Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Are we now officially a Christian nation?

"I marvel at Barack Obama's courage going into the lion's den of evangelical Saddleback Church, where the membership skews Republican.......On the other hand, that bothered me a little bit too. I'm not sure why Obama voluntarily sat down for a nationally televised conversation about his private religious faith with a relatively conservative Christian leader, as though that's a reasonable station of the cross, so to speak, for a major American presidential candidate."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_story=/opinion/walsh/election_2008/2008/08/17/saddleback/

So let me get this right. Are the Obama people now saying, if the enlighten one doesn't do well in a debate, then the McCain must have been given the answers? Or are they just admitting what I and and a number of you already know, without a teleprompter then enlighten one's favorite word is "uh".
Isn't that the real reason why Obama doesn't want to do Town Hall meetings. He just can't think on his feet when asked unscripted questions. And what isn't news is NBC has been a Obama supporter from the very start.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12594.html

Ping Pong -- You asked me why I gripe about "big business" -- here's one good op/ed on the subject of corporate America and taxes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/opinion/18mon2.html?ref=opinion

Chloe -- good article on the evangelical sideshow.

Fry -- You know better than to question his Grand Obamaness! Be quiet, drink your Kool Aid, and remember to genuflect when you speak His name.

Quote from Craig: "At the end of the night you had to wonder why the Republican and Democratic contenders agreed to subject themselves to a minister's grilling on national television. "

Obvious Craig....everyone needs the voters. And BO needs them more.
I saw little clips on youtube and BBC and was amazed at some answers. Is it me or is JmC starting to become human? Really, I think I saw some hinesty coming from him
BO was his same old self. Confident, to a degree, with the usual uhs and ahs.... Don´t think he gained much support from this showing though.....

RENO, Nev. — Barack Obama on Sunday met with — and defended — one of the primary financers of the group that was perhaps most responsible for sinking Sen. John F. Kerry’s 2004 presidential bid.

Obama huddled privately with T. Boone Pickens in a small conference room in the bowels of a casino hotel to discuss the legendary Texas energy trader’s much-publicized energy policy proposal.But while the two men posed for pictures before the meeting, Obama was asked how it felt to be meeting with the man “who tore down” Kerry’s campaign.

Pickens, who gave $3 million to the anti-Kerry 527 group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, smiled awkwardly as Obama fielded the question.

“Ah, you know, he’s got a lot longer track record than that,” Obama said. “He’s been doing, ah, he’s a legendary entrepreneur and you know, one of the things that I think we have to unify the country around is having an intelligent energy policy.”

(Why isn't his name Ba, ah, rack Uhbama?)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12591.html

Ah, the moral failing question. How was teenage drug abuse a moral failing?

What about (select only one)
a. Staying in a church for years when that church's message was beyond the pale? or,
b. Throwing his pastor of many years under the bus?

The point is, the answer he provided is something like Mr Bush's on his profligate lifestyle. In essence, both declared themselves pure since their youthful indiscretions.

How Democrats can mine the West
The party's message appeals to the region's growing population of independents.

"As he accepts his party's presidential nomination on Aug. 28, standing a mile high at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, Barack Obama will be pressing into a landscape long thought impassable for a Democrat seeking the White House.....

Words like "hope," "change" and "opportunity" have been, for centuries, at the heart of the Western experience. They are words Washington must, and will, hear again. This year, the road to the White House runs through the West."
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-salazar18-2008aug18,0,1303864.story

"good article on the evangelical sideshow."

Thanks Patsi, I like the way you put it.

Flatus, I choose a.

Patsi,

Ah, ah-ah...ah ah umm uh ah, sorry. Must of had one of those senior moments. lol

Um, Patsi, for those of us with dysfunctional knees, would a simple prostration suffice?

Clearly, the event was set up to put the far-right at ease about McCain. However, in watching McCain toe the line, it may have pushed some Clinton supporters toward BO. He probably should have done that a month ago (instead of going on a Euro-tour) and maybe, just maybe, the convention would be going down a little differently. May not like BO, but McCain is bad, too. Hil'ry's still the best person for the job.

This morning's local paper, Columbia's 'The State' was really thin, so thin that both Stinky and I checked to see whether we had pulled it all out of the newspaper cubbyhole.

After we got through with our walk, I weighed the paper on our electronic scale; it tipped the scales at 4.1-ounces; about the same weight as five typical first class letters. And, the weight included all the advertising, display and classified.

I clip coupons. But lately the coupons in the Sunday paper are almost entirely for high mark-up items, things we generally shun. And, I'm able to scan the Wednesday supermarket ads by going to their websites.

Hard news is really punk, as well. And, they dropped their editor of editorials.

So, I pay in advance for a year every December. I'm seriously considering dropping the paper completely and asking for a refund. I hate doing this because I've subscribed to the local newspapers forever. But...

Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?

Chloe
Thanks for the Joan Walsh Salon article.I read her all the time, she is so balanced and fair.I could only read the transcipts of the Warren forum,the mix of religion and politic's makes me nervous.......

good morning gang.....

Craig....while I agree 1000% with your sentiments about separation of church and state.... I also think our opinion on this matter is irrelevant....

like it or not..... the evangelicals are a political force to be reckoned with....

and yes.... I am aware that Warren states that they are not a monolithic group...
but I bet the number of evangelicals that vote Democratic are akin to the number of blacks that vote Republican.... neither group is large enough to be taken seriously.....

and once the invitation was made by Warren for this forum.... can you imagine the fun the GOP would have had if Obama had said "no"....... and McCain didn't have much of a choice either.... imagine the outcry if he'd said no after making an appearance at the NAACP....

both candidate had to do this.... but the weird thing is the timing that Warren picked.... mid-August while the Olympics are in session.... I bet only die hard political junkies watched.... and of course, pundits.... they need something to write and talk about in an otherwise so far boring campaign....

Good Morning everyone,

Hi chloe,
I was planning on posting that Joan Walsh article, too. Again, we seem
to be channeling each other. I agree with Walsh's take on the faith forum.
I often agree with her. I think Joan and Craig are the two most fair and balanced of the current crop of political analysts.

Craig,
I completely agree with you. There was something a bit off putting about
watching two high powered, presidential candidates jumping through hoops
for this pastor in one of the most wealthy, segregated, right-leaning, conservative areas in the country. I kept wondering why McCain and Obama agreed to give this preacher so much power. Neither McCain nor Obama is running on a faith-based platform so this faith-forum seemed weirdly contrived.

I mean, who is this pastor really? Warren's claim to national fame is actually based on just one book, isn't it?

Good morning everyone!

My California sisters (actually my sil and her wife) have been visiting so I haven't had much of a chance to check in here. We were celebrating their recent legal marriage. We went to their hand fasting two years ago, and our thoughts at the time were that this is a real couple, it is a real marriage, but the law does not consider it to be so. This was just after the time that the courts shut down the San Francisco marriages. At the reception the judge in the family said that someday he wanted to preside over the legal marriage of my sil and her partner.

A week after the California Supreme Court ruling he was able to do just that. None of the East Coast family could participate, this time, since the real wedding was two years ago -- but having the legal status of marriage is very meaningful. It goes far beyond civil union since marriage automatically confers more legal rights to the couple that don't have to be spelled out in a contract.

Craig -- your post today is so right-on! I did not watch the full glurge coverage of the "Faith Forum" but what I did see in small snippets on CNN made me very uncomfortable.

I'm sick of certain churches trying to impose their definitions of marriages and families on the rest of us. Obama's definition of marriage being between "a man and a woman" is troubling to me. It's even more offensive since his own parents would not have been legally married in Virginia, where it was against the for blacks to marry whites. The GOB judges back then also used the Bible as their justification to exclude marriage between races.

I'm not opposed to people being motivated by their faith to participate in politics. I identify as a Unitarian in large part because UUs have include social justice as part of the church's missions. Churches were prominent in the struggle for civil rights (MLK Jr, et al), promoting peace ( Berrigan brothers), advocating for the homeless (CCNV founder Mitch Snyder was converted to RC by the Berrigan brothers while in prison).

I have more of a problem with are the Christian Dominionists who believe their brand of Christianity should have complete control of government -- not just participate in politics.

This is a pretty good article on Christian Dominionists:
http://www.publiceye.org/christian_right/cr_intro.html

I completely agree with you, Craig. This however is what we have come to in this country. I still say McCain performed so much more effectively than Obama on the forum. I have friends he really swayed even though they don't agree with many of his positions. I guess at least they feel he showed a little more directness and integrity in his answers. Obama keeps dodging--The abortion answer was ridiculous! There really doesn't seem to be much there. Hillary would have been great-- what a shame!

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

Yes, Flatus -- the Tennessean is smaller, and not very good these days.

mornin' all.

Somehow, I couldn't tear myself away from the Phelps and Liukin show, a nice dinner with Mrs. P. at our favorite French restaurant, cutting the grass and installing ceiling fans in LP's new room to watch a debate of sorts with no upside for Obama. Literally all I've head from the Q/A was McCain's "drill now, drill here, drill forever" mantra and his "at conception" yammer, and Obama's dodge (which I do not begrudge him since he literally had nothing to gain no matter what he answered to any question). It was enough. I cannot for the life of me understand why Obama did that event, other than what Renee said above.

btw, Renee, how was the bluse fest in my old stomping grounds? Stop into the Campton store for donuts on the way in?

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

We have a paper?

heard ... blues

Damn typos.

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

We have a paper?

Posted by: pogo | August 18, 2008 9:07 AM

hahahhahahahahahahahhahah LOL LOL
I am dying here...LOL LOL LOL

"So much for separation of church and state.
Subjecting themselves to such an inquisition, based upon one church's social and political agenda, was unseemly on many fronts."
craig, it would have been refreshing if the candidates candidly broached the church/state issue, acknowledging and encouraging the diversity of beliefs in this country while defending their separation from gov action. we need to be reminded of the many accepted practices in our established religions that are contrary to laws governing the whole. things like gender bias or segregation in temple, synagogue, mosque or priesthood; medical care, divorce and birth control prohibitions; genital mutilation/circumcision; ostracism; mandatory tithing etc. etc.
they should make it clear that there is nothing wrong with being president and being a baptist, buddhist, muslim, wiccan or ~heaven forbid an atheist~... but you know and i know they can't.

RR -- agree about evangelical vote. As much as I despise pandering to them, I do know they are a force. How in God's name (intended) did they come to believe George W Bush was the biggest Believer of them all????

jason, my "paper" consists of bits and bytes - we of course have a newspaper of sorts here, but the first 5 minutes of the local news - at 6 or 11 - obviates the need to wade throught he same AP articles I get on line. Since my close friend and ex-colleague who was the managing editor was killed in a bicycle accident last year, the paper has gone back into the same handbasket to hell it was in before he assumed control of it. I do check the "Get off the Bench" section once a week to make sure some vitally important soccer or basketball camp or tournament won't be missed by LP, but aside from that since I don't have a bird I can't imagine actually buying our local rag.

Alicia -- Good to hear about your sil's marriage. Had a pre-birthday lunch yesterday with my sister, daughter, granddaughter and a female couple I know would love to be married. So stupid that it's even an issue.

Bragging rights: a woman was sitting next to us and stopped by the table. She started by saying: "I've been homeschooling now for fifteen years, -- and I couldn't believe what I just heard..." (I almost froze because we'd been talking a little about lesbian issues...) But then she went on, and said, "I have never in my life heard a child as young as this one say 'talapia'!"

Grandbaby is turning three October 29....

Granny turns 63 today.

And on the occasion of my birthday I'm having a difficult time not getting my granddaughter's birthday present out of the closet so I can celebrate my own b-day playing with her and the fabulous big puppet theater and puppet set I've got for her!

Warren claimed on TV las tweek that he believes in the separation of church and state (easy for a guy who heads a church that make smillions to say) but that he does not believe in the separation of faith and politics. I suppose he is focusing on governmental support of religiion in his church/state opposition (see parenthetical above). Oh, & Patsi, because GW talked all sincerely and such about his heart and about his faith saving him from the evil alcohol - the evangelicals seem to eat that sh*t up.

dah dah dah dah dah daaah, dah daaaah.

Happy Birthday, Patsi. It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

Patsi -- Happy Birthday! I hope your special day is full of lovely surprises and wonderful blessings.

Cute story about your grandbaby!

Psst...did you know that I am a homeschooler? There are a lot of us who are gay-friendly, tree-hugging, politically-liberal, open-minded -- and not anti-public schools.

Happy Birthday to you, Patsi!

Sixty is the new fabulous.

Blue,

"May not like BO, but McCain is bad, too. Hil'ry's still the best person for the job."

You and I always seem to end up on the same page politically. McCain was awful. Sure he did the "straight talk" folksyness and overworn "my friends", but virtually everything he said was Republican spin. Virtually every "goody" for the people such as health care involved a "deduction". Well if you can't afford to buy health care in the first plac a tax deduction is going to end up as a big zero.

Obama didn't please me either as he seemed very hesitant and his answers about Marriage and civil unions and the abortion questions bothered me. He never really spoke to the audience so that even when something he said pleased them, he didn't seem to connect.

My druthers would be that this sort of forum would be rejected. I like the separation of church and state and that wall has been dangerously weakened in recent decades.

Patsi, birthday girl,

I just found this website:

"Sixty is the new sexy" t-shirts.

RR,

"but I bet the number of evangelicals that vote Democratic are akin to the number of blacks that vote Republican.... neither group is large enough to be taken seriously....."

One can point to a a number of registered Afro-American voters, but evangelicals I am not so sure there is a number. There are a number of evangelicals who are silent on this matter, and because the meaning and interpretation of the word evangelicals is so broad, their numbers might be much higher than you would think.

My girl P....May u have a blessed birthday!
Granny or No granny...I admire your knowledge.

Great birthday hugs from Amsterdam......

btw, for you Olympics junkies (include me in that list) here's a link to the official site - and it is the best site to get up to date info IMHO.

http://en.beijing2008.cn/

One can point to a a number of registered Afro-American voters, but evangelicals I am not so sure there is a number. There are a number of evangelicals who are silent on this matter, and because the meaning and interpretation of the word evangelicals is so broad, their numbers might be much higher than you would think.

Posted by: FryDaddy | August 18, 2008 9:45 AM

Fully agree.
That is why BO agreed to do this. He cannot afford to let this group (that may matter in the end) go....

Right now I am listening to John McCain on CNN blab on and on about how he's going to help the veterans. Total BS -- since he's among the worst for supporting Veteran's issues in the US Senate. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080602/beutler

Pogo -- Here is another website for Olympics and other sports junkies -- www.Sportsfanlive.com is a brand-new combination of sports website and social networking.

I'm shamelessly promoting it since my friend is the website's senior editor -- and it's even fun for a not-so-much sports person like me.

I've really been enjoying their blogging 24-7 about the Olympics.

Evangelicals becoming a political power despite having a doctrine that is at odds with the majority of Americans is a classic example of practical politics.

Thirty years ago, they ran for school board and led anti tax and bussing drives. Those that made it to school board went for city council and county supervisor. From there it was the leap to state legislatures and finally congressional districts. After a quarter of a century, they get a President.

How has that worked out for you? No matter what change you want to see in government, it is rarely enough to just demonstrate or lecture or demand. It means getting your foot in the door, making tiny possible changes until after years of gaining power you can finally do a takeover.

Patsi, Happy Birthday! So great that you get to share the day with your granddaughter and family. Is your birthday one of the reasons your sister chose now for a visit?

I love reading this thread today!

"...the mix of religion and politic's makes me nervous......".
Posted by: tonyb39 | August 18, 2008 8:22 AM

Me too Tony.
............................

Hi Marcia, Joan and Craig are on my good list too. What I like most about them is that they're both really nice people.

McCain was absolutely frightening. He spoke about the government spending "millions" on the DNA of bears, calling it a waste of tax payer money. He never once mentioned the billions borrowed beyond the budget for an unnecessary war and the slaughter of innocents and our own young men and women. He's all heart.

Blacks who vote R are in the 8 to 9% range.

According to the US Census, July 2007, there are approximately 29,00,000 Afro-Americans over the age of 18. What is never talked about, except when the topic of over crowding of prisons and that Blacks compose a majority of that number, is this. Of the 29,000,000 Afro-Americans over the age of 18, how many have lost their privileged to vote because of their felony conviction records.? I know that privilege can be reinstated if applied for and granted, but how many have? The figure for Afro-Americans who can not vote has to be in the millions, and as a percentage of the Afro-American population over the age of 18 has to be staggering.

on helen's documentary tonight http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/17/AR2008081702454.html

Running late, off to work.

"That is why BO agreed to do this. He cannot afford to let this group (that may matter in the end) go...."

Jason, I think you're right. Obama is looking for every chance to talk about religion because he has had to fight off false rumors so often. He almost had to do it.

Alicia

Congratulations to your sister in law and her wife making it official.

We still need a change in laws so that all committed relationships of whatever composition are "Civil Unions" as far as government is concerned.

Then the religious ceremony can be at the happy couple's option of place and type if desired but none of the government's business.

Thanks Alicia - I added it to my favorites folder. And here's a backatcha site one of my friends (dad of LP's drummer).

http://www.profootballtalk.com/

It's just pro football, but Mike does some interesting things with it - last year's big hit was the "Days without arrest" ticker (right hand banner), with the closely associated Turd Watch (button at the top).

happy, happy birthday!.... Patsi...
I LOVE your stories about your granddaughter.....

"He almost had to do it."
Chloe.... that's what I said.... except I'd take out the word "almost"....

Pogo....
we didn't go to the blues rally.....

one of Rick's cousin's daughters died in a car crash.... we found out about it late Friday night..... went to the wake Saturday morning and the funeral on Sunday.... she was only 23 yrs old and had just graduated from college this past May....

Patsi,

Best to you on your day--Happy birthday--enjoy.

Nancy Pelosi' comments welcoming Obama at a CA fundraiser should be added to the troubling mix of religion with politics.

He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."

flatus @ 7:17:
"a. Staying in a church for years when that church's message was beyond the pale? or,
b. Throwing his pastor of many years under the bus?"

I presume you are speaking about john mccains's aprupt flight from the Anglican Episcopal Church this Spring.

On the Bill Cunningham radio show (national) last night, Corsi discussed the fake COLB, Obama's refusal to release a hard copy, his Indonesian citizenship, Obama's lies about his Muslim education, the 1981 trip to Pakistan (Did he use an Indonesian passport? Remember the break in?) and more. The info was a bit scrambled, but this was a good start. These are legitimate questions that SoetorObama will be forced to answer. Come "clean" - just tell the American people the TRUTH!

An interesting perspective from Mudcat Saunders about Obama's campaign efforts in southern states.

"Dave "Mudcat" Saunders: Barack Obama's elitist campaign alienates South"

Saunders: "Sometimes they remind me of another bunch from Chicago, the Blues Brothers: they seem to think they're on a mission from God."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4553100.ece

Renee, I'm so sorry to hear that. Please pass my condolences along to Rick. So sorry to hear about his cousin (in the south that would be his 2nd cousin). That's tragic. Could you send me an e-mail to larry dot chafin at steptoe hyphen johnson dot com. I don't have your e-mail addy and would like it if you don't mind.

"Psst...did you know that I am a homeschooler? There are a lot of us who are gay-friendly, tree-hugging, politically-liberal, open-minded -- and not anti-public schools. "

Ha! Yes, Alicia, I thought about that after I had immediately assumed she was going to say something religious to us....I'm not necessarily anti-homeschooling, or charter schooling...(my thing about charters is that I don't want private enterprise to slowly replace public schools.)

Coreen, From that link you just posted:
“They think we're a bunch of hillbilly heathens who go out and burn crosses and do crazy bullshit."

I don't know if that statement is so far off. Isn't that basically what Obama said in San Francisco?

Also: "Yesterday The New York Times carried a front-page article in which more than a dozen senior Democrats urged Mr Obama to climb down from his sermonising mount and tell ordinary voters how he would improve their lives"

That paragraph sort of describes what we were talking about on the blog over the weekend. Obama needs to talk to the middle class to make some kind of connection.

Coreen

"Saunders: "Sometimes they remind me of another bunch from Chicago, the Blues Brothers: they seem to think they're on a mission from God."

That I could take, but Nancy Pelosi as the Virgin Mary waiting to deliver?

" Is your birthday one of the reasons your sister chose now for a visit?"

Actually she'd planned to visit earlier, but her 12 year old grandson got sick last year and had to miss some school, so she ended up spending the early part of the summer in Houston getting him caught back up. She spent years as a teacher, then as a reading tutor.

Renee, I'm sorry to hear about Rick's cousin's daughters dying. I wondered why you hadn't mention the rally.

Strange story on the Nashville news today. The commentator said that there is virtually no excitement in the state about the election, not when compared to the primary. Said that the evangelicals say they'll vote for McCain, but they aren't excited. And not much interest in Obama either.

No wonder i seldom see a bumper sticker or a yard sign. (except Ron Paul signs....)

Washington remains hobbled by Iraq
So far, reaction in the US to Russia’s invasion of Georgia has been all Vladimir Putin could have wished. Exhausted in every way by its experience in Iraq (a failure not much mitigated by recent progress there), its authority and sense of purpose quite depleted, the US looked slower and less decisive than Europe in its initial response, and that is saying something.

It took repeated prodding from presidential contender John McCain to draw President George W. Bush’s attention from the Beijing Olympics to the fact that Russian forces were overrunning the territory of a US ally.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/70667cb6-6c73-11dd-96dc-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

Is it possible that the "comfort level" among Democrats is not quite as secure as the media keeps wanting us to believe.

NYT today---For convention, Obama's Image is All-American

Through 4 nights there will be testimonials from faimly members, his wife, his sister who will tell his 'very American story', & from party stars like Ted Kennedy &
Bill Clinton--who will give Obama the imprimatur of the party establishment.

Also, add Paul Krugman's column re: the economy & Obama's inability to dominate that discussion when by all measures that should be a "gimme".

(Sorry can not figure out how to link 2 separate articles)

Coreen, are you talking about this one from yesterday?
It’s the Economy Stupor
By PAUL KRUGMAN
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

Coreen's NYTimes Articles

All American Convvention

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/us/politics/18convention.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Slow Response on Georgia

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/washington/18diplo.html?hp

*Well it's true. It's f***ing genes. It's who we are as a people. We'll say 'f*** you' to Bush, Longshanks or Maggie Thatcher. F*** any of 'em.” *

Coreen

I love this quote from Mudcat Saunders, in the article you posted. It is so true. We take offense at the drop of a hat. If you don't like us( as in Obama's guns and religion quote ) Then F***you.

People in the Ozarks are hurting but walking around as a typical Northeast elitist looking down on poor whites is going to get you a big FU and the horse you rode in on.
Mudcat is right, Obama could connect with the rural working class whites with his similar experinces with the urban working class.
But I think he has even lost his connection to the working poor on Chicagos south side. If he ever really had any.

Jack

Jack

Coreen, thanks for that timesonlineuk link to Mudcat Saunders' take on the election - I may not be from this area, but I've spent the last 15 years in it, and he's exactly right about the attitude of the folks from around here. Obama better wake up and smell the moonshine. And could you ask him to get a little fish and bread to me before he comes down from the mount to try and get the rural vote if he bothers to? Of course Mudcat is right about the rural vote, but then again, Iowa's pretty rural (yeah, yeah, I know, I have the gift of understatement), and JE came in second to Obama there despite his Herculian efforts to win the state, so who really knows?

"I think he has even lost his connection to the working poor on Chicagos south side. If he ever really had any."

Jack,
Hubby and I were talking about that this morning. I'm under the impression he never really had any understanding of us. I really don't think he gets it. But he'd better learn quick if he want to be everyones president.

Happy B'Day Patsi!!

Yeah pogo, but Iowa was a caucus.

Renee -- My deepest sympathy for your family's recent loss.

Patsi -- I agree with you on the school funding issue. I don't agree with vouchers or private charter schools. Public education is a public good and if parents choose not to use it, then they should be responsible for the cost of their child's private education.

People ask me all the time if I would like some type of government reimbursement for our family's homeschooling expenses. That is definitely not something I want for two reasons: 1) It would take money away from public schools which are already struggling 2) When you take the queen's shilling, you do the queen's bidding. I really don't want the government telling me how to educate my children. Why try to replicate at home what isn't working in the school system?

Colleen -- When Mudcat talks like that I would listen very closely. He was responsible for Mark Warner's win in rural Virginia. Obama' s people must not have hired Mudcat -- maybe they think they can win the Old Dominion without SW and Central.

chloe - LOLOLOL. Most of them were.

Well, lunch a bit early today - tummy rumbling is deafening.

I watched the Rick Warren's question and answers forum Sat. night and was impressed with John McCain's quick, concise and confident answers -- until I reasoned that he watched (or had) the questions beforehand.
Rev. Warren made a point of saying that JMcC was in a "cone of silence" room and before questioning him -- even stated that in the form of a question, "how did it feel being in a cone of silence?" To which McCain answered he tried to hear thru the walls. Come to find out that he was in his limo driving to the church for at least half of Obama's time on stage. Question: Did the reverend deliberately lie or is he just very careless in relaying an imperfect message. And, finally, that McCain was a bit more smooth and polished with his answers is believeable to me -- if indeed, he had the script beforehand. Can the republicans ever be honest in anything?

AMEN Craig !!! LOL...

Theresa, We heard just one question and answer from John McCain in the car (didn't hear the rest). But that one question he answered sounded so scripted that we immediately said to each other: he had these questions ahead of time.

"And, finally, that McCain was a bit more smooth and polished with his answers"

One would expect McCain to be more at ease with his answers as he was in a friendly environment. Most things could be said without long explanations, when the question is loaded in your favor.

Jack

Alternative media is not tin-foil world. Have you ever ventured into tin-foil world? There are many serious investigators in the alternative media. Just because something is not covered by MSM doesn't mean that it is wrong or doesn't exist.

Posted by: GORDO | August 17, 2008 12:36 PM

Gordo, I worked in alternative media for a decade. http://www.kaosradio.org

What you are referring to as "alternative media" is not what I have known it to be. You can certainly learn more about alternative media at the FAIR website: http://www.fair.org/

They also have a great radio program called COUNTERSPIN.

Check it out.

EuroTom

While alternative media doesnot = tinfoil hat
About any of the alternative/liberal intertainment weeklies contain some tinfoil type of stuff. It draws in the readers, pays the bills.
A bit like cable news does anymore.

Jack

thanks for the condolences.....

enough sadness..... I want this day to be about life..... I will celebrate the fact that it's Patsi's BD..... here's a margarita to you, kid.....

it's ok.... it's after noontime here in the east.....

EuroTom-------------------------

I've listened to "counterspin".

Have you ever entered tin-foil world? If so, seems like you would know the difference - maybe not. I don't consider NoQuarter, TexasDarlin, Hillbuzz, American Thinker, etc to be part of tin-foil world. You do - that's your right.

Gordo

Your getting fiesty. Thanks for doing more than just cut and pasting.

Jack

Thom Hartman is ripping McCain a new one. One of the most damning from the standpoint of the "religious" issue is the story about the guard drawing a cross in the dirt. Apparently, five years ago he was attributing it to another prisoner and even worse that it is virtually identical to a story told by Solzhenitsyn's in Gulag Archipeligo.

I went hunting for the details on this one and found this on Daily KOS

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299

Can't confirm validity, but it would tie in with all the other "nobility" stories McCain tells when he wasn't being particularly noble.

"I don't consider NoQuarter, TexasDarlin, Hillbuzz, American Thinker, etc to be part of tin-foil world."

Then what are they in your world. I
n my world they are never a legitimate source of factual material.

Jack

Feisty's a good thing. Go Gordo

Here is the press release for the religious forum:

http://www.rickwarrennews.com/080721_forum.htm

Look at the description of the issues to be discussed and then compare them with the questions actually asked. The release indicated pressing general issues, but the specific questions were right wing religious drivel.

10:00 smoke break

OT: San Fran dog lover's blog

http://www.automatedredemption.com/flavorcountry/dogblog/

jamie - We did end up on the same page about God-forum-08. Surprise. Did you also get the sense that McCain was just spitting out what he knew he had to say to win 'em over? A little desperation and distaste for the whole thing?

BO still doesn't seem to have a geniune bone in his body. Religious preference, or preference for none, doesn't bother me. I do have a problem with someone professing to be something publicly when the hold different views privately. I can't know BO's heart, but either the "bitter" comment he made privately was him trying to fit into the group, or, he really feels that way & his church in Chicago was just a stepping stone to elected office.

One thing is for sure. I do not want the folks rocking back-and-forth and weeping out on the mall in DC to put the person they deem worthy of them into the WH.

You are a big believer in MSM? We can all trust MSM - sure.

Here's a question. Know about the missing 39 words from Hillary's April 22, 1994 "Pink" press conference? Do you know what Nightline did?

This is an angry Bill Clinton with Peter Jennings . The Nightline episode was not mentioned, but that was one of many things ABC (and others) had done to the Clintons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wJMO7cmhHo

"either the "bitter" comment he made privately was him trying to fit into the group, or, he really feels that way & his church in Chicago was just a stepping stone to elected office."

Blue,
The bitter thing in Chicago tells me something about him, but you're right, he could have been saying what he thought they wanted to hear. But the church in Chicago is what really bothers me. He started going there, I agree, for political reasons. But when you listen to that stuff for 20 years, I can't believe it doesn't rub off.

Not knowing what he really believes and not having much of a record for us to look at is his biggest downfall.

Blue,

I'm anti McCain if only for the Supreme Court justices he said he never would have appointed. Sen. Obama doesn't strike me as evil in any way, but just very hidden and in way too big a hurry no matter how many backs he steps on to get to the top.

It is his mentors I distrust most. On the plus side, I give him points for those daughters. You can't raise beautiful girls like his without an opinionated wife and a lot of love mixed with the discipline. I hope they keep him grounded and on track so that he hasn't sold too much of his soul to achieve his high flying ambitions.

"You are a big believer in MSM? We can all trust MSM - sure"

Gordo

It is not an issue of the quality of MSM but the fact that your sources are trash. So much so that they make the MSM look like paragons of virtue.

Jack

Chloe

What is it about his church that bothers you?

Jack

Any thoughts on the Musharaf resignation in Pakistan?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/asia/19pstan.html?hp

Jack, That they teach hate and racism. That he lied about never hearing any of the things we heard. That he feels now there's enough to throw Wright overboard, but he never considered it before.

"It is not an issue of the quality of MSM but the fact that your sources are trash"

Jack, the Enquirer is trash too. But they're right about some things once in a while.

Jamie

the was McCain given out questions before the event is mostly silly. The fact is every one of those question could have been anticipated. There was no new breaking of ground. Yes the questions were going to be right wing religious. McCain already has pat answers he has been giving for years. Just as any Demcrat has pat answers to questions from the Urban League.

Jack

I have to leave for an hour. I'll check back when I get back.

"That they teach hate and racism"

How so?

Jack

"the Enquirer is trash too. But they're right about some things once in a while."

But they are wrong more often than right that is why anything they claim is met with extreme skepticism.
And a higher level of proof is demanded.
The fact that they were able to get one piece of mud to stick, doesn't say anything about all the mud they will throw against the wall next year.

Jack

You have been conditioned - trained to think within certain boundaries - mind controlled.

Have you seen the 1988 John Carpenter movie "They Live"? Do you understand the hidden message about government and corporate media control of the population? Probably not. THEY have you just the way THEY want - under control! You actually believe what is being fed to you on a daily basis.

"You have been conditioned - trained to think within certain boundaries - mind controlled."

Gordo you have no idea what I think except that your scources are trash. please give a defense of your sources and lay off the adhominim.

Jack

Hit a nerve? Maybe THEY don't have you completely under control. You suspect something is not right, but can't put the pieces together in your mind. Work on it. Free your mind.

Jack,

I don't think McCain was given the questions ahead of time. As you say they were all pretty predictable considering the source. What I find objectionable is that the topics as listed in the press release were never discussed except possible the work that church is doing in Africa in relation to AIDS.

If there is going to be a relgious forum, then it could have been much more in depth and revealing itstead of so knee jerk, pro forma, and glib.

Still can't defend your sources Gordo?

The problem is a matter of predicability. You have built up a consistant record that makes it very easy to judge your posts. Therfore like the Inquirer mentioned above you have to be held to a higher standard. It is the way it works on the net.
Reputation is everything and your reputation is very low.

Jack

"Gordo you have no idea what I think except that your scources are trash. please give a defense of your sources and lay off the adhominim."
Jack

y'all kept harping at gordo to speak rather than cut/paste. sometimes the getting what you wanted isn't what you wanted after all.

I, like jamie, don't really suspect that McOld would even need to have the questions beforehand - I rather expect the questions were pretty fairly well tailored to elicit McCain's fairly simple, well known and predictable answers and put them in a favorable light compared to the equally predictably nuanced (there's that word again) and thoughty answers of Obama. No, Obama's not a great extemporaneous speaker, and is apparently less so when in a q/a format one on one with a questioner who isn't bathing in his aura - let''s face it, the best he did in the dem debates was a draw once or twice with Clinton, and they were pretty predictable after about the 15th one. What is amazing to me is that based on the comments of you guys, the VERY little of his answers I heard and the comments of the pundits doing their post mortems, Obama's staff did not adequately prepare him to answer the questions that they had to have been able to predict would be coming at him from the good reverend. There's your problem.

The Enquirer? What are Tom & Katie up to, and is it true that Jen and John called it quits? How's Bigfoot doing? New spottings at Rozwell? Good grief.

"Any thoughts on the Musharaf resignation in Pakistan?"
yeah jamie, first thing i tho't of was what an easy way to get rid of bush/cheney... just get serious about impeachment, seriously threaten it and poof they're out the door.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129362

LOL. Mrs. P would cut my tongue out.

jamie,
re: Musharaff I think that no matter who the coalition government puts in place, we won't be going into Pakistan to look for Obama.

What you don't understand is that the Repubs have the info on SoetorObama - they are holding it until after the nomination. The PUMAs are trying to obtain the same documents. There is an effort to get documents from an Indonesian source. Problem is that the source is almost as anti-Hillary as anti-Obama. This source has been working with Repubs, so may not want to go against them (fear). Obama's past has been scrubbed - very difficult to find info that is not based on something he has said or written.

"...we won't be going into Pakistan to look for Obama."

pogo, last time i heard he was in chicago

"y'all kept harping at gordo to speak rather than cut/paste. sometimes the getting what you wanted isn't what you wanted after all."

Notice I've already expressed my delight that Gordo is not cutting and pasting. even his exchange with me is better than his cut and paste jobs. I'm interested if he can defend some of what he believes to be valuable sources.

Jack

Patd

Ya go to where the votes are.
The hills of North Carolina, the hills of pakistan,
Who can tell them apart those hillbillies are all the same , clinging to their guns and religion.

Jack

Duh - let's try Osama. (What an idiot).

Chloe,

Before you condemn black liberation theology out of hand you might want to consider the idea that many groups of immigrants formed groups and churches to educated, advance, and finally assimilate into American society.

For a variety of reasons this avenue of advancement was denied to the majority of AA. The church that has always been the center of black life is also the way to fight back agains racism and exclusion.

After reading individual pieces and essays, I finally got an excellent anthology of the writings of W. E. B. Du Bois and I'm currently rereading, "The Soul of Black Folks"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Souls_of_Black_Folk

Take the time to consider he central question, "What does it to feel like a problem?" and then consider what liberation theology might be trying to achieve. Certainly there are things that can make you uncomfortable, but I'm sure you could find that in just about any set of religious doctrines and sermons.

"That they teach hate and racism"
"How so?"

Jack,

Sorry I had to take off so quickly, but my daughter was standing here waiting for me.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, but I figure you haven't seen the videos maybe, and haven't read what I've read. I'll link a couple of them, but I can find many more if you want

If you want me to think these were exceptions to his normal preaching style, then maybe you could show me someplace to find something, anything, where Wright said he was sorry for the things he said and that he doesn't really believe the horrible accusations that he's made. Give me a link, and I'll see if I can change my mind.

But please don't ask me to not believe my own eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ&feature=related

Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for
9/11http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ&feature=related

" And I like that you are not going with the 39+ spiel."

Might be odd for a woman in her sixties to claim to be 39....

McCain is able to go after Obama in ways that Hillary could not in the Dem Primary. There are plenty of attack angles to move sufficient voters in enough swing states to win. Obama, who is light on experience and recognized achievements, should stay in front of smaller groups, tackling a full range of questions from friendly and hostile audiences, and constantly responding with specifics of how he as President would make their lives and circumstances and opportunities better. It's past time for touting credentials the electorate knows he doesn't have and convince voters he is real and can be trusted. America embraces the underdog and rejects a phony, which is how McCain is trying to brand Obama -- All Hat, No Cattle!

Hey G Man,

Have you come across any info from your "sources'" that helps explain the sudden success of the Jamaican sprinters? I was thinking maybe they were visited from the "Brother from Another Planet" or something.

btw, fyi, that's a a great Sayles movie.

"Chloe,
Before you condemn black liberation theology "

Jamie,
This is crazy. I haven't condemned anything.
If you will look at what I've said, I said I objected to teaching hate and racism and I objected to the lies that were told to hide the truth. That's not condemnation of black liberation. And I really hate having words put in my mouth.

"And a higher level of proof is demanded"

Sorry Jack, but I really haven't had a chance to catch up. By higher level of proof, are you talking about the kind of honest we get from our main stream media? Where do you want me to go for my truth. Ask Obama? Ask Wright? or some other politician, since I know they was give me a "higher level of truth", right

I wasn't defending the Enquirer. I was simply using them as an example of being right sometimes. Don't complicate my statements to mean any more than they say. I'm a lot of things Jack, but I'm not naive.

It doesn't matter if Gordo is right or wrong. Any more than it matters if you are right or wrong. He has every right to say whatever he wants to say in any manner he chooses to say it. It's ridiculous for others to be so bothered by it.

Much of what I post is about what the Repubs would do to Obama with info they are said to be holding. We will find out, if Obama is nominated. Will the stories about audios, videos, damaging documents, etc. be proven true? I don't know - sure hope so! Many PUMAs are not going to forgive or forget the Dem backstabbing of the Clintons.

Chloe

Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. You said teaching hate and racism, and I'm saying that some isolated sermons by one pastor is not necessarily a good example of the goals or attitudes.

I did go check and as it happens, "The Souls of Black Folks" is available through Project Gutenberg and can be downloaded for free

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/408

"Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. You said teaching hate and racism, and I'm saying that some isolated sermons by one pastor is not necessarily a good example of the goals or attitudes."

Jamie,
Do we agree that those isolated sermons were teaching hate and racism?

chloe,
I think I can say with a fair degree of confidence that Jack would not direct you to Obama, Wright or some other politician for "a higher level of truth."

I have to chuckle at the Enquirer reference - yeah they do get it right occasionally - John Edwards can attest if we need a witness. But as the old saying goes, even a broken watch gives the correct time twice a day (the rest of the time it's wrong).

I agree Pogo. But what does that have with what I'm talking about.

Try to understand, I have no problem with black liberation theology. None. I speaking solely of 'isolated sermons' and how their impact was handled by both Wright and Obama (as in lies and denials).

The national polls are misleading in that California and New York give a false picture in the head to head national comparison.

The RCP Battleground box on their main page sows the eroding Obama electoral position. On the averages a box which was almost all Obama has now turned into almost all McCain with small leads.

Wake Democrats! We can't depend on McCain imploding to attain victory.

Chloe,

Of the ones I've heard which were only a few sentences out of a lengthy sermon, there were things that made me uncomfortable but without reading or hearing the whole thing in order to know what led to those sentences, I couldn't say they were teaching hate and racism.

chloe, not a lot. I'm just free associating.

Well, that's where we differ Jamie. I did hear plenty to think that he was teaching hate and racism.

Now would you like to take your young grandchildren there every Sunday. And maybe take the chance that some of the things that we've seen on video were said that day. You know how impressionable children are (and adults) , if you expose them long enough.

You are right about one thing. I don't know what went on on all those other Sundays. But maybe you can find something somewhere that show that Wright said he was sorry for those sermons and that he doesn't agree with the things he said (about 9/11 and Goddamn America, for starters). Change my mind about him, not Black theology. I respect Black theology, knowing what little I know about it.

Thanks Pogo. I'm just wound up a little. I always appreciate your thoughts.

Do we agree that those isolated sermons were teaching hate and racism?

Chloe,

I think they dissected every available Wright sermon, and with a couple exceptions (intentional spread of AIDS) he was stating some harsh realities and some would say, lies and hate (subjective), while others would argue, he spoke the truth.

Sorry to butt in.

I am in total agreement with you Mr. Crawford. This country seems to be full of gun-loving religious zealots which to me seems contradictory, but considering how much killing has been done in the name of religion--maybe not!

hey all, get ready, the amazing Mudcat promises to come on here within the hour and offer his statement regarding the UK Times piece on him at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4553100.ece

Chloe,

All you have to do is pick up the old testament and find some fiery prophet damning nations for their evil deeds and calling down divine punishment for those actions. From that viewpoint, telling the US to get off its duff and live up to its promises and ideals is not necessarily a bad thing.

At least he didn't call for floods, fire, brimstone, and earthquakes unlike some of the Evangelical preachers on TV damning the sins of the people they don't like.

I cannot support the weak and spineless NObama because of his unbridled hubris. My disdain for "the One" he has been waiting for is held in check by my wife's "bitter" dislike, so compelling that it makes my ill opinion of the arrogant NObama seem tepid. We both support McCain and the PUMA and Just Say No Deal movements. The treatment of the Clintons by Obama, his surrogates and the MSM is unforgivable.

toast

I guess you're defending Wright. Ok. What he said wasn't as bad as those that are worse them him have said. And I'm supposed to believe Obama never knew ANYTHING about any of it. So he's not lying.

I don't have to kid myself about what I see as facts in order to vote for a candidate. If I vote for him then I vote for him. But I'm sure not going to pretend he's what he pretend's to be. He's just like the rest of us. Imperfect.

chloe, it's unlikely that I'd be taking much of a swat at what you write - we tend to agree on most issues, and if you think I am being overly critical, it's likely just my sarcasm getting in the way of what is meant to be nothing more than playful humor.

jamie, jamie, jamie. It is just fine to damn people for their sins, but inexcusable to damn the country of god's chosen people despite it's shredding of his commandments. Oh, wait, that's another country isn't it? Never mind.

its

pogo, I think you are one of the kindest, funniest, smartest, mos tinteresting people on this blog (although there are many others who fit in that category with you). I have NEVER taken offense at anything you have said. I don't think it matters what we say here. Just how we say it.

♫♪Happy birthday to Patsi!♪♫♪

Hope you have a funderful day!

"...anti tax and bussing..."

Jamie, I might take a look at Evangelicals' anti tax proposals; but, anti bussing--NEVER! :)

Renee...

Very sorry to read about Rick's cousins death. How tragic. My condolences to all of you.

chloe,

I'm not defending Wright so much as saying that what the general public knows about him is incomplete. He was the leader of that church for decades, and pulling out the most upsetting things he might have said from hundreds of tapes is an unfair picture of both the man and his work. I would simply need to know more to make an adequate judgement.

As to Obama, I happen to think his relationship to that particular church was more a political than a religious decision. Do I think he heard those sermons, of course he did. Do I believe his denials, no. I do think he heard the WHOLE sermon and therefor some of those sentences may not have seemed a bad in context as they did in isolation.

We all know what taking a quote out of context can do to any statement. You can change the whole intention of the speaker simply by the way you introduce and excerpted sentence. Something that has been done to the Clintons repeatedly.

I try hard not to believe anything based purely on emotion and without verifying the source and context. It can usually keep you from being misled and/or disillusioned.

Posted by: Jamie | August 18, 2008 3:35 PM

I agree with you on all of it.

"Iran is prepared to help Muslim countries launch satellites, an Iranian official said Monday, a day after Iran declared that it had test-fired a new rocket capable of carrying a satellite into orbit."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/middleeast/19iran.html

I had no idea there was a great demand for that. I wonder if it was really Muslim countries Iran was making sure know of its ability to do that?

testing...1,2,3,4.

Amen

Hey
We don't take no stinkin' test here.

lol

Welcome

Jack

my favorite mudcat quote from the article:
"...the problems of South Side Chicago are the same problems of the Appalachian mountains'. Big sonsofabitches are kicking the little sonsofabitches in the ass."

Is that really the Mudcat?

Yeah, that taking stuff out of context is a real problem - of course it can reflect just a slip of the truth, unadorned by the spin we've come to expect.

"Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama ripped Republican rival John McCain on Monday for joking during a televised discussion on values that $5 million fit the definition for being monetarily rich.
* * *
"McCain, who made the comment to evangelical pastor Rick Warren on Saturday, caught himself immediately and said the remark would likely be taken out of context."

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/washington/politics-usa-politics-rich.html

How dare Obama make fun of McCain's ACTUAL WORDS??? Desthpicable.

From Mudcat

“The Democrats talk of tolerance, but in reality the only tolerance they ever exhibit is for their own intellectual arrogance — and they don't have tolerance for my culture...

Sure says a lot about the current affairs of the dem party. I get the same feeling about the party these days, Mr. Mudcat!

PS...Happy Birthday, Patsi!

Patd

It is just a fact
Go down to the Ozarks and talk to my brotherinlaw
He has barely worked all summer. he installs new heating and air. no building going on. If it wasn't for my sister working at Walmart they would be in a world of hurt.

Jack

Hope mudcat remembers to write is a word processing program then cut and paste to the comment box. Or he could be doin' a lot of rewriting of lost posts.

Jack

I agree Patd, I liked that passage too , but if Obama went off in that direction, he'd appear contrived and the GOP would paint him as a class war monger.

And for the afternoon's (bad) economic news - the Dow falls over 200 points so far today without any negative economic reports being released today (OK, one was released over the weekend).

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/business/19stox.html

Jack,
You got me in all that trouble, then never said a word. What's with that?:)

Craig....I was happy to see both candidates in the evangelical backyard...finally, some face time in panderamaland. Obama didn't look like the candidate of change...I laughed at his moral failing answer and frowned at his answer about marriage being a union between a man and woman. Geez...with Ellen getting married this past weekend, he sure put a damper on her union to another woman.

Mudcat is trying to blast through our spam firewall and talk to you guys, so have at it

"He should say, 'I'm a black guy. I'm not gonna take the Michael Jackson treatment, but the problems of South Side Chicago are the same problems of the Appalachian mountains'. Big sonsofabitches are kicking the little sonsofabitches in the ass. Now I'm one of the little sonsofabitches, so I'm pissed off"

I agree but how does he translate this into his own lexicon/ persona. Tough sell !

by the way, for those with HBO the Helen Thomas doc is on at 9pm.

How does Mudcat come to grace Trail Mix, out of all the hellholes on the internet today?

I see mud prints....is he here??

"He says a “cultural wedge” has been placed between Democrats and Scots-Irish voters just as Hadrian built a wall to keep them back in Britain. “It is the same exact people. It's the same f***ing bunch of fight, sing, drink, pray people who are over there who are over here in these mountains.” mudcat

he's having a bit of trouble navigating in, blone wino, but he's tracking his way, be here shortly

It sort of sounds romantic...blasting his way through the trail mix spam firewall...almost sexy!

Craig...I love your typo...blone (sort of like "blown") wino! Yes, I am one blown away, blonde wino.

he can't read the Captcha mess, so i'm trying to set him up with TypeKey

You have to remember those "Scotch-Irish" folks that y'all like to laud, also are the ones who tended to be clannish with everyone, and particularly racist when it came to African Americans and immigrants. That can account for the troubles Obama has in the Apps, where the hardcore "never a black man" vote moves beyond the 15 percent of whites who believe their "neighbor" won't vote for a black man.

Keep religious leaders out of politics ? Al Sharpton ?

The public needs more unscripted events rather than
misleading campaign commercials , sound bites and teleprompters

Oops, meant Scots, not Scotch. Must have something on my mind.

Chloe
Jamie was doing such a good job that every piddly sentence I would write would embarrass me.

Also so I was trying to think how to put my thoughts in order because the issue doesn't boil down to an easy 3 sentence reply.

The Reverend Wrights sermons are not those clips you posted.

The chicken come home to roost sermon was really a sermon about revenge and the desire all of us felt to take retribution for the 911 attack. The really chilling part was when he repeated a grusome quote from Psalms.
As best I can remember it
"Blessed is he who dashes his enemies childrens brains on the rock"

He was telling his congregation that was not the way of a good people but good people sometimes let themselves be carried away.
He ended the sermon by telling his flock that they should go home to pray and to get right with God. Sound advice that I wish more of us had done. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today, in Iraq.

Jack

Well, hell, I'm in the frickin' middle of Appalachia - and I can tell you that Mudcat is exactly right. Many people in middle and lower economic groups here (there is actually a fairly thriving upper middle and upper class group, albeit small relative to other places I've lived) don't believe that the Democrats at the national level know anything about them and don't care about them and their needs (rightfully or wrongly) or support the values they hold. It's not across the board, and there are plenty of folks torn between the Republican big business, anti-union positions and their pro gun, pro religion stances to say nothing of their grudging acceptance that the Dems are the only folks in Washington who don't want to reduce or cut Medicare, Medicaid and the other support programs these folks rely on to get to next month, but they rely on their congressmen and senators to watch out for those interests. But they think more of guns, god and the good old US of A than about how Dumya has screwed up the country, its military and its economy, and they do think that America's image in the world will be hurt by ceding defeat in Iraq. The more McCain talks in 4 word soundbites and acts tough like Dumya, the more likely he is to get the votes here. Obama stands about the chance of a snowball in hell of winning here.

"How does Mudcat come to grace Trail Mix, out of all the hellholes on the internet today?"

Obviously, superior intellegence on the part of all.

Jack

So in other words, Democrats need to tap into their inner stupid?

backstory, Craig: how did you get Mudcat to join us, or at least try to?

trip, Mucat is longtime pal. he's having a terrible time trying to get in but we're workin on it

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129442

Jack,
Why didn't Obama say those things you just said instead of making a speech on race relations? You make a lot more sense.

MD

You have so much in common with that 15% that it is a pure shame you'uns can't get along.

Jack

craig, if he previews his post enough times he will get a captcha he can read.

Oh Jack, you're so clever.

mr. mudcat, has your book The Half-Assed Christian's Guide to Living been published yet? and is it worth buying or should i wait to check it out from the book mobile?

this makes me think we are all the punchline to

how do you keep a jackass in suspense?

"Why didn't Obama say those things you just said instead of making a speech on race relations? You make a lot more sense"

That is the million dollar question Chloe.
\
Damned if I know.
You look at the Church and it is obviously defendable. It is a powerhouse of good works in it community.

Jack

Do yall think I am radioactive enough so nobody will dare hire me? Jesus, I hope so. The Times caught me on the wrong (or right) day. If there are any questions about what I said, I'd be happy to answer them.

tell 'im Mudcat is going to be here any minute now

obviously, precisely what would you suggest Obama do as outreach to these Scots Irish?

Will he be using Webb and other surrogates?

what could he do now and personally, in your opinion?

less obviously: when you contacted the Obama campaign, did you send the pic of you on your bedspread?

AND can you tell us what Edwards thought about Obama's chances ot taking the prize?

Mr. Mudcat...my biggest beef with Obama is his shrinking away from the US, but is big in appearing Europe. Since your interview came out of the UK, what is the big deal with Europe? Why can't the campaign be conducted here in the US? In West Virginia? In Michigan? In Florida?

To Mr. Democrat...Craig got me on because he's my pal, and I don't take the word pal lightly. Plus the blood that runs through his veins is the same as mine...I think it's called "southern white trash"...Craig's genes are from Renfro Valley, Kentucky.

yeah, but did you mean everything you said?

Jack, in the psychology world, it's called projection. I remember something called the Southern Strategy - and it didn't have nuthin' to do with the reason people in Roanoke have Confederate flag bedspreads that Mudcat mentioned.

Milquetoast--

I totally agree with you and your wife about the treatment of the Clintons by both the Obama camp and the media. The Obama campaign probably now regrets some of the decisions they made.Given his weak poll numbers and poor performance in the Rick Warren Forum their only way out may be to put Hillary on the ticket but I don't think even that move will move some Hillary supporters in his direction.

Hi Mudcat,
Did you mean everything you said in that newspaper story?

I also agree with MD that many (many) of these folks are of the mind, "never a black man", so I'm not sure anything he could say would change their opinion. Although I do like the suggestion of the straight forwardness; "Big sonsofabitches are kicking the little sonsofabitches in the ass.".
But that doesn't suit his personality. At least the one he's put forth.

Mudcat: you with us or out on those mudflats?

Are we not as interesting as a herd of deer?

Don't go to the store for Camels on us.

"the blood that runs through his veins is the same as mine..."
you like wild turkey bourbon too?

now what about that half-assed christian book you were writing? has it been printed yet?

Welcome Mudcat. It's nice of you to drop in on our little corner of the blogosphere. I hope you will make it a habit. We are all very fond of our "southern white trash" leader.

I"ll echo a question from up above though you may have answered already. The polls are narrowing. How does Barack Obama carry your neck of the woods and climb the cultural divide in a way that sounds honest rather than patronizing?

Well, I have to recommend to Craig and Mudcat "White Trash Cooking" by Ernest Matthew Mickler. It is a wonderful book, ostensibly a cookbook - and it is - but as much a tour of the south by the son of one of the past deans of Academics (I think, but may have been Dean of College of Arts & Sciences) at the University of Alabama.

"We are all very fond of our "southern white trash" leader."

LOL

That Scot-Irish blood's fine, Mudcat, but I hope you understand that for most of this country's history, it's not been on the side of my blood, good folks exceptions notwithstanding.

What I've always been amazed by is how "southern white trash" has always been manipulated by the rich white trash, to go for their interests, versus the common interests of poor people in general. Race was used as a wedge to not only keep my black folks down, but white folks down too. Only in rare cases, like during the Progressive Party movement, did you see those white and black interests start to coalesce. And that didn't last long.

Mudcat may be tangled up in captcha kudzu - or just overwhelmed by the questions.

"Well, I have to recommend to Craig and Mudcat "White Trash Cooking" by Ernest Matthew Mickler."
pogo, don't forget his other one "sinkin spells, hot flashes, fits and cravins." just as good.

LOL I prefer to think it's the captcha kudzu pogo.

Pogo..Mr. Mudcat may be catching dinner as I type this!

"Religious leaders are not -- or at least they should not be -- political leaders. That's what politicians are for. Let's keep them far apart."

And that's the truth!

Or Craig could transcribe since they're on the phone together.

Hi KG Cracker....good to see you.

Russia moving rocket launchers into Georgia. US seeking permission to put "war ships" in black sea to provide humanitarian supplies.

Could get interesting if you like Chinese curses, "May you live in interesting times."

Must work...but what great day...Mudcat in the afternoon and Thomas in the evening!

Hey Mr Mudcat...

thanks for coming to this blog...... welcome....

there's already lots of questions..... I won't pile on....

Correct...it is all the Captcha bullshit. I have typed and typed and typed. If the don't get the Captcha right the first time, it erases everything. Call me Craig, and you can post the short answers for me

patd, I have them both - in fact they sit in a place of honor with about 10 "local" cookbooks I have, including teh Tuscaloosa, AL junior league cookkbook that has recipes of Bear Bryan't's wife, and his books are the only ones I actually read instead of just referred to. I worked at the UofA when his did was a dean there. Can't really say I knew him or his dad although I did meet them both. My boss was best friends with his dad.

Well, hate to miss Mudcat's answers - I'll check up on it later - but have to go - tile's in.

MD
Good points about The dynamics of poor whites and black but I think those relations you are talking about apply more to the plantation south.

Up in the hill country things are a little more complicated. there were very few slaves, they cost money first to buy and then to maintain. There is little money in the hills even today. As to why some folks went union and some went confederate it mostly had to do with where they had imigrated from. So they chose side by loyalty to their people rather than any economic reason. From what I've seen this applies to most borderstate areas.
Where I come from your basic loyalty is family, neighbors, community, then the rest of the world

Jack

Jack

Mud cat

Welcome to our world.
Solutions
1, type it in your word proccesor first the cut and paste in the comment box.

Or highlight your comment and copy it to your clipboard just befor you click submit. that way if it screws you you can pate your comment back into a new reply.

Jack

craig, If he wants to sign up for type key, the authorization code will work if he does it with two windows open.

Chloe, you're right on the money--impressionable children--to quote Wright (as he humped the podium) "Bill was riding dirty"
Now that's something all children should be taught ina Church---NOT!

And Wright at the National Press Club--It was all hate!
People that don't agree with you on this are just picking a fight they can't win.

You're one of the best.

Thank you Tweed. So are you!

Jamie

Just checked my Official George W Bush Out of Office Countdown Calender.
154 days left

So close yet, that is a life time for a bushie in screwups.

Jack

To chole...you hit the nail right on the head. I call the strategy the Webb Coalition. It comes from an op-ed piece Jim wrote in the Wall Street Journal in 2004. If you go to Jameswebb.com and hit artices, it's there. The title is something like the "GOP's Secret Weapon". Did I say all the things in the Times? Yea, I said 'em, but I said more to them, too. The most important is what Webb says in the last paragraph of his piece, and that is once urban blacks and rural whites realize their problems are a mirror image of each other we will then kick the big sons of bitches' asses who have screwed both groups. We are not at the top of the mountain that Dr. King talked about, but we're getting there. Gore got beat by 16 in rural America, and Kerry got beat by 19. All Obama has to do is hold the Kerry vote, turn around one out of 6 Bush votes, and he wins rural America and the election.

Jack,

I agree. And I can argue that this same ethic is held in the African American community. Ever notice how hip-hop artists are always touting where they're from? South Bronx, Compton, etc. Family first, neighbors, then community, and the "other". It's just in our case, our racial component ties us together versus one region, mainly because the great majority of us can't connect ourselves to a region other than a continent. But our African American clannishness is why I've said in the past that for the most part, white liberals who think they KNOW black folks because their kids play soccer together, or because they have a "best friend" at work, is mostly a croc. If you KNOW black folks so well, why are most whites shocked by Reverend Wright, a minister whose preaching is replicated in black churches nationwide. And this is from the grandson of a minister. I grew up with it. See, in this country, we have few true honesty moments. Who gets to define the reality of that moment is what either causes the divide or brings us together.

Wow! Thanks Mudcat.

Mudcat,

I agree with that. But there's one issue with Barack that prevents that. I grew up taking a Greyhound to Texas so I could stay with relatives for the summer. That meant I learned to shoot quail and eat it without knowing what PETA meant. I've seen my grandmother wring a chicken's neck and then fry it up to make the sweetest fried chicken ever. And that's what a lot of black kids did. You went South to stay with your relatives and keep the family connection going. Barack is African American culturally, but doesn't have that cultural memory. So sitting down with rural whites doesn't resonate with him because he doesn't have something to tie it to. And you can't make it up. If I were to sit at that table, I'd have NO problem talking about how when people say "stuffing" instead of "dressing" it makes me want to scratch my eyes out. But he doesn't. In order for him to have that, he's going to have to get a 78 day training and quick to "learn" how to be authentic.

Secret GOP Weapon
The Scots-Irish vote.
by JAMES WEBB

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005798

Mr. D

"I'd have NO problem talking about how when people say "stuffing" instead of "dressing" it makes me want to scratch my eyes out. "

This one needs to be included in one of "what kind of English do you speak?" tests. It is DRESSING darn it.

Mr. Democrat- Yeah, those "Scotch- Irish" were "particularly racist when it came to African-Americans" that is why there are so many AAs in this country with Irish surnames. Are you aware that your statement would be considered offensive and racist in most circles?

Seahag

I'm going to do something unusual.
MD has a point
there is a lot of racism in the hills but there is also a lot of distrust of anybody not a member of the group. That is why they are called clannish, not because they run around dressed up in white sheets. The trick is to work around that natural mistrust. I saw Jessi jackson almost do it in 84 with his rainbow coalition. I saw farmers stop and listen to his argument.

Jack

Jack, that is true. Jackson almost did. And the best legislators do tie together issues from both urban and rural. Here's a perfect example.

The Dept of Agriculture is primarily a rural department, obviously. However, the issue of access to fresh fruits and vegetables is a huge issue in the inner cities. They're called food deserts. By having small rural farmers set up farmers markets in the inner city, you help both survive. And the Dept. of Ag has allocated 30 mill toward this effort. Doing things like that helps bridge the gaps.

Sea,
Do not listen to them.

Dog. You know exactly the part I was talking about.

Consider the source Dog.

But one caveat: African Americans do have plenty Scot-Irish blood in us. Just that it came while here in the US as slaves, which accounts for our skin color diversity.

Chloe....
thanks so much for linking that Jim Webb article.... it was a fascinating read...

You're welcome Renee. I haven't even read the whole thing yet. I've got some work I have to do, so I bookmarked it.

Chloe, Thanks for posting Paul Krugman's Its the economy stupor this a.m.

Now comes---Sally Quinn WAPO
"Worlds Apart-McCain's Clarity vs. Obama's Nuance

Her interpretation of the Saddleback event illustrates
what Mudcat Saunders was stating in the Times article.

Time for Team Obama to have more Mudcat clarity, less Quinn nuance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/17/AR2008081702080.html

MD

Thanks for the honesty today.

Maybe that scots irish blood explains the bullheadedness. ;-)
Also don't forget we are all human and one thing I do know about humans is they do screw around.
Some look for comfort and sme adventure.

Busy with supper
Ginger chicken.
later
Jack

Oldseahag, you really think that the population of African Americans with Irish surnames trace their heritage to Iberian and Spanish heritage? Oh god, is this what they're talking about the "uninformed voter" in the electorate? Here's where my name from, oldseahag. My family were slaves in South Texas and they were owned by a man who not only is famous in the state, but has a school named after him. They took the name because they were called "Blank's niggers". That was told to my mother by my great-great grandfather who's father was a slave on that plantation. So I have "Blank's" name as my own. And no, we're not connected to the Iberian coast.

LOL at Jack. Back at you.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129533

Coreen, Yes.
More clarity. Can you imagine if everyone just said what they were thinking (like mudcat) instead of all the game playing.

There'd be no end to what we could accomplish.

Thanks Chloe , you're a sweetheart!

LOL Dog, You may be right.

You're welcome Sea.

But I'd like to thank you for saying all that so well.

Craig,

Thank you for bringing your friend Mudcat here.

I have to admit, you've really made my day.

gotta go.

No Mr. D. ,You seem to be uninformed- the term Black Irish does not in any ways refer to AAs.

Like, totally, SoetorObama tells, like, all US Americans that it’s, like, totally above his pay grade

http://hillbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/like-totally-soetorobama-tells-like-all-us-americans-that-its-like-totally-above-his-pay-grade/

Is it just me, or was Mudcat's vaunted "appearance" here today pretty much all hat, no cattle?

Guy needs to learn how to work a computer. For all the talk about how great it was that he showed up, I counted only one post of any substance. The rest was all about him fumble-fingering around Typekey.

Gee thanks for the insight, Mudcat. We already knew Typekey sucks.

Damn consultants.

Mr Mudcat......if you get the wrong catchpaw, click on the green "BACK" arrow, and then click on the "comment anonymously" and your post will return.

This is why I love living in Florida. As Fay approaches, we get to enjoy headlines like this:

"Seaworld Moves Anteater To Safety"

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_weather_hurricane/2008/08/seaworld-moves.html

For those of you that really believe that McCain cheated on the forum questions--please! This is a man who almost to a fault values his honor. I think the Obama people just can not accept that McCain did better-- What poor loosers---I am not a Republican but I can truly say yes McCain did great and Obama was very poor. I have always suspected Obama can only deliver so called "inspiring" speaches with little substance. Andrea Mitchel just will not let go of this story will she? Sort of reminiscent of the Hillary coverage.

Obama Guarantees Victory and Nancy Pelosi Gives All Credit to God

"He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him “a leader that God has blessed us with at this time.”

How extraordinarily delusional is that."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/18/obama-guarantees-victory-and-nancy-pelosi-gives-all-credit-to-god/

Dog...

LOL...all the "cool" people have their own trolls. Some people even are willing to pay good money for the service!!

Jane,

What part of McCain's "honor" included dumping the wife who waited for him during years in a POW camp, just because she became diminished and misshapen? What part of his "honor" informed his use of the worst word in the English language to berate his younger trophy wife for putting on too much makeup?

Give me a break about him valuing his honor. He's a politician, not to mention a hound dog.

I agree , you are bold. Were you never taught to debate without making caustic and confrontational statements? Try it sometime, It really is far more challenging, satisfying and polite.

Mr. D

When Sea was talking about "black Irish" having Iberian heritage, she wasn't talking about AAs. Supposedly at the the time of the Spanish Armada, sailors from some of the sunken ships

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish

This has the markings of legends and coloration of hair and eyes may have any number of sources, but "black irish" as a description of heritage has no connection with slavery.

Obama's childhood records vindicate Corsi book

"The most convincing evidence Obama was living in Indonesia as a Muslim, not simply registered as Muslim because his father was Muslim, comes from Obama's experience at the government-run public school at SDN 1 Menteng, Jakarta, not from his time at the Catholic Assisi School in Jakarta," Corsi argued.

Tine Hahiyary affirmed that Barry Soetoro had been registered as a Muslim and took part actively in the Islamic religious lessons during his time at the school.

"I remembered that Barry studied 'mengaji,'" she told reporters.

"Mengaji" involves recitation of the Quran

"To put it quite simply, 'mengaji classes' are not something that a non-practicing or so-called moderate Muslim family would ever send their child to," wrote the 'An American Expat in Southeast Asia' blog."

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72667

Gordo

I still don't understand why you think there is anything wrong with a child attending the school to which he was sent by him mother and step father and participating in the lessons taught in that school

He was a child. He had absolutely no control over his surroundings, his school, his lessons, or the family decisions.

Making anything more of it than that is profoundly stupid.

I just we could all be as idly beautiful and idly well-dressed as people in soap operas, who also seem to lounge around all day with nothing to do. (We've got that last part down pat).

Then this site would be perfect!

?

Sea - I agree with you about the Black Irish designation, altho it has been used as a pun by a lot of people, some of them AA. The name Costello is also Irish.

Chloe - Like you, I'm of several minds re Black Liberation Theology, but then I feel the same way re most theologies. It's when you get to the details that trouble starts. I have no doubt that Reverend Wright has done marvelous work in his community and for his parishoners, and am disgusted with the way Obama criticized him for things Obama had to have known for years.

I've read a little from conflicting sources re Black Liberation Theology, and am not sure which, if either,
is correct or fair. I think where I start to question is the philosophy behind it. I have no problem with the idea of a black Jesus - he for sure wasn't northern European. Condemnation of all whites strikes me as basically ridiculous, but don't know if that is really a tenet. Separatism is beyond the pale.

I do believe that Black Liberation Theology is consumed with hate, and I do not like the emotional preaching, but then I think religion goes arm in arm with emotionalism. That's not just Black Liberation Theology.

There's a show on re the top waterfront homes in the u.s on hgtv. It reminds me of something Socrates is supposed to have said, like : what a number of things I neither need nor want. Amen.

Jamie...

It's Chinatown, Jake. Don't worry about it.

Translation: It's GORDO Jake...

Like...

Fetishisizing acronyms such as "COLB" (Certificate Of Live Birth) when most people in normal conversation would just say "birth-certificate."

But it is not enough to simply fetishisize said acronyms, to announce some secret level of expertise, but to also chastise others who don't know the acronyms....which is something GORDO did to someone here the other day.

It's typical "IT-Guy" techie behavior: "WE are in the know, and you cubicle dwellers are just a bunch of stupid ninnies. WE have the Nextel phones dangling on our ass belts...and you DON'T. WE know how the computer works! Step Away From The Computer!"

GORDO is basically an IT guy clinging to his knowledge of specifics in hopes that it will camoflauge his lack of common sense.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

That said, I still enjoy Gordo's posts.

on pbs one of the talking heads said that musharaff has been offered immunity from prosecution, will go to dubai and then to new mexico. wonder if richardson brokered that deal.

Gordo, loved the video! Lard, I had a feeling someone would bring up McCain's first marriage. I really think that is a whole other area and he did cite his marriage as a moral failing. I can not believe I am defending John McCain but I am beginning to think despite my opposition to his views he actually has more character. Many of those military types have imperfect relations with women. Regarding the so called "awful" word he used with his wife I think that was overblown. He is known to use "salty" language and she seems devoted to him so explain that....

Jamie --------------------------------------

Here we go again!!!

It's about telling the TRUTH. Of course, little Barry had no control over anything. It's not about being Muslim, it's about lying to the American people and the world. This will be one of the major attack lines pushed by the Repubs. It's starting! Believe me or not - all indications are that the Repubs have devastating evidence that will "destroy" Obama.

This is from Obama's "Fight the Smears" site:

"Senator Obama is a committed Christian. He has never been Muslim, and was not raised in that faith."

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome

Jane...

I love you...but McCain is CRAZY. We're talking Signal 20 Crazy. Sprayed-roach crazy.

Don't even go there, girlfriend.

You can't vote for him, or even sympathize with him.

Mudcat,

Kiss my ass. You're no better (or worse) than any other mercenary. Come back if you want, but don't expect to have your ass smooched as much as it was today.

Lardass.

Gordo- Last week, after the school record was posted, I read several blogs that mentioned the Obama site had been changed from "never a muslim" to "never a practicing muslim" . I just read them and never followed any links. I see on your link that it remains "never a muslim" .

Most of you people are IT idiots & to act like you know - when you don't is hilarious and pitiful.

Obama is an American. This is my job. Lay-off!

Birth Certificate (BC) and Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) are not the same thing. BCs have much detailed info, COLBs have just the basic info. There is a very big difference. Hawaii only sends out COLBs to people when they request a document (for ID) - at least that is what has been reported.

Obama is an American. This is my job. Lay-off!

Posted by: GORDO | August 18, 2008 8:21 PM

===================================

Not my post.

LL you laugh at anything when you are drinking.

Obama is an American. This is my job. Lay-off!

Posted by: GORDO | August 18, 2008 8:21 PM

===================================

Not my post.
___________________________________

Not my post

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129239
Flatus: For too many years to know for sure,The Kentucky Post was combined in The Cincinnati Post .. Last Summer they stopped printing The Kentucky Post all together .. but it was just as well .. if we had 4 pages of Northern KY news, we were lucky, that's counting sports too ...
No, it's easier & you get more news on line .. sad, but afraid the word of print won't be around much longer .. especailly when you can now go on line, download & print off your own coupons .. I've got links if you want them ..

By way of explanation to all of those who have kissed "Mudcat's" ass so fervently today:

You "bloggers" advertise yourselves as the new guardians of democracy, the replacement for old, boring "MSM" journalists. Yet you allow one third-rate celebrity like "Mudcat" to show up on your blog, and you just go ga-ga and start kissing his butt. Like he's fuggin Lindsey Lohan or something.

Here's a news bulletin: All those old, stodgy "MSM" journalists you are so hasty to diss aren't necessarily as impressed as you are by colorful people named "Mudcat." In fact, we were trained to pick chunks out of our shit every day that are bigger than colorful people named "Mudcat". As far as we are concerned, he's just another political hack.

We talked to him, sure. But he didn't get to be the burning bush on Mt. Sinai. We talked to other people too.

And guess what? We're all getting laid off and downsized and losing our jobs, because the newspaper industry is tanking. So folks like "Mudcat" now get to have free reign, and come onto sites like this and act like celebrities. Even though they are still what they have always been -- mercenaries for hire.

So keep on kissing his ass. And I'll keep on being bitter about the evolution of "watchdog media" in America.

And keep laughing at the demise of newspapers.

measured voting:
no high school diploma = no vote
High School diploma = 1/2 vote
College Diploma and better - 1 vote

Craigggggggggg
Blog Daddyyyyyyyyyy
Kill the Aliases Pleassssssssssssss

The multiple voices in my head are conversing with the multiple voices in front of my eyes. Help

LL isn't this a "free" country? Ever think of getting some employable skills?

Lardo

What is the matter with you tonight. I barely know who Mudcat is other than a couple of columns, but he is a friend of Craigs and I greeted him as such. Others like his material and were happy for a chance to speak with him. That is hardly "ass kissing"

Don't know what put the burr under your saddle tonight, but I hope it goes away soon and our usually cheerful and funny Lardo returns.

I listened to ONE question asked on that ridiculous religious interrogation.

I found it distasteful, un-American, & insulting.

tt

You're welcome.

It's too late.

Jane - I have to say that I consider myself capable of using "salty" language, and if McCain used the word he is said to have used to his wife and in public, that is not "salty." Frankly, I think it is pathological, and I think it is also a very violent word. Either you hear the word often or never have before, but it is beyond the pale.

Some people who want to make their fortune by being shocking seem to be trying to introduce the word into common parlance, but that will take time. It is a violent violent word. It might also be indicative of deep-seated misogyny. All of that might not be true of McCain and maybe he really didn't say it - but if he did, it's disturbing and way beyond "salty." Just my opinion.

As for character, it is impossible to detect most people's character in my opinion. The most recent example is John Edwards. I wonder what Mudcat would have had to say about him.

I still trying to figure out finger fumbling. Or was it fumble fingering.? LOL Whatever it sounds a little risque!

too late for you - obviously

I was talking about you.

Jamie:

"Mudcat" said nothing interesting or new on this blog. He wrote (or was interviewed for) an interesting article that was linked. He made one substantive comment. But the rest was just him bumbling and fumbling about not being able to log on through TypeKey. What's the value in that?

Yet, the dynamic here has been "Thank you, Mudcat!"..."Thank you for coming!"

Meanwhile, I'm just trying to say that in the (old) world of journalism, people like "Mudcat" were a dime a dozen. That's what's got a bee in my bonnet.

I hope that answers your question.

I was talking about the moon.

dinner is being served by the pool. later.

Stop being such an ass reality

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129257

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, PATSI!! sounds like you had a good time with your family ...

viv

LL was a - who what where when why -guy back in the day

Dog,

Yes.
25 years.
Senior management.
Many awards, and all that bullshit.

Now just a fossil.

And forced to watch "new media" types drool when a standard-issue political consultant comes onto their site.

What about his being a friend of Craig's who was invited to come here by Craig?

Helen Thomas "THank you Mr. President starting

sour grapes LL?

I've said what I've had to say. Over and out.

Lardo

I'll just sit on this piece of petrified forest and fan your poor aged but well honored bones with palm fronds until you feel better.

Jamie...thanks for mocking me. I appreciate it. Really.

Lardass...

I'm with you on the Mudcat thing...couldn't believe the sucking up I witnessed this afternoon. Of course, I had him totally confused with Catfish Hunter, and spent most of his visit trying to figure out why his opinion was so danged important...other than the brilliance he showed in supporting Edwards early on. At least, I now know who he is....

So Lardass, Does the mudcat have a point.?

I find myself being of 2 minds. First I go hell yeah we could. Then reality sets in and I say those crazy f***'s ya got to be joking.

Jack

Jamie - I agree re the aliases, but my gripe is that they don't make sense since there's no way of knowing which post they are replying to - or if they're even replying to anything on the blog. Maybe they're having conversations with voices in their heads. Either way, they just plain don't make sense.

what happened toPatsi birthday?

I suspect she is out celebrating the big 60
only one way to celebrate it imo

Drunken debauchery.

Have fun Patsi

Jack

Jack...you asked:

Does Mudcat have a point?

This is where I must confess my own ignorance. Because I was so disgusted by the drooly, ga-ga reception of his simple presence here, I didn't devote much time to what he was actually saying. Which wasn't much, but based on the articles in which he was quoted...I would say, yes, he probably has a pretty good point.

Harbor...

Funny post. Jim "Catfish" Hunter was an idol of my childhood. He was one of the few Kansas City A's pitchers who brought respect to my hometown!

Viv- Just found this and see that you are in KY, Have you heard anything about this or can you supply a link that is less controversial ?http://heidilipotpourri.blogspot.com/2008/08/so-much-for-benefit-of-doubt-dnc.html

Oops sorry- meant this link

-http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/18/kentucky-clinton-supporters-protest-clinton-delegate-replacement/

If I may intrude my humble opinion--

1. This is not an issue of separation of church and state. This was an old-fashioned baby-kissing, hand-shaking event designed to present both candidates to a large population of evangelical voters. Though Warren may have said "No stump speeches," the speakers did just this. It's not a matter of muddying the church/state divide--it's just a way to garner more votes.

2. Neither candidate was solid on anything that an Evangelical Christian would agree with, but then, I tend to find many evangelicals willing to believe anything said in a church, and Obama was good enough at saying the "right-sounding" things to deflect any real criticism of what he said.

3. I think the whole process was a joke anyway; the questions that differed in each of the sessions were clearly slanted, and McCain was provided with some of the answers in the questions he received (I think of the stem-cell question specifically here).

Politicians are never going to give any good answers in a religious forum, anyway, especially if nationally televised. Watching this deluded attempt to gain support from both sides was laughable and uninspiring, and leaves me cold to either candidate.

I wasn't mocking. I was trying to make you laugh.

Viv- Just found this and see that you are in KY, Have you heard anything about this or can you supply a link that is less contro
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/18/kentucky-clinton-supporters-protest-clinton-delegate-replacement/
versial

Editor's review of Revo Uninstaller

"5.0 stars "Uninstall like a pro"

Where the built-in and sluggish Windows Add or Remove Programs option fails, freeware Revo picks up the slack.

Another cool function is the Hunter, which offers click-and-drag uninstall and process-killing functionality. Revo and the way that it will revolutionize your uninstall workflow is hard to pass up."

http://www.download.com/Revo-Uninstaller/3000-2096_4-10687648.html?tag=mncol&cdlPid=10854684

Editor's review of Glary Utilities

"4.0 stars "Glary offers a helping hand"

This powerful application offers extensive utilities to improve your system's performance and protect your privacy. Glary Utilities' well-organized interface allows users to easily choose from several tools.

Overall, users who are looking for an effective and easy-to-use application to keep their system in tip-top shape should try this one out."

http://www.download.com/Glary-Utilities/3000-2094_4-10508531.html?tag=mncol&cdlPid=10866010
=============================
Editor's review of Sweepi

"4.0 stars"

Not many freeware system cleaning utilities combine functionality, efficiency, and good design as well as this toolset. Sweepi's fluid interface changes to meet the goals of each tool.

Sweepi's prime file removal function is well designed and very flexible. The dozens of file areas the program checks can be easily tested individually, in select groups, or all at once."

http://www.download.com/Sweepi/3000-2094_4-10396037.html?tag=mncol&cdlPid=10691307

Sea,

you had a dash on the front of the link

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/18/kentucky-clinton-supporters-protest-clinton-delegate-replacement/

Dear Jamie:

No worries. I've just got my Irish up. (Black Irish, as a matter of fact).

And screw the "Scots-Irish"...they don't have jackshit to do with the real Irish who were driven to this country by British starvation policies, and then discriminated against for their Roman-Catholic religion, and then either dealt with or fought their way out of major urban centers to make a life. (Like my own ancestors, just two steps off the boat ago).

Mudcat, if you're still listening, that history has nothing to do with you and your Confederate Flag bedspread. So please stop lumping it together. (Even though I totally understand your bedspread, and appreciate the sentiments behind it).

I know, sorry Jamie!

That blog post you linked first about the convention rules for chair and roll call was interesting as well

http://heidilipotpourri.blogspot.com/2008/08/so-much-for-benefit-of-doubt-dnc.html

Pelosi as chair is going to ruin the convention for me. I may have to watch it on mute. Blindfold won't work so my low smirk threshold is going to get a workout.

Here's a message for all The Obama Wingnuts; Rev. Warren, said " At the beginning of the forum, he was going to give Obama and McCain one of the questions, he was going to ask, but because McCain, was late getting there, only Obama, got the question." See his party is so stupid, that didn't even realize that it was he who had the upper hand,but yet they turn around, and because he had such a bad showing, try to accuse McCain of cheating. I'm sorry but I will take Rev. Warren's word over Obama and his supporters anyday.

Jamie, Living in CA I figure you must be quite familiar with her . Her quote today "Blessed by God...." Is this common for her to refer to blessings and God or is she just exhibiting the new Party? I'll be watching with clicker in hand too, especially if they air the faith based seminars!.

Have a good night folks.

Lard & Mudcat - I appreciate the idea of the bedspread
also, but have to say that I hate hate hate that flag. A lot of men and boys and women died, both confed-erate and union, and they all should be recognized, not just confederate.

I do think Mudcat has the right of it. Dems have got away with a lot of indifference to the rural south, but with new technology bringing everything out into the open, they're gonna have to listen to all - and by the way, that includes us old women they think they don't need.

There are other views that Mudcat has expressed before that I think are downright ridiculous. I suspect that he's used to that, tho.

Bethy
I have long suspected that being a character is stock and trade for Mudcat, just as it is for James Carvelle. I think he poses an interesting question. (how do you unite two groups with common needs in the face of a historic animosity) The face off has served the elites in both party well. I see no will in the Democratic party to court poor southern whites. they would have to stop waving the bloody flag of racism. I don't see the Republicans courting blacks in great numbers either, racism has served them well.

Jack

Jack - absolutely, and I tend to love the characters. Carville is just about my favorite, probably because he can love his truly annoying wife - I give them both a lot of credit for that.

What strikes me, tho, is that the south is opening up and more and more of its value is going to be clear.
God knows the south has produced a huge portion of our great literature. I'd like to see Obama be the first to recognize this, and not let the votes go to McCain by default. Frankly, I don't think his campaign is capable of such insight.

I say this altho I don't ever want to visit the south again, and I really really don't want to ever see a plantation house. I hate the history but think the people are fine and should be respresented.

Lardass...

I shall be forever grateful to the cosmos that I didn't try to ask Mr. Mudcat about his baseball days!

This is an angry Bill Clinton with Peter Jennings . The Nightline episode was not mentioned, but that was one of many things ABC (and others) had done to the Clintons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wJMO7cmhHo

Posted by: GORDO | August 18, 2008 1:03 PM

THANKS GORDO for posting this link .. I enjoyed watching it & several others on there ... It still boggles the mind that after all this time, people still think that Bill did something so terrible .. it was a blow job, for pete's sake!!! and it was Ken Star & anyone else's business!!!

JMHO

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129438

CRAIG: He's not the only one who can't read those darn letters .. for almost a week Ihad to do that, grrrrrrr

thank goodness the Bethy came to my rescue
!:^}
viv

HW
lol
Who knows maybe mudcat has some baseball days.

It has been an interesting day.
We found out that John McCain isn't the only political type that can't run a computer.

I had my first normal exchange with MD and I do thank him for sharing his thoughts.

I'm not sure what set Lardass off but I'm begining to think he believes it is an insult to be cofused with those Ulster folks.
BTW a History instructor of mine pointed out that the Scotch/Irish are neither Scot nor Irish. But are borderland English, who first had a lot of experience fighting first the Scots and then were migrated to Ulster to settle the "Irish problems". After that those mountains must have looked like heaven.

Jack

There is nothing new about candidates speaking to religious groups. More than 50 years ago, Adlai Stevenson spoke to, I believe, the Baptist convention. When he was being introduced, the host commented that Stevenson was there simply as a gesture of courtesy, since members had already been instructed/urged to vote against him by Rev. Norman Vincent Peale. Stevenson opened his remarks by saying that, as a Christian, the Apostle Paul was very appealing to him, but the apostle Peale was very appalling to him. By that standard, neither Obama nor McCain were very appealing.

LOL
Baptist are such a group of followers.

As the old joke goes , ask 3 Baptist about the bible and get 4 opinions.

Jack

Church Chat (Dana Carvey)

http://www.jibjab.com/view/171311

http://www.jibjab.com/view/179415

There. Take that.

tt

I have to laugh at Obama's complaint about McCains knowing the questions. He didn't seem to mind at all when Hillary had to take all the questions first and he could just elaborate on her good answers. I want him to go down BIG!

Jack - what I undersand is that the Scots-Irish were protestant and very against the Catholic church which accounts for the differentiation between the Irish and the Scots-Irish. That worked out well to settle the Irish problem, didn't it?

Howdy Possee!

We're about arrived at the conventionpaloozas, so I thought it was time to come down from the belfry and make a quick report on the Intrade Vice-Presidential Futures Markets.

For those new to futures markets, please go to www.intrade.com. For the 2008 Presidential Nominee races, the market correctly predicted individual state winners 80% of the time, and correctly ranked the order of finish in those races with more than 2 candidates 75% of the time.

To make things simple, I've converted the contract prices to "odds," similar to that in horse-racing...If anything starts to break prior to any VP announcements, I'll post a comment.

POTENTIAL DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE ODDS

Evan Bayh: 5 to 1
Joe Biden: 4 to 1
Hillary Clinton: 12 to 1
Wesley Clark: 12 to 1
Bill Richardson: 83 to 1
Al Gore: 24 to 1
Sam Nunn: 33 to 1
Tom Daschle: 42 to 1
Mark Warner: 67 to 1
Jim Webb: 143 to 1
Ted Strickland: 167 to 1
Bob Kerry: 167 to 1
Tom Vilsack: 250 to 1
John Edwards: 500 to 1
Field (any other candidate): 4 to 1

POTENTIAL REPUBLICAN VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE ODDS

Mit Romney: 4 to 1
Tim Pawlenty: 4 to 1
Mike Huckabee: 24 to 1
Kay Bailey Hutchinson: 29 to 1
Condolezza Rice: 33 to 1
Rudy Giuliani: 45 to 1
Fred Thompson: 125 to 1
Jeb Bush: 500 to 1
Field (any other candidate): 3 to 1

Thanks Spike, encouraging numbers for my horse, the Distinguished Senator from Indiana.
I also have predicted Romney will be tapped by McCain.

I am recording the HBO Helen Thomas show now from the west coast feed off the satellite. I bet it's good...she's been so good for so long...I can remember her from as far back as LBJ.

And as far as "Generation Kill" goes, it got better as the Marines marched on...many insights into true military combat life (and death). I had my doubts, but after six episodes, a definite thumbs-up.

Dex,

Between Bayh and Biden, I think Evan's got the nod. I can't imagine Obama wants anyone that's going to 1) will get out in front of him on an issue, or 2) is going to upstage him in any way. If you want a wallflower that will quietly do what's ask of them, Bayh's your guy...However, even with all the people available for contracts (16 total), the Field contract (anyone not already listed) has almost the same contract price as Biden (the current favorite).

In other words, there is not clear market favorite....

Coney Island may never be the same...here's how it looked through Drag Queen Dainty Adora's eyes in 1986:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHLZ3xalrg4

Dex,

Helen Thomas a favorite. do not have hbo. WIll this be on you tube - or is it too long?

Julie

Spike, I never really thought Bayh was gonna get the nod, as he campaigned loudly for HRC. I just like him for personal reasons, met him a couple times, and he is the darling of all native Hoosiers like me.

I called him "my horse" , but that was just sentimental.
I am betting on Biden, above the field.

I still view Biden as the Christopher Lloyd "mad scientist" pol--- most can't understand his Iraq-divide plan, and Biden is really confident HIS way is THE way to go in The Region. I can see Biden and Obama bumping heads over Iraq, and that is the only reason I think Bayh may have a slim chance.
It's heartening indeed to see that Webb is such a longshot...I never "made-up" with any Reagan Democrat, and I never will. The further we move away from Reagan the better.

It's 45 minutes, julie young, HBO would yank it off YouTube in a heartbeat if it made it through at all.
Ya gotta spring for HBO...most movies there are old films that are low box-office sellers, but the Sunday night specials and other fare make it can't-miss TV.

Dex

Thanks, wish I could.. would love to have seen it.

julie

Viv- Just found this and see that you are in KY, Have you heard anything about this or can you supply a link that is less controversial ?http://heidilipotpourri.blogspot.com/2008/08/so-much-for-benefit-of-doubt-dnc.html
posted by: oldseahag | August 18, 2008 9:27
-------------------
SEA: Here's the Local Channel "WHAS - 11", that's investigating it .. I've only heard what;'s reported here, nothing else ...

http://www.whas11.com/news/local/stories/WHAS11_POLITICS_080814_CLINTONOBAMA.486a4d97.html

could you email me?
amblush617@yahoo.com

!:^}
viv

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129646

Gordo: could you email me, please? have a question for you ...
amblush617@yahoo.com

!:^}
viv

Pelosi as chair is going to ruin the convention for me. I may have to watch it on mute. Blindfold won't work so my low smirk threshold is going to get a workout.

Posted by: Jamie | August 18, 2008 9:48 PM
------------

agree with ya .. watched her a few weeks ago & ugh, wasn't pretty, lol .. can't stand her at all .. gives working women bad name .. yeash!!!

jmho ...
!:^}
viv

ALL THIS MAKE SENSE
From ABC's Jake Tapper
August 17, 2008 2:10 PM

RENO, NEV. - At a town hall meeting at Wooster High School just now, a questioner whom Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, had called on assailed the Vietnam service of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

"He was the fattest prisoner that got off the plane!" said the man. "He doesn't want to talk about how he turned in all those names."

With some impatience in his voice, Sen. Obama interrupted the man to ask if he had a question, and after the man offered a couple queries, Obama said, "respectfully, I'm going to disagree with you when it comes to McCain and his service. I think his policies are horrible, I think his service was honorable."

The crowd applauded.

The moment stood in stark contrast with a moment in the 2004 election, when a town hall questioner told President George W. Bush about his then-opponent, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., "‘We got a candidate for president out here with two self-inflicted scratches, and I take that as an insult."

"Well, I appreciate that, thank you," said President Bush, who himself did not serve in Vietnam.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/obama-disagrees.html

Dex,

From what I've seen of the Obama machine over the last year and a half (remember, I'm in Iowa), it's Obama's way or the highway...They're going to be looking for someone who won't rock the boat or outshine Obama. Biden doesn't fit those criteria.

I sat through one of Bayh's "exploratory" campaign stops early last summer. He was testing his economic position speech. In a room of 15 people, I almost dosed off a couple times. Exactly what Obama would be looking for. And he's got all the correct credentials -- Governor, Senator, foreign policy experience, DLC leader and Hillary supporter (good way to throw that wing of the party a bone and still not give up anything).

My political instincts tell me Wes Clark's still got a chance...Good soldier who knows who's the Commander-in-Chief and won't rock the internal boat. He's obviously got all the foreign policy/national security credentials, and has already tried out as the head attack dog, He's a long-time Hillary supporter (see above), AND he's not on the schedule for the DNC, even during the National Securty night where the theme is the same exact tagline as Clark's PAC (Securing America's Future). Either they've completely run over him with the bus because of his comments about McCain, or they're something afoot....hmmmm.

As I'm sitting here watching two Chinese women's teams playing beach volleyball, it occurs to me that Chairman Mao must be spinning around in his grave about now faster than a Tibetan prayer wheel...Just a thought...

Spike: Makes sense...I highly approve of Wesley Kanne Clark also. Six weeks ago I was posting here how I thought he was leading the pack for veep...then MSM tried to destroy him because of that comment on Schieffer's Sunday show. Yes, he fits the bill for the precise reasons you posted here. I would be very happy with him as veep. My nephew's connected in Illinois and Chicago, having interned with Mayor Daley and currently working for Gov. Rod Blagojevich. He left this on Facebook:

August 28th - Watch Barack Obama Accept the Democratic Nomination in Downtown Chicago
Stretch Run Sporting Club & Grill
544 N. LaSalle Street (LaSalle & Ohio)
Chicago, Illinois
Doors will open for the event at 7:30 p.m.
Tickets $40 (includes appetizers and 3 drink tickets)
For more information on any event , to RSVP or to volunteer, please call the 42nd Ward Democratic Party at 312-573-0042 or email us at 42ndward@gmail.com.

Mark My Words - if you really are 9/11, welcome back.
I've missed you.

Spike - I agree absolutely re the machine's attitude.......
everyone is a potential enemy. They are wound very tight and I am afraid of that control they intend to keep grasping.

I also agree about Biden. He's not lacking confidence and has a temper. I can see him telling off anyone he wants to even a US president. Frankly, tho, I haven't a clue whom he'll pick, but it better be a good pick.

That's not 9/11. He wouldn't use an alias.

". Either they've completely run over him with the bus because of his comments about McCain, or they're something afoot....hmmmm." http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129692

Or their going to switch him into Hillary's spot on the schedule if they pick her as vp.

He didn't seem to mind at all when Hillary had to take all the questions first and he could just elaborate on her good answers. I want him to go down BIG!
Posted by: Vanessa | August 18, 2008 11:47 PM

I remember that well Vanessa. Right on.

And forced to watch "new media" types drool when a standard-issue political consultant comes onto their site.
Posted by: LardassLiberal August 18, 2008 8:57 PM

But Lard, We drool when you come onto the site too.:)

I agree with your post Craig. I didnt watch the thing because I couldn't care less - the idea makes me uncomfortable. When Obama is revealed as simply human it will be the worse for all this posturing.