Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

New thread! Kidding!

But he hurts the enthusiasm of people from the criminal justice community as well as those concerned with economic justic.

he never even bothered to vet Hillary Clinton

Why bother vetting someone who still calls you her opponent?

On a different note, Craig, 4 posts in one day? Does the IOC need to test your for doping? lol

Senator Joe Biden (D-DE) forced the controversial legislation commonly known as the "RAVE" Act through both houses of Congress as an attachment to an unrelated child abduction bill. The "RAVE" Act, also referred to as the Illicit Drug Anti-Proliferation Act of 2003, was introduced as an addition to the Child Abduction Protect Act of 2003, widely recognized as the AMBER Alert bill (S151). The "RAVE" Act had not passed a single committee before being attached to the AMBER Alert bill. In addition, it was so controversial when it was introduced during the 107th Congress that two Senators withdrew their sponsorship.

The "RAVE" Act makes it easier for the federal government to prosecute innocent business owners for the drug offenses of their customers - even if they take steps to stop such activity
http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/raveact/

Let's Make a Deal with Sen. Joe Biden

Sen. Joe Biden (D) is continuing his self-serving, arrogant and conceited attack on DNC Chairman Howard Dean, this time telling Don Imus that "The Democratic chairman does not speak for me, an elected United States senator. No party official speaks for me anytime, anyplace, under any circumstances. And I think the rhetoric is counter-productive."

All good Democrats and progressives should make a deal with Biden: he can continue stabbing his own party in the back with impunity for his own self-promotion, and say his party doesn't speak for him. In exchange, Biden should agree to never, ever claim to speak for Democrats. Remember, this is a Senator who (among other things) led the fight to pass the bankruptcy bill, voted against limiting the interest credit card companies can gouge consumers with, voted against limiting predatory lending, voted against protecting consumers when their identity is stolen, voted for the Iraq War and voted to confirm Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. This says nothing about him perpetually floating his name for President, even though the last time he ran, he got caught pathetically trying to plagiarize people's speeches.
http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/06/lets-make-deal-with-sen-joe-biden.html

Bump and Update: CNN confirms at 12:43 am ET that it is Joe Biden. So the world didn't find out by text message after all. The mainstream media learned it from highly placed sources. Nothing new here.
http://www.talkleft.com/

Biden's "forgotten" past.
=================

"Then in September 1987, the campaign ran into serious trouble when he was accused of plagiarizing a speech by Neil Kinnock, then-leader of the British Labour Party.[24] Though Biden had correctly credited the original author in all speeches but one, the one where he failed to make mention of the originator was caught on video.[25] Within days, it was also discovered that, while at Syracuse Law School, Biden had plagiarized a law review article in a class paper he wrote. Biden said the act was inadvertent due to his not knowing the proper rules of citation, and Biden was permitted to retake the course after receiving a grade of F in the course."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden

KGC,

What Sirota doesn't mention about the Biden/Kinnock plagiarism thing is the fact that he had used his quote more than 10 times previously in a speech. It was just the publicized occasion he forgot to directly attribute it to Kinnock and the Dukakis campaign pounced.

If only Dukakis was as hard on GHW Bush...

KGC
on whistling past dixie

If this was a normal year I would say this ticket wouldn't have a chance. A northern big city liberal and a Northeastern Democrat from one of those states so small that they put their name out in the middle of the ocean.
The basic dynamic of the Northern midwest is between the Urban interest (democrat)and the Rural interests Republican, so that the states seesaw back and forth. I don't see the Democrats breaking this dynamic and the Republicans doing their best to exploit it.
The only thing that will make a change is that Bush has so screwed up everything that the Republican brand is toxic.

Good for this year but if the Dems win this and start squabling amoung themselve like carter years or pre 94 clinton years then those states can easyly swing back.

Jack

night all

Jack

A quick analysis of the Intrade data suggests the market started its final consolidation around Biden about 6:30 pm EDT and confirmed the market's decision in the 8:10am - 8:30pm EDT time period.

It would be interesting to review the news cycle starting around 6:15 pm EDT to see what exactly triggered the consolidation...

Jack,

some will argue that it took Dick Morris triangulation and an abandonment of core democratic values that led to the post 94 clinton years we all remember fondly...

Bear
Unfprtunately for Biden the Kinnock speech is not the only time he has plagiarized. He is a serial plagiarist
Sen. Biden's bad acts in lifting some moderately well-crafted phrases from Kinnock's campaign speeches into his own, or in lifting five pages from a law review article into his own law school class submission, or his exaggeration of his academic record weren't going to actually win him any elections, or confer any substantial advantage upon him as a politician. He also lifted material from the speeches of Robt Kennedy without attribution.

SoetorObama ALERT !!!
===================

In a few minutes, Philip Berg will discuss his lawsuit against SoetorObama on the "Coast to Coast" radio show. Tune in and learn about his "hidden" past.

G Man ,

The lawsuit was tossed. If it bears fruit, Biden could be Fortry- fourth.

44th. sorry

Wrong! Are you listening? If not, I'll explain it to you later.

what a night, i'll be doing a phoner for msnbc in the 2am hour, mebbe in about 15 minutes or so

Dallas Billionaire, McCain bundler, is anti-Obama group's backer.

"The spokesman for the American Issues Project, the independent group whose ad is the most negative of the cycle and links Obama to terrorism, says the group just filed a report naming its SOLE DONOR"

Simmons was reportedly a major donor to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004.

McCain's hands are all over the smearing. What an asshole old creep he is.

That's why they pay you the big bucks Craig . lol

This is great, like listening to radio watching TV with all the phone-ins. :)

I bet all you guys are in your pajamas on the phone .. lol

well i'm still packing for denver flight tomorrow, so not quite in the pj's yet

I hope they have a good photo of you to put up .

Remember CNN made the really unfortunate error of reporting Congresswomen Tubbs Jones death prematurely on the word of a "Democratic official."

I really think this has all been an elaborate ruse. The Obama campaign has proved to be very good at deceiving the press (remember the press being trapped in an airplane while Obama and Hillary met in private.)

Moreover, why on earth would the incredibly disciplined Obama campaign hype up the text message so much only to have "Democratic officials" leak their top secret choice to multiple sources only hours before the message was supposed to go out to supporters?

If the unnamed "Democratic officials" really do know what they are talking about, the Obama campaign may be under some criticism for building this thing up so much only to have a leak before the campaign's official message.

If the vp choice is Hillary, the ability of the Obama campaign and the Clintons to keep this selection under wraps with no leaks, bodes very well for their ability to trust each other and work together.

I may be completely off-base, but Craig may be showing way to much faith in his fellow journalists to give credence to the Biden story.

It's all about attracting the demographics you need

Com'on Katie. It's done deal. Get with the program and forget about Hillary

I have felt it would be Biden for a long time, as I posted frequently in the early hours of the past couple days, so Biden it is. What a contrast to Cheney he will be!
I would call Obama/Biden openly hostile towards Iran, and Biden has this 3-way division plan for Iraq as w all know, so this will be interesting.
I caught Ahmadinejad on with Charlie Rose, Rose baited him but Ahmadinejad held his ground in stating he wants world-wide total nuclear disarmament, and to use nuclear power only to power the countries.
Remember, Obama is really mistrustful of Iran's leadership, and Biden wants to shake the hell out of Iraq, so this will be worth watching.
We all know Lieberman (McInsane's poodle) has screamed into our living rooms how Iran should already have been bombed, and I feel a McCain/Lieberman win would ensure a January 21 bombing of Iran.
Do you believe Ahmadinejad only wants to light up Iran's electric plants and not make bombs? I wonder who can prove Iran really wants to make bombs , or who will create an atmosphere of Iran-hatred, spiced with lies that we need to bomb Iran.
McCain and his buddy Lieberman are on the record...this is one reason why we must forget 21-year old plagiarism and aneurysm old-news stories and elect President Barack Obama/Vice President Joe Biden.

Ian Punnett doesn't know enough about this to even ask sensible questions. Should have done some background research before the show. The technical analysis of the fake COLBs has to be seen - I've been posting links. This is a complicated story. No documents - his past has been scrubbed.

Has the text arrived? The longer we wait, the more sense Katie makes.

well i'm in the phone queue now, might be next, this really is like radio

Rezdog,

I'm with the program. I will support Obama no matter who he chooses and I do think Biden is the best choice, except possibly for Hillary. I just find it odd that the information flow has been managed so carefully until several hours before the much ballyhood text message. I'm also suspicious that the leaks are coming from unnamed "Democratic officials." That said I could be totally wrong and I'm not sure Hillary Clinton ever wanted the vp job anyway.

Mayby it's just impossible to keep the choice secret until tomorrow morning because of the secret service activities etc.,

Well, all the circa-2003 crazy hawk-talk by Obama was scrubbed right off the internet 18 months ago, in a China-like censoring of public documents. i guess that is a good thing, because those speeches and comments made Obama sound like he was hell-bent for annihilation of all of Iran.
Of course I can't document this post...there is no online documentation available..anymore.

They went with the old white guy after all. So much for Change"...This is a reprise of Kennedy choosing Johnson, complete with the big rally acceptance speech outside the convention hall...

wow it's hard to pack and hold the phone at the same time

My family's sleeping and I cannot turn on TV now...please someone post what Craig had to say on TV...

Katie,
Sorry if I sounded sarcastic about it, but Biden had acknowledged the selection.
i do agree that it's a mistake not to be right with the text messaging. Some will be miffed and not supportive.

Craig...didn't I hear you say your hotel is way out from The Pepsi Center? You gonna ride the fantastic Denver Light Rail into the center-city?

Also still curious as to how this is going to fill in the over 45 female gap. Looking back at poll internals suggest Biden does better with men than women. I'm also not seeing much of a cross-over from Liberal Republicans...Not sure what Biden really brings to the ticket other than foreign policy experience. I don't see much of a bump coming out of this. Probably won't hurt the campaign, but I don't think it's bringing anything new either...

i'll be riding the CQ shuttle bus to the festivities each day, Dexter, i think my hotel might be in Utah, looking at the map

well Spike...it definitely ain't going outside the Beltway...who is more connected in DC than Biden?

Here's the WaPo front (online) page...check out the great writer Davis Maraniss...he's got a story linked there about Hawaii/Obama....

Rezdog,

Sorry, if I sounded argumentative. I didn't take offense at your first post. I have been going back and forth on this all day.

Should be an exciting day tomorrow and an exciting convention either way.

I'll check back tomorrow.

Good night.

I understand Utah is nice this time of year...

this is sort of like airlines, every 5 min. they tell me we take off in the next 5 min.

hey it's the 21st century...I bet CQ has the shuttle WiFi'd for you folks! I hope the 5,280 ft. altitude won't flare-up your bum eardrum.

The "NEW" COLB has also been shot down! Factcheck.org is an Annenberg operation. Know what that means? I'll post links later to the analysis. Ian Punnett is clueless. He doesn't understand anything. SoetorObama will not show the documents. Just show the documents - if he has them. Let's see them. Why are we debating images on the net? Where are the certified hardcopies?

uh-oh...last time I flew to the coast from Port Columbus the flight was delayed SIX HOURS!

sorry...forgot to include the WaPo link...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=globaltop

This new face of CQ isn't working too well - all I get is the weeks posts from Craig, unless I click on comments. It never used to be like that for me.

Also, I just lost a post but don't know how

Basically what I said and then lost what that I'm a little angered by this junior high presentation of who is it?
False tension and weak letting the info out - it's not very impressive. When you look back over the last week and the "awe" about the tight secrecy, and then the official notification held off in order to announce it officially by text message - it looks silly to me.

I can handle Biden as vp - enjoy looking at him - but just think it has been childish.

Biden is very competent. Perhaps he will highlight the cipher that we know is Mr.Obama.

okay, i'm done. good night all, will be talkin to you next from Denver

Craig, got to disagree with you on a couple points...Biden showing up to a 4 mile long July 4th parade wearing an oxford shirt and brown Italian loafers didn't endear him to many Iowegians. People were openly making comments about it. He certainly wasn't seen as someone you'd want to drink a beer with.

It also didn't help that the local press made a big deal out of him paying one of the nice restuarants to open on Thanksgiving for a candle-lit, four course Biden family dinner...

Also, a lot of Iowan's first choice was Richardson, not Biden. Both Biden and Richardson's people were brought into Obama's caucus group by Obama's superior organization INSIDE the caucuses...In fact, Biden would have done better here if they hadn't insisted on not joining the Richardson group...

Nice save on the PUMA explanation (:>)...

The press in fawning over Biden instead of looking into what he really brings to the ticket aside from FP experience.

Craig,

Think you were closer in your January 4th column:

"Watching C-SPAN’s mesmerizing live broadcast of an Iowa precinct caucus on Thursday night, it was truly sad to see shell-shocked Biden and Dodd supporters get hustled by the big-brand candidate teams urging them to switch sides once it was clear that their ranks were not large enough to even be counted."

way past my bedtime. See y'all down the trail -- spike

Biden. MEH.

KGC -- Good point about Biden's role in the Bankruptcy bill and the votes on credit card limits. Delaware is the HQ for many banks and credit card companies. He was carrying *their* corporate water, whilst selling the little guy consumers down the river. Not exactly good lunch-bucket politics.

Of course McCain's voting record is much, much worse on Bankruptcy -- something that the O-Team could have used to push the out-of-touch-rich-guy narrative on McCain. It would matter to many people who are nervously teetering on the economic ledge these days -- a lot of those are in VA, given the foreclosure rate exceeds the national average. Maybe not now with Biden as VP.

Here is a good comparison of Obama's and McCain's votes on the bankruptcy bill.
http://www.bankruptcylawnetwork.com/2008/07/06/obama-and-mccains-votes-on-bankruptcy-amendments/

More from SoetorObama's "hidden" past.
=============================
Obama Tries to Quash Ayers Ad

"... the Republican 527 ad now hitting the airwaves showing only part of Barack Obama’s relationship with unrepentant American terrorist, Bill Ayers, has the Obama campaign worried. First, here is the ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Oytd6DaWk

Second, the Obama campaign has sent ... letter begging stations not to run this ad.

Obama’s folks are in a snit that their Golden Child is being associated with terrorism. Well, too damn bad. It is true. Barack was in bed with Bill Ayers for at least 13 years.

Up to this point Barack’s team has avoided scrutiny on this issue because the media is too damn lazy to do simple investigation. Barack has tried to pretend that Ayers was just some guy from the neighborhood. Bollocks!! Ayers hired Barack to run a multi-million dollar foundation for him.

This ain’t swift boating. This ad is true and Barack has to offer a credible explanation of why he climbed into bed with Ayers."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/23/obama-tries-to-quash-ayers-ad/

I think it's great Obama and Biden share so much . . . like charges of plagiarism, for instance.

BTW, here's what Joe had to say in 1988 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5kVRTU-iyk&eurl=http://blogs4mccain.com/2008/08/22/1988-biden-ad-the-white-house-isnt-the-place-to-learn-how-to-deal-with-international-crisis

Well congratulations to Joe Biden....

I hope the ticket wins.

Tom

I can not get over that Hillary was not even veted. Carville was on CNN yesterday and said she was treated very disrespectfully.by Obama. She was not even given a call about the choice. She has been out there working hard but apparently has had little contact with Obama.If I am seething about this I know Bill is also. I wonder how this will translate in his speach Wednesday night at the convention. I don't envy him.

Hillary gets stiffed
He didn't just diss Hillary.
He dissed 18 million voters.

Obama's Course Is Proving Hard To Map
Even Democratic Taxonomists Find It Difficult To Classify Obama Among The Party's Many Types -- From Traditional Liberals To Neoliberals, New Democrats, Blue Dogs And Net-Roots Activists.''
http://www.nationaljournal.com/conventions/co_20080820_3003.php

Barack Obama heads for victory rally - but the race is far from over
"Never mind that this should be a Democratic year with fully four-fifths of American voters saying the country is "on the wrong track", Mr Obama is running a long way behind his party. Polls show that a "generic Democrat" would have double-digit margin over a "generic Republican" but Mr Obama's summer lead over John McCain into a statistically insignificant 1.4 per cent"....

"It is not the image the Democrats need just now. Nor should they forget the last time the party held a convention in Denver, exactly 100 years ago when Williams Jennings Bryan - another politician known for his oratory - was chosen to run against the unpopular incumbent Republicans. He lost."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4592906.ece

(a) Change? What happened to the pundits' opinions that Obama would not want someone to step on His message of Change -- the most frequently used rationale against Hillary.
(b) Surprise? Pop? More like a Dud. I will be surprised if this first, important Obama decision moves the electoral needle in his favor in any of the Red states he needs to convert to Blue. Ohio? Florida? Colorado? Virginia? Missouri? The West? The South? The Mid-West? I don't think so! In fact, the opposite could happen, quickly.
(c) At some point, the Clintons are going to start distancing themselves from a disaster-in-the-making. They would not be alone within the Party super-delegates. They could offer to give the Convention speaking slots back. They could refrain from speaking ill of McCain, even take his phone calls and hold personal, friendly conversations with him. Let it be known that contrary to rumors, Hillary and McCain have NOT discussed the possibility of being his VP.

McCain to air Biden TV ad
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0808/McCain_to_air_Biden_TV_ad.html

That Hillary Convention Roll Call -- if it still happens-- just got more interesting!

John H -- The Clintons aren't going to distance themselves from the Democratic party. They are Democrats. But what they also won't do is lick Obama's shoes, like he and his cult demand.

They aren't going to genuflect before anyone, and that includes the new Joshua.

If Obama wins, I'm more comfotable if Biden is at his side. Biden may talk too much, but at least he says something.

Analysis: Biden pick shows lack of confidence

By RON FOURNIER – 2 hours ago

DENVER (AP) — The candidate of change went with the status quo.

In picking Sen. Joe Biden to be his running mate, Barack Obama sought to shore up his weakness — inexperience in office and on foreign policy — rather than underscore his strength as a new-generation candidate defying political conventions.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jpNkxhHYmi98B3GBk8AZqtJeWohgD92NT5P8

kind of like the text message about dropping out of public financing

Whew, now I can officially hope that Obama loses and do what I can to help. That would have been difficult if he had Hillary running as the VP. I really don't think he has a chance now.

I am a hard core Democrat but my intuition screams against Obama. When my intuition screams it is never wrong. It has done a lot of screaming since 2000.

I do like Biden but don't think he can do anything to help Obama. From what I have seen and heard recently, and that is limited since I quit most of the MSM a while back, I think others also think that choosing Hillary was Obamas only chance.

Carol

billy sturgeone has come unstuck in time........

Patsi;
Perhaps they won't distance themselves from the Party, but it seems to me, that by participating in a disaster, they become part of it and deserve part of the blame. Which is worse: Saying to Barack, "It's Yours Now, Good Luck!"? or Giving Your All and Having it said, "See, they couln't have won either"? I just don't see the upside for them. If they help full-throatedly and he wins, they get cast aside while getting little credit. If they help tepidly and He loses, some on His side will try to blame them rather than take responsibility.

Maybe they can add injury to insult by delivering Arkansas as the only Red State to go Blue for Obama, which neither Gore or Kerry could do. That would serve their own self interest for 2012.

ABC News: 'Dream Ticket' No More: No Obama-Clinton

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5496102&page=1

Interesting read... ABC does point out that a very small minority of Clinton supporters still plan to not vote for Obama, implying that the "PUMA" brigade are an insignificant factor in the upcoming election. I don't know if it's true but if the election is extremely close, PUMAs could certainly be spoilers I suspect.

For all those with a BHO sweet tooth...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BARACKOLATE-CHIP-COOKIES/34688475630

Youse guys get inter da line, now, and support dis here cannadate.........or else.......ya know whadda mean?

This is just one of Joe's famous remarks. Biden? Biden? LOL

"I've had a great relationship [with Indian Americans]," Biden said. "In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking."

"As an American of Indian descent, I am very disappointed with this pick. If anything it reinforces the feeling that the Obama/ Biden ticket is an anti-Indian ticket.
Biden on Indians.... "You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking" (The guy doesn't even realize that he just said something racist)

Then Obama's campaign calling Senator Clinton the Senator from Punjab

Granted our demographic is probably not a huge swing block however it does send negative vibes to our community.
BTW, for all his talk of change..why embrace a nominee that has 30 years of Washington experience?
I cannot in good conscience vote Democrat this time."

Linda
way too much sugar for me.
Any more I make oatmeal cookies and at least double the oats called for.

Jack

John King CNN

"insiders on the Obama campaign call the candidate
ObaME because his ego is so big."

John H -- It doesn't matter what the Clintons do. According to the Cult, it will be their fault if O loses and "in spite of them" if he wins. It's the theme of the campaign.

Jack

So you can't eat the cookies...read the all the instructions, for the recipe...she has a message!!

Christine Lavin is hilarious!!

"Also by all accounts the plagiarism is the worst thing you can say about Biden and Obama can easily point to Biden and say this is a man who represents what is good in Washington."

Good in Washington? The Bankruptcy bill? The most regressive drug legislation since Nelson Rockefeller? Being a plagiarist is the best thing you can say about Biden.

I like Joe Biden. He's my kind of guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwnwbG9YLE

Random and his fellow socks do point to one short coming for Biden. He has a long record in the Senate, he has a voting record that anyone can find a vote that the can take offense with.

That is the problem with senators.

Jack

LOL@ foghorn clip

Jack

craig, who are those "lunch-bucked" democrats you mentioned?

"Even Democratic Taxonomists Find It Difficult To Classify Obama Among The Party's Many Types -- From Traditional Liberals To Neoliberals, New Democrats, Blue Dogs And Net-Roots Activists.''
chloe, they didn't list the newly minted democratic group called 'trolls" (typically ranting old lady liberals).

Well, Biden as the choice has got Obama at least one more vote. One Rebublican I know told me she'd vote for Obama if he chose Biden....so there you go.

well......vice president "joe" would be an immense improvement over vice president "dick".

a sock puppet would be an immense improvement

"I asked a friend who knows someone who has seen the video to Michelle Obama making disparaging remarks about “white” folks. You know, those angry God hugging, gun toting mouth breathers. He wrote me the following:

But there is a very strange air about Republican operatives. In the last three weeks, I’ve talked to real insiders in VA, GA, AL and here. They all remind me of a unit waiting to cross the line of departure on an attack. Quiet, determined, last cigarette, last “can of peaches out of the ration,” radio checks, confident. They all use the term “safely nominated” when referring to Obama. That is weird.

They can’t wait to start taking Barack apart on the issues the media chose to ignore up to this point. And when the attacks intensify Joe Biden’s foreign policy expertise won’t matter one whit."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/23/obama-tries-to-quash-ayers-ad/

Sturge

the stuff on the bottom of my shoe is an improvement over "dick".

That is not a ringing statement of support there.

BTW I like Joe, always have.

Jack

yep......Im fine with Joe......
I just wanted to write vice president "dick"

lol

My point precisely, Patsi! They are going to get blamed if he loses and no credit if he wins. So, if it were me, I would opt to be clear that it's his to win or lose. If He doesn't ask -- maybe even beg -- me to do something, I won't. It will be clear that He didn't ask or that I did what He asked, as long as it was reasonable.

It's his expand-the-electoral-map strategy that Party Liberals bought into, a strategy that is now looking like a Fairy-tale. It's his constituencies that includes Party Liberals and the Fifth Estate who thought they represented a majority of the electorate. He chose Biden in his first major policy decision. His ego vetted VP contenders without considering Hillary's input and potential contributions. But who vetted Him?

While you're right there will always be some to blame the Clintons if the One loses, the Winning Majority of the electorate will see the truth and realitiesWhy d it to the Dems when they seem to do it to themselves.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131670

Chloe
I completely agree with your comment! Hillary wasn't even considered or vetted,a big slam to her and her voter's imo.Joe Biden is a good choice for Obama,I like Joe.

I'd like to know about vp pick.....

what did hillary know.....and when did she know it.

I'm sure she will say, at some point.

More from SoetorObama's "hidden" past.
=============================
Obama-Ayers Annenberg papers to be released

"AP is reporting the University of Illinois Chicago has relented and the CAC records in its possession will be released and made available to the public Tuesday.

In reporting this, AP briefly acknowledges the Ayres/Obama connection."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/obamaayers_annenberg_papers_to.html

Gordo
The University did not relent the merely got permission from the owner of the papers. Nothing there silly boy.

Jack

Dex "uh-oh...last time I flew to the coast from Port Columbus the flight was delayed SIX HOURS!"

The Ohlfahrt family spent a couple of really nice years at Lockbourne in the early 70s. It's where Stinky learned how to ride a two-wheeler. She practiced and practiced and polished the bike at least twice a day. And, the kids were there helping, too. One on each side of her hoping that when she fell it would be on top of the other sister.

Really solid people in the Columbus area; we were privileged to have been there.

Sturge

I believe the Big Dawg has promised to talk about it after the election.

Jack

Talk about empathy: It seems that Obama and Biden were about the same age in their first presidential bids.

Tony

We keep hoping for better from the Obama campaign. They are what they are.
It looks like the Democrat party is determined to remove the only successful demcratic president in the last 25 years from the Democratic history book.
Running away from Clinton has cost us 2 elections so far.

Jack

Jack

This morning, knowing that Biden was chosen by BHO, I thought that maybe I could vote for BHO.

Now, the longer I listen to the CNN coverage, I think not. Blitzer and King were discussing that BHO was looking for someone who could help him become a better president. I, for one, do not want endure another term, with a president who is not quite ready for the job.

Maybe BHO and JRB can switch positions!! That would be a nice ticket!!

BTW, what's up with Biden's middle name?...Robinette...yikes!!

tony and others

maybe Bill would not release his information and Obama team decided not to vet someone they could not go with for that reason alone? they did not have months to negotiate or time to waste

Jack, I really don't know how to refer to Democrats who aren't part of the Democratic Party. People like me who have declared their independence.

Or maybe I have that backwards. What should we call the cabal that refers to itself as the Democratic Party?

people who got it right?

More from SoetorObama's "hidden" past.
=============================
Behind the Annenberg Gate: Inside the Chicago Annenberg Challenge Records

"The records are held by the University's Richard Daley Library. Sadly, Daley's son, the current Chicago mayor refuses to endorse a call to open the records. Instead, he again today attempted to mislead people into thinking that Ayers and Obama are just "friends" when, in fact, as we will show here, they have been long time political allies.

Below is an analysis of what I found in the documents I was able to obtain.

the leading role that Bill Ayers played in the Annenberg Challenge;

the equally important role played by Barack Obama; and

the intensely political nature of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge."

http://globallabor.blogspot.com/2008/08/behind-annenberg-gate-inside-chicago.html

Whew, now I can officially hope that Obama loses and do what I can to help. That would have been difficult if he had Hillary running as the VP. I really don't think he has a chance now. -- Carol

Carol, my thoughts exactly. They said on CNN last night that BO didn't do enough to let HRC's supporters know that he was NOT considering her. Why would you consider the person with as much support as you so you could really nail this thing? As usual he just dismisses us and feels he doesn't need us. Let's just see how that works for him in November.

CNN said Obama didn't even seek counsel from Hillary throught this whole process.. Showed her no respect what so ever. Nor did he give her a phone call ahead of his decision or announcement that he had selected Biden. 'No Respect' for her or her voters. The new and improved Democratic Party.

Well I started with Biden because of the "divide Iraq in three parts", so he's fine with me for VP, at least it gives some weight to the lighter than air candidate at the top of the ticket.

If it turns out Hillary wasn't either vetted or consulted, It also means I get to take it easy. No need to waste time or money on the ticket. Just sit back and watch the parade.

carol and catbalu

you're hoping Obama loses.

not like you have any military family in harms way or know any people who need a brighter future or better shake than they got from 8 years of Bush Cheney.

smarter people than you two were saying there was not that much difference between Hillary and Obama platforms.

and now you hope Obama loses,

you are patriots. and classy and gracious too

jamie you're a patriot too

sit back and watch

with the rest of the couch set

the really bad part about all this is that this blog will not know peace for some time to come........

sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.....as old as time.

"No need to waste time or money on the ticket. Just sit back and watch the parade."

Yep.

Trip,
We are patriots -- thanks for noticing. We want the best for our country and BO ain't it. There is still time for the Dems, my party since forever BTW, to come to their senses and choose the best. Somehow I don't think that's gonna happen.

I do have family in harm's way, if you must know, and I do know people who could use a brighter future, myself included -- you are disillusional if you think BO will in any way help these two situations.

"not like you have any military family in harms way"

Military people are there to do whatever they are asked to do by our elected leaders. I have no confidence that the proposed ticket has any special understanding of how, when, where, and why we should employ our forces.

If they want to imbue some confidence in military people, they must absolutely embrace the Powell Doctrine. That should be comforting to military families as well as it would indicate that they wouldn't waste their family members' lives.

We can have a military where our soldiers never die--a military like that of most non-US NATO countries. Soldiers that parade smartly and stand guard at the halls of government.

Parallel topic. The Poles had the smartest horse cavalry in the world in the days leading up to World War II. That cavalry was so good that they tossed it into battle against invading Nazi panzers. So much for horse cavalry. And so much for not being proactive in demonstrating their unilateral willingness to do what they think is best for their own defense.

It's all about Ohio.

the troops overseas are giving Obama more money than McCain by a 6 to 1 margin, and Obama maybe 10 times as many contributions as Hillary.

that says something.

"the troops overseas are giving Obama more money than McCain by a 6 to 1 margin, and Obama maybe 10 times as many contributions as Hillary.

that says something."

Yes, it says the statement you made can't be supported by available FEC data that only reflects contributions of $200 and above. Be complete and truthful in your statements. Give numbers of actual donors and actual dollar amounts.

Please replace 'truthful' with 'factual' in my last. Bad word choice on my part.

Sigh. More foolish dems who take their slavish devotion to Hillary so far that they are risking throwing away everything that Hillary would have brought to the table as president (given hers and BHO's almost identical platforms). I sincerely doubt Hillary wanted the job, or even wanted to be vetted (nor did she need to, we all know all we need to about her), but the lack of vetting does make it easy for her to subtly undercut Obama. And they call him arrogant and Machiavellian.

No matter, most of you are probably republican posers stirring up crap anyway.

If you are honestly who you say you are, what about Obama, who shares almost every political stance with Hillary, makes anyone who supports him delusional that he has a snowball's chance in hell at being as strong a president as she? Based on the utter lack of logical reasoning from your side, I gotta conclude that you all are the delusional ones. Good thing there are a lot fewer of you than you pretend.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131711

Jack
Well said and I agree. I want my old party back..I like Flatus have declared my independence.I still believe in what the Democrats say they are for,but in reality any party that would turn there backs on the only 2 term successful Dem. President since FDR,well I want no part of them....

Nick -- Your post is BS. Just because there are those who dislike this particular candidate, you nsay they are "delusional"?

And as far as exact positions, I give you the FISA vote.

I personally believe Obama and McCain would both be terrible presidents.

So, Patsi, what to do?"

Obama's inner circle -- WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/07/14/GR2008071400059.html?sid=ST2008071400153

I don't have a great feeling about Obama's choice as far as the general population might perceive it. Biden feels like he has too much of a past for a guy who's running on Change.

Craig, hooray, you're in the thick of it now! Have a good time but BE CAREFUL. No falling off a mountain.

tt

Golly, Alicia, the series of unbroken blue circles in the inner core is scary.

mountain falling by a genuine Hag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TSldUUCcSA

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/1-1-1-bidenobama-exurban-league.jpg?w=534&h=364

I wasn't the first one to throw around words like "delusional," in case you weren't paying attention. If you truly think it's BS to use such words then I thank you for undercutting yourself.

And you still have shown exactly zero logical reasoning as to why McCain is preferable to Obama, vis a vis Hillary. Oh no, he disagreed on one or two minor points! I guess someone who is diametrically opposite of everything Hillary stands for (McCain) must be preferable, then!

But then a republican trying to troll political sites and create the illusion of a widespread rebellion within the democratic party wouldn't want to use reason.

flatus

you are nibbling at the edges

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/08/troops-deployed-abroad-give-61.html

from Open Secrets report

CRP's totals based on employer are limited to donors contributing more than $200, since information is not provided to the Federal Election Commission for smaller contributions. So these figures are likely to disproportionately represent the mood of officers, who have more disposable income to spend on politics than do the lower ranks. But because young people tend to be more liberal than their elders, the total dollar figures could lean even more in Obama's favor.

this is not a popular war and it is not likely the smaller donors under $200 are more gungho on giving to McCain.

a report there could be more lopsided.

and later in the artcile

Only the Coast Guard prefers Democrats across the board, with 78 percent of employees' total federal contributions going to members of that party, and Obama beating McCain $7,795 to $250. Navas anecdotally confirmed that soldiers are often conservative but that many are making an exception in the presidential race. "Most of my friends are conservative Republicans and they say, 'I'm voting for Barack.' McCain does not have a lock on the military vote, that's for sure," he said. "We'll complete our duty -- I'm deploying next year -- because it's a commitment I made to the nation, not to a president. But we all know that Iraq was a big mistake."

Patsi
I fear your right.I guess for me its the lesser of well...If Florida wasn't close I would be voting for down ticket Dem's and sitting the top of the ticket out...

Morning,

Well, so much for an exciting VP choice. Nothing wrong with Biden particularly, I guess, he just bores me.

I thought I remember Obama saying that he wanted a whole new kind
of politics. Out with the old in with the new. . .Hillary and her generation were just so, well, know, ancient.

Biden is 66, considerably older than Hillary. And isn't he deeply embedded in all that OLD political machine that we were told, ad nauseam, throughout the primary Obama so hated. I'm perplexed, that's all.

Opps, that should read, "well, you know, ancient."

i know prof marcia

he doesnt have a vagina either

how can he be any good?

and his wife hasn't cheated on him

as far as we know

and his staff can keep a secret and works well together

as far as we know

and his kid is going to Iraq soon

as far as we know

he represents no change at all

Nick -- I never said McCain would be better. I said I don't like either candidate.

I will either write in Hillary Clinton or vote for Cynthia McKinney.

The Obama people make such bombastic posts that I think we're seeing Democrats morph into Bushbots. "If you don't vote the way I say, you hate Amurka, by Gawd!"

Spare me the crap.

If Obama ever actually talks policy instead of preening and smirking ala "W", he'll win. Simple as that.

Thanks, TJ.

The point I was suggesting was that the available sample is so small, it's statistically irresponsible to extrapolate the entire population from that sample.

The typical soldier will vote for the ticket they believe will provide them with a sense of confidence that they will be 'used' appropriately.

FWIW, there were a couple of elections in which I didn't vote because of lack of confidence in either candidate.

Trip

I'll vote for him as simply being better than a Republican after eight years of Bush. He has to be better and McCain is a dolt. I just won't be involved in the campaign.

trip,

huh? i think you're trippin'.

Just remember this Nick -- through the primary, the Obama on-line mob posted the same thing to baby boomers over and over and over: "STFU and get our of our way."

Uh, okay. We're out of your way. Gewt out and deliver the signs, walk the neighborhoods and get your guy elected.

Flatus -- Little blue circles -- BO's theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP0wEcyaOT4&feature=related

Patsi,

I completely agree with you. We have the choice of two flawed candidates.

I'm still not sure how I will vote, but I know, now, it won't be for Obama. My heart
won't let me. I might write in Hillary.

Fine, Patsi, I'll take you at your word, but then my initial post wasn't responding to you anyway (it was intially prompted by CatBalu's "disillusional" [sic] comment). If you think it's worth it to give up women's rights to make a point, that's your prerogative. Obama has made plenty of clear statements of policy, but you all choose to ignore them in favor of complaining about the standard political rhetoric that all politicians, including Hillary, tend to spew.

Also, all of this still doesn't change the fact that most PUMAs truly are Bushbots.

It's unfortunate that any Hillary supporters, even if it's a small minority, have let themselves get so blinded by irrational hate that they are attacking their own party as being like the Bush-repubs. If you have truly studied all the angles and made a non-visceral, well informed decision not to vote Obama, then I cheer for you. You are a rare American indeed, and I would be very happy if there were more like you. Of course, you would also be the first "PUMA" I've met to actually fit that description, so forgive me my skepticism.

God I have a long memory for some things. I still remember this:

Biden Undergoes Operation To Curb Danger From Clots

And that was 1988.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEEDA143DF93AA25750C0A96E948260

He had arteries to the brain aneurysms as I recall.

Now if I could only remember what I did this morning.

tt

Patsi - That last crack about Obama's online supporters makes my point, and illustrates why I worry about people like you. You can't write off a candidate because some of his supporters are wackjobs (and I fully admit that description applies to some Obama supporters). I think if you were being honest, you'd have to admit there were plenty of angry wackjob Hillary supporters out there too, but that didn't mean that I wouldn't vote for her had she won the nomination.

Most people are too emotional when it comes to politics. I believe in strong liberal values like universal health care, women's rights, etc., so I have to vote for Obama because he is the guy who will give us the best chance of achieving those goals, especially with the incredibly important supreme court appointments coming up. Even if I were mad about Hillary, I just can't see how anyone can want to potentially throw away any chance of her goals being achieved, even if she's not the one to achieve them. But that's me.

"It's unfortunate that any Hillary supporters, even if it's a small minority, have let themselves get so blinded by irrational hate that they are attacking their own party as being like the Bush-repubs.

It always ends up back at the same place, name calling when the obots don't hear what they want to hear.

Since the rest of us are still on the couch all you Obama fans better get going. Saturday is prime canvassing time, so your energies would be better spent knocking on doors telling people to vote for Barack Obama and Joe Biden. You might have to download and print your own lit since the Obama Campaign apparently isn't supplying it to the local campaigns.

Is this the same Nick that had the big fights in here earlier causing Craig to start deleting his messages? I don't think so because that Nick was anti-Obama, but the aggressiveness is similar.

Nick please provide concrete evidence that the PUMAs are actually "Bushbots" as you put it.

I'll say it again -- I am plugging my nose and voting for Obama, though after this vice-presidential vetting "process" and he recent move to the center (and some to the right) I confess I like him less that I did. I've committed my vote but my heart is very unsettled. For this vote I have to just focus on the larger picture ... keeping the Repugs out of the White House. If I let my thought processes stay focussed on my anger over the way Hillary has been treated, I'll end up probably voting Cynthia McKinney or even writing in Hillary's name.
However, the stakes are too high though to take this risk. For our future, I still urge voting for Obama/Biden '08

And in spite of great disappointment, I do think Obama is a decent man.

Nick I take it back. Your last post was very well written... sorry about that.

Nick,
Are you here on behalf of the Obama McCain or the DNC?

A statesman known for slips of his tongue

By EAMON JAVERS & JONATHAN MARTIN | 8/23/08 1:44 AM EST

Forget the idea that opposition researchers got cracking the very moment that Barack Obama announced Delaware Sen. Joe Biden as his running mate — they’ve long been poring over his records and background, and those of all the most likely vice presidential picks.

For all that, though, the likeliest attacks on Biden are all matters of public record, and often problems of his own making.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12735.html

This article worries me....

McCain=campaign

Well, I am very glad that HRC was not the one.... I am extremely happy!!!!!!

Now, let us leave the woman alone and please move on. She is out and she needs to be left alone...

Let us see how the chosen one goes on from here.

PS people....be on the lookout for the polls after the democratic convention. they ought to be very interesting. Njoy ya weekend all......

Greetings from warm and sunny Amsterdam

ps.: my parents are fine....

One more thing: The response from the BHO camp regarding HRC was amusing... Why wasn't she vetted? Response: She was vetted during the whole primary...LMPO...Come on BHO, couldn't yo even come with something more original.....???? be aware...

Or his ties to the healthcare and insurance industries, his non-support for universal healthcare.

I apologize if I'm coming across as aggressive. Frankly, Chloe, I'm responding to insults, not making them. Saying that I am analogous to a pro-Bush republican is an insult. My response that it's sad that any dem would say that is not an insult, just a lament for the days when there wasn't so much pointless infighting within our party.

I am not attacking everyone here, just those who think Obama is a terrible choice that is so much worse than Hillary that they'd rather McCain win. You don't all have to get defensive when that is my only target.

It's that one sided "it's so unfair how Hillary has been treated" attitude that frustrates me, but I am glad at least one person can move beyond it. Sure, Hillary was treated badly, as was Obama, as have been all political candidates since this country began. Even if you think for some reason that she was treated worse than the others, however, that makes a decision not to vote for Obama based on that belief emotional and irrational. Unless of course such people have further reasoning, which so far has not been forthcoming.

Not all PUMAs are Bushbots (I don't even really like that term, but I digress), just many of the more vocal ones. It has already been exposed that the founder of the PUMA group was a republican, and there has been zero polling to back up their persistent claims about the millions of voters allegedly abandoning the democratic party because Hillary was not nominated. They are demonstrably a very fringe group and thus any claims that they are legion must be met with skepticism.

As I said before, I fully respect those that divorce themselves from their emotions and make an informed decision to vote for any candidate, whether it be Obama, or an Independent, or even McCain. Most, however, use "truthiness" as their guide, and some here (those clearly not all) seemed to be doing just that.

Obama's campaign may have said some things that could be construed as sexist, but then Hillary's campaign said several things that could easily be construed as racist. And both those points ignore them main issue: even if Obama won't be quite as in favor of women's rights as you prefer (arguable), he is light years ahead of John "my wife's a C---" McCain. To give that Misogynist Bush clone even the smallest of advantages is questionable to say the least if you care about women's rights.

At the end of the day, I'm not trying to convince you that Obama is a saint and you're crazy for not seeing it. I'm just making the point that McCain is such a horrific choice that you better have some damn well thought out reasons not to vote for Obama other than you don't like how he treated Hillary in the primaries.

"Uh, okay. We're out of your way. Gewt out and deliver the signs, walk the neighborhoods and get your guy elected."

Yep. All those adoring fans are back where we were 40 years ago. Time to put our feet up and watch them work while we murmur, "Aren't they cute" lol

We had better candidates, but they have to work with what they've got.

Nick --

Oh thanks! We get it now.

McCain = Evil Bush Clone Misogynist Out of Touch Rich Guy

Who knew? So glad you stopped by to tell us.

At the end of the day, I'm not trying to convince you that Obama is a saint and you're crazy for not seeing it. I'm just making the point that McCain is such a horrific choice that you better have some damn well thought out reasons not to vote for Obama other than you don't like how he treated Hillary in the primaries.
---nick

Nick......just a word for the future......Americans really detest being lectured to.......

Joe Biden (VP) "on-the-job training" Comments about Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAaLEJwkh9c

nick

you are a breath of fresh air. even if those here won't admit that you are making good points, someone reading will.

thank you

Sooo...the text thing didn't work out very well.

Did the text go out at 3:00 AM an allusion to the famous 3:00 AM Primary Ad?

Or was it timed for when the bars closed?

nick is making fine points.....well made and thorough.....it's the lecturing and hectoring I can do without. maybe it's just me.

Biden pick shows lack of confindence:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080823/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes_analysis;_ylt=AmV1BET35d.SOZppfJ3Ih0Ks0NUE

My favorite quote from that article:

"So the question is whether Biden's depth counters Obama's inexperience — or highlights it?"

Make that confidence. By the way, I do like Biden.

And it's no wonder Amtrak loses money. They can't even tell time...

Denver, CO
California Zephyr
Scheduled Arrival 7:15 am
Arrived 9:15 am
1 hour and 54 minutes late.

Sturg, I think Nick's just making his points like anyone else. Politics is often a passionate past time.

Yeah, Nick! PUMA For Life!

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131712

What's up with your immaturity? Good grief!

Ok, it seems that some of you don't want to hear what I'm actually saying and instead want read into my words as being condescending (perhaps) and sexist (definitely not).

I probably didn't help matters with my tone, I'll grant. I appreciate those who have looked past my attitude to what I'm really trying to say.

Look, I know that I've been vaguely derogatory. I shouldn't be so snarky, but it's an unfortunate fixture in my character. I apologize. God knows I am not infallible. I sometimes let my emotions get the best of me. But, I also try very hard not to let that keep me from making rational decisions, especially when the decision as important as deciding who to support in this election.

Right now I'm trying to discern what rational decisions some of you are making, and I'm failing. I'm not saying that you are irrational people. I'm saying that you have given me nothing rational to consider. Truly, I am open to hearing your side of things, but "Obama was mean to Hillary" and "Obama is slightly less supportive of women's rights than Hillary" are not arguments that makes sense to me in this context. Maybe you can convince me otherwise but I definitely need more.

To be clear, I'm presuming that most of you are committed Democrats who voted for Gore and Kerry. If you are a Republican who crossed over only to support Hillary, than I fully understand and respect your stance, even if I strongly disagree with it. If you are an independent, then I less fully understand, but I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Nick, I was joking. Just the way people are characterizing other people here. Like it makes a difference.

I'm with you, Sturge.

read that Ron Fornier AP article and see if it sounds like anything AP used to put up.

it is an opinion piece calling itself an analysis and not different from anything you would see on Fox News.

there are several other AP stories and they are not like the story corey put up.

wire services used to stick to reporting the news.

I just had hoped it would have been John Edwards. I mean, he has great experience with domestic affairs.

Sturg,

Again, if you are truly being honest, you have to admit that many Hillary supporters have said as bad or worse. There are plenty of angry people on both sides, which is why my fervent hope is that I can convince at least some (including some of the hyperactive anti-Hillary, Obama supporters) that we need to move past this and make informed, rational decisions that bring us together as a party that can save this country from the depths of Bush's disaster of a presidency, instead of tepidly imploding again and again.

If I made my voting decisions based on how little I liked some of the supporters of a given candidate, I would never vote at all.

Nick.....nice writing.

in re rational decisions:

a. I think it's illogical and irrational to think that comments on a blog are going to make anything happen, anywhere.

b. I think it's patently obvious that no one who posts on this blog is going to change his or her mind because of something they see someone say here.

c. I think it doesnt matter a hoot in hell for whom I cast my vote or whether I cast one or not because I happen to live in SC.........Dyed in the Wool GOPland.

dont step in the gozanga.

I'll take Obama/Biden over the alternative ANY DAY.

It's just that he gives the other side more mud to sling because he has a past.

tt

Trip, where do you get your news?

Don't worry Corey, I got it. I'm just a slow typer and have a tendency not to reply to people by name--a bad combo, no doubt ;)

I've actually been impressed by the restraint of the readers here. This really is a place of relative tranquility in the sea of political punditry.

Chloe, This Nick is not the one you know from a few months ago.

Nick, yes, we are tranquil.

*omm*

tt

Again, if you are truly being honest, you have to admit that many Hillary supporters have said as bad or worse.

--nick

check back with me after you've been exposed to him for awhile......lol

Alas, it is true that convincing anyone of anything online is a losing proposition. But I think we can all agree that sometimes it's fun to fight the good fight just because we can =)

The whole point of that AP article was just pointing out that how Obama ran his campaign and about how he was a Washington outsider, but he picked a guy for VP who has been in D.C. for over 35 years, which is even longer than McCain has been in D.C. Like I said, I like Biden. He was my choice for President in the beginning.

Yeah. I wish I was rich, married and unfaithful.

And no, I am not this Nick from the past. This is my first day being exposed to this site at all. I found a link from somewhere else re: reactions to Biden. So I know nothing about any of you or your usual stances on things political. I apologize if I mischaracterized some of you and again I'm sorry for coming on so strong. I do get carried away sometimes about my political passions.

Nick -- That's better. Welcome.

I am a committed DEM and have spent my entire adult life either working to get DEMs elected, working for them while in office, or a combination of both.

I am a Hillary advocate, trying to suck it up and support the DEM nominee, as pledged DEMs like myself are sworn to do. As a sworn DEM I am obligated to support the nominee.

But during this cycle I am going to devote my time, energy and money to the downticket candidates. I'm glad to have a variety of DEM candidates who I feel really good about helping and supporting.

Nick,

You fought the good fight. You tried to convince vegetarians that just because they had a black bean soup available at the restaurant, instead of their favorite white bean soup, that they shouldn't get angry, leave and go to Ruth Chris Steakhouse and order a thick filet mignon.

But for all your logic, you forgot one thing: Barack is black, so having Hillary lose to a BLACK MAN is particularly egregious. That makes these fringe Clinton supporters angry. And anger is irrational. So you decide that protecting your political interests by voting for the candidate who mirrors your own favorite candidate's views is not important. What's important is not breaking your PERSONAL views, which is that you're like one in six Pennsylvanians who say they'll never vote for a black candidate because of the color of his skin. And that's a rational reason for their irrational response to your arguments.

mark ambinder on the AP story corey posted

Ron Fournier says the pick demonstrates a lack of confidence. Maybe. Or maybe the pick demonstrates Obama's confidence and a tempering of his overconfidence. Confidence, because Biden could upstage him, will be independent, and will be better at certain things than Obama. But if Obama were overconfident, if he believed that his personality and story alone were enough, then he'd have chosen someone less threatening.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/an_outside_the_comfort_zone_pi.php#more

But, you can't touch him. Too bad for you.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm glad I managed not to paint myself as a total ass. It's been known to happen. To be clear, I am not backing down from my primary points, just from the language in which they were couched ;)

Anyway, my wife is starting to get peeved at me for spending all morning commenting on political blogs, so I think I'm gonna go make her lunch.

Until next time, folks.

Corey!

I'd settle for fat, dumb and happy.

tt

Yes. Obama realizes he needs someone like Biden.

Good! TT! LOL!

It's just that no matter how much we've hated GWB, nobody would ever wanna have Cheney take over for him.

corey

i read lots of newspapers and blogs and AP and Reuters. Reuters would never run something like the Fornier article and AP would not have done so before new management a few months ago.

they are trying to jazz up their offerings but readers go to AP for facts, not attitude and opinion. they did lable this analysis, which means it does not meet their usual stnadards.

yourself?

It's good to have you back, Sturge.

gracias, mein herr.......

Trip, many places now run opinions. Look at the TV. Are you gonna say the MSNBC isn't biased towards Obama? Fox won't be biased towards McCain. The local FOX station here always says "We report the news, you decide." Claiming that they don't give their opionions while reporting the news. If you've read hear enough, you'll see a lot of pro-Obama columns from HuffPo. Are their columns fact or opinions. I'm just saying if you are gonna call the AP on it, there are others at fault as well.

Corey, they say that here too, "We report the news, you decide."

Bull feathers.

tt

Luckily, I have to be to work by 10:15 p.m., so I miss the FOX News at 10:00 here. I only watch the local news between 5 and 6.

" Barack is black, so having Hillary lose to a BLACK MAN is particularly egregious"

Mr. D, I wish you would drop this crap. We have now heard it for months. The ONLY reason anyone could oppose Obama is because he has a black father. If anything for most liberals that is a plus point not a negative and to accuse those who don't support him as being racists just makes him look even more inexperienced and less attractive.

I concede that there are some working class enclaves where this may enter into consideration, but if they have always voted Democratic, they are not suddenly going to shriek and run away to McCain any more than those areas that voted for him because he was black would suddenly throw up their hands and vote McCain if there was a woman there.

I just dont' understand why so many Obama supporters think that name calling, insults, and pure cussed meaness is going to attract votes.

I'm frightened if Corey thinks Fox isn't shilling for McCain.

"Barack is black, so having Hillary lose to a BLACK MAN is particularly egregious. "

Oh, Christ. Here we go again. Time to sign off before being called an old racist hag.

Since if I can't write in Hillary I'm voting for Cynthia McKinney, does that make me half-racist, or "afraid of black men"?

That should have been a question mark at the end of that sentence, Mr. D.

"FOX won't be biased towards McCain?"

I missed that before submitting.

Nope, not going to drop what's true, or what makes you uncomfortable. And don't believe that just because folks attach "liberal" to their name that they're immune to being racist. Geraldine Ferraro showed that. Liberalism doesn't mean that you won't make decisions based on race. Those folks simply aren't honest to themselves and take comfort in having "black friends" to rationalize their behavior. Working class whites just tend to be more outwardly honest about their views.

And as for not understanding why Obama supporters think that name calling, etc. can attract votes, we can't understand how Clinton folks think saying they'll write in Hillary's name or sit at home will make us help pay for her campaign debt. So call it even.

true corey but AP used not to be like MSNBC and others. more an honest broker. Reuters still is.

cable tv is for ratings. AP was always nonpartisan. now its attitude too. did not used to be. troubling.

Whew, Corey!

Spike

Denver, CO
California Zephyr
Scheduled Arrival 7:15 am
Arrived 9:15 am
1 hour and 54 minutes late

Most people aren't aware that all passenger trains must give way to all freight trains. Anything that closes a section of track and causes switching of freight to different rails will screw up the passenger schedules.

Seems way back when someone in government decided now that we had freeways and excellent airlines, no one would ever really want to ride the trains, so the track was sold to the freight carriers who now out of the goodness of their shriveled little hearts allow passenger trains to use them at the freight carriers discretion.

Now that we need trains desperately we have what is (except for the Eastern Corridor) the worst rail system in the world.

long live the PUMAs

"Since if I can't write in Hillary I'm voting for Cynthia McKinney, does that make me half-racist, or "afraid of black men"?

Patsi, you said it, not me. It just allows you to feel that you're not racist by voting for someone black who has no change at power, versus voting for someone black who will have power. It's like white Southern families calling their long time black cook a member of the "family". They get to feel that their everyday actions aren't racist because they "love" their black servant.

it makes you another vote for McCain Patsi. just like John Anderson siphoned off votes from Jimmy Carter and Reagan was elected. it does not make you a patriot. it wastes your vote and lets some biblethumper or repub have their vote count and you throw yours away. its a cop out too.

the perfect is the enemy of the good. or bite off your own nose to spite your face

Great ad from the Repubs.

Joe Biden On Barack Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8

PUMA

A video with a twist. Watch at the 3:30 mark or so.

http://www.dailymotion.com/us/featured/video/x6hnsn_swingerstates817fullgoodplayer_news

the candidate of change has changed me from a yellow dog democrat to an independant

Okay, Bye Bye -- everything's about you being black. That's all that's important in the world. No women have been raped or beaten or sold into slavery in history. You're far more righteous than me because my anscestors were just serfs in France. You trump everything. You get to make sexist slurs and accusations every day, all day long. You thrive on being a race baiter. Be my guest.

Mr. D

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131813

I don't think you can say that the Obama skeptics in this forum are enraged about his nomination because he's black and beat Hillary.

I certainly know that you can't say that about me. I have worked for candidates of all races, including a number of AAs.

But you are correct that there is a troubling anti-black vein of venom out there in the electorate -- just as there was an anti-woman vein. I am really troubled by some comments that I've heard expressed by people, who think they are free to express their racist thoughts to me because I am white. OTH, I've also had DEM-id'd black men tell me that they would never vote for a woman, even if it meant voting for a GOP. I've also had white women tell me they would never vote for a woman. I don't waste my time trying to convince those people, not when there is a motherlode of undecided voters to win over.

Oh, one more thing...better not let Cynthia McKinney hear you call her a "house negro" because she just might punch your lights out.

18 million votes…versus, uh, 9,500 votes

"FOX News is so much fun…they’re saying repeatedly that Hillary Clinton received 18 million votes in the primaries, while Joe Biden received 9,500 votes, and yet SoetorObama never even put Hillary Clinton on the short list for vice president (thank Hera), and never vetted her.

Interesting.

Maybe SoetorObama is so confident about his electoral prospects that he thinks he needs just 9,500 votes to put him over the top, and that Clinton’s 18 million votes aren’t really needed, the same way SoetorObama surrogate Donna Brazile insists the Democratic Party, at large, doesn’t need the blue collar working class “bitter gun-and-religion-clingers” or Hispanics either."

http://hillbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/18-million-votesversus-uh-9500-votes/

LOL @ the Swinger States video 8~D

Well, wishful thinking got the better of me last night. I was hoping for HRC until Biden became official. It would have been nice to see Obama put an end to some of the pettiness coming out of his compaign and some of the anti-Clinton hysteria from some of his followers.

Old fashioned network TV exercise circa 1980.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e_gtv9SLvY

New cable TV exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjirfzoA38g

Thought y'all'd wanna know.

tt

yeah, katie, Clinton campaign was never petty and none of her folks were anti-Obama.

wanted to be prez in kindergarten

pumas

but youre right it is time to get past this. thank you for that.

Mr. D: You can never trust or accept friendship from anyone outside your own race because you can't trust that it's nothing more than whitey's patronizing affection for the "family cook?"

It must be terrible to be you.

will say this kaitie

if Obama chose Hillary I would have been OK with that.

Mr. D

" Geraldine Ferraro showed that."

People CHOSE to interpret her remarks as racist. All she said was that if Barack Obama had been white he wouldn't have gotten the chances he got to rise to the top as soon as he did anymore than she would have been given to rise to the top if she hadn't been a woman.

That just happens to be the truth. Being black got his foot in the door and a whole lot of support from party elders that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. End result, he is now at the top of the ticket. My preference would have been that he had completed at least one term as a Senator if only to prove he could actually do one job before running for the next one.

None of the above means that he is less intelligent, less capable of learning, or less adept at making the most of the experience he is getting. To me it just means that he is going for too much too fast and I'm glad that Biden will be there to provide the counsel of experience.

John Harwood on MSNBC

Biden is on the ticket to make the racially insensitive feel comfortable

More from Biden's "forgotten" past.
========================
Archie Biden

"Clarence Thomas sits on the Supreme Court because Joe Biden is a coward. As Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Biden allowed Republicans to hijack the Thomas confirmation hearings. He watched passively while the nominee’s perjury was overshadowed by vicious right wing attacks upon Dr. Anita Hill. Witnesses who were prepared to substantiate Hill’s allegations of professional misconduct against Thomas were not summoned because Biden’s top priority was mollifying his reactionary colleagues.

Biden became enraged during the Thomas hearings, but his hostility was not the Republicans who smeared an honorable woman or at the judicial nominee who lied under oath. Instead, the senator furiously denounced civil rights groups and women’s organizations that claimed they had convinced him to derail the nomination. “Joe Biden is not in anyone’s pocket!” he thundered.

The would-be Democratic presidential nominee may not be in the pocket of the Democratic base, but he is definitely in the pocket of Corporate America."

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/archie-biden/

PUMA

Oh no, Alicia. That's not true at all. My friends are my friends. I just don't use them as a justification for or against whatever personal philosophy I may have. I don't say that because I have white friends, that I can't possibly be biased. Or because I have Latino friends, that I know everything about Latino culture and I can say that there's no difference in terms of political priorities, culture or community.

Ah Jamie, if you don't understand how insulting that is to African Americans, then I understand why you don't understand how Hillary Clinton lost her black support in one fell swoop.

Jamie -- What I thought was humorous was that the time difference between 7:15 and 9:15 used to be 2 hours and 0 minutes, not 1 hours and 54 minutes. Guess they must be using Amtrak time (:>)...

By the way, the "too much, too fast" quote echoes what whites used to tell black people when talking about giving blacks their first class citizenship rights. It always appeared to them that things were happening "too much, too fast".

Trip,
The problem I have with Obama is that some of the pettiness continues even after the primaries were over or nearly over. Examples: appointing Patti Solis Doyle to be cheif of staff for the VP, denying a speaking roll to Charles Wrangle at the convention because he supported HRC, Bill Burton shamelessly pushing that ridiculous RFK gaff story, not meeting with Bill Clinton for dinner, spreading all those stories at the end of the primary that he was working out a deal to help retire HRC's debt and then not even being willing to send an e-mail to his supporters to help her.

All of these acts are remarkably counterproductive for someone who has sold himself as a uniter and who now has cheif responsibility for uniting the party to assure a Democratic victory in the fall. He has the easier job of being gracouis in victory. HRC has done better at the much tougher job of being gracious in defeat.

But you are right we need to get over the primary bitterness because the issues are too important.

People CHOSE to interpret Ferraro remarks as racist. All she said was that if Hillary Clinton had not been first lady s he wouldn't have gotten the chances she got to rise to the top as soon as she did anymore than she would have been given to rise to the top if she hadn't been a woman married to Pres Bill Clinton.

That just happens to be the truth. Being first lady got her foot in the door and a whole lot of support from party elders that she wouldn't have gotten otherwise. End result, she was considered ther front runner and ready for top of the ticket. My preference would have been that s he had run for at least one office before she was first lady and famous throughout the land. on the public nickel.

she could have done another job after first lady before running for New York senator.

None of the above means that she is less intelligent, less capable of learning, or less adept at making the most of the experience she is getting. To me it just means that she went too far too fast.

I'm glad that Biden will be there to provide the counsel of experience.

and wahts wrong with being senator from New York? she is good at that.

Why is Chuck Shumer not running for president? he has more expericence as senator from New York. and leadership positions too.

why not Robert Byrd? he has experience in the senate and understands the problems of the elderly.

Papers report today that Ralph Nader will be on the Oregon ballot representing the Peace Party.

This could be significant because Oregon was one of Nader's best states.

I wish Nader would get out of the way so voters could have a clear choice between the major candidates.

Nader is even more arrogant that Obama and McCain.

Mr. D

What is insulting about it? He is well educated. Speaks well. Attracted the interest of Chicago pols and jumped from office to office until winning the Senate seat against virtually no opposition, and started running for the Presidency after only a year in office.

The whole point of affirmative action was to see that other races than white got the opportunity to prove themselves in an arena that had been barred to them before. He was given that opportunity to give the Keynote Speech in 2004 as a state senator who hadn't even completed one term and had been elected to the US Senate and now look where he is.

There have been all these comparisons to Kennedy, but John Kennedy had been in office at the national level for 14 years before running for the Presidency.

Well Mr. D -- That's good to know you don't limit your friendships to one racial group. Everyone has racial/cultural/ethnic biases. It really matters what you do about your bias. Do you act on your bias, make decisions on based on your bias? Or do you try to challenge your bias to overcome your prejudices?

BTW, it's not just working class whites who have a deep fear of black empowerment. Even among some well-to-do, college-educated whites there is a fear that if a black man is in the White House the rest of the black community will extract some sort of retaliation on whites. I try to explain that it's an old irrational fear we've heard before and it's never come to fruition. But that's the kind of racist thoughts that are out there. I don't know if these people would have voted for Hillary (even though some said they would) --- because racism and sexism tend to travel together.

Chloe, "This Nick is not the one you know from a few months ago." Posted by: Boss Tweed | August 23, 2008 12:54 PM

Thanks Tweed. But of course I knew that. Nick was always 'real'.

Trip

"she could have done another job after first lady before running for New York senator. None of the above means that she is less intelligent, less capable of learning, or less adept at making the most of the experience she is getting. To me it just means that she went too far too fast. "

Trip. Being first lady got her the opportunity to run for the Senate. She succeeded and COMPLETED her first term and was REELECTED to her second term before running for President. She also had 30 years experience with the Women's Defense fund and was a practicing attorney for 14 years while in Arkansas.

There is a definite difference in the level of experience between Clinton and Obama and willingness to complete one job before moving on to the other. But yes, being a former first lady did gain her attention that another woman senator with a 30 year work records might not have received.

LOL

Obama's "hidden" and Biden's "forgotten" past.

G Man quit the Democrat pretense!

But for all your logic, you forgot one thing: Barack is black, so having Hillary lose to a BLACK MAN is particularly egregious.

Posted by: Mr. Democrat

While this may be true for SOME, I doubt this is the issue. The issue is how two historical firsts had the chance to break a glass ceiling which created a lot of hard feelings for certain constiuencies.

jamie

maybe she should have run in 2004 instead of waiting for easier 2008

it wasn't

to be a bit more eloquent, certain constituencies that saw their candidate lose...

EuroTom,

I can agree with that to a point. But for the "unreconstructed", I have questions.

Yeah A real foul-mouthed ass

Trip

2004 against a sitting President who still had good favorability ratings at a time when the US was at war and she was still somewhat under the cloud of having "bought" her Senate seat by being first lady when she had not completed her first term which she had promised to do.

.

Jamie,

Doesn't Obama have more legislative experience in total than Hillary?

You're late. I unsubscribed from Barrackobama.com this morning so that they don't bother me with the money and campaign work pitches.

At least something good came out of today!

One problem Biden may have is that Deleware is the mistress of the credit card industry.

craig - The grief isn't over Hil'ry, it's over the loss of the party to the effete literati, once again. Biden does nothing to shore up my desire for an Obama win any more than it does for the possibilty of an Obama win. It's Kerrey/Edwards all over, again.

What was up with the local TX news yesterday? Camped out at Chet Edwards' place in case he was chosen veep nom. Chet???

This is good for Hil'ry...it frees her up for 2012 and she isn't tarnished by being part of a losing ticket.

Hil'ry '12!

Ignore the knotheads..

I'll tell ya the main problem Biden has.......and that's Obama's supporters.......

keep it up guys.....youre killin' 'em over at the RNC.....lol

Obama has more legislative experience than John Edwards.

Patsi -- You might also enjoy this blogger's post about Cynthia McKinney. It would be nice to vote *for* someone whose issues are more like our own, rather than just the least unlike our own. She addresses the viability quandry as well.

http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2008/08/04/the-women-still-in-the-race/

"I never said she was a "house negro", so those are your words and your characterization of McKinney. "

BS. You are such a liar. Read what you wrote. You certainly equated her to one. You do absolutely nothing by whine about being black. You are a race baiter.

Jamie, you can give that cash directly to Mark Penn, who is owed $5 million as of the last count.

As for Cynthia McKinney, she won't even win her old district.

Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs told "Good Morning America Weekend Edition" co-anchor Kate Snow, "We weren't trying to hide anything. We're pretty good at keeping secrets. ... I have a feeling that most of the people who normally text were probably up and got it."

"Delaware is the mistress of the credit card industry. "

And the home of every fly by night, blue sky corporation

Yes I am a race baiter and a jerk no matter what name I use

Mr. D

I'm not voting for Ms. McKinney so what she does or doesn't win isn't important.

Nope. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. What I said was that YOUR attitude was like a white Southern family treating their black cook as "family" in order to rationalize their racism. BTW, "house negro" is accurately used in associating with slavery. I never said this situation had anything to do with slavery. So you're wrong on that count too.

Sorry Jamie, that was meant for Patsi.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131894

Corey,

And Edwards was a very bad VP candidate in 2004 and an even worse Presidential candidate in 2008. It was his lack of experience that made me not support him in the first place.

Ignore the knotheads!

That was the point, Jamie. In 2004, Edwards less experience than people say Obama does in 2008. But, nobody made an issue out of it like they did with Obama.

Next you'll be telling me that he supports obama now.........

You just gotta pay attention, Sturge. That's all.

from Mr. D

Patsi, you said it, not me. It just allows you to feel that you're not racist by voting for someone black who has no change at power, versus voting for someone black who will have power. It's like white Southern families calling their long time black cook a member of the "family". They get to feel that their everyday actions aren't racist because they "love" their black servant.

where is house negro? I dont see it.

sturgeone..there has been some participation in the "ignore the knotheads" movement.

Some posters seem to enjoy dysfunctional relationships.

I had a choice of leaving he blog like so many others have done OR choosing to ignore the knotheads.

I enjoy many of the posts and learn a lot from the links posted.

and bye-bye's only good side is that he's not here 24/7......he must have a job or something......

Corey,

Even if he was a dud as a VP candidate, he still had been one so the lack of experience probably didn't stick out like a sore thumb in 2008 the way it did with Obama plus he was pushing a big issue in universal health care that tied in with his work experience, so the other candidates didn't really bring it up. As I said, it entered into my consideration but you are right that the lack of experience didn't get the news attention.

OD......okiedoke......I'll give it a try.....has to be better than this................those to make my butt wrinkle......

rats.......those TWO make my butt wrinkle

More from Biden's "forgotten" past.
========================
Joe Biden's plagiarism problem

"Political insiders have long known about Joe Biden getting caught plagiarizing almost word-for-word a speech given by British Labour politician Neil Kinnock. In fact, that killed his 1988 presidential campaign.

But a more serious plagiarism charge has been out there even longer - that he plagiarized in law school.

1987 New York Times :

According to the people familiar with the record of the 44-year-old Senator from Delaware, he was called before the disciplinary body at the law school during his first year because of charges that he had committed plagiarism on a paper. Mr. Biden entered the school in 1965 and graduated in 1968.

CBS News tonight quoted an aide to Mr. Biden as saying he had been exonerated. However, an academic official said Mr. Biden had been found guilty ...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/joe_bidens_plagiarism_problem.html

Sturgeone..I'll think you will find this a much more pleasant experience.

If you can see the wrinkles on your butt hole, at least that lets me know where your head is at. Thanks for sharing!

Nope. It was a softball that I had to hit out the park.

I am making the case for all, to sit this one out, as I will do 100%
But anyone who wants to vote Mc Cain or Obama go ahead, I respect every choice.

Not all opportunities should be taken.

Jason

I would dearly love to see a None of the Above on the ballot. As it is, stuck with the Dems.

Biden

I am here for the future of your kids

Obama gaffe --Obama introduced Biden as the next president of the United States (quickly corrected himself)

Jamie, then do not vote. I refuse to vote just because I am (was) democrate.... If none of the candidates fit my standards I DO NOT VOTE.

Biden did a great job of tying McCain to Bush
Unfortunately Biden has too many example of supporting Bush

its important to have standards

you know not to take your eye off the big picture don't you

those people who didnt vote for Kerry because he was a stuffed shirt. wow. they showed em

Obama, is a two-faced liar. He said "Sen. Clinton, would be on anybodies short list." But, what he failed to tell us, was that she was never on his list at all. So much for a man who wants to bring party unity. I thought he wanted to bring new poltics to the country. If so, then why did he pick Biden? He has been in the senate longer than McCain. And how come you Obama supporters aren't all pissed off at Biden, he said some pretty nasty things about Obama also, or was it just because those remarks, weren't made by Sen. Clinton. CHANGE MY ASS. I hope him and Michelle, are real proud of themselves, because of their arrogance, they have torn The Democratic Party in TWO. I hope McCain, crosses party lines, and ask Sen Clinton, to be his V.P., and I hope her and Bill tell The Obamas, his supporters, and THE DNC TO KISS THEIR ASSES.

If you can see the wrinkles on your butt hole, at least that lets me know where your head is at. Thanks for sharing!
--bye bye

this is an example of bye-bye's wit? Hell, I know 3rd graders who are sharper than that..........

bye bye went into the woods to live by his wits and came out half starved.....

lol.....whatta pair of goobers......

ok.....ignoring in effect now.

Tommy Chong had this to say to the Washington Post about Joe Biden:

"Check out the people you're voting for.... "For instance, Joseph Biden comes off as a liberal Democrat, but he's the one who authored the bill that put me in jail. He wrote the law against shipping drug paraphernalia through the mail - which could be anything from a pipe to a clip or cigarette papers."

Hillary matters

and its up to her to give an equally strong speech at the convention

she should get a good cabinet post

now trip......youre upsettiing the narrative with that common sense approach to a complex problem.......

For some reason, the late Dr. Gonzo's words keep haunting me this year. While so many of the circumstances in this year's election are unprecedented ("vuja de," as George Carlin would say), Team Obama keeps making moves that recall the absurd overconfidence of the McGovern campaign in 1972, when Mankiewicz, Hart & Co. seriously believed that the unpopularity of Nixon and the Vietnam war would guarantee the election of whoever won the Democratic Party nomination.
http://rsmccain.blogspot.com/2008/08/d-minus-2-gonzo-on-veeps.html

Another one (AP) bites the dust.

"The latest piece from Ron Fournier, the AP's Washington bureau chief and the man responsible for directing the wire service's coverage of the presidential campaign, on Joe Biden joining the Democratic ticket, is drawing a fair amount of attention this morning.
. . Fournier's objectivity covering the presidential race continues to look shaky."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014385.php

"she should get a good cabinet post"

Clinton should stay in the senate

"BTW, "house negro" is accurately used in associating with slavery."

MD
Are you that ignorant of your own cultural divisions?
Suburbia makes one lose contact with their roots. It's not the same when you learn it from a book is it?
Jack

MD@1:05 PM

That was truly sick. Seek professional help--immediately.

Basement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_feSFZSVfxw

Alicia, i'm missing something here: "As a sworn DEM I am obligated to support the nominee."

Why swear to a political party?

more on Ron Fornier of AP

its insidious how he is changing the tone of coverage. Washington Monthly has this

Second, in context, Fournier's objectivity covering the presidential race continues to look shaky. We are, after all, talking about a journalist who, as recently as last year, considered working for the McCain campaign.

Before Ron Fournier returned to The Associated Press in March 2007, the veteran political reporter had another professional suitor: John McCain's presidential campaign.

In October 2006, the McCain team approached Fournier about joining the fledgling operation, according to a source with knowledge of the talks. In the months that followed, said a source, Fournier spoke about the job possibility with members of McCain's inner circle, including political aides Mark Salter, John Weaver and Rick Davis.

We learned not too long ago that Fournier exchanged emails with Karl Rove about Pat Tillman, in which Fournier wrote, "The Lord creates men and women like this all over the world. But only the great and free countries allow them to flourish. Keep up the fight."

.....................

And then, within hours of Obama announcing his running mate, there's Fournier again, writing up another piece -- whether it's a news article or an opinion piece is, again, unclear -- that the McCain campaign just loves.

Sandy Johnson, the former DC bureau chief of the AP, was asked about Fournier and the bureau when she was forced out as part of a staff shake-up. "I just hope he doesn't destroy it," she said.

**********************************************************

Fornier is blurring the line at AP. we dont need less accuracy in our nonpartisan reporting

this is a real problem

the link

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_08/014385.php

lol@ sock drawer

Jack

Now you are complaining about the AP

What about Nedra Pickler? The most recent shakeup is just more of the same at the AP

Flatus

Do you read Joe Galloway's blog?

Here is his latest.
"Commentary: Farewell to an American hero"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/galloway/story/49688.html

Jack

Once again Prince Obama surrounds himself, with old White man that couldn't become POTUS by themselves. Kennedy, Kerry, Edwards, Gore, and now Biden. Well we can only hope that Obama joins that club of LOSERS.

Thanks for the link, Jack. A fine tribute. Galloway sure writes some stuff that I agree with. When I heard of Too Tall's demise, I recalled Moore's book and how exactly it captured the military experience of the time.

Hillary is still relevant

but her interests and the interests of the Democratic party are not identical

cannot imagine she will want Biden to do all the campaigning she will want to be out there too her future depends on it

Those who want to punish Senator Obama for alledgedly dissing Senator Clinton are, in fact, honoring him, because they are choosing to follow his alledged example, dissing 300 million Americans and countless billions of world citizens by voting for McSame or not voting at all.

So, do all you Hillary lovers really want to be perceived in exactly the same way you perceive Senator Obama or what?

Ben.......say what?

hey Lampe ,thanks for reminding us of all the losers are party has put out. After Obama joins them maybe the DNC will let another state decide our candidiate. I mean really IOWA? And then it's even fewer people because its a caucus. This is why we LOSE .

Lampe http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131957

So do you want another old white loser to be president?

Not sure I understand your point.

What I meant was, two wrongs don't make a right. If people follow an example they think was wrong, the world won't somehow be "right" after the next election.

Those who think Senator Obama was wrong for (allegedly) giving Senator Clinton no credit or support will be committing the same sort of wrong in giving Senator Obama no credit or support.

And the nation, the world and the future won't change for the better; we'll be left with more of the same.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131935

Not quite as sad as someone who can only feel good about themselves by tearing down and insulting others.

whskyjack; 9:39 am...........You are correct, running from the only successful democratic leader in 2 decades has cost 2 elections and now this one..........

Flatus; 9:47 am......... I also, am an independent democrat who doesn't believe in the golden calf, we should refer to them as what they are - back room, double dealing, losers who hope to govern through their own personal manufactured opportunist.

For the rest of you "idol worshippers" out there, so much for "change" they couldn't define it, so I guess they couldn't do it. Good Luck with your NEW democratic party. I for one, am extremely glad that Hillary is not part of this disgusting display of BS.........

Rita

I run a few errands and look what happens. According to Jack, I don't know my own culture. Thanks Jack, I'll schedule a remedial course with you next week.

I was just listening to Ring of Fire. Substitute host for RFK, jr. and I didn't catch his name but he said he was hoping that Bobby Jindal would be the VP pick for the Republicans. He wanted to see "exorcist" campaign ads with Republican spinning heads for McCains constantly changing positions.

For those who hadn't heard about it, Jindal tells a story about helping to "cast out demons" from the body of a friend.

Thank you, your statement just proved my point. I have watched you and another the last couple of days absolutely taunt, berate and make ugly accusations towards people, people who I might add seem clever, brilliant and humorous. I saw that good natured Viv left now too. You are a spineless, ball less excuse. Leave these people alone, stop interrupting the exchange of ideas and start engaging in conversation.

hey brainyass in ny, she is relavant, she will always be relevant. she was the first FLOTUS to become a senator. she was also reelected. we don't even know if BHO would have managed that, because he has done absolutly NOTHING since he has been in the senate-except run for pres.
in my long life i have never voted in the primaries for the person that went on to be the nominee, but i have always supported the nominee (even dumb-shit-kerry) but between BHO arogance and the hatred from people like you, i wouldn't vote for him if he personally asked me. so keep up the crap, if it makes you feel good, trust me it is not helping BHO get votes.

People here take the shortest naps. Leave for the day and come back in 30 minutes.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131867

Apples and Oranges. Voting rights are the right of every single citizen whatever their condition in life.

Too much too soon in relation to Obama would be like trusting a 747 to someone who had only flown a crop duster.

Anytime MD
I have your first lesson prepared.
I hate seeing people make a fool of themselves.
You can't learn everything by visiting grandpa in the summers.

Jack

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131947

About as many times as you need to be told that insults do not assist your chosen candidate.

I see Right Wing Gordo is now on the attack against Biden.

Just make sure you have black skin before you reserve a room. You can't understand what it means to be black just by watching Cosby.

Obama said that Biden is a leader who is ready to be the next president of the United States? I thought he was gonna be Obama's VP?

"Are you gonna say the MSNBC isn't biased towards Obama?"

Corey: MSNBC's David Gregory hasn't quite crossed into FOX territory, but his snide comments about Senator Obama border on the sort of disdainful comments Mr. Bush makes about those who scare him because they (a) disagree with him and/or (b) are smarter than he.

David Gregory seems very scared that he will be exposed as a lightweight and/or he will have to pay more taxes if Senator Obama is elected, and his constant negative diatribes about the Senator are anything but fair reporting. One can almost hear the venom oozing through him each time he has to discuss the Senator's campaign.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131885

Rez, It is almost a tie. Obama served at the state level for 7 years and then served 1 as US Senator before he started running. Clinton served a full 6 year term at the national level was reelected and then almost 2 years before running for President. She has more at national and he has more at state.

OD is right you know.......they aint going away and the only answer is to just ignore them.......(they dont seem to realize that obama would probably go up 20 points in the polls if they'd just shut their ugly mouffs up......)

I mean.....when you think about it......there's only really 2 of them......that shouldnt be so hard.....It was also Craig's advice some time back......

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131901

Alpha 1906

Hi there. You haven't been around for a while. Did you ever go after that Alpha 1906 belt buckle I found?

I mean........Rezdog and Warren and Trip and a couple of others manage to support obama without being assholes like those two......obama would still have supporters here.....and he might actually make some headway here if he didnt have these 2 jerkinpoles for his support.

The part I enjoyed about the Biden speech was the words "denied" and "deferred". He was harking back to Raisin in the Sun.

Now if the Obama supporters can catch up to the nobility and pride of a Langston Hughes and glory in the black experience instead of the whining ...

I have a dream.

Thanks to all my fellow Clinton supports.
It has been such a good read today and has made me feel much better, since you have all said it so much better than I could have.

Clinton Congratulates Biden
"While Democrats insist they will rally behind Sen. Barack Obama and his vice presidential pick, some Clinton supporters remain bitter about what could have been.

"...Wolfson said Biden "won't automatically bring along disaffected Hillary voters, especially those who are older women. But no one was going to do that besides Hillary anyway."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5496102&page=1

Hey Sturge,

Name one person who's changed their Clinton views simply because of the arguments on this blog?

hey brainyass in ny,
but between BHO arogance and the hatred from people like you, i wouldn't vote for him if he personally asked me. so keep up the crap, if it makes you feel good, trust me it is not helping BHO get votes.

Posted by: NelsonDecker

Your post made me smile, it so well expresses my feelings, thanks.

PUMA/Clintons4McCain

toast

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131991

Benjamin Blue

Do you feel that MSNBC trashed Clinton in order to get Obama and will now proceed to bashing Obama to get McCain?

I don't, but I'm wondering about what you are seeing.

"I see Right Wing Gordo is now on the attack against Biden."

Posted by: Jamie Author Profile Page | August 23, 2008 5:18 PM
==============================

You see PUMA Gordo now on the attack against Biden.

Two of my personal favorites, but there were so many others too.

"Obama....said "Sen. Clinton, would be on anybodies short list." But, what he failed to tell us, was that she was never on his list at all. So much for a man who wants to bring party unity. I thought he wanted to bring new poltics to the country.... I hope him and Michelle, are real proud of themselves, because of their arrogance, they have torn The Democratic Party in TWO. I hope McCain, crosses party lines, and ask Sen Clinton, to be his V.P...."
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html

#comment-131933

"...between BHO arogance and the hatred from people like you, i wouldn't vote for him if he personally asked me. so keep up the crap, if it makes you feel good, trust me it is not helping BHO get votes.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131978

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131979

In case I haven't mentioned it recently. I Love You.

"And the nation, the world and the future won't change for the better; we'll be left with more of the same.
Posted by: benjaminblue | August 23, 2008 5:01 PM"

B-blue -- that whole post makes little sense.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131979

What exactly did you consider a whine?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132002

Gordo

Get over it and go away. This is not the happy hunting ground for Clinton supporters switching to your chosen candidate.

The Repubs have a great new site:

OBAMA'S OFF-MESSAGE MAN

http://www.gop.com/obamasvp/

Lots of very damaging info. The Repubs don't have to lie - just use SoetorObama's "hidden" past and Biden's statements.

PUMA

God, I don
't know which is more dismal. Gordo's crying or Bye Bye's crying.

Alpha and Mister D

This is my favorite Lanston Hughes poem. He wrote many of SIGNIFICANCE, but this one is pure joy and pride. Now if both of you could step back politically and just celebrate.

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=177389

There is still a scenario in which Hillary can be at the top of the Dem ticket - even after a SoetorObama/Biden (SOB) ticket has been created. Can you figure it out? Need help?

PUMA

Gordo, did know that Viv had asked that you please email her ? She needs help with her computer. I have her email address if you missed her requests.

Gordo- the last time you left a clue , I didn't get it- It was 0-6,0-7. What are you referring to?

Some in Clinton circle 'outraged'
(CNN) — Evan as Hillary Clinton praised the newly-minted Democratic presidential ticket Saturday, some in her circle are furious Barack Obama did not appear to give the New York Democrat serious consideration for the No. 2 spot, or even ask for her consultation on the matter."

"They thought her supporters were mad before? They are really mad now," this person also said. We knew it was never going to happen but you would have thought they might at least make a show of it."
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Just following the pattern not the experience

"a unique talent for pushing buttons"

I think you over value him. I'd call it "a unique wiliness to be mean and say whatever he can to hurt and demean others". And as for the good side you talk about, maybe it's used to manipulate.

Love you Jamie, but I've read everything by Langston Hughes at least twice. From Simple to A Dream Deferred. Even been by the Schomberg where his ashes are buried. But thanks for the sentiment.

Chloe

As I said the "courtship phase'. I honestly don't think he realizes that he is mimicing this abuse of women model.

Maybe we can wake him up to the pathology.

No you can't Jamie.

who was asking about Mambo In Seattle in the travers. Came in Second. If bet across would have paid $11.40 for a $6.00 (two across) bet.

"But before I go, all of you who claim to care about women's rights should be thrilled to have Biden on the ticket, he's been a tireless advocate of woman's rights."

Thrilled-----hardly! Biden's ardent support of 2005 BAPCPA ( bankruptcy act) showed him to be anything but a tireless advocate of women's rights.

More & more women have been seeking the protection
of bankruptcy in recent years--in particular single women, with children, heads of household, usually low income earners--Biden's unwaivering support of the credit industry authored 2005 BAPCPA (bankruptcy act)--which has made it much more difficult for debtors to file, increased the costs to the debtor if they qualify at all--was certainly not something that a champion of women's rights would have voted for.

No, Mr. D., in my mind you like to stir things up and use us for laughs.

Wow, I see nothing has changed around here.....oh well. I wonder if after the GE anything will change?

Carry on.

Go Obama / Biden 2008!

Chloe,

In my best Phil Hartman doing Ed MacMahon: Yes!

And I don't particularly resent that either, Mr. D.
Because i don't think you're mean.

On a lighter note, just watched the medal ceremony for baseball. Korea, Cuba and the U.S., in that order. The Cubans weren't at all happy, but the U.S. team, after they got their bouquets got into the spirit of things. Thus endeth the lesson.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132024

Okay Mr. D, but did you get the idea? I've been getting ready for this nomination by reading W.E.B. DuBois.

I will vote for Obama over McCain. Do I think he is ready to be President? NO!!!! Emphatically NO !!!! All I can hope for is that he has one hell of a steep learning curve. Do I think he has EARNED it? NO. That is the problem

I can't vote for a Repubican and I could have voted for Obama as the bottom half of a ticket. As the top? Still voting Dem, but not liking it. Give me a reason to feel good about it

Did you see the Cuban athelete in Tae Kwon Do? He got disqualified for taking too much time after an injury. He got mad and kicked the ref in the head and pushed another guy. Got banned for life after that.

Jamie,
Do you think Obma is "smart" enough to be president?

You don't have to be smart to be president. GWB proved that!

sea --------------------------

Better clues:

O(2) + F(1) -> ?

O(2) + F(2) -> 4

O(1) + O(1) -> 6

O(1) + K( 1) -> 7

Do you think Obama has the ability for objective critical thinking at critical times, and do you think he has a substantial understanding of our constitution?

The only people not smart were the losers that voted for BUSH....we can not afford any more years like the Bush years.

Do you think Obama has the ability for objective critical thinking at critical times, and do you think he has a substantial understanding of our constitution?"

UB, of course he does!

But what's more important, what are his motivations.?
And who does he owe the most favors to.

got to go....going to the beach for sunset.......adios.

Go Obama / Biden 2008 !

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132025

And listening to someone with no understanding of winen ,,,

No way ypu can go there. I've met some who could, but you can/t sorry .............

Obama owes the most favors to the America public.....to our country....and to the world. Some one has to clean up the mess left by Bush and party.

If you think less of him you really should not vote for him- but McCain has absolutely nothing to offer for the betterment of our country. He's hot headed, trigger happy , and misguided. Even real republicans don't trust him....and are not voting for him.

sorry seriously leaving getting pulled away..........ciao

"In my best Phil Hartman doing Ed MacMahon"

Loved Phil Hartman

Shall we try "no experience of women"

I don't like slanted keyboards

Jamie,

I wish the Clintons would ask Maya Angelou to create a masterpiece that would help us through this morass.

Obama-Biden bumper magnets are available now -- interesting that Biden's name is so much smaller and less prominent than Obama's. Kerry Edwards were the same size, Clinton Gore were same size. Looks like Obama's putting Biden in his place -- makes me feel sorry for Joe Biden, attack dog on short leash.

drama queens shouldnt cast the name at anyone else, I mean, really......that's just too much drama

Jamie,

I wasn't trying to make a big deal about it but as predicted your math skews in her favor.

She's elected 11/00(US), so to date that gives her 8 yrs.
this Nov.

he got 7 yrs.from IL 97-04,and elected 11/04(US) which this Nov. will give him 4 more yrs. adds to 11 years for Obama by my math.

Rez

Still mate it up against state vs federal.

The point is that he is all we have got. We don't have to like it, but he is not ready to be prez. Let us hope that Biden is ready to be prez.

Both of them are better than McCain and company, but that doesn't mean that the US is better off.
I'm really worried about the
whoo
whoo children They don't have a clue about political campaigns

I don't agree with everything on this site or in Berg's lawsuit, but the thing to remember is that SoetorObama has a "hidden" past. His past is "hidden" because it has been scrubbed, documents withheld and MSM has decided to treat SoetorObama's writings and statements as fact.
=============================
"Republicans Can Hardly Wait for Dems to Take Obama Bait

As Tarpley points out, Obama has never won a real election contest; his way has always been smoothed by engineered scandals.

But this time the scandals are set to go the other way.

The Democrat National Committee has to be certified insane if they nominate Obama. There is no way he can beat "war hero" McCain with a ton of dirty laundry like this around his neck.

And even that pales beside the blamage, the loss of face for the Democrats if they nominate a candidate who is not even a US citizen, thus giving the election by default to the Republicans. That might be the final blow to what is left of the two-party system."

http://www.waronfreedom.org/dox/BONoUsCitizen.htm

Coreen -- I am troubled by the Biden support of he bankruptcy bill, McCain also supported it -- lock, stock and barrel. Obama voted against it.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132031

Hello from Denver. We had a fairly uneventful Rules Committee meeting today where we adopted a resolution dealing with 3 main topics. A 35 member Commission will be formed by the next DNC Chair next Spring.

The commission will discuss:
1. The primary/caucus schedule for 2012. The four early states will not hold their contests until Feb. The other states will start in March with no heavy front loading.
2. The role of the Super Delegates will be examined with an effort to reduce their numbers and put the nomination decision into the hands of the regular delegates.
3. More uniformity on how caucuses are run. At the moment there are various ways to implement a caucus. For many of the states that had caucuses for the first time this year, there were problems. The commission will also look at ways to give people who work or are out-of-state ways to participate. Personally, I think there are probably ways to accomplish this as long as it isn't abused.

Craig...sorry you are out in the boonies. I am within walking distance of the Pepsi center, Convention center, and everything else. Lots of police presence on the ped mall today. That 68 group (whatever it is) was practicing for their march to the Pepsi center tomorrow.

I enjoyed the show today...Biden will eventually get his speech honed to emit tons of sincerity.

I am always amazed when dems invoke the republican ghosts of Reagan and Lincoln. Yes, we can reach across the aisle, but no way will we reach out to the Clintons and their supporters. They are true enemy in this presidential race. : ) So much for change, another old white man who is not a economic genius nor a big South and Central American expert. Same old crap with the exception of mentioning Scranton, Pennsylvania a few times as Clinton supporter bait.

Jamie, Oh that's right I forgot to credit her for her student council years.:)

Hi Zoey

craig, any journalist in denver looking into who was in the streets outside the '68 convention but are inside the '08 hall and vice versa? where stand those aging firebrand youngins of yore? another '68/'08 irony is the heavy hand of chicago. see link re daley's teddy role.
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/conventions/chicago/facts/chicago68/index.shtml
also wonder how many of us crawdads were pissin' in or pissin' out of the tent back then and now have changed places.

thanks zoey......always a pleasure to read.....looking for more.......

"That 68 group (whatever it is) was practicing for their march to the Pepsi center tomorrow."
zoey, those may be these folks
http://www.recreate68.com/

", but I've read everything by Langston Hughes at least twice. From Simple to A Dream Deferred"

But did you capture the joy. That is what has always drawn me to Hughes.

Everything you post seems to be born of fear, hiding, and shame. Get up on your podium and preach love, warmth and pride That is the true black experience. It is the Alvin Ailey dancing. Stop the poor me and celebrate.

Yes patd, that is the group. I couldn't think of their name since I am nearly brain dead from the train ride here and then right into the rules meeting. I haven't had a nap yet. I will sleep when I am dead. There is just too much to do and see here.

Anyway, recreate 68 was holding combat training in one of the downtown parks today so their members will know what to do if they are grabbed by the cops tomorrow during their march. I can't decide whether to go watch the march or not. It is just a couple of blocks from my hotel.

Sturgeone,

You just haven't hit the right button yet. lol

Yeah, but. . .

On to the casino, got check out how the investment's doing. rofl

bbl

christianity
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
posted by H20storm on craigslist

ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha

Zooey

LOoking forward to your reports from the middle of the fray.

Let us know all.

It is very frustrating to hear Democrats saying they will not vote for Obama.

Given how close - and heartbreaking - the last two elections have been and the disastrous results that have followed. Without a good number of Clinton supporters - the Democrats are in real trouble.

It is frustrating because I think almost every person that supported Clinton in the primary not only respected her as a person - but also supported her policies. Now I know there are slight differences between Clinton and Obama.

(Indeed, despite the GOP attack that Obama went so far to the left to win the nomination and is a "scary liberal" - the two issues that stick out in my mind where they differed - Obama was more to the center - i.e., Clinton supported government mandates and vowed to begin withdrawing troop in 60 days "no matter what the generals on the ground say.")

Now these same Democrats are claiming that they don't care whether Obama wins and will be OK with a victory by McCain - who espouses policies - such as the Bush tax cuts and endless war in Iraq until some vague definition of "victory" is met - that run contrary to EVERYTHING Hillary Clinton believed in.

The policies of a President are driven by the party. Bush did not come up with his policies - he simply was the inarticulate mouthpiece. And those policies - which McCain has adopted to win his party's nomination - have placed this Country in a tailspin.

I simply do not see how a person that identifies themselves as a Democrat can be indifferent to a Republican getting elected to the White House who will:

-Appoint S. Ct. judges that will tilt the balance of the Court in fundamental and lasting ways

-Will continue the war in Iraq and likely start a war with Iran that will cost even more American blood and treasure

-Will continue the Bush tax cuts - ignoring the plight of the middle class and our rising deficit

-Will rely on the "free market" to fix our broken healthcare system

-Will place environmental issues second to our addiction to foreign oil

I don't think Hillary Clinton is indifferent to another 4 years of those policies. And I don't think you should be either.

Warren,

What it comes down tow is that all of the Hillary supporters have got to forgive all of the media slams against their candidate. They have to forgive all the MSM slams agaisnt their client. They have to forgive all the blog comment slams against their client. They have to forgive the winning candidate against their client.

YOu lift the burden and declare yourself Democrat and say I WILL vote for this person. Excuse me but that is a big burden to lift

Obama got respect from daddy with Biden, but his anger with Mommy is not yet resolved. and trust me , she is still pissed.

For those who missed it, here's Zoey's rendition of "...just one more cow." For those newbies out there, you kind of had to be there, but it involved Father Crawford, Don Imas, and RFD-TV about 2 o'clock one morning...

I assume we might see some convention blogging with pix if Zoey can 1) stay out of jail, and/or 2) remain sober enugh to write something intelligible...

http://zoeyadventures.blogspot.com/

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132080

We all must look for cows.

Jamie:

I agree that I think one of the hardest things about this campaign was how the idiots in the MSM treated Clinton.

This was a bitter and hard fought campaign. There were plenty of times when I was outraged at Clinton and her campaign. But I believe those feelings are inevitable when a race goes on so long with the 24/7 media cycle where everything is amplified - especially the negativity. And I have cringed right along with Clinton supporters at some of the stupid, hurtful and counterproductive comments made on this blog by Obama supporters. In fact, I was much harsher when I first came on this blog because I saw "you people" as the enemy. But after spending so much time here I realized Clinton supporters were anything but the enemy - rather they were people who share the very same vision for America I have - but chose to support a different candidate.

Now of course it is easy for me to say now - but I truly believe that I would have supported Clinton whole-heartedly against the GOP becuase I think it is critical for a Democrat to win this year.

Jamie --I have so much respect and regard for you, but may I gently suggest that it's a little presumptuous for a white person to declare what is and what is not the "true black experience?" The fact is, we can't know what Mr. D's experience has been. Black people have every right to be very angry at the white establishment. The very establishment of Alvin Ailey's Dance Company is due to the fact that the white ballet companies -- even in "enlightened" NYC -- were not open to black dancers. As a mother, I did not have to brief my sons on the risks of riding four to a car, or driving while black, but black parents I know do have to warn their sons about the risks of interactions with police. The fact remains that we are still a country with more black men in jail than in college. And the judicial system is not as fair as we'd like to believe.

Joe Biden used to I heart Imus used to...

Integrity comes with a price tag Joe, and it takes more then just "Change"

One time Joe Biden thought Imus was the best thing since sliced bread the next he won't appear on his program...oh Joe how many things have you said, you wish you hadn't...did he apologize? Imus did, Odd how Imus can't be forgiven, especially by those who sang his praises before and availed themselves to his format. I don't think it is outrage, I think it is all political and it SHOWS have a look here.

http://imustimes.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/imus-senator-biden-on-the-phone/

Warren,

You will do whatever you think you shourld do.

I hope you will vote dem.

My problem is much worse. A;ll of my life I have been liftiing up and hoping for. I have been weeping tears and carrying the burden.

These JOnny come lately saying they know what they know. Spare me your anger. I've been there done that

I'm sorry but my tears count for more than your agenda

Alicia,

Know that I have TREMENDOUS respect for your comment. It is absolutely smart, considerate and thoughtful. I applaud you for it.

Want to know why some Hillary supporters will NEVER support SoetorObama? And will do everything possible to defeat him - then watch this documentary preview. Go to link for VIDEO.
========================
“We Will Not Be Silenced”

"I invite you to watch the preview to this documentary, about which the authors said this:

This documentary is about the disenfranchising of American citizens by the Democratic Party and the Obama Campaign. We the People have made this film. Democrats have sent in their stories from all parts of America. We want to be heard and let the country know how our party has sanctioned the actions of what we feel are Obama campaign “Chicago Machine” dirty politics. We believe this infamous campaign of “change” from Chicago encouraged and created an army to steal caucus packets, falsify documents, change results, allow unregistered people to vote, scare and intimidate Hillary supporters, stalk them, threaten them, lock them out of their polling places, silence their voices and stop their right to vote, which is, of course, all documented in “We Will Not Be Silenced.”

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/23/we-will-not-be-silenced/

PUMA

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132075

Bethy,
I am so sorry to hear that you let the things you read here bother you so much. You will be much happier if you can skip through some of it, and to realize that some people, like Nick today, sound like they have an agenda that we're not privy to. So please try to not take it too seriously. Because, as you know, there are some who do not mind inflicting pain.

Thanks for that post. You're always so generous in sharing what you're feeling with all of us, and I, for one, very much appreciate it.

Beware of those in whom the instinct to punish is strong.
--FWNietzsche

Hear, hear, Bethy!

Hey warren......like your postes......ya know......you'd get a lot further with your talk about law and justice and decency and a better world if you could just convince Liberty Valence and his "Art-of-War" sidekick to stay out of Dodge..........so to speak.

Warren -- I, for one, have missed you. But after being called a racist old hag one too many times on behalf of Barack Obama, I'm not in the mood to sing Kumbaya. Let me ask you this, what's the difference between the sexists who support McCain and those who continually use abusive, sexist language on behalf of the DNC candidate?

What I see is a general disdain for women all around, and an underlying desire to silence the female voice.

Bye Bye continually whines that whites can't understand blacks. I say then, that no man speaks for me.

maybe you could let someone in the obama camp know to monitor this site for a bit and see what these yahoos are doing in his name.......uh oh......what if he APPROVES of what they're doing.......that's scary......

I think I just startled myself........lol

Patsi. You're so right!
That works both ways.

You know........if the atmosphere here were not made so rancid by the tarantulous ones.......I bet Craig knows a LOT of people who would come here and talk.......Helen Thomas? Probably many more......but who's going to come to such a snake pit as this has been? No-body.

It's downright staggeringly ugly to know what this place could be, has been before but very much is what it is now and no more.

Patsi,

If Obama had picked Claire McCaskell, would she have been able to speak for you?

I find it funny that you now find religion and say that a man can't speak for you, HOWEVER, get all upset when I tell you that Bill Clinton as the "black president" never spoke for the black community.

Sturge,
In spite of it all, it's still a good place.

so much to read, so little time
ya'll got some good heartfelt stuff here tonight.
but, being a fifty-something female that has been thru hell in a handbasket, delt with an abussive husband, sexist, vulgar grouping male employers...it will be a cold day in hell when i start forgiving the crap i have seen and heard this election cycle. don't tell me about the 'new democratic party' that's bull.
i never see the nastyness coming from clinton supporters, its always from the BHO people. if everybody is so happy, what are they pissed about?
puma

Mr. D,
For an intelligent man, you sure don't understand much.

Nelson Decker,
me too.

Chloe,

Just follow the argument. It's pretty simple.

Your version is.

Patsi:

There is no difference.

But there is a difference in the direction Obama will take this Country versus the direction McCain will take it.

Jamie:

I can't argue with anything you say (as usual ; )

sturg:

Wish I could actually have an impact on that front. It only takes a few snide comments to take the whole blog in a different direction.

I learned that lesson after coming here at first and trying to zap the spirit of anyone that took a different view. I realized I was not changing any minds and instead only making things worse (and getting myself all worked up in the process).

Patsi -- I am having an on-going discussion (actually it's kind of a fight) with some friends of mine about the need to support women candidates. This is a group of women who are active DEMs and NOW members. We get together every week for lunch. We also make some of our lunches fundraisers for women candidates. We haven't had a woman run in our area for the last three years, so we've donated to women running outside our district. Now there is a man who is running for Congress in our district and he seems to be a nice enough fellow, probably supportive of women's issues, although there is nothing on his website to indicate this. Anyway, Senator Vance Hartke's daughter, Anita Hartke, is also running for Congress in VA. She is running against a powerful GOP incumbent, Eric Cantor, who is sometimes mentioned as VP choice for McCain. Well, I would like my women's group to raise money for her, but some of them are saying we should support the male candidate who is running in our district.

My point is to my women's group is we need to do what we can to elect more women. If women are not elected, we are not at the table. If women are not at the table, we're far less likely to make an impact on the decision-making of the men. We are left to trust that they will try their best to represent us, that they will deign to include us and what level of responsibility they will let us have.

Aside........
played the piano at a large party last saturday night......long version of "Anchors Aweigh" and the Marine Hymn........"Wild Blue Yonder" because the color guard was borrowed from the air force base....the star spangled banner, of course.....then the band joined me and we played big band, 50's and 60's dance music........it was for veterans of having served on the USS Forrestal..........a very poignant gig........

"If Obama had picked Claire McCaskell, would she have been able to speak for you?"

Does OJ speak for you?

Hey bye bye.......do justice thomas and condi rice speak for you?

Warren - What a wonderful post! I have noticed a difference in you lately, and am thrilled that you've found ...what?...a spot?...a place?.... where you can see both sides. I also saw things in both campaigns that I didn't like. While I still think Hillary would do a better job, she can't beat McCain now because Obama has to do it. I've never particularly liked the people I've voted for because I don't know them. I vote the politics of it. I'm not as angry as some, but believe me, I've learned a lesson. Maybe the dnc has learned one, too, but I doubt it. Thanks for your post.

I didn't like Obama's campaign and don't like how they're doing it now cuz I'm afraid they're gonna lose it.
If they do I foresee more Scalia's and Alito's and Thomas's. The thought of 9 right-to-lifers is chilling.

Chloe - don't worry about me. I exercise my knothead rights all the time. Nick did seem to lighten up a bit, too. It's just that the lecturing and judgement being posted is like a nuclear winter. It is dark and gloomy and filled with ugly emotion and violence in the air. It is deathly. It is like heavy German cooking.
It is so depressing that breathing is not easy - that's the atmosphere here when we are being lectured and insulted.

Those of who who backed Hillary are unhappy, and we gonna stay unhappy, and we want to talk about it some, and we will. That's a fact.

MrD - I have a point to make about your statement that the women for Hillary are especially angry that she lost to a black man and that is egregious. My point is that since you are not a woman, you can't possibly know how women feel. There are men who backed Hillary, too, but they are mostly white so the point applies for them as well. Of course, Jason is black, but I suspect he will deny you the right to speak for him

That was an egregious thing for you to say, MrD, really really wrong.

all things considered, if there is a majority dem in the house and senate mccain can't do much.
well, that is if the dems actually show some backbone.

" I realized I was not changing any minds and instead only making things worse (and getting myself all worked up in the process)."

Warren, I promise you -- you never made anything worse. I may have disagreed with some of what you said, but you were always intelligent and respectful.

" If women are not elected, we are not at the table. If women are not at the table, we're far less likely to make an impact on the decision-making of the men. We are left to trust that they will try their best to represent us, that they will deign to include us and what level of responsibility they will let us have. "

Exactly, Alicia. And trust me on this -- we are NOT at the table, except for scraps.

Maybe much of the bitterness stems from individual experiences, such as Nelson Decker pointed out....and while that is all good and well, the reality is..... there are only two choices for President.

Vote whichever matches your beliefs closest.

If, say a group of women, want to take on the media, then they should form a group and become active. Change doesn't come without effort.

Everyone should be conrtributing to get rid of Eric Cantor
What a creep and he hangs around with that ultimate creepy character Patrick McHenry. The government would be better without that crew.

Sturg -- "played the piano at a large party last saturday night"

I had that same gig when I was in the Army Band. WWII veteran's gigs were always the best (they also went home pretty early)...

With all the justification he'd ever need Craig could monitor this comment section and alter it's content....but with a faith comparable to that of the founding fathers he has developed a completely free Hand's off, No censorship policy.....(Crooksandliars deletes 9/11 conspiracy talk, for instance) He opts instead for adult SELF censorship.......I cant begin to imagine the embarrassment he must feel, as hard as he has worked to get where he is and the pride he obviously takes in his work, at the nature of the comments on this blog..........and yet it rolls on, free of restraint despite all the reasons to restrain the hell out of it.......

Craig is on tv..now MSNBC

these guys hung till eleven......a large contingent got their fair share of "country" music.........lol

Craig is a grown up. Once you start censorship, there no longer is free speech. I applaud Craig for his stance on non- censorship, however, I disagree with his stance on anonymous postings.

Hi KGC!

Yes it would be good to send Eric Cantor into the private sector!

Here is Anita Hartke's website -- http://www.hartkeforcongress.com/

For those of you in the DC area, Anita is having a reception at the Mayflower Hotel with John Kerry on Sept. 24. at 7:00 pm. Details are on the website.

In July 1967, Forrestal departed Norfolk for duty in waters off Vietnam. In the Gulf of Tonkin on 29 July, Forrestal had been launching aircraft from her flight deck. For four days, the planes of Attack Carrier Air Wing 17 flew about 150 missions against targets in North Vietnam from the ship. On July 29, 1967, during preparation for another strike, a Zuni rocket misfired, knocking off an external tank on another aircraft. Fuel from the leaking tank caught fire creating a massive conflagration that burned for hours, killing 134, injuring 161, destroying 21 aircraft and costing the Navy $72 million.[3]

But Sturge, that's the choice Craig has made.
He seems to have given it a lot of thought, and has chosen not to change the rules.

Alicia
Thanks for posting the web site.
Cantor is a first class creep. I hope she beats him and I hope she makes him spend a lot of money!

hmmm.......I applaud the choice Craig has made.....it's why I'm still here........I may not have been clear because i lost the post once and tried a re-write......I am 100% behind Craig and any way he wants to run it is fine with me........

I wish the comments would measure up to his faith, and the level of his station in media......(mine included)

Off to dinner but I haven't watched MSNBC in months and watched today for reporting on the Obama Biden event.
Just a bad as always.

what's for dinner, Kit?

UB - everyone IS voting for whoever is closest to their beliefs. That's the problem - some people aren't happy about others' beliefs.

As for women getting organized, they are and the next four years are going to brutal I think both parties are going to have to up-date. Neither party is united and if people who are unhappy will flat stop sending money and send complaints, the parties will have to adjust.

I'm an Independent and wouldn't have it any other way.

This all isn't over,and that may sound like a threat, it isn't - it's just a prediction

Bethy,
I think women have a lot of power, basically the power of the pocket book....if they organize well, they should be able to gain some ground...Unfortunately....unless it is a well publicized campaign--- it will fizzle.

I also have to say I thought a lot of ground was gained by Hillary's run. Not everyone in our country was glued to the tv....So I think we should b proud of how far she got, and then look at the ALL other elements in play.ie the media, her staff, timing...etc.

Hey spike......when were you in the army band.....if in the early sixties before nam, did you know a sax player from SC (who once got to play with mussolini's son on piano) ha ha I've told that one before......I know, long shot with a limb in the way, but you never know........

Spent a few hours with my Mom tonight. Got to talk more about things with her. She said the nights are long now. She has now received over 60 cards. People have been amazing lately. We watched the Tigers baseball and some Laurel & Hardy, also caught the end of Craig tonight. bethyboo, I'm glad I'm an independent, too. My sister is a registered Republican. I like the freedom in being an independent voter.

I watched a good bit of Haurel and Lardy myself......whatta coupla goofs......

Im a REALLY independent voter.......my fellow carolinians have removed for me any reason to care about for whom I might vote...........

I'll just sit here on this bank of sand and watch the river flow........

"Sons of the Dessert" a classic flick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nViPOfr1MeU

rivers flowing

“Just make sure you have black skin before you reserve a room. You can't understand what it means to be black just by watching Cosby”
MD
That is true and it is a point you need to consider before you get any deeper.
But this isn’t some hair fine nuanced issue. It is a complete miss on a phrase that any AA adult should understand.
You made a really strange comment to Patsi, I copied it below.
“BTW, "house negro" is accurately used in associating with slavery. I never said this situation had anything to do with slavery.”
Basic fact
The term "house negro", often pronounced by AA’s as “house Ni**er”, (as far as I know used only by AAs) has its roots in slavery but modern usage has little to do with slavery.
The modern use of the phrase has a social hierarchy use; usually with lower class AA’s expressing distain for their wealthier AA neighbors.
The other is as an intramural political attack, which claims their opponents are in bed with the white establishment.
This speech by Malcolm X gives a very good back ground on the term from its slavery days and a great example of the political use of the term.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zUIjP4KWok

Another example of the political usage by Reverend Al

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdVjrBY5-F0

So MD why so far off the mark on this one?

Jack

"house negro" roughly translatable as "company man" for a different image on the same theme........

Not that it matters - but I have no idea how anyone believes they " know " what it is like to live in someone else's shoes.

Jack,

Oh Jack. You have some weird need to evaluate my blackness. But I'll take the time to explain, since you're confused.

The modern usage of house negro and field negro STEMS from the notion that during slavery, field negroes were the ones receiving the most brutal aspects of slavery, while house negroes where more privileged (which historically is untrue). The idea was that being closer to the master meant that the house negro began to think in the master's interest. So you have Malcolm's explanation that he was a field negro, in that he was an independent thinker in contrast with civil rights leaders, who he considered (at the time) house negroes.

Now to Patsi wrong assumption. My example was neither centered around the topic of slavery or the characterization of the black person in the house as a compliant "house negro". Instead, the characterization was of the motivations of the WHITE benefactor and how their perception of the relationship gave them comfort when it came to race relations. Nothing in my example gave any explanation or characterization of how the BLACK person actually viewed the relationship. If I'd said that the black cook felt they were family because of this false relationship, you'd have an argument about the black cook being a "house negro". But that's not the case. Instead, that's the assumption you and Patsi made because you didn't think to consider that the black person in the example may not have the same perspective as the white person making the decision. Hence, Patsi immediately leaps to the simplistic notion that the black person in my example is a "house negro".

There. I thought you guys were intelligent enough to understand a very simple example. Perhaps this reinforces my notion that when you assume to understand black people by reading a few books, or taking a few classes, you get the Cliff Notes version of who we are.

Md

Just as I thought, You can't explain your completely wrong definition of the phrase.

Swing miss. Better luck next time.
It is puzzling though.

Jack

I come close UB.......in 1942 my old man moved smack into the middle of a gullah community on a sea island in SC.........I was born there in 48...........that's where I grew up........my friends and playmates were my neighbors, and when I was in (segregated) schools (which I have never been able to understand, after having read the declaration of independence) I looked forward to being out of school and home with my friends....... Nothing has changed since then.......I like to think I played some small part in changing the outlook of the south towards race and race relations.....

I had a mammy.........she's still alive at 96.......she leased her land to a huge grocery store chain and is now worth millions........and I still cant go by her house without being forced to eat a piece of fresh sweetened
cornbread.......
I shared the life they led.........I know a lot about it and them.......my parents were fairly ignorant folk from alabama and mississippi and never did get it, but I did.

BTW Jack,

Let's not use Wikipedia to understand black folks. Just ask a question.

UB -- Nobody on this blog EVER said they KNEW what blacks feel, except for the AA's who spoke. And Jason only spoke for himself.

I don't pretend to speak for all feminists. But regarding this post of yours: "Change doesn't come without effort."

I must say it stuns me. Many of us worked through the late 60s and 70s for women of your generation. Don't presume to tell me about organizing. Just be glad some of us gave a damn.

"Perhaps this reinforces my notion that when you assume to understand black people by reading a few books, or taking a few classes, you get the Cliff Notes version of who we are"

MD

At this point with the very bad mistake you made I believe this discribes YOU not any one else on this blog. You made a serious error with your persona.

time for you to abandon this one and rebuild under another set of names.

Jack

Hey Sturge,

I respect your life experience, but could please not use the term "mammy". It's disrespectful. My grandmother cooked for a white family in South Texas for thirty years, often missing our family meal, and she resents it to this day. Calling her a "mammy" denigrates every black woman who were nurses, cooks and servants and is not a term of endearment.

Okay Jack.

Bethy
What you write means so much to me! I hope you never get so upset and go away,that would be a huge loss for all.That has happened this week with Viv..Sad! I get all happy when I see your post's,I always know its you.Keep them coming cause you really help here!!

"Just ask a question"

MD
As you were clueless about the term "house negro"
I think I will pass.
I prefer geting my information from someone with demonstrated knowledge. And that my man isn't you.

Jack

sturgee...here's a long interview featuring your buddy, Mussolini's son...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31O2Q2o8q_g

sorry MD........but that is a direct quote from my mammy.........she's still my mammy closer to me than my mother......it was a term in use and with all the other terms being bandyed about here I think it's a fairly innoccuous one......but if you'll try to modify some of your nasty behavior, I'll make a point of not using the term....but......

I used the term on purpose.......it's the only word which describes what this remarkable woman was to me and how she's played in my life.....I use it proudly.......she considered herself and still does consider herself my mammy.......as I consider myself her son.........

Sturge,

Mammy is an offensive term, regardless of who says it.

Mr.D
I believe you be a very smart person, but why does everything with you have to be about race?I really am curious not trying to slam you,so please don't take offense....

Sturg...
>>On July 29, 1967, during preparation for another strike, a Zuni rocket misfired, knocking off an external tank on another aircraft.

If memory serves correctly, the Zuni hit John McCain's plane..

I was in at the end of Nam. Never got the opportunity to go in-country, but guys coming back said it was the best tour they ever had. Four day work weeks, hootches with running water right on the beach, marines guarding the band (who lived with the Generals -- one of the perks)....My how times have changed.

Tony,

Great question. The answer is that I don't think everything is about race. Not at all. It's just in this particular forum, we have a bunch of people who are ill informed not just on race, but sexism, gay and lesbian issues, poverty, regionalism, etc. What I try to do is provide a perspective on race (black and white issues) that isn't the normal comfortable discussion where we all hug and say it'll be alright. There are difference, big differences, and it's okay to say that. What I like to do is argue my point and see what's the reaction. For example, Sturge calls the black woman who cared for him mammy. That is so valuable in understanding who he is, and I don't necessarily means that to be a negative, and where we are today. But if we don't have these discussions, things like this don't come out.

I must say that I do find the visceral anger that comes from non African Americans when they're told that 'hey, you really don't know us' is intriguing. I know there's that great American ideal that colorblindness is the equalizer and that we're just all the same. But in reality, there are difference that are not tied to inferiority and superiority, but to culture, experiences, needs, and yes, politics. The more conversations we have, even if they create heat, is a good thing. It always seems like discussions like these are nasty affairs, but in reality, they're not. It's just democracy at work.

Spike,

If you know, with the millions in service during Vietnam, what was the actual percentage of military personnel who did combat tours? Was it high or low? Just trying to get a fix on troops in the field.

MD.....what If I were to consider being less offensive and you kept right on being a jerk......I'd feel like a noodge.......Show me the less offensive, MD.......then we'll talk.......and Mammy is offensive to YOU.....it's not offensive to me or my mammy.........or her sons, my brothers........

but like I said.....I'll take your word for it.......show me something, dude......

or not.......as you will.......

Dex........tu parle muchissississimo..........uno situatione bono

me gusto mucho.......

Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Back to Back Gaffes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PEP45coas0

========================

"Can someone get these guys some name tags or something? Seems to be some confusion about names and titles.

I would love the job of having to create ads for McCain. The Democrats are turning out to be the gift that keeps on giving. Hell, you don’t even have to be too creative. This **** writes itself.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/08/23/president-biden-meet-barack-american/

ha ha.......just when things get a tad too maudlin, you can depend on Gordo to swing in on a vine with some crazy shit.............

""Perhaps this reinforces my notion that when you assume to understand black people by reading a few books, or taking a few classes, you get the Cliff Notes version of who we are"

Complete BS. Maybe you should work on getting over your writer's block and quit trying to represent Black America.

I loved richard pryor in that superman movie.....that was one funny man........

"Mammy is an offensive term, regardless of who says it. "

And you think "I Got 99 Problems But a Bitch Ain't One" isn't? You are a phony and a disgrace.

If you know ANY strong black women and tried to run your number I'd be surprised.

Sturge -- I know you to be a wise and sensible man. Could you perhaps try to hear what Mr. D is saying? The word "mammy" is a loaded word because it is an archetype of black women created by the dominant white culture. It is symbolic of the way whites pretended that the relationship they had with the people they oppressed was equal, when it was not equal.

Mr. D described in a very clear way the pain of his family as a result of his grandmother's employment as a cook for a white family. The life of a black person working as a domestic was honorable work but the truth is it was underpaid, the employee worked long hours with no benefits (other than toting home leftovers and cast-offs), and often times at the expense of their own family life. It was easy for whites to regard these workers as family so they could justify not paying them like employees.

Do you think you can find another way to refer to the woman who you love and regard as your second mother in a way that does not offend? And no, in case we do not get to say what is or is not offensive.

alicia......i used the word on purpose......I know both what you are saying and know well as rain what MD is saying......as well as I know what I am saying.....

words mean something. words can hurt or words can heal.

Biden say he doesn't want to be vice president.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9asFrls4mws

"must say that I do find the visceral anger that comes from non African Americans when they're told that 'hey, you really don't know us' is intriguing. I know there's that great American ideal that colorblindness is the equalizer and that we're just all the same."

This is why I believe you are basically stupid. NOBODY ever said any of this crap. You made this entire straw black man up and have sucked off it for months.

OBVIOUSLY blacks share a common vision that whites don't "get."

Here's the problem -- many peoples share something that others don't "get."

Here's what my friend that you called a liar said: "Yeah, he and I are black. But I'll bet he isn't raising three kids alone and without nobody nowhere helping. So he can't tell us about THAT."

Mr.D
Thankyou! I have a lot to think about here..I have had long term relationships with 2 black men and I must say I have witnessed with my own eyes and heart some of the struggles of black men in are society.Does that mean I know what it feels like to be black,No.I still don't think racial division is good! I wouldn't trade the value of those men and there impact on my life for anything...

Alicia, I understamd what you are saying to sturge. But I also know that when someone of an ethnic group tells you in no uncertain terms what they consider a proper term, it becomes odd to dismiss their belief. My son's friends in high school got on my ass for calling blacks AA's. They thought it was a bogus term. And whether they were right or wrong (it wasn't my judgement to make) I still have a hard time using AA's.

Tom Lehrer chimes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY&feature=related

"The more conversations we have, even if they create heat, is a good thing. It always seems like discussions like these are nasty affairs, but in reality, they're not. It's just democracy at work. "

I do agree with Bye Bye on this. Absolutely.

may I tom lehrer also?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs&feature=related

beg pardon, one more......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScdJURKGWM&feature=related

who is going to be the first political cartoonist to have Obama sitting on bidens lap?

oliphant

Tony,

For about two years, I was the lead reporter in a community that has a significant gay and lesbian population. I knew NOTHING about gay/lesbian/transgender etc. issues before I started reporting, but educated myself via folks in the community and my own observations. But I always reminded myself to never think that because you know a little about the gay community, that you suddenly know all and everything. And that's the tact I take through life. Be clear about the POV of African Americans. Listen to what people say about their communities. Try to understand the common areas and the differences.

Sturg -- couldn't agree with you more...

"It's downright staggeringly ugly to know what this place could be, has been before but very much is what it is now and no more."

Personally, I believe a prerequisite to post on this list should be a seminar from the Character Counts people. If it works for elementary school kids, there's a slim chance it might work here...

http://josephsoninstitute.org/flash-movie/Element_Middle.html

Patsi
I'm reminded of when I worked at a juvenile correction detention center for 2 years in the early nineties. One of the men that worked with us was AA from a wealthy Saint Louis suburb. One night he invited an AA high school friend to come see the place and meet the boys. After we put the boys to bed we sat and talked. He just shook his head in disbelief at some of the things he saw and heard. His world and the young inner-city youth’s world were totally different. Sure there were small cultural things that were similar. The way they joked around and other things. But he didn’t understand these boys much better than I did.
He just kept shaking his head and saying, ” It’s not like that where we come from”.

Jack

Patsi -- The context in which BO used Jay-Z's song was not appropriate or in any way becoming.

However, "99 Problems" is on my playlist, because of it's political statement and it's not about Hilary Clinton. It's about the difficulty of being a black man in America, even if you are successful and drive a nice car, you can still be pulled over by the cops for going "55 in a 54 zone," being made to step out of the car, submit to a search, etc. This is a hassle that black men, especially young black men, go through every single day. Can you imagine living like that -- knowing that every time you drive your car, you could get pulled over by the cops and hassled and humiliated?

" I knew NOTHING about gay/lesbian/transgender etc. issues before I started reporting,"

Sounds like a GREAT assignment for you then....

Patsi: Queen of the Non sequitur

"Barack Hussein Obama’s choice for his VP spot is so predictable and ludicrous ...

It bluntly confirms what everybody knows; that Obama is utterly CLUELESS about foreign policy (even though he had the ‘cojones’ to say that said subject was his “strongest suit”).

Because of this cluelessness, he has been forced to pick a man who has lost every single attempt at his party’s nomination, just to make the case that he finally has somebody to “help him out”.

Biden is an old dog of Washington, which then defeats the ENTIRE premise for Obama’s run. Is this really “change we can believe in” and “new politics”?

... Biden has been notorious in his criticisms of Obama and other similarly ‘junior’ candidates.

The entire spectacle looks like a joke, when the only person who could effectively engage McCain is the VP candidate, while the head of the ticket is remains an irresponsible, corrupt, inexperienced and arrogant fool."

http://savagepolitics.com/?p=1553

Ah Patsi, unlike you, I took the time to learn. There's the difference.

Perhaps MD could explain mis peachez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA88lEZJBdY

BTW Jack,

I'm curious about something. You seem to have an idea that poor African American, wealthy African American, rural, urban, suburb, lower educated and highly educated African Americans are not part of the same community or culture. Is that what you believe? Or do you have a gradient scale by which you judge true African Americaness with Allen Iverson a 10 and Kobe Bryant a 6? Just asking...

Alicia, then why use the word "bitch"? If I wrote a song about abusive men and used a racial term for that man I would be crucified.

"I took the time to learn"

MD

learning requires listening not a talent you have demonstrated very often around here.

Jack

Ah Jack, there's where you're wrong. I actually do listen. Really I do. But you all are so obsessed with countering Mr. Democrat, that you skip over the places where I demonstrate that I'm reading and listening to what you all say. But you have to actually say something worth something in order for me to not knock it down.

Alicia has two posts that are absolutely on point. She doesn't have to be a fan of my posts for me to acknowledge that. I listened to Tony. I listened to Spike. But you, Jamie and Patsi aren't interested in anyone listening. You all just want to, no need, to stand in the middle of the room and bang on a pan in order to get attention. Cool. But don't fault me if your posts are getting the responses you'd like. Write more intelligent posts.

And with that, time for me to get some ice cream.

Bye Bye -- I realize that your mission is to create divisions. That you HATE the fact that people have friends who are not the "same" as them. But I refuse to allow you to make me believe that races, religions and tribes can't interact in better ways than you promote.

But I will say one more thing to you Bye -- years ago when I worked with an all-black crew, and every one of us was scratching for a living, we had more in common than you, with someone supporting you. You may be black, but you don't know those guys.

Couldn't resist...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA8g1O1obOI

For her work with "an all-black crew" I hereby dub Patsi an honorary African American.

MD

The problem is your isolated ignorance of what you describe as the African American community. It is like you are a character on the Cosby show. You have demonstrated no knowledge of urban poor or working class African Americans. All you spout is text book style cliches. From what I can tell you have never been out in the neighborhood. You may be able to fool some people but to those of us who live here it is plain. Just like your silly statement that "house negro" only applied to slavery. I don't even make a pretense of being all knowing on AA culture and that just jumped out with a big "WTF?".
So it is time to get real. Be who you are not some great expert at everything. because you can't carry the load.

Jack

I decline, Bye Bye. Although my friend June Bug might disagree. You would hate him and he'd hate you.

Patsi

I take it from the nickname that Junebug has a few years on you.

Jack

Jack -- never try to reason with a man whose wife supports him. He's already pissed off.

The truth is, Bye Bye only knows blacks in what he considers his own "class." He doesn't know those who have spent time in prison on bogus charges or anything else. He's like Alf -- only worried that his kids get into the right schools.

I worked with a guy who was Mexican. He was very proud of the fact that he was born in Mexico. He often told 2 women at work that they were not real Mexicans because they were born in Michigan, not Mexico like him. That always pissed them off.

Jack,

I just don't understand you. You seem to need a "urban poor or working class African American" test to prove blackness. Let's see if I fit the bill: My parents didn't go to college. My grandfather was a preacher, so I grew up in the black church. My neighborhood was 99 percent black. It's an inner city neighborhood that can best be classified as lower middle class/working class. Is that enough? Or is it because I can think that you have this notion that this is an impossibility? That only Cosby kids are capable of having both a continuous tie to the community, education and intelligence, and all others are imposters within their race. That's pretty sad thinking, even for your Jack.

Here's a bit of information. There are Cosby kids and there are Good Times kids. And there are millions of black kids in between. But they're all African American. So keep searching for whatever you're searching for.

" there's where you're wrong. I actually do listen. Really I do. But you all are so obsessed with countering Mr. Democrat,"

Then why not pick a "real" name not associated with Bye Bye or Mr. D. Get a key and enter as a human being. Those are the people I deal with virtually every day. Shuffle and deal. Talk about the children. Listen to the problems with IRS, home care, hospice etc.

Where do you live? Where I am the skin colors come in all shades and the hugs and kisses are non denominational. Where do you get yours.

Patsi,

I bet you've told friends that you have a black friend named Junebug at every chance you get.

Corey

One thing I learned working with the youth is that we all have hot buttons that are culturally related. I often could work with the black boys easier than the white boys, where as It was just the other way around for my Black coworkers.

Jack

"In my class"? is that a polite way to say I'm uppity? Point to a place where I've ever said that I'm above other African Americans, particularly those in prison? I'll wait...

Good try Jamie, but it's not going to happen.

That's why you are basically a putz, Bye Bye. Junebug likes his name. You just don't. You don't get anyone out of your "class" -- which is sort of the American version of Eurotrash.

Actually, Bug wasn't my best friend from that job. My best friend was my work partner. A better man that you.

Patsi -- 99 Problems also has a lot of other profanity. Cussin' and using bad language is kind of a signature of some rap artists.

The subjugation of women is a common theme in modern music. However, this particular song is not about women at all. It's about racial profiling.

Psst...Patsi...Junebug is not a particularly unusual name in the African American community. My family, shockingly, has a Junebug. And there you go reading my posts with beer goggles again. I never said I didn't lik the name. I just made a snarky remark about you telling all your friends about knowing someone with that name. So again, you read what you want. And as for your best friend being a better man than me, who knows? I don't know him and you don't know me. Tomato. ToMAHto. Let's call the whole thing off!

All I'm saying about that work experience is this, Bye Bye -- I certainly didn't then and don't now know those men's experience. My partner just was out of prison after ten years on a murder charge. He had been in a bar fight and was convicted. OBVIOUSLY I don't know his black experience or his prison experience. But we didn't by God hate each other, which is what I think you want to happen between races.

Mr. D

I'm starting to think that you are not black at all. Just some kid pretending just for the fun of it all.

We have real people in our lives. They have families. We know them and care about them. I hunt for attorneys to assist with mortgages so that they can get out from under having to live with a loved one who has to be lifted from place to place.

We cook dinners. We care fro grandchildren. We have real, honest to god human beings who are part of our lives.

You come in here without knowing anything about anybody and accuse us of racism or at best not really knowing thise people.... these human beings.

Get off your high horse and tell me you have ever wrapped at heroic black mans burned legs with bandages because he was afraid of going to a doctor despite having saved the lives of two women, I have.

Sorry. You are a phony. Get back to me when you have lived a life.

Alicia -- I do understand what the song is about. I'm just asking why "bitch" is a part of it. If it's all about profiling, then talk about pig cops, not women.

Patsi, I don't think people hate each other. In fact, I don't think people necessarily dislike each other. But I do think people have interests and those interests conflict.

Remember the halcyon times when we were all talking about how great it was to have an African American candidate, a woman candidate and a bunch of white men? It seemed great because each group thought that the other would be fine when their candidate won. But when the candidates began pressing all of the same buttons that typical candidates push to beat the other, then those interests began to conflict. Now, we have Clintonites who'll vote against their own interests in order to prove a point. Does that constitute hate between white women (predominately the PUMA crowd) and African Americans? Nah, just extreme annoyance on both sides. And that's like life. Black people are annoyed (and amused I must say) by white people and white people are annoyed by black people.

My argument is that people should understand that in this great experiment called America, we're still little enclaves of interests, no matter how many Coca Cola harmony commercials that may be on television. That doesn't mean I hate you, Patsi. But I will call you out on attitudes and beliefs that are either hypocritical or are erroneous.

Jamie,

Those same good, honest and caring human beings you talk about can have Mammy's, talk about African American presidential candidates in the most patronizing manner, and use spite instead of reason to make decisions. And that doesn't mean they don't love their kids, care for the sick and mourn for their losses. One has nothing to do with the other.

And as for being African American or not, let's do this: You send Craig $25,000 and I'll send him the same. If when I meet you, I'm not black, you get my money. But if I am...

"There are Cosby kids and there are Good Times "

MD

The Cosby kids and Good times are fiction.
Kinda the point I was trying to make.
How can some one have the background you claim and sound like a braindead community college lecturer reading from his notes in the African American studies course he took as a college sophmore. The only reality were your comments on your grandfather.

As i said you remind me of my nephew who thinks he understands his cousins who were raised in the country because he spent time on his grandfathers farm.

It is not the social class it is your continued use of those lecture notes that don't fit for my neighborhood.

Jack

Jack

Bye Bye --.....Stop shouting at "bitter old women." I know a LOT of blacks who said they wouldn't support Hillary if she won. My son's best friend, the AA Vandy grad who managed my kid's primary campaign in 2002, said he wouldn't vote for Hillary. So when the primary was over my son said, "Jeezus, first I have --so and so-- saying he wouldn't vote for Hillary and now your are saying the same about Obama."

RE, this: "But I will call you out on attitudes and beliefs that are either hypocritical or are erroneous."

I'll call BS when I think I see it as well.

Mr. D

"Those same good, honest and caring human beings you talk about can have Mammy's, talk about African American presidential candidates in the most patronizing manner, and use spite instead of reason to make decisions"

Are you talking about black people? If you are, you don't know the people I know with the women who go to church in their "Crowns" or the men who sing in the choir. or the folks who take pride in their dashikis in fashion shows.

You send him $25,000. If I could I wouldn't be down at the senior center playing cards with the wonderful human beings I know. You seem to want everything black and white and people who cannot meet across the gulf.

Forget the money,. Join me for lunch and help serve the elderly and pass out hugs with the cornbread.

"Those same good, honest and caring human beings you talk about can have Mammy's, talk about African American presidential candidates in the most patronizing manner, and use spite instead of reason to make decisions. And that doesn't mean they don't love their kids, care for the sick and mourn for their losses. One has nothing to do with the other. "

And people can question a candidate without it being racism.

Jack,

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm just a writer with an education. And sorry to disappoint you, but there are millions of black folks just like me. No notes needed.

And Patsi, as for the BS, I would expect nothing less.

And a candidate can lose to a man without it being due to sexism. Remember what I said about interests...

Congrats Jamie, you bought the book Crowns.

OK
MD

Just as it is way past the time for me to be in bed you start to be real.

Let's see if everybody can keep it going.

Night all

Jack

"No notes needed. "

Got them memorized ?

You are what you are and you come across as you come across. Education has nothing to do with. Honesty most days may.

Jack

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-132227

Yes I did, but I have seen them on real, beautiful heads in the churches where they belong.

Jamie and Patsi,

Why are you two so obsessed with me? I'm just a guy posting on a blog. And yet, you're on some quest. You both want to know who I am, as though that makes a real difference, and you each want to prove something to me. You list out your black friends and acquaintances, your experiences with black people, as though I'm going to come out and say, okay guys, you're okay with us. Is that what you want? Please tell me. I'd like to know. Because it's only a blog.

Mr. D

I don't know about Patsi, but I am interested in speaking to you because you genuinely come across as a person I would like to know. Most blogs are hit and run. This one is a community courtesy of our host. The only reason I bring up black people I have known with you is because that is the way you entered this blog and because that identity is important to you.

If you had entered without a race, I would have spoken to you as I did to Bear before I knew he was black, just a person who is one hell of a scrabble and word twist player.

Because you have made being AA so much a part of your identity, I have shared with you some of my experiences with black people. (remind me to tell you about the lecture Morris gave me when I was 15)

We want to know you. That is what is different about this blog and why we all cherish Craig the way we do. The hit and runs don't stay around. You have stayed around which means you heard the call of that community beyond the politics. The group hug may break down into warring camps at times, but we keep coming back to the reality that we are all human and we all care about each other.

Spike

This goes back to what I stated above. This is a community from Sturgeon to Bear. If you want to join be prepared to hold your own as a human being, real person, someone with an opinion , and welcome to the real world.

Craig created this space several years ago and we will not allow it to degenerate into just one more space to throw around nonsense..

Get real or get gone.

P.S.

Everybody who is listed in Spike's list above who has not sent me their email address, please do so

webthings at comcast dot net

Spike,

Only 1%? I'll have to put in more effort.

Thank You Rezdog. No spam will follow, just an encouragement to join us in California.

Jamie -- "If you want to join be prepared to hold your own as a human being, real person, someone with an opinion , and welcome to the real world....Get real or get gone."

It's exactly these kind of comments to which I was referring...

"Craig created this space several years ago and we will not allow it to degenerate into just one more space to throw around nonsense.."

To some people, it already has degenerated to the level to which you refer. Also, I wasn't aware there was a chosen few who were given the responsibility to decide what is and what is not acceptable on this blog.

As seen above, 54% of the 600 comments made today were written by 6 people. If the goal by the regular posters here is to make people who are just joining the conversation uncomfortable, it would appear that goal has been met. Telling ANYONE to "get real or get gone" only reinforces the perception that this space is for only a chosen few.

In addition, making a statement such as that is very disrespectful. Making those types of comments is very easy to do given the annonymity of cyberspace. In real life, I'm sure you are a very respectable person. I cannot believe you would say that to someone face-to-face.

My original point was that raising the level of rhetoric and advocating respectful dialogue should not be seen as something that should be discouraged. It would seem to me by being more inclusionary, the depth and interest in discussions here would be even better than they are now.

Jamie, I'm a big boy, and I can give it and take it as well as anyone on this blog. However, I choose to respect the position of everyone on this blog, regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

Tashi delek -- Spike

I turned on the Olympics to watch the Gold Medal men's basketball game, and a hockey game has broken out...

Yes I am a race baiter and a jerk no matter what name I use

Posted by: alpha 1906 | August 23, 2008 2:48 PM

Ah Alpha 1906 has been here all along :-)

over 74% of those posts have come from only 25 people.

Posted by: spike | August 24, 2008 2:43 AM

I don't think my entries in this blog has been at all over active or over the top...

Spike

Thank you for the reply, And may all things auspicious come your way.

It is obvious by your reply that you are a person who converses. Despite the recent ugliness over the Obama/Clinton divide, we are all people who read books, listen to music, go searching for experiences.''

Treat us that way,.

Spike

"To some people, it already has degenerated to the level to which you refer. Also, I wasn't aware there was a chosen few who were given the responsibility to decide what is and what is not acceptable on this blog. "

Wake up! This blog isn't about position, it is about joining the human race. We have people across decades. We are people who have fought the rules, regulations, and driving while black bs.

This is our home. Move in or move out
Most blogs are a collection of strangers. We read them and wonder why those contributors are so crazy.

Despite the onery contributions from a couple of peole , we still try to hold our own against the trolls.

UB - what I was trying to say was that women have organized and organized well. I think they know what they're going to do already. If yet another organization is needed, believe me, one will arise.

Chloe and Tony - I don't think right now that I'll check out, but I have made a decision that should make it easier to stay here.

New Nick and Kimberly - how are you liking it so far?
Aren't we Clinton supporters just the most horrible, despicable, racist, doddering, selfish people you ever met?

Spike - it was interesting to see the divisions re the most prolific posters, but I'm not sure there was any point made. Not too long ago, we had over 1,000 posts on one day. Twenty-five is about the number of regulars here. Some days we won't hear anything from the usual big posters. There have been days when I posted a lot, even more than today. I think the reason for all that is that this is a communityof people who have established relationships and keep their friendships going here.

Craig enjoys our conversations with stories about our families and friends and our gardens etc. I don't feel any need for new voices, but it's nice to see them. I suspect some try it out and get a boring day (which does happen) and decide it's not lively enough.

Bear - you are black? I don't think I knew that - but have to say I could have easily forgotten. Me, I'm what I call dead-fish-belly white. It's pretty sad.

Saw Second-hand lions tonight and loved it. Musing about it now several hours later, I think the best part was the stuff they didn't say and let the viewer grow into understanding.

Sorry - one more thing. I don't agree that the discussions we have here about race are helpful, especially when they get heated. Frankly, I feel morealienated from black americans with almost every post of MrD's and the epithet 'racist' being slung around. That breaks my heart. It is not healthy or progressive - it is running in place - keeping the status quo.I'm questioning all my memories of conversations with blacks and nice times - when we smiled and joked and helped, were they really despising me? No, the nasty discussions were and are poisonous. As I said, the results are like nuclear winter.

Hey Bethy,

I want you to think. I want you to think beyond just the pleasantries exchanged and figure out whether or not the African Americans you've interacted with had interests and concerns that are counter to yours. And if you can become alienated by one black person, I want you to think about whether your connection to other black people is truly deep or superficial.

"if you can become alienated by one black person, I want you to think about whether your connection to other black people is truly deep or superficial."

Why Mr. D?

Are you afraid we haven't all suffered as much as you?

Afternoon, all.

I think I said it would be either Biden or Clinton - at least that's the way I remember it, LOL. I don't think this will do a lot to help win states, but unless Obama/Biden shoots itself squarely in the foot, it should win the EC.

Just a quick stop in before heading out into the heat to prep the lawn for the arrival of Fay.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/08/obamabiden.html#comment-131614

Rez - last order I saw, it was just the emergency injunctionthat was denied. The underlying lawsuit is still on the docket.

Well, gotta go turn long grassin to short grass. Later.

obama Supporters; how come you are not as pissed-off about the comments Biden made about Obama, as you are about the comments The Clintons made? Either you offended by so-called racial comments, or your not. I think this is what Clinton supporters are upset about. It seems to be okay for Biden to make racial comments about Obama, but God-Forbid, if The Clintons do it. the reason, Obama lied to Clinton Supporters, about her being on the short-list, is because Michelle coundn't stand having anybody upstage her, so they pick Biden whose wife, will fall in line behind THE GREAT AND POWERFUL MICHELLE. Who by the way hates america, and White People.