Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Are we now officially a Christian nation?

"I marvel at Barack Obama's courage going into the lion's den of evangelical Saddleback Church, where the membership skews Republican.......On the other hand, that bothered me a little bit too. I'm not sure why Obama voluntarily sat down for a nationally televised conversation about his private religious faith with a relatively conservative Christian leader, as though that's a reasonable station of the cross, so to speak, for a major American presidential candidate."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_story=/opinion/walsh/election_2008/2008/08/17/saddleback/

So let me get this right. Are the Obama people now saying, if the enlighten one doesn't do well in a debate, then the McCain must have been given the answers? Or are they just admitting what I and and a number of you already know, without a teleprompter then enlighten one's favorite word is "uh".
Isn't that the real reason why Obama doesn't want to do Town Hall meetings. He just can't think on his feet when asked unscripted questions. And what isn't news is NBC has been a Obama supporter from the very start.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12594.html

Ping Pong -- You asked me why I gripe about "big business" -- here's one good op/ed on the subject of corporate America and taxes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/opinion/18mon2.html?ref=opinion

Chloe -- good article on the evangelical sideshow.

Fry -- You know better than to question his Grand Obamaness! Be quiet, drink your Kool Aid, and remember to genuflect when you speak His name.

Quote from Craig: "At the end of the night you had to wonder why the Republican and Democratic contenders agreed to subject themselves to a minister's grilling on national television. "

Obvious Craig....everyone needs the voters. And BO needs them more.
I saw little clips on youtube and BBC and was amazed at some answers. Is it me or is JmC starting to become human? Really, I think I saw some hinesty coming from him
BO was his same old self. Confident, to a degree, with the usual uhs and ahs.... Don´t think he gained much support from this showing though.....

RENO, Nev. — Barack Obama on Sunday met with — and defended — one of the primary financers of the group that was perhaps most responsible for sinking Sen. John F. Kerry’s 2004 presidential bid.

Obama huddled privately with T. Boone Pickens in a small conference room in the bowels of a casino hotel to discuss the legendary Texas energy trader’s much-publicized energy policy proposal.But while the two men posed for pictures before the meeting, Obama was asked how it felt to be meeting with the man “who tore down” Kerry’s campaign.

Pickens, who gave $3 million to the anti-Kerry 527 group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, smiled awkwardly as Obama fielded the question.

“Ah, you know, he’s got a lot longer track record than that,” Obama said. “He’s been doing, ah, he’s a legendary entrepreneur and you know, one of the things that I think we have to unify the country around is having an intelligent energy policy.”

(Why isn't his name Ba, ah, rack Uhbama?)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12591.html

Ah, the moral failing question. How was teenage drug abuse a moral failing?

What about (select only one)
a. Staying in a church for years when that church's message was beyond the pale? or,
b. Throwing his pastor of many years under the bus?

The point is, the answer he provided is something like Mr Bush's on his profligate lifestyle. In essence, both declared themselves pure since their youthful indiscretions.

How Democrats can mine the West
The party's message appeals to the region's growing population of independents.

"As he accepts his party's presidential nomination on Aug. 28, standing a mile high at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, Barack Obama will be pressing into a landscape long thought impassable for a Democrat seeking the White House.....

Words like "hope," "change" and "opportunity" have been, for centuries, at the heart of the Western experience. They are words Washington must, and will, hear again. This year, the road to the White House runs through the West."
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-salazar18-2008aug18,0,1303864.story

"good article on the evangelical sideshow."

Thanks Patsi, I like the way you put it.

Flatus, I choose a.

Patsi,

Ah, ah-ah...ah ah umm uh ah, sorry. Must of had one of those senior moments. lol

Um, Patsi, for those of us with dysfunctional knees, would a simple prostration suffice?

Clearly, the event was set up to put the far-right at ease about McCain. However, in watching McCain toe the line, it may have pushed some Clinton supporters toward BO. He probably should have done that a month ago (instead of going on a Euro-tour) and maybe, just maybe, the convention would be going down a little differently. May not like BO, but McCain is bad, too. Hil'ry's still the best person for the job.

This morning's local paper, Columbia's 'The State' was really thin, so thin that both Stinky and I checked to see whether we had pulled it all out of the newspaper cubbyhole.

After we got through with our walk, I weighed the paper on our electronic scale; it tipped the scales at 4.1-ounces; about the same weight as five typical first class letters. And, the weight included all the advertising, display and classified.

I clip coupons. But lately the coupons in the Sunday paper are almost entirely for high mark-up items, things we generally shun. And, I'm able to scan the Wednesday supermarket ads by going to their websites.

Hard news is really punk, as well. And, they dropped their editor of editorials.

So, I pay in advance for a year every December. I'm seriously considering dropping the paper completely and asking for a refund. I hate doing this because I've subscribed to the local newspapers forever. But...

Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?

Chloe
Thanks for the Joan Walsh Salon article.I read her all the time, she is so balanced and fair.I could only read the transcipts of the Warren forum,the mix of religion and politic's makes me nervous.......

good morning gang.....

Craig....while I agree 1000% with your sentiments about separation of church and state.... I also think our opinion on this matter is irrelevant....

like it or not..... the evangelicals are a political force to be reckoned with....

and yes.... I am aware that Warren states that they are not a monolithic group...
but I bet the number of evangelicals that vote Democratic are akin to the number of blacks that vote Republican.... neither group is large enough to be taken seriously.....

and once the invitation was made by Warren for this forum.... can you imagine the fun the GOP would have had if Obama had said "no"....... and McCain didn't have much of a choice either.... imagine the outcry if he'd said no after making an appearance at the NAACP....

both candidate had to do this.... but the weird thing is the timing that Warren picked.... mid-August while the Olympics are in session.... I bet only die hard political junkies watched.... and of course, pundits.... they need something to write and talk about in an otherwise so far boring campaign....

Good Morning everyone,

Hi chloe,
I was planning on posting that Joan Walsh article, too. Again, we seem
to be channeling each other. I agree with Walsh's take on the faith forum.
I often agree with her. I think Joan and Craig are the two most fair and balanced of the current crop of political analysts.

Craig,
I completely agree with you. There was something a bit off putting about
watching two high powered, presidential candidates jumping through hoops
for this pastor in one of the most wealthy, segregated, right-leaning, conservative areas in the country. I kept wondering why McCain and Obama agreed to give this preacher so much power. Neither McCain nor Obama is running on a faith-based platform so this faith-forum seemed weirdly contrived.

I mean, who is this pastor really? Warren's claim to national fame is actually based on just one book, isn't it?

Good morning everyone!

My California sisters (actually my sil and her wife) have been visiting so I haven't had much of a chance to check in here. We were celebrating their recent legal marriage. We went to their hand fasting two years ago, and our thoughts at the time were that this is a real couple, it is a real marriage, but the law does not consider it to be so. This was just after the time that the courts shut down the San Francisco marriages. At the reception the judge in the family said that someday he wanted to preside over the legal marriage of my sil and her partner.

A week after the California Supreme Court ruling he was able to do just that. None of the East Coast family could participate, this time, since the real wedding was two years ago -- but having the legal status of marriage is very meaningful. It goes far beyond civil union since marriage automatically confers more legal rights to the couple that don't have to be spelled out in a contract.

Craig -- your post today is so right-on! I did not watch the full glurge coverage of the "Faith Forum" but what I did see in small snippets on CNN made me very uncomfortable.

I'm sick of certain churches trying to impose their definitions of marriages and families on the rest of us. Obama's definition of marriage being between "a man and a woman" is troubling to me. It's even more offensive since his own parents would not have been legally married in Virginia, where it was against the for blacks to marry whites. The GOB judges back then also used the Bible as their justification to exclude marriage between races.

I'm not opposed to people being motivated by their faith to participate in politics. I identify as a Unitarian in large part because UUs have include social justice as part of the church's missions. Churches were prominent in the struggle for civil rights (MLK Jr, et al), promoting peace ( Berrigan brothers), advocating for the homeless (CCNV founder Mitch Snyder was converted to RC by the Berrigan brothers while in prison).

I have more of a problem with are the Christian Dominionists who believe their brand of Christianity should have complete control of government -- not just participate in politics.

This is a pretty good article on Christian Dominionists:
http://www.publiceye.org/christian_right/cr_intro.html

I completely agree with you, Craig. This however is what we have come to in this country. I still say McCain performed so much more effectively than Obama on the forum. I have friends he really swayed even though they don't agree with many of his positions. I guess at least they feel he showed a little more directness and integrity in his answers. Obama keeps dodging--The abortion answer was ridiculous! There really doesn't seem to be much there. Hillary would have been great-- what a shame!

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

Yes, Flatus -- the Tennessean is smaller, and not very good these days.

mornin' all.

Somehow, I couldn't tear myself away from the Phelps and Liukin show, a nice dinner with Mrs. P. at our favorite French restaurant, cutting the grass and installing ceiling fans in LP's new room to watch a debate of sorts with no upside for Obama. Literally all I've head from the Q/A was McCain's "drill now, drill here, drill forever" mantra and his "at conception" yammer, and Obama's dodge (which I do not begrudge him since he literally had nothing to gain no matter what he answered to any question). It was enough. I cannot for the life of me understand why Obama did that event, other than what Renee said above.

btw, Renee, how was the bluse fest in my old stomping grounds? Stop into the Campton store for donuts on the way in?

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

We have a paper?

heard ... blues

Damn typos.

"Is anyone else seeing the same thing happen with their papers?"

We have a paper?

Posted by: pogo | August 18, 2008 9:07 AM

hahahhahahahahahahahhahah LOL LOL
I am dying here...LOL LOL LOL

"So much for separation of church and state.
Subjecting themselves to such an inquisition, based upon one church's social and political agenda, was unseemly on many fronts."
craig, it would have been refreshing if the candidates candidly broached the church/state issue, acknowledging and encouraging the diversity of beliefs in this country while defending their separation from gov action. we need to be reminded of the many accepted practices in our established religions that are contrary to laws governing the whole. things like gender bias or segregation in temple, synagogue, mosque or priesthood; medical care, divorce and birth control prohibitions; genital mutilation/circumcision; ostracism; mandatory tithing etc. etc.
they should make it clear that there is nothing wrong with being president and being a baptist, buddhist, muslim, wiccan or ~heaven forbid an atheist~... but you know and i know they can't.

RR -- agree about evangelical vote. As much as I despise pandering to them, I do know they are a force. How in God's name (intended) did they come to believe George W Bush was the biggest Believer of them all????

jason, my "paper" consists of bits and bytes - we of course have a newspaper of sorts here, but the first 5 minutes of the local news - at 6 or 11 - obviates the need to wade throught he same AP articles I get on line. Since my close friend and ex-colleague who was the managing editor was killed in a bicycle accident last year, the paper has gone back into the same handbasket to hell it was in before he assumed control of it. I do check the "Get off the Bench" section once a week to make sure some vitally important soccer or basketball camp or tournament won't be missed by LP, but aside from that since I don't have a bird I can't imagine actually buying our local rag.

Alicia -- Good to hear about your sil's marriage. Had a pre-birthday lunch yesterday with my sister, daughter, granddaughter and a female couple I know would love to be married. So stupid that it's even an issue.

Bragging rights: a woman was sitting next to us and stopped by the table. She started by saying: "I've been homeschooling now for fifteen years, -- and I couldn't believe what I just heard..." (I almost froze because we'd been talking a little about lesbian issues...) But then she went on, and said, "I have never in my life heard a child as young as this one say 'talapia'!"

Grandbaby is turning three October 29....

Granny turns 63 today.

And on the occasion of my birthday I'm having a difficult time not getting my granddaughter's birthday present out of the closet so I can celebrate my own b-day playing with her and the fabulous big puppet theater and puppet set I've got for her!

Warren claimed on TV las tweek that he believes in the separation of church and state (easy for a guy who heads a church that make smillions to say) but that he does not believe in the separation of faith and politics. I suppose he is focusing on governmental support of religiion in his church/state opposition (see parenthetical above). Oh, & Patsi, because GW talked all sincerely and such about his heart and about his faith saving him from the evil alcohol - the evangelicals seem to eat that sh*t up.

dah dah dah dah dah daaah, dah daaaah.

Happy Birthday, Patsi. It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

Patsi -- Happy Birthday! I hope your special day is full of lovely surprises and wonderful blessings.

Cute story about your grandbaby!

Psst...did you know that I am a homeschooler? There are a lot of us who are gay-friendly, tree-hugging, politically-liberal, open-minded -- and not anti-public schools.

Happy Birthday to you, Patsi!

Sixty is the new fabulous.

Blue,

"May not like BO, but McCain is bad, too. Hil'ry's still the best person for the job."

You and I always seem to end up on the same page politically. McCain was awful. Sure he did the "straight talk" folksyness and overworn "my friends", but virtually everything he said was Republican spin. Virtually every "goody" for the people such as health care involved a "deduction". Well if you can't afford to buy health care in the first plac a tax deduction is going to end up as a big zero.

Obama didn't please me either as he seemed very hesitant and his answers about Marriage and civil unions and the abortion questions bothered me. He never really spoke to the audience so that even when something he said pleased them, he didn't seem to connect.

My druthers would be that this sort of forum would be rejected. I like the separation of church and state and that wall has been dangerously weakened in recent decades.

Patsi, birthday girl,

I just found this website:

"Sixty is the new sexy" t-shirts.

RR,

"but I bet the number of evangelicals that vote Democratic are akin to the number of blacks that vote Republican.... neither group is large enough to be taken seriously....."

One can point to a a number of registered Afro-American voters, but evangelicals I am not so sure there is a number. There are a number of evangelicals who are silent on this matter, and because the meaning and interpretation of the word evangelicals is so broad, their numbers might be much higher than you would think.

My girl P....May u have a blessed birthday!
Granny or No granny...I admire your knowledge.

Great birthday hugs from Amsterdam......

btw, for you Olympics junkies (include me in that list) here's a link to the official site - and it is the best site to get up to date info IMHO.

http://en.beijing2008.cn/

One can point to a a number of registered Afro-American voters, but evangelicals I am not so sure there is a number. There are a number of evangelicals who are silent on this matter, and because the meaning and interpretation of the word evangelicals is so broad, their numbers might be much higher than you would think.

Posted by: FryDaddy | August 18, 2008 9:45 AM

Fully agree.
That is why BO agreed to do this. He cannot afford to let this group (that may matter in the end) go....

Right now I am listening to John McCain on CNN blab on and on about how he's going to help the veterans. Total BS -- since he's among the worst for supporting Veteran's issues in the US Senate. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080602/beutler

Pogo -- Here is another website for Olympics and other sports junkies -- www.Sportsfanlive.com is a brand-new combination of sports website and social networking.

I'm shamelessly promoting it since my friend is the website's senior editor -- and it's even fun for a not-so-much sports person like me.

I've really been enjoying their blogging 24-7 about the Olympics.

Today's thread on the BackChannel Blog

Faith Forum Assesment As Only Chef Sheila Can

http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/

Evangelicals becoming a political power despite having a doctrine that is at odds with the majority of Americans is a classic example of practical politics.

Thirty years ago, they ran for school board and led anti tax and bussing drives. Those that made it to school board went for city council and county supervisor. From there it was the leap to state legislatures and finally congressional districts. After a quarter of a century, they get a President.

How has that worked out for you? No matter what change you want to see in government, it is rarely enough to just demonstrate or lecture or demand. It means getting your foot in the door, making tiny possible changes until after years of gaining power you can finally do a takeover.

Patsi, Happy Birthday! So great that you get to share the day with your granddaughter and family. Is your birthday one of the reasons your sister chose now for a visit?

I love reading this thread today!

"...the mix of religion and politic's makes me nervous......".
Posted by: tonyb39 | August 18, 2008 8:22 AM

Me too Tony.
............................

Hi Marcia, Joan and Craig are on my good list too. What I like most about them is that they're both really nice people.

McCain was absolutely frightening. He spoke about the government spending "millions" on the DNA of bears, calling it a waste of tax payer money. He never once mentioned the billions borrowed beyond the budget for an unnecessary war and the slaughter of innocents and our own young men and women. He's all heart.

Blacks who vote R are in the 8 to 9% range.

According to the US Census, July 2007, there are approximately 29,00,000 Afro-Americans over the age of 18. What is never talked about, except when the topic of over crowding of prisons and that Blacks compose a majority of that number, is this. Of the 29,000,000 Afro-Americans over the age of 18, how many have lost their privileged to vote because of their felony conviction records.? I know that privilege can be reinstated if applied for and granted, but how many have? The figure for Afro-Americans who can not vote has to be in the millions, and as a percentage of the Afro-American population over the age of 18 has to be staggering.

on helen's documentary tonight http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/17/AR2008081702454.html

Running late, off to work.

"That is why BO agreed to do this. He cannot afford to let this group (that may matter in the end) go...."

Jason, I think you're right. Obama is looking for every chance to talk about religion because he has had to fight off false rumors so often. He almost had to do it.

Alicia

Congratulations to your sister in law and her wife making it official.

We still need a change in laws so that all committed relationships of whatever composition are "Civil Unions" as far as government is concerned.

Then the religious ceremony can be at the happy couple's option of place and type if desired but none of the government's business.

Thanks Alicia - I added it to my favorites folder. And here's a backatcha site one of my friends (dad of LP's drummer).

http://www.profootballtalk.com/

It's just pro football, but Mike does some interesting things with it - last year's big hit was the "Days without arrest" ticker (right hand banner), with the closely associated Turd Watch (button at the top).

happy, happy birthday!.... Patsi...
I LOVE your stories about your granddaughter.....

"He almost had to do it."
Chloe.... that's what I said.... except I'd take out the word "almost"....

Pogo....
we didn't go to the blues rally.....

one of Rick's cousin's daughters died in a car crash.... we found out about it late Friday night..... went to the wake Saturday morning and the funeral on Sunday.... she was only 23 yrs old and had just graduated from college this past May....

Patsi,

Best to you on your day--Happy birthday--enjoy.

Nancy Pelosi' comments welcoming Obama at a CA fundraiser should be added to the troubling mix of religion with politics.

He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."

flatus @ 7:17:
"a. Staying in a church for years when that church's message was beyond the pale? or,
b. Throwing his pastor of many years under the bus?"

I presume you are speaking about john mccains's aprupt flight from the Anglican Episcopal Church this Spring.

On the Bill Cunningham radio show (national) last night, Corsi discussed the fake COLB, Obama's refusal to release a hard copy, his Indonesian citizenship, Obama's lies about his Muslim education, the 1981 trip to Pakistan (Did he use an Indonesian passport? Remember the break in?) and more. The info was a bit scrambled, but this was a good start. These are legitimate questions that SoetorObama will be forced to answer. Come "clean" - just tell the American people the TRUTH!

An interesting perspective from Mudcat Saunders about Obama's campaign efforts in southern states.

"Dave "Mudcat" Saunders: Barack Obama's elitist campaign alienates South"

Saunders: "Sometimes they remind me of another bunch from Chicago, the Blues Brothers: they seem to think they're on a mission from God."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4553100.ece

Renee, I'm so sorry to hear that. Please pass my condolences along to Rick. So sorry to hear about his cousin (in the south that would be his 2nd cousin). That's tragic. Could you send me an e-mail to larry dot chafin at steptoe hyphen johnson dot com. I don't have your e-mail addy and would like it if you don't mind.

"Psst...did you know that I am a homeschooler? There are a lot of us who are gay-friendly, tree-hugging, politically-liberal, open-minded -- and not anti-public schools. "

Ha! Yes, Alicia, I thought about that after I had immediately assumed she was going to say something religious to us....I'm not necessarily anti-homeschooling, or charter schooling...(my thing about charters is that I don't want private enterprise to slowly replace public schools.)

Coreen, From that link you just posted:
“They think we're a bunch of hillbilly heathens who go out and burn crosses and do crazy bullshit."

I don't know if that statement is so far off. Isn't that basically what Obama said in San Francisco?

Also: "Yesterday The New York Times carried a front-page article in which more than a dozen senior Democrats urged Mr Obama to climb down from his sermonising mount and tell ordinary voters how he would improve their lives"

That paragraph sort of describes what we were talking about on the blog over the weekend. Obama needs to talk to the middle class to make some kind of connection.

Coreen

"Saunders: "Sometimes they remind me of another bunch from Chicago, the Blues Brothers: they seem to think they're on a mission from God."

That I could take, but Nancy Pelosi as the Virgin Mary waiting to deliver?

" Is your birthday one of the reasons your sister chose now for a visit?"

Actually she'd planned to visit earlier, but her 12 year old grandson got sick last year and had to miss some school, so she ended up spending the early part of the summer in Houston getting him caught back up. She spent years as a teacher, then as a reading tutor.

Renee, I'm sorry to hear about Rick's cousin's daughters dying. I wondered why you hadn't mention the rally.

Strange story on the Nashville news today. The commentator said that there is virtually no excitement in the state about the election, not when compared to the primary. Said that the evangelicals say they'll vote for McCain, but they aren't excited. And not much interest in Obama either.

No wonder i seldom see a bumper sticker or a yard sign. (except Ron Paul signs....)

Washington remains hobbled by Iraq
So far, reaction in the US to Russia’s invasion of Georgia has been all Vladimir Putin could have wished. Exhausted in every way by its experience in Iraq (a failure not much mitigated by recent progress there), its authority and sense of purpose quite depleted, the US looked slower and less decisive than Europe in its initial response, and that is saying something.

It took repeated prodding from presidential contender John McCain to draw President George W. Bush’s attention from the Beijing Olympics to the fact that Russian forces were overrunning the territory of a US ally.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/70667cb6-6c73-11dd-96dc-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

Is it possible that the "comfort level" among Democrats is not quite as secure as the media keeps wanting us to believe.

NYT today---For convention, Obama's Image is All-American

Through 4 nights there will be testimonials from faimly members, his wife, his sister who will tell his 'very American story', & from party stars like Ted Kennedy &
Bill Clinton--who will give Obama the imprimatur of the party establishment.

Also, add Paul Krugman's column re: the economy & Obama's inability to dominate that discussion when by all measures that should be a "gimme".

(Sorry can not figure out how to link 2 separate articles)

Patsi: happy birthday. Hope it's a wonderful one.

60 is the new 42 or so. And I like that you are not going with the 39+ spiel.

Obama vice presidential choice likely this week

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26263904/

Renee: very sorry to hear of the cousin's death. 23 is too damn young. Condolences.

Coreen, are you talking about this one from yesterday?
It’s the Economy Stupor
By PAUL KRUGMAN
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

Coreen's NYTimes Articles

All American Convvention

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/us/politics/18convention.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Slow Response on Georgia

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/washington/18diplo.html?hp

*Well it's true. It's f***ing genes. It's who we are as a people. We'll say 'f*** you' to Bush, Longshanks or Maggie Thatcher. F*** any of 'em.” *

Coreen

I love this quote from Mudcat Saunders, in the article you posted. It is so true. We take offense at the drop of a hat. If you don't like us( as in Obama's guns and religion quote ) Then F***you.

People in the Ozarks are hurting but walking around as a typical Northeast elitist looking down on poor whites is going to get you a big FU and the horse you rode in on.
Mudcat is right, Obama could connect with the rural working class whites with his similar experinces with the urban working class.
But I think he has even lost his connection to the working poor on Chicagos south side. If he ever really had any.

Jack

Jack

Coreen, thanks for that timesonlineuk link to Mudcat Saunders' take on the election - I may not be from this area, but I've spent the last 15 years in it, and he's exactly right about the attitude of the folks from around here. Obama better wake up and smell the moonshine. And could you ask him to get a little fish and bread to me before he comes down from the mount to try and get the rural vote if he bothers to? Of course Mudcat is right about the rural vote, but then again, Iowa's pretty rural (yeah, yeah, I know, I have the gift of understatement), and JE came in second to Obama there despite his Herculian efforts to win the state, so who really knows?

"I think he has even lost his connection to the working poor on Chicagos south side. If he ever really had any."

Jack,
Hubby and I were talking about that this morning. I'm under the impression he never really had any understanding of us. I really don't think he gets it. But he'd better learn quick if he want to be everyones president.

Happy B'Day Patsi!!

Yeah pogo, but Iowa was a caucus.

Renee -- My deepest sympathy for your family's recent loss.

Patsi -- I agree with you on the school funding issue. I don't agree with vouchers or private charter schools. Public education is a public good and if parents choose not to use it, then they should be responsible for the cost of their child's private education.

People ask me all the time if I would like some type of government reimbursement for our family's homeschooling expenses. That is definitely not something I want for two reasons: 1) It would take money away from public schools which are already struggling 2) When you take the queen's shilling, you do the queen's bidding. I really don't want the government telling me how to educate my children. Why try to replicate at home what isn't working in the school system?

Colleen -- When Mudcat talks like that I would listen very closely. He was responsible for Mark Warner's win in rural Virginia. Obama' s people must not have hired Mudcat -- maybe they think they can win the Old Dominion without SW and Central.

chloe - LOLOLOL. Most of them were.

Well, lunch a bit early today - tummy rumbling is deafening.

I watched the Rick Warren's question and answers forum Sat. night and was impressed with John McCain's quick, concise and confident answers -- until I reasoned that he watched (or had) the questions beforehand.
Rev. Warren made a point of saying that JMcC was in a "cone of silence" room and before questioning him -- even stated that in the form of a question, "how did it feel being in a cone of silence?" To which McCain answered he tried to hear thru the walls. Come to find out that he was in his limo driving to the church for at least half of Obama's time on stage. Question: Did the reverend deliberately lie or is he just very careless in relaying an imperfect message. And, finally, that McCain was a bit more smooth and polished with his answers is believeable to me -- if indeed, he had the script beforehand. Can the republicans ever be honest in anything?

AMEN Craig !!! LOL...

Theresa, We heard just one question and answer from John McCain in the car (didn't hear the rest). But that one question he answered sounded so scripted that we immediately said to each other: he had these questions ahead of time.

"And, finally, that McCain was a bit more smooth and polished with his answers"

One would expect McCain to be more at ease with his answers as he was in a friendly environment. Most things could be said without long explanations, when the question is loaded in your favor.

Jack

Alternative media is not tin-foil world. Have you ever ventured into tin-foil world? There are many serious investigators in the alternative media. Just because something is not covered by MSM doesn't mean that it is wrong or doesn't exist.

Posted by: GORDO | August 17, 2008 12:36 PM

Gordo, I worked in alternative media for a decade. http://www.kaosradio.org

What you are referring to as "alternative media" is not what I have known it to be. You can certainly learn more about alternative media at the FAIR website: http://www.fair.org/

They also have a great radio program called COUNTERSPIN.

Check it out.

EuroTom

While alternative media doesnot = tinfoil hat
About any of the alternative/liberal intertainment weeklies contain some tinfoil type of stuff. It draws in the readers, pays the bills.
A bit like cable news does anymore.

Jack

thanks for the condolences.....

enough sadness..... I want this day to be about life..... I will celebrate the fact that it's Patsi's BD..... here's a margarita to you, kid.....

it's ok.... it's after noontime here in the east.....

posting some stuff I put up on Backchannel.

Not at all saying McCain cheated, only that it's not impossible he did get advance notice on more than he acknowledges. His campaign went overdrive in smokescreen mode overnight; found that really curious.

Rick Warren acknowledges he gave both candidates advance notice of two questions: the ones on 3 most admired figures and on moral failings.

On CNN yesterday, he stated he met with Obama before the show and handed him a handwritten note with question about PEPFAR and adoptions, so as not to take candidates by surprise.

McCain would have gotten same info on PEPFAR question had he been present before the program. He arrived a half hour into it, and was not in the "cone of silence" Warren believed was in effect.

Here's brief and interesting CNN segment yesterday, Rick Sanchez interviewing Rick Warren.

Warren addresses the "cone of silence" at 0:55 and providing some questions in advance at 1:43; more on writing out the PEPFAR question and that he was initially under the impression McCain was present (somewhere....).

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/pastor-warren-contradicts-self-on-cone.html

Mike Allen of Politico provides text of McCain campaign manager Rick Davis letter to NBC. Several details Davis provides are not accurate.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12594.html

I did a long post on backchannel on the Davis letter (interspersed my comments with its text) at 10:38 and more at 10:51.

There is enough unstated to drive a Straight Talk Express bus through. And what is stated is not as transparent as it seems.

http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/faith-forum-assesment-as-only-chef-sheila-can/#comment-4605

(Backchannel post today is Sheila's post on candidates' outreach to faith community.)

==========

Thought this whole episode was a case of "blame the messenger" to help get one's preferred message out.

EuroTom-------------------------

I've listened to "counterspin".

Have you ever entered tin-foil world? If so, seems like you would know the difference - maybe not. I don't consider NoQuarter, TexasDarlin, Hillbuzz, American Thinker, etc to be part of tin-foil world. You do - that's your right.

Gordo

Your getting fiesty. Thanks for doing more than just cut and pasting.

Jack

Thom Hartman is ripping McCain a new one. One of the most damning from the standpoint of the "religious" issue is the story about the guard drawing a cross in the dirt. Apparently, five years ago he was attributing it to another prisoner and even worse that it is virtually identical to a story told by Solzhenitsyn's in Gulag Archipeligo.

I went hunting for the details on this one and found this on Daily KOS

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299

Can't confirm validity, but it would tie in with all the other "nobility" stories McCain tells when he wasn't being particularly noble.

"I don't consider NoQuarter, TexasDarlin, Hillbuzz, American Thinker, etc to be part of tin-foil world."

Then what are they in your world. I
n my world they are never a legitimate source of factual material.

Jack

Feisty's a good thing. Go Gordo

Here is the press release for the religious forum:

http://www.rickwarrennews.com/080721_forum.htm

Look at the description of the issues to be discussed and then compare them with the questions actually asked. The release indicated pressing general issues, but the specific questions were right wing religious drivel.

10:00 smoke break

OT: San Fran dog lover's blog

http://www.automatedredemption.com/flavorcountry/dogblog/

jamie - We did end up on the same page about God-forum-08. Surprise. Did you also get the sense that McCain was just spitting out what he knew he had to say to win 'em over? A little desperation and distaste for the whole thing?

BO still doesn't seem to have a geniune bone in his body. Religious preference, or preference for none, doesn't bother me. I do have a problem with someone professing to be something publicly when the hold different views privately. I can't know BO's heart, but either the "bitter" comment he made privately was him trying to fit into the group, or, he really feels that way & his church in Chicago was just a stepping stone to elected office.

One thing is for sure. I do not want the folks rocking back-and-forth and weeping out on the mall in DC to put the person they deem worthy of them into the WH.

You are a big believer in MSM? We can all trust MSM - sure.

Here's a question. Know about the missing 39 words from Hillary's April 22, 1994 "Pink" press conference? Do you know what Nightline did?

This is an angry Bill Clinton with Peter Jennings . The Nightline episode was not mentioned, but that was one of many things ABC (and others) had done to the Clintons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wJMO7cmhHo

"either the "bitter" comment he made privately was him trying to fit into the group, or, he really feels that way & his church in Chicago was just a stepping stone to elected office."

Blue,
The bitter thing in Chicago tells me something about him, but you're right, he could have been saying what he thought they wanted to hear. But the church in Chicago is what really bothers me. He started going there, I agree, for political reasons. But when you listen to that stuff for 20 years, I can't believe it doesn't rub off.

Not knowing what he really believes and not having much of a record for us to look at is his biggest downfall.

Blue,

I'm anti McCain if only for the Supreme Court justices he said he never would have appointed. Sen. Obama doesn't strike me as evil in any way, but just very hidden and in way too big a hurry no matter how many backs he steps on to get to the top.

It is his mentors I distrust most. On the plus side, I give him points for those daughters. You can't raise beautiful girls like his without an opinionated wife and a lot of love mixed with the discipline. I hope they keep him grounded and on track so that he hasn't sold too much of his soul to achieve his high flying ambitions.

"You are a big believer in MSM? We can all trust MSM - sure"

Gordo

It is not an issue of the quality of MSM but the fact that your sources are trash. So much so that they make the MSM look like paragons of virtue.

Jack

Chloe

What is it about his church that bothers you?

Jack

Any thoughts on the Musharaf resignation in Pakistan?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/asia/19pstan.html?hp

Jack, That they teach hate and racism. That he lied about never hearing any of the things we heard. That he feels now there's enough to throw Wright overboard, but he never considered it before.

"It is not an issue of the quality of MSM but the fact that your sources are trash"

Jack, the Enquirer is trash too. But they're right about some things once in a while.

Jamie

the was McCain given out questions before the event is mostly silly. The fact is every one of those question could have been anticipated. There was no new breaking of ground. Yes the questions were going to be right wing religious. McCain already has pat answers he has been giving for years. Just as any Demcrat has pat answers to questions from the Urban League.

Jack

I have to leave for an hour. I'll check back when I get back.

"That they teach hate and racism"

How so?

Jack

"the Enquirer is trash too. But they're right about some things once in a while."

But they are wrong more often than right that is why anything they claim is met with extreme skepticism.
And a higher level of proof is demanded.
The fact that they were able to get one piece of mud to stick, doesn't say anything about all the mud they will throw against the wall next year.

Jack

You have been conditioned - trained to think within certain boundaries - mind controlled.

Have you seen the 1988 John Carpenter movie "They Live"? Do you understand the hidden message about government and corporate media control of the population? Probably not. THEY have you just the way THEY want - under control! You actually believe what is being fed to you on a daily basis.

"You have been conditioned - trained to think within certain boundaries - mind controlled."

Gordo you have no idea what I think except that your scources are trash. please give a defense of your sources and lay off the adhominim.

Jack

Hit a nerve? Maybe THEY don't have you completely under control. You suspect something is not right, but can't put the pieces together in your mind. Work on it. Free your mind.

Jack,

I don't think McCain was given the questions ahead of time. As you say they were all pretty predictable considering the source. What I find objectionable is that the topics as listed in the press release were never discussed except possible the work that church is doing in Africa in relation to AIDS.

If there is going to be a relgious forum, then it could have been much more in depth and revealing itstead of so knee jerk, pro forma, and glib.

Still can't defend your sources Gordo?

The problem is a matter of predicability. You have built up a consistant record that makes it very easy to judge your posts. Therfore like the Inquirer mentioned above you have to be held to a higher standard. It is the way it works on the net.
Reputation is everything and your reputation is very low.

Jack

"Gordo you have no idea what I think except that your scources are trash. please give a defense of your sources and lay off the adhominim."
Jack

y'all kept harping at gordo to speak rather than cut/paste. sometimes the getting what you wanted isn't what you wanted after all.

I, like jamie, don't really suspect that McOld would even need to have the questions beforehand - I rather expect the questions were pretty fairly well tailored to elicit McCain's fairly simple, well known and predictable answers and put them in a favorable light compared to the equally predictably nuanced (there's that word again) and thoughty answers of Obama. No, Obama's not a great extemporaneous speaker, and is apparently less so when in a q/a format one on one with a questioner who isn't bathing in his aura - let''s face it, the best he did in the dem debates was a draw once or twice with Clinton, and they were pretty predictable after about the 15th one. What is amazing to me is that based on the comments of you guys, the VERY little of his answers I heard and the comments of the pundits doing their post mortems, Obama's staff did not adequately prepare him to answer the questions that they had to have been able to predict would be coming at him from the good reverend. There's your problem.

The Enquirer? What are Tom & Katie up to, and is it true that Jen and John called it quits? How's Bigfoot doing? New spottings at Rozwell? Good grief.

"Any thoughts on the Musharaf resignation in Pakistan?"
yeah jamie, first thing i tho't of was what an easy way to get rid of bush/cheney... just get serious about impeachment, seriously threaten it and poof they're out the door.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/thats-enough-church-talk.html#comment-129362

LOL. Mrs. P would cut my tongue out.

jamie,
re: Musharaff I think that no matter who the coalition government puts in place, we won't be going into Pakistan to look for Obama.

What you don't understand is that the Repubs have the info on SoetorObama - they are holding it until after the nomination. The PUMAs are trying to obtain the same documents. There is an effort to get documents from an Indonesian source. Problem is that the source is almost as anti-Hillary as anti-Obama. This source has been working with Repubs, so may not want to go against them (fear). Obama's past has been scrubbed - very difficult to find info that is not based on something he has said or written.

"...we won't be going into Pakistan to look for Obama."

pogo, last time i heard he was in chicago

"y'all kept harping at gordo to speak rather than cut/paste. sometimes the getting what you wanted isn't what you wanted after all."

Notice I've already expressed my delight that Gordo is not cutting and pasting. even his exchange with me is better than his cut and paste jobs. I'm interested if he can defend some of what he believes to be valuable sources.

Jack

Patd

Ya go to where the votes are.
The hills of North Carolina, the hills of pakistan,
Who can tell them apart those hillbillies are all the same , clinging to their guns and religion.

Jack

Duh - let's try Osama. (What an idiot).

Chloe,

Before you condemn black liberation theology out of hand you might want to consider the idea that many groups of immigrants formed groups and churches to educated, advance, and finally assimilate into American society.

For a variety of reasons this avenue of advancement was denied to the majority of AA. The church that has always been the center of black life is also the way to fight back agains racism and exclusion.

After reading individual pieces and essays, I finally got an excellent anthology of the writings of W. E. B. Du Bois and I'm currently rereading, "The Soul of Black Folks"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Souls_of_Black_Folk

Take the time to consider he central question, "What does it to feel like a problem?" and then consider what liberation theology might be trying to achieve. Certainly there are things that can make you uncomfortable, but I'm sure you could find that in just about any set of religious doctrines and sermons.

"That they teach hate and racism"
"How so?"

Jack,

Sorry I had to take off so quickly, but my daughter was standing here waiting for me.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, but I figure you haven't seen the videos maybe, and haven't read what I've read. I'll link a couple of them, but I can find many more if you want

If you want me to think these were exceptions to his normal preaching style, then maybe you could show me someplace to find something, anything, where Wright said he was sorry for the things he said and that he doesn't really believe the horrible accusations that he's made. Give me a link, and I'll see if I can change my mind.

But please don't ask me to not believe my own eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ&feature=related

Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for
9/11http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2FCJ7zWEQ&feature=related

" And I like that you are not going with the 39+ spiel."

Might be odd for a woman in her sixties to claim to be 39....

McCain is able to go after Obama in ways that Hillary could not in the Dem Primary. There are plenty of attack angles to move sufficient voters in enough swing states to win. Obama, who is light on experience and recognized achievements, should stay in front of smaller groups, tackling a full range of questions from friendly and hostile audiences, and constantly responding with specifics of how he as President would make their lives and circumstances and opportunities better. It's past time for touting credentials the electorate knows he doesn't have and convince voters he is real and can be trusted. America embraces the underdog and rejects a phony, which is how McCain is trying to brand Obama -- All Hat, No Cattle!

Hey G Man,

Have you come across any info from your "sources'" that helps explain the sudden success of the Jamaican sprinters? I was thinking maybe they were visited from the "Brother from Another Planet" or something.

btw, fyi, that's a a great Sayles movie.

"Chloe,
Before you condemn black liberation theology "

Jamie,
This is crazy. I haven't condemned anything.
If you will look at what I've said, I said I objected to teaching hate and racism and I objected to the lies that were told to hide the truth. That's not condemnation of black liberation. And I really hate having words put in my mouth.

"And a higher level of proof is demanded"

Sorry Jack, but I really haven't had a chance to catch up. By higher level of proof, are you talking about the kind of honest we get from our main stream media? Where do you want me to go for my truth. Ask Obama? Ask Wright? or some other politician, since I know they was give me a "higher level of truth", right

I wasn't defending the Enquirer. I was simply using them as an example of being right sometimes. Don't complicate my statements to mean any more than they say. I'm a lot of things Jack, but I'm not naive.

It doesn't matter if Gordo is right or wrong. Any more than it matters if you are right or wrong. He has every right to say whatever he wants to say in any manner he chooses to say it. It's ridiculous for others to be so bothered by it.

Much of what I post is about what the Repubs would do to Obama with info they are said to be holding. We will find out, if Obama is nominated. Will the stories about audios, videos, damaging documents, etc. be proven true? I don't know - sure hope so! Many PUMAs are not going to forgive or forget the Dem backstabbing of the Clintons.

Chloe

Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. You said teaching hate and racism, and I'm saying that some isolated sermons by one pastor is not necessarily a good example of the goals or attitudes.

I did go check and as it happens, "The Souls of Black Folks" is available through Project Gutenberg and can be downloaded for free

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/408

"Maybe a poor choice of words on my part. You said teaching hate and racism, and I'm saying that some isolated sermons by one pastor is not necessarily a good example of the goals or attitudes."

Jamie,
Do we agree that those isolated sermons were teaching hate and racism?

chloe,
I think I can say with a fair degree of confidence that Jack would not direct you to Obama, Wright or some other politician for "a higher level of truth."

I have to chuckle at the Enquirer reference - yeah they do get it right occasionally - John Edwards can attest if we need a witness. But as the old saying goes, even a broken watch gives the correct time twice a day (the rest of the time it's wrong).

I agree Pogo. But what does that have with what I'm talking about.

Try to understand, I have no problem with black liberation theology. None. I speaking solely of 'isolated sermons' and how their impact was handled by both Wright and Obama (as in lies and denials).

The national polls are misleading in that California and New York give a false picture in the head to head national comparison.

The RCP Battleground box on their main page sows the eroding Obama electoral position. On the averages a box which was almost all Obama has now turned into almost all McCain with small leads.

Wake Democrats! We can't depend on McCain imploding to attain victory.

Chloe,

Of the ones I've heard which were only a few sentences out of a lengthy sermon, there were things that made me uncomfortable but without reading or hearing the whole thing in order to know what led to those sentences, I couldn't say they were teaching hate and racism.

chloe, not a lot. I'm just free associating.

Well, that's where we differ Jamie. I did hear plenty to think that he was teaching hate and racism.

Now would you like to take your young grandchildren there every Sunday. And maybe take the chance that some of the things that we've seen on video were said that day. You know how impressionable children are (and adults) , if you expose them long enough.

You are right about one thing. I don't know what went on on all those other Sundays. But maybe you can find something somewhere that show that Wright said he was sorry for those sermons and that he doesn't agree with the things he said (about 9/11 and Goddamn America, for starters). Change my mind about him, not Black theology. I respect Black theology, knowing what little I know about it.

Thanks Pogo. I'm just wound up a little. I always appreciate your thoughts.