Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

thanks, jack, for the article yesterday on appalachian dialect. in it there was also mention of research that shows financial bias against southern accents. the MSM seems to have disregard for those politicians who drawl: jimmy carter, LBJ, bill c come to mind.... even john edwards was dismissed as 2nd tier. no matter how smart, how well educated.

oh btw, good morning all you happy trail mixers (and uhappy ones too!

patd,

You've got that right. Just because people 'talk slow' doesn't mean that their brains aren't in high gear.

Good Morning all you early morning, cheerful Trail Mixers,

I've been busy and haven't been able to join in as much as I'd like,
but I've been faithfully reading the posts each day.

What struck me as curious is that recently some felt it necessary to malign us
perky, A.M., chipper bloggers by accusing us of not focussing enough
on politics and chatting to much about how nice it was to share peaceful conversation before someone comes along and writes something snarky.

That sounds pretty bitter to me, don't you think?

"about how nice it was to share peaceful conversation before someone comes along and writes something snarky. "

Well, I'm certainly guilty -- if that's the word they want to hear -- of responding with as much snark as some of the ones who come strictly to disrupt. But the pattern has not changed. The Freeper-types get it started, then when some of us respond in kind or worse, the chorus of tut-tutters show up to chastize us. It's obvious that -- like what happened to so many posters on Kos, etc -- that the effort is concentrated to encourage us to leave. And they are close to convincing me.

I guess have heard that the New York "Traitor" Times ask McCain to "FIX" his Op-Ed piece so that it fits the motto of the paper. All the "treason" that's fit to print.

VJ Machiavelli
http://www.vjmachiavelli.blogspot.com
ps The Obama campaign has also a new back up airplane It is called "WITHDRAWAL TWO", and it is reserved for the Democ"rat"ic memmbers of congress, and "Media Elites"

Did any of you see the PBS special, "Do You Speak American"? The dialects were amazing; southern, northeastern, farmers, fisherman. Growing up in the Midwest & picking up a bit of a drawl from years in Texas, I do notice that people react differently. Now the farmers up there sound like they have an accent to me. I had an aunt from Buras, LA...couldn't understand a word she said; my uncle had been raised in the Midwest & he had quite an accent after a couple of decades down there, too.

Not sure what H Ford Jr., is getting upset about. Clearly, the Jesse Jackson/BO thing is generational; it's not being pointed out because of race. It's like when a pretty girl enters a room and the men get stupid...and the rest of us feel kinda bad because that used to be us they were getting stupid over.

B'rye - You'd better ditch the cargo shorts in favor of jeans. "...thieves are twisting the brass nuts off..."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721/ap_on_bi_ge/hydrant_thefts

I have to correct my typo:

I meant "too" much

Has Craig been in some horrible, disfiguring accident?
Look at him...just laying there in that hammock. He hasn't moved for six days!

"Not sure what H Ford Jr., is getting upset about. Clearly, the Jesse Jackson/BO thing is generational"

Was Harold on Morning Joe?

Ah, for the old days when we could edit our posts to correct typos. The thing about snarkfest '08 is that we used to have really heated discussions about things like illegal immigration, but we were still OK with each other...umm, guess that was probably a couple of years ago now. Time flies.

Only 5 more dots to connect and we can blame Kevin Bacon for high gas prices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/us/politics/22adbox.html?ref=politics

good morning gang....

gonna be mucho busy until mid-August....

Patsi.... I bet things will change a bit when Craig comes back....
you know how it is with children when daddy is away..... they all of a sudden act as if they have balls....

prof Marcia.... seeing "to" written instead of "too" used to be one of my pet peeves..... I had to learn to get over it and not think the person dumb when I started blogging.....

oh yeah..... isn't it great to be here in the morning and be sooooooo happy..... :0)

Patsi,

I know what you mean. Although I have always tried to remain civil,
when one of those nasty, anonymous posters attacks you, it's really hard
to ignore them. (Or when anyone seems to unnecessarily go after someone,
the natural reaction is to defend oneself).

I'm beginning to feel like giving up posting here, too. It sometimes feels like
anything I write with Obama's name it, (if it's not overtly praising him) is like blood to sharks. Frankly, it's tiresome and draining to constantly feel like I have to be on the defensive.

"Only 5 more dots to connect and we can blame Kevin Bacon for high gas prices."

Jeezus! It's 6:42 am here in TN and already Blue has the Line of the Day! ROFL!

Yes, HFJ on MoJo...and Meeker not bowing quite so low at the alter of BO anymore.

I move that we are also allowed to use 2 instead of to or too...although if we all start typing completely in
I M-ese it might get confusing.

Lard -- I'm anxious to hear what Craig did with his vacation time! I'm also anticipating seeing him on television again.

Rebellious Renee,

I used to think that, too. . .until I started blogging. Another pet peeve is
there, their and they're. . but I've grown far less critical in regard to typos
on blogs, since I surprised myself by making a lot of them.

did imus just say to george steph that hillary would be better than the other two?

And I'm just hoping Craig's trip didn't involve an outing to the E/R. Should we start a pool to see if we can guess if/what happened to him?

Blue -- about accents....when I was in high school and went to Chicago for the first time, a woman in the gift shop of the hotel asked me what part of the South I was from. That was when the Southern governors were at their worst and I despised all things Southern because of them. So I was horrified. I explained that I was from Kansas, certainly not the South. But for the first time I realized that I certainly did have a kind of Okie border twang.

Lard - That was from the trip to Costa Rica, I think, when he about fell in with the 'gators.

patsi - I went to Mt. Vernon when I was in HS and a little boy waked up to me and said, "Y'all are Yankees, aren't cha"? He said it with such disdain.

Blue and Patsi,

Have you ever been to England? There are tons of different accents.

At one time, in Britain, people were classified and kept in a certain social group based solely or almost solely on their accent. Remember, "My Fair Lady?"

Blue -- so far this morning I've read two pieces online that refer to Jesse Jackson wanting to "castrate" Obama. I think that complete mischaracterizes his comments. That cut-the-nuts off kind of talk is trash street talk and just a figure of speech. Same as to "shoot somebody down" doesn't mean to literally shoot them with a gun.

""Y'all are Yankees, aren't cha"? He said it with such disdain."

Ha! My son got that kind of comment here in TN when we moved from Denver.

patd,

Yes, you heard Imus correctly. What's more, he sounded like he meant it.

George Steph didn't take the bait. Even acknowledged that Senator Obama won by running a better campaign.

Glad I wasn't just projecting the disdain...I think. He'd never know it now. Not aat naaught whin aam tarred, anyway.

prof M - No, I'm waiting for the Queen to invite me to tea. I remember an ep of "All Creatures Great & Small." They thought this fella was Russian because they heard his name was Pimmerof...turns out, it was Pimm of Roth.

Yeah, I think it's just Jesse not ready for the torch to be passed yet. Kind of a reverse Oedipul comlex with political fame as the mommy & the daddy wanting to get rid of the son.

here's a recent article I found interesting in the Christian Science Monitor....

it's substance over style....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0717/p09s01-coop.html

RR...thanks for the read. I find Gergen to be one of the most balanced on politics. He has worked for both parties and I like his perspective.

RR -- Yes -- a very good article. And I agree especially with this:

"Fascinating as it now is to follow the horse race between Barack Obama and John McCain, we now need something deeper from both of them: a better understanding their priorities and values, their visions and strategies for realizing them, their approaches to building teams and coalitions, and a more concrete sense of how they will govern. "

Today's Bob Herbert talks about a new book that tells just how horrid Bush has been for the US

Madness and Shame

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/opinion/22herbert.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

Good Morning All

Patsi, don't you even vaguely think of going anywhere.

I haven't posted much, but I have been reading the blog when not working. As I have mentioned before, since the gal is gone, I have very little interest in the election. GWB is going to be out of office no matter what and I am anticipating one big hangover for the US by next January. Once we wake-up with our one night stand prez, will we really be happier? Or will we just have slept with one more problem?

Jamie....I often wondered how and why Rumsfeld got away with his war crimes. And perhaps the worst legacy of the Bush administration is the absolute vacuum they have created in White House and how that has caused this election to suck so much. : )

Rummy must have a very good lawyer. There have been at least three attempts to charge him with war crimes. There also was a lawsuit for improper use of data bases containing the names of draft registrants(and names of young men required to register.)

dog-
Thanks again for the tip on the smoked paprika. I made a mulberry mole' (hardly knew the collards were in there :) )

Speaking jessie being jealous cause the new kid has the voters tongues on the floor begging for a date, I'm terrified Shrub will do something to try to seem "relevant" rather than huddling quietly until we can throw him out on his ear.

Dog EV...where is Rumsfeld? The MSM sure let him disappear.

Rummy is at the Hoover Institute Stanford

dog
Some chef had made a blackberry mole. I liked xrep's idea of adding fruit to the collards...and I have a lot of mulberries...viola

KGC...thanks. He sure lands on his feet.

"Today's Bob Herbert talks about a new book that tells just how horrid Bush has been for the US"

Thanks for the link, Jamie. That was a really good article. I listened to a show on NPR the other day that went into detail on the book, and just what control Cheney has had over the government. I huess it had become such a joke that it was easy to forget at times that a joke can be the absolute truth. After listening to the author talk, it was obvious that Cheney has been damn near running this government.

"Once we wake-up with our one night stand prez, will we really be happier? Or will we just have slept with one more problem?"

Blonde -- now you've tied Blue for line of the day, IMO! You guys are sharp for so early!

Re the need for an FDR, I think it is very possible that there will be very, very bad economic times combined with the unsettled war and the threat of extremism that could pop up anywhere.

It isn't just an FDR. It's a cabinet that isn't a bunch of yes men and think more about the country's welfare than they do about their own.

I would love to see Pelosi tossed out of the Speakership along with her pet Senator Reid, but I don't see any replacements on the horizon.

Just in time for the conventions, congress relaxes rules on lobbyists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121634105161964043.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Gotta go make breakfast. Back in a bit.

"I often wondered how and why Rumsfeld got away with his war crimes. And perhaps the worst legacy of the Bush administration is the absolute vacuum they have created in White House and how that has caused this election to suck so much. : )"

Well worded!

And we all remember how Maureen Dowd cheerleaded Rummy with her talk of his rock star status.

"Rumsfeld and other potential war criminals: we should watch for news of their travels abroad and whether they seem to be curtailing foreign travel."

I've wondered about that dog.

Also -- When you really think about those criminals going to Ashcroft's bedside while he was in the hospital trying to get him to sign off on their crimes....

"Parents of "autism brats" fight back"

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2008/07/parents-of-auti.html

That Savage comment was un-freaking-believable! But good for Aflac:

"Savage says he's giving over his three-hour broadcast on Monday to a discussion of autism. Meanwhile, Aflac, the insurance company, has withdrawn advertising from the show. "

Thought this may be of particular interest to many who congregate here.

"Women are now equal as victims in poor economy"

After moving into virtually every occupation, women are being afflicted on a large scale by the same troubles as men: downturns, layoffs, outsourcing, stagnant wages or the discouraging prospect of an outright pay cut.

The proportion of women holding jobs in their prime working years, 24 to 54, peaked at 74.9% in early 2000.

Eight years later, it is 72.7%, (while a seemingly small decline, that 2.2% erases more than 12 years of gains for women)

The pattern is roughly similar among the well-educated & the less educated, amond married & never married, among mothers with teenagers & children under 6, among white women & black.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/business/22jobs.html?hp

"A sampling of the photographs taken by Cpl. Jason Bogar while on his three tours of duty

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92757330&ft=1&f=1001

These are really good photos - but very tragic

Yes! I hope more follow Aflac actions

There is freedom of speech, so the best way to fight back is the wallet.

go Aflac !

"After moving into virtually every occupation, women are being afflicted on a large scale by the same troubles as men: downturns, layoffs, outsourcing, stagnant wages or the discouraging prospect of an outright pay cut. "

Coreen -- just heard first hand yet another example. A woman I know was laid off at the GM plant here in TN....she'd been making $21 an hour. Now, months later, after her savings are gone, they offered her the same job again...at $14 an hour.

On the subject of Autism, I would dearly love to know what research is being done re causes. I know Mercury is suspect, but wonder if it isn't tied to several forms of pollution. Are there "Autism pockets' in certain geographical areas.

Even conceding that children such as this would have once been shipped off to asylums, you would think that at some point in my geographically varied childhood, I would have known about one, but I didn't. They were either very well hidden or much more rare than the one in 150 quoted in the article.

Interesting analysis of the Israelis' position on the US elections

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/07/22/obama_to_face_skepticism_during_mideast_trip/?page=2

Coreen....those stats are pretty depressing....new "back of the bus" moment for women. I guess SNL was right, bitch is the new black.

Patsi,

These are the issues that I find so miserably lacking in the discussions by the candidates for President.

Katherine,

If you are around, as to the DNC/faith outreach (or whatever it really is) articles from late last night---good example of why I am increasingly distancing myself from the democratic party.

I 'd like to restate something regarding the Trail Mix and the Back Channel. I see no reason that anyone can't enjoy both. They are different from each other, and both are open blogs.

The constant mentioning here, of "those", "who fled", and "why do they do this or that,"sounds really catty, and totally disrupts the flow of Craig's Trail Mix Blog. If you want to say those things fine, but it doesn't accomplish anything positive.

Actually, I can see how it might actually encourage more division. Is that the goal here???

Another point, if you want to continue complaining, drop the innuendo and just use names....we can all handle it. Nothing will ever change if cowardly attacks are allowed to be leveled against the unnamed.

The women's employment numbers reflect something that has been going on for a long while. Several years ago if a business wanted to cut costs they unloaded their near to retirement men and promoted women at much lower salaries.

Then they started having "secretaries" perform management level jobs, again at lower salaries ... no title, no money.

Then came the elimination of union gained benefits that had been formerly been extended to white collar, non union employees. Moving company insurance costs to the employee, and finally downsizing and outsourcing.

Top this off with hiring immigrants who pushed out higher paid personnel in hospitals and the service industries.

It is going to get a lot uglier before it gets better as China and India's middle classes grow by leaps and bounds.

Why isn't anyone interested in the anointing of a candidate, rather than electing one. Neither Dem has a majority without the elite party members overshadowing the stupids that vote.

Jamie,

I don't know much about autism, but some are saying vaccinations may cause it, and Mothers are having to make the decision of whether to vaccinate or not without knowing for sure the risks.

That causes many problem s down the road regarding entrance to schools.

I have a question for those who know any details about what gun laws actually involve. I'm hearing people screaming that a ban on assault weapons means the govt. could take away people's shotguns, since they can be easily sawed off. That makes no sense to me, and I've said so. But these people say this is absolute fact coming from their god, the NRA.

Seems to me that too many people hunt with shotguns to ban them and this is just one more way for the NRA to spread BS.

Anyone know anything about this?

Blonde,

Thanks for injecting a bit of humor into such a dismal outlook for many women. That is something we can always use here.

Oh, & at least we are still "on the bus, not under it"--well not yet anyway.

"good example of why I am increasingly distancing myself from the democratic party." posted by Coreen.

Ditto for me!

In fact, Coreen, I finally do get the message of change. Call me menopausal, but I like the idea of reformulationg my political ideals at this time of my life. I owe nothing to either party.

Coreen

I don't get it. At a time when the Democrats could be moving ahead, they are courting those who want their religions values insitutionalized in civil law.

It's enough to make one turn Green.

Gun laws are to protect the PEOPLE from the government not to provide a means for hunting!!!

UB

While conceding that morning folks do compliment themselves for the pleasant conversation, you will note that there are a lot more articles and discussion of issues. In fact those of the BC engage in more substantive conversation as well. It seems we have become tribal and only raise our heads above the trenches to fire shots at each other.

Maybe if we could make an effort to reduce the snarkiness and concentrate on the issues rather than who is discussing them, there could be some semblance of actual conversation. If we work at it, it just might become natural again.

Call me menopausal, but I like the idea of reformulationg my political ideals at this time of my life. I owe nothing to either party. Blonde wino

Coreen and Blonde,
May I say "ditto for me" too.
I think a lot of us are in the process of reformulating our political ideals.

Hear ya Blonde

Check this thread out about Obama irony

http://stubbornfacts.us/media_bias/lost_in_translation#comment-15538

Pats, great thread at Stubborn Facts on Shotguns and new DC effort to over turn Heller again. Thread is from last week and addresses shotguns which DC mayor considers semi automatics....LOL

Brrito, I gues McCain's strategy has won Iraq. See link above. Now aren't you glad those lives weren't lost in vain?

Dog, a year ago NYT claimed Iraq was Lost. Were they right? Did the surge work and was Obama wrong? See link above.

Patsi....the few times I have seen the back blog, it made me realize just how powerful you are....they had to set-up another blog just to deal with you!

I would be flattered if I were you....you really are getting to them, but they aren't getting to you!

Now this is the media not doing their job correctly. Senator Reed, the senior senator on the codel is doing a press conference. you see pictures of him talking with no volume but the announcement that Sen. Obama will be "holding a news conference" shortly.

This reflects badly on Sen Obama and adds to the image of being "arrogant" or acting like a "star", when it is actually the media that is creating the image.

C-SPAN hearing on Climate Change, global warming, and the Environment is on now.

http://stubbornfacts.us/domestic_policy/civil_liberties/really_what_part_of_no_do_you_not_understand

for Pats

http://stubbornfacts.us/domestic_policy/civil_liberties/what_part_of_no_do_you_fail_to_comprehend

Actually, Pats, if you read the thread above, you'll see your quote about McCain.....and a comment about shot guns. Ask Tully, he'll know the answer to your question for sure.

Again, my ignorance is showing, but why is our candidate of peace talking of escalating the war in Afganistan? Is the answer really Afganistan? Do we even need to continue the charade?

Really has me wondering....fighting a war where geography doesn't apply, but hey,' the last place seen' should be good enough for me, I guess.

With all of this change, it sure seems like the same old same. Still can't shake the image of BHO as a mirror image of GWB.

On McCain's VP Timing
"Here are two more reasons why it's not likely John McCain will announce his vice presidential selection this week:

Mitt Romney, for one, is out of the country and has no plans to return until the end of the week.

So is Cindy McCain. (No, they're not together.)

Kind of hard to imagine a VP rollout without the spouse.."

Patsi....the few times I have seen the back blog, it made me realize just how powerful you are....they had to set-up another blog just to deal with you!

I would be flattered if I were you....you really are getting to them, but they aren't getting to you!

Posted by: Blonde wino | July 22, 2008 10:01 AM

Wino,,,,,,Please do not make Legends Where Legends Are Not.....

The truth is, its was very hard to sit here and read all the negative stuff here against about whatever Obama. You all assemblied here with you hopes for Clinton and then in your anger pushed most of us out.

You congratulatory act just now gave a blank pass to the one person who has made my life a bit hard for close to two years.

While she and I are begining to mend, do not make it harder please. This type of subtle slapping is just that. Please become more sensitive to this type of division.

like Jamie said, we should be trying to stop the little bites.

Just pointing one out.

Prof Marica, If you go back and read and admit some truth, you will find that some of what you said today would be misread too.

just pointing this out. As long as you treat us as outsiders, we will keep highlighting the atmosphere here.

Wino, we at the baby blog strive to be only a blog that talks politics. Please come over and trying. Its very educational and lifting for a bunch of people who feel free enough to bring up anything and get some great answers and some education back.

OK. That is all from me today.

Irony dead and buried

Thanks, Sheila....I still like Patsi and she is a legend in my mind. : )

Chef Shiela...I like you, too. Always have.

Why Jesse Jackson Hates Obama
"Mr. Obama has already won a cultural mandate to the American presidency. And politically, he is now essentially in a contest with himself. His challenge is not Mr. McCain; it is the establishment of his own patriotism, trustworthiness and gravitas. He has to channel a little Colin Powell, and he no doubt hopes his trip to the Middle East and Europe will reflect him back to America with something of Mr. Powell's stature..."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121668579909472083.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

I'm glad Wino.

She in mine at one time too!

Just please try not to unitentionally demonize all of us.

And ignore the anons who just wait for the most opportune time to whip it up. Its like a subliminal attack in blog form.

Like miss Irony Dead and Buried.

She was with me last night too I think..... ;0)

Chloe....I am one of the few Americans who feels Colin Powell really sold us out at the UN for Cheney's war in Iraq. I get chastised by many people who really love Powell, but his hands are just as dirty as Rumsfeld's. In fact, his hands may be just as bloody.

Too bad, but we should be discussing the ERA

http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/

instead of more war.

At least Powell is sorry

Do you feel responsible for giving the U.N. flawed intelligence?
I didn’t know it was flawed. Everybody was using it. The CIA was saying the same thing for two years. I gave perhaps the most accurate presentation of the intelligence as we knew it—without any of the “Mushroom clouds are going to show up tomorrow morning” and all the rest of that stuff. But the fact of the matter is that a good part of it was wrong, and I am sorry that it was wrong.

http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_5900

This article also contains an excellent exchange on affimative action in the military.

Thanks Wino.

You are one of my favorites here and most of us on the Baby Blog had wondered where you were. Glad you are back.

AND I think, your rethink on Parties is a healthy thing. However, I hope you go on reading and learning like I did. Going on a feeling without balancing with some hard evidence is not a good thing.

Both parties and all afilitiations of politics and ideology here in the US are all because it takes all types of peole and beliefs to make this country fine. We are a but broken now. its going to take hard work and not just one generation to rebuild what we were.

It wasn't just GW Bush that did it. If you look back over 40 years, you can pin point how it happened.

But you know? With some education and hard work we and our children can do something for our grandchildren.

Ok Time fore Work and thank you for allowing me some time here.

Blonde,

Thank you for posting the ERA amendment info. Will need to go over it in more detail later.

I knew that it was not approved by enough states at the time it was expiring, glad to see that the latest introduction in congress does not include a timetable for the states to ratify--but that it languishes there should not be acceptable to any of us.

Coreen...the concept has been around since 1923...and doesn't appear to be catching on.

KGC....sounds like the Scott McClelan excuse for Powell. When I first heard of WMDs, I thought, what a bunch of crap.

Still is a bunch of crap, but warmongers are everywhere and need very little prompting to provoke another skirmish (I am talking world, not blog).

"Back in May, Obama referenced having visited 57 states; today on Face the Nation, the very junior Senator from Illinois said this:

“[T]he objective of this trip was to have substantive discussions with people like President Karzai or Prime Minister Maliki or President Sarkozy or others who I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years.”

Surely he knows that two terms is eight years or is he hoping for a repeal of the Twenty-second Amendment."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/22/obama%e2%80%99s-great-expectations-and-modest-objective/#more-3716

Sheila....
as someone who has always respected both you and Patsi....
IMO.... no one "pushed" you off this blog..... you are an adult.... you left of you own volition..... as Patsi just did when she logged off.....

I lurked the BC in the very beginning and thought it was pretty good..... then came maggisd's post of why she was voting for McCain..... the responses were all along the lines of....."I disagree with you, but respect your right to vote for whom you want".....
funny..... some of those same posters come over here and call anyone who claims they're voting for McCain as being desperate.... having sour grapes.... coming out as the repugs they've been all along....

that's the quintessence of hypocrisy in my book..... I haven't looked at the BC since.....

I want a discussion of issues too..... but at this point.... I feel to even hint that I'm disappointed in both candidates (which I am).... seems to be an insult to most of the Obama supporters.... I want to be able to look at both candidates' positions critically without the name calling.....

Blonde wino.

I think you have a good point. Powell had to know that some of his facts were questionable. The big problem I have is the constant use of WMD as if a chemical weapon is the equal of a nuclear one. I think we all thought that there were chemical weapons in Iraq and maybe Saddam might give them to terrorist. But the chance of Saddam having a nuclear weapon was approaching zero, and the idea floated by the Bushies that Saddam would give them to a terrorist is laughable.

Jack

Hi RR....

I have to run, but always nice to hear/see you.

I really have to get to work...too much work these days and still falling behind.

Like I said yesterday Gordo,

Even scarier is his 'expectation' of his inevitable 'election', not his poor math.

Blonde,
I agree with you about Powell.

I may be wrong to do it, but sometimes I link a story I found interesting, but don't necessarily endorse or 'completely' agree with every single idea in it.

I enjoy looking at all sides of things, enjoy hearing all the different opinions here and have not totally made up my mind about anything. Some would probably call that wishy washy (or much worse), but things are changing and so am I.

Just want to make sure no one takes me too seriously I have no agenda and I'm never trying to change anyones mind about anything. I enjoy you all and am here more as to soak up the knowledge than anything else.

Obama "birth certificate"

"... Sunday an expert in electronic document forensics released a detailed report on the purported birth certificate -- actually a "Certification of Live Birth" or COLB -- claimed as genuine by his campaign. The expert concludes with 100% certainty that it is a crudely forged fake: "a horribly forgery," ...

After more than a month of controversy and demands that the Obama campaign produce a paper birth certificate for analysis, this damning new evidence raises the stakes for the democratic party and its front-runner.

Will Obama and his people continue to stonewall in the facing of the mounting evidence of forgery, and provide paper proof of an authentic, original birth certificate or even a genuine secondary Certificate of Live Birth?"

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12993.htm#loginPostForm

So do you.

Craig, please use your influence to improve info flow on MSNBC. People who are very busy in their lives think with 24/7 news coverage SOMEONE is keeping track of important stories. It's not true. MSNBC spends hours each day interviewing the same talking heads who speculate on what may or may not happen months from now. There are too many of them and they talk over each other. No firm figures are given on how big the fed deficit is, no firm figs on how big our economy is. No research is done, it's just the sharing of opinions. And god forbid a car chase filmed from a helicopter becomes available, MSNBC runs to it like a kitten to a new ball of yarn.

Keep on keepin' on, Chloe. I don't think you should feel the need to tailor your arguments or queries to suit the perceived palatability of vicious idealogues.

Chloe

That is a very dangerous attitude, curious people don't make good sheep.

"Two legs good. Four legs bad.
Two legs good. Four legs bad.
Two legs good. Four legs bad.
Two legs good. Four legs bad."

:-)

Jack

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-tuesday.html#comment-118707

Jamie...Children with autism were much more rare. As recently as 1987, when my son was born, the incidence of autism was 1 in 2500. Since that time, the incidence rates have skyrocketed. Today, the rate is placed at 1 in 150, but that tells only part of the story. Because of estrogen's protective effect on brain function, girls are much less likely to be affected than boys. The incidence of autism among boys is 1 in 80.

Yes, mercury is suspect. If you look at the symptoms of mercury poisoning alongside the symptoms of autism, you'll find them astonishingly similar. But I'm sure you're right that many toxins are involved in the systemic damage that is being done to so many of our children.

Research to ferret out the true causes is badly hampered by the prevailing 'pro big business' stance of our government. Big pharma is protected at every turn (from the all powerful and oh-so-frightening parents of disabled children) by our government, and by the laws that have been passed to prevent them from 'suffering' the effects of product liability. There are, however, increasing numbers of organizations that have formed for the purpose of helping fund research into environmental triggers for autism. Most of us who are active in the community recognize that there are multiple causes, that mercury is likely a major culprit, and that autism is probably the unfortunate meeting of genetic predisposition with environmental triggers.

"have freed their members to vote however they need to vote to get reelected" http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-tuesday.html#comment-118754

Now there's a new and different idea. Let them vote according to what will please their constituency instead of voting the way they are ordered to. Can you imagine if all the representatives did that.

Jack,
That's why I'm always in trouble.

tes73

MsNBC doesn't do news, imo.
And I don't think Craig has a lot of power over there either.

Jack

"As Barack bumbles his way through his grand brand marketing tour of the Middle East and Europe, which largely consists of attempting to look Presidential in front of a lap dog press corp against ancient backdrops, the Islamic jihad spits in his face and attacks Jews in Jerusalem just yards from Obama's hotel ...

Watching Barack answer questions in Jordan, one has to pray that the American people see how he stutters and stumbles and essentially says nothing when speaking off the cuff. If the folks are watching him, this "world tour" will do him more harm than good, if one goes past the photo ops of course. He actually looks like he is playing President for a day."

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/2nd-tractor-att.html

"...the concept has been around since 1923"

Well actually a lot longer. The suffragettes were among the most ardent abolitionists, not to mention that Abigail asked John not to forget the ladies, so she must have been thinking along those lines in the 1700s

Jamie

You women are always stirring up trouble

Grin, duck and run.

Gotta get back to work.

Jack

Chloe

There is a song in that somewhere.

Jack

Blonde wino....
thanks.... I always enjoy seeing your posts too....

Chloe.... glad you've decided to come back.....

gotta run.... see you all later....

Sheila....
as someone who has always respected both you and Patsi....
IMO.... no one "pushed" you off this blog..... you are an adult.... you left of you own volition..... as Patsi just did when she logged off.....

I lurked the BC in the very beginning and thought it was pretty good..... then came maggisd's post of why she was voting for McCain..... the responses were all along the lines of....."I disagree with you, but respect your right to vote for whom you want".....
funny..... some of those same posters come over here and call anyone who claims they're voting for McCain as being desperate.... having sour grapes.... coming out as the repugs they've been all along....

that's the quintessence of hypocrisy in my book..... I haven't looked at the BC since.....

I want a discussion of issues too..... but at this point.... I feel to even hint that I'm disappointed in both candidates (which I am).... seems to be an insult to most of the Obama supporters.... I want to be able to look at both candidates' positions critically without the name calling.....

Posted by: RebelliousRenee | July 22, 2008 11:05 AM

Now Renee......

Like I said before Patsi and I have made some inroads here.

I was just explaining that to wino. Why don't you read before you you berate!

honestly.........I never said and I am Disgusted at your reation.
I am trying very hard to understand how to smooth the lines again. So is Jamie and Patsi too.

Honestly, did you even read this morning or did you skim?

Jamie, thank you for making and effort to do some Kumbaya. Much appreciated.

Renee, of all people....I never thought you. You can just ignore me unless you have something constructive to say.

Renee,
Thank you

"autism is probably the unfortunate meeting of genetic predisposition with environmental triggers."

I hope the autism and alzheimer researchers are comparing notes. "Senile Dementia" as a diagnosis has been around from a long time, but you were normally talking about people in their 80s not early onset plus it was much more rare (in genealogy you get to look at a lot of death certificates).

I know that none of my relatives or to my knowledge the families of friends had anything worse that the elderly form of mild "forgetfulness". This total disconnect between mind and personality in large numbers is new.

When you add in cancers, sperm deformation and a whole slew of other nasty items, you wonder if Mother Nature isn't fighting back and trying to get rid of the infestation doing so much damage (or that we are doing it to ourselves for the sake of profits).

I don't think you should feel the need to tailor your arguments or queries to suit the perceived palatability of vicious idealogues. Posted by: champ | July 22, 2008 11:23 AM

Champ,
I don't know if you're still here, but I read your stuff from late yesterday and have to say that I really agree with your philosophy. And I get it. You make perfect sense to me - always.

Gotta go.

Sheila...I think RebRen just politely disagreed with you, professed her respect for you and credited you for being an adult. I'm not sure why you went to DefCon 1.

Jamie...

Hmmm...I've been saying for some time that this planet is going to shake us (humankind) off like a bad case of fleas, meaning that the planet will fight back. Yes, I think it's begun.

Do you recall a conversation we had a while back when I told you that I thought Alzheimer's and autism might be two sides of the same coin? The elderly have a knowledge base to lose; newborns and the very young do not. So...are we simply seeing what the effects of all this toxic damage look like at the two ends of the age spectrum. I think it's a possibility, and long ago began discussing that speculation with my son's doctors. There are doctors who are looking into the connection, though not fast enough to suit me. I know one...Dr. Hugh Fudenberg...who believes that 5 or more consecutive years of flu shots will increase your odds of getting Alzheimer's tenfold. Actually, I know several docs who believe that, but Dr. Fudenberg was the first I heard openly discuss it.

blonde wino

At least Powell is pretending to be sorry :)

Sheila,

I think that a lot of the BC group gets blamed for the actions of a few, some regular and some drop in trouble makers. I know being called racist, closet republican etc didn't improve my outlook on the supporters of Sen. Obama.

Maybe we all need to take a step back and be specific. If some "ONE" says something of the type above or adds some hominy to the stew, we can object to the "SINGLE" statement and not assume that it applies to everyone else who might be a supporter of another current or former candidate.

Renee has been among the most balanced among us. If her feelings have been bruised, you know it has gotten really rough.

Also, can we delete "Kumbaya" from the language. It is a bit too gooey, sunday come to meeting. A simple acknowledgement that things haven't been wonderful and we are working on making it better should suffice.

Jamie, Harborwoman...I love the idea of the planet "fighting back."
That could be the moral thread of a great disaster flick!

Et tu, Brute? Heh.

Like a soap opera in here.

Thanks Chloe. Nice to know I'm not talking to myself.

Jamie,

40 years ago, when I was in college, I worked at a hospital where one of the patients had senile dementia. She was 45 years old.

Early onset isn't an entirely new phenomenon, but there does seem to be more of it. Could it be that we were misdiagnosing or under diagnosing in the 'good old days'?

Champ...

Soap Opera = incredibly good-looking people without jobs sitting around all day wearing fabulous clothes in fabulous surroundings doing nothing but manufacturing drama.

I guess we have a LITTLE bit in common with that genre.

Lardo

My clothes budget could use a little augmentation.

xrepublican

I know that it happened in younger people and was more common in coal mining towns in my research. There has been some connection in agricultural workers exposed to pesticides in both physical and mental effects. What we are probably looking at is some kind of combination of pollution plus genetic predisposition.

There are also diseases with high fevers that can affect the brain and your patient might have been one of those. You are right that the diagnosis in earlier decades doesn't have the same accuracy as we are likely to see today.

I had the same suspicion xrep. Not to mention the fact that mercury has been highly mitigated within the last generation. I know older folks who used to play with mercury in their bare hands like a toy.

Off to store. See you all later.

Sunstein V. Greenwald
FISA - on Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/22/stream

'champing at the bit'

Never mind Lard.

I just have a hard time being taken to task for something she actually hasn't paid attention too.

So, please by all means please try and not interpret something else.

I was talking to Wino. it was a Kumbaya moment. I was actually trying to cross the divide.

Only to be mistaken and hand slapped for a better meaning.

Not very many have paid attention to what has happened here before and until this morning, not very many are paying attention the attempts to come here and take part.

i did no attacking of anyone today and defended myself against Renee's berating of me. It took it that way so It must be.

I would appreciate all of you to step back for a moment when you want to disparage any of us and take a look at what others have written.

None of this will get resolved with the kind of off hand remarks that go on.

just saying. So I am gone for the week. I'll try again next week.

Blond Wino, thanks for your kindness and CHAMP! Enjoyed last night. Very educational. Would love to engage further on some of your views.

If I hadn't been watching so much of Star Trek I'd have asked some questions.

ANd Champ.

I thought some of Ron Paul's Long held principles are commendable. The fact that he has not had a pay check from the Government in a while is amazing and that he takes his leave periods to practice Pro Bono is outstanding.

He's a true hero on those accounts.

Thanks Sheila. By associating yourself with a certain cause (with some particularly vicious adherents, in my opinion), you will be subject to attacks on the entire group by proxy. Not that that's a good thing, just the way it is.

He's a better man than I'll ever be. No reason no to try, however.

UB...

Upthread you talked about vaccines. The doctor who has the vaccine schedule I would follow if I were a new mom is Dr. Donald Miller of the University of Washington. His takes into account the possibility that we need to allow the immune system time to mature before assaulting our babies with so many immune challenges. Anyway, the link below is what he had to say about the subject in 2004...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html

There are others who also discuss this issue if you're interested enough to look into it. One is Dr. Stephanie Cave of LSU (I think). Just google her.

As far as vaccines go, my belief is that we give far too many of them. Some are critical (polio), some are necessary (DTaP), and some are simply products designed to increase the profit margins of pharmaceutical companies (Gardasil) or to line the pockets of vaccine developers (Rotavirus). Dr. Paul Offit is one of the Rotavirus vaccine developers, and is, IMO, one of the most evil humans on the face of this planet; he can stand alongside Dr. Bill Frist.

Another vaccine issue that needs a great deal more study is that of adjuvants, the substances that carry the antigen through the bloodstream to the target site in the body. Some of them may be very dangerous to our health. One example is squalene, which is known by many names, and which is suspected as the culprit that caused Gulf War Syndrome. Squalene is an oil that so closely mimics cholesterol that it confuses the body, and in genetically susceptible subjects causes the body to mount an immune response that destroys the subject's own immune system. Read "Vaccine A" by Gary Matsumoto for detailed information on this one. It describes the hasty development and use of an anthrax vaccine on our military personnel during the first Gulf War. (An aside...did you know that our military are the only group who can be legally experimented on - medically - without their knowledge or permission?)

Vaccine issues are a passion of mine. Perhaps you can tell....

Jamie,

if that is what the group wants then no more Kumbaya.

This is what I have been trying to say. I was talking to Wino this morning. about one statement she made. She took it well and I thanked her.

Thanks for highlighting exactly what I am trying to do.

now time for work and other places of interest. Hopefully more here sometime.

I just heard Savage's comments regarding autism, and he said something to the effect of "you'll get nowhere in life..."

It's funny. Why try to get somewhere in life? You're already there.

Just a thought.

And Champ I appreciate your candor.

Just highlights what happens here. However, does there need to be the demonization of anyone because of a "Cause" ?

Initially is was because we were not connected to Hillary Clinton. Now it is because of associations?

I would like to highlight how juvenial that is. How prejucial that is.

Just pointing that out Champ. I hope we can forge another kind of atmospere here. Its long time coming back to Craig's Place.

Now really gone for a while. Good Luck for the week!

champ...

Michael Savage was on Larry King Live last night. He maintains that his comments were directed at those who are misdiagnosed. I haven't listened to his full comments, so I can't say what I believe he meant. But...until I know for sure, in full and in context...I'll cut him some slack. I've been getting emails ever since he opened his mouth that are a call to action to try to destroy him. I don't believe in doing that unless I know for sure that the words were spoken with the intent to do harm.

One thing I can guarantee is that any parent of an autistic child would, if they could, order their child to be 'normal'. It can't be done.

Thom Hartmann has a good show today. It's all about monetary policy, the practice of usury, tax rates on money made by working vs. tax rates on money made by using money. It even went off into Abraham Lincoln, greenback dollars (no interest), conspiracy "Did bankers kill Lincoln", and religious law regarding charging interest on loans and the forgiveness of debts.

Check out

http://www.monetary.org, the legislation being proposed and the book being pitched "The Lost Art of Money"

Umm, but I know of one child who could use some better parenting instead of letting everything slide because of his condition. As the child has gotten older, the police have started to get involved...it's just a matter of time before something big happens. So far, he hasn't been removed from the home. That sort of thing needs to be addressed, too.

I agree; Mother Nature will always balance herself out, even if it means downsizing the population.

Here's a rundown on the history of money policy and the conspiracy theories connected with banking, money, Lincoln and Kennedy

http://www.heritech.com/pridger/lincoln/lin-ken.htm

I guess have heard that the New York "Traitor" Times ask McCain to "FIX" his Op-Ed piece so that it fits the motto of the paper. All the "treason" that's fit to print.

Posted by: VJ Machiavelli | July 22, 2008 7:24 AM

That's pretty rich coming from a RePUG party that has adopted a scorched earth policy, refused to implement true environmental protections, has attacked people's basic and fundamental human rights, lied to get us into a ridiculous war, mostly fought by young people of little means hoping to be able to get an education after their tour is over (and hopefully survives), a party that has held secretive meetings with energy bigwigs in order to enhance their bloated profits and protect them from litigation or even having to testify under oath, a party that has used dirty tricks to attack those who don't agree with them (even outing a career CIA agent), a party that smeared the military record of at least two decorated soldiers, a party that continues to give more to the rich off the backs of the less fortunate, a party that had more than one MONTH CONCLUSIVE WARNING THAT MAJOR TERRORIST ATTACKS WERE IMMINENT IN THE USA BUT DID NOTHING, and a President who has did all he can, along with his party, to try to create a religious theocracy in place of a secular democracy in our land.

"Machiavelli"? I think a better nickname is in order. If you must use an Italian, i recommend Musssolini. It fits!

P.S. The Media are as liberal as the conservative organizations that OWN them.

EuroTom - After reading The Republican Noise Machine several years ago, I would agree that conservative entities hold the reigns. However, it seems like the teeter-totter has gone the other way this season...and it makes me wonder why?

"I agree; Mother Nature will always balance herself out, even if it means downsizing the population."

She may need to hustle her bustle. We are already almost 4 billion over optimum resource supplies to give everyone something resembling a "middle class lifestyle" (this is where India and China are aiming) and another 2 billion humans expected within 40 years.

Unfortunately the almost 7 billion people on the earth want to eat, drink, poop, and make more babies. They are very, very busy doing all of those things.

Bad news in my home state. It seems that Al Franken is faltering in his bid to oust Norm Coleman from the U.S. Senate apparently brought on by unpaid tax issues and some of his earlier writings and a joke about rape. Franken has been a well known satirist for years. He is also well known for his time on Saturday Night Live.

In an article on Time.com it says: "n Minnesota, former SNL comic Al Franken hit trouble in his Senate race because of the dark legacy of his past: not drug use or infidelity but a joke he made in 1995 about 60 Minutes' Andy Rooney being a rapist. His opponent, Norm Coleman, and Coleman's surrogates jumped on the joke, accusing Franken of thinking rape is funny.
Of course, Franken's joke was never about rape being funny but about the absurdity of imagining a beloved TV curmudgeon as a rapist."...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1823957,00.html

Of course the Minnesota DFL activists soundly nominated him in spite of these controversies. The result has been Coleman currently leads Franken by 7 percentage points in a race that really should be a cake walk for the Dems come November.

The last thing we need is Norm Coleman (turncoat former Democrat) to return to the U.S. Senate. Al has apologised about mistakes from the past. I hope Minnesotans continue to listen to his ideas for making live easier for people in the state and in our country.

Blue I can't analyze it very well, but just my gut feeling is that reporters got excited by a new kind of politics and were climbing over each other to get the news out first! They problem saw (and see) a political "paradigm shift" happening right before their eyes and the excitement of what it means clouded some reporting. My view is that Hillary was seen as an obstacle of the "paradigm shift" and tied to her husband's administration and its controversies. I never felt this was fair, but I am sure many journalists and commentators simply rolled their eyes and said "not again"! Plus I don't think they knew how to treat a spouse of an Ex-President vying to be President. It's all new turf and I think they had a hard time accepting it as correct or even real.

As for the Repugs... it's about time the MSM take them on. I remember I book from the early 1989 "On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency".

From the Publisher's Weekly text: "Based on some 175 interviews with top administration officials, senior journalists and news executives, plus analyses of newspaper articles and television stories, Hertsgaard ( Nuclear Inc. ) argues that the Reagan White House not only tamed the media but transformed it into "a willing mouthpiece of the government" in its coverage of issues ranging from economic policy to arms control. In addition to providing examples of the media's "accommodating passivity" on major issues, he contends that the Reagan propaganda apparatus (or "Deaver & Co.," as he also calls it, referring to the president's former image wizard) chose the First Lady's pet project (i.e., the dangers of drugs) for her to draw attention away from her lavish lifestyle, which the public was beginning to notice and resent. Hertsgaard also claims that evidence suggests a 1980 deal with Iran to delay the hostage release until inauguration day, and that this alleged deal was the genesis of the Iran-contra affair. But these are mere sidelights in this charge-packed attack on the media's "subservience to state authority" and the "witless malevolence" of recent presidential image-making. Hertsgaard's most controversial indictment is that the nation's press lords deliberately reined in their troops. "....

I think the end of the "fairness doctrine" has also negatively affected our ability to have full and fair representation of opposing viewpoints.

Franken has a history of being something of a chauvenist as well as one of the less friendly, prickly types (see ABC writeup about his Playboy article). The arch feminists take him too seriously and others don't take the habits seriously enough. Given a choice between him and Coleman, I would vote for Franken, but I would be please about it. The Democrats could have gotten a better candidate.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/Story?id=4921109

sorry that last post was too long... I go overly enthusiastic ! :-)

About media, I recommend you visit FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) http://www.fair.org. Don't miss their weekly radio program COUNTERSPIN

"CounterSpin provides a critical examination of the major stories every week, and exposes what the mainstream media might have missed in their own coverage. Combining lively discussion and a thoughtful media critique, CounterSpin is unlike any other show on the dial. "

Here are a list of stations where you can listen to CounterSpin: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=115

"What the world needs now... is Media literacy, it's the only thing that can stop total idiocy"....

Jamie, I suspect you meant to say you "wouldn't be happy about it." I think you are on to something and it is possible that comedians do not make the best serious candidates. Nonetheless electing Norm would be such a kick in the pants for the state. If it looks like Al is not up to the job, the DFL should replace him with someone else. The GOP should not hold that seat!

1. Gallup shows a 3 pt. O lead today
2. Rasmussen shows a tie..ugh
3. A couple of years ago I listened to Michael Savage for a few days. Teenagers had been talking about him in heroic terms. He was disgusting. He is trying to weasel out of his comments this week. Not sure if I spelled "weasel" correctly.
4. Ignore the Knotheads..a. don't respond to knotheads, b. stop reading posts responding to knotheads. This will save you much time as you avoid
the soap opera we so often see here.

I have sent Al Franken several small contributions.

He sends very entertainig thank yous and messages.

In the end, I would bet on Franken if the state goes heavily for the Democratic Presidential nominee.

In line with our discussion earlier on Alzheimers, she has had advanced dementia for several years.

Hmmm I just read that Bea Arthur who played Dorothy on The Golden Girls was actually a year older than Estelle Getty (who played Dorothy's mother Sophia in the show) !!

Wow that means Bea Arthur is 85 !! WoW, I remember her from Maude and also the film version of MAME (the musical). Oh and it says Estelle was suffering from advanced "dementia". It's really sad !!!

Wasn't Estelle dealing with Alzheimer's for a while?

BTW, Maude was one of the most underrated shows ever...

Max,

I think the NYT made a mistake not allowing the McCain editorial, which by nature is an opinion piece. Since it is an opinion piece, I think the editorial board was within their rights to demand that the piece be something more than a jingoistic rant and ask for some sort of specificity for the free use of their widely read space.

Vanity Fair makes fun of the New Yorker's cover
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/07/new-yorker-cover.html

ET

CQ has now rated Coleman as the leader and probable winner of Minnesota.

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000002921763

julie

jingoistic rant

That is your opinion and the NYT wanted McCain to offer a time line, which McCain has stated repeatedly was up to the generals and the government of Iraq. And Obama's prescriptions offered? From the dude who was completely wrong? LOL

So a year after the NYT wrote a long op ed piece that Iraq was LOST and we should get out, it now give space to pretender Obama (who was also clearly wrong) and disses the very candidate who advocated the surge that has brought vicotry in Iraq within sight. Bravo. The NYT should be apologizing for being so wrong and hailing a candidate they should honor. Instead Maliki who they have bashed fro being too Bush, they now twist into approaving of Obama...LOL

Maliki would be dead had Obama gotten his way and Iraq a full blown civil war. Is anyone here willing to be honest? Was Obama completely wrong? Was Patraeus right? If you can't find it in yourselves to answer correctly then forget discourse. This blog just becomes religious worship and socializing.

Obama said our pulling out long ago would have brought peace to Iraq. What crap. Even now he says only politics are required while forgetting the dangerous security situation and only through security was any political progress made, a fact he utterly denied was possible just several months ago.

That is fact no matter how you all want to spin it. Thousands of dead Americans would have be lost in vain while Iraq was devolving into complete violence had the Democrats like Pelosi and Obama had their way. One year after the surge, real progress has suddenly turned Obama into an expert? He was wrong and doesn't have the courage to admit it. He still wants to say his strategy is right no matter how wrong it was. If that is leadership I can't imagine was bad leadership is.

new motto for our happy camp here:

wag more, bark less

"Even if you are only mildly interested in his rhetoric you must watch the videos to see him melt under questioning. He looks and sounds so silly. Uh uh uh uh .... all presentation no product.

"Let me be absolutely clear. Israel is a strong friend of Israel's. It will be a strong friend of Israel's under a McCain government uh uh ...administration. It will be a strong friend of Israel under an Obama administration (Video part III and notice how hostile he is when that video kicks off)"

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/video-obama-rec.html

patd,

Good suggestion, if it works here, I'll try to teach it to my dog. Unfortunately, like many of our Trail Mix friends, he's been around a long time and he's kind of set in his ways.

actually, edvb, i lifted "wag more, bark less" from a box of dog treats. tho't it would befit this blog of politcal wags better than all that kumba stuff. course some of us may have more to wag with than others. life can be sooo unfair.

Did The DNC Fund Anti-Gay Propaganda?
By: Blue Texan Tuesday July 22, 2008 10:30 am 21

The DNC's Leah Daughtry, who mocked modern medicine in the Times, seems to be behind a group called Faith In Action, which funded this odious voter’s guide for the Alabama Democratic Party.

The Guide included a plan to "require public schools to offer Bible literacy as part of their curriculum," as well as to "defeat any efforts to redefine marriage or provide the benefits of marriage to a same-sex union"...

Her response?

"The wonderful thing about the Democratic Party is that we have room for all kinds of opinions."

When the Democratic Party calls bigotry an “opinion” we’ve got a problem.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/22/did-the-dnc-fund-anti-gay-propaganda/

Coreen,

Diminishing work hours.

Is it time to make the standard work week four eight-hour days?

As productivity has risen, we have consistently shortened the work week. Back in the early portion of the last century, six twelve-hour days was standard. By the late 50s, we finally, pretty much, made it down to a forty hour week. Seems like it might be time for another step down.

It isn't the barking on this blog that is bothersome, it is the lifting of the leg for the territorial marking.

and the sniffing at the as--oles, bowmanc.

Regarding working hours, managers where I work routinely put in 50+ hours a week, and are on call during their off hours. Press operators work 12 hour continental shifts, 3 days on four days off. Everybody works overtime. And the temps (mostly Hispanic) work as much as possible knowing that if things get slow they won't be called in. Some have been temp workers for several years.

It isn't an ideal work situation, but that is the reality. Managers have been told that there will be no consideration of changing work hours (like a four day week to save on commuting), coverage stays the same because we are a 24/7 operation. The unspoken message is, if you don't like it Burger King is hiring.

Jack, et (many) al.,

Re General Powell.

Weapons of mass destruction are chemical, biological, and radiological. It was the horrors of trench warfare during the First War that resulted in chemical weapons being outlawed by the international community.

Powell had his concerns about what he was being given for presentation at the U.N.. He did what he thought appropriate. He went to the head of the CIA, the responsible individual, and received assurances that the analysis was accurate. Based on those assurances, he made his presentation.

I worked for Powell in the early 80s. I knew him both professionally and socially. I consider him to be a totally honorable man, a very competent general officer, and a public servant in the best traditions of government service.

I don't expect what I have said to change anyone else's take on him. At the same time, understand that I think he's being berated unfairly, and that I have his back.

KGC - now that's the scariest thing I've heard of in many many years. I wonder what some of her other beliefs are?

Boop

Well there's this:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/21/the-dnc-and-the-voodoo-chicken-cure-for-cancer/

ps Boop
Are you still getting hazy skies. I know most of the fires are supposed to be contained but today looks yucky.

Sheila.... maybe you'll read this and maybe you won't.....
Lardass got the meaning of my post...... but if you want to choose to see it as berating you.... you're entitled to your opinions.....

Jamie.... my feelings aren't bruised..... just getting tired of all the bickering and fighting.... I come here to be entertained.... shoot the breeze with some folks I consider friends..... and to learn a thing or two.... hopefully, I in turn entertain and make some think along the way......

I've stopped reading all the back and forth crapfests..... even when you're involved..... don't have or want to make the time for it any longer.....

"I think the end of the "fairness doctrine" has also negatively affected our ability to have full and fair representation of opposing viewpoints."

EuroTom..... truer words could not have been written.... IMO....

Renee, you were negative and I read every word of yours correctly. I have known you long enough to get it.

I know you won't, but why don't you reread that benign post I was making to Wino. The one that made you interjected yourself?

I'm trying to really respect you, why don't you do me the same and next time afford me the same. I can usually judge correctly when someone I know respects me.

If you read the threads throughly, when you've finished it kinda kills the mood for posting. I went back to work on Monday after being off for 2 weeks. I got woke up twice by phonecalls during my sleep time yesterday. A friend of mine is applying for a job with a hospital and she said she put me down as a reference. The hospital called me about 2 hours later to ask me questions about her. Work sucked last night and then I got home and got an e-mail from a friend of mine who told me her Mom had just died from cancer.

Boop

" Was it really not testy a year ago with all the same people?"

The same people and a lot of others. Compared to most political sites, it was practically a lovefest. There were disputes, but nothing like the anger and personal attacks that have taken place here in the last six months.

Craig had two sites that I know of before this one, but technical issues interrupted those places as we changed from a fairly private coffee clatch to a heavily trafficed poltical site.

Matthews is going to gush again today. I can tell from the first sentence. He's like a pre teen with a crush on an "older man" of 14.

Slight modification on blog motto"

More Purr Fewer Claws

I would suggest you don't judge everyone based on the vocal minority, Max. There are more eyes than mouths on this board.

KGC - well, if she's Dean's chief of staff, I would think she has some identification with what are considered basic dem party core beliefs. I wonder if she's a Christian Scientist. Then again maybe she's not Dean's cos.

She's sure stirring something up. Teaching Bible Literacy in public schools......medicine can't cure cancer......Wonder how she's treated and if people get into it with her. She is certainly entitled to her own thoughts and religious beliefs, but to try to make them part of a party platform is less than acceptable to most of that party, I would think.

Come to think of it, independents have no platform, do we? There is an American Independent Party, right? I'm not part of it, though. I'm non-aligned.

Well, the sun is shining - I can tell that because there are shadows. However the sky has no color - your basic dirty white. It's 76 in my living room with my front door open. There doesn't seem to be much wond for a change. I just know we're gonna get clobbered!

More Purr Fewer Claws" Jamie

Jamie,
I liked your description.

But you also have to take into account there was no election going on then. At least not this election.

Maybe Phil Gramm was right. lol.

It's funny how some are nostalgic for the good ol' days of a goddamn blog.

Max

I'll give some of your questions a go.

In the beginning I thought the invasion of Iraq was one of the most horrendously stupid acts ever perpetrated by the leader of a nation.

Since then, I have watched as Shrub and his cohorts have totally botched a fouled up policy while dragging the country's reputation for the mud and then tracking the mud all over the Constitution.

As to the surge. Not the way it was done. It may have been the only option we had left after the complete crapfest Georgie splurted on the Middle East. It has worked because the three tribal factions have gotten sick unto death of the slaughter of innocents, are dividing into their territories and are trying to work together well enough to boot out the invader.

Do we need to get out as rapidly as possible. Yes. We can draw back to the more moderate areas and try to let the parties involved divvy up the country.

In the beginning we could have gone into Afghanistan with the world's backing. Now we may not even be able to do that without having the same consequences that helped bring down the Soviet Union. Need to think about this one because nukes or the possibility of same are involved in Iran, Pakistan, and India.

Oh God! Matthews just referred to Obama with a the pfrase "A Touch of Harry In The Night".

If anyone needs an explanation of that one, I'll tell you, but just take my word that it is practically worshipful.

Viv,
Regret I missed you yesterday, but glad to see you were back. That's strange about your posts being sent to Craig, I've only seen that when you have more than 3 sites linked on the same post. That's the maximum links per each post.

Sorry to hear things have been rough for you. Hope you're feeling better. When a lot of things flare up at the same time, it's usually inflammation. Did you call your doctor?

Hope to see you soon.

EdVB and Jamie - well, it's really sad to hear the comparisons between last year's blogs and this one. If everybody agrees, maybe it can turn around.

I absolutely agree about having the poster's name at the top of the post.

I just got an email from Hillary, and no, it wasn't asking for money. It's about a new brain storm the Bushies have come up with : to re-define abortion to include "some forms" of birth control. That's something that affects men as well as women.

Anyway, there is a petition to sign to the HHS secretary, and I of course did sign. If you want to sign but don't get the email, I'll forward it to you if you can explain how ti do it - HA!

They are just amazing.

Has anyone seen the recent photos of Helen Mirren in a bikini? While she may not be a Sophia or Raquel, I wouldn't mind being some cougar bait...lol

"It's funny how some are nostalgic for the good ol' days of a goddamn blog"

LOL
Champ
It is human nature. Any group worth being part of grows and changes. Some people are uncomfortable with that change and yearn for the good old days. even if that was only last week..

Boop
If there was a time of peace and love on this blog it was before last August when I first lurked on Craigs blog. from what I see there is an expansion of view points with many more people of a centrist view. We need a few more people with a republican view IMO so I can understand where they are coming from.

Jack

Bear

Helen Mirren has been in prowling shape for about 40 years now. She's holding up very, very well. :) Her costumes and dress have gotten fairly staid of late. Now when she was about 30

http://www.utc.fr/~macret/cine/realisateurs/boorman/photos/excalibur5.jpg

As much as I respect your argumentative proficiencies (although in my opinion your tone does get a little grating, but then maybe mine does as well), Max, I think you're dead wrong regarding Iraq. There is nothing to lose there because there was never anything to win. We are just re-colonizing the middle east for the sake of Israel. Saddam committed genocide at American administration's behest, ruled with an iron fist that our government clad, and sad to say kept a rein on a disparate people that probably shouldn't be saluting the same banner anyway. The American government used the PKK for their own agenda and them sold them out to Turkey as soon as it was in their best interest. It's shameful, in my opinion. If it isn't obvious, I support partition and getting the hell out STAT.

"As to the surge. Not the way it was done. It may have been the only option we had left after the complete crapfest Georgie splurted on the Middle East. It has worked because the three tribal factions have gotten sick unto death of the slaughter of innocents, are dividing into their territories and are trying to work together well enough to boot out the invader."

Jamie

I think it is time to give a little credit to Gates, if Rumsfeld was still in charge the surge would have been the failure that many of us feared.
Gates changed the approach, to nationalist groups and turned them into allies fighting against a worse invader. We quit going in and disarming them and being part of the problem. This let us start concentrating on Bagdad with the same message. "Work with us and we will fight our common enemies together."
It has worked so far and it is presenting Obama with a problem.

Jack

-not that that is going to happen. No matter who says what, we will be there for a long time. Might as well add Iraq to the union. They are getting plenty of our tax dollars anyway.

Matthews is on full barfomatic today. First Henry V and now Harry Truman ... Swoon

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

"they care about getting out"

with a win

Jack

John McCain has denounced Barack Obama as being “completely wrong” on Iraq, but it was McCain who advocated what turned out to be the fundamental strategic blunder in the post-9/11 conflicts, the hasty – and premature – pivot from Afghanistan to Iraq.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/072208.html

"They think George Bush is an Idiot"

There is why they want out, as long as Bush is in charge the chance of winning is slim.
Polls show that a majority of Americans want to leave a winner. If McCain can make that case then Iraq works for him and against Obama.
If the election was only about Iraq and the war then McCain has the advantage. However it is going to be about the economy and there McCain loses.

Jack

Jamie,

She was in Excalibur?!?

there in the first place

(fingers faster than brain)

Bear,

She was Morgan Le Fay. The lady was known for her lack of clothes in several films in the 80s

jamie, like when Helen was in "Tthe Cook, The Thief, His wife and Her Lover"? Did I ge the title right? ASide from the rotting meat I was smitten.

Gotta go - maybe later.

Chloe,

Thanks for the link. I was just wondering how McCain could claim credit for the surge when he fully backed the administrations flawed plans from the start.

Every General who advocated invading with a force at least double in size was forced out. Colin Powell was made to ignore his own doctrine that worked so well during Desert Storm.

I am waiting for a reporter to ask McCain why it took thousands of deaths, billions of dollars wasted to adopt a strategy, the surge, when those who knew what they were doing were saying more than the expanded number was needed from day 1?

Jamie,

Any of her films sCinemax worthy?

Yeah, I'm going to have to take a long hot bath and open up my veins (Godfather reference, sorry)...

Win what, Jack?

McCain is playing a shell game and that will be pointed out by Obama during the debates. If things are going badly in Iraq, we've got to stay. If things are going well, then we've got to stay. But McCain loses in both because all Obama has to do is declare us winners and then say that he's pulling us out. We have the backing of the Iraqi government who's anxious to get on with dividing the oil wealth among themselves. But McCain has to protect our oil interests, so he'll never say that we have to leave. Therefore, he's doomed as a candidate.

"Standing alongside ancient mountaintop ruins with the Amman city skyline his memorable backdrop, Obama declined repeatedly to concede that President Bush's decision to dispatch 30,000 troops to Iraq in 2007 had succeeded. Still, he said, "I believe that the situation in Iraq is more secure than it was a year and a half ago."

The Illinois Democrat predicted at the time the troop increase was begun that it would not succeed." AP

And boy is there going to more that follows.

Yes, Jack, Gates deserves some real credit as does Patraeus and McCain. Also Rice was helpful too at the end as Gates' wing woman. To keep this post down in size, let's just say FIASCO was on target, but Clinton approved regime change and if you think Saddam now rebuilding with the help of Russia, France and China would be a good thing, guess again. What a horrible situation it would be as Iran would have every justification to build nukes. Zinni and others directed the DOD to have an invasion plan and as FIASCO pointed out, our move was not illegal or stupid as many declare but poorly designed for post war strategy. McCain said so and Democrats hailed him. I won't argue the merits of removing Saddam here but Champ, read Piro's interview and the only ones who ultimately decline removing Saddam are people who want no part of the Middle East or any alliance with Israel or even Muslim nations in the area. Yep. Ron Paul and Jefferson my friend was an internationalist, not an isolationist. Those sporting your brand of LIberty knew what it took to defend it actively. Just a fact compadre. Follow the isolationists and bingo. Then the world witnesses an exchange of nukes. Jolly good stuff and far from Internationalist spirit our Founders lauded. And please don't hand me Washington's Farwell Speech. As Joseph Ellis explains, it was not an isolationist rant.

Given the incompetence, even the NYT at one point called for more troops and it wasn't until violence got out of hand that Democrats threw in the towel to bash Bush. Not that he didn't deserve a drubbing.

McCain and others championed a surge and with Gates who also rejected the dubious Baker Report he was part of and that would have failed obviously, Iraq is making the move to success, Obama predicted wrong and deserves only boos as he plays his only cards. Quicker exit than McCain and falsely claiming Afghanistan's problems are caused by Iraq. Actually the lesson learned in Iraq should be now applied to Afghanistan, but the US does not have the responsibility alone. The idea of overwhelming force in Afghanistan won't play out with the Tribal leaders period.

Afghanistan is an international problem and Obama was also deadly wrong about Pakistan. I have provided the links to the facts. The moderates are far worse towards the US and much more firendly to the militants. Screw Richardson's bombastic predictions that Obama seconded. So Obama was completely wrong about Iraq and to pander a win against Hillary, threw in with the I hate Patraeus crowd. Obama was grossly wrong about Pakistan and his mouthing off publically has produced the fallout we see today, whereas Bush and Musharraf tried to keep our strikes quiet. I have no stamch to watch Obama fake center after the attack he engineered on the truer centrists Hillary and Bill. His posturing noiw is exactly the stuff he claim Hillary was unworthy for office for having. Nopw, I will not forget until Obama fesses up and asks for forgiveness for being the liar he apparently was/is.

In Afghanistan, Obama refuses to admit NATO is acting poorly though France and England are stepping up more. How would he know? He has never held a meeting of the sub committee he chaiors on NATO...LOL And obviously Dog, he failed to read the notes of that single meeting of the Foreign Relations committee held to address Obama's failure.

How this gives Obama credibility is a figment of media perception or should I say misperception. And Lord, if we could only apply that Fairness Doctrine to Liberal media, they would have to give equal time to McCain and centrists. Got all of that?

Obama can do very little and he has already arrogantly proclaimed he will not hesitate to over rule our war time generals. How about acting tough to our enemies Obama? He refuses to admit the surge worked while polls show Americans believe the surge worked. Next polls will show Americans don't think Obama is being very honest. So this trip has already weakend him despite the attempt to turn the Democratic hated Maliki into an Obama supporter as he pitches to his own Left WIng, or should I say Right WIng?

The horrible thing is how the media is enabling revisionist declarations by Democrats. They were wrong and after all their Party promoted regime change in the first place. They honestly hate Bush more than that butcher Saddam. They predicted wrong about Iraq and would have left all the US blood in Iraq in vain. What garbage and yes, Gates, McCain and Patraeus deserve real credit though the bias media is loath to give it. What crap.

Score card:

Obama was wrong about the surge and peace in Iraq

Obama was wrong about the effect of the corrupt moderates assuming power in Pakistan

Thus Obama is wrong about the causes of the recent resurgence of the Taliban and AQ

He is also wrong about how he conveys his strange positions on Afghanistan and Iraq

He is wrong about Iran and has been a dead weight to international sanctions. Note the US has dealt directly with Iran and they stilll refuse to negotiate as they speed up their programs.

No matter what one thinks about Bush, Saddam in power now would be bringing the Middle East to a boiling point, where as Bush is actually showing enough resove and new strategy to force Syria to consider their actions, keep Hizb"allah contained, Iraq moving towards peace and Afghanistan far from being lost. With the decline of Musharraf comes problems the Democrats predicted would NOT HAPPEN.

So the score card looks bad for Obama and improving every day for Bush. And Congress? Are they really a 9% approval rating? Wait until the media is forced to pitch it fair to McCain and what I have said repeatedly gets more air time. With such a slant towards the Left, and a bill which would give media MORE RIGHTS (and us not able to photgraph a cop on a highway), the Fairness Doctrine would plunge balance into the freezer. THe Democrats think media is too slanted to the Right...LOL

I'll buy a NYT again when they applaud McCain and let him have his say in the op ed section, right where a year ago the NYT said Iraq was lost and we should give up and go home in defeat.

Yes I lean Left, but I won't lie. The Democrats need to be rescued as they make fools of themselves. What a pathetic sight.

Thanks for the comment Jamie, but on this foreign policy matter, I think we disagree. Obama is so wrong and he hasn't even entered the WH yet. Now who is he going to listien too. Axlerod or Patraeus? Now that's scary with the likes of ZBig, McPeaks and Rice backing him up.

Jamie

You can't be running against the old Rumsfeld doctrine. That was 2006, this is now.

first:
There is undeniable improvement in Iraq.

Second: there has been a drastic scale down of the definition of win.
We have went from ~~~peace, love and democracy~~~
To the "Iraqi army can maintain a modest amount of order".

It is now within the realm of reality to talk about a win

Americans love to be a winner.

Jack

We need to have a pool if Obama wins the White House...

The bet will be what day does Bush pardon himself, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove for every thing they did in power...

http://www.slate.com/id/2195689/?GT1=38001

“Obama Love”

"John McCain’s presidential campaign today released its latest web video entitled “Obama Love.” The video highlights the media’s love affair with Barack Obama ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfogMFL7UJo

McCain’s campaign invites you to “Vote For Your Favorite Love Song For “Obama Love.”

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/22/obama-love/

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

"Win what, Jack?"

Champ

That is the secret
It all depends on what the lovely people will accept as a win
But it is a safe bet that the majority of the American people don't want to be a loser.

Jack

Bear

Can a President pardon himself?

Won't he have to resign and let cheny be President for a day?

Jack

I think Jack has a valid point. The American public is far more nationalistic than you may think. Right now most will say we have to get out, but let us start getting out and anything looks like a clusterfu#k....then the howling will begin.

That has nothing to do with what we ought to do, just with what one hell of a lot of people are about.

Mr Democrat you are so wrong I am surprised that even you don't see it. McCain was laways planning for the surge to work and his wanteing to stay longer than Obama rush to exit will and is backed up by Gates, Fallon, Patraeus. You think Americans are going to risk this hard won victory that Obama declared would not happen. What you see but won'y admit, is that Obama look bad, very bad. Having guessed wrong, he wants to rush out.

He is using an excuse of Afghanistan related to his other bad prediction about Pakistan. He is screwed now at both ends of the Middle East with Israel more than skeptical and ironically, the Sunnis not too pleased either because of Obama absurd stand on Iran.

So spin away. That's all you've got? And you even throw in the Big Oil line when Americans overwhelmingly want the oil to flow. They are even in favor of drilling. Are you completely loonie. Keep i going. It is facinating watching the spin morph into irrationality irrationality.

RR, let us know who business is this time around.

tt

"Obama can do very little and he has already arrogantly proclaimed he will not hesitate to over rule our war time generals"

Well, Yes
He is commander in chief, over ruling generals is part of the job description, Max

Jack

Oh jeez, just get the hell out already. Let them deal with their own problems. We haven't 'won' a war since '45. The "American People" will get over it, as soon as the next season of American Idol starts.

Champ

How long did it take to get over Vietnam?

Jack

Yeah, sad to say again, I agree with MD on that too. My whole "game is rigged theme" yada yada.

Rambo 3?

On an unrelated topic:

If the labeled nutritional information is to be believed, "Barilla Plus" pasta has got to be the healthiest stuff I've ever eaten. No, I'm not on the Barilla payroll.

tiptoe....
I think you meant to say "how" business is this time around.....

I've talked to many of my fellow crafters..... and so far.... the season is in the toilet.... but you never know..... sometimes when the economy is rough, people will do what is called cocooning and spend on little luxuries for their homes...... it's gonna be what it's gonna be..... at least I have the benefit of not paying a mortgage or having to eat with my earnings..... I feel very sorry for those crafters that do, however....

my best friend is a potter who will be in the booth right around the corner from mine..... we've both agreed that no matter what.... we're going to have a good time and at least party with each other....

champ...

Quinoa is much healthier...as are pastas made from several other grains. Look for it in the nutrition section of your market.

Catch you guys later...I'm off to a concert in the park....

The game is rigged!
Nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.

George Carlin you tube
http://www.britanniaradio.co.uk/?q=node/14526

Champ,
Have you seen this one?

Oh, and you're right about "Barilla Plus" pasta.
I swear by it.

Marion Nestle is writing a column for the SF Chron now
last week was the first.

Humanitarian crises
How ironic it is - and how tragic - that we now have a world food crisis over the high cost of calories. People in Egypt, Haiti and Indonesia are rioting because they cannot afford to buy basic foods. Governments everywhere are scrambling to protect their countries' food supplies. Expensive calories create humanitarian crises and political instability, and are a problem for people, governments and the world.

Economists say food prices are rising because demand exceeds supply. In the United States, this hardly makes sense. We have loads of supply. The foods we produce, plus imports, less exports, are enough to feed every man, woman, and child 4,000 calories a day. This is roughly twice the average need. Most other countries - all but the very poorest in Africa and Asia - also have plenty of calories, or did until nature and politics intervened.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/16/FD8811AVK1.DTL&hw=Nestle&sn=001&sc=1000

"When journalists have questions about nutrition and food politics, Marion Nestle is the go-to person. The professor and author has been quoted extensively in just about every major publication because of her ability to get to the heart of the matter.
Marion Nestle: Global food crisis comes back to calories

Marion Nestle, professor in the Department of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University, author of "What to Eat" and "Food Politics," and Chronicle Food columnist. "

"Americans love to be a winner."

The only way they will be able to call it a "WIN" is if we define "WIN" as

Do the right thing, get the hell out of the neighborhood.

Tomorrow (for those who like him...)

Harold Ford Jr:

Wednesday, July 23
"Morning Joe" - GUEST HOST
6:00am EDT/5:00am CDT

and

"Race for the White House"
6:00pm EDT/5:00pm CDT

"Do the right thing, get the hell out of the neighborhood."

Absolutely...and out of Afghanistan as well. But I never underestimate the bloodlust of a lot of the American public. Or the ability of the media, depending on what the agenda is, to influence the public one way or the other.

Wake up Democrats. It is not too late!

KGC

I liked this gem inside the article

"The Department of Agriculture says you can eat five servings of fruits and vegetables a day for less than $1. This is true, as I discovered when I was writing "What to Eat." You can buy a dollar's worth of green beans, pare and chop them, and count out the nine half-cup servings. But this takes work and time, both scarce for many people."

Jack

I think the American people want us out without having more troops killed and won't see that as a loss. the mess in Saigon was a ground-level low spot.

I love the whole wheat and spinach and tomato pasta.
I've heard of Quinoa but don't know what it is or how to cook it.

Jack

I can't believe the Chron is publishing her. Nestle is wonderful and in the nicest way possible quite radical.
I've heard her speak a number of time on panels with others involved in food politics and I think she is the best. Not in the least doctrinaire.

lol... and yeah, I'm sure I have.

Holy Smokes! I'd say Maxtrue has had a hard day. Thats so long, I just got to the Score and gave up!

Good day!

I don't think it's 'bloodlust' Patsi, I think it's fear. You only see the blood if you look real hard for it. Not an uplifting pastime.

"bloodlust" "jingoism" whatever you call it.

There is a tendency on the part of some to assume a superiority of the country to the exclusion of listening to and learning from others.

Pogo
If you are still in Cincinnati --repeat after me --no chili!

“Holy Smokes! I'd say Maxtrue has had a hard day. That’s so long, I just got to the Score and gave up!

Good day!“

Sheila, I agree with this. Do you know that Maxtrue posted 1,238 words in that one post? IMO, if you can’t say something in less than 250 words on a blog maybe it should be better left for a complete thread. BTW, Shelia, your post was only 24 words. Many sites will not allow you to post over 250 - 500 words. I believe Craig actually complained about this at one time. I’m sure most of you know how to easily count your words. My motto is “it’s not the length but the content” (hey, I’ve heard something similar to that before!). Hope I didn’t upset someone. Okay, I’m gone.

Mr.Crawford asked people not to cut and paste posts but to provide links but has no complaint with long original pieces.

"There is a tendency on the part of some to assume a superiority of the country to the exclusion of listening to and learning from others."

There sure is, and that's why I understand what Jack was saying. I just don't trust the populace to support smart, careful policy....especially if the MSM decides its to the benefit of business interests to go one way or another.

I probably have a bad attitude when it comes to a lot of public opinion....I hear jingoism and nationalism even among those who don't like this war. And champ may be right, it may be fear...because I truly believe any terrorist attack on this soil and we'll be back where we were or worse.

I think most of us here remember the time we first thought, OMG....after 9/11....with me it was W's "crusade" comment.

Some cogent points, Max, can't say that I agree with them. It's hardly a ringing endorsement of Bush administration policies when his (by 'his' I mean the Bush Admin) greatest accomplishment is attempting to clean up the mess 'he' created under false pretenses.

I don't know how isolationist I am, either. Laissez moi tranquille, maybe, but in a political sense I feel it may be a moot point.

As for Obama's judgement, I highly doubt he will be making independent decisions on those matters once in office. Don't take that as an endorsement, either. I just find it highly suspect the GOP is fielding such an awful candidate. As I said earlier, I just feel that he (McCain) is being rewarded and being given his little footnote in the history books for rolling over in 2000 like a good boy.

Oh, to the rest of you, if you made it to the 2nd paragraph, you'd realize he abbreviated his thoughts, so be grateful for that.

it's only fair.

There is a tendency on the part of some to assume a superiority of the country to the exclusion of listening to and learning from others.

Posted by: Jamie | July 22, 2008 8:02 PM

huh?

The only complaint with long, original pieces is that almost no one reads them so they have no value except the ego of the person writing.

Max and others can set up a blog. Several of us have them and they are linked on the blogroll on the left. It is easy enough to write a long article and then summarize and link here for reference if anyone has an extended interest in the subject.. If nothing else, you might pick up readers that don't stop by here.

Not everyone wants a blog.
An occcasional long post is not a problem.
Skip it if it bores you. It is not necessary to comment on every post.

Champ,

"There is a tendency on the part of some to assume a superiority of the country to the exclusion of listening to and learning from others.

Posted by: Jamie | July 22, 2008 8:02 PM

huh?"

The My Country Right or Wrong crowd except they never believe we are wrong which we have been often.

" it's time for us to pick it up again and get the job done right"

Spoken like a true redneck. I can see I returned too soon today.

I have a blog. It's a very cool blog. There's nothing on it but a title. You can link to it off of jamie's blog, as she was kind enough to do that linking thing......

It'll make you laugh, it'll make you cry......It's like New York is a ship.....and the water's on fire.....
---Tom Waits

I feel sorry for them folks what gets shoot thruda haid.....that's gotta hurt.......

Leave Max alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Nick,
If you're around, hope to see you here soon.
Miss you and hope you're well.

"He is commander in chief, over ruling generals is part of the job description,"

Well, if he wants to substitute his reasoned military judgment for theirs, so be it; constitutionally he has that prerogative.

Does that make it a good idea?

Women are the excuse to stay in Afghanistan
What about the women in Iraq

'National crisis' for Iraqi women
The situation for women in Iraq has become a "national crisis" since the US-led invasion in 2003, a report by an international women's group has warned.
Women for Women International said they had had relative autonomy and security, but now faced violence, controversial leadership and poor infrastructure.

Almost two-thirds of the 1,500 women questioned for the national survey said violence against them had increased.

The report was issued ahead of International Women's Day on Saturday.

'Focus lost'

According to Women for Women's 2008 Iraq Report, shortly before the US-led invasion, "women's rights and gender equity were mentioned as symbolic issues for Iraq's new national agenda".

"However, as the overall situation in Iraq began to deteriorate after the invasion, the focus on women was lost in the problems and violence facing the country as a whole," it said.
Last Updated: Thursday, 6 March 2008, 17:32 GMT
BBC

" We've seen what happens when Afghanistan is allowed to slide into a failed state status"

Tell it to the Soviets. We should NEVER have actually invaded and attempted to set up an American-controlled state in Afghanistan. Let's face it, the Muslim tradition is always going to be abusive to women. If that's what you care about (and I know it's not) then we better invade the whole damn region, starting with Pakistan. Plus Africa.

lol 2.0

And it looks like I'm gonna be homeless! Hot damn!

When one is addressing a blithering idiot that is proper

" I actually thought you had a concept of what's going on over there. My mistake, never mind. "

And once more the insult replace reasoned discourse. Perhaps you should read the bit posted by anonymous above. It is an example of what I meant.

Could it be that you are the one without familiarity of women's issues, the work being done by world organizations, or the history of events.

You seem to be one big knee jerk headline reader without making any attempt to truly understand the issues, forces, events, and consequences of actions.

" I'm frankly stunned that you would back up such stupidity. "

I love it when Neocons despise questioning American aggression.

"some weird borg like melding "

Sounds funny, coming from someone who has assembled a bevy of enablers to watch his back.

I can't keep myself from answering this dope-addled fool. So as I said, I made a mistake logging back on today.

Yeah, but....

Jamie, women fair better now in Afghanistan. The reasons for prolbems in Iraq have to do with more freedom for the religious to impose, not on the proxity of US forces. All newly created democracies must evolve. Liberty is more than a ballot. The women in Iran suffer. Some smal;l progress is being made in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. It is a long struggle and the outcome affects us all, even Champ (depending on his age). The idea to let women suffer the fundie mentality of Islam sickens me. Too bad we won't see Hillary stare down Ahmadinejad.

And for comparisons ladies and gentlemen. JFK said we must sacrifice to defend freedom and liberty. Ask not what your country can do for you. Obama used our economic problems here as to why we must bolt Iraq even given the dangers it may move backwards. Ask what your country can do for you and damn the rest. Good show Obama. As I said, under Bush our reputation. Under Obama our resolve.

BYC, Pull out the spray !!

Max is so True !!!
Good to see more along the ping pong lines ......

Everytime I try to warm up to a BHO as President he opens his mouth and talks, alks alks.... Can he just admit he got it wrong? Come on.... But that would hit the Christ like image he is trying to build.

McCain Romeny 08

BHO does not realize the bigger Man stand his ground but will CHANGE course and be honest not only with others but with himself.

The ONLY reason we have possibility now is the Surge. Big Stick still brings Peace

I meant curbing Iran....

"JFK said we must sacrifice to defend freedom and liberty. Ask not what your country can do for you."

And he started us on the way to the moon, sent other countries the peace corps not the army, and asked people to sacrifice to improve the welfare of others in our country.

He nearly triggered WW3, gave nukes to Turkey, got us really involved in Viet Nam and boy Jamie, I could go on. Your JFK spin is hilarious. Yes he played both sides of the coin, but I suggest you go to Avalon at Yale on line and read the Cuban missile crisis documents. The race to the moon was cover for our military designs. Don't kid yourself.

As I said, I could go on which is why Obama ain't JFK.

Hard News: WOMEN'S DAY-IRAQ: Surviving Somehow Behind a Concrete ...Mar 6, 2008 ... In early 2007 Iraq's Ministry of Education found that more than 70 percent of girls and young women no longer attend school or college

BAGHDAD, IRAQ (CNN) -- Authorities in northern Iraq have arrested four people in connection with the "honor killing" last month of a Kurdish teen -- a startling, morbid pummeling caught on a mobile phone video camera and broadcast around the world.

The case highlights the tragedy and brutality of honor killings -- where family members kill relatives, almost always female, because they feel the relatives' actions have shamed the family.

In this case, Dua Khalil, a 17-year-old Kurdish girl whose religion is Yazidi, was dragged into a crowd in a headlock with police looking on and kicked, beaten and stoned to death last month. (Watch the attack, and what authorities are doing about it )

We must stay in Iraq for the women and girls.

"Well, if he wants to substitute his reasoned military judgment for theirs, so be it; constitutionally he has that prerogative.

Does that make it a good idea?"

Flatus

It is always better for a president to order policy. IMO a wise president will take into account sage advice from the many experts he surrounds himself with. But he should never turn over the responsibility to some one else. General Petraus is most likely a genius in his field but He is an implimentor of policy, not the creator. He should not be put in that position IMO. One thing I dislike about Bush is the way he hides behind Petraus.

Jack

kc, I am - no chili. lol

Max

He isn't St. John. Cold war actions were very hot then. I'm talking about goals and aspirations. No head of state is all good or all bad. But the US then truly did see itself as the "good guys".

I doubt he would have gotten as deep into Viet Nam as JOhnson later did, but there is no way of knowing. There was a great deal left over of Eisenhower policy in aid of the Colonial French in Asia. When the French decamped we could have as well.

If I were you, I would accept the support and not be so concerned about points of divergence that beat up on YOUR candidate. If we agree on a goal we can then evaluate civily why one strategy is right and another wrong. Your goal is right, but to get there the strategy must be right. It is up to you to show how YOUR candidate has the right idea. I pointed out where I think he is wrong. If you were so concerned about reaching OUR goal, then you have an obligation not to simply follow but evalaute FOR YOURSELF the intelligence of YOUR candidates thinking.
.

I've been too busy lately to check in and also tired of the same old arguments.It really doesn't matter what we want or who we want to get elected.The media and those with the money and power will determine who becomes our next president.The people have no say anymore.For instance, The people voted for Gore in 2000 but had it taken away by the supreme court.,and shenanigans that went on in Florida.And The people voted for Kerry,but was taken away by shenanigans in Ohio.And this year the people wanted Hillary as was shown by the amount of votes she got,but the party wanted Obama.But I think in the end we will end up with McCain because the powerful ones want him.

So I for one will no longer waste my time even caring.
Government by the people for the people no longer exists.

Ruth

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2008/03/09/afghanistan-violence-against-women-almost-doubles.html

"we still are the good guys"

BS Max. Complete BS. We haven't been the good guys for a while now.

"NATO, international sanctions and even help from Russia and China who sit peacekeeping out is required. Obama could have shown how he leads, Instead he simply attacks Bush and promises more talking. We need a friggin nail driver and that my friends was Hillary. Democrats are idiots. Obama should have been VP while he learned. Instead we have a mess brewing and all the wrong Democratic signals based on freaky partisan pay back."

Max, That was one of your best paragraphs. Painfully accurate and, I'm afraid, prescient.

"The media and those with the money and power will determine who becomes our next president.The people have no say anymore."

Ruth -- I couldn't agree more. It's over.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-tuesday.html#comment-118979

Patsi, exactly. The lot of women in Afghanistan is neither the reason we went there nor the goal of our presence there. Just another shot at jamie. As long as Afghanistan is primarily Muslim, women will be primarily subservient - not pretty, and thankfully not like what the Taliban required, and certainly not what we would accept here, but there it is, and it's not ours to change, and certainly not with the addition of 2 combat batallions there. Will victory be the overthrow of Islam in Afghanistan, or will it be the transformation of Islam into a late 20th century American model? Neither, I'd wager. Sympathy for the plight of Islamic women and the goal of equality - forget equality, just modern humane treatment would do - is not what we should expect or will achieve there. Any taunts to the contrary are just so much arrogant US BS and reflect nothing more than ignorance of the alliances of Afghanistan and its democratically elected leader. The only goals in Afghanistan that likely will be tolerated by the Afghan government are a search of the Afghani-Pakistani border for OBL and enough American presence to protect our own troops - the Afghani administraton under Karzai is not antagonistic to the Taliban, is not going to reverse its ties with Pakistan, and forced to choose between a permanent US presence and a strengthended Taliban, it is impossible to say which it would choose. Do I like it? No. Do I endorse it? No. Do I endorse US military force to overthrow that? Hell no.

"Ruth -- I couldn't agree more. It's over."

Ruth, I was concerned when I didn't see you writing for the past few weeks. I'm glad you're okay. And, I'm afraid I agree with your sentiments, too.

""Let's face it, the Muslim tradition is always going to be abusive to women"

I admit, Jamie -- that was knee jerk on my part. But I still believe the basic premise. Likewise many other religions....:)

Patsi, forget it. Facts be damned. Bottom line - it ain't our fight.

Flatus
I'm fine.Just so much to do this time of year.with putting up veggies and cutting grass and taking hubby back and forth to dialysis,i spend my free time sitting in my garden or playing mahjong.If I could free myself from this computer maybe I could do some more painting.I do check in and try to read the posts and by the time I read them all everyone is gone and I'm ready for bed.But I will stop in from time to time.Being I don't watch much MSM anymore I come here to find out what is happening.I can't withdraw altogether.

Ruth

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/sen_john_edwards_caught_with_mistress_and_love_child_in_la_hotel/celebrity/65193

"Bottom line - it ain't our fight. "

Pogo -- truer word wuz never spoke!

Why thank'yma'am.

"Because Afghanistan has proved it's a threat to us"

Well, now I know you haven't ever read a word of history. AND that you fit right in with the right wing cabal. Oh, yeah, that Middle Ages country is a huge threat. Much more than Pakistan, with its nukes. Jeezus, by a clue. We really f-ed up when we went in there and tried to impose our so-called values.

"less gin perhaps. "

OK
And we can afford to let Iraq become a failed state?

Jack

"we can't afford to let Afghanistan become a failed state again."

Sweet Jeezus. The Freeper mantra.

It's ok for Iraq to fail
Got hang with O's narrative

BTW

How is the best way to proceed in Afghanistan. Our current troop commitment isn't working. Why should more troops make a difference?

Jack

Here's the truth -- it's ALL failed. And we have to figure out how to fix it. Good luck.

patsi, BINGO. GTF out is the only US "win." Failed states? BS. States that don't look like what we want them to - yep. Too f-ing bad. Not our states, not our goals.

"bong hits for Obama"

Maybe a bumper sticker?

Can't afford to let Afghanistan become a failed state again.Whats the definition of a failed state please?Its just like whats the definition of winning in Iraq?The jokes on us........

How is the conversation with the wall coming along?

ROFL, Jamie...as well as usual. Might be time to go to bed.

Pogo

I have to disagree.

Interests in that area we need to protect
A whole lot in the Persian gulf less so in Afghanistan.

Our only real interest in Afghanistan is not to have a base set up for terrorist to operate out of. Instead we have interjected ourselve in the civil war. What do we care about the Taliban except when they provide shelter to terrorist? Make that clear to them and get out of the middle of the civil war. Then make the same thing clear to the Pakistani security forces, that they are not immune to our wrath.

Jack

Our initial error -- and it was one of Biblical proportions -- was that the answer to 9/11 was in intelligence not invasion. I'm not saying we shouldn't have tried to take out terror outposts....but we absolutely did NOT turn our attention to the intelligence community. And I speak as someone whose ex was in military intelligence. The US did not pay attention to Arab linguists or infiltration. We stayed asleep at the wheel.

jack, in a perfect world our interests and Afghanistan's would be the same, but it's not a perfect world, Afghanistan is aligned as closely woth Iran and Pakistan as it is with us, it's not our country, and we can't prevent that without at least the acquiesence of the Afghan government for a much larger US force and more aggressive military action there - and do you really see that as likely? I don't.

The British would have assisted enormously since they have been dealing with Muslim and other terrorism for decades and use police and investigative procedures. We opted for the cowboy approach.

Well, I'd love to stay, but time for bed. Night, all.

"We opted for the cowboy approach."

Yes we did -- W's version of a cowboy....

Sweet Dreams all. Have a good night.

Afghanistan is aligned as closely woth Iran and Pakistan as it is with us,

True and both are in there stirring up trouble but we are not with out influence.
add to the fact that Iran and Pakistan distrust each other more than they distrust us, there are opportunity for other strategies than the straight head down military option.

Jack

Patsi

I think we needed to make an example of the Taliban but it has been 6 years. If the current afghan government can't defend itself then there is no way we can.

Jack

Thanks everybody for some serious conversation

Good night

Jack

Just thought I might throw in a different perspective.

I agree with all of you somewhat and disagree with all of you somewhat, but that's just my opinion.

What I want - just me - is for Bin Laden and Al Quaeda to be crushed. We have a right to defend ourselves, and if Al Quaeda ever becomes a state, the problem will change for the worse. The Taliban is working with Al Quaeda already.

Then I want our troops home - military goal only. We got caught up with nation building because W needed a new excuse. That's all.

That's also just my opinion.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but...

Didn't OBL deny culpability for 9/11? Weren't 19/20 supposed hijackers of Saudi origin? Aren't we colonizing Iraq to replace our presence in SA, as such threatened the monarchy there?

OK, nevermind, party's over anyway. Good convo though, glad I wasn't involved to ruin it. Thunderstorm time, yee-haw...

Tim Osmond

You wheel-chair bound?

RR, thanks. Yes, that's what I meant. I went with a friend to a usually booming consignment store in 'moneyed' area here, and the owner said that it's been so slow that 2 of his competitors when out of business.

It just looks generally grim.

tt

Thought that was weird?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_IU86I_L9k&feature=related

Guy with a hole in his head. Gotta see it, just because the guy is in such good humor.

bethy...

"I love the whole wheat and spinach and tomato pasta.
I've heard of Quinoa but don't know what it is or how to cook it."

I love whole wheat pasta, too, but learned to cook with other grains because my son is sensitive to wheat. Quinoa is just another grain. When it's made into pasta, it also often contains corn. It's very easy to cook...just like other pastas...in boiling water on the stovetop. I use a brand called Ancient Harvest, and cook it for 6 - 9 minutes (I usually go toward the low end and cook it about 7 minutes.). The instructions are on the box.

Another pasta I enjoy is Papadini's lentil pasta.

Good Morning everyone,

Did someone say Patsa?
Every Friday I have lunch at the Esprit cafe here in Amsterdam...they have the best pasta. One of them is smoked chicken pasta with slices of bacon and pineapple.
The sauce is of the best quality and you just eat your fingers....

If one of you come to Amsterdam please let me show you the place...YUMMIE......

Sounds good Jason, but not as good as the roasted goat I had at Bev's Caribbean Kitchen in Ann Arbor a few years ago. That was my only experience eating goat. The next day I became a vegetarian for two years. I would go into a Taco Bell and say "Gimme a chicken soft taco and hold the chicken."

I would love to see Obama say "We're pulling out of Iraq for good and we need to stop construction on that bondoggle project of an US Embassy in Baghdad. We won't need it as we won't be concerned with Iraq after I am President. It has been too large a drain on our economy and it was built with forced Pakistani labor...we will abandon it on January 20.
We will cut our losses and leave Iraq as soon as we can get the aircraft turned around and get the troops home.
Our long national nightmare, part two, will be over as soon as they swear me in."

Sounds good Jason, but not as good as the roasted goat I had at Bev's Caribbean Kitchen in Ann Arbor a few years ago. That was my only experience eating goat. The next day I became a vegetarian for two years. I would go into a Taco Bell and say "Gimme a chicken soft taco and hold the chicken."

Posted by: Dexter | July 23, 2008 2:44 AM

LOL.......I never had goat Dex....ya killin´ me....

Harborwoman - so is quinoa a noodle-like pasta? I have a friend who is diabetic, type 2, but had problems recently after heart surgery. Her blood sugar went sky-high and she was very depressed, so I started looking for more things for diabetics to eat and that's when I saw quinoa (is it a brand name?)

Also, we're wondering if one of our adorable boys isn't allergic to wheat. I've been very lucky - no food allergies but some in my family not so lucky.

I'l get some quinoa - actually should google it! Thanks.

bethy...

Quinoa is a grain. The pasta they make from it can be formed into any shape. I have spirals, spaghetti, and linguini shapes. The brand I use is Ancient Harvest, but there must be others. If you have trouble finding it in a store in your area, Amazon.com sells it online. I have to order the Papadini pasta from a warehouse now...local stores quit carrying it. They make me order it 3 cases at a time (9 boxes per case), so I haven't ordered it in a long time. Don't know if their 'rules' have changed. Will be glad to track down the phone number for you if you're interested.

If you believe someone in your family may have a wheat allergy, it would be wise to have him tested for Celiac disease before removing wheat from his diet. If he's Celiac, removing wheat will be a lifelong necessity. If it's only a sensitivity or allergy, he may be able to have it occasionally. That will be up to his doctor. That said, my son has been wheat free for almost 5 years, and we have no plan to challenge it as he prefers to remain wheat free, but he was never tested for Celiac disease. He's on the autism spectrum...85% of kids with autism are helped by removing wheat and dairy from their diet.

bethy...

Here are links to Amazon.com for quinoa...the first is for spirals, the second is for linguini shaped pasta.

http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Harvest-Quinoa-Rotelle-8-Ounce/dp/B000LKUTN2/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1216797529&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Harvest-Quinoa-Linguine-8-Ounce/dp/B000LKUTIM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1216797529&sr=1-7

The offending protein in wheat is gluten, so if you need to go wheat free, you'll be looking for gluten-free foods. There are many available. I'll be happy to give you some pointers if you need them.

MEDICAL ALERT '' craig c seems to have slipped
into a coma . he has'nt moved for almost a week
now maybe its time to pull the plug

MEDICAL ALERT '' craig c seems to have slipped
into a coma . he has'nt moved for almost a week
now maybe its time to pull the plug

Posted by: MQW | July 23, 2008 3:53 AM

Hahahahahhahahhhaahhaaha.
I think it´s time for William Shatner...for RECUE 9 1 1 !

Got up early this morning and caught a lot of the coverage of Obama on tour. This guy is unbelievable! What arrogance in the way he is conducting himself. I even had to laugh at the way he was walking around Jordan with his jacket slung perfectly ( model like) over his shoulder. His press conference was also very confusing but it really doesn't matter the media will continue its love affair. Too bad MCCain is such a disasterous candidate---There really isn't much of a choice here--

"Patsi....the few times I have seen the back blog, it made me realize just how powerful you are....they had to set-up another blog just to deal with you!

I would be flattered if I were you....you really are getting to them, but they aren't getting to you!

Posted by: Blonde wino | July 22, 2008 10:01 AM"

BW-

You have no idea what you are talking about. I dont have a problem in the world with Patsi. I came to C-List for years before it got totally out of had in the primaries, stoked by BushMcCain trolls.

My advice to you is to not stick your nose where it doesnt belong.

And congratulations, you have made one of the dumbest remarks I have seen here in months....and that says a lot.

Hugs and Hellos to Renee, Patsi and Jamie and Ping Pong, my old pals.

AH

Hey Craig Crawford -Today is Imus Birthday

I hope you got him something green:)

http://www.myspace.com/getoffmyphone