Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

This thread is about our nation's birth. Please stick to it as best you can. Current events can wait. Only six minutes to listen to the enitre Declaration of Independence by clicking the screen on this post. You'll be glad you did.

Happy Birthday to the United States of America! You've been a grand experiment. Long may you last.

My favorite words in TJ's Declaration:

"Let facts be submitted to a candid world."

While I've often quoted these words to young journalists as my view of what they should adopt as their motto, it's a darn good sentiment for any citizen.

Let's hope the Afghanis and Iraqis don't get a hold of this.

I hope they do, champ. TJ would be all for it.

One of the greatest attributes of the Declaration of Independence is that it codified protestation of the denial of rights as the most patriotic act one can do for ones country. And this is why I'm much more in awe of the documents and principles that were written, rather than the men who wrote it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osFKsmjwe6g&feature=related

Wisdom from the founding fathers.........

yep, Mr. D., we should not gloss over the fact that these flawed men totally blew it when it came to the rights of women -- and, of course. slavery, which set the time bomb that became the Civil War. But still, they managed to create a government that at long last made right the stuff they got so wrong.

Yeah, the mercenaries we employ, such as Blackwater (Hessians), is one of the most disgusting aspects of our military occupation over there, to me. We are basically re-colonizing the middle east, and we saw how well it worked out the first time.

Sad day when our current government is guilty of just about every transgression that provided the impetus for its own inception.

I know what TJ means by that sentence.....but why did he say "a candid world"?

The "Declaration of Independence", Mr. Jefferson was farsighted, it seems. I wonder how much of it came to him as he witnessed the violence and shocking cruelty of the French Revolution, thanks be that it didn't happen that way here. Perhaps the "Constitution" that came after was in some way a protection against the random condeming of neighbors and friends for sums of money or political advancement, charges that led to the guillotine. Even Lady Liberty came from France and for philosophy there was Voltaire and for comedy Moliere. I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of the arrogance and and criminality of the current administration........I'm sure, for all his far-sightedness he would be spinning in his grave and wondering what happened to "ask what you can do for your country"?.....

This is inflammatory, I realize, but:

Is it really academically and intellectually responsible to cherry-pick the "founding father's" legacies in such a manner? How could they be geniuses in one regard and the total ignoramuses in another? Seems like revisionist history to me.

The video is a very enjoyable reminder of what we celebrate today. And this web site is always a prime example of the independence and free exchange of ideas that the founders had in mind. Thanks Craig.

Happy Independence Day to ALL

french revolution........1789

murican revolution .........1776

ignoramus genius is about as good as humans get, champ

Like Calvin said to Hobbes:

"I don't know why we look for intelligent life in outer space. We still haven't found it here."

I have the "ignoramus" part down pat.........

1. frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic.
2. free from reservation, disguise, or subterfuge; straightforward: a candid opinion.
3. informal; unposed: a candid photo.
4. honest; impartial: a candid mind.
5. Archaic. white.
6. Archaic. clear; pure.
–noun 7. an unposed photograph.

I guess he was going for # 6........but still it seems an odd word choice somehow.......

or maybe #4.......honest impartial........ok......just doesnt sound right to me somehow I guess........

"Let facts be submitted to a candid world."

=

"Let us provide examples to those in the world who can honestly consider them"

One could make the argument he meant the 5th definition, though. That's a joke, by the way; to be clear

Craig,

Yes, our government, through trials and tribulations, has proven to be resilient. But while the spark was provided by the Founding Fathers, let us not be so blind to not understand that the very government they formed was often used as a weapon against those not included in the words, We The People. Those are the unfortunate truths that don't negate the legacy of the Founding Fathers, but allow us to temper our adoration by realizing they were flawed humans, and not demi gods.

#4 works for me, sturg. what a wonderful world -- and blog -- this would be if everyone would at least strive for an "honest, impartial, candid mind"

Craig already made that concession 10 posts ago, D.

damn straight, Mr. D., and they knew it too -- I am convinced that many of them would be royally pissed at some of what goes on, and probably amazed that we're still here

here's where the founders admitted they hadn't thought of everything -- the Ninth Amendment in the Bill of Rights: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

In other words, they were saying: Hey folks, keep it up, we might have missed something

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Do your duty.

I really feel that the Bush administration has invalidated the constitution by repeatedly undermining it. In other words, they killed it. It's hard for me to see how it could be resurrected. Ron Paul was the only candidate who espoused a return to constitutional values, and he was ridiculed for it.

I listened to a radio program last night. They were discussing the contrasting political views of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. They also discussed Adams and Jefferson's view of the French Revolution vs. The American Revolution. I believe it was said that the Americans were guided by religion and morality during their revolution, while the French weren't. That was the big difference between the two.

232 years old.

I like the comment about "keep it up, we might have missed something."

TJ and the rest of the guys were always working on improving and adding to their ideas... Declaration of Independance ... Articles of Confederation ... Constitution ... Bill of Rights.

I think the Founders would be rolling in their graves if they knew judges like Scalia were claiming to be fulfilling the intent of the Founders when they choose to ignore 250 years of change.

232 years is not such a long time, is it sturg? That's why this thread is important to me. Champ is right -- our Constitution is way more fragile than we think. And it's the people, not the politicians, who will keep it going.

if you figure that rome was founded around 750 BC.......at 232 years old rome was still 450 yrs or so away from the time of Julius and the emperors........

The Roman Republic was the phase of the ancient Roman civilization characterized by a republican form of government. The republican period began with the overthrow of the Monarchy c. 510 BC and lasted over 450 years until its subversion, through a series of civil wars, into the Principate form of government and the Imperial period.

figuring it from the beginning of the republic time or 510, at 232 yrs they were 278 years away from the empire........

They mentioned the beheadings in France. Jefferson seemed to have more faith in the good of man than Adams did. I did study about the French Revolution in high school I took 4 years of French. It was always an interesting part of French history to learn about. But , it's been a long time since those days.

yep.......232 is quite young.........unless maybe things just kind of move faster in the modern age.......

well yeah, i guess in dog years we're an ancient civilization by now

Sturg,

I think social change happens a lot faster in the age of automobiles and the internet than it did in the days when you had to walk everywhere and do your writing with a chisel.

you aint just a-woofin'

--dizzy dean

Just as long as nobody looks for McCain's signature on The Declaration of Independence. But, seriously, I loved American History when I was in school. All things about our history. I used to read about all the Presidents in our World Book Encyclopedia. I had all the important dates in our history memorized. I also raised and lowered the flag at my elementary school in 5th grade. It was cool to be 11 and to learn how to fold the American flag.

It's called 'indoctrination', Corey, and I fell for it, too.

I've witnessed close to 25% of the country's history.....

and on that 1789 i was just lucky i got the catchpaw right the first time.......

usually if i flunk the catchpaw, i take it as a sign to delete the post..........lol

Ah, Scranton:

Pa. historians baffled by vanished Lincoln bust

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080703/ap_on_re_us/independence_day_mystery

"Hey, Djas see dat statue we had over dare? Dey musta chrown it in da garbitch!"

We came a long way from warring for "the rights of Englishmen" to a war of independence, all in a year's time.

Total disgust with George III led to Washington raising an American flag. 'Common Sense', by Tom Paine, revved up Congress.

By this time John Adams had become convinced we had to fight the war not for redress of grievances, but for independence, and he seconded Virginia's Richard Henry Lee's resolution for same.

What makes the document so timeless and precious has been detailed well by Craig and Mr. D and others in this thread: "...a decent respect for the opinions of mankind."

Thomas Jefferson set forth the causes that "impelled them to separation", as the document begins .

Were it not for an absence of regard of human values by George III, the founding fathers never would have taken the bold step toward revolution , separation, and freedom from tyranny by England.

The document drafted by Thomas Jefferson was really to prove George III's "...design to reduce them under absolute despotism".

My quotations are from a history book by Allan Nevins and Henry Steele Commager.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Damn, you love setting yourself up, don't you?

Pride implies complacency, and complacency usually precedes upheaval.

Barbara W. Tuchman has a great book in which one of the four sections deals with how exactly george III managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.......

THE MARCH OF FOLLY (From Troy to Viet Nam)

one section on troy.......
one on one of the old popes.....
one on king george .......
one on viet nam

fife and drum corps
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes_main.html?nav=slate

I started thinking about "my favorite founding father" and finally settled on old Ben......because he decided to just quit wearing the stupid wig hat...........

Ok, one more question, to which I will check for a reply upon my rousing from slumber:

Craig,

I was planning on driving down to D.C. tomorrow to check out the show, and I was wondering if there was anywhere I could see the display without getting caught in a clusterbleep of cars and/or people. I wouldn't mind just parking on the side of some road if that was easiest and permitted by local authorities.

Thanks.

It's easy enough to "declare" independence.......but it is invariably followed by it's direct consequence.......war.....there don't seem to be many instances of independence freely granted.......the Commonwealth, the american revolution and civil war, etc..........

I mean, you can write that paper just as loop-hole free as possible........and as persuasive as possible to the candid world.......a rip roaring barn burner of a statement of justifiable independence.............but as soon as you publish it........you'd better break out the rifles.........

Nice video, Craig. . .

In keeping with the theme of the day, I think I will choose
Benjamin Franklin as my favorite founding father, because he was a true
Renaissance man: a political activist, a writer/satirist, a scientist, an inventor, a newspaper editor. Plus, he invented bifocals. He formed the first lending library in America. Later in his life, he fought to free all slaves and he became one
of the nation's leading abolitionists.

I would pick Benjamin Franklin as being the first modern American. Thoughtful, raunchy, intelligent, and if we'd have followed his advice, we would have the always delicious Turkey as our national symbol. A true genius in any age and a man after my own heart. BTW, Poor Richard's Almanac was genius in being able to skewer his political enemies. Think of it as the blog of the 18th Century.

Sturgeone, Patsi and unlikely_burrito,

Thanks for commenting on my Twilight Zone question.
My favorite two episodes were: the one when the mannequins in the department store came alive after the store closed at night and the one about the convict banished to a foreign planet who was given a beautiful robot woman to be his partner.

umlikely: to answer your question, the marathon has been on all yesterday,
July 3rd and, I think, will run all week-end.

Chloe,

Thanks for your kind words to me on the previous post. I love your
comments, too!

Thanks Craig ----Sometimes we all talk about these documents but forget exactly what they say. Happy 4th to you and all the bloggers---

Patrick Henry

Benjamin Franklin.
Happy Independence Day, 4th of July.

Flag went up on my house at daybreak.

Ooooh, you've been one-upped by NPR, Craig.

NPR had their own reading of the Declaration of Independence, and it also featured dramatic music with ominous snare-drumming and the occasional tolling bell, but each line was read by a different NPR personality. Top that!

Sadly, Click and Clack didn't make the cut.

In yesterday's print edition of The Wall Street Journal on page A12, there was a two column wide, page height ad that shouted in black on yellow print, in all caps. The punctuation in the ad was accomplished by changing font size. I've added normal punctuation:

"Screw the dopers, politics, critics, the false allegations and the fair weather fans. They ripped the soul out of this race. But the Tour doesn't belong to them. We're the ones grinding every mile, pushing past the limits of pain and exhaustion. The most gruelling competition in the world – it belongs to us. We're masochists. We're believers. And it's our time. Take back the Tour."

At the time I thought this ties in with our Special Holiday. Reading it again, I still think so.

"Sadly, Click and Clack didn't make the cut."

Two of my favorite flakes, champ.

"the Bewitching Pool"

Excellent choice, dog.

I would have to say that when all is said and done, my favorite Founding Father is Sam Adams. He might have been a radical blogger today, never relenting or backing down despite business failures and poverty.

Would have to do some research for comparison, but heard that a nation has 200 - 300 years from rise to power through collapse. The U.S. really didn't start becoming a world power until after WW I. 1918 + 200. At that rate we have about 92 years before hitting the dumpster.

Oh on the use of "candid". I believe he meant it in the sense of "unprejudiced". That the world would listen to the charges without automatically siding with the current government of Britain.

It was one of the reasons the new country sought aid from France which was an historical enemy of Britain.

MD -- if you are up and about -- Eugene Robinson has a good editorial in today's WaPo. It touches on some of the things you did in last night's conversation....

For those who haven't seen HBO's "John Adams" (being rerun this weekend), here is the clip on the writing of the Declaration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Txi1687wo&feature=related

I would have to say that when all is said and done, my favorite Founding Father is Sam Adams. He might have been a radical blogger today, never relenting or backing down despite business failures and poverty.

makes a pretty good beer too.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

"fish quiver in fear whenever my name is mentioned"

God...yet another Republican historian who says he's bipartisan, is praising Ronnie Raygun's presidency on c-span.....also trying to sell his book, The Leaders We Deserved and a Few We Didn't.

Champ, NPR started the practice maybe 15-years ago or thereabouts. I listened to the first one and it was very moving. For a number of years they replayed that broadcast and it seemed as if each year one of the original readers had died leaving nothing but fond memories and the spoken word.

The score of 1776

http://www.rhapsody.com/charliehaden/1776

The last song "Is Anybody There" is based on this quote by John Adams"

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore. "

This is a day to note also the sad irony of the simultaneous passing of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams on July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

To the founding fathers with all their faults many thanks
for providing us with the foundation that continues to
sustain this country.

To all here, Happy Fourth--enjoy the weekend

-- Margaret Mead:"
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

-- Barbara Jordan:
There is no executive order; there is no law that can require the American people to form a national community. This we must do as individuals, and if we do it as individuals, there is no President of the United States who can veto that decision.

As a first step -- As a first step, we must restore our belief in ourselves. We are a generous people, so why can't we be generous with each other? We need to take to heart the words spoken by Thomas Jefferson:

'Let us restore the social intercourse -- "Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and that affection without which liberty and even life are but dreary things."

http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/04/random-acts-of-patriotism/#more-27317

A grand and glorious 4th of July for all. As they suggest at Firedoglake..commit random acts of patriotism...

America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

oh to be sharing a flagon at the tavern, arguing passionately with my favorite buds Ben and Tom.

Sr. Horse.....do those quivering fish also sing "take me to the river" when you push the button on their plaques?

for all intents and purposes, the Declaration might as well have said......"You guys can stuff it.....we aint paying your taxes no more, and if you come over here in your fancy coats we'll kick your butts for you and send you packing."

still had to be backed up with a war.

The king could have put an end to all the uproar by simply granting the colonies seats in Parliament as the principal objection was that they had no say in the taxation vehicles.

The British had expended huge sums of money on the British colonies and wanted to recoup their losses but chose taxes that while lucrative injured the newly established businesses.

Jesse Helms has died. Probably the last of the old segregationists and arch southern conservatives. 30 years in Congress. He would have liked exiting today.

Some mention has been made today of the position of blacks within the colonies. Two of note:

Phyllis Wheatley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillis_Wheatley

Crispus Attucks (Does not reflect well on Adams as he was used to vindicate the soldiers involved in "The Boston Massacre")

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p24.html

If you keep clicking through on this link, it brings up even more prominent black names at the time of the revolution

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p37.html

The one above is the founder of the first Black Masonic Order.

Truly an excellent dramatization of Thomas Jefferson speaking his famous words from the Declaration of Independence. There is an elegant poetry in what Thomas Jefferson wrote, but not a word wasted. Each sentence sets out the visionary genius that made America the great country she is.

For me, this paragraph is the greatest: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"...

I remember reading once that the Declaration of Independence was read to a group of people who did not know what it is. When they heard about the right to "alter or abolish" destructive governments, they called it "communistic" and "treasonous". And no, I can't find where I read that...

I often wonder how Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton et al, would react seeing how our country has evolved over the years. I think they would be very proud of our accomplishments... and befuddled by many things done to our citizenry in the name of "protecting freedom"

Happy 4th to you all. I tried to convince my franchise that as an American I was not allowed to work today, but they didn't buy it!

I raise my glass today especially to Thomas Jefferson! Happy Independence Day Mr. President !!!

Adams is admired for his willingness to defend the British soldiers and Attucks is considered the first casualty in the revolution. Interesting outcome for the same event.

OLIVER WISWELL.........by Kenneth Roberts.......a view of the revolution from the Tory side.......excerpt:

There was no doubt in my mind as to who these men were. Ten years before, when I was a child of twelve, a Boston mob, in a frenzy over the Stamp Tax, had made an assault upon the house of my father's dearest friend, Thomas Hutchinson, chief justice and gov-
ernor of Massachusetts, enraged against him for no reason except that he held office under the Crown. Like my father and every other man of sense in the Colonies, Hutchinson had done everything in his
power to prevent the Stamp Tax. He was a native of Boston, a lover of his country, an able historian, a man of taste and penetration--but the mob, idiotically conceiving him to be an enemy, destroyed his furni-
ture and all his belongings, hacked his pictures to shreds, burned his precious manuscripts, notes and books; then broke into his cellar and drank itself into insensibility

---kenneth roberts

More history on Adams and Jefferson.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_jeffadams.html

jamie.......any idea where I could find Northwest Passage by Roberts online? I've googled me little fingers to the boney part to no avail..........

Sr Pescado said this, "Sr. Horse.....do those quivering fish also sing "take me to the river" when you push the button on their plaques?

you know, I don't have one of those things. I always thought they were the worst. No sense of humor, I guess.

The fish this morning are safe. They rejected everything I threw at them. Nightcrawlers later this evening.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Here you go Mr. Fish. Several sources

http://www.google.com/products?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS211US212&q=%22Northwest+Passage%22+Roberts&um=1&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

C-SPAN just had a focus group done by the Annenberg Center where reporters could observe the group. Fascinating comments.

http://www.c-span.org/search.aspx?For=annenberg

Jamie wrote: The king could have put an end to all the uproar by simply granting the colonies seats in Parliament as the principal objection was that they had no say in the taxation vehicles.

Me: Darn it! If we were part of England now, we would have national health care, a multiple-party political system, have our troops out of Iraq, strong monetary system, and god beer.

(Please don't report me to the patriotism police -- I still love America, such as it is.)

Good beer -- god beer is something else, lol!

Alicia

I keep hoping Canada will say, "All is forgiven, come home". : )

BTW, this is one of the expenses the British expected the colonies to cover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Plains_of_Abraham

This thread is about our nation's birth. Please stick to it as best you can. Current events can wait. Only six minutes to listen to the enitre Declaration of Independence by clicking the screen on this post. You'll be glad you did.

Posted by: Craig Crawford | July 4, 2008 12:38 AM

Jamie.....I guess i was looking for an impossibility....i was trying to find the whole text online to look something up......

sr horse.......yep, I cant imagine seeing one anywhere outside of a pawn shop.........

champ...a couple times we saw D.C. fireworks...in 1975 the kickoff to the bicentennial was AWESOME...we were on The Mall and the display just went on and on in breathtaking rapid-fire sequence.
When we took my aging parents a couple decades ago, we just drove to The Pentagon parking lot and saw the display from there...an excellent spot to view from...but if you have not taken off yet, go to WaPo for information.

STurgeone

What quote or reference are you seeking. If you can be more specific, I might be able to find it.

I don't know for sure what you are seeking, but this page might help

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~library/Library_Bulletin/Apr1990/LB-A90-Bales.html

..."how African Americans have always had to prove our patriotism in this country, even though we've sacrificed more, and gained less, than any other group in this country."

Mr. Democrat, I would challenge you on that statement... In World War II, Japanese Americans who were of military age had to decide between their American home or the home of their heritage in Japan. Even those in Japanese-American Internment Camps had to prove their patriotism and loyalty to the United States by fighting against Japan in the most deadly assaults on the front lines.

I do not mean to diminish African American contributions to our country or their patriotism. But for Japanese American men, who fought against Japan, it was often traumatic to comprehend that the enemy was the homeland of their parents or grandparents and knowing they still had families behind in Japan, they knew they could be destroying their own...

Interesting WIKI piece on "No No Boy" -- great novel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-No_Boy

I also disagree with your assessment of how Barack Obama was treated. He was served by MSM and DNC on bended knees during the primary. And both he and Mrs. Clinton suffered because of who they were. And Blacks, Women, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Latinos, etc. etc. etc. have contributed much to prove patriotism in this country... even the white majorities.

Peace

Jamie,

While the Boston Massacre occurred in 1770...(0r 1978 for Red Sox Fans), here is a link to the first shot fired in the Revolution...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasp%C3%A9e_Affair

It's fun to watch the reenactment every year...

Craig,

With regards to your point about the Constitution being a fragile document. I agree with you but I do wonder how it will continue to evolve when we have judges who claim to be the perfect vessel for interpreting a document that was left intentionally vague to allow others to fix it when appropriate?

I see a similar parallel when looking at the protestant churches within the US. Who made James Dobson or Billy Graham the voice of Christian teachings in this country? In the eyes of history, they are part of a church that split from God's original foundation because they lacked the power they thought they deserved.

While I think it's a good thing that we average a new amendment every 12 years, I can't help but wonder if greater specificity is what's best with the constitution going forward...

Benjamin Franklin is my favorite, for not resting on his laurels(so to speak) but having other interests.

C'mon Sturg: 1789 - 1776, don't be nitpicky, I was thinking more of the constitution and how after all, he went to Versailles looking for affirmation since Britain was out of the question. And what he saw happening in France(the unrest) was the affirmation he needed..

Happy Independence Day everyone, the Declaration should be thought of, and praised more often.

politically......The "Declaration of Independence", Mr. Jefferson was farsighted, it seems. I wonder how much of it came to him as he witnessed the violence and shocking cruelty of the French Revolution, thanks be that it didn't happen that way here. Perhaps the "Constitution" that came after was in some way a protection against the random condeming of neighbors and friends for sums of money or political advancement, charges that led to the guillotine.

im sorry i dont understand the nitpicky j'accuse......the way i read the above leads me to think that you were saying that the Declaration was influenced by the French Revolution somehow......as was the constitution......since they both, constitution and declaration, came well before the FR I cant understand your point........

jamie.....much thanks.....Im just going to have to dig for my copy as it seems......

the guillotine did not come into play until well after the constitution, as well......

Gosh, Sturg, I thought Betsy Ross did the stripes while Madame Defarge did the stars.

Okay sturge,

STill not sure what you were seeking. If you give me a hint, if it's out there, I can find it.

Jamie, I bet he was looking for the online text of the book. Some of the ones I look for are still under copyright and are unavailable. C'est la vie. Lafayette, nous sommes ici!

Craig, perhaps you might want to comment on the Freedom of the Press bill before Congress in light of the efforts of today's Democrats. Maybe you could even take a shot at the Fairness Doctrine in light of the Press our Founders enjoyed. Would Paine, Jefferson or even Franklin support the Fairness Doctrine?

Jefferson had not seen the French revolution up close when he wrote the Declaration of Independence to understand the problems and sided with the French. So the comment way above makes no sense.

It was the Federalists who most rejected slavery and Jefferson who used a lack of a "solution" for keeping the status quo. Realists more idealistic that idealists?

What ET said about Obama....

And this:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"...

Most "Liberals" fail to understand the role of Individual Liberty in 1776. When government deprives Individuals their rights, it fails to serve the "people" which was seen more a collection of individuals, than the communality many Liberals regard it today. The reality of such huge government mandates today, the secular view that the basis of individual rights does not lie in the spiritual metaphysics of our universe, the effort by the Press to filter news and opinion as a political organ would strike them as a dangerous virus to liberty.

The Declaration of Independence was a call by free individuals to resist tyranny that impuned their individual liberty. While our Founders were limited in their inclusiveness of Democracy for all, they were tempered by both realism and idealism. I fear Liberals todays, at least those Left of me, read what they want to see in the D of I and ignore the rest.

In light of recent SCOTUS rulings, who can say the court is not in step with the intention of those who fashioned our D of I?

As I have mentioned before, Adams and Jefferson died on this day long ago. The great body of what they agreed to in their final years, would unsettle most Liberals, yet in their ying and yang, there in lies the essential tension embedded in our great experiment.

For all who imagine they can subvert this intention by political coup, may they fail miserably, whether they come from the Far Left or the Far Right. The balance in the middle is where our nation's heart is, and the pretense of center is no substitute for actual record, honesty and the desire for eventual bipartisanism Adams and Jefferson eventually showed to each other.

Ben Franklin has usually been attacked by Liberals. He never advocated a welfare state, enjoyed a monopoly on media as America's first media mogul, and was focused on the frugal and hard working approach to success. He is however, my favorite on balance. He would hardly condone the actions of the Press today, nor agree with the House version of the new Freedom of the Press Bill. He advocated for the Middle Class and not an elite group of powerful cronies.

http://stubbornfacts.us/

One thing to consider when contemplating attitudes in the colonies vs modern life is the population. Most major cities (NY Boston Charleston) only had about 5000 inhabitants. Philadelphia as the largest city had approx 25000.

While labor was individual, there was a great deal of labor/funds as part of a "commonwealth" such as grazing land for livestock, defense (militia), upkeep of roads. Charity was both public expense as well as religious and social clubs.

In modern society, it would be almost impossible to deliver the services for millions that were once delivered by a thousand people to a few, most of whom would be known to them as neighbors, friends, or fellow worshipers.

jamie......what I'm seeking is off-thread......tomorrow we'll put our headbones together and look again......

Thanks for the recommendations, fellas. Duly Noted.

Even though Jefferson is my fav FF, I'll throw in that kick-ass Pole, Thaddeus Kosciusko.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko

Enjoy the show if you're going. Give me liberty or give me death!

Shall we head into evening with James Cagney and George M. Cohan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdvrIS7-wbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDYRjuzE1vI&feature=related

True Jamie, but our nation was founded on principles far from the Nanny State concept. There was little public social programs support and even roads and bridges were hard to get funding to buld. In short, the collective good was seen more as the good for the "many individuals". We have seen a change in how the collective is seen. As far as the D of I, let us understand the threats to Liberal Democracy we are facing. Jefferson for one, would not sit back and wait for tyranny to arrive at our doorstep. With the IAEA declaring Iran could produce a bomb in six months and an Obama administration that would take far longer to figure out who to talk to, understand this:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2008/July/middleeast_July44.xml§ion=middleeast&col=

Obama has already telegraphed to Pakistan his intentions and Pakistan is moving away from us.

Obama's position on Iraq and Iran as well as Syria is actually pushing Israel to consider a strike on Iran. Hillary was far more intelligent on these issues.

Obama's call to end military support for Columbia is made silly by both the rescue of hostages and the proof on FARC computer that Hugo is helping them.

Obama's talk about cutting missile defense and DOD budget cuts encourages China's new anti-ship ballistic missile program as well as other regimes seeking missiles.

Despite the flip flopping by Obama on terrorism being a police matter, he still has no plan to contain terrorism or even get OBL. All talk and confused talk at that.

And despite Obama pretending to pivot center, his ideology does not echo the D of I and the greatest threats from tyranny he points to is our own government. Let's see how many Democrats accept a candidate who claims he has not changed positions when he has. And the mess is so confusing, credibility is thus lost competely. One Obama supporter said on CNN that the flipp flopping doesn't matter. Obama supporters are voting for Obama because they "like him as a person" and not on his positions per se....LOL

Seems our founding brothers were very clear in principle and also realistic in their foreign policy.
Even Jefferson saw the eventual folly of utopian idealism when faced with the clarity of human behavior. He admitted this to Adams before he died.

Yankee Doodle Dandee
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes_main.html?nav=slate

Big Oil's Iraq deals are the greatest stick-up in history
The country's invaders should be paying billions in reparations not using the war as a reason to pillage its richest resource
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/04/oil.oilandgascompanies

Sturgeone; 3:52 pm.... You caught me, I FU(I was under fire).

Je suis SORRY, I was thinking of the Constitution and it's amendments, not the Declaration.

How does it go....to forgive is divine............

In keeping with today's discussion

Which document precisely is the Declaration of Independence?

Today's NYT "Looking for Liberty" by Ted Widmer,
director of the John Carter Brown Library @ Brown
University

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/04/opinion/04widmer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

It seems it is complicated in that the document in the National Archives was actually not written on July 4, but rather it was a handwritten copy that Congress ordered later that summer and post-dated.

The version that was in the room as the vote was taken has never been seen since then.

Maybe a hero should be John Dunlap a 28 year old Irish immigrant who spent much of July 4, 1776 setting the type, correcting & running off broadsides of the Declaration -- some 200 in all.

These copies were then distributed throughout the colonies/states. Today 25 of the Dunlap broadsides have been located.

OH, listening to The Declaration...it says that if the government is bad for the people, we have the right to alter or abolish it & institute a new government. And the description of King George STILL fits.

How prophetic!

tt

Nathan Hale

TT

"And the description of King George STILL fits."

It's terrifying how well.

He learned today why they have stopped giving out tickets to his appearances to the general public instead of by invitation only audiences. The public got in on the act at Monicello today and he was booed a half dozen times and some of the protestors had to be escorted away.

Sturgeone; Truly, I wasn't accusing you. I was just thinking that what Jefferson saw when he was in France, maybe accounted for some of the protections for the People in the Constitution. It was just a random thought with absolutely no basis in fact, and then it seemed silly to try and explain it...........so sue me ... and have a Happy 4th.....

Just a thought....long after the American Revolution, we had others we might call our heroes. So -- on a personal, not a political level, who was the bigger hero: Abe Lincoln or John Brown?

This is a serious question. Something I have to think about when I think of freedom.

Professions of the 55 signers of the Constitutions: (many had two jobs)

35 were lawyers
13 merchants
12 owned or managed slave-operated plantations
11 speculated in securities
6 were land speculators
3 were physicians
2 scientists
2 farmers

2 scientists and 2 farmers....there ya go....

Not dissing the founders, just understanding who founded the country....

Patsi

Have to go with Lincoln simply because without the Union we would be a hodge podge of states that could have been in conflict with each other in much the same way that various other geographic sections have been in conflict.

It is no accident that two of the most stable places of our size on earth with maximum freedom are Canada with its conjoined provinces and a central government and the United States.

Europe has figured that out and now has the European Union but that is still in the fussing with each other as to who is in and who is out.

A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand. still makes sense

John Brown had passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy.

Nick,

Virtually everyone did some form of farming just as a matter of survival. While John was off lawyering, Abigail was home running the family farm and it wasn't a tiny truck garden. This was true about most of the men to one degree or another.

A totally different view of patriotism, from The Progressive....

http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx070208

Excellent article Dexter except that I would quibble a bit in that what he is describing is jingoism more than patriotism. I think loving your country is fairly natural in the sense that it is "home". Jingoism is when you think your "home" is better than that of anyone else or that yours couldn't be better.

"John Brown had passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy."

And I completely agree with that. But I sometimes wonder where the truest heroes are....the people with the government behind them...or those that say, the hell with it....I'll go down making my stand.

Plus, while I long ago thought this described John Brown: "passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy."....

I am no longer so sure.

Patsi,

It is the bomb throwers who shake things up. They aren't comfortable and they are dangerous, but they are often the ones who first point out an injustice. They are the anarchists, the third parties, the idealists (Ralph Nader with weapons : )

You can't let them have power or you get the Russian Revolution, but you have to have some means to move their good ideas eventually over time into the general political thought. All the great democracies have a way for these noisy, nasty folk to make changes without killing too many people in the process.

Nick

It was a matter of necessity. People couldn't exactly pop on out to Safeway. There would be major suppliers of some basics and small businesses that handled imported goods, but everything else was homegrown including medicines or handmade.

If you dumped the average modern person back in the 1700s they would be virtually helpless. This group might be the exception if we banded together. I can spin, Renee can weave, Ruth seems to have the truck garden in hand. We have a couple of chefs that could probably whip up something from the south 40. Horsedooty wasn't having too much luck with the fish earlier, but at least he knows how.

It would be interesting to take a survey of just how many 18th century skills are present in our happy little band.

Sorry, but cultural relativism doesn't work for me. Sure, cultures ARE different, but injustice at a deeper level has to do with our anthropological meme (or diviantion from it) and transcends cultural differences. That is why we find things repugnant in other cultures as well as our own. Executing minors offends us. Executing one over their religious views offends us. Rape, stealing, polluting the enviornment all strike at humanity's conscience, not just the particular rules of a particular society. Altruistic behavior is strongly attached to punishment and moves through human evolution past cultural norms.

There is a huge difference between non conformists and crazies. In any case, I just read this:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ARGENTINA_METROPOLIS_FOOTAGE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME Now the directors cut should be interesting.........

I hope 9/11 is well. And on our Birthday, I can only think of Adam's closing line in the recent series on his life. I am not certain most Americans are aware of the sacrifice, not just for our freedom and Independence, but in the knowledge that our Liberal Democratic principles ARE a beacon for humanity standing in stark contrast to despots, tyrannies, theocracies and other malignant forms of social order that rob INDIVIDUALS of their intrinsic worth and potential, their chance for happiness and achievement.

Kudos Founding Brothers and the women who stood beside them......

Happy Independence Day to all! I think everyone here is rather special, you've all been very gracious to me, in NOT telling me to keep my Canadian ass on MY side of the border, at least on "the internets." There is so very much about America to admire, she represents the best ideas, freedom, the chance to rise from frail beginnings. She (America) also tucks an awesome responsibility into the mix. It's never simple. And balance isn't something that comes naturally. Time to count blessings!

jamie, thanks for weighing in and commenting on The Progressive Magazine article.

Now for pogo and dnd and any other Francophile or fan of cycling, the 2008 Tour de France kicks-off at 8:30 A.M. e.s.t. tomorrow on Versus Network, live streaming 2 hours earlier.

http://www.versus.com/tdf/

I can build, make things, grow things and have a basic knowledge of health and medicine. I am not sure I would be so helpless living in 1776. I wonder if I could ever make a workable condom. If not , I guess married life would be my only option....LOL

If we could take a number of books back in time with us, I'm not so sure we would all fold.

Tylenol, with all that tar oil, we'll be friends for the next hundred years. And what we do for comics?

Thanks....

Tylenol

Just staying on your good side ... McCain might get elected and we might need a place to hide. : )

That tar oil is an environmental disaster. So much for pristine images of Canada. But thanks for the sedimen..er sentiments!

Jamie, yer all welcome. LIke I said, we're just unarmed Americans with healthcare, and great jazz festivals.

No Jamie, McCain won't ditch free trade. So perhaps Canadians might like McCain. I doubt Canadians what to be defending Liberal Democracy all by themselves.

If Democrats have their way, they would stop Canada from extracting tar oil. Why would we have to hide if McCain gets elected? Obama/Pelosi is even more dangerous. They'll sue OPEC and you won't be able to afford driving to Canada....

sue OPEC? Americans RUN OPEC. The price of gas is what THEY want (in American dollars too!). Cmon Max, oilmen sat at the cabinet table DROOLING the past 8 years. And we'll defend Liberal Democracy for a long long time, Max. Liberals are our natural governing party.

Read what Tylenol says about the crud being extracted up there. It's time to ditch the fossil fuels once and for all. Bite the bullet and get it done before we destroy the last of the pristine places.

On the skills list, my son is a blacksmith so we have pots and pans, harnesses and the horses have shoes. Now if we have a leatherworker, the people will have shoes as well.

Canada is sitting on top of the world's largest fossil fuel reserves. We landed a guy on the moon and you think tar oil can't be extracted without destroying the environment? I'll make a bet with you on eventual extraction. The Brits already have a pretty affordable process and it doesn't mean a country wide mess and environmental destruction. Dams are killing off salmon in the Pacific West.

Please explain tar oil is an environmental disaster. Already the US and Canada are working on carbon sequestering. You sound like we don't have the ingenuity to solve our energy problems besides solar (15 cents plus per kw) or nukes?

Solar, wind, wave, thermal, fuel cell

no on nuclear unless we solve the storage problem.

It isn't the taking out of the ground that does the majority of the damage, it is the burning and manipulating. We can't destroy the earth, but we can darn well destroy ourselves. The pollutantsbeing poured into the food chain are already eliminating species. Human beings are on the list. The choices are simple: Change or die.

We'll have this discussion another night, Max. But believe me, northern Alberta is an environmental distaster.

Jamie, do you know how many products use oil? You think the world is going to end using coal or even wood any time soon, let alone oil? And the problem with fossil fuel is largely the carbon by product. If you could utilize fossil fuel including coal and gas without harmful products, why not? The idea of suddenly switching to unproven and unaffordable alternatives is both unrealistic and unnecessary. Already technology is being directed towards that end, but we are some ways away. Democrats can't even manage to replace our energy grid and end support of that wonderful corn subsidy. Despite that, soon cellulosic will come on line as well as workable coal liquification. We have abundant fossil reserves to bridge the discontinuity without destroying our economy. You are suggesting a major switch as we are falling behind economically. Solar could not possbly take the energy load in the near future, nor wind or even dams. Want more nuclear?

The US runs OPEC? Gees. Do a google and look at the reaction to US suing OPEC....LOL You have got to be kidding. Yes, there is speculation here driving up the price, but OPEC is edging for EURO dollars and I think Tyl misreads the oil industry. We had clout, but Democrats haven't allowed new refineries in years. We have over 50 billion gallons in the US and we DEMCAND OPEC increaes production?....LOLAnd if Tyl is rightm then how much BS is Democrats suing OPEC? POlls show Americans want fossil fuel extraction and fear mongering over the envirnmental disaster that will follow is just the kind of claims Democrats make about Republicans. No rigs leaking in the Gulf. Let's close mining altogether. Then we can stop deforrestation and fishing.

And I though today was Independence Day. Liberals tend to want government to enforce mandates and limits on people instead of penalizing harmful consequences of their actions and allowing them thjeir ingenuity, liberty and innovation. Instead there is the knee jerk reation to vilify things like oil, free markets, etc....

Liberals in this country don't want to defend much anymore. OPr haven't you been keeping up?

Jamie,

I am a very good quilter. Love to can veggies in summer, however without the pressure cooker, I don't know how they preserved the veggies..
Make a mean peach cobbler, that no one has ever turned down.

julie

Sorry, I meant 50 billion barrels.....

Julie,

I'm not sure how they did it without mason jars and rubber seals myself. I've seen the old fashioned jars with the metal pieces that held down the stoppers plus using parafin to preserve the seal with linen pieces covering, but I'm sure there was some botulism running around.

When in the course of human events....
by mcjoan
Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:05:03 PM PDT
Anything sound familiar?

"In response to the revelations that a president had violated the 4th amendments stricture against "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures," the first branch of government stood up to that president, led by Senator Frank Church:

Personal privacy is protected because it is essential to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our Constitution checks the power of Government for purposes of protecting the rights of individuals, in order that all our citizens may live in a free and decent society. Unlike totalitarian states, we do not believe that any government has a monopoly on truth."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/4/132756/9095/557/546607

JUlie

Just checked. They didn't can. That wasn't discovered until the 1790s and didn't come into general practice until the 1800s. Food was dried, pickled in brine or viegar, salted, cured or placed in honey or whiskey (no wonder brandied peaches were such a big item)

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/nchfp/factsheets/food_pres_hist.html

I wonder if they ever froze things. I have read that they cut huge blocks of ice from the river and put into caves with hay and therefore had ice a good portion of the year. Could they have put food in there also?
Interesting to think of how they might have done things.

Julie

Found the info on the root vegetables. They were left in the ground until just before freezing and then stored loose in dark cellars

http://vegetablegardens.suite101.com/article.cfm/vegetable_food_preservation

Learning all sorts of stuff tonight.

Julie; 11:10 pm.... I believe my mother used to do it as old-fashioned a way as you could find. She would blanch the veggies( drop into scalding water for about 3 minutes then remove and drop into freezing water for 1 minute) then they were set into the jars with light brine and whatever spices were necessary(pickling). At this time the melted parafin was poured onto the top of the veggies and liquid, when it was set, a piece of wax paper(the old heavy kind) which had been cut into squares was pulled tight over the jars and tied with a piece of butcher's string.

I ate like this for my whole life at home and was never sick, ....unless I went to majorette practice in the winter in my shorts.......

Concrete was not invented until 1849, also they surmise now that the eqyptians may have done some as their pyramids they are now discovering are not all natural limestone. The cellars I knew as a kid, were all concrete, so I guess they were either like the caves or else used slabs of rock to line the walls and floors.
I know they used the hay on the floors in the caves, at least that is what I have read . I would think A cellar would not be as deep as a cave and therefore not as cold..

PP
Yes my grandmother and aunts all utilized the same method on the farm. But we were wondering what they did back in the 1700's before the jars were invented..
Home canned vegetables taste so much better than store bought canned goods.
I told Jamie the story about my grandmother making bread and the Indians would smell it & come and beg. It was like trick or treat, if they did not receive there were bad consequences. But that is a much later time..

Julie

Last time I checked the Colliseum was still partially standing and the aquaducts still usable. : )

Thanks for the refrigerator tip.

Jamie,

I would flunk out of the craftsman's or artisan's gathering. Last month I attended a "wool festival," a combination breeder's show (everything from llamas to sheep to angora rabbits) and craft fair. At one of the displays someone asked if I was a spinner, a weaver, or a knitter. Sadly, I replied, I'm just a wearer.

Bread baking is a wonderful way to work out frustrations. I love baking Challah

Ivy

It's okay. I've sheared one sheep in my life and it isn't something I would take up as a regular experience, but I do know how to card wool and work a spinning wheel (badly). I've always wanted to learn to do it well.

I saw one where they were living as American pioneers and another set in Victoria England, but I don't remember a Colonial era one.

When my son was learning blacksmithing from the recreationists at Fort Vancouver, I got really interested in the gardens and the medicinal herbs. It was about the time I was reading my way through Brother Cadfael so the practical tied in with the pleasurable.

I watched American Indians in Northern New Mexico
work weaving machines with as many as 6 or 7 colors at a time. Now that was fascinating. It seemed to take hardly any time to make a gorgeous blanket, or throw rugs.

Jamie, I read your post. I didn't watch King George today. Just as well.

tt

i saw an npr show one time which pointed out that napoleon had something to do with preserved food.....think it was in bottles or something.......he had to find a way for the army to carry food with them.....had something to do with chicken kiev, I think......

Politically......not at all a problem......

declaration of independence......lincoln holding the country together.......the south's declaration of independence was rejected and half a million died......mostly horribly........

from food reference.com

Nobody knew better than Napoleon that a well fed army was a more formidable force. Hence his famous quote: “An army travels on its stomach.” In 1800 Napoleon offered a prize of 12,000 francs to the person who could devise a method of food preservation, a technique that would undoubtedly facilitate sustained nourishment for his troops. In 1809 French chef Nicolas Francois Appert (1750-1841) claimed the prize. Appert, deemed the “father of canning,” devised a method of sealing food in airtight bottles. His invention paved the way for modern canning which, in his honor, is known as “Appertization.”

Sturge,

Do you remember ever reading where Jefferson Davis went before the Congress and Lincoln and told them if they would give him six months. He would abolish slavery in the south. Both refused him.. It is said to be in the congressional record. I heard this at a DAR meeting, but have often wondered if it is true.

Julie

I listened closely, again, to the Declaration and OMG, OMG!

*shaking mah head*

tt

julie....yes I've heard of that.......

TT......listened a couple of times today.....it's cool to hear the whole thing as a coherent statement.....I guess I ordinarily ever hear any of it but "we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal......."

sturge, and we need all women. Hrumph. That's my only complaint.

tt

it's kind of like the founders were saying men are more equal than women, eh......

Married women mostly had babies every year during the Colonial times. Either that or they moved into a separate bedroom and manufactured a lot of headaches.

sturge, yep I think so back in the olden daze. NOT that it still exists! Hrumph!

tt

B,

For your information:

The typical colonial woman gave birth between five and eight times, (not counting all the times she got pregnant and lost the baby).

Death in childbirth was sufficiently common that colonial women regarded pregnancy with dread.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/childbirth.cfm

Regarding the American Revolution, Professor Jerry Fresia argues that there never was a "revolution" in his book

"Toward an American Revolution: Exposing the Constitution and other Illusions"

South End Press
Boston, MA

Jerry was a professor at The Evergreen State College. The book is available to read online for free: http://cyberjournal.org/authors/fresia/

Fresia is a leftist radical but despite his ideology there are some good points made in the book. I'd be interested in hearing what others think of it.

dont know who thom hartman is but this is a short piece of his which says that the common thoughts of the founders being rich guys protecting their own was not quite true.....that madison kept his constitution notes private for years because they had actually "betrayed" their class in quest of an egalitarian society.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G8JgXFwU1k

sorry typo:

contentious

Good morning everyone!
Hope you all had an enjoyable 4th. : )
I love Holidays, everything else in my world just slows down a bit, and allows some time for easy-living.

Craig- Thanks for the video, I let my children watch it. : )

Play nicely - off to tour the Detroit-Superior Veterans Memorial Bridge.

Ciao!

"sorry typo: contentious"

Rule #1
Never say you're sorry to a woman hater. It just makes them abuse more.

Preservation. Sturg undoubtedly knows for sure, but wasn't Admiral Nelson returned to England in a barrel of brandy??

When I saw his tomb in the crypt of St Paul's, I was deeply moved. Don't know why.

I always get a kick out of people who say that the "average life span" was 50" or some other low number. It's true if you are talking about "averages", but the truth is that people lived to the same ages modern people do, they just had to survive the first three years of life. Due to disease infant mortality was a great deal higher. Anyone who got past that and didn't have a severe accident, were probably healthier (because of exercise) than most people today.

The most common cause of death in women was complications from childbirth, but they were also pretty good at preventing really common pregnancies. Even the largest families with a really fertile couple, the children are spaced two or three years apart.

Now the idea of starting to have children at 18 and keeping up a steady schedule for the next 30 years would make any woman want to head for a back room and a laudenum addiction. : )

If Nelson interests you, you might like this website for his ship the HMS Victory, the oldest commissioned ship in the British Navy

http://www.hms-victory.com/

Oh and he was probably shipped in spirits

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/horatio_nelson.htm

Wesley Clark 'moving on'
Four days after his controversial “Face the Nation” appearance, retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark is taking a break from the presidential campaign — but many Democratic insiders think he has already been crossed off the list of Barack Obama’s potential running mates.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11529.html

Jamie said this, "Even the largest families with a really fertile couple, the children are spaced two or three years apart.

I have always assumed that the reason for large families was not from lack of birth control but the fact that you needed to raise your own work force for the farm. Even up to the early 1900's. My father in law was the youngest of 11 children. He was born at home on a farm in Tennessee.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

There is an intriguing book titled "The Way We Never Were" by Stephanie Coontz, also a professor at Evergreen State. It is a "myth-shattering examination of two centuries of American family life [that] banishes the misconceptions about the past that cloud current debate about 'family values'." Well worth the read, along with her other books.

http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/about.htm

Jamie:

The "wool people" were fascinating and it was great to learn about the process of "fiber arts" from start to finish. Some of the animals there were worth tens of thousands of dollars.

My mom is a gifted needlewoman; my contribution was to purchase some angora for her to knit me some mittens which she did, and they are exquisite.

Here is the Wool Festival link for those interested in attending next year...

http://estesparkcvb.com/events.cfm?mode=cat_overview&listing_cat_id=1437

los muppets re-enact the continental congress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAVpj_Vo7zk&eurl=http://www.crooksandliars.com/

Dooty

Children could be a benefit or a curse. In an agricultural environment, they could be put to work at some chores as soon as they could toddle. In an urban structure, they were often a drain until they could be sent to mines, mills, and service jobs to bring in family paid income.

Child labor was a major issue in the 1800s. One of my great greats was instrumental in the end of child labor in the mines of Scotland in 1842 when it became law that women and girls would not go below ground and boys could not be sent until they were educated to read and write.

At New Lanark schools and living accomodations were instituted to improve conditions, but young children once literate would be used to crawl under the massive weaving machines to clear away the waste wool.

No Bush-McCain appearance at convention

EXCLUSIVE: The first major independent advertising benefiting Senator McCain will begin next week when VETS FOR FREEDOM, a 20,000-member, non-partisan organization established by combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, launches a $1 million + TV campaign. Ohio, Virginia and New Mexico are included in the initial buy.
http://www.politico.com/playbook/

Jamie,

I was only speaking to the agricultural environs. Out here in the south and west, child labor was not the issues that they were in the North and Eastcoast due to the lack of factories and the like.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Dooty

The need for children on the farm is still a factor, though the reduction in family farms is making this less of an impetus for larger families. My uncle was really upset that he had four girls. Even though she is now in her 60s, the fourth daughter speaks of her dad with resentment because she was his last attempt to have a son and he always treated her as a disappointment.

He did the next best thing and married off the second daughter to the neighbor's son so they could join up the properties.

Jamie,

I had to spend a week one time for work in North Dakota. The PBS station had an interesting show on one night about the population of North Dakota. North Dakota's population has been on a downward spiral since the mid 1930's due to the amount of farm land that can be inherited and the number of children that stand to inherit said land. There is now not enough farm land for every child to have to make a living. So, a lot of the young population of North Dakota has had to move off the farm and even move from North Dakota in search of new ways to make a living. It was a very interesting program.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

See what one of the “farmers” homes looks like who signed the Declaration of Independence.

While on our recent family vacation to Charleston, SC, we visited the beautiful Middleton Place Plantation on the Ashley River. Arthur Middleton, son of the founder, was a signer of the Declaration of Independence. It was fun taking two teen girls with us to witness history, and they seemed so interested in it, especially the slave quarters. Middleton had what was called “freed slaves”. We sat on a bench in Elisa’s house, the last slave to reside and die at Middleton, reading the names of every slave who had worked for the Middleton’s. It is interesting to see that Arthur was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, his father was President of the First Continental Congress, yet his grandson was a signer of the Ordinance of Secession.

“Begun in 1741 by Henry Middleton, President of the First Continental Congress, the 60-acre landscaped garden was both an intellectual and emotional focus for successive generations of Middletons. Until 1865, the garden was nurtured and embellished by Henry's son, Arthur Middleton, a signer of the Declaration of Independence; Arthur Middleton's son, Henry Middleton, who was Governor of South Carolina and U.S. Minister to Russia; and Governor Henry Middleton's son, Williams Middleton, who signed the Ordinance of Secession.”

http://www.middletonplace.org/

http://www.middletonplace.org/default.asp?catID=4541

there are two plantations and gardens here in close proximity.......middleton place and the drayton's Magnolia Gardens.......

http://www.magnoliaplantation.com/index6.html

Ended up going to the Philly fireworks, and Zambelli's definitely needs to re-examine their procedures during inclement weather. The magnesium ground effects created a thick cloud of smoke that hung in the humid air and obscured most of the major charges. Quite comical actually, but a big waste of $$$ for fireworks that no one saw.

I suppose there's no more appropriate place to be on the 4th than Old Philly.

"magnesium ground effects created a thick cloud of smoke that hung in the humid air and obscured most of the major charges"

The SF Bay area has a similar problem but created by fog. There is always a chance the fireworks will be obscured.

excerpt from Lincoln's "Lyceum Address" independence day 1838

At the close of that struggle [the Revolution], nearly every adult male had been a participator in some of its scenes. The consequence was, that of those scenes, in the form of a husband, a father, a son or brother, a living history was to be found in every family-- a history bearing the indubitable testimonies of its own authenticity, in the limbs mangled, in the scars of wounds received, in the midst of the very scenes related--a history, too, that could be read and understood alike by all, the wise and the ignorant, the learned and the unlearned.--But those histories are gone. They can be read no more forever. They were a fortress of strength; but, what invading foeman could never do, the silent artillery of time has done; the leveling of its walls. They are gone.--They were a forest of giant oaks; but the all-resistless hurricane has swept over them, and left only, here and there, a lonely trunk, despoiled of its verdure, shorn of its foliage; unshading and unshaded, to murmur in a few gentle breezes, and to combat with its mutilated limbs, a few more ruder storms, then to sink, and be no more.

Yeah, I suppose I'm just spoiled. At least all the fine ladies weren't obscured.

Man, Lincoln was one depressing dude.

Sturge, We considered visiting Magnolia, but time did not allow a visit there. The Drayton’s have some interesting history. The Drayton House, not on the plantation, was highlighted on the Travel Channel’s Ghost History of Charleston recently.

We all have history surrounding us where we live, but there is so much about wars surrounding the Charleston area. I did not know that German submarines were positioned off Charleston Harbor during WWII and Ft. Moultrie on Sullivan’s Island was where they were watched.

“The National Park Service is offering a 30-minute ranger guided program about Fort Moultrie during the World War II era”

http://www.nps.gov/fosu/parknews/wwiiexhibit.htm

Be careful Senor Pescado. You will get me started on my "History not told is history lost!" genealogical rant.
:-)

At least in years past there were journals, letters, diaries and memoirs. In this day and age of putting pixels out into the open air, a great deal of the day to day activities of normal people (as opposed to the movers and shakers) is gone forever.

Without history, you have tyranny simply because the young are never told anything other than what rulers want them to learn.

"have always assumed that the reason for large families was not from lack of birth control but the fact that you needed to raise your own work force for the farm. Even up to the early 1900's"

Doots -- I think you and Jamie and prof Marcia are all three right on various levels of this. Farmers, especially those moving West, did indeed try to birth farm hands. And Jamie is right about the conditions in urban areas. But under those truths is the dirtiest one of all, which Marcia mentioned: pregnancy and childbirth was a dangeous thing for a woman. Very dangerous.

My father's mother had thirteen children (nine of them lived) and it destroyed her health. My maternal grandmother had nine, all lived. The difference was that my mother's family had land and money. Grandma Sylvie was taken care of very well after each birth. For example, women came in and helped her for over a month after each baby. She -- and many others -- believed a woman had to stay on her back long enough for her uterus to (her word) "stabilize." I do think there are some medical reasons this might have validity.

And Marcia is right on as far as my family went: Sylvie moved into another room in her late 40s according to my mother. She later got furious because my mother, her oldest daughter, had five babies. She said my father had turned her daughter into nothing but a baby making factory.

The five girls my parents had, my father rejoiced over. He had a sort of sexist -- but funny -- saying about it to needle his male friends who tried to needle him:

"God looks down to see if a family needs another man and if it doesn't, he blesses them with girls."

men vs. women

what did Franklin say about houses?

"are putting more out there about their day to day lives than ever, and as many white collar criminal has learned once it's on the net it's never lost. "

But is it preserved and passed along? It tends to be the families who gather and distribute. What is out on the web has little context or relevance because it is not tied to a current memory.

...not to mention you need electricity to access it.

You're talking to a wall, Max. I enjoy your posts, though; so thanks.

"meme" is a very annoying word, btw, a la "paradigm"

Yes, I used to dislike meme until I started reading some human evolutionary stuff. I use meme because it is used frequently in anthropology to denote the paradigm of human behavior. The meme of archetypes. See the term memetic evolution. That is why I use the word meme above because I am intentionally specifying sterotypic human behaviors and sentiments most likely influenced by genes.

Yes, probably talking to a wall would make more sense...LOL

Max

You might have more success if you just told people the time and then gave them a link where they could learn to build the watch. : )

http://www.washburn.edu/cas/art/cyoho/archive/KStravel/GardenOfEden/

This is as close to a "grand garden" as my part of the country had....(the Kansas of my youth)....

...nice spread. I'm jealous.

Get off the grid. I hope to someday, while still living, of course. That's the simplest solution, although it admittedly favors the wealthy, because alternative energy is expensive for the early adopters.

Hey Patsi,

At least yours was above ground : - )

http://www.undergroundgardens.info/

Max

The talk about the necessity of getting off the oil teat was making news almost 40 years ago as was all the problems associated with water pollution and depletion of water tables.

At that time, the push was to convert to wind, solar, and desalinization but it was pooh poohed as being "Too Expensive". Well "Too Expensive" now is over $2,00 a gallon less than we are paying.

It has to be done and if that means subsidizing those unable to afford the installation expense, then that's where the tax dollars have to go. Unless we solve the energy problem we are going to be up that nasty creek in less than a generation.

There are scads of sites out there, but you can start with these two.

http://www.green-energy-news.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_energy

New York State has abundant cellulosic waste that could generate enough loca; ethanol to power NY auto traffic like Champ said. It fails to do so because of a supreme failure to think straight and stand up to special interests. Perhaps you should direct some of your arm chair energies into motivating the State you live in. Instead, Liberals have been absorbed in corn subsidies and suing OPEC that yield little to nothing. NY is Democratic State, so why doesn't it lead?

"Hare-brained", sorry. As in the size of a rabbit's brain.

Jamie -- Forestiere sounds like a fascinating guy! Thanks for that link....

they want to drill in places they're not now allowed to......hence the killer prices.......the people scream for the solution, which to the gop and oilmen is drill drill drill.........meanwhile money is being made........

Jamie -- here's a fun site, RoadsideAmerica...

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/

Let them drill. We need oil, let's go get it. I am vehemently opposed to subsidies for Big Oil, or any "Oil", for that matter. Let the market decide.

"let the market decide" ie let the oilmen fix it how they want to.......

What do you want, Sturg? A fascist state that tells everyone how when and why to endeavor?

"That attitude" is as fundamental to our democracy as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Do you even take a single civics class?

Awoooga! Awoooga!

pretty large leap, there, pilgrim......far as I'm concerned there's quite a bit of "fascism" going on right now......and it aint from liberals........

40 years ago, solar was not even practical, nor wind. Hydro was advanced and today hydro is killing salmon and presenting ecological problems to the point dams are being blown up.

In the US the number one reason for dwindling water supply is population growth and turning deserts into farm land. We are still some years away from affordable high efficiency solar mass produced. Wind will not generate low kw power and hydro has some serious problems.

The terrible problem you see ignores the quality of available fossil fuel that can be extracted without destroying the environment as we bridge the technological divide. We will need new refineries for coal liquification and oil/gas carbon sequestering because we need such energy production to produce mass electrical power. We will also need such power including nuclear to turn seawater into drinking water., usch as the projects France seels world wide.

Oh there are solutions such as cellulosic resources, solar efficiency to come, geothermal and eventually hydrogen power. The problem is how to get there without destroying economic stability. When the Democrats slow purchases of Raptors because a fifth generation fighter will make them obsolete, the same logic holds true for investing in significant residential solar when new generation solar is a decade away. See Mars rovers....Cellulosic investment makes more sense. If the sea is rising then it makes more sense to desalinate water and use it on land. That requires large scale power production. We need to engineer our solution, not simply mandate it.

As far as not seeing into the future, just listen to Obama, "drilling won't help lower prices for a decade". So? You think in a decade we won't need it? And oil will be needed for many products. Nuclear can desalinate water and Democrats curbed that though there were and are designs that are terror proof, earthquake proof, meltdown proof and where the reactor serves as a permanent storage vessel. We already have the warheads to power the reactors and so do the Russians who have a terrible record of storing nuclear waste and sinking their old subs.

Like most things, market forces will drive innovation and our government has been very poor in producing innovation itself.

Sorry, but the Democratic record?

No drilling or refineries

No new nuclear

zero growth models of conservation

dams

lower speed limits (part of conservation)

no real effort ot rebuilding energy grid

corn subsidies

no real effort on clean coal or carbon sequestering

no shale extraction

arrtificial irrigation to support farming and civilian water supplies to areas formerly inhospitiable

Don't assume my affiliations, Sturg. I don't have any. If you think the trillion-dollar oil industry won't have the ear of a Democratic administration, you're delusional. Money talks, bullshit walks.

okie doke.......but i was not assuming you are a conservative.....i just proffered an observation which had little to do with you .........but you made a grande leap in your post........ie from my post to my advocation of a fascist govt.......you must be on a trampoline......

Posted by: Maxtrue | July 5, 2008 2:11 PM

Add subsidized tire pressure gauges to the list.

Champ

Oil could be flowing in rivers with no drilling necessary and I would be yowling to stop using the crud. You may not care if your grandchildren live in a poisonous atmosphere filling their bodies with destructive chemicals, I do.

Don't go get a sperm count for damages done or a measure of your body load of chemicals. You probably won't like the results.

If you want to examine Democratic approaches to energy look here:

http://stubbornfacts.us/domestic_policy/environment/opecs_answer_to_democrats_plan_to_sue

If you use the SF search engine you will find all the links to domestic oil and gas resources, the actual bills advocated by the Democrats, the state of cellulosic and alternative energy research, the cost/benefit ratios and even links to climate research and debates.

40 years ago the experts said we would have run out of fossile fuel by now and that the world's polulation would be close to 10 billion....LOL

One would thinka day after our Birthday it would be clear our Founding Fathers did not want to make government to redistributor of wealth, the politically correct regulator of innovation and markets nor the prime engineers of our future. We the people decide that and government serves each one of us as individuals. Did I have a say in those corn subsidies?

Champ is exactly right.

Let me use an annoying word.

I'd rather my grandchildren lived a short life with freedom than a long one under the thumb of a socialist police state.

Oops. The word I was going to use was "Paradigm", but I decided against it.

I'd rather my grandchildren lived a short life with freedom than a long one under the thumb of a socialist police state.

Posted by: champ | July 5, 2008 2:24 PM

ooooooooooooookay..........guess I'll go and make some soup now........

The majority want a "Nanny-State", Max. I think we are both talking to a collective wall. People don't believe in freedom anymore. Life is scary, and many people would rather just have the hard decisions made for them so they can be free to watch TV and go to ballgames and all that silly shit.

See what I mean?

Jamie, oil is not the prime culprit in estrogenic materials and other toxins in our environment, much driven to make artificial substitutes for OIL.

No where did I say oil production should not have environmental safeguards. Yeah, we landed people on the moon but can't filter our pollution. Stop flying.

In fact airline pollution from jets lowers the tmean global emperature as proven days after 9/11 when air traffic stopped. You are advocating a simplistic pair of glasses. China is the largest green house gas generator and they are not stopping coal burning or gasoline use. We must find better applications of such techology until alternatives are really full scale and affordable.

And how the hell do you think fuel cells are made and filled? I bet Obama cuts the DOD program on fuel cells too. And electrical cars? Where does that power come from, solar cells? No.

Let's stop manufacturering altogether and go back to clean living in caves. OBL would have a good laugh.

We HAVE cleaned our air to a large degree and stopped the use of lead amd mercury. We HAVE made good progress and Democrats should be proud of that. Plastic saved trees. Lets go back to paper? Techology is closing in on biodegradable plastic.

Humanity is complicated and I think the loss of species is a bigger problem than extracting shale oil. And I believe buring down wood produces significant pollution dwarfed by a single great volcanic eruption.
Yep, life is a very complicated equation. Change one variable and you affect a million more.

Maxtrue; 1:04 pm.....ME TOO, 1:33 pm...your right about Alberta's control problem, Canadian Conservatives are American Republikans.

I never really used to think about it, actually I never used to really think.... but now I hate oil, oil trucks, oil drilling, oil tankers, and especially oilmen. But the worst part is, I LOVE to drive.......

Way to answer your own questions, chief. Must be why you're so smart.

Yeah Champ, our Founding Brothers and their wives would be greatly depressed seeing the "majority" dosen't really want Independence. They want Nanny to make things right at the expense of Indvidual Freedom. I can only think of Adam's last lines in Part 6 of the TV documentary of his life. I guess he is repenting in Heaven.

And at the same time Democrats blast the NG tanker deal favoring Made in America. How unAmerican to allow a US military partner to participate in our collective defense. And all those jobs despite the thousands created in the South East should ever go to allies? I am ashamed for much of what goes by Liberal these days. Once, Liberal meant opening up our contracts to our allies, opening up the propserity of other through free trade. What a joke.

It isn't like talking to a wall, but more like talking to a convert to a fundie religion. I see why many flock to Obama, he is the new Nannymiester advocating nothing more than government mandates paid for by the redistribution of wealth. Is it any wonder that the Mullahs have called him the new American Goorby that will destroy America from within.

Hense Obama's phony pivot to center as most Hillary Blog related Obama attacks have been purged from the internet....LOL

How Orwellian....

Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Before the tobacco falls out.

"Taxes are just a yoke around the neck of each of us. Taxes = slavery."- Champ

What an absurd comment! Especially considering all the tax supported services you are/will use today...this minute. What was that about civic classes?

I thank you Champ for bringing Craig's concept for the Declaration of Independence full circle. We started with Nanny England and ended with Nanny Obama/Pelosi.

Perhaps if we observed the eovlution of the word Liberal, we would understand the subtle flow of history.

Never before has the Democratic electroate stood in such contrast ot the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution while pretending to be the sacred guardians of such Founding truth. Such is the paradigm of present politics and memetic evolution of Liberal Man.

I prefer divided government for now. Not another perfect strom favoring our decline.

I didn't ask for any of those services. Speaks to your logic. Give me a burden, then ask me to be thankful for it. Absurdity is subjective.

I think Champ meant taxes are a necessary evil. For some, taxes are mana from Heaven. That was the point. And raising the capital gains tax now to 28% would show Obama how wrong he is in his economic reckoning.

"I didn't ask for any of those services."

That even more ridiculous.

Yeah Max; not to stoke your ego, but I wouldn't mind having a beer with you and picking your brain. This forum is better suited to banality and one-upsmanship (of which I am as guilty as the next), than an honest debate with the aim of challenging perceptions and attempting to find some truth. Guess we'll just have to work with what we've got.

Thanks for the thought, Max, but don't put words in my mouth. I meant what I said. DB is an idiot. Let's leave it at that. I'm going to go mow the lawn.

Back to the birth of our nation ---

If our fore-fathers were the paragons of virtue we seem to wish they were, I'm not so sure we'd be any happier with them. For one thing, they'd be boring as hell.

I think, also, that it might be easier to discount what they said as, Sure - easy for you to say and do.

We might not find it as easy to criticize them.

They are proof and reassurance that people can be capable of great wrongs and great rights at almost the same time. The man who soared into history with the words 'all men were created equal' stopped short of including people of a different color and women.

It has to be faced and accepted, and then improved.
Give them their credit - they started it and left themselves open to to public criticism, and they have surely taken their kumps....... but we have to continue it, never being able to finish it.

I love the Declaration because it was fair warning on paper and signed, and because it must have shocked the s**t out of the self-satisfied fat cats who thought they were the cat's meow. (oh,my!) That's an odd kick in my other-wise nice gallop...I love to see self-righteous people be made un-comfortable. Take Queen Victoria, for example, to a southern California
beach.

I love the Constitution because it has within itself the method of correcting and changing it - an admission that 'we might have made some mistakes here', and it you notice any, here's what to do. In order to be right all the time, you must admit it and then you'll be right again.

So here's to the writers and thinkers and workers and gofers and supporters and soldiers and citizens who got it all started. It was a hard hard birth but a successful delivery, and we're lucky to be present today.

ben franklin:

"There are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. ... I doubt to whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. ... It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies..."

the avalon project at yale law school......website and research on madison's notes for the constitutional convention:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/debcont.htm

I need to go off topic, here, and respond to a few posts from thursday.

Champ - I wasn't letting things from this blog get me down - it was the subject matter, and it gets me down everytime I think about it, so it wasn't this place. I 'know' about some-many-most of the monstrosities of history, and have heard discussions and explanations of them. I just can't bear to think of them too much, and I felt I was participating in a good conversation with Mr D, but I didn't want to talk anymore. I really meant what I said about everyone should watch the movie 'Night in Fog.' It is 30 minutes long and might be at a video rental place, but it certainly should be at Netflix. I wouldn't show it to any kids under maybe 14 or 15 -
among other reasons, they couldn't process it well enough. Also, it is very rough. But folks, do watch it.

Oh, yes, I didn't think anyone was telling me how to think, especially you. I understood it as you meant it.
Thank you.

Chloe - As you wrote your post, I was getting my antibiotic, and of course, it was amoxicillin. It helped big time at first then slowed down. I had the most annoying soreness on my jaw line and down into the right side of my throat all day yesterday, and it made me so mad. The only pain pills I take are Ascriptin which is expensive aspirin with maalox, and I was out of them. Add to that the fact that my 'good' hip was feeling its arthritis, and I'm still kinda numb from food poisoning last saturday (I threw up all night), and I was one wrung-out dish rag at the party Friday. I shouldn't have been blogging at all the night before.

Our party was delightful, tho I added nothing, and the kids were enchanting. We started @ 3. and at night it got chilly so we got out the fire pie. When I dragged my
sorry body in @ 12:30. it was about 50 out. I was so cold, I undressed and got into bed with a wool blanket over me and finally stopped shivering and shaking after 10 minutes or so, and woke up at 9 am - lights on all over. Today the tooth is better. So am I. Still talking too much. bye

ben franklin again, on the last day of the convention.....from the avalon project madison's notes

Docr. FRANKLIN rose with a speech in his hand, which he had reduced to writing for his own conveniency, [FN2] and which Mr. Wilson read in the words following.

Mr. President

I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others. Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion, think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said "I don't know how it happens, Sister but I meet with no body but myself, that's always in the right-Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison."

maybe that was franklin's view of paradigm shifts.....

Me again.

I love that quote from Franklin that he is astonished that the constitution comes as close to perfection and it does -- that is EXACTLY how I feel about the constitution and our founders. They weren't perfect but they came close enough to give us a great send-off.

Champ

How about a short life with autism or any other number of childhood diseases that have shown a steady increase in the last 50 years. You better hope the medical care is free because the children won't be.

"China is the largest green house gas generator and they are not stopping coal burning or gasoline use. We must find better applications of such techology until alternatives are really full scale and affordable."

And the U.S. could pay back the billions we've borrowed from them by inventing and installing the green technologies they need seeing as how the populations of many villages are dying off from the cancers and other diseases caused by the pollution.

Did you see the news about the tons of algae they are having to clear from waterways to hold the boating events for the Olympics?

The algae blooms and dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico are growing every year.

Woweee, everyone was prolific last night and this morning.

Where to start? First, independence and a Liberal government are not diametrically opposed ideas. Canada is both, quite often to the consternation of the Bush admin. Our own Prime MInister, who was elected with the same consultants who got Bush elected twice, is so afraid to be seen with either Bush or McGeezer that he arranged to be 'out of town' during McCodger's visit last week. The reason we're not in Iraq? A Liberal government who said, "wait a minute.. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11!" ... and then withstood attacks and boycotts.

Nanny state? If you include healthcare, a refugee system, and environmental protection in it, then sign me up!

and oh my, i'm sorry that we're so stuck in banality as to come between Max and champ's beer-sharing tete-a-tete. Please gentlemen, just skip down to your oh so intelligent posts.

Sturge, you have missed some opportunities for a "Yeah, but...." comment today. I'm gonna go visit the folks from Long Island tonight , since WWIII broke out this afternoon.

OK, I'll attempt another self-imposed hiatus. I don't want to monopolize the forum. I made it at least 2 weeks last time. I'll gun for a month now. Don't reply to my posts or pose any questions to me; you'll just make me post again.

duly noted, champ

Here's a cute quiz about the United States government

http://games.toast.net/independence/

30 questions. 24 and above is considered excellent.

30 questions. 24 and above is considered excellent.

Somebody emailed me that the other day....I screwed up some of the amendment questions...only got 27. I think there were a couple of things I lucked up and guessed right on though...can't remember which ones.

http://obomonation.blogspot.com/

You will find Hillary supporters at the above site and many things said there I read here first.

Given what "we" Hillary supporters witnessed during the campaign, can you believe the pivot Obama is now making? And he called some of his "change" now, Hillary being a Republican Lite just months ago. So he trashed the Clintons and now tries to run on some of their positions? That is called BS.

This is the principled Liberal Messiah? Before some shoot down others with more Libertarian or centrist views, or even moderate Liberals opposed to Obamanator, consider the evolving position on the Left.

Sounds like Bush but in reverse ideology. Just as dumb and just as mistaken. At least that what it looks like from the center people.......

Max,
You are right. Thanks for the link.

Patsi

I got 29 but I'm a history nut, and it was an amendment question that tripped me up. I'm enjoying the quizzes CNN is doing such as

What is the Statue of Liberty's real name and what is on the tablet she is carrying?

I couldn't have summarized all you have ever had to say any better than that.

Dance on bright boy. May something other than the cha cha might actually find you not alone come New Years......

Nuts! I give up. We refer to them as "refugees," Max, not "illegals." I realize it's a whole different way of looking at it, but nonetheless, that's how we view it.

I got a 24. Sad. More dance steps...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO1p2IxZA0U&feature=related

Max
Thanks for the link earlier.Woo you make me swoon with all your facts.I thankyou as a Hillary supporter you really state things well and with the facts nothing but the facts!!!! A Fan

Obama in Berlin?
Der Spiegel is reporting that Obama may give a speech in front of the Brandenburg Gate — which would, of course, lead to another round of articles wondering if Obama is the "liberal Reagan."

The most arrogant, unqualified, dangerous candidate in history.

lead to another round of articles wondering if Obama is the "liberal Reagan."

Posted by: Berlin? | July 5, 2008 9:33 PM

Ich bin ein Berliner
Nah just another doughnut.

"According to an urban legend, Kennedy allegedly made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry

"ennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut".

I see everyone is enjoying their evening here on the Trail Mix.

:::dancing and swooning::::

It's nice to see everyone so happy, maybe the holiday was just what the doc ordered.

Hey Nonny nonny

"Ich bin ein Berliner
Nah just another doughnut.

Urban legend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner#Jelly_doughnut_urban_legend

Max.. do YOU get that I haven't mentioned Founding (or any other) Fathers? I was talking about Liberal governments and what YOU call the Nanny state. And just HOW do you think we've grown in population in the past 30 years? Refugees and immigration! And that whole welfare and healthcare crappola? They work harder than "entitled" North Americans, and use the healthcare and welfare system less.

K.. takin my Canadian ass back to my side of the border. Nite everyone!

I only drink Sassy water....but thanks for the advice.

Hold on there mountie. I never said immigrants were not the backbone of our country. We are a nation of immigrants and I favor amnesty. How the hell is that advocating a Nanny State dude? Healthcare is designed here to be paid by what people put in, The welfare component I support is for the safety net to prevent those who don't have healthcare not to run up the charges at the ER. That is a far cry from a government run healthcare system or a Liberal welfare system that now Obama want to take credit from Clinton for having reformed. What a friggin joke. Bill worked to get people OFF welfare.

So I welcome legal immigrants and even suggest amnesty now with new border security. I advocate for help for lower income people who find health insurance too expensive and the continued safety net for the disabled, very poor and eldely. THIS IS NOT A NANNY STATE.

And this entire post was in the shadow of the D of I that out Founder created. Liberal government can either advance the Nanny State or Reform which the Clinton Referendum proposed. Obots reject that referendum and cast Liberal Clintons in with Nixon. So understand the battle Tylenol, because this battle will eventually come to Canada. And the joke will not just be those on re-runs of SCTV......

With that a good night......

Yep, here's come a real jelly donut to Berlin. Just watch him wax JFK being NOTHING like JFK. It is outrageous, simply outrageous. Obama is far from JFK and has no standing on issues of national security , NATO or European affairs by the same criteria he thinks the GOP has no standing on OBL.

THe BULLSHIT express is about to fly.........

"Spend a few days in western Europe talking about American politics and you discover that you are in deepest Obamaland. Not much different from Berkeley, California, or the South Side of Chicago.
As a woman put it to me in Paris: "We want America back.'' "

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/04/obama.europe/

The most arrogant, unqualified, dangerous candidate in history is G. W. Bush - and he remains the same.

Night all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t61oJT-d900&feature=related

I'm sorry, but I have a right to my opinion and my reaction.

Everything Obama does makes me dislike him more.

He wants a bigger stadium to make his acceptance speech, for the benefit of all the people who want to see it.

The fact that it is the anniversary of MartinLuther King Jr's greatest speech and testament is coincidental. It's just for the benefit of the people BHO wants to speak for.

Barack Obama is NOT, repeat NOT, Martin Luther King
Jr. He is not JFK. This is Hollywood working with the Chicago machine and it is so heav-handed, it reminds me of an old Judy Garland-Mickey Rooney musical.

Of course, that's my opinion, but I also think it's so over the top that it might be his un-doing. He needs those of us who remember Judy Garland-Mickey Rooney movies whether he wants to admit it or not.

bettyboo,

You posted:

"everything Obama does makes me dislike him more."
I thought I was the only one feeling that.

You don't ever have to be sorry that you have an opinion. It's a good one and you're right, you are entitled to it.

I especially like your Judy Garland-Micky Rooney musical reference!

" So am I. Still talking too much. bye"
Posted by: bethyboo | July 5, 2008 3:53 PM

Never Betthyboo. Don't ever stop talking.
I know there are many who enjoy your posts.

ps (when one antibiotic stops working, it's time to start another type. The dentist or doctor may prescribe one by phone. Amoxycillin isn't the best antibiotic out there for teeth, in my experience). And they usually won't work on the teeth until you get the infection down.

nite

"everything Obama does makes me dislike him more."
I thought I was the only one feeling that. prof marcia

Before I go, regarding the above, me too.

"I got 29 but I'm a history nut, and it was an amendment question that tripped me up. I'm enjoying the quizzes CNN is doing such as"

Jamie -- You'd think a history major would have done better than 27! Ha! But my interest was European...and most of my college work as far as America went was in the Southwest or women's history. But the frightening thing that was said in the email I got about that test is how poorly young people do on it.

If Craig is around, it's time for a new topic ... :)

Here's a cute quiz about the United States government

http://games.toast.net/independence/

30 questions. 24 and above is considered excellent.

Posted by: Jamie | July 5, 2008 6:30 PM

I did it jamie and i got 24 out of 30... The President's Day Quiz was a bit harder for me... still did.. .ok but extra work needed there, and on the Supreme Court quiz I got only 1 wrong :-)

It was fun, and I've passed it on.

Tom

so what exactly is "jumping the shark"?

Tom -- Jumping the shark means going one too many steps toward absurdity.

from Wiki:

"The phrase refers to a scene in a three-part episode of the American TV series, Happy Days, first broadcast on September 20, 1977. In the "Hollywood" episode, Fonzie (Henry Winkler), wearing swim trunks and his trademark leather jacket, jumps over a penned-in shark while water skiing.

Even before "jumping the shark" was employed as a pop culture term, the episode in question was cited many times as an example of what can happen to otherwise high-quality shows when they stay on the air too long in the face of waning interest. The infamous scene was seen by many as betraying the Happy Days' 1950s setting by cashing in on 1970s fads of Evel Knievel[3] and Jaws.

AH.. thanks Patsi. I think that saying has come around after I left the states...

Oye! It was long before I left... but you know, I didn't know it. And I worked in college radio. Anyway, I hear it a lot now, but before not. "hear it" on websites that is. :)

I'm with you, Tom -- I didn't hear that phrase until a long time after that episode. The goofy thing is, I remembered seeing it. It just seemed kind of dumb to me...and it occured to me later that the phrase was right...interest was waning and it was a semi-desperate play for excitement.

Tom Check your email soon...I have something funny to send you....

I have no apologies to offer the Democratic Party -- Obama doesn't want my vote anyway! According to my morning newspaper, he's writing off Tennessee...ha!

"Obama doesn't need Tennessee," said David A. Bositis, an expert on racial politics at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies in Washington. "Obama's base was highly educated, upper-income voters … Obama's not going to try to recast his campaign and claim that he's going to be the candidate of rural America. He's from Chicago."

This is off topic, except that I have some friends from here on Facebook too.

like to play this game called TV Squares, which is on Facebook. I have many games that are not completed, so I started sending "nudges" (messages) to the other player which says "it's your turn"... blah blah blah.

Suddenly Facebook got this ridiculous idea that I was sending spam. Never mind that these messages were sent out of the TV Squares platform and they all said the same thing "it's your turn, make my day" or whatver.

Anyway, I am now "blocked" by an administrator for "spamming" and wow am I pissed. I've written to Facebook and told them to delete my profile. I'm happier on MYSpace where this kind of shit has never happened to me.

I admire blocking spammers, but sending opponents a notice that it's their turn to play... I mean c'mon.

Anyway, I am just venting, and offering this example as a word to the wise. Apparently instead of controlling real spammers, they will simply control anyone they feel is "too active" even if it's done via a games platform that has a pre-written message on it.

PFFFFFFT off FACEBOOK...

oh and Happy Sunday all.

Tom

Yeah Patsi! Thanks... I've sent it to my MySpace friends.

ET for President!

I like it :-)

I don't quite understand Facebook and all those sites anyway, Tom....the one time I tried to "visit" the page of one of my friend's daughter, somehow I ALMOST started a page that accessed my entire address book and sent emails to my business associates asking them to be "my friend." How embarrassing would THAT have been?

Ha! Tom -- glad it came through!

Babies. Stinky and I bypassed the birth thing and chose adoption. Our kids were abandoned back when Koreans were disparately poor and lived a hand-to-mouth existence. We wonder the fate of their birth mothers.

There is one young lady in our family in Korea. She is pregnant with her first child. As soon as she believed herself to be pregnant, she stopped working. (She is an operating nurse in one of the large hospitals in her city.) For her, her baby is too precious to put at risk in what many people believe is a very hazardous environment.

I was trying to think when the dramatic change occurred in maternity care in our country. I guess it was during the Reagan Administration with his economic policies effectively mandating that every adult in a family had to work outside the home.

We are going to live with his legacy forever.

ET, I agree with you about the Facebook 'experience'. I think I'm going to back away from it. All the contacts on it are really nice, but it is just too 'busy' for me and I don't like letting down my security to the extent that it encourages.

Flatus,
I'm thinking intently on what you said.
Isn't that change mandating every adult work one of the changes to that made genders a little more equal?

Flatus -- what a wonderful story about the decision to adopt. And having seen the photos, it's obvious you have a fabulous family!

I'm not a particular fan of Cindy McCain, but I will say that the story about her finding the child who would become their daughter, and taking her to John -- telling him they must adopt this child, is inspiring.

And about your Reagan statement. My God, you are so right. Even Nixon was not so damaging. With Reagan we began the march toward a country owned by big business, no regulations, mentally ill in the streets, the working class living on credit, a complete disrespect for what the media so loves to call "the under class."

In fact, if I am pissed most about anything this election cycle, it may be the continual hammering at working class, under educated or whatever.

I was raised in a family where my mother's side had money and my father's was raised in a sod dugout. My dad used to laugh that the best way to tell the difference was to attend one of the funerals. My mom's family funerals involved a lot of long black cars. On his side's funerals, there was every chance that people might be jump-starting each others' old pickup trucks.

But he taught me to respect what jobs people held. If you were a ditch digger, and a very good one, then in my dad's view, you were as good as the banker, and actually better, if the banker happened to be a dud.

Chloe -- I think that the larger problem re: who works -- is that what it came down to was a lack of decent wages all the way around.

As far as maternity care, what a travesty. When my daughter was born in German, I was in the hos[pital a week. My son, born in the US in 1973, three days. Now it is in and out. I think it was Jamie who mentioned post-partum depression being connected to women leaving hospitals and going home with little care...I thought it was a good point.

In fact, if I am pissed most about anything this election cycle, it may be the continual hammering at working class, under educated or whatever." Patsi

Patsi, I so agree.
These things were every bit as offensive as the mysogyny. But you don't hear that much coverage on it.

One other thing I do like (among the very few) about Cindy McCain is her continued hatred of George Bush for the 2000 insults. She's been asked about her husband's sucking up to Bush, and she made it very clear that she wasn't so forgiving of what he'd done.

"I think that the larger problem re: who works -- is that what it came down to was a lack of decent wages all the way around."

Yes Patsi, We still don't have equal pay for everyone. I was just thinking of a little more equality being one of the possible side affects of more women working and becoming independent.

You probably have a good point, about some post-partum depression being connected to women leaving hospitals too soon. But I'm not sure that a lot of the cause isn't hormonal. Of course, that would mean that it was always there, but now we've named it.

Chloe, more equal? I suppose, but being equal in misery really sucks. Consider using retail marketing as an example. Up until the 70s retail stores were closed one day on the weekends and only open one evening during the week (until 9 PM). A finite number of dollars was spent during those hours. Then, with the new environment, retailers had the people power enabling them to be open 7-days a week with extended shopping hours every day of the week. Did the number of dollars spent change? Not significantly. Instead, salaries were reduced (through loss of benefits and inflation), and the cost of product was reduced (through a dramatic relaxing of import restrictions). So, although two people were working in the stores, they were effectively compensated at a level much lower than when one worker handled the job.

I don't have any problem with Cindy McCain. She's a little old fashioned in her values, which I kinda like. She's outspoken, disciplined, loyal and extremely patriotic. And strong character.

"being equal in misery really sucks"

Can't argue with that. Well put.

It takes two now to make one salary, if you look at it like that. I do love the convenience of everything being opened so many more hours. But that's the selfish part of me that enjoys that.

I'm not overlooking your point. Just found the equality thing an interesting side effect.

prof marcia - I have a you tube click for you. It's a short film. It includes manikins, and it's interesting. I have to wait for my daughter to tell me the name of it. Just wanted to give you a heads up. : )

"But I'm not sure that a lot of the cause isn't hormonal. Of course, that would mean that it was always there, but now we've named it. "

Good point, Chloe. I think there's a hormonal aspect in addition to expectations. I swear that my daughter had the belief that you bring your baby home and even though you miss a little sleep, it's all so beautiful that you are sailing all the time! ROFL!

She had an emergency Caesarian, bought a month-early baby home and tried to breast feed....baby so small that it meant waking her up every two hours. My daughter was just sinking. Luckily I got there within days and straightened her out!

Flatus yes, I find Facebook confusing. I find MySpace much easier to navigate. Plus on Facebook they send all these 'notifications" and stuff, and I don't get it at all !!

It's Sunday.. be nice to one another :)

"Luckily I got there within days and straightened her out!"

Patsi,
I hadn't actually thought of that regarding the possible depression: The overwhelming burden of the reality vs expectation.

What first time mothers expect and the reality of the unimaginable work involved can be in great contrast. Premature births, difficult deliveries, health problems, a fussy baby. These can make the adjustment even more difficult. Thank goodness for the love.

What we expect parenthood to be like and what it really is can be two totally different things. Your daughter was lucky to have you to help her through the transition.

There's a show on the tele that is teaching teens what it like to have children...called "Baby Borrowers. " I have not see it but,
I have heard it is really do a good job at dispelling some "ideas" that young girls have about becoming a mommy.

ET,
sorry you are having trouble with Facebook. I like seeing you there. : (

"Your daughter was lucky to have you to help her through the transition."

Ha! Oh my God, it was something. I had to remind her that when she was an infant in Germany, I started most of my letters to my mother with our private joke: "Well, this baby is still trying to kill me."

I'd grown up with four older sisters, so I knew what was coming.

The first thing I insisted on was that my daughter stop trying to breast feed every feeding. Of course, you have to fight the breast Nazis to do that....but if it's damn near killing you, you have to be realistic. Her husband was only too happy to get up for a couple of those night feedings.

But mainly, she just needed to be reminded that those first weeks can be tough, that they'll go by faster than you think, and getting tired and frustrated has nothing to do with how much you love the baby.

Bethy
Just catching up.Glad your tooth is better and your posts are so real. I also share your feeling regarding Sen.Obama,just don't know where to go without Hillary.I still want her to be the nominee even though i no thats not happening.I wonder why i have never felt this level of dissatisfaction before?It is what it is but what to do?

Patsi
I so like you even though we don't know one another!! Your respect for all comes through loud and clear.I as an autoworker appreciate that.I really loved the funeral references.It was the same in my family my moms side had money my dads working class Tennesee transplants that came to Flint,Michigan for the G.M. auto jobs.I think the reason i was a Democrat all my life is because of the big tent the party offered.I see the tent getting smaller and smaller with the current crowd that is in control..........

But mainly, she just needed to be reminded that those first weeks can be tough, that they'll go by faster than you think, and getting tired and frustrated has nothing to do with how much you love the baby."

Patsi,
I'm printing your post to give to my pregnant daughter. Thanks.

".I think the reason i was a Democrat all my life is because of the big tent the party offered.I see the tent getting smaller and smaller with the current crowd that is in control.........."

I see it shrinking as well, Tony....when the party starts to diss the elderly and working class, we've got a big problem.

Hillary.I still want her to be the nominee even though i no thats not happening.I wonder why i have never felt this level of dissatisfaction before?'" tonyb39

Tony,
You're not alone.
My husband was looking up at a clip of Obama on TV this morning, and turned to me and said he can't ever remember disliking a presidential candidate this much. I had to point out George Bush, but of course, for him, that went without saying.

With Obama, never has a man gotten so much credit for so little.

Thanks Nick.

there should have been a lot more dissatisfaction with Kerry, but there wasn't.........the media played dean's scream and everybody fell in line.........

I didn't see Kerry's faults at the time though, Sturge. Now I do.

"called "Baby Borrowers. " I have not see it but,
I have heard it is really do a good job at dispelling some "ideas" that young girls have about becoming a mommy. "

Ha -- Burrito....so true! As I said, I was VERY lucky to have had older sisters with babies as I was growing up. Because by being in another country, and the husband in military intelligence where he'd be on "alert" for weeks at a time....I was pretty much on my own with the baby. Not even a phone in the apartment to call home and gripe to my mom!

The first time Tracy projectile vomited I thought I'd have a heart attack! There was a phenomenon I hadn't witnessed. Thank God for Dr. Spock!

".........the media played dean's scream and everybody fell in line........."

Ain't that the truth, sturge! I knew when I first saw the clip that something was wrong....finally realized that he was speaking to a huge crowd and trying to shout above the noise, which the media had deleted. Unbelievable. Even after it was pointed out and CNN played the clip with the sound added, the drumbeat never stopped. And the clip was played ad nauseum without the crowd noise. I think that is election rigging.

In the OMG category....am I just jaded, or is this the dumbest "game" for the Dems to decide is a money-raiser?

"Forget the rubber chicken dinners.

There's a new game in town: cornhole.

And Gov. Ted Strickland has let it be known he will soon hold a cornhole tournament to raise money for his campaign, with regional competitions around Ohio, including one in North Canton.

Not familiar with cornhole? It's a bean bag-tossing game that's popular on campuses and at tailgate parties.

''The tournament is a fun way of bringing Ohioans around a great game with Ohio roots,'' said Alex Goepfert, a spokesman for the Ohio Democratic Party.

I think they ought to try a pancake breakfast.

---Danny Deckchair

Chloe
I try and look at the big picture with Obama and a possible vote for him and it just ain't happening!! I can't vote McCain as a gay man i fear he will set us back,his support of the California ammendment to ban gay marriage bothers me.I have two friends in the state that just got married again for the second time. The first marrige was nullified by the state and now the threat looms again.Where does Obama stand on gay rights i don't know?There's so much about the Senator that we just don't know.But it comes down still to trust and he doesn't have mine, yet there's a long time till November.Please earn my vote Sen.Obama talk to us lunch bucket types,older people,women.The current CNN poll regarding Hillary supporters says it all.Some with say sour grapes and again i say piss off.............

Avalon Project, Yale University, Madison notes on the Constitutional Convention:

Mr. L. MARTIN contended at great length and with great eagerness that the General Govt. was meant merely to preserve the State Governts.: not to govern individuals: that its powers ought to be kept within narrow limits; that if too little power was given to it, more might be added; but that if too much, it could never be resumed: that individuals as such have little to do but with their own States; that the Genl. Govt. has no more to apprehend from the States composing the Union, while it pursues proper measures, that [FN2] a Govt. over individuals has to apprehend from its subjects: that to resort to the Citizens at large for their sanction to a new Governt. will be throwing them back into a State of Nature: that the dissolution of the State Govts. is involved in the nature of the process: that the people have no right to do this without the consent of those to whom they have delegated their power for State purposes: through their tongue only they can speak, through their ears, only, can hear: that the States have shewn a good disposition to comply with the Acts, of Congs. weak, contemptibly weak as that body has been; and have failed through inability alone to comply: that the heaviness of the private debts, and the waste of property during the war, were the chief causes of this inability: that he did not conceive the instances mentioned by Mr. Madison of compacts between Va. & Md. between Pa. & N. J. or of troops raised by Massts. for defence against the Rebels, to be violations of the articles of confederation-that an equal vote in each State was essential to the federal idea, and was founded in justice & freedom, not merely in policy: that tho' the States may give up this right of sovereignty, yet they had not, and ought not: that the States like individuals were in a State of nature equally sovereign & free. In order to prove that individuals in a State of nature are equally free & independent he read passages from Locke, Vattel, Lord Summers- Priestly. To prove that the case is the same with States till they surrender their equal sovereignty, he read other passages in Locke & Vattel, and also Rutherford: that the States being equal cannot treat or confederate so as to give up an equality of votes without giving up their liberty: that the propositions on the table were a system of slavery for IO States: that as Va. Masts. & Pa. have 42/90 of the votes they can do as they please without a miraculous Union of the other ten: that they will have nothing to do, but to gain over one of the ten to make them compleat masters of the rest: that they can then appoint an Execute. & Judiciary & legislate [FN3] for them as they please: that there was & would continue a natural predilection & partiality in men for their own States; that the States, particularly the smaller, would never allow a negative to be exercised over their laws: that no State in ratifying the Confederation had objected to the equality of votes; that the complaints at present run not agst. this equality but the want of power; that 16 members from Va. would be more likely to act in concert than a like number formed of members from different States; that instead of a junction of the small States as a remedy, he thought a division of the large States would be more eligible.-This was the substance of a speech which was continued more than three hours. He was too much exhausted he said to finish his remarks, and reminded the House that he should tomorrow, resume them

Tony,
reg. your 11:49 post,
Do you think the gay marriage issue is up to the state. I'm with you on that one. But will the feds control that and abortion? Or will the states?

http://jdrhoades.blogspot.com/2008/07/damn-it.html

"An Army medic whose image made the nation's front pages in the early days of the war in Iraq died in Pinehurst Saturday"
A casualty of the war that will never get written down.

Something else in the same line
My father in law spent a restless night on the 4th. It is the same every 4th, for over 60 years now. The wars end, victory declared, but some wounds last forever.

Jack

reposting because it's such an amazing site:

the avalon project at yale law school......website and research on madison's notes for the constitutional convention:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/debcont.htm

Dog
Thankyou!! I appreciate any and all links and info both blogs have to offer.I will keep an open mind and decide for myself.I agree C- Span is a gem!! I said in an earlier post there's a long time till November and plenty of time to learn what i need to learn to make an informed choice.

Dog, I'll agree that they are both from the middle class. But, at some point they must have left that class. Was it when they went on to law school? Was it when they achieved financial success in their employment? Was it when they were recognized for their own distinctive achievements as leaders in their chosen professions?

Many people would say money is what divides because it is money that allows people to choose their children's schools, or their social clubs, or their mode of travel, or where they live.

I think by those measures, they have clearly left the middle class.

Jesse Helms died on the 4th of July.

What better tribute for Helms than his own political ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIyewCdXMzk

If he really loved his country he would have died years ago.

Jack

interesting take on whither FL

http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080706/CAPITOLNEWS/807050337&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

July 6, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
The Truth Commission
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
When a distinguished American military commander accuses the United States of committing war crimes in its handling of detainees, you know that we need a new way forward.

“There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes,” Antonio Taguba, the retired major general who investigated abuses in Iraq, declares in a powerful new report on American torture from Physicians for Human Rights. “The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Chloe
Good question.I don't know the answer? I will admit to being conflicted on this...I would love for it to be a civil rights issue and abortion rights too,but at the same time i hate to see the Feds stamping out states rights.......Yet some things involving human rights have to be done at the Federal level?Conflicted and can probably be convinced by people more informed....

dog's eye

I can see where people are irked by the "Presentation" aspects of the current Obama campaign. Someone should get to Axelrod and company and let them know there is a difference between confidence and hubris. As pointed out above there is just a shade too much of the JFK and/or MLK imaging.

On the few times I have seen either Barack or Michelle being natural either just sitting or with the children or answering a stray non press question, they come off fairly well. We do know he has a bit of a temper and snaps out answers when irritate, which given the length of this campaign is understandable.

I'm resigned to voting for him, but would be a great deal more enthusiastic if he names Sen. Clinton as VP. Why fight so hard to not name her when that one gesture would insure a landslide that is just waiting to happen?

Now on the positions ... well a couple of days ago we were joking that he didn't really need a VP since he had already adopted all of Hillary's positions, all he had to do was borrow her pantsuits. : )

Crist must be gunning for the VP spot. He went and got engaged

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5873582.html

This is what I meant by when Obama is being natural

http://www.esoterically.net/weblog/

This is a great picture and should be the image they are selling to the American public ... not the know it all bs that keeps coming across from both managers and media

if MSM is having a slow news week, this story could develop into fodder for the pundits.... ahh summer: life, liberty and the pursuit of hippyness

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080706/ap_on_re_us/rainbow_arrests

"...i hate to see the Feds stamping out states rights...
Conflicted and can probably be convinced by people more informed"....Posted by: tonyb39 | July 6, 2008 12:20 PM

Tony,
Maybe Max will come on today and fill us in with the facts. I know he's discussed abortion and gay marriage in the past, but I can't remember all that he said.

"subliminal brainwashing" Nick 1:11 PM

Nick,
Good word for it. Brainwashing. That's exactly what the media is trying to do.

I don't disagree that the media attempt to influence us at ALL times...call it brainwashing if you wish...but at least acknowledge that they do it on both sides of the political spectrum...conservative and liberal.

" they do it on both sides of the political spectrum...conservative and liberal."

Indeed. And they are both undermining any trust I ever had in the media.

Nick, Thank you for the kind words. They mean a lot to me.

Patsi and Nick...I totally agree with both your comments. My trust in the media is gone...both politically and in terms of anything else that requires information. I now simply assume that it's slanted toward whatever the media outlet's corporate bias wishes and/or imposes.

"The wars end, victory declared, but some wounds last forever."

Yes, Jack -- I fear it's true for so many. Sorry about your father-in-law's 4th.

"I now simply assume that it's slanted toward whatever the media outlet's corporate bias wishes and/or imposes."

Harbor -- I'm to the point now that I take almost everything that is said and try to figure out which business interest is promoting that viewpoint, and how it might adversely affect the populace.

Well, I'm glad everyone confirms the pathetic effort at journalism by media. So is anybody but me asking Craig to fess up on whether he is for or against the new Freedom of the Press bill, or even the NewSpeak called the Fairness Doctrine?

Thanks to those Hillary supporters standing beside their metaphorical guns. Every time Obama does something new, I dislike him more. The candidate doing the dancing is Barak Obama. He has the nerve to take credit for the very welfare reform Bill pushed through and which Obama OPPOSED. If it isn't apparent Obama is both a liar and the lowly politician who screwed Michigan and accused the Clintons of being Republican Lites (and now co-opts their positions), you have had too much Kool Aid.

If there was more evidence on Obama and Michelle, I would certainly wait to dump it Obama in October. Right now Obama is doing quite well making a fool out of himself. His notes are all over the Yes to the question "do you support a total gun ban?" See Politico's investigation. He blasted Bush on executive power and FISA and then reversed himself. HIs housing record is a joke. His position last summer gives him NO STANDING on Pakistan. HiDING on Iran. His flip flopping on Iraq now (plus his record in Congress) gives him NO STANDING on Iraq. His associations witj Pro Hamas advisors and friends gives him NO STANDING on ISrael and the Middle East. His failure to hold a single meeting of his Seante committee on Eastern Affairs and NATO gives him NO STANDING on Europe and NATO.

His economic plans are watered down rip offs of Hillary and include the stupid idea that raising capital gains will increase revenue.

His Constitutional positions gives him NO STANDING as a Constitutional authority and get this:

"drilling won't lower prices for seven to eight years". SO? Isn't government responsible for long term planning? HIs words on Columbia are refuted by the former Liberal icon Betancourt and the crap found on FARC's laptop.

He talks about changing affirmative Action without really changing it at all. Does he explain how to change it? Nope.

His energy policy is a farce and even his own supporters told CNN it doesn't matter if Obama flip flops, people want him because they like him regardless of his positions. Too much Kool Aid people.

Move the DNC to Chicago? Refuse public financing? Call the vetting of associates and the link between Rezko and Obama's stand on Iraq a distraction?

Discount Pfleger and Wright after Obama called them his central spiritual advisors and mentors? Excuse his financial advisor who was caught screwing people in the sub prime debacle? Excuse Obama playing the race card and even comparing Clinton to Nixon?

Yep, the more Obama talks and makes decisions, the more the middle dislikes him. He is a phony and runs a campaign based on playing it both ways as the wing man media supplies the covering fire. His experiance is "community organizer". Now that's a friggin laugh.

It is not about Bush anymore. It is about Liberals electing a very liberal feather weight who has shown himself to be exactly the pandering politician his long time mentor says he is. Even Obama's half brother laughs at the idea Obama was never brought up a Muslim. Who cares/?Then why lie BO? Why pretend your mom was a conservative and that you had little dealing with Avery and his dad? Why pretend? Because you created a bogus fiction to win the nomination while trashing the Clintons.

I will not forgive as BO confirms every day why he should never be allowed in the WH. Sure, he will try to dance his way there with media's help. He'll get Clark to help and try to win over those bitter people and Hillary supporters. Show some back bone people and prevent Obama/Pelosi from setting back the Democrats another decade.

Divided government is our best chance at bipartansim. Split the ticket and send a message to the DNC that the people control the Party, not an elite group of very LIberal fools that would set Liberals and this country back much the same way Bush has from the Right.

Do not vote for Barak Obama if principle still has any meaning for you.

Want to read some MSM bashing? If so, go to The Daily Howler (and archives).

http://dailyhowler.com/

"Is that all we are, fools (my word) that need selling to? And by "selling" aren't you really saying 'lying"?:

Actually no. Every political campaign is a sales job in exactly the same way that when you apply for any job you are selling the prospective employer on your qualifications.

The campaign for the Presidency is the presentation of two applicants for the people to hire. As such, there is probably some resume padding going on (lying?) or the resume is being slanted (the media).

It is the employers responsibility to dig beneath the sales job to see who best fits their idea of whom to hire. Now Sen. Obama was basically sold and selected by the left wing of the Democratic party and the media. In order for that to happen he had to knock out all the other candidates for the job. Now he is trying to morph into the embodiment of all of their positions (principally Hillary's) to attract the widest possible votes.

My complaint is that those managing his campaign have gone for the "know it all able to make management decisions" rather than "family man who understands your needs and desires". I just think the latter is more effective than the former as a method to reach the goal.

"OH NO! The liberals are coming, hide your wife and children, build your bomb shelters!"

Why do you try to turn everything into juvenile terms?

Patsi, thanks for commenting on Jack's father-in-law. I went back to Jack's message and read it and pursued the link in that message:
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/the-declaration-of-independenc.html#comment-111029

I remember the photo of the young man from our local paper. There's a photo like it from each one of our wars and they are heartbreaking.

And the story of the soldier himself who sought treatment for his PTSD but was not treated. Instead, he took the route that so many other soldiers take. And, the local authorities call it accidental overdose. Every soldier who has ever been where the fighting is knows that he died of wounds received in war.

Anyone reading this who has a family member or close friend who is experiencing symptoms that may be PTSD, drag them to the nearest vet center and wait until the former soldier in fact is seen. And, if you sense the soldier is getting the run around, call the local office of your congress critter.

Here's more about PTSD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder

Flatus, I know I've posted this before, but I've worked with these guys and they do some amazing things:

http://www.nvf.org/

National Veterans Foundation -- run by vets

I'm not so sure just how liberal Obama is....he's backtracking on quite a few issues....FISA, Iraq, and yes, now, abortion.....

"I'm to the point now that I take almost everything that is said and try to figure out which business interest is promoting that viewpoint, and how it might adversely affect the populace." - Patsi

There may be some things that we can take at face value, but it's gotten really difficult to spot them. For the most part, I think they use their advantage to try to do one of two things...achieve greater control of the populace or extract money from us. Sadly, they're pretty good at it...with most people.

Dog, Obama repeatedly told people he was the best hope this country has for "change". He even had the nerve to call his vetting, a distraction" designed to keep the people from electing him to lead this country forward. There are many quotes and I stand by the characterization that Obama thinks he is some uniquley qualified and chosen soul that will lead us forward to his vague plaititudes.

Betancourt used to say the same thing in Columbia. Some people were taken back as she said she was the only honest politician and the only one capable of leading Columbia forward. Obama described his campaign as a higher one and his rhetoric always alludes to the ideal and the promised land. If you can't understand that tactic, then so be it Dog.

Now Betancourt met the enemies of Columbia face to face. And when the Columbian military rescued her ass, he spoke highly of Uribe and the Columbian military. She has certainlly moderated her views since captivity. I can only wish Obama had some experiance that would reveal to him how arrogant and snotty he sounds. Something that would make him understand how black and white he cast this campaign declaring he would defeat Republican opposition like "breaking open the doors of segregation". He says the GOP has no standing on OBL or Pakistan, Iraq or even the Middle East. He does? Why he must be the friggin Messiah or "community organizer"...LOL

Who the frak does he think he is?

The Messiah of course. And I am certainly entitled to speak as metaphorically and vague as Obama does. Just watch Obama in Berlin. The sky will part and the light will shine.

And yes, Dog, you are actually right. Obama is far from being the Messiah. He is actually a lowly politican willing to say or do anything he must to get elected. Even co-opting the very positions he accused Hillary of being untrusworthy for having.

Wright was right, wasn't he? You know exactly what I mean when I say Messiah. And just look at Obama's new pictures at Faith Hope Change. Some say the word blurp covers up Wright in the background.

Say it ain't so.....

Even the New York Times Editorial Board Turns on Obama

"We are not shocked when a candidate moves to the center for the general election. But Mr. Obama’s shifts are striking because he was the candidate who proposed to change the face of politics, the man of passionate convictions who did not play old political games."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/04/even-the-new-york-times-editorial-board-turns-on-obama/

Max

It isn't their imagination. As it stands now according to the current polls of the states by electoral college count, it is an Obama blow out. Whether this will hold all the way to November is another matter, but right now the media is trying for a horse race by only giving the national numbers not the electoral college numbers

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/state-polls.html

Gordo

Rather than the constant shilling for No Quarter, why not post the original link from the New York Times. That way everyone could read exactly what it says rather than excerpts with commentary

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/04/opinion/04fri1.html?ex=1215835200&en=d39ee47042c5be46&ei=5070&emc=eta1

I like the commentary.

What's wrong with being a liberal? Honestly, this is a serious question! The liberal tradition brought the New Deal and at least attempted to create The Great Society... it opened up schools and universities for many of us who would have never gotten an education had it not been for public financing for higher education and grants for those in need.

John F. Kennedy was a liberal and a good President. Why do you demonize the word?

Jamie... I have been trying to hold my tongue, but I gotta say this... If I had been undecided early on, I would have been MOVED to supporting Obama based on what he's cut and paste. I thought Taylor Marsh was interesting and fun, but the rest just makes me shudder. He's within his rights to post this stuff, but I doubt he is making any big influence on anyone's decision-making here, which begs the question... "why bother?".

Google: Obama refines position

Waffles, flip flops , weather vane oh my!

Dog

If you check my post to Gordo, you will see that I linked the original editorial. You are right about your analysis of the Times and their readership.

Good Afternoon,

chloe, Patsi, tonyb39, nick--

I'm enjoying your discussion and agreeing with your frustration, as usual.

Here's an interesting article by Kathleen Parker "Courage Under Fire"
from July 3.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/ci_9783511

It refers to all the people Obama has "thrown under the bus" and it also questions Wesley Clark's argument about Obama being more ready to be president than McCain.

Tom,

It's probably a lost cause, but I'm really trying to get Gordo to talk. It's not free speech when you are nothing but an echo. If you actually get him to say something it is almost always a game playing spiel such as when I was trying to get him to actually name the candidate he supported.

He really wants nothing to do with this site other than play games plus cut and paste, and yes it is aggravating.

Agreed Jamie on all accounts !!!

"The Obama ad, which introduces him as someone who worked his way through college, fights for American jobs, and battles for health care also seeks to move him to the center by taking credit for welfare reform in Illinois which, the ad proclaims, reduced the rolls by 80%.

But there's one problem - Obama opposed the 1996 welfare reform act at the time. The Illinois law for which he takes credit, was merely the local implementing law the state was required to pass, and it did, almost unanimously. Obama's implication -- that he backed "moving people from welfare to work" -- is just not true. " ....

"For the past two weeks, Obama has moved quickly toward the center. He has reversed his previous positions for gun control, against using faith based institutions to deliver public services, against immunity for tele-communications companies that turn records over to the government in terror investigations, for raising Social Security taxes, for imposing the fairness doctrine on talk radio, and a host of other issues."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/obama_strikes_first.html

"Tom they are attempting to keep Reagan's legacy alive. Hence the Liberal bashing. "

BS. I don't see anyone here who voted for Raygun.

BS. I don't see anyone here who voted for Raygun.

Posted by: Patsi | July 6, 2008 5:52 PM

Chef Sheila voted for Reagan.

No judgements being made. Just pointing out an acknowledged fact to another poster who raised a question.

Don't know why that doubled....

kathleen parker......appears regularly on the op-ed of our local paper, an extraordinarily conservative rag.....I read enough of her columns to realize I didnt have anything to gain at all by further readings and havent read any since whenever that was......... but I threw some cabinets into a lake house in Camden SC.....it's nice but not far away enough towards the coast from columbia .......

sturgeone,

I respect your opinion, but I continue to enjoy considering Parker's perspective. Even though, I'm a Democratic and consider myself liberal (but far less so in the last few years) I can appreciate Kathleen Parker's writing ability though conservative on some issues.

It's great that we both have the freedom to pick and choose the writers
we like to read.

He really wants nothing to do with this site other than play games plus cut and paste, and yes it is aggravating.

Posted by: Jamie Author Profile Page | July 6, 2008 5:06 PM

No it's not. It's his right to communicate in any manner he chooses.

Yakety Yak

Agravating to me. Virtually everyone else here carries on a conversation. It may ocassionally degenerate into a brawl, but they do speak back and forth.

Gordo does not. He never takes part in the ongoing conversation in any way. Sure you can skip over or ignore and yest he has every right to post anything he wants, but is is a rather nice feature of this particular blog that people actually converse. It would be nice if Gordo actually talked to us rather than just throwing commentary at the wall to watch it splat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DNz9xGPO4M&feature=PlayList&p=F8DD5A1BF6C78F7D&index=2

nick......does your neck stretch when you do that?

unlikely_burrito,

You addressed me in a brief post earlier and I just wanted to tell you
thanks. I'll be looking for that mannequins link.

Are we suppose to still be commenting only on the Independence Day
theme and the founding fathers? I think we've taken a detour. Will Craig
be upset with us for our transgressions?

West Side (of Austin) Story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkM2igp82Ec

Was trying a little lighthearted fair.

me also.......had visions of someone's head actually going up and down by way of extended and then contracted neck section.......I shoulda lolled.......

but you did call a whole bunch of us "insipid" simply for writing our opinions
about Obama.

Obama's FISA stand has taken the momentum out of his big voter registration drive.

"It would be nice if Gordo actually talked to us rather than just throwing commentary at the wall to watch it splat."

Maybe Craig should post a list of rules. We could all agree to it before we enter. A Trail Mixers 'Bill of rights'.

Hello beautiful people! Just checking in as the long weekend winds down. Craig hasn't changed the thread yet?

Hello also to all you Facebook friends. I'm having fun with it but I am trying to hide my terrible WordTwist scores. Absolutely pathetic!

A reliable source at Clyde's (Georgetown.)

STurgeone

If you remember Spade Cooley, then you must remember Molly Bee and the last time I heard of her was a party at her house when I was 15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzORvDwgp3o

Here's something interesting I found in U.S. News & World Report for July 6th.

The ten worst presidents--

1. James Buchanan
2. Warren G. Harding
3. Andrew Johnson
4. Franklin Pierce
5. Millard Fillmore
6. John Tyler
7. Ulysses S. Grant
8. William Harrison
9. (tie) Richard Nixon and Herbert Hoover
10. Zachary Taylor
11. Jimmy Carter

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/worstpresidents/index.htm

seems like i remember a molly bee hanging out with pinky lee......

Pinky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAWoPLe5aQ4

US News & World Report is trash.

Any list of bad presidents should include Woodrow Wilson, who subverted American sovereignty; Andrew Jackson, who slaughtered thousands of Native Americans; Ford, who didn't do a damn thing besides pardon his crooked boss; LBJ, who lied to escalate the Vietnam War... this is just off the top of my head. Oh, and of course, GWB should be at the top of that list.

Let's see them make a list of 10 good presidents. The can't because there haven't been that many.

The current Old Ebbits is a step up from Clyde's.
... owned by the same company.

Yakety-Yak, That would be a list of wrongs-if I'm following the thread correctly. Now I'm moving my head side to side.

Posted by: Nick | July 6, 2008 7:12 PM

Nick, I was being ironic. Didn't mean it.

certainly not champ:

Okay, who were the five best presidents?

There have been a number of public statements from netroots activists about the impact of FISA

Rewarding good behavior
by kos
Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 11:05:46 AM PDT
So many of you are upset that I pulled back my credit card last night, making a last minute decision to hold back on a $2,300 contribution to Obama. Let me explain further:

First of all, obviously Obama is a great candidate who is running a great 50-state race. That much cannot be denied. But he's had a rough couple of weeks.

First, he reversed course and capitulated on FISA, not just turning back on the Constitution, but on the whole concept of "leadership". Personally, I like to see presidents who 1) lead, and 2) uphold their promises to protect the Constitution.

Then, he took his not-so-veiled swipe at MoveOn in his "patriotism" speech.

Finally, he reinforced right-wing and media talking points that Wes Clark had somehow impugned McCain's military service when, in reality, Clark had done no such thing.

All of a sudden, there was a lot of cowering when, just days ago, we got to read this
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/1/05546/22532/562/544544

The news of problems for the Obama campaign wasn't the reason for drinks, it was a lagniape.

Must be too much BPP in the honey.

Posted by: Nick | July 6, 2008 7:31 PM

The honey's fine and so are you.

whaddya get when you cross an elephant with a kangaroo?

large holes all over australia

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/06/study-says-more-than-10-000-laptops-go-missing-at-us-airports-ea/

ten thousand laptops disappear per week.....isnt that like half a million a year? weird.

Richardson and Obama have NO STANDING to talk about Pakistan. Remember the prediciton that is onlt Musharraf resigned and election held, moderates would defeat the militants, allow us to talk to AQ Khan and even catch OBL? Richrdson said in a debate that the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis were moderate and wanted a more Liberal and stable country. Obama declared the US should strike at militants inside Pakistan.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSISL88893

What utter bullshit and it gives one a good window on Obama;s foreign policy smarts. Yeah, like we need a one to two year Barak learning curve. Iran will have a bomb before then.

But then most here will ignore the facts and make excuses for poor BO. And remember that great experiance in foreign policy Obama had visiting Pakistan during his college days. Yeah, that helped his present insight greatly.

And now the stronger Talibam backed by new successes in Pakistan target German troops in Afghanistan. Maybe Obama will mention that in Berlin. And he can promise Europe the moon as Iran moves towards both ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons. Maybe he can tell France that FARC is not a terrorist group or that Syria isn't up to nuclear tricks. He can explain how his Iraq pans will hep the Middle East become stable.

Maybe the Germans will see that Obama is no JFK and talks of no sacrifice in defending Liberal Democracy against threats. Maybe he can get Euorope to Sue OPEC. Maybe he can tell NATO they don't need any missile defense. He will TALK to our adversaries and convince them to be reasonable.

Or will he take another stolen page from the Clintons and talk tough.

What a joke. With Zbig and Rice and Power sure to come back to the BO team, we will really improve out standing in the world. First our reputation and next our resolve.

Perhaps Barak might want to skip over to Syria and iran where hardliners hail Obama as the new American Gorby ready to do to American power what GOrby did to Russia.

And maybe Obama can stop off in Israel and futher give them reason to strike now before Obama becomes President.

Yep, that's the ticket. Change we can believe in.

Certainly not Champ is quite a smart guy. LBJ one of the worst Presidents? Wilson and Ford? Now there is an Obama supporter. You can spot them by their pretense of knowledge which oozes from the tops of their heads like brill cream.

Ah, the world according to not Champ. Kudos.....

The only one I can think of is Jefferson. I'm not very sure of what Washington did after the war, and Lincoln presided over the bloodiest period in American History. The only reason he "held the union together" was because his side won.

I know NIck. You hang tough....

The statement comes from Kos himself. When an activist of that stature and an Obama supporter withdraws his financial support, it indicates problems.

The source for info on the voter drive is within the Obama campaign.

Molly Bee was the cute teenage singer with Cliffie Stone. Lived in LA where the TV show was broadcast. . Hit the drug scene pretty hard in the 60s and had something of a comeback in the 80s.

She must be 70 now if still around. Great voice

not Champ you are an idiot.

FORMER-Obama, supporter, thank you very much. As aforementioned, I wanted to believe, but can see through the baloney now. Putting words in my mouth again. An your posts are much better when you do them in a word processor first and then paste them here, so kudos right back atcha, bud.

Oh, god forbid we should ever question the legacy of Lincoln.

molly's bio.......she's 68 now.......

http://www.cmt.com/artists/az/bee_molly/bio.jhtml

i guess max and champ wont be having that beer after all........lol

Champ we can question anything we want to, but passing judgment requires some facts. You act as though Lincoln had nothing to do with his army winning. You'll have to do better than that. And of course I am astonished you didn't condemn FDR for starting SS and your blast at LBJ must involve his civil rights positions. Tell me, are you writing in Ron Paul?

Extremes man, extremes are profoundly bad strategies. Even Jefferson went after the prirates. If few Presidents strike your fancy, perhaps you might have the experiment they were all defending all wrong. See? I can question everything, yes? Even you.....

I'll throw Garfield on the list of good ones.

And it's all in good fun. I'm still down for a brew.

I guess that'd be a good example of the paradigm shift meme..........

Strug, I have few compatriots as I defend the center. Can you understand that> Can any of you understand that? I don't need some club or some label. I am Left center. Center Liberal. And I think my take is closer to the inherent tension of our experiment called America than the very Liberal or the very conservative. I have friends who are libertarians. I get their essential point. I know RHINO cnservatives and they have valid points too. I have many Liberal friends, but be certain, I am not about to vomit principle and support a very liberal phony who would do the doppelganger of Bush.

First our reputation and then our resolve. No way. And I don't think I'm far from Nick, Flatus, Pats. Chloe, and others. My loyalty is not ideology but results, values and principles. I will not vote for a liar, especially one who trashed the Clinton's positions only to steal them for himself. I will rather vote McCain, as a Liberal.

Sturgeone

Yes that timing is right. I met her in 1959 when I was 15 because of friends at Capitol and she was 18 or 19 then. It's hard to think of her as a major star now, but she was really, really big in the LA music scene at the time.

I will not vote for a liar

Posted by: Maxtrue | July 6, 2008 8:00 PM

Guess you'll be sitting out this election, and every future one also.

At least Champ can appreocate principle, not wafflers willing to toe the Party line. That's why I respect many Libertarians. They are quite serious about principle, something most Americans have long forgotten.

I'll have that brew and argue all night as I would with Lard and ET. I would try to convince Jamie and buy Pats a beer. My contempt is for those thinking they are voting principle for a candidate without many. They are voting not epublican without concern with the result of an Oabma/Pelosi. Mandate and Tax our way to oblivion. To call Obama the Liberal Reagan makes no sense. It is a bad joke. His friends have always been Far Left. His preacher is a nutjob, his backer a crook. Get real Ladies and Gentlemen. Barak Obama screwed CLinton with the very Liberal axe and now is trying to co-opt her positions to get elected.

Screw that.

And on that last quote, I am sure Champ and I could have a nice cold brewski, regardless of our principled squabbles. To think his position is more foreign to ou Founders than Barak is absurd.

Strug, I have few compatriots as I defend the center

---maxtrue

Max......I cant understand that.

Like you would know.

yes, just kidding about you guys and that beer......many a problem solved over a beer or two...............

Prithee fill up my glass till it laugh in my face
with ale that is potent and mellow
he that whines for a lass is an ignorant ass
for a bumper of wine has not its fellow.....

---Wm Congreve

Yes, Champ they all lie, but to differing degrees. I can't think of a single issue Obama has not lied about, guns, capital punishment, Iran, Iraq, Hams, Rezko, Auchi, Wright, Pfleger, energy, affirmitive action, FISA, defense, Pakistan, racism, public financing, the Clintons, his Kyl vote, talking to Ahmadinejad, his family history?

It is profoundly disturbing.

So yes, most if not all politicians lie, but the degree that Obama has ficitonalized himself and his positions deserves contempt from supporters of the candidate he assailed with BS.

Strug, since I am not beholden to any great ideological bullshit, I rail against the very Liberal AND the very Conservative. You think defending the iddle gets you many friends? Just look at my situation here. If I don't toe the line I'm labeled a neocon. When I battle a Libertarian they often call me a diehard Liberal. Get it? The hardest thing is to defend the excluded middle. I think that is why Lard respects what I say. He knows exactly this is the intellectual position my HIgh School taught me to be and wjhy I am Independent. I buy nothing that does not make sense. Show me the facts.

I will take on the Left and Right, the special interests and the faithful. I declare MY independence and ask all to question theirs. You cannot support a pandering liar that sounds purty just because you oppose the opposition.

So I walk the line Sturg, but I am not about to drink the Kool Aid. Nobody is going to sway me with bullshit. It is that simple. I put a lot of sweat into the Clinton referendum as the best the Democrats had to offer. Nothing has changed.

...off a cliff

corey........i feel one coming on................

one person's view (not mine) of the yeah but syndrome

http://blog.qualityaspect.com/2006/07/21/the-yeah-but-syndrome/

What this country needs is a centrist candidate to bring the Left and Right together. Obama is not that guy, but Mccain would be forced to be that guy given a Democratic Congress and his own history. A jump to the Left is about as dumb right now as the jump to the Right in 2000. Once you understand MY principles, you won't regard me an inherent foe, but rather a necessary ally. Without the center, you got nothing. The political circle revolves around the center while excluding its candidates because of the fucked up two Party system. Conservatives and Liberals are essential components of our experiment. The center is where they are forced to take the best they offer and work it out with the other. That is progress. But the Far Left and the Far Right hate the centrists. So we will just be caught in a self-defeating cycle of Left and Right.

Break the addiction and move to the center. Marginalize the extremes. Obama's record and history is not an example of marginalizing the extrmemes but rather making them his mentors. Clinton best represented the Democratic center, with her husband of course. I will not jump to the person or wing that engineered the Democratic absurdity we see now from energy to foreign policy, to economy to the Constitution, no matter how much the Republicans screwed up. That has nothing to do with getting it right.

Jump to the Right and you'll still be standing Left of center. What are you afraid of?

...Thinking for himself.

Jump to the Right and you'll still be standing Left of center. What are you afraid of?
--Max

Short Answer: Republicans.

Long Answer: ANY republicans.

Aw c'mon Sturg. What you're doing is akin to what the Neo-Conservative tlaking heads (Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, et. al.) do every day with their villification of "Liberals" and using that term in the pejorative. You're better than that.

Divide and conquer.

No I'm not.

anon or Nick....have you been to this place? I gave my son a gift certificate there last Christmas, because it's so close to where he lives...

http://www.belgacafe.com/index.asp

Fair enough. If true, your arguments can't be taken seriously and you're nothing more than a cheerleader. If a joke, I can appreciate that, though a lot of humor is tough to pull off in here without the benefit of inflection, speaking from experience.

Free your mind, your ass will follow.

"Oh, your source was Daily Kos.
(Yawn.)"

Oh yeah -- THAT right wing website....ROFL!

Sturg, I know many Republicans and they are not the beast you ascribe them. I can't believe your fear mongering. They are strongly for equality and support environmental protection to a rational degree. Go to Stubborn Facts and talk to Republicans who are no less human than you. Moderate Republicans and Moderate Democrates have more in common that they have with the extremes of their sides. That is the unspoken reality. Plain and simple. You characterization is infantile, forgive me for saying. If Israelis and Arabs take such a simplistic view, there will be war for another thousand years. Listen to the great Obama who will bring Liberal and Conservative together....LOL Are you saying his is lying?

I can't believe you actually took such a position. Even Adams and Jefferson died best firends yesterday many decades ago. What are you saying amigo?

Feel free to dismiss me at any time, old top........

here's my argument: No republicans elected anywhere for the next ..........ah......say..... 60 years.....I'll be gone and my daughter will be very old.....her kids will have to fend for themselves...............

I have grown to like old frydaddy, though..........lol

dude......Im in SC.......If I didnt have republicans for friends I might get pretty lonely........doesnt mean I'd vote for them................

I was right, you are a fascist.

that's right..........me and mussolini........two peas in a pod...............

lol

I DO know a guy who played sax accompanied by mussolini's son on the piano.......does that count?

"My loyalty is not ideology but results, values and principles. I will not vote for a liar, especially one who trashed the Clinton's positions only to steal them for himself. I will rather vote McCain, as a Liberal. "

Well, Max -- here's my ideology. I've been trashed by some for years for being too far to the left. I profoundly believe that the social programs we have can work, and we need more of them in place. But I also believe we have screwed them up. Starting with the fact that LBJ let Vietnam destroy his Great Society.

Now, because I differ with some on this blog, I find myself being called a Republican and a racist. I find people -- women, for God's sake -- who demand proof that anything like sexism ever existed. And I find people willing to overlook any number of questions about their candidate because winning is "so much fun."

I don't think that bodes well for progress. What it says to me is that Ronald Reagan succeeded in dumbing down this country, then George Bush left people so depressed that they blindly seek salvation.

Obama may turn out okay. Just another politician. But okay. It will depend on who is running him. If it is the telecommunications industry, then we need to worry. McCain is probably crazy. So he'd be dangerous anyway you cut it -- unless checked.

Either way, we now have a crap shoot.

Strug, a one Party syetem is not what our Founders had in mind. Another example of some here giving little respect for our heritage and Constitution let alone our pluralism. The more peeple post, the more normal you make Chamop appear on a Liberal blog. Fancy that. Frydaddy displays more rationality than many here.

Vilify seems the modus operandi of this little party (Pats, Nick and others I do not mean you). Reminds me of a star trek with two dudes with black and white sides of their faces....LOL

Figures Kirk the Canadian had to save the day with his reasoning....

now he's Boston Law..

There a bunch of mind-slaves here, Patsi, but also quite a few free-thinkers, of which I consider you one. Unfortunately, the slaves are louder.

Maxtrue,

You are historically wrong. The Founders DID think that this country would have one party. In fact the Confederacy, in its zeal to claim the mantle of true adherents to the Revolution, tried to have only one party. In US history, the Era of Good Feeling is noted as the time when there was only one party. So your premise is unfounded.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/the-declaration-of-independenc.html#comment-111190
"I declare MY independence and ask all to question theirs." Maxtrue

Really important and worthwhile posts.

Dude, shove Godwin's Law up your ass, already. I dare you to conceive an original thought. I triple dog dare ya.

PUMA CALL TO DNC DELEGATES

WANTED: 175 HONEST DEMOCRATIC DELEGATES TO LEAVE FRAUDULENT OBAMA IN DENVER!

http://www.puma08.com/2008/07/05/puma-call-to-dnc-delegates/

Max

"Strug, a one Party syetem is not what our Founders had in mind."

Actually that is exactly what they had in mind, or to be more specific, a no party system where the best and brightest would bring their skills to the service of the nation.

This bit of foolish idealism died a truly nasty and well deserved death in the election of 1800. That's the trouble with human nature. It always beats idealism to a pulp.

THAT's the best " I knew [fill in relative of a celebrity] "
I have ever heard, Sturgee!
"I DO know a guy who played sax accompanied by mussolini's son on the piano...."
Damn! I can't top that!
Hey Sturgee, remember "The Buckingham's", that Chicago group that had a couple hits in the mid-1960s?
My brother answered a "for sale" ad in The Sun-Times and ended up buying one of the Buckingham's Stratocaster, which he still plays a couple times a year....

Mr. Democrat, brandishing your intellectual power again? Read the Federalist Papers and then get back to me. Or read the Founding Brothers by Joseph Ellis. You talk, but say little. This country was founded on Pluralism with checks and balances against the accumulation of political power.

Where did you study?

And you call yourself Mr. Democrat. Now there is a joke, if a bad one at that....

You're worse than Jackie the Jokeman. And none. I have a 'Defend America, Defeat Bush' bumper sticker, and I've caught a lot of shit over it. I let my freak flag fly, brother, despite efforts of simpletons like you to suppress dissent with jeering and intimidation.

"Like that neighborhood."

dog -- It's just blocks from where my son lives. He said it was a great place. The fun part of that gift was that he always says he wants nothing....so I googled around and came up with the Belga Cafe....and got him a $150 gift certificate. he said he and a friend had a nice dinner and wine for that....so it worked out.

"That's the trouble with human nature. It always beats idealism to a pulp."

*chuckle*

now that is a quoteable quote.

Jack

buckinghams.......but of course.......a buckingham stratocaster.....most as good as getting one of Nokie Edwards' geetars.............

"I DO know a guy who played sax accompanied by mussolini's son on the piano.......does that count?"

Yes it does, sturge! ROFL! That sounds like an indie movie title: Mussolini's Son on Piano

First Jamie, that is not what is argued in the Federalist Papers and such a reality NEVER existed. Adams and Hamilton, Burr and Jefferson where all on partisan sides. It is not in the Consitutiton and just because an idea floated that was NEVER the reality politically, does not mean our Founders EVER sought a one Party system.

If you read the works I offered to Mr. Democrat you would see this was so. The Adams/Jefferson experiment and the early division of the Federalists and the Madison wing showed exactly what our Founders really had in mind. Even Frankin saw this and to say our Founders ever really thought there would be a one Party of political expression goes against thier behavior and their history.....the defense of political pluralism and the understanding of regional differences expressed in representitive government.

MaxTrue,

This doesn't require much intellectual power. All you need to do is go to high school. Thomas Jefferson was quoted that if he had to join a political party in order to go to heaven, then he didn't want to go. Check and balances has nothing to do with whether political parties would concentrate various interests, whether economic or social, which is what the Founders want to avoid and what exactly happened.

So your statement is still untrue.

or duane eddy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xME2VC56ubA

MD -- dammit -- where have you been? I happened across a blog addressing AA v. black that echoed what you said the other day, but since you hadn't been around I didn't post the link. Now I have to think what site it was on.

Don't you people ever get tired of arguing? My Dad got to go home during the day on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. He continues to make some dumb remarks, mostly about my Mom. Asking if she's got a boyfriend yet etc...This led my sister to call him a *Selfish S.O.B.* yesterday. My family has problems, I tell ya.

On the Absurdity of Being Shocked to see a Weather Vane Shift with the Wind

"It will be interesting to see how long the NYT editorial boards of the world, who have long accepted the many-faced Obama's claim that his flavor-of-the-month views on issues were "passionate convictions," will be willing to call into question the veracity, or the desirability, of Obama's claims, (constantly changing) stated beliefs, and leadership. If the so-called "objective" journalists in the MSM do their jobs anywhere near correctly, rather than reacting to the tingles they may be feeling in their respective legs, then Barack Obama's days as a serious candidate for President of the United States may be numbered."

http://www.redstate.com/stories/elections/2008/on_the_absurdity_of_being_shocked_to_see_a_weather_vane_shift_with_the_wind

Well, folks, the patriotism thread is about to change to another topic, I guess, so my last comment here on this thread is a look to the future.
We all know Obama is very pro-Zionist, and is committed to standing up for and behind Israel come what may.
Take seven and a half minutes and check out this refresher course on the constantly on-going hell that is The Mid-East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3mdlXqW4Pg&feature=related

I had a bunch of writing assignments, so I've been busy. I'm still busy, but I'll check out the link when you send it.

Max

"Adams and Hamilton, Burr and Jefferson where all on partisan sides. It is not in the Consitutiton and just because an idea floated that was NEVER the reality politically, does not mean our Founders EVER sought a one Party system."

I said a "No Party System". What you are talking about IS the election of 1800 when all the factions came into being. If you will back track way up thread, I suggested reading "A Magnificent Catastrophe" by Edward Larson.

"OK, what's a Puma? Is it a Cougar's less attractive sibling?
Have I got my big cats straight?"

Don't ask me...I never heard of either term until the last few months!

Patsi,

PUMA's (Party Unity My Ass) are theoretically the Clinton supporters who insist they are voting for McCain. Quite frankly, with the speed the websites went up I tend to think it is a Republican scam hoping to pull in the Clinton vote.

I can understand Clinton supporters who would go third party or not vote, but vote Republican ... Nahhhhh
Particularly since it is being pushed by right wing sites such as NO Quarter

http://justsaynodeal.com/

MD -- can't believe I found this again because I drifted to it by accident in the first place...but here it is:

http://www.diversityinc.com/public/3698.cfm

PUMA's Have Awakened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yML_vMPYnqU

http://blog.pumapac.org/

Jamie -- My vote will be a write in. Could not possibly pull the lever for a Republican. I encourage others to write in if it's allowed or vote indie. Maybe socialist.

Yeah, he stirs the pot with his terse one-liners, and then cuts and runs when he's challenged to offer anything of substance. Intellectual coward.

"Maybe socialist. "

I keep telling my son to look for my name to come across his desk any day now.....

Gees. WASHINGTON was the only President that had no Party. He did not think any Party was good while most feared WASHINGTON was a Party unto himself and might rule until he died. Adams was a Federalist with Madison and Jeffeson were working against him in a de facto partisan way.

This nation thus started with political division expressed first by the Federalist Party and those outside of it as discussed in the Federalist Papers. This played out in reality from almost Day One. Did the Federalist Papers suggest No Parties or just a One Party?

I would argue that all the Founding Fathers whether they professed otherwise or not realized the political divisions and saw the Parties coming. It was inevitible and discussed in great detail. A Party as we can see today means toeing the Party line. Since our Founders knew various leaders did not toe the same line, are you suggesting they envison a political process where NO Party or one Party ruled the various sentiment? And Mr. Democrat said our Founders wanted a one Party system. They thought of a no Party system, but that wasn't going to work as opposing sides formed de facto political groupings, hense the TWO PARTIES. So I claim there was a defacto two Party system at work from the start and materialized in full.force as you say by by 1800, though as I said, Adams ran as a Federalist knowing that Madison and Jefferson did not want to be part of his Party and worked privately towards their own ends which materialized as the Second Party.

Did that make sense?

So compare that with Mr. Democrats remarks which do seem limited to high school.

Sorry for the abrasiveness, but everyone seems so all knowing yet brashly dismisses obvious facts which I have been posting here for months. Now I see why.

Something to lighten the mood here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/us/featured/cluster/animals/video/x5t3os_gonna-fly-now-jonny-part-6-8mm_creation

I tried to leave. I have a big job starting in the morning, but I could let that One Party Mr. Democrat remark go unchallenged. And the ide that our Founder in reality thought we were ever going yto have no Parties is more than wishful thinking. We were in fact a deeply divided country shown by the mere fact we put off talking about slavery for decades......

ne must separate idealistic words from reality. And our Founders prepared our system for a Pluralistic Party reality.

Well thanks for the covering fire. I have to run for real now, but I'll be back. I keep telling the Obots was good they are doing uniting different sides against them. The first fact needed in building trust is knowing where a person stands. So much for Obama....

Have a beer on me and 'll have this pale ale on you Champ. Now all we need is Lard and a few others to prove reason unites not ideology...........

Night all......

sorry for all the typos, but I was eating dinner and used no spell check.....night again......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6AZNywvF-s

This is for Prof Marcia: creepy but original - watch at your own risk- ( Manikins ) short creative film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La6T8Bq6CsU

pipples get ready......there's distain a'coming.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQqTxK7VhSk&feature=related

"Still Life - Short movie, very shocking but very clever"

Waited a long time for the clever part...those boys might not want to give up their day jobs.

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