have the book and I wonder whether you've read it or not?

Ivy Green; 9:59 am .... No fun touring the Tower.......would you believe, I have a lot of relatives in England and when I was there it was Xmas and people over there don't like to drive in the winter, so I spent the time with family and NEVER got to London at all, just to the Great Hall in Winchester.

Brian NYC; 10:51 am..... Touting Karolenna on the back blog, People like Karolenna are the reason there is polarization.

I agree with everyone who says Hillary would be a good VP and could only enhance the Dem. ticket, I just happen to believe she would be a better President.

Besides I'm so disgusted with the DNC and party administration that I'm not sure I believe she should waste her time on them.

History has a tendency to repeat itself.......The Earl of Warrick (The Kingmaker) went down in the dirt to the sword of Richard the III. So Kerry, Kennedy, Dean et al should perhaps look over their shoulders now and then........

Rita

Does the Geneva Conventions protect saboteurs? I think not.

Brian
Swan song.You wish cause we can't ever have anyone taking are eyes off "The One"..Here read Chloe's link from earlier...I don't think Alter is pro Clinton so you should love it..

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/the-august-horror.html#comment-125673

Sturge; 11:45 am.......Thank you, why would history make him such a villain?....... Being a Monfort man, you would know he was no where near as bad a guy as Roger Mortimer....................

Rita

Rita Karoleena is a member of the Back Channel group and ads a lot to our little group. If you don't like it, too damn bad.

spot on, quiet observer.

That may have been Patsi's ladylike behavior (see 10:51 am post) towards Karolenna, but it was not accurate or warranted.

If folks here do not want to see a parade of anonymous posters, which Craig is fine with, it would be best to respond to the thoughts expressed in a comment and not the poster's identity.

this is insane:

Posted by: a quiet observer | August 8, 2008 11:43 AM

quiet observer,
In my opinion, your post is an example of meanness that takes my breath away.

===============

Meanness? Where?

Craig could have written this post!

Did you actually read it?

Hey Rita,

I think I have rarely agreed with Karolenna but that doesn't mean she has nothing to say. I vehemently disagree with her hatred of Hillary Clinton, and have spoken out at many of her posts. However, she made a contribution to the Back Channel Blog and Brian simply announced it, as he has for all the daily contributions regardless of the author. I've read it and at least have a clearer understanding of her.

The polarization exists mostly because of the symbolic firsts of the Obama and Clinton candidacies along with the fact that the votes were so close after the primary season ended. Each side remains passionate about their candidate.

The rest of your post is, imho, SPOT ON !!!

"I agree with everyone who says Hillary would be a good VP and could only enhance the Dem. ticket, I just happen to believe she would be a better President.

Besides I'm so disgusted with the DNC and party administration that I'm not sure I believe she should waste her time on them."

Having said that, if Hillary could be Vice President, that would be another significant first for women. Ok it's second place, but that would still be amazing I think. Both Barack and Hillary would be strengthened by running together and our country would be all the better for it.

That's my opinion... and everyone is welcome to disregard it. :-)

Sturgeone: I love that speech by Richard III. Was lucky enough to see Ian McKellen delivering it at Kennedy Center many years back. Went to play twice, it was so good. Unforgettable.

chloe-
I attacked no one. I gave my opinion. I think that opinion is accurate.

all's I know about karolenna is she posted on this blog during the primaries some of the most vicious and vile vitriol against Ms Clinton, a competent and caring woman and sitting United States Senator, often in long strings of capital letters..........so as a result of that, I have no interest in whatever she has to say now, with all due respect for her right to say it.

Furthermore, chloe, if Patsi can say no wrong because you and she agree about politics, you've made my point. Thank you.

That also stands for those who support Obama and, consequently, believe his supporters can say no wrong.

2 campaigns seek 'truth' about Obama's birth
Eligibility for presidency hinges on American citizenship

"Israel Insider is reporting that analysts working separately have determined the birth certificate posted on the Daily Kos website and later on Sen. Barack Obama's "Fight the Smears" campaign website is fraudulent, and now two different actions have been launched to try and obtain the truth about the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee's birth.

The Israel Insider report said the two analysts it interviewed both have been "able to independently discern the name 'Maya Kassandra Soetoro' from artifacts left behind in the process of forging a new fake document for Barack from an image of Maya's original document." Maya is Obama's younger half-sister."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=71763

sturgeone-
I agree with your position. I don't have to agree with a poster's opinions to respect their right to post it, and I don't have to denigrate their posts just because I know they have a different political opinion than I do.

not counting brian, who is in a class of ugliness all his own, there were 3 who stood out in their capital letter hatred of Senator Clinton......Skylark, Karolenna, and Bye-Bye Billary, who now styles himself as Mr. Democrat.....

I read some years ago that an old receipt was found in the British Chancery for payment of the costs to maintain Richard III's nephews. The receipt dated from the first or second year of Henry VI's reign.

Also, Richard III was not a hunchback.

However, don't assume that I am holding a torch for Dick3. In my book, the only good plantagenet is a dead one.

GORDO's incessant posts from the right wing World Net Daily makes me laugh. I just looked at the webpage and they are offering a t-shirt for sale...

"REAGAN '80" with the '80 crossed out and "08" written in.. So I guess supporters of World Net Daily are behind a movement to resurrect Reagan. Why not? After all, Reagan is as brain dead now as he was back in 1980. Couldn't hardly do any more harm...

"Patsi's ladylike behavior (see 10:51 am post) towards Karolenna, but it was not accurate or warranted."

BS. Karo showed up here during the primaries making statements so hate filled toward both Clintons that she sounded deranged. Then, after Obama muscled his way to the presumed nomination, like Bye Bye, she shrugged and said, "Okay, now you all get in line and it'll all be sweetness and light."

Just don't disagree with Karo II or Karo I comes shrieking back .

Sturg it is SKYLARK WHO WAS THE MOST IRRITATING OF THE GROUP... And now when I hear the song SKYLARK, I DON'T ENJOY IT AS MUCH! It's a terrible pity... AT LEAST SHE ISN'T POSTING AS MUCH AS BEFORE. Those damned capital letters WERE SURE FRICKEN IRRITATING!

Euro......switch to "Popsicle Toes" and let "skylark" sleep with the fishes......

pop toes...krall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yNf2EmMewM

reagan '08. Hmm. There was a guy with no experience, and unqualified to be president. His opponents, Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale, had tons of experience.

Their posts lead me to extrapolate that FryDaddy et al, were big supporters of Carter and Mondale.( : >D ]

" .......comes shrieking back........" lol

reagan actually had the greatest of qualifications to be a gop president........An empty headed Actor...with Alzheimer's to boot. Perfect......Only bush the second comes so close to being the perfect gop president dude.............

Skylark has always been one of my favorite songs as well and I'm not giving it up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgbl_yHbKK0&feature=related

Hoagy Carmichael and Johnny Mercer can't be ruined by a screeching harriden assuming the name.

McCain.....the wrinkley old white-headed dude......is running a close third, being an out of touch wife dumping old and in the way ex-fly and party boy.

way to go, Gop...........

LOL .... thanks for the good laugh, Craig .. loved the vid with the horror theme .. so true

!:^}

a reporter on diane reims show this morning pointed out the irony of dnc scheduling a big to do celebrating the anniversary of women's right to vote at the same time taking away the right to vote for a woman at the convention.
interesting juxtaposition. sorta like the oxymoronic title "democratic" party.

Mark your calendars & get the popcorn ready.

"The planners of the Republican National Convention have bitten the bullet: They are putting two of the party's least-liked national political figures on the podium on the same night.

Vice President Dick Cheney, who in one recent poll was given a favorability rating barely half that of President Bush, will, after all, address the convention delegates along with the president on Monday, Sept. 1, the convention's opening day."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/08/cheney-conventi.html

No kidding, patd....good catch!

http://ssad.bowdoin.edu:8668/space/To+a+Skylark

Link above to complete poem......agree with jamie on this one.......even a screeching harranguist cannot lame the image of the Skylark

By Percy Bysshe Shelley, 1820

Hail to thee, blithe Spirit!
Bird thou never wert,
That from Heaven, or near it,
Pourest thy full heart
In profuse strains of unpremeditated art.

Higher still and higher
From the earth thou springest
Like a cloud of fire;
The blue deep thou wingest,
And singing still dost soar, and soaring ever singest.

In the golden lightning
Of the sunken sun,
O'er which clouds are bright'ning,
Thou dost float and run;
Like an unbodied joy whose race is just begun.

Patsi said - "BS. Karo showed up here during the primaries making statements so hate filled toward both Clintons that she sounded deranged."

If we are each to be defined by our meanest post(s), and responded to accordingly, there aren't many of us who will escape censure. I've observed a real tendency on some parts to try to define people who disagree with them by their angriest moments. There are a few here who rarely slip into such behavior - maggisd, jamie, dog's eye view, chef sheila, and others, but most of us have lost our tempers more than once, and have behaved in a very ugly manner as a result.

I really like patsi, and maggisd and jamie and dog's eye view and chef sheila and sturgeone and eurotom and corey and bunches more of you, but this list will get very long if I keep going

I'm just asking one more time for civility, and that we all think about whether or not what we're saying is accurate, or merely based on our political affiliations.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/the-august-horror.html#comment-125744

Observer,
I couldn't care less about the politics.

I read Karolenna's Backchannel post because I was curious about what someone as divisive as she could say about political polarity. Maybe she has been so shrill on this list because she feels like an political outsider in her own neighborhood. Plus, it must be awfully frustrating for her to continually go on blind dates with men who have absolutely nothing in common with her?

After reading her essay, I started to feel sorry for her. Anyone who comes packing that much vitriol can't be very happy, and her article explain a lot about her. I hope Karolenna finds another neighborhood more to her liking soon, and the companionship of an agreeable partner.

"I'm just asking one more time for civility"

That sure sounds like Sheila.

ACT NOW: Contact Hawaii Attorney General

(excerpts from sample letter)

"Attorney General Bennett,

This letter requests the attention of your office in the investigation of Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

... at least two forensics and documents experts have concluded that this image of a COLB, proffered by Sen. Obama as his true birth certificate, is a forgery (references below).

Researchers believe that Sen. Obama’s birth records in Hawaii may reveal a different legal name, perhaps as a result of an adoption and subsequent Indonesian citizenship, and that Sen. Obama may be intentionally concealing these facts from the electorate."

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/08/act-now-contact-hawaii-attorney-general/

Alicia-
I read karolenna's back channel essay, too, but I sure didn't get from it what you did. For starters, she only mentioned one blind date, not continuous disastrous dates. And I don't think there are many who post here who would enjoy the company of the man she described. Also, who really knows when they move into a neighborhood what the political affiliations of their neighbors will be. It's not something I've ever thought of when looking for a home. But it sounded to me as though karolenna enjoys her neighbors, but recognizes their political differences.

OK, the voice of reason returns - did I miss anything while I was at lunch? Civility return tot he blog? The Law of gravity get suspended? Steven Hawking finally provide a unified theory? :-)

No one ever accused me of being a fan of Percy Shelley. However, Shelley's characterization of the saccharine John Keats as a bed wetter ("that piss-a-bed, Johnny Keats") left me with sore ribs after a serious ROFLMAO event.

Jamie,
I was bumping around on the Slate site from Dex's top of the thread post and came across this Utube; reminded me of your comments about your extended family and your gen. interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw

No, voice of reason,

the angry voices of romantic intuition are still carping about Karolenna. God, it must be painful to bear such animosity for so long.

Anyway, glad you're back.

It doesn't matter what anyone says here.....there are those who never forget or forgive, who judge and pass judgment, and they are more than happy to throw nastiness in someone's face over and over and over again.

And then there are those, who can't seem to see their supporting role in the insanity......as if their hands are clean.

As long as there is denial....there will be not any resolution.

I don't know the story of the great divide, but I have witness the results, been attacked, and fought back at times. There is only one person here who I will not speak to, and it works out fine.

If you don't care for someone why converse with them or continuously call them names?

Carry on.

jmo.....

sturge, when you described one of the candidates as "an out of touch wife dumping old and in the way ex-fly and party boy" were you aware you were being quietly observed and judged on your postmanship vis-a-vis qo's "They seek to demean in the most hateful, inappropriate and immature ways possible"? ~~~to the corner with you and no tv tonight, you uncivilized cur!~~~

Well come Monday the Atlantic Journal or Magazine will start publishing over 100 in-house Clinton campaign memos dealing with the enlighten-one. I know enlighten should be capitalized, but we area dealing with a light weight.

Sturge;.......Shelley ???????

EuroTom; 12:12 pm........ Thanks for the kind words since I think we are at odds on the candidates. Karolenna, however, reminds me of Michelle Bernard (whom I posted about yesterday) only Bernard is politer, probably because she's on TV.

I agree wholeheartedly that critique is freedom of speech, but vitriol is taking advantage of a debatable situation and has no place.........

xrepublican; 12:27 pm.....Your just confusing the Plantaganets with King George, who I believe was a Hanover and German not Norman.......

QO -- Your comments prove that people can make very different conclusions after reading the same thing.

Karo's article does make a point about "The Great Sort" concerning people who want to live in places where people have similar political values, and she does conclude by saying that she's aware of neighborhoods near hers that are more left-leaning.

While she did only describe one disastrous blind date, the rest of what she wrote makes it seem like romantic/social life is lacking because of the dearth of available and amiable candidates in her geographic area.

Luckily for Karolenna, Maryland is a fairly small, and very blue, state and she could easily find happier hunting grounds only a short distance away. I would encourage her to look around in walkable towns such as Takoma Park, Greenbelt, Silver Spring, Columbia, Ellicott City for likely places for the like-minded. Even Rockville and Gaithersburg are very liberal these days. These are pretty towns where people keep their yards nice, which is what she likes.

Here is something we all need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLxTpsIVzzo

patd-
In no way was I responding to sturgeon's post. Please don't put words in my mouth, so to speak. My comments are directed toward those of us who just cannot resist trying to hurt and demean other posters.

xr, damn. I've been waiting so long for that unified theory to emerge. Back in a past life, when I was an English major, I actually liked both Keats and Shelley (Byron and Coleridge, too) - they made me feel so ... what's the word I'm searching for... oh, yeah, romantic.

good to be back , although on the whole, lunch was better.

I just had a very funny image of Shelley and Keats, decked out in their finest, having a slap fest.

I know that I am a Hillary Clinton supporter and that many of you are also. However, trying to be objective, looking at the electoral map, and seeing the closeness of the polls, I am of the opinion that Sen. Obama can easily win with Clinton on the ticket and will maybe win with anyone other than Clinton on the ticket.

My reasoning is that she is the only candidate who starts with a huge support base located principally in the battle ground states. When you look at PA, MI, OH, NH,NV, IN, FL and NM she won those states in the primaries. That does not mean that Obama could not win them without her but with her they shore up that support. I do not believe that she hurts the ticket. That is borne out by recent polling. Anyone who would not vote for Hillary would not have voted for Obama. She brings some reassurance to the ticket that Obama frankly needs.

I have nothing against the other candidates being mentioned but honestly none of them is excitiing or brings with him any WOW factor. You know what I mean when they announce the vp candidate and you go WOW what a good choice. Now that is something special.

Since I know that I am biased toward a Obama/Clinton ticket, I would like to hear from you. If you have a favorite pick then please explain why that pick would be better for Obama to win in November.

Jo -- I am with you. The Obama-Clinton Combo would be unstoppable.

I would really like to see Clinton on the ticket with Obama. If not her, Biden.

politicallypissed,

I have no beef with Hanoverians other than George III, who couldn't help himself in the presence of Lord North, and was major loopy, to boot.

Nope, the only good Plantagenet is a dead one. They were grasping, mean-spirited, extremely violent, and murderous practioners of religious intolerance. I'm glad they are all dead. From Wikipedia:

"The surname Plantagenêt has been retroactively applied to Geoffrey of Anjou and his descendants, as they themselves