Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

This thread is about our nation's birth. Please stick to it as best you can. Current events can wait. Only six minutes to listen to the enitre Declaration of Independence by clicking the screen on this post. You'll be glad you did.

Happy Birthday to the United States of America! You've been a grand experiment. Long may you last.

My favorite words in TJ's Declaration:

"Let facts be submitted to a candid world."

While I've often quoted these words to young journalists as my view of what they should adopt as their motto, it's a darn good sentiment for any citizen.

Let's hope the Afghanis and Iraqis don't get a hold of this.

I hope they do, champ. TJ would be all for it.

One of the greatest attributes of the Declaration of Independence is that it codified protestation of the denial of rights as the most patriotic act one can do for ones country. And this is why I'm much more in awe of the documents and principles that were written, rather than the men who wrote it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osFKsmjwe6g&feature=related

Wisdom from the founding fathers.........

yep, Mr. D., we should not gloss over the fact that these flawed men totally blew it when it came to the rights of women -- and, of course. slavery, which set the time bomb that became the Civil War. But still, they managed to create a government that at long last made right the stuff they got so wrong.

Yeah, the mercenaries we employ, such as Blackwater (Hessians), is one of the most disgusting aspects of our military occupation over there, to me. We are basically re-colonizing the middle east, and we saw how well it worked out the first time.

Sad day when our current government is guilty of just about every transgression that provided the impetus for its own inception.

I know what TJ means by that sentence.....but why did he say "a candid world"?

The "Declaration of Independence", Mr. Jefferson was farsighted, it seems. I wonder how much of it came to him as he witnessed the violence and shocking cruelty of the French Revolution, thanks be that it didn't happen that way here. Perhaps the "Constitution" that came after was in some way a protection against the random condeming of neighbors and friends for sums of money or political advancement, charges that led to the guillotine. Even Lady Liberty came from France and for philosophy there was Voltaire and for comedy Moliere. I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of the arrogance and and criminality of the current administration........I'm sure, for all his far-sightedness he would be spinning in his grave and wondering what happened to "ask what you can do for your country"?.....

This is inflammatory, I realize, but:

Is it really academically and intellectually responsible to cherry-pick the "founding father's" legacies in such a manner? How could they be geniuses in one regard and the total ignoramuses in another? Seems like revisionist history to me.

The video is a very enjoyable reminder of what we celebrate today. And this web site is always a prime example of the independence and free exchange of ideas that the founders had in mind. Thanks Craig.

Happy Independence Day to ALL

french revolution........1789

murican revolution .........1776

ignoramus genius is about as good as humans get, champ

Like Calvin said to Hobbes:

"I don't know why we look for intelligent life in outer space. We still haven't found it here."

I have the "ignoramus" part down pat.........

1. frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic.
2. free from reservation, disguise, or subterfuge; straightforward: a candid opinion.
3. informal; unposed: a candid photo.
4. honest; impartial: a candid mind.
5. Archaic. white.
6. Archaic. clear; pure.
–noun 7. an unposed photograph.

I guess he was going for # 6........but still it seems an odd word choice somehow.......

or maybe #4.......honest impartial........ok......just doesnt sound right to me somehow I guess........

"Let facts be submitted to a candid world."

=

"Let us provide examples to those in the world who can honestly consider them"

One could make the argument he meant the 5th definition, though. That's a joke, by the way; to be clear

Craig,

Yes, our government, through trials and tribulations, has proven to be resilient. But while the spark was provided by the Founding Fathers, let us not be so blind to not understand that the very government they formed was often used as a weapon against those not included in the words, We The People. Those are the unfortunate truths that don't negate the legacy of the Founding Fathers, but allow us to temper our adoration by realizing they were flawed humans, and not demi gods.

#4 works for me, sturg. what a wonderful world -- and blog -- this would be if everyone would at least strive for an "honest, impartial, candid mind"

Craig already made that concession 10 posts ago, D.

damn straight, Mr. D., and they knew it too -- I am convinced that many of them would be royally pissed at some of what goes on, and probably amazed that we're still here

"french revolution........1789

murican revolution .........1776

you beat me to it Sturg. And The Constitution of the US was adopted two years before the French Revelution.

here's where the founders admitted they hadn't thought of everything -- the Ninth Amendment in the Bill of Rights: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

In other words, they were saying: Hey folks, keep it up, we might have missed something

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Do your duty.

I really feel that the Bush administration has invalidated the constitution by repeatedly undermining it. In other words, they killed it. It's hard for me to see how it could be resurrected. Ron Paul was the only candidate who espoused a return to constitutional values, and he was ridiculed for it.

I listened to a radio program last night. They were discussing the contrasting political views of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. They also discussed Adams and Jefferson's view of the French Revolution vs. The American Revolution. I believe it was said that the Americans were guided by religion and morality during their revolution, while the French weren't. That was the big difference between the two.

232 years old.

I like the comment about "keep it up, we might have missed something."

TJ and the rest of the guys were always working on improving and adding to their ideas... Declaration of Independance ... Articles of Confederation ... Constitution ... Bill of Rights.

I think the Founders would be rolling in their graves if they knew judges like Scalia were claiming to be fulfilling the intent of the Founders when they choose to ignore 250 years of change.

The American Revolution was largely the product of a middle class merchant society. The French Revolution was largely driven by the revolt of a peasant class.

232 years is not such a long time, is it sturg? That's why this thread is important to me. Champ is right -- our Constitution is way more fragile than we think. And it's the people, not the politicians, who will keep it going.

if you figure that rome was founded around 750 BC.......at 232 years old rome was still 450 yrs or so away from the time of Julius and the emperors........

The Roman Republic was the phase of the ancient Roman civilization characterized by a republican form of government. The republican period began with the overthrow of the Monarchy c. 510 BC and lasted over 450 years until its subversion, through a series of civil wars, into the Principate form of government and the Imperial period.

figuring it from the beginning of the republic time or 510, at 232 yrs they were 278 years away from the empire........

They mentioned the beheadings in France. Jefferson seemed to have more faith in the good of man than Adams did. I did study about the French Revolution in high school I took 4 years of French. It was always an interesting part of French history to learn about. But , it's been a long time since those days.

yep.......232 is quite young.........unless maybe things just kind of move faster in the modern age.......

well yeah, i guess in dog years we're an ancient civilization by now

Sturg,

I think social change happens a lot faster in the age of automobiles and the internet than it did in the days when you had to walk everywhere and do your writing with a chisel.

you aint just a-woofin'

--dizzy dean

Just as long as nobody looks for McCain's signature on The Declaration of Independence. But, seriously, I loved American History when I was in school. All things about our history. I used to read about all the Presidents in our World Book Encyclopedia. I had all the important dates in our history memorized. I also raised and lowered the flag at my elementary school in 5th grade. It was cool to be 11 and to learn how to fold the American flag.

It's called 'indoctrination', Corey, and I fell for it, too.

I've witnessed close to 25% of the country's history.....

and on that 1789 i was just lucky i got the catchpaw right the first time.......

usually if i flunk the catchpaw, i take it as a sign to delete the post..........lol

Well in all fairness you can't count 1776 as the start of American civilization. As part of the British Empire we were part of a parliamentary system, just not an equal member. And in terms of living under the authority of a written constitution we have endured longer than other nation in the history of mankind and that is something certainly pride worthy.

Ah, Scranton:

Pa. historians baffled by vanished Lincoln bust

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080703/ap_on_re_us/independence_day_mystery

"Hey, Djas see dat statue we had over dare? Dey musta chrown it in da garbitch!"

Ooooh, thanks for the opening Brian.

"Pride cometh before the fall."

I don't get the relevance of that statement champ.

We came a long way from warring for "the rights of Englishmen" to a war of independence, all in a year's time.

Total disgust with George III led to Washington raising an American flag. 'Common Sense', by Tom Paine, revved up Congress.

By this time John Adams had become convinced we had to fight the war not for redress of grievances, but for independence, and he seconded Virginia's Richard Henry Lee's resolution for same.

What makes the document so timeless and precious has been detailed well by Craig and Mr. D and others in this thread: "...a decent respect for the opinions of mankind."

Thomas Jefferson set forth the causes that "impelled them to separation", as the document begins .

Were it not for an absence of regard of human values by George III, the founding fathers never would have taken the bold step toward revolution , separation, and freedom from tyranny by England.

The document drafted by Thomas Jefferson was really to prove George III's "...design to reduce them under absolute despotism".

My quotations are from a history book by Allan Nevins and Henry Steele Commager.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Damn, you love setting yourself up, don't you?

Pride implies complacency, and complacency usually precedes upheaval.

Barbara W. Tuchman has a great book in which one of the four sections deals with how exactly george III managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.......

THE MARCH OF FOLLY (From Troy to Viet Nam)

one section on troy.......
one on one of the old popes.....
one on king george .......
one on viet nam

champ you speak in a grassy knoll - area 51 based language, sorry I don't. I'm going to bed, even we Nazis need our sleep.

fife and drum corps
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes_main.html?nav=slate

I started thinking about "my favorite founding father" and finally settled on old Ben......because he decided to just quit wearing the stupid wig hat...........

Ok, one more question, to which I will check for a reply upon my rousing from slumber:

Craig,

I was planning on driving down to D.C. tomorrow to check out the show, and I was wondering if there was anywhere I could see the display without getting caught in a clusterbleep of cars and/or people. I wouldn't mind just parking on the side of some road if that was easiest and permitted by local authorities.

Thanks.

It's easy enough to "declare" independence.......but it is invariably followed by it's direct consequence.......war.....there don't seem to be many instances of independence freely granted.......the Commonwealth, the american revolution and civil war, etc..........

I mean, you can write that paper just as loop-hole free as possible........and as persuasive as possible to the candid world.......a rip roaring barn burner of a statement of justifiable independence.............but as soon as you publish it........you'd better break out the rifles.........

Nice video, Craig. . .

In keeping with the theme of the day, I think I will choose
Benjamin Franklin as my favorite founding father, because he was a true
Renaissance man: a political activist, a writer/satirist, a scientist, an inventor, a newspaper editor. Plus, he invented bifocals. He formed the first lending library in America. Later in his life, he fought to free all slaves and he became one
of the nation's leading abolitionists.

I would pick Benjamin Franklin as being the first modern American. Thoughtful, raunchy, intelligent, and if we'd have followed his advice, we would have the always delicious Turkey as our national symbol. A true genius in any age and a man after my own heart. BTW, Poor Richard's Almanac was genius in being able to skewer his political enemies. Think of it as the blog of the 18th Century.

Sturgeone, Patsi and unlikely_burrito,

Thanks for commenting on my Twilight Zone question.
My favorite two episodes were: the one when the mannequins in the department store came alive after the store closed at night and the one about the convict banished to a foreign planet who was given a beautiful robot woman to be his partner.

umlikely: to answer your question, the marathon has been on all yesterday,
July 3rd and, I think, will run all week-end.

Chloe,

Thanks for your kind words to me on the previous post. I love your
comments, too!

Thanks Craig ----Sometimes we all talk about these documents but forget exactly what they say. Happy 4th to you and all the bloggers---

Patrick Henry

Benjamin Franklin.
Happy Independence Day, 4th of July.

Flag went up on my house at daybreak.

Happy 4th, everybody.

Here's the text of the Declaration of Independence, if anyone would like to read it while listening to the CQ audio.

http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htm

William Kristol wrote a column June 30th about reading the Declaration at BBQs on the 4th. A letter to the NY Times today with a good suggestion:

Re “The Choice They Made” (column, June 30):

Reading aloud the Declaration of Independence on July 4 (a practice William Kristol recounts as part of a tradition) is a custom followed in many places.

Not as common, but certainly as germane — and much shorter — is the practice of reading the preamble to the Constitution. The Declaration stated why separation from England was necessary; the preamble proclaims the high purposes for which our Constitution was established and continues to exist.

David J. Rabadan
Annandale, Va., June 30, 2008

======
The Preamble:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

Ooooh, you've been one-upped by NPR, Craig.

NPR had their own reading of the Declaration of Independence, and it also featured dramatic music with ominous snare-drumming and the occasional tolling bell, but each line was read by a different NPR personality. Top that!

Sadly, Click and Clack didn't make the cut.

In yesterday's print edition of The Wall Street Journal on page A12, there was a two column wide, page height ad that shouted in black on yellow print, in all caps. The punctuation in the ad was accomplished by changing font size. I've added normal punctuation:

"Screw the dopers, politics, critics, the false allegations and the fair weather fans. They ripped the soul out of this race. But the Tour doesn't belong to them. We're the ones grinding every mile, pushing past the limits of pain and exhaustion. The most gruelling competition in the world – it belongs to us. We're masochists. We're believers. And it's our time. Take back the Tour."

At the time I thought this ties in with our Special Holiday. Reading it again, I still think so.

profmarcia: the Bewitching Pool, about the little kids who found a more nurturing world through the drain in their swimming pool.

"Sadly, Click and Clack didn't make the cut."

Two of my favorite flakes, champ.

"the Bewitching Pool"

Excellent choice, dog.

I would have to say that when all is said and done, my favorite Founding Father is Sam Adams. He might have been a radical blogger today, never relenting or backing down despite business failures and poverty.

Would have to do some research for comparison, but heard that a nation has 200 - 300 years from rise to power through collapse. The U.S. really didn't start becoming a world power until after WW I. 1918 + 200. At that rate we have about 92 years before hitting the dumpster.

Oh on the use of "candid". I believe he meant it in the sense of "unprejudiced". That the world would listen to the charges without automatically siding with the current government of Britain.

It was one of the reasons the new country sought aid from France which was an historical enemy of Britain.

MD -- if you are up and about -- Eugene Robinson has a good editorial in today's WaPo. It touches on some of the things you did in last night's conversation....

For those who haven't seen HBO's "John Adams" (being rerun this weekend), here is the clip on the writing of the Declaration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Txi1687wo&feature=related

I would have to say that when all is said and done, my favorite Founding Father is Sam Adams. He might have been a radical blogger today, never relenting or backing down despite business failures and poverty.

makes a pretty good beer too.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

"fish quiver in fear whenever my name is mentioned"

God...yet another Republican historian who says he's bipartisan, is praising Ronnie Raygun's presidency on c-span.....also trying to sell his book, The Leaders We Deserved and a Few We Didn't.

Champ, NPR started the practice maybe 15-years ago or thereabouts. I listened to the first one and it was very moving. For a number of years they replayed that broadcast and it seemed as if each year one of the original readers had died leaving nothing but fond memories and the spoken word.

The score of 1776

http://www.rhapsody.com/charliehaden/1776

The last song "Is Anybody There" is based on this quote by John Adams"

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore. "

This is a day to note also the sad irony of the simultaneous passing of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams on July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

To the founding fathers with all their faults many thanks
for providing us with the foundation that continues to
sustain this country.

To all here, Happy Fourth--enjoy the weekend

-- Margaret Mead:"
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

-- Barbara Jordan:
There is no executive order; there is no law that can require the American people to form a national community. This we must do as individuals, and if we do it as individuals, there is no President of the United States who can veto that decision.

As a first step -- As a first step, we must restore our belief in ourselves. We are a generous people, so why can't we be generous with each other? We need to take to heart the words spoken by Thomas Jefferson:

'Let us restore the social intercourse -- "Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and that affection without which liberty and even life are but dreary things."

http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/04/random-acts-of-patriotism/#more-27317

A grand and glorious 4th of July for all. As they suggest at Firedoglake..commit random acts of patriotism...

America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

oh to be sharing a flagon at the tavern, arguing passionately with my favorite buds Ben and Tom.

Sr. Horse.....do those quivering fish also sing "take me to the river" when you push the button on their plaques?

for all intents and purposes, the Declaration might as well have said......"You guys can stuff it.....we aint paying your taxes no more, and if you come over here in your fancy coats we'll kick your butts for you and send you packing."

still had to be backed up with a war.

The king could have put an end to all the uproar by simply granting the colonies seats in Parliament as the principal objection was that they had no say in the taxation vehicles.

The British had expended huge sums of money on the British colonies and wanted to recoup their losses but chose taxes that while lucrative injured the newly established businesses.

Jesse Helms has died. Probably the last of the old segregationists and arch southern conservatives. 30 years in Congress. He would have liked exiting today.

Some mention has been made today of the position of blacks within the colonies. Two of note:

Phyllis Wheatley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillis_Wheatley

Crispus Attucks (Does not reflect well on Adams as he was used to vindicate the soldiers involved in "The Boston Massacre")

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p24.html

If you keep clicking through on this link, it brings up even more prominent black names at the time of the revolution

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p37.html

The one above is the founder of the first Black Masonic Order.

Truly an excellent dramatization of Thomas Jefferson speaking his famous words from the Declaration of Independence. There is an elegant poetry in what Thomas Jefferson wrote, but not a word wasted. Each sentence sets out the visionary genius that made America the great country she is.

For me, this paragraph is the greatest: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"...

I remember reading once that the Declaration of Independence was read to a group of people who did not know what it is. When they heard about the right to "alter or abolish" destructive governments, they called it "communistic" and "treasonous". And no, I can't find where I read that...

I often wonder how Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton et al, would react seeing how our country has evolved over the years. I think they would be very proud of our accomplishments... and befuddled by many things done to our citizenry in the name of "protecting freedom"

Happy 4th to you all. I tried to convince my franchise that as an American I was not allowed to work today, but they didn't buy it!

I raise my glass today especially to Thomas Jefferson! Happy Independence Day Mr. President !!!

Adams is admired for his willingness to defend the British soldiers and Attucks is considered the first casualty in the revolution. Interesting outcome for the same event.

OLIVER WISWELL.........by Kenneth Roberts.......a view of the revolution from the Tory side.......excerpt:

There was no doubt in my mind as to who these men were. Ten years before, when I was a child of twelve, a Boston mob, in a frenzy over the Stamp Tax, had made an assault upon the house of my father's dearest friend, Thomas Hutchinson, chief justice and gov-
ernor of Massachusetts, enraged against him for no reason except that he held office under the Crown. Like my father and every other man of sense in the Colonies, Hutchinson had done everything in his
power to prevent the Stamp Tax. He was a native of Boston, a lover of his country, an able historian, a man of taste and penetration--but the mob, idiotically conceiving him to be an enemy, destroyed his furni-
ture and all his belongings, hacked his pictures to shreds, burned his precious manuscripts, notes and books; then broke into his cellar and drank itself into insensibility

---kenneth roberts

Happy Birthday peeps,

Today's thread on the the BackChannel Blog:

Independence Day by HorseDooty

http://clistersbackchannel.wordpress.com/

More history on Adams and Jefferson.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_jeffadams.html

jamie.......any idea where I could find Northwest Passage by Roberts online? I've googled me little fingers to the boney part to no avail..........

Sr Pescado said this, "Sr. Horse.....do those quivering fish also sing "take me to the river" when you push the button on their plaques?

you know, I don't have one of those things. I always thought they were the worst. No sense of humor, I guess.

The fish this morning are safe. They rejected everything I threw at them. Nightcrawlers later this evening.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Here you go Mr. Fish. Several sources

http://www.google.com/products?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS211US212&q=%22Northwest+Passage%22+Roberts&um=1&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

C-SPAN just had a focus group done by the Annenberg Center where reporters could observe the group. Fascinating comments.

http://www.c-span.org/search.aspx?For=annenberg

Jamie wrote: The king could have put an end to all the uproar by simply granting the colonies seats in Parliament as the principal objection was that they had no say in the taxation vehicles.

Me: Darn it! If we were part of England now, we would have national health care, a multiple-party political system, have our troops out of Iraq, strong monetary system, and god beer.

(Please don't report me to the patriotism police -- I still love America, such as it is.)

Good beer -- god beer is something else, lol!

Alicia

I keep hoping Canada will say, "All is forgiven, come home". : )

BTW, this is one of the expenses the British expected the colonies to cover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Plains_of_Abraham

McCain and Obama Differ on Same-Sex Marriage Initiative

“I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states,” wrote Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee.

Mr. McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, announced his support for the initiative, the California Marriage Protection Act, last month. If it passes, it would undo a recent California Supreme Court decision that gave same-sex couples the right to marry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/us/politics/03gay.html?ref=politics

This thread is about our nation's birth. Please stick to it as best you can. Current events can wait. Only six minutes to listen to the enitre Declaration of Independence by clicking the screen on this post. You'll be glad you did.

Posted by: Craig Crawford | July 4, 2008 12:38 AM

Jamie.....I guess i was looking for an impossibility....i was trying to find the whole text online to look something up......

sr horse.......yep, I cant imagine seeing one anywhere outside of a pawn shop.........

champ...a couple times we saw D.C. fireworks...in 1975 the kickoff to the bicentennial was AWESOME...we were on The Mall and the display just went on and on in breathtaking rapid-fire sequence.
When we took my aging parents a couple decades ago, we just drove to The Pentagon parking lot and saw the display from there...an excellent spot to view from...but if you have not taken off yet, go to WaPo for information.

Patsi, thanks for the Robinson editorial. He expressed something that most African Americans feel. My grandfather served in World War II in the South Pacific. When the war ended, he went back to Waco, where he was put on a Jim Crow train, while German POWs were allowed in the white section. Imagine the psychic damage that does to a man who risked his life for his country, and then is treated lesser than the enemy he bravely defeated? Oh, and when my grandfather got back, he applied for a job at Baylor, but was denied because they weren't hiring "negroes".

I'm going to write something for the Backchannel about how African Americans have always had to prove our patriotism in this country, even though we've sacrificed more, and gained less, than any other group in this country. And why E Pluribus Unum is a constant struggle when you weren't included in the original concept. Hence, a Barack Obama treated as an alien in his own country. For that, the Founding Fathers have much to answer for.

STurgeone

What quote or reference are you seeking. If you can be more specific, I might be able to find it.

I don't know for sure what you are seeking, but this page might help

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~library/Library_Bulletin/Apr1990/LB-A90-Bales.html

..."how African Americans have always had to prove our patriotism in this country, even though we've sacrificed more, and gained less, than any other group in this country."

Mr. Democrat, I would challenge you on that statement... In World War II, Japanese Americans who were of military age had to decide between their American home or the home of their heritage in Japan. Even those in Japanese-American Internment Camps had to prove their patriotism and loyalty to the United States by fighting against Japan in the most deadly assaults on the front lines.

I do not mean to diminish African American contributions to our country or their patriotism. But for Japanese American men, who fought against Japan, it was often traumatic to comprehend that the enemy was the homeland of their parents or grandparents and knowing they still had families behind in Japan, they knew they could be destroying their own...

Interesting WIKI piece on "No No Boy" -- great novel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-No_Boy

I also disagree with your assessment of how Barack Obama was treated. He was served by MSM and DNC on bended knees during the primary. And both he and Mrs. Clinton suffered because of who they were. And Blacks, Women, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Latinos, etc. etc. etc. have contributed much to prove patriotism in this country... even the white majorities.

Peace

Jamie,

While the Boston Massacre occurred in 1770...(0r 1978 for Red Sox Fans), here is a link to the first shot fired in the Revolution...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasp%C3%A9e_Affair

It's fun to watch the reenactment every year...

Craig,

With regards to your point about the Constitution being a fragile document. I agree with you but I do wonder how it will continue to evolve when we have judges who claim to be the perfect vessel for interpreting a document that was left intentionally vague to allow others to fix it when appropriate?

I see a similar parallel when looking at the protestant churches within the US. Who made James Dobson or Billy Graham the voice of Christian teachings in this country? In the eyes of history, they are part of a church that split from God's original foundation because they lacked the power they thought they deserved.

While I think it's a good thing that we average a new amendment every 12 years, I can't help but wonder if greater specificity is what's best with the constitution going forward...

ET I think MD is speaking in the vein of what Frederick Douglas once said to Lincoln, and I'm paraphrasing here. Lincoln expressed his concern to Douglas that after emancipation Negros would have trouble supporting themselves in this country. To which Douglas replied: Have no fear Mr. President we've been supporting the South for over 200 years.

This is not an exact quote, but you get the point.

Benjamin Franklin is my favorite, for not resting on his laurels(so to speak) but having other interests.

C'mon Sturg: 1789 - 1776, don't be nitpicky, I was thinking more of the constitution and how after all, he went to Versailles looking for affirmation since Britain was out of the question. And what he saw happening in France(the unrest) was the affirmation he needed..

Happy Independence Day everyone, the Declaration should be thought of, and praised more often.

politically......The "Declaration of Independence", Mr. Jefferson was farsighted, it seems. I wonder how much of it came to him as he witnessed the violence and shocking cruelty of the French Revolution, thanks be that it didn't happen that way here. Perhaps the "Constitution" that came after was in some way a protection against the random condeming of neighbors and friends for sums of money or political advancement, charges that led to the guillotine.

im sorry i dont understand the nitpicky j'accuse......the way i read the above leads me to think that you were saying that the Declaration was influenced by the French Revolution somehow......as was the constitution......since they both, constitution and declaration, came well before the FR I cant understand your point........

jamie.....much thanks.....Im just going to have to dig for my copy as it seems......

the guillotine did not come into play until well after the constitution, as well......

Gosh, Sturg, I thought Betsy Ross did the stripes while Madame Defarge did the stars.

Jefferson was also rather outspoken in his defense of French Revolution:

Thomas Jefferson quickly became a focal point or lightning rod for revolutionaries in Europe and the Americas. As United States minister to France when revolutionary fervor was rising toward the storming of the Bastille in 1789, Jefferson became an ardent supporter of the French Revolution, even allowing his residence to be used as a meeting place for the rebels led by Lafayette. Jefferson maintained his support for the French Revolution, although he wavered during the most violent and bloody stages.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jeffworld.html

Okay sturge,

STill not sure what you were seeking. If you give me a hint, if it's out there, I can find it.

Jamie, I bet he was looking for the online text of the book. Some of the ones I look for are still under copyright and are unavailable. C'est la vie. Lafayette, nous sommes ici!

Craig, perhaps you might want to comment on the Freedom of the Press bill before Congress in light of the efforts of today's Democrats. Maybe you could even take a shot at the Fairness Doctrine in light of the Press our Founders enjoyed. Would Paine, Jefferson or even Franklin support the Fairness Doctrine?

Jefferson had not seen the French revolution up close when he wrote the Declaration of Independence to understand the problems and sided with the French. So the comment way above makes no sense.

It was the Federalists who most rejected slavery and Jefferson who used a lack of a "solution" for keeping the status quo. Realists more idealistic that idealists?

What ET said about Obama....

And this:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"...

Most "Liberals" fail to understand the role of Individual Liberty in 1776. When government deprives Individuals their rights, it fails to serve the "people" which was seen more a collection of individuals, than the communality many Liberals regard it today. The reality of such huge government mandates today, the secular view that the basis of individual rights does not lie in the spiritual metaphysics of our universe, the effort by the Press to filter news and opinion as a political organ would strike them as a dangerous virus to liberty.

The Declaration of Independence was a call by free individuals to resist tyranny that impuned their individual liberty. While our Founders were limited in their inclusiveness of Democracy for all, they were tempered by both realism and idealism. I fear Liberals todays, at least those Left of me, read what they want to see in the D of I and ignore the rest.

In light of recent SCOTUS rulings, who can say the court is not in step with the intention of those who fashioned our D of I?

As I have mentioned before, Adams and Jefferson died on this day long ago. The great body of what they agreed to in their final years, would unsettle most Liberals, yet in their ying and yang, there in lies the essential tension embedded in our great experiment.

For all who imagine they can subvert this intention by political coup, may they fail miserably, whether they come from the Far Left or the Far Right. The balance in the middle is where our nation's heart is, and the pretense of center is no substitute for actual record, honesty and the desire for eventual bipartisanism Adams and Jefferson eventually showed to each other.

Ben Franklin has usually been attacked by Liberals. He never advocated a welfare state, enjoyed a monopoly on media as America's first media mogul, and was focused on the frugal and hard working approach to success. He is however, my favorite on balance. He would hardly condone the actions of the Press today, nor agree with the House version of the new Freedom of the Press Bill. He advocated for the Middle Class and not an elite group of powerful cronies.

http://stubbornfacts.us/

One thing to consider when contemplating attitudes in the colonies vs modern life is the population. Most major cities (NY Boston Charleston) only had about 5000 inhabitants. Philadelphia as the largest city had approx 25000.

While labor was individual, there was a great deal of labor/funds as part of a "commonwealth" such as grazing land for livestock, defense (militia), upkeep of roads. Charity was both public expense as well as religious and social clubs.

In modern society, it would be almost impossible to deliver the services for millions that were once delivered by a thousand people to a few, most of whom would be known to them as neighbors, friends, or fellow worshipers.

jamie......what I'm seeking is off-thread......tomorrow we'll put our headbones together and look again......

Thanks for the recommendations, fellas. Duly Noted.

Even though Jefferson is my fav FF, I'll throw in that kick-ass Pole, Thaddeus Kosciusko.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko

Enjoy the show if you're going. Give me liberty or give me death!

Shall we head into evening with James Cagney and George M. Cohan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdvrIS7-wbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDYRjuzE1vI&feature=related

True Jamie, but our nation was founded on principles far from the Nanny State concept. There was little public social programs support and even roads and bridges were hard to get funding to buld. In short, the collective good was seen more as the good for the "many individuals". We have seen a change in how the collective is seen. As far as the D of I, let us understand the threats to Liberal Democracy we are facing. Jefferson for one, would not sit back and wait for tyranny to arrive at our doorstep. With the IAEA declaring Iran could produce a bomb in six months and an Obama administration that would take far longer to figure out who to talk to, understand this:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2008/July/middleeast_July44.xml§ion=middleeast&col=

Obama has already telegraphed to Pakistan his intentions and Pakistan is moving away from us.

Obama's position on Iraq and Iran as well as Syria is actually pushing Israel to consider a strike on Iran. Hillary was far more intelligent on these issues.

Obama's call to end military support for Columbia is made silly by both the rescue of hostages and the proof on FARC computer that Hugo is helping them.

Obama's talk about cutting missile defense and DOD budget cuts encourages China's new anti-ship ballistic missile program as well as other regimes seeking missiles.

Despite the flip flopping by Obama on terrorism being a police matter, he still has no plan to contain terrorism or even get OBL. All talk and confused talk at that.

And despite Obama pretending to pivot center, his ideology does not echo the D of I and the greatest threats from tyranny he points to is our own government. Let's see how many Democrats accept a candidate who claims he has not changed positions when he has. And the mess is so confusing, credibility is thus lost competely. One Obama supporter said on CNN that the flipp flopping doesn't matter. Obama supporters are voting for Obama because they "like him as a person" and not on his positions per se....LOL

Seems our founding brothers were very clear in principle and also realistic in their foreign policy.
Even Jefferson saw the eventual folly of utopian idealism when faced with the clarity of human behavior. He admitted this to Adams before he died.

Yankee Doodle Dandee
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes_main.html?nav=slate

Big Oil's Iraq deals are the greatest stick-up in history
The country's invaders should be paying billions in reparations not using the war as a reason to pillage its richest resource
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/04/oil.oilandgascompanies

Sturgeone; 3:52 pm.... You caught me, I FU(I was under fire).

Je suis SORRY, I was thinking of the Constitution and it's amendments, not the Declaration.

How does it go....to forgive is divine............

In keeping with today's discussion

Which document precisely is the Declaration of Independence?

Today's NYT "Looking for Liberty" by Ted Widmer,
director of the John Carter Brown Library @ Brown
University

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/04/opinion/04widmer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

It seems it is complicated in that the document in the National Archives was actually not written on July 4, but rather it was a handwritten copy that Congress ordered later that summer and post-dated.

The version that was in the room as the vote was taken has never been seen since then.

Maybe a hero should be John Dunlap a 28 year old Irish immigrant who spent much of July 4, 1776 setting the type, correcting & running off broadsides of the Declaration -- some 200 in all.

These copies were then distributed throughout the colonies/states. Today 25 of the Dunlap broadsides have been located.

OH, listening to The Declaration...it says that if the government is bad for the people, we have the right to alter or abolish it & institute a new government. And the description of King George STILL fits.

How prophetic!

tt

Nathan Hale

TT

"And the description of King George STILL fits."

It's terrifying how well.

He learned today why they have stopped giving out tickets to his appearances to the general public instead of by invitation only audiences. The public got in on the act at Monicello today and he was booed a half dozen times and some of the protestors had to be escorted away.

Sturgeone; Truly, I wasn't accusing you. I was just thinking that what Jefferson saw when he was in France, maybe accounted for some of the protections for the People in the Constitution. It was just a random thought with absolutely no basis in fact, and then it seemed silly to try and explain it...........so sue me ... and have a Happy 4th.....

Just a thought....long after the American Revolution, we had others we might call our heroes. So -- on a personal, not a political level, who was the bigger hero: Abe Lincoln or John Brown?

This is a serious question. Something I have to think about when I think of freedom.

Professions of the 55 signers of the Constitutions: (many had two jobs)

35 were lawyers
13 merchants
12 owned or managed slave-operated plantations
11 speculated in securities
6 were land speculators
3 were physicians
2 scientists
2 farmers

2 scientists and 2 farmers....there ya go....

Not dissing the founders, just understanding who founded the country....

Fundamentally, a plantation is usually a large farm or estate, especially in a tropical or semitropical country, on which cotton, tobacco, coffee, sugar cane, or trees and the like are cultivated, usually by resident laborers.

Patsi

Have to go with Lincoln simply because without the Union we would be a hodge podge of states that could have been in conflict with each other in much the same way that various other geographic sections have been in conflict.

It is no accident that two of the most stable places of our size on earth with maximum freedom are Canada with its conjoined provinces and a central government and the United States.

Europe has figured that out and now has the European Union but that is still in the fussing with each other as to who is in and who is out.

A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand. still makes sense

John Brown had passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy.

Nick,

Virtually everyone did some form of farming just as a matter of survival. While John was off lawyering, Abigail was home running the family farm and it wasn't a tiny truck garden. This was true about most of the men to one degree or another.

A totally different view of patriotism, from The Progressive....

http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx070208

Excellent article Dexter except that I would quibble a bit in that what he is describing is jingoism more than patriotism. I think loving your country is fairly natural in the sense that it is "home". Jingoism is when you think your "home" is better than that of anyone else or that yours couldn't be better.

"John Brown had passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy."

And I completely agree with that. But I sometimes wonder where the truest heroes are....the people with the government behind them...or those that say, the hell with it....I'll go down making my stand.

Plus, while I long ago thought this described John Brown: "passion and commitment but without sanity, wisdom and dedication you have nothing but anarchy."....

I am no longer so sure.

Patsi,

It is the bomb throwers who shake things up. They aren't comfortable and they are dangerous, but they are often the ones who first point out an injustice. They are the anarchists, the third parties, the idealists (Ralph Nader with weapons : )

You can't let them have power or you get the Russian Revolution, but you have to have some means to move their good ideas eventually over time into the general political thought. All the great democracies have a way for these noisy, nasty folk to make changes without killing too many people in the process.

Nick

It was a matter of necessity. People couldn't exactly pop on out to Safeway. There would be major suppliers of some basics and small businesses that handled imported goods, but everything else was homegrown including medicines or handmade.

If you dumped the average modern person back in the 1700s they would be virtually helpless. This group might be the exception if we banded together. I can spin, Renee can weave, Ruth seems to have the truck garden in hand. We have a couple of chefs that could probably whip up something from the south 40. Horsedooty wasn't having too much luck with the fish earlier, but at least he knows how.

It would be interesting to take a survey of just how many 18th century skills are present in our happy little band.

Sorry, but cultural relativism doesn't work for me. Sure, cultures ARE different, but injustice at a deeper level has to do with our anthropological meme (or diviantion from it) and transcends cultural differences. That is why we find things repugnant in other cultures as well as our own. Executing minors offends us. Executing one over their religious views offends us. Rape, stealing, polluting the enviornment all strike at humanity's conscience, not just the particular rules of a particular society. Altruistic behavior is strongly attached to punishment and moves through human evolution past cultural norms.

There is a huge difference between non conformists and crazies. In any case, I just read this:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ARGENTINA_METROPOLIS_FOOTAGE?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME Now the directors cut should be interesting.........

I hope 9/11 is well. And on our Birthday, I can only think of Adam's closing line in the recent series on his life. I am not certain most Americans are aware of the sacrifice, not just for our freedom and Independence, but in the knowledge that our Liberal Democratic principles ARE a beacon for humanity standing in stark contrast to despots, tyrannies, theocracies and other malignant forms of social order that rob INDIVIDUALS of their intrinsic worth and potential, their chance for happiness and achievement.

Kudos Founding Brothers and the women who stood beside them......

Happy Independence Day to all! I think everyone here is rather special, you've all been very gracious to me, in NOT telling me to keep my Canadian ass on MY side of the border, at least on "the internets." There is so very much about America to admire, she represents the best ideas, freedom, the chance to rise from frail beginnings. She (America) also tucks an awesome responsibility into the mix. It's never simple. And balance isn't something that comes naturally. Time to count blessings!

jamie, thanks for weighing in and commenting on The Progressive Magazine article.

Now for pogo and dnd and any other Francophile or fan of cycling, the 2008 Tour de France kicks-off at 8:30 A.M. e.s.t. tomorrow on Versus Network, live streaming 2 hours earlier.

http://www.versus.com/tdf/

I can build, make things, grow things and have a basic knowledge of health and medicine. I am not sure I would be so helpless living in 1776. I wonder if I could ever make a workable condom. If not , I guess married life would be my only option....LOL

If we could take a number of books back in time with us, I'm not so sure we would all fold.

Tylenol, with all that tar oil, we'll be friends for the next hundred years. And what we do for comics?

Thanks....

Tylenol

Just staying on your good side ... McCain might get elected and we might need a place to hide. : )

That tar oil is an environmental disaster. So much for pristine images of Canada. But thanks for the sedimen..er sentiments!

Jamie, yer all welcome. LIke I said, we're just unarmed Americans with healthcare, and great jazz festivals.

No Jamie, McCain won't ditch free trade. So perhaps Canadians might like McCain. I doubt Canadians what to be defending Liberal Democracy all by themselves.

If Democrats have their way, they would stop Canada from extracting tar oil. Why would we have to hide if McCain gets elected? Obama/Pelosi is even more dangerous. They'll sue OPEC and you won't be able to afford driving to Canada....

sue OPEC? Americans RUN OPEC. The price of gas is what THEY want (in American dollars too!). Cmon Max, oilmen sat at the cabinet table DROOLING the past 8 years. And we'll defend Liberal Democracy for a long long time, Max. Liberals are our natural governing party.

Read what Tylenol says about the crud being extracted up there. It's time to ditch the fossil fuels once and for all. Bite the bullet and get it done before we destroy the last of the pristine places.

On the skills list, my son is a blacksmith so we have pots and pans, harnesses and the horses have shoes. Now if we have a leatherworker, the people will have shoes as well.

Canada is sitting on top of the world's largest fossil fuel reserves. We landed a guy on the moon and you think tar oil c