Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Wow am I the FIRST? I feel so SPECIAL !!!

ET.....good marnin' to ya.....dont rejoice too hurriedly.....judging from yesterday's postings, it's like being first in the ring at a crap throwing contest.....

et, re "we want america back" attributed to europeans, i recall hearing that as a comment made by one of our less profound pundits pundating as to what he thot they were saying.

Here are three threads I just posted on Friday blog... I was a bit ticked when I wrote the last one particularly, but just for the sake of discussion here it is:

I remember someone quoted a European saying "We want America back". Well, tough cookies, it's our country, not theirs.

Posted by: champ | July 18, 2008 9:20 PM

LOL .. Europeans have never said "we want America back". That's pure fiction. What Europeans want is the USA to stop presuming that they have the right to dictate to other countries exactly what they MUST do to appease the U.S. government.

Posted by: EuroTom | July 19, 2008 7:09 AM
To Flatus.. final reply on the subject of the gas station and energy consumption:

ET,

I wrote:

"Look, people need to start thinking about the sustainability of our planet. We Americans have acted like buying gas at prices that keep us smiling and traveling is a GOD GIVEN RIGHT! We are overusing the world's resources and it's time to think not only for our individual interests, but our collective ones as well.

Think people! WE have only 1 planet. We can all do little bits to make improvements."

Flatus writes:

Tom, I certainly wasn't criticizing you for the choice of work you're doing; I don't do that type of thing.

But I did sense, in your above comment, that you were being overly judgmental of us. We, collectively, are victims of our circumstance and environment just as you describe with your own situation in your later comments.

~snip~

I don't question your reaction because it's how you felt. I am judgmental about this issue ! And I am judgmental because I am AMERICAN and know how resistant our country has been toward significant and sustainable energy conservation. We bitch and moan about the price of gasoline, not even taking into consideration that we are 111th most expensive out of 156 nations. And the big 3 automakers have resisted any attempts to build more fuel efficient cars which would help greatly. And when the Dems wanted a new energy efficient policy, Dingell did his part to try to stop any mandates on the auto makers.

America is based on the concept of individualism. We tend to think of our own individualistic needs over collective ones. That is certainly part of human nature, but having grown up and lived most of my life in the USA and now 10 years in Europe, there is a startling difference. VERY generally speaking, Europeans tend to think more collectively... whether energy policy, sustainability, facing global warming... etc. etc.

the 70s were known as the "me generation" and certainly the economic and political policies ushered in during the Reagan years only further solidified the notion of "I got mine and to hell with the rest of you"... As long as we can drive our big gas guzzling autos and still buy lettuce at prices that keep us smiling, we're ok.

And frankly, this motley crew of bloggers are some of the more enlightened when it comes to these issues. With the larger population not giving a damn or oblivious to the source problems facing our country and planet, it is no wonder that nothing really changes.

Off my soap box...

Posted by: EuroTom | July 19, 2008 7:23 AM
There's something to be said for reputation, but I don't believe it should be a primary motivator. Do what's best for Americans, and let others think what they will. As it is now, It looks like the majority of Americans are ready to toss our sovereignty away for the sake of some whiny Europeans.

I remember someone quoted a European saying "We want America back". Well, tough cookies, it's our country, not theirs.

Posted by: champ | July 18, 2008 9:20 PM

I read this message further ... and I had to laugh further. WHINEY EUROPEANS? Champ your Reagan revultinglation is showing. This has been the problem in America. We do what we want and the rest of the world be damned. But it's not that simple. Americans cannot assume they can continue to create the most greenhouse gasses and ignore the fact that they are endangering the sustainability of our planet. If the effects of carbon emissions and so forth would stay only within the borders of the USA you might have a point. But the effects don't stop there. And frankly, the USA's "superpower" status is diminishing. I realize the right wing doesn't want to believe that, but it is happening. America fought the "evil empire" and did a great job during the two world wars. If it continues to presume the right to be world dictators then they are simply recreating the very evil of empire that they were fighting against.

I'd rather be smashing imperialism !!!

Posted by: EuroTom | July 19, 2008 7:35 AM

.. What Europeans want is the USA to stop presuming that they have the right to dictate to other countries exactly what they MUST do to appease the U.S. government.

Posted by: EuroTom Author Profile Page | July 19, 2008 7:09 AM

From viewing a few posts from late yesterday, many American posters feel that they have the right to dictate to others exactly what they must post to appease them. Maybe it's contagious.

Chloe it is true isn't it? We need Craig back to keep us in line ! LOL.. just kidding...

Sturg, you said a mouthful with your post ! LOL... Oh well, if it gets too out of hand, I'll do something else :D

"And frankly, the USA's "superpower" status is diminishing. I realize the right wing doesn't want to believe that, but it is happening. America fought the "evil empire" and did a great job during the two world wars. If it continues to presume the right to be world dictators then they are simply recreating the very evil of empire that they were fighting against." Posted by: EuroTom | July 19, 2008 7:37 AM

ET,
You are right on this morning. It's so good to hear a perspective from a fellow American that is in the position to look at what's going on here from the outside.

ET,
Craig is a lot more wise and important than we give him credit for.

nice short showing on TCM.....so far, Bob Hope, Betty Hutton, and then Judy singing "somewhere over the rainbow".

Obama in Afghanistan
| 7/19/08 7:19 AM
The campaign announced early Saturday morning, Eastern time, that Obama was on the ground in Kabul.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11878.html

gotta go

Oh speaking of Judy Garland, I was just playing "The Man that Got Away" on my iTunes... I am a big ole Judy fan. Liza too..

Judy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzyPMRo8ZUQ

and Liza: Steppin' Out .. a terrific dance and singing scene from the fabulous movie! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9An-lL0Qaf0

ET.....by the way........"mouthfull" is not a good image for a crap throwing contest........

From EuroTom: "Think people! WE have only 1 planet."

Actually, I think if yesterday evening's discourse did nothing else, it at least established that we have several planets to choose from. And I think lots of folks have already taken up residence on alternative planets.

(And I'm not just talking about GORDO and his spaceship.)

ET -- One thing about the environment that I really noticed when living in Europe was just how much trash Americans produce -- and that was back in '69 and '70! My German friends filled a trash bag every three or four days, whereas I'd hoist a bag of trash to the outdoor cans ever day or so. It was all because I shopped so much at the Army commisary and it boiled down to American packaging.

And our packaging is far worse now.

ET,

God bless the Europeans. I was just thinking, trying to recall what Europeans have done to help Americans. And then, I thought about what Americans have done to help Europeans.

If you want to build a Europeans helping Americans list feel free. I'll even give you a head start with Lafayette's support during the American Revolution.

You do that, and I'll build the Americans helping Europeans side of the ledger.

Kind of a separate subject. I recall the newsreels that they used to show in theaters back in the 40s and 50s. When they showed pictures of European cities, the roads were generally crowded with people riding bicycles.

Dumb Americans thought that the bike riders were fitness nuts and extrapolated that Europeans eschewed cars in favor of bicycles because they loved exercise and enjoyed peddling their butts off.

Zoom forward thirty years and you'd be hard pressed to see a single person riding a bike on an urban thoroughfare. The roads were clogged with automobiles.

This suited European governments because it gave them an easy way of taxing the hell out of their subjects. And, that tax policy, along with a lack of decent sized parking spaces, effectively dictated the size and horsepower of most European cars.

The obvious exception was in Germany where the true mark of success was having a car that would cruise the autobahns at 110-mph.

We have serious problems in this country; but, gratuitous criticism from our European friends will do little to improve either of our situations.

And by the way, all anyone needs to do to see what happens on Trail Mix is to read Morning Trail as opposed to later. It's almost always a pleasant conversation in the mornings -- maybe a few differences, but not snotty.

speaking of trash and other planets.....why would the discoverers of a more serene and peaceful planet keep returning to this one to un-load their garbage?

"this motley crew of bloggers" et?
i may be moldy, but never motley.....
and speaking for the rest of us martians, larlib, without our leader yesterday we wandered the galaxies in search of truths unknown.

We have serious problems in this country; but, gratuitous criticism from our European friends will do little to improve either of our situations.

Posted by: Flatus | July 19, 2008 8:43 AM

Huh? I don't quite get this comment.

ET -- I have a question....Obama is getting some criticism for not going to Brussels because of its importance to Europe....what do you think?

"i may be moldy, but never motley....."

ROFL, pat!

ET -- One thing about the environment that I really noticed when living in Europe was just how much trash Americans produce -- and that was back in '69 and '70! My German friends filled a trash bag every three or four days, whereas I'd hoist a bag of trash to the outdoor cans ever day or so. It was all because I shopped so much at the Army commisary and it boiled down to American packaging.

And our packaging is far worse now.

Posted by: Patsi | July 19, 2008 8:42 AM

heheheh Patsi... well I was just annoyed because I had plastic wrappers and stuff that is not accepted as recycling here...so I have to throw it in the regular trash. One area where I need improvement is leftover waste from veggies and so forth... I have been tossing them in with the rest of the trash, but I should, in fact, dig a hole in the ground and toss it there with a small layer of dirt on top... a compost. I don't have a yard though, so I'd probably have to take it over to my ex's house... OK I've just decided, this is what I am going to do! Besides, composting is nutritional for the ground and the soil !!!

I am just learning about these issues. When I got the gas station I insisted on sorting the garbage ... plastics and tins / paper / and the regular garbage. One of the delivery men said mine was the only station in the network that does that and he asked "why are you required to do it?" . I replied that I felt it was important enough to do even with it being a disgusting job and that I made the decision myself.

I have started washing all my clothes in cold water and usually in shorter cycles. I am still looking for ways to conserve but it's not always easy.

Patd... my apartment is moldy! I am in dispute with the landlord ("huisbaas" in Dutch) over his neglect. This is certainly not a nirvana that is for sure.

"Barack Obama is in Afghanistan but the big political news imo is that Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al-Maliki told the German magazine Der Speigel that he agrees with Barack Obama's plan for Iraq:

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki told a German magazine he supported prospective U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's proposal that U.S. troops should leave Iraq within 16 months. In an interview with Der Spiegel released on Saturday, Maliki said he wanted U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq as soon as possible.

"U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama talks about 16 months. That, we think, would be the right timeframe for a withdrawal, with the possibility of slight changes."
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/7/19/84326/7088

ET -- I have a question....Obama is getting some criticism for not going to Brussels because of its importance to Europe....what do you think?

Posted by: Patsi | July 19, 2008 8:51 AM

To be honest I never gave it a thought. I will take a wild guess that Obama will be visiting leaders of European nations in the near future. Reading the Flemish newspapers during the primaries, it seemed clear that Europeans preferred the Democrats over the Republicans. The former Defense Minister in Belgium got chewed out by Colin Powell in 2004 because he was asked what party he would support if he were an American and he said "the Democrats". Powell accused the Minister of interfering with the internal US elections. I remember cracking up about that. After that Bush spoke out that Turkey should be welcomed to join in the EU and one of the countries accused Bush of interfering with the internal membership issues of the EU, clearly a swipe back in the face...

Anyway, the alliances between Europe and America will no doubt become stronger after Bush is out of office. And let me say, most Europeans still respect Americans and in Belgium there is always a memory that the American soldiers helped save the country during two different wars!

I think it would be nice to see Barack Obama visit Brussels...

Tom...funny thing about recycling. I'm all for it too. But we had a story in our local paper recently that dampened my enthusiasm.

It turns out that all the glass that people take the trouble to sort and put into bins here in Orlando area is not actually recycled. That process is too expensive and People In Charge Of Making Glass basically have decided it's not worth it. So all those bottles and jars that we feel so smug about "re-using" are instead simply crushed and used for things like roadbed in landfills. Isn't that a bummer?

Same thing's gotta be going on in lots of places.

"I have started washing all my clothes in cold water and usually in shorter cycles."

I do the same, ET -- and these days, only take baths with not as much water. The difference when I have family here taking 30 minute showers is stunning! (But I'd never ask anybody to give up their showers! I like baths anyway -- so it's not a big sacrifice!)

Lard -- that story about recycling glass reminds me of back in grad school when a friend of mine was always griping at me for using white sugar. She was paying twice as much for the raw, brown crystals from some supposedly environmentally friendly company. Then the news broke...this company was processing white sugar into brown crystals and dying it. Ha!

typical "back channel" comment.

"I have started washing all my clothes in cold water and usually in shorter cycles."

I do the same, ET -- and these days, only take baths with not as much water. The difference when I have family here taking 30 minute showers is stunning! (But I'd never ask anybody to give up their showers! I like baths anyway -- so it's not a big sacrifice!)

Posted by: Patsi | July 19, 2008 9:05 AM

Ah Patsi how funny. I was just talking to my ex about energy bills as my gas and electricity budget payments are jumping €21 a month. I have this weird water heater that is also the house heater.. and it takes a long time for the cold water to become warm... So now I've decided to put a bucket in the shower to collect the cold water and then use that for plants, cleaning, what have you. Anyway... re the shower...

I have started doing more conservative showers. meaning I turn the shower on, get wet, shut it off and then shampoo, then on to rinse and then bath oil (in place of soap due to allergies) placed with a wash cloth and after I am cleaned, I turn the water back on to rinse myself and then out of the shower. This might sound radical, but water rates are also raising considerably and so I am trying to cut corners. And frankly, I worry about water too (though to be honest, Belgium is a lot like Seattle/Pacific Northwest weather... lots of rain and cloudiness).

I love this blog today!

xoxoxox

ahhhhhhh......so after dumping garbage over here all day, he's ready for a break at 2 am.......lol

well......soon's they show up today, Im outa heah.....

I drug this post forward from last nights conversation. In between the food fight stuff Patsi , Jamie and I had a conversation about books. I was curious How many of you have a library. how big is it and what books do you read or collect. I won't be able to participate much today , infact the wife just wondered how I can sit at the computer with her home.

So I thought I would share this and check in later.

As you can tell I'm a political buff so part of my library (and it took one trip of the pickup truck to move it last time, and it is bigger) is various political books and good biographies. My history books are mostly left over from college but I have many of those over many subjects.
I have always loved science from a laymans point of view. in the late 80's I found I was getting out of touch so I subscribed to Scientific American, Then joined the scientific book club. I have many science books some for the layman some for the professional I enjoy struggling through those and trying to understand their math.

My collecting bug is science fiction. If I've read it it is down stairs on the shelf. The biggest bulk of my books are those.

Jack

It turns out that all the glass that people take the trouble to sort and put into bins here in Orlando area is not actually recycled. That process is too expensive and People In Charge Of Making Glass basically have decided it's not worth it. So all those bottles and jars that we feel so smug about "re-using" are instead simply crushed and used for things like roadbed in landfills. Isn't that a bummer?

Same thing's gotta be going on in lots of places.
Posted by: LardassLiberal | July 19, 2008 9:04 AM

LL that's disgusting! I am going to ask what happens to the glass here... I mean, c'mon!!

:-) will report back later. I'll ask my student worker, he is a journalism major.

Europeans tend to think more collectively ???

Who posted this BS?

First European culture is more homogeneous - and the sum of any groups opinion could be labeled collectively.

The lead editorial in this morning''s Journal talks about carbon and the bureaucratic approach to it. I hope this link works:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121642309337666613.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

jack.....i have a huge library, but most of it is in boxes in 2 travel trailers......moved to a very small condo near the beach and just didnt have the strength to unpack them again.....spy fiction.....historical fiction.......biography........histories.......science fiction........
i particularly collect "celebrity" books as a type of hobby......sports figures, movie stars, etc.......plenty of off the wall stuff like Van Loon's geography etc.....I'll try to remember more of what's in them boxes.....lol

ET......Van Loon's books would probably be of particular interest to you............

Why would Mr Obama go to Brussels?

Because that's where the military part of NATO has its headquarters. He absolutely must learn non-US NATO's position re Afghanistan and terrorism, directed from afar, within individual NATO countries.

Since NATO's founding, the United States has been a faithful NATO partner.

Flatus,
How you doing?
Based on your link - I am thinking to not do my weekly chores and let the grass grow. Get ahead of the curve

PS - back from a trip to Germany, closed my eyes in all of the traffic jams - could be any place in the US

Do you think BHO has any deeper understanding of NATO then the average college grad?

Sturge -- I still have some boxes of books in storage as well. Plus, when I moved the last time I gave box after box to the used book store. I felt like I was parting with a piece of myself.

I used to buy books (I love mysteries and they were over taking the house) but now I use the library. The only permanent collection is cookbooks (and a few signed books mostly political in nature.)

On another note, the FDA is in the final days of comments on their Food Safety Plan. Everyone is welcome to comment. (last day 7/30) I have also included a link to an article from today's SFChronicle about the impact of Bush style regulation on food safety.

FDA is currently taking comments on their Food Protection Plan, and we have some very specific suggestions for them. These suggestions include having more FDA inspectors on the ground, having control over where imported food comes from, and having mandatory recall authority.

FDA-2008-N-0188, Food Protection Plan; Outreach Activities; Opportunity for Public Comment, can be found at www.regulations.gov.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/19/MN8L11RHC2.DTL

PP, doing fine, thanks.

Do you need help in not doing your carbon producing chores? I'm deeply concerned about EPA's position re flatulence; they are hitting below the belt.

Do you go to the continent often? Except for the food and beverages, I'd pass.

KGC -- I gave a lot of my cookbooks to the used bookstore during that last move and I regret it SO much now. It wasn't even as if I cooked all the time, but I loved reading them!

"I'm deeply concerned about EPA's position re flatulence; they are hitting below the belt."

Stop it right now! ROFL!

Good AM KGC and Patsi....

Flatus.
The FDA may produce a strong warning label on Beans! and other items. But image if one could capture the output and create a new level of Bio Fuel !!!

OH my maybe AlGore will read these posts and copy, jump on this bandwagen also.... How funny is he

Question?

Which private aircraft did AlGore fly in from his luxary home to deliver the speech that he captured from many other blogs... Like the internet he is now creating a new vision for America.

Oh he purchased double the carbon offset credits.... Thats right

"I gave a lot of my cookbooks to the used bookstore during that last move and I regret it SO much now. It wasn't even as if I cooked all the time, but I loved reading them!" Patsi

Food magazines too --aka food porn.

I travel over the pond 3 or 4 times a year...... Actually I enjoy

Hi Ping
I never liked the concept of pollution credits either!
The carbon offsets are a nice idea but not really a solution.

Drifting by today, nice to see the calm atmosphere here (though its hazy, hot & humid in CT).

Books, I'd have to confess to preference for mysteries & any of those light summer reading titles aimed toward women--often made into movies or for TV.

Have lots of books tied up & stored in the unfinished room above my garage (for some reason I can not throw away old books-so they just sit up there collecting dust).

Im reading PITCAIRN'S ISLAND now.....Nordoff and Hall......read bounty, of course, but never the island aftermath by them...........(curious in light of the blog)

re-read herodotus, thucydides and xenophon regularly....

it's a monstrous task, jack.....I probably have in possession most of the stuff I've ever read......Im an inveterate collector of books.......clavell, geo mcD fraser, kesey, allan sherman, HS thompson, huge philosophy section, mostly unread.....heidegger, kant, hegel etc
the russians well represented, probably no french save montaigne...
two I do read is complete nietzsche and kierkegaard
lord of the flies gets a regular reading.......
catch 22 and Catcher ITR........
cheap mysteries mickey spillane, ross thomas etc
the reader's encyclopedia......invaluable.....edited by wm rose benet......good into the 1930's............

sentimental favorite book: Songs My Mother Taught Me, by marlon brando........

(this is nuts.) lol

"Food magazines too --aka food porn."

Exactly! Same reason I love foodtv....

Sturge -- you really have to read Woodrow's Trumpet if you haven't already....I think you'd love it.

pats........will check it out.....we have a great bookstore right here on the island......

Gotta run....will check back in later to see if it's safe. If not, I better just turn off the computer, because I don't seem to be able to ignore incoming fire.

KCG
I never understood the value of Carbon Offsets beyond providing wealthy individuals to hide behind a concpet that in and of it self do not provide behavioral changes needed IF indeed one truly feels global warming is man made as product of carbon emissions.

I'm off to look for blueberries. Couldn't make it to RebelRenee's but sounded so good. blueberry pie hmmmm good.

Tom,

I was 10 or so when Reagan left office. Like I said; no disciple. I'm hung-over and not too eloquent right now, but don't be so presumptuous as to my beliefs. I mean, you can be if you want to, but quite frankly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As far as the quote I cited, it was something someone quoted here, so I guess I was quoting 3rd hand, for what that's worth. Probably not much.

Boop, one-world government's coming sooner than you think. You probably won't see it, count your blessings, but I might. And it will be more like a Tri-world government, a la "1984". Some schill in Newsweek wrote an article about it, maybe Zakaria, I dunno. Like I said, they're grooming us to make the transition more palatable. "We are the world"-type malarkey.

When it happens, it's not going to be some harmonious sing-along, it's going to be oppressive socialism devoid of choice and freedom. Hell, even Marx asserted that much. But what do I know. Maybe it will be awesome. Nah... it'll suck. How do think people like me will fare under such a system? Not well. Wheels of progress gonna flatten my ass. C'est la vie.

FREEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDOMMMMMMMMM!

Europeans tend to think more collectively ???

Who posted this BS?

First European culture is more homogeneous - and the sum of any groups opinion could be labeled collectively.

Posted by: Ping Pong | July 19, 2008 9:22 AM

European culture is more homogeneous? Have you ever lived here???

probably about as homogenous as this comments section of CQ.

ie.......show me ANY group of humans, and I'll show you the same old tired story as old as writing.

9/11 Survivor (sort of) was singing the praises of Kombucha tea. I stopped at a massage therapist shop across the street from my shop and she had this tea called GREEN GUARDIAN biologische by the firm Yogi Tea. It's a green tea. Anyway, I just looked at the Yogi Tea website and they have another tea:
"Green Tea Kombucha". Has anyone here consumed Kombucha on a regular basis? Have you noticed any difference?

Tom

Patsi,

You're right. I like the morning crowd on Trail Mix, too. Last night, on this blog, I just kept my mouth shut, hunkered down behind my computer screen and tried to stay out of sniper fire.

You're so evolved, sturge.

lol @ 'ping pong'. Ain't me though. "champ" is anonymous enough for me.

Wow, Snickers bars are a pretty good hangover remedy. Who knew?

Jack,

I have a library. I've always been a reader.

Good MOrning All,

Slept in and all your busy folks are all over the place.

Sturgeone, You can always travel to Pitcairn if it interests you.

http://www.southpacific.org/faq/pitcairn.html

On the library subject. - I guess ours would be equal to one of those long, tall line of shelves in the city library. We have six, 6-shelf cases and four, 3-shelf cases dotted throughout the house, then there are the night stands, side tables, and window ledges. Books may be a previously undescribed life form that breeds and reproduces during the night when we aren't watching. The only way to keep it under some semblance of control is regular donations of "once read not likely to repeat" volumes to the library.

Interesting blog on art work based on Obama

http://www.obamaartreport.com/

Why not Brussels? Despite all the hoopla over the trip, this is a Congressional delegation limited by the rules and budgets of such things. I'm sure there are things that he could learn from NATO but it would probably be somewhat inappropriate to do it alone until such time as he is actually elected and it may not be possible as part of a group given security considerations.

Ping's Pong is way off.. Just read about the DEEP divisions in Belgium alone and you will know very well that Europe is not homogenous to any great degree. Plus the influx of Islamic peoples has created a lot of division, mistrust and outright hatred. From what I have read of the history here, the countries have never been very homogenous. An insult in the early 20th century apparently caused the outbreak of World War 1: http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II

Neither of these wars speak to a "homogenous" Europe. Also, the enlarging of the European Union has not been as smooth as soon had hoped. Just now, The European Commission is planning to block almost $1bn in funds for Bulgaria as a penalty for failing to tackle corruption and organised crime.

Someone explain the "homogenous" culture of Europe...

ie again.......start out with the so-called perfect message of christ and you end up with sects, cults, separate bldgs, factions, schisms and every jimmie jack and joe has his own interpretation of what old jeebus meant and it always progresses to murderous intent.....inquisitions, punishments, a great big ETC.

humans is the Stupid Animal.

Smart move, marcia.

Though I will say if all the participants here got all their venom out on the forum, rather that subjecting family and friends to such, maybe it's a good thing. Takin' one for the team.

champ......what's "evolved" got to do with it, eh? what's "evolved" about looking into history a little bit?

"evolved" sounds so pedestrian when you say it........lol

Your contempt for humanity is dangerous, Struge, and prime fodder for socialists. Ever think maybe it's you?

Lemme guess, if everyone lived according to your principles, the world would be a better place, right? Same line of logic as those Christians you deride.

Well, I am the stupid animal, after all. An avid walker, though.

There really wasn't that much of a fight going on last night other than someone or a group of someone's having a good time with constantly changing aliases which happen to be a pet peeve of mine.

I like knowing who all your guys are or at least the person you are consistently pretending to be. : -)

RE: Nato, here is an interesting article about France's role in the alliance

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,559304,00.html

GETTING TO OUI
France's Return to NATO Can Complement EU Security

By Leo Michel
President Sarkozy seeks a rapprochement with NATO while strengthening the European Union’s defense dimension. France’s allies, including the United States and Germany, have welcomed this. But Sarkozy faces strong domestic resistance to changing France’s relationship to NATO.

Well, I am the stupid animal, after all. An avid walker, though.

Posted by: champ | July 19, 2008 11:10 AM

Why do you keep dissing socialists? Are you confusing that with totalitarianism?

champ.....what principles would that be? and the world is definitely NOT going to be a better place no matter what principles they follow......... fodder? I quit being fodder years ago.......

yes......quite probably it is entirely me.

I didnt deride christians so much as point out that their message has become quite garbled over the centuries.......but I am entirely acquiescent with those who do deride them......like hitchens and nietzsche and the like.....they make quite a bit of sense to me............

Just another thought, there are more institutions in Europe than just Nato.. There is the European Parliament, the European Commission ... to name just a couple...

and mencken and twain and george washington plunkett............

Socialism always turns into totalitarianism, Tom, because there is no other way to enforce it than with oppression. If you can give me an example to the contrary, have at it, but I don't think you can. Chavez's Venezuela? Castro's Cuba? Stalin's Russia? Socialism blows. Sounds like a neat idea at first, though. Puts to much power in the hands of administrators, though.

and thomas jefferson.

Since there seems to be a religion debate here, I offer this:

"Religion is the opiate of the people" is one of the most frequently quoted statements of Karl Marx. It was translated from the German original, "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and is often referred to as "religion is the opiate of the masses." The quote originates from the introduction of his 1843 work Contribution to Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right which was subsequently released one year later in Marx's own journal Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher, a collaboration with Arnold Ruge. The phrase "Tis opium you feed your people" appears in 1797 in Marquis de Sade's text L'Histoire de Juliette. In Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley states that opium is the religion of the people (or rather, soma).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_of_the_people

It's been a long time since I have participated so much... I tend to not post so much.

Ok, got way too much stuff to do to be arguing on the net. Have a good day.

whenever god erects a house of prayer
the devil always builds a chapel there
and twill be found on examination
the latter has the largest congregation.

--daniel defoe

Champ, tossing in statements and then saying you have too much stuff to do to argue isn't really a good approach to a discussion, but hey, it's your call.

here's someone who knew how to deride christianity:

I call christianity the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost perversion, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no are too venomous, too underhand, too underground and too petty....I call it the one enormous blemish of mankind.

FWnietzsche

that was a guy who knew how to "deride".

Just respect other people's beliefs, dude, unless they don't respect yours. Then have at it, though you could also be the better man.

I kind of agree with you to that end, for the most part, but I understand why Christians get so uppity, because they are always being taunted in the media by ivory-tower eggheads.

Sweden is socialist... Socialists make up part of the coalition in Belgium, other European governments have been socialist and not totalitarian. The individualist "magic of the market' where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is hardly a model devoid of totalitarianism when the poor prop up the rich so they can over consume and live a "scorched earth policy" for profit and yet even more conspicuous consumption.

Tom,

I'm trying to sell my house and I got a showing in two hours. Gots ta clean. Whatever, dude, type what you want, you know I'll be back later to read it.

"I have a library. I've always been a reader."

Marcia -- I always wanted a real library -- with a fireplace....nothing but books and chairs, a place to read. I sort of have one now, but it's a combo library office. Not quite as nifty as my fantasy library.

I have a friend who built a beach house on Long Island and it has a little tower, windows all around, with her books and an easy chair. Overlooks the ocean. Heaven!

I think part of the Brussels reasoning was also because of the European Union.

should read "for which no means are too venomous"

and champ......Everything Always Ends Up As Totalitarianism. general rule with perhaps few exceptions.......

I want to know more about champ... LOL

"other than someone or a group of someone's having a good time with constantly changing aliases "

ha -- and you can't tell the players without a program....

A Bundle of Hypocrisy - Washington Post editorial

Saturday, July 19, 2008; Page A14
IT WASN'T so long ago -- last September, to be specific -- that a senator with a particular interest in campaign finance reform introduced a bill to provide important transparency in presidential campaigns. The measure, S. 2030, would require presidential campaigns to report the names of fundraisers who bring in "bundles" of individual contributions totaling $50,000 or more. The campaigns would have to report the occupations of the bundlers and the specific amounts they are credited with raising. This was a terrific idea. It's too bad that the bill's sponsor, Barack Obama, is failing to follow the rules he set out.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/18/AR2008071802595.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

only offered for discussion...

champ.....im quite certain that I am not the "better man", by the way.......cant see much reason to even consider such a construct..........

ET..

Back from adding to carbon with my lawn mower.

You are correct !

Some call it an invasion of Europe.
My comment was focused more on a "micro" village level that is the source of most of my exposure.

Patsi,

This is the library I fell in love with. Heck if it was good enough for a President, It's good enough for me. I'm not greedy. The bottom floor would be enough. :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AdamsNHS-Library.jpeg

euroTom - The homogenous appearance of Europeans to this American can best be seen in the placement of sliverware on the dinner table, as I am not sure if all drive on the wrong side of the road over there. Oh, and the Euro.

Thanks for the explanation on yesterday's thread; I really was under the impression that all of Europe was very multilingual/multicultural and that, in essence, was the cohesive force of Europe.

una ultima quote from the great jefferson since it's still july:

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
---Thomas Jefferson

ET
Not sure I understand your statement that "Europeans tend to think more collectively" which was the key point of my response. I see them to be as diverse as the US.

Also kudo's to you for your efforts with Eco efforts. Which I fully agree you see in action in Europe more then the US.

Ah, Patsi, that sounds lovely. Don't know how much reading I would get done; I'd be staring at the ocean & drifting off to sleep. My library of the mind is in a remodeled barn in CT, surrounded by trees.

Sturge said: "...start out with the so-called perfect message of christ and you end up with sects, cults, separate bldgs, factions, schisms and every jimmie jack and joe has his own interpretation of what old jeebus meant..."

My interpretation is that the entropy you describe is, in fact, the perfect representation of Christ's real message. Because in my view, the message and behavior Christ models is narcissistic: "Follow me. Let the dead bury the dead. It's all about me."

Compared to, say, the Buddha.

Seriously, I know he had the platitudes and healed people and was generous and all of that -- rah, rah. Go Jesus. But so much of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John seems to be based on how we relate to Christ and honor his (as well as his Daddy-o's) supremacy as opposed to how we treat each other.

Two cases in point:

Case study 1: 'Let the dead bury the dead'. People need to plant their crops, take care of their families, bury their parents...the stuff good people are supposed to be doing to make the world a better place. But Jesus instructs: "No. Don't do that. Follow me. Let the dead bury the dead." Huh? I don't get it. Follow you where, and toward what better end? Building up brownie points so I (that would be ME) can get into heaven?"

Case study 2: The story of the three lepers healed by Jesus. They all run away in joy to shout the good news to their families and friends, but then one stops and comes running back to Jesus to thank him. And that one is supposedly "the good one" in the moral of the story. The two others are being selfish because they didn't thank Jesus. Jesus, you see, likes to be thanked. Why? Because, repeat after me, it's all about Him.

What bullshit. And we wonder why Christians are so judgemental about one another, and why Christian nations wage war on one another.

There are core principals in the religion that are beautiful, no doubt. But the religion built upon them is sick. At least that's what I think.

Sturg.
You are on a roll!

Last night had a Srimp Burl !! Made creamy grits.
Yum Yum

Blue, only in the UK do people drive on the left side of the road. Also in Australia, but that' s another place. Not all of the EU have joined the Euro... and not all countries have even joined the EU. As I recall Norway is not in the EU and Sweden had a referendum on the EURO and the people there rejected it. The interesting thing about Euro coins is that one side is universal and the other side is nation specific.. This was to address a concern by the UK of losing their national identity with the EURO... i.e. the QUEEN no longer on the money. Of course even after making that concession, the UK rejected the Euro. LOL...

A lot of Europeans seem to say that the UK isn't "really part of Europe" because they insist on still having border checks of anyone coming in from other European countries (which I think should still be the case throughout Europe). Also outside the UK, the rest of the continent is often referred to as "The Mainland"...

Hillary Clinton 2012?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/07/hillary-clint-4.html

Hillary Clinton's revealing purchase: A website called HRC2012
Sometimes a website name is just a website name.

it was foreshadowed in that old testament tower of babel story......

LL,
Possible those that you reference that call themselves Christians are indeed not? And as such should not be used to represent the Truth for which they are false.

Ok this is my 23rd post today and enough is enough... Sorry for overdoing! Will join again tomorrow !!

ET in Belgium.

It is very cool to drive in the Mainland of Europe and see all of the various "States" of origin.

The neederlanders are the worst drivers from my experience.

Patsi,

Your friend is so lucky. Her place by the beach with her library and
easy chair is my dream.

My library is a collection I've been gathering all my life. My books seem to comfort me like old friends.

Ping Pong...you're right: Should have said "self-described Christians" and "so-called Christian nations."

ET - good day to you....

Time to go spray chemicals on the weeds.

Clinton has to run for the Senate in 2012

LL - I find that those the proclaim and TALK are the ones not to watch as they live a lie.

The quiet leaders by example bring to me great insperation.

ET

It is her re-election to the Senate site. If something happens between now and then, its funds can be converted to the use of others. If not, she has moved the previous funds donated for a general election of the Presidency to her use in the Senate.

BTW, Those funds also make her a power house in the Senate. One of Kennedy's big levers on the machinery of power was the ability to assist in the campaigns of others.

Ping Pong: My point exactly. And what character are the "proclaimers" and "talkers" basing their behavior on? Jesus Christ, that's who. Because proclaiming and talking represents most of his activity as recorded in the gospels. I don't think he could be described as a "quiet leader" in anyone's book.

And don't even get me started on the whole "dying for our sins" thing. Talk about the ultimate narcissistic finale...the ultimate luxuriation in martyrdom...

I'll take my religion straight up, no chaser. Thank you very much. I don't need all the extra baggage.

champ,

I suppose you're right that venting frustrations on blogs is preferable to
subjecting family to them.

I guess I just don't like anyone to get wounded in the crossfire.

But, I must say, the drive-by anonymous posts really irritate me, so I usually
ignore them.

I agree with Jamie that it's nicer to get to know each other by one namne and it makes for much more rewarding, grown-up discussions.

oops

I meant "one name"

Jamie -- that library is awesome!

Blue --I'd probably be doing the same! "I'd be staring at the ocean & drifting off to sleep."

Or else I'd be tempted to go down and just sit on the beach....

Sturge -- Just remembered something I meant to mention to you yesterday -- remember Pete's Kitchen and the Satire? The Satire still has those great prices!

http://www.petesrestaurants.com/

Love the discussion about libraries today! I, too, have a large library, but have begun to use the public library more and more. I only buy books now that I either know I want to keep forever, or believe I'll read more than once. My house has become too full of books (if that's possible!)...as has part of my garage, etc.

This website is a library lovers dream. Enjoy....

http://curiousexpeditions.org/2007/09/a_librophiliacs_love_letter_1.html/

"My books seem to comfort me like old friends."

Yes that's exactly what they are....when I moved out to the farm for a couple of years, I left most of my books in storage. One of my cats, Minnie, never adjusted to the farm house. She stayed in a back room and sulked most of the time.

Then, when I moved back to town, I got the bookcases and books set back up. The last things I moved were the three cats and the dog. When I started opening cat carriers, everyone shot off to a hiding place. Except Minnie. She started to, but stopped dead in her tracks when she saw the bookcases lining the wall.

It was a magical personality transformation-- she sat a long time by the books, then strolled through the house, back to her alpha cat/diva self.

" suppose you're right that venting frustrations on blogs is preferable to
subjecting family to them. "

Ha -- Marcia -- I bet you don't have any friends and family who goad you into fights by calling you names.

U.S. News Acknowledges Our Growing Movement

"Democratic anti-Obama movement grows online. According to justsaynodeal.com cofounder ... the Democratic anti-Obama movement is growing online. Mantouvalos claims the number of Democratic anti-Obama websites is growing exponentially. Justsaynodeal.com, an anti-Obama Web site, lists some 160 websites that have sprung up to urge Democrats to vote for McCain so, these Hillary supporters hope, Senator Clinton can take on McCain in 2012.

... some 250 organizations were on a conference call planning a major event three weeks before the Democratic convention next month in Denver."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/19/us-news-acknowledges-our-growing-movement/

HW

That is a wonderful link that needs a lot of exploration. Of course if TipToe sees this description, she will immediately pack her bags for Prague

"for unclear reasons many glass cases full of waxen fruit. Our delight was manifest."

The Real Barack Obama, The Flip Flop Kid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8FHVARKLWc&feature=related

Isn't that a fabulous site, Jamie? There's much more to it than the library page (what an understatement to describe what's there!)...so much to explore! It appears to be the work of one curious couple...their 'blog', if you will.

Hi gang....

taking a short break before I start cooking..... been picking blueberries all morning.... but It's waaaaay toooooo hot for it now..... easily picked enough berries for a couple pies and a couple dozen muffins...... and there's lots of green ones still to be picked when they turn ripe.....

did someone mention a library...... lol.... Rick is starting to "try" to put his foot down about all the books I buy.....
oh and I do use the local library..... I sit on it's board of trustees.....

my collection is very eclectic..... but anyone could easily see that we are politcal and philosophy buffs.....

going to turn the oven on..... everyone have a great weekend!

Welcome to Clintons 4 McCain!

"Welcome to the official website of the Clintons for McCain movement, AKA Clintons4McCain. Working to empower voters nationwide, this maverick group vows to bring you the REAL Barack Hussein Obama, and focus on current affairs ignored by the main stream media ...

... believes as we do in, Country over Party. Our founding philosophy is NObama! Most of our subscribers are Hillary Clinton supporters, but anyone who agrees with NObama - under any circumstances - is welcome here. Join us and help us stop an inexperienced and unvetted man and instead elect an honorable, trustworthy and honest man -- Senator John McCain -- to our nation's highest office."

http://clintons4mccain.com/

harbor -- thanks for the library site! Fabulous! We may have discussed this before, but have you read John Dunning's Bookman series?

mmmmm. Blueberry cobbler. Can't be healthy, but so good. Google a recipe; I make it with bisquick.

Clean, clean, clean...................bbblllleehhhh

Patsi...

No, we haven't discussed John Dunning's Bookman series before. I've not heard of it, so please tell me more.

And...you're welcome for the library site. It's one of my favorites.

The more I see about McCain, the more I hope he does NOT become President. This latest -- a "joke" he told about a woman getting beaten and raped by a gorilla and liking it (!?) is disgusting. I'm wondering why it's only being written about in HuffPo. I am surprised that the MSM has not reported on this -- they are more focused on who can say the N-word with impunity and don't care about violence toward women? Oh wait. Right. The MSM does not care about violence toward women or politicians who joke about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/senator-mccain-isnt-funny_b_113434.html

harbor -- here's what Kirkus Reviews had to say about his first in the series of Bookman mysteries.

"Dunning, twice nominated for the Edgar, deserves to win one for this Denver-cop-turned-bookman tale -- a lively, seductive primer on how to open a bookstore, spot a first edition, warehouse it, price it, and enjoy it for its own sake."

Dunning is a brilliant man...I used to be on some panels with him in Denver and was in awe. He really got screwed on his big novel, Denver, and I worried he'd never write again. (He owned a rare bookshop)

("Denver" was supposed to be given something like the publishing push of the century -- then the book division closed down and it was ignored. It was a wonderful book, too...)

But I believe he had great success with the Bookman series, and if you love mysteries and bookstores -- they are a must read.

Alicia -- McCain has always had a disgusting side to his so-called humor...like his comments about Chelsea Clinton being ugly. I think that "joke" would be getting more coverage if he hadn't thrown it out there so long ago. The odd thing is, that's not the way I first heard it about a hundred years ago. Both "punch lines" were not just sexist, but stupid.

"shrews"

Okay, I said I'd leave when it started, so....

Hmmm...maybe McCain didn't say that "joke" about rape and beating women. No one seems to be able to say for sure that it happened -- and it supposedly happened not last week, but in 1986? Sounds like an urban legend in the making. I asked SNOPES to check into this. Not that I want to defend the guy -- but accuracy is is important when spreading innuendo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/15/sources-recall-mccains-jo_n_112955.html

pats....but then that's what usually happens when a numbskull like mccain TRIES to think of something funny........

I wonder if this might backfire?

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/top_democratic_official_sends.php

Top Dem Party Officials Send Sharply-Worded Email Demanding That Hillary Donors And Supporters Get Behind Obama
By Greg Sargent - July 19, 2008, 12:20PM

Patsi -- McCain does have disgusting "humor." Kinda TailHook-ish. He did say that about Chelsea, and there were comics who also said crappy stuff about Chelsea -- of course they're eating their words now!

The Obamafiles really need to clean up their own ugly comments. Don't be like McCain. No need for that. It only serves to alienate people and it surely doesn't help your cause.

Alicia,

With regard to the McCain gorilla joke, here is the Tucson Citizen newspaper article from 10-27-86.

http://www.rumromanismrebellion.net/images/Tucson_Citizen_gorilla_rape_joke.pdf

The alleged joke was reported by NOW & the Arizona women's political caucus to have occured in March, 1986 at a D.C. conference of the National Legaue of Cities & Towns. The joke was reported as overheard by 2 Arizonans, neither of whom made themseleves avaialable for comment at t the time of the article's publication.

"There will be abortion concessions. The evangelicals are working mightily to change the platform to include reducing the number of abortions. Here's the latest.

[Democratic Convention CEO Lea]Daughtry credited the party for changing the way it talks about abortion -- "not just in terms of a woman's right to make her own health-care choices, but also in terms of our society's responsibility to make sure women have the resources that they need to make appropriate
decisions." Jeralyn Merrit Talkleft comments section
Tony Campolo, a liberal evangelical author and pastor and member of the Democratic platform committee, said he and others hope to move the party toward stronger advocacy for reducing the number of abortions.

He declined to discuss specific proposals, but he mentioned ensuring that pregnant women are able to go on maternity leave without fear of losing their jobs, and making day care more accessible.

"If we are going to win over evangelicals, language that speaks to abortion reduction will be very necessary," Campolo said.

I just don't think the evangelicals as a group belong in the party. As individuals who decide they are willing to overlook our positions they disagree with because they think others they agree with are more important, fine, but as an organizing force, out to imprint their views on our party, they are pure danger.

We should keep religion and morality out of politics. "

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/7/19/112651/680

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-saturday.html#comment-117730

Thanks for that, Patsi! Just had a chance to check back in. I'll look into this series, as well as his Denver novel. They sound good.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25745500/

Ping Pong

Thanks for the picture to correct my impression. Still it is interesting that the only American MSNBC mentions by name is Sen. Obama.

I still get a laugh at their protests that they weren't at all biased.

PICTURE THIS: A folksy, self-consciously plainspoken Southern politician rises to power during a period of profound unrest in America. The nation is facing one of the half-dozen or so of its worst existential crises to date, and the people, once sunny, confident, and striving, are now scared, angry, and disillusioned.

This politician, a ''Professional Common Man,'' executes his rise by relentlessly attacking the liberal media, fancy-talking intellectuals, shiftless progressives, pinkos, promiscuity, and welfare hangers-on, all the while clamoring for a return to traditional values, to love of country, to the pie-scented days of old when things made sense and Americans were indisputably American. He speaks almost entirely in ''noble but slippery abstractions''-Liberty, Freedom, Equality-and people love him, even if they can't fully articulate why without resorting to abstractions themselves.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/12/18/public_enemy/?page=full

just an excerpt from a good synopsis/review about one of my favorite scary books. one which seems befitting the times. i once saw nixon in the role, then shrub; but now with a twist it could be either shrub with an october surprise executive order or it could be our new leader. it can't happen here? sure it could.

Jambalaya

Jo Stafford...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2boHCNfbUD4

Such a great song...

ET

I love Jo Stafford and remember when that crossover hit came out, but it just isn't Hank.

It is amazing how many variations there are on the song

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Jambalaya&search_type=&aq=f

"I wonder if this might backfire?

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/top_democratic_official_sends.php

Top Dem Party Officials Send Sharply-Worded Email Demanding That Hillary Donors And Supporters Get Behind Obama
By Greg Sargent - July 19, 2008, 12:20PM"

Thanks for posting that, Tom.

IMO Mr Fowler, the purported author of the email, is the proverbial snake in the grass. He went through the entire campaign saying he was a Clinton supporter--that is until it was time for him to cast his vote at the Rules Committee meeting.

His disgusting duplicity resulted in me resigning my Yellow Dog membership with the South Carolina Party, and, ultimately, declaring my Independence.

Life is simply too short to put up with his type of chicanery.

what have you got in this world if you don't have
honesty' loyalty and the conviction to stand by your friends through thick and thin
the dnc i guess

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-saturday.html#comment-117612

Speaking of endless poop.

I'll share a story from the frontlines:

So I'm driving around, and stop at a local strip mall for a cheap pack of smokes. Outside of the anchor store, there tables et up and their attendants are accosting people requesting signatures on a petition. Their sign reads "Say NO to big box retailers in our community".

I ask the gentleman:

"Are you aware of the irony of you asking for signatures in oppostion to new retail development outside of a retail development?"

to which he replies:

"Uh, yes..." I continue.

"Do you also realize that this particular retail establishment is allowing you to conduct your operation so that they may maintain their market share of the local retail sector, rather than out of concern for the community?"

To which he replies:

"Well, not as much as they want to do." (Didn't make sense to me, either)

I left him with a rather sanctimonious yet biting parting thought:

"God forbid the sanctity of your precious suburban community is undermined by more retail establishments. One would think that all the mindless upper-middle class residents of the area would appreciate not having to drive so far to engage in their rabid consumerism, but I suppose they would rather fly in and out of more economically depressed areas to do so and let the residents of that area deal with the eyesore, huh?"

to which he replied:

"Uh...."

What can I say? I was feeling somewhat contrarian, and it was hot. I did totally school him, though.

So you belittled someone for exercising their right to peacefully protest. Lovely!

Just as you belittle everyone who post something you don't agree with.

Not to mention promoting the purchase of products that eliminate American jobs. It's a real patriot we have here.

I have just as much a right to challenge his position as he does to assert it. If anything else I gave him an opportunity to develop a rebuttal to my line of logic for future discussions. I didn't punch him in the face or anything.

I fail to see how you could construe my comments as a promotion of products that eliminate American Jobs. If anything, the "Big Box" retailer would create local jobs. And if you would look around the parking lot, Jamie, at least half of the cars were BMWs, Volvos, Mazdas, et cetera. I don't think the viability of the American manufacturing base is of primary concern to them. In their defense, Detroit makes some pretty lousy cars. Besides, we frittered away our manufacturing base years ago. They don't make TVs and computers in the States anymore, if you weren't aware.

That's me: card-carrying, money-hoarding Libertarian. You sure got me pegged.

You are such a benevolent, insightful, and tolerant individual, brah. Wish I could be more like you. Well, you've done me a favor by providing an example towards which to strive. Much obliged.

Aww, you stifled the dissenting opinions of your mother. How sweet. She's so lucky to have you around to tell her what to do. Did you wag your finger whilst you chided her? Always a nice touch.

Good afternoon all

Libraries - I read a lot, and always have. But I keep only a few books. I have the precious old bookcase that belonged to my mother--top shelf novels, second shelf history, third shelf anthropology and Judaica, fourth shelf political science / political philosophy. I also have scattered precious books throughout the house, and in my family room my "pile" of books I need to get to. This pile of books can never be fewer than 10 in number, so I don't go into a panic. I give away most of the new books I purchase ... either to friends and family with instructions to read and pass on or to the local library. Except for reference books and a few old favorites (Jane Austen, the Brontes, Trollope,etc) I find I seldom re-read books.

Do as I say not as I do.

champ: I don't want to interfere with your current discussion, but in reading an earlier post, I felt that you possibly had an incorrect understanding of socialism. Democratic socialism generally refers to government ownership of major industries ... railroads, power plants, and the like ... and it need not lead to tyranny.

There have been a few periods in American history when this type of socialism appealed to the working-class population, but never for long.

Catch me another time maggi and we can go over it, if you feel so inclined. ttyl.

Champ...

I'd have had an answer for you had I been the person sitting outside that retail outlet protesting the incursion of a big box retailer. Many (most) of those big box retailers promote themselves to local government as sources of jobs for the local citizenry, when in fact they do cause the loss of jobs and usually the closure of any smaller, individually owned businesses who carry similar products. They also demand, and usually get, subsidies in the form of our tax dollars - yours and mine - that make it even more difficult for those smaller businesses to compete with them. It's just another way that business has devised to ensure the enrichment of the few at the expense of the many. May I suggest you read David Cay Johnston's Free Lunch? (Thank you, Patsi, for suggesting it to me. It's an important book on an important topic.)

harborwoman: I would be interested to know if Costco uses the same methods as Wal-Mart. I ask because I know that Costco pays a much higher wage, has a better record on health care for their employees and, in general, seems more compatible with other retail outlets.

maggisd...

Did you know that my son works for Costco? Because of his disability, I sat through his orientation with him. As far as I can tell, Costco is a pretty impressive company. They treat both their customers, suppliers, and their workers very well. They don't strong-arm their suppliers in the way that Wal-Mart does and, in fact, seem to bend over backwards to be fair. They have a profit margin percentage they do not exceed when selling merchandise. They work all their employees a minimum of 24 hours per week, because that is what it takes to become eligible for benefits as you get past your probationary period and become a permanent employee. They also indicated that anyone who has been with the company for more than two years would have to do something truly 'bad' (my word, not theirs) before losing their job. And yes, they pay surprisingly well. Starting pay is $11/hour, with automatic raises upon achieving increasing hours of work for Costco. The first raise is $.25/hr after 400 hours...small, but a raise none-the-less.

I don't know if they hold local government up for subsidies, but I'll try to find out. That would not make me happy, as I'm very much opposed to the notion that government should be in the business of subsidizing wealthy business owners...especially those who own sports franchises, a topic no one wants me to get started on. I can feel my blood pressure increasing just thinking about it....

Hmmm...'scuse that 'both'. I went back and added customers to the list of folks Costco treats well, but forgot to eliminate that 'both' from the sentence.

Maggisd...

I've found one source that addresses government subsidies, and indicates that Costco does not take them. It's only a blog, however, so I can't verify is accuracy. I'll keep searching.

http://busmovie.typepad.com/ideoblog/2005/07/costco_vs_walma.html

harborwoman: Happy to hear that your son works at Costco. I have read and heard many fine things about the company. We have several outlets here --. I have read that the CEO of Costco receives a salary of $200,000.00 because he feels that anything more is not warranted.
I am pretty much of the opinion that when people say Big Box store, they really mean Wal Mart.

harborwoman: I would be almost willing to bet that they don't. Wal-Mart had been trying for years to build more outlets in SD county (they recently gave up) and the protests were legion. I have never heard or read of a protest connected with the building of a Costco.

Costco frequently strong-arms local governments to use eminent domain to get desired land for their stores. A serious and egregious misuse of eminent domain.

That said, they treat their employees fairly, don't squeeze their suppliers like Wal-Mart, and don't seem be be a serious threat to local businesses, since they typically compete in big box environments.

frank...

Do you know whether or not Costco seeks and/or accepts local government subsidies for locating a store in their community? I'm not finding anything that indicates they do, but I'm curious.

Eminent domain can certainly be used for ill purposes. It wasn't used in my community, and I wasn't aware that it was used elsewhere.

There was initial resistance by some to Costco coming to my community, but Costco agreed to some differences to the look of their building in order to accommodate those who were opposed.

Oh, and my community did successfully prevent Wal-Mart from building here.

maggisd...

I'm told that Jim Senegal (Costco's CEO) will likely retire in 2 to 3 years. I hope they have another just like him waiting in the wings to take over!

One thing I've noticed is the general demeanor of every Costco employee I've encountered. They really are a happy, hard-working group of people, and they go out of their way to help customers and to help each other.

ET et others - I took the word homgeneous to mean that each separate nation in Europe is homogeneous. The French, bless 'em, seem to more like each other than they are like the Brits and Germans etc.

I've always felt that was the cause of some of our crimes - a national American identity isn't as strong as a national identity is in other nations. The size of other nations is probably relevant, but they have had many centuries to evolve into one nation.

I loved one of the comments made at the time when W was trying to get countries to go into Iraq with us, and so many people were disgusted with the French. One commentator say, "You have to remember, "au contraire" is a French phrase."

I think the quality that most identifies Americans is
to not give up, followed closely by innocent till proven guilty. Other than that, we are more beterogeneous than most other nations, for better or worse.

I don't know - just a thought.

Libraries! What a topic. I, too, have way too many books and am trying to gather the ones I can bear to part with to give to the library. I find that most of mine are murder mysteries since I can't bear to read most other stuff any more. I read for enjoyment only since reading for info makes my brain going and that murders sleep better than Macbeth ever did. Really, I don't even call friends to talk during the week. Really deep conversation does that to me too. Funny, this blog doesn't upset me as much as I love reading the posts - maybe because it is more persoanl than didactic.

KGC - do you ever hit the Copperfield's in Montgomery Village? I have loved that store for years but I'm a little leery re some of the changes they've made. I check out the new books and look to see if the library has them yet. If I can get them pretty quickly there, I will. but some I refuse to wait for. Stephanie Plum is one. The other one is a new book by James Lee Burke.

Has anybody read his books? Fabulous - I can feel the humidity in Louisiana.

I have a few oddball books whose origins are forgotter - one by A E Hotchner re famous people he has known - wonderful stories re Louis Armstrong and Cole Porter.
Another book is by Geroge Seldes - read a long time aago.

Anybody intersted is giving out othe names of mystery writers?

M C Beaton C J Sansom Reginald Hill
Sarah Andrews Nevada Barr Steven Saylor
Stuart Kaminsky Rex Stout & Dorothy Sayers (DUH!)
Lindsay Davis Jefferson Bass Rhys Bowen
Anne Perry - just wrote a sobering 5 book series WWI

Well, that starts me off. I like cozies and English best, I guess. I don't not like protagonists who are crooks or dopers. They are either too sad or not nice (HA! How's that for gooey talk?) Actually the word should be vexatious - vexatious people do indeed vex me and being vexed is not comfortable for me.

Oh, yes, my list in case you don't know all the names from from ancient Rome to modern day, and in sever different countries.

Oh, yes, again, Ellis Peters wrote Cadfael, not Peter Ellis - I 'll bet she got that a lot - two first names!

I'm going to sut up now and go away for a few minutes but shall return to change my subject. You have been warned.

harborwoman,
Costco got their land through eminent domain in two neighboring communities. Nobody was happy about it. The argument was that it would raise local sales and use tax revenues, which it has. Still a misuse of eminent domain, but the real guilty party is the city, not Costco.

There's no evidence that I'm aware of for local government subsidies. That's not to say it's not happening, but I'm not aware of it so I can't say one way or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. It's a public company and their bottom line is the bottom line. But like I said, I'm not aware of any.

frank: In googling Costco and eminent domain it appeared that most of the cases occurred four to five years ago -- and there were not all that many.
None of the outlets in my area would have needed such action ... some were pre-existing outlets of a local, family-owned "membership" store, and the rest were built in new developments.

harborwoman: I certainly hope they do find someone as good as the current CEO. It is my recollection that, while Wal-Mart (for instance) always had the reputation of ruining small-town Main Street businesses, they didn't start their buy-China campaign until old man Walton died.
One of the children lives fairly locally ... in a big old beautiful house in what is otherwise a rather low-income community. He builds yachts. She grows herbs for sale to the local specialty shop.

harborwoman,
My experience is similar. All the employees at the local Costco are friendly, helpful and seem like they are happy to be there. Even the outside contract people who serve the samples are the same way.

There's a SuperTarget (the kind that sells groceries) about 200 yards away. Their employees act like they'd rather have a root canal.

I don't know if the Costco management knows how to hire the right people, or how to treat them right, or both, but clearly they're doing something right.

My god, I do talk a lot, don't I? I'm sorry. I will post this one thing and log off.

When I got home last night, got a look at the whole blog and just had to post my dollar's worth. It was an extremely out-of-body feeling - just sailing along and talking to myself. saying some things that had built up. It was the same feeling I had driving the Pennsy turnpike late one night from Hartford CT tp Columbus Ohio - just cruising and following the curves. Nirvana. When I shut up, my words were down on my screen.

I meant every word, tho. For people who find this place too "un-grown-up", the drive-byers were below what they claimed to be their own standards.

I guess a lot, or all, of them were trolls. Simply amazing. Being insulted is being insulted, whatever name you are insulted under. I thought they were real pains and very very boring last night.

frank: I think it's a whole lot easier to be pleasant to customers when one is paid a decent wage, given sufficient hours, and when there are enough employees to get the job done. That's the real difference, I think, between Target / Wal Mart and Costco ... although to be honest, I haven't shopped at any of those stores literally in years (I get reports from my daughter).

ABC News/Wash. Post withheld results of poll favorable to Obama

http://mediamatters.org/items/200807170011

Good thing for embargoed news.

Whoo boy, yellow jackets can sure put a damper on an evening in a jiffy.

If I'm in the area tomorrow, I'll do some fact-finding and see exactly what they're putting in (or trying to). I assumed a Costco, as the term "Big Box" implies bulk items. I've never seen a "Sam's Club" around here.

Once again, I say "let the market decide". If the citezenry genuinely doesn't want such a retail outlet in their community, it should go out of business very quickly, eh? I remember reading an article about a town in Vermont that successfully drove a Home Depot out of their community simply by not patronizing it, therefore rendering it unprofitable, or not profitable enough by corporate standards. That's putting one's money where one's mouth is. You could probably google it if you so desired. I'd rather go slaughter some yellow-jackets once my endorphins kick in.

Oh, and I'll bet doughnuts to dollars that most of the people that signed that petition will shop at the outlet in question once it's built, if it is.

Al Gore says no to the O
On a related note, Gore said today at Netroots Nation he will not accept a formal role in the next President's Administration

Obama was spinning last Spring when he said he wanted Gore for his cabinet.

The Brandenburg Gate, an iconic symbol of Berlin's reunification, will be 2.5 kilometers (1.5 miles) at the opposite end of a tree-lined boulevard.

It can be photoshopped for the image they wanted.
10 thousand? Better photoshop in a bigger crowd if they want the JFK comparison to live.

I don't really want to argue with you. You're very obtuse; whether inherently or just to be contentious I'm not sure, and I don't really care.

His platitudes need deconstruction. "We are the people we've been waiting for"? Actually, I'm pretty sure we're the people who put all our money in Yahoo and then bought a house to flip and now are hocking everything we have. We're the people China has been waiting for.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-stein18-2008jul18,0,5763715.column

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1-ovictorygoddess.jpg?w=375&h=500

The Onion on Obama's media coverage.
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/time_publishes_definitive_obama

Typical Obama supporter zero sense of humor.
Everyone knows what the Onion is.

As the positive responses to the latest Jib Jab political video - in which Obama is portrayed as living in a fantasy land and gliding around on a unicorn - show, Obama supporters do not mind some scrutiny, so long as it is fair. The question some might ask is: should it be for his supporters to judge what is fair? Surely, like any other candidate, Obama should be subject to scrutiny in whatever form that takes.

It is possible, of course, that Obama supporters are also afraid that too close an examination may reveal some flaws and weaknesses. But if his supporters believe so strongly in him, they should also believe that he can withstand criticism.

One thing is for sure. Obama supporters are making themselves clear: criticise him, but do so at your peril.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/17/barackobama.comedy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

Lacking in facts and humor.

Will you be laughing six months after Obama takes office? It would be pathetic if the O didn't win. Why does he feel a need to sell out?

Legalities
Life, Politics and the Law From ABC News Correspondent Jan Crawford Greenburg

Jan Crawford Greenburg is a correspondent for ABC News' bureau in Washington DC. She covers politics, the Supreme Court and provides legal analysis for ABC News. She is a graduate of the University of Chicago's law school and is a member of the New York bar.

« Main | Obama revisits abortion »

Obama: Sounding Like Thomas and Scalia?
July 04, 2008 12:34 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/legalities/2008/07/obama-sounding.html

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/open-thread-saturday.html#comment-117711

Patsi:

Your "Minnie post" is my favorite of the day!!

My library is extensive...is there a "recovery book" I don't have? I doubt it...but the recovery eludes me still... :))

Barack Born in 2 Hospitals, Sister Maya Born Twice!

"We already know that reports and biographical references cite two different Honolulu hospitals as Obama’s place of birth.

First, there is a story in this 2004 newsletter from the Education Laboratory School at the Univ. of Hawaii. It begins: “Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 at the Queen’s Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii…”

But Ms. Soertoro-Ng told the Honolulu Star Bulletin in Feb. 2008:

“He was born in Kapiolani Medical Center for Women & Children, two blocks up from where our grandmother still resides…

Well, it can’t be both. They are 2 separate places now, and were two separate places in 1961. So which hospital is it? Or was Obama born someplace else all together?

Recent calls to both hospitals to get confirmation of Obama’s birth led nowhere.

Of course, this information would also be on his original birth certificate, which he still hasn’t released ... "

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/in-which-hospital-was-obama-born-pt-2/

I can't think of an instance when I would ever support subsidies. I'm sure someone could come up with an example to which I could concede their utility, but none come to mind off-hand.

I dig your investigative spirit, though, HW; way to go.

I don't support subsidies either, champ...obviously. And I'm trying really, really hard not to go on a tirade about sports stadiums/taxpayer funded playgrounds for the uber-wealthy...somebody restrain me!!! Oh, God...that made me think of the taxpayer subsidized golf course in Oregon that only the ultra-rich can afford and that they often fly in to play...aaaggghhh....

Yeah, I hate that shit, too.

You in Oregon? Was thinkin' about moving there. It's real far away, though

Very heavily subsidized...but most locals will never see the place, let alone play there....

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/

I'm in Washington, champ, but I really like Oregon. Both states are incredibly beautiful. Where are you?

Filthadelphia

...Seems like the ideal environment for me, besides Hawaii, which is even further away. All my family is on this side of the rock, though.

Well, you should check the Pacific Northwest out...and Hawaii, if you think you'd like living in a place you can only leave by plane or boat. If you moved, your family would have a fabulous place to visit.

I've been to Hawaii. Most amazing place, beyond my imagination. I am planning to visit a friend in Portland before the summer is through. Think I'll give her a call...

No answer... Yeah, have some funny stories about Hawaii, but I don't want to divulge too much of my personal life on here. Maybe we can discuss the PN more in the future. I'm gonna hit the hay. Have a good evening.

You, too. Goodnight, champ.

Hi Patsi, where ever you are,

I hope you know that I wasn't taking sides when I responded to champs comment that venting on blogs is better than venting to family. I just
meant that comment very generally. I like to vent on blogs, too.

However, I know that some people on this blog are instigators and seem to thrive on mean conflict. You are not one of those people, in my opinion. I sympathize with you, nearly always, and feel you are often at the mercy of gang attacks.

One example of this is that early in the morning, you, me, Alicia, Chloe lots
of others can exchange friendly banter and the atmosphere seems calm,
then suddenly someone logs on and gets everyone upset. It gets toxic.

I only say this because I've been the victim of silly, juvenile attacks by those
anonymous posters on this site, too.

Anyway, enough of my opinions. Now, I will await the onslaught of gunfire from those who don't like what I just wrote.

Marcia -- glad I checked in....no, I certainly didn't think you were taking any shots!

And maybe it's safe to come back now...I promised myself that I'd sign off at the first bit of name-calling today....and did.

I do get too pissed off at the attack mode and then I get even worse with my own fire...I know that.

Garth Brooks once told a journalist that if he was ever attacked in a back alley, there was one person -- male or female -- that he wanted with him...and it was me. So I guess my junk yard dog tendencies precede me...ha

prof marcia
Hey all you morning people!! Its nice i sit here with my iced tea and TM in the morning.Patsi has me laughing sometimes so early i don't know if its the laughs or the tea that wakes me up and gets me ready for the day?Ha.You guys are so much better than the Orlando Sentinel.I get so much great info and reading from you all!!Thanks....Chloe nice to see you posting this morning it made me smile.......

Hey, sturg!

You in Cristobal's path? Wherever you are, stay safe!

harbor -- I knew Free Lunch was your kind of book!

One thought -- the last few minutes of One Night At McCool's are some of the funniest movie moments I've ever watched....

Absolutely, Patsi! I may have to buy a copy, so I can reread parts of it from time to time and remind myself just how pissed off I am that our politicians have so befouled our system of government. Excellent read, but it does get the blood pressure jacked up.

Off to watch part of The Tudors...have waited ages to get it from the library....

patsi'' who's help would you want in that back alley
barack or hillary
i can see barack going squeling off into the night
hillary would smile and say lets get it on

A link to find out how solvent your bank is.

I still have an account in NY. But I had to research it so that I could put the correct location into this. It used to be called Marine Midland, as it was from Upstate NY and had to do with shipping, and was taken over by The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC), and it's not located in NY like it mostly says but in Delaware.

http://www.bankrate.com/gookeyword/safesound/ss_home.asp

Good luck, & I hope your bank's solvent or you'll have a very lumpy mattress.

tt

It is 8:10 am here and I am off to a Medieval Breakfast in Ghent as part of the Gentse Feest

The Ghent Festival - Gentse Feesten
Mark you calendar for the largest cultural and popular festival in Europe
By James Martin, About.com

http://goeurope.about.com/od/ghent/a/ghent_festival.htm

Ghent Festival Highlights:

When and Where: Ghent - Belgium, 19 - 28 July 2008
1.5 million people attended the Ghent Festival last year - making it the largest open air cultural and popular festival in Europe.
In 2005, the Ghent Festival was 162 years old, and consisted of 4 festivals going on at once in the center of Ghent: the Blue Note Festival (jazz), the International Street Theatre Festival, the International Puppetbuskersfestival and the 10th anniversary edition of the dance festival 10 Days Off."

It's a fun event, but far too many people for me to handle. I was hoping Mauro would be here this year so we could go together... but he is back in Italy. Nonetheless, the breakfast is not to be missed... Trapiest (heavy beer) in stone goblets, traditional medieval bread and also ham and cheese (other things too). It's not to be missed.

Tomorrow I ride on the annual ship up the canal almost to the Netherlands and back. It's lovely.

If you have MySpace, look at my profile http://www.myspace.com/eurotom and check MY PHOTOS and the album: 21 July 2007 - Festival of Ghent 2 hour Annual boat tour of canal.

Cheerio...

Oh I almost snorted coffee in my nose after reading "let the market decide"
LOL...

Harborwoman - I'n glad you get my 'jokes' - I do try to be funny mostly because I much prefer to laugh rather than cry. I've cried way too much in my life - in my opinion - and will avoid it if I can.

I also try to be funny in order to let any poor reader know that I don't tale myself so seriously that I expect him/her to agree with me or think I'm cool.

I don't make up my mind until I have to and so enjoy other people's take on things. The only favorites I can name are Joe Montana and Luciano Pavarotti - and the color red, but I love green and my favorite gem stones tend to be blue. See what I mean?

I love being able to say what I think, and I know if I slam someone else, I will lose out on what that person would say to me if I had not opened my yap. Why would I want to do that when I love the conversation?

I'm not surewhich unknown poster you were referring to that made some good points last night, or were you saying an established poster made some good points?

I don't recall the drive-bys or 'trolls' as making any good
points. The only two points I recall really were
#1. If you use your real name or identify yourself, you get insulted.
#2. The conversation here is so childish - never seen such un-grown-up conversation in my life, or to that effect.

You and others might agree with that, and I think the person who wrote it is probably a troll who has been wanting to say it for a while. Maybe not.

But I don't agree with either of those points. The second one completely invalidates itself when it begs the question, why are you posting here then and reading it? Why don't you just leave? The answer is I want to leave some kind of insult to show these people I don't like them. That to me is more childish than the rest of the conversation.

Then again, that's just me. I don't want to insult anyone but I do want to get something out of what I read - that's it. Calling this blog chiildish has no meaning at all - it's an empty phrase.

#2. As for people being insulted if their identity is known doesn't work for me either. For one thing the insult is going to come if you are insulting (not you you, the other you ha!). That is a given. The way to not be insulted is to NOT INSULT. I've disagreed with a lot of posts here and have not been insulted - well, to my face, and behind my back, that's almost cause for a party.

I don't know how long I can get away with not being insulted, but I'm gonna try, by god, I'll try - I'll go out and make it or steal it or take it or die..............

Sorry, I got carried away there.

Anyway, I don't care who writes on the back channel or why or if they still post here. I do agree there are instigators but they are pretty obvious so I watch their antics but.....

So Harborwoman, I hope I have....what....answered your post? just blabbed away? I don't know if we even disagreed about anything. I think I just wanted to explain myself better.

One thing I hate is to be mis-understood, and think I have been mis-understood almost every second of my life - it is very painful to me when people mis-inderstand me. I will never intentionally insult or try to injure anyone on this blog. If I should accidentally, please tell me. I won't plead for forgiveness or grovel but I will apologize and try to mkae it right. I think I'm pretty simple, really. I like to think, and talk about what I'm thinking, or considering thinking, and hearing the same from others.

The drive-bys and trolls get in the way, I think, like
The man I yesterday saw on the stairs
Who wasn't there And he wasn't there again today.
Gee, I wish he'd go away.

That's pretty bad, I know, but it comes to mind everytime I put the words 'go away' together, and that's how I feel about those extras last night. Gee, I wish they'd go away.

I will now go away - promise... for tonight.

nobody left on here but the euro-trash ?

nobody left on here but the euro-trash ?

Posted by: mqw | July 20, 2008 3:43 AM

How terribly childish.

NEW THREAD

Tom,
I think you're too kind when you call that kind of state childish.
Rude would be a better description. Rude and downright mean.

Children are much kinder than some people that are dismissed as childish.

"The way to not be insulted is to NOT INSULT". boop

Bethy,
I agree with your post.
But the one line above, I've found, is not always true.
Glad it is in your case though.
Love reading your posts.