Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Sniper

Craig,

Considering that the American public is more willing to watch a show like Wipeout, where people are hit in the groin, or get punched in the face, or bounce in the mud instead of taking a minute to really learn about candidates.

The fact that Obama is having to whore himself to the Christian right or Scalia assents, tells us the shit's creak we are already battling in the country...paddles or no paddles

Now lets try a coherent thought.

So long as McCain and the RNC can keep the focus on Obama as an individual, they will have a chance to win the election. If the focus of the campaign falls on McCain or the issues, McCain loses by a landslide.

Unfortunately, that sets us up for the most annoying election season of our lifetimes.

It's not annoying if you ignore it.

If it's on issues McC loses in a landslide? It seems to me that the evil OHbama changes his stance on any "issue" as it pops up and in the direction of how the wind blows on that particular day.

McC is far from perfect but if people were intelligent enough before they vote to really care about the issues, then they should be scared to death about (everything) related to the empty suit Ohbama.

His stance is "change" and "hope". Sadly and embarassingly that seems to be enough for a lot of thin minded people in this country.

Good TM & good hair, as usual.

Craig, do you have a flag? ;-)

tt

from last thread:

"Turns out you baby boomers were full of s--t. . ."
posted by champ

Just for your information, Obama is a baby boomer, even though he likes to pretend he's about 25.

Boomer birth years: 1946-1964

Hey Jamie,

When you log on--just want to thank you for the great sneaky snake link!! I love it.

I'm trying to decide who else has earned that title.

BJ,

I say that only because McCain is in the position that HRC was in...the experience position. He is supposed to have better command of the issues and the media gives him a pass whenever he changes his position with the political winds.

Even though people see that McCain is a hero and has all the experience, he can only manage a tie right now. As the economy and Afghanistan become bigger issues, they will work against McCain.

Bush's economy is a mess. Many on Wall Street won't mind their taxes going up if it will help.

Afghanistan will be a huge issue since it's getting steadily worse there. Even with Iraq improving, the fact that the Taliban, the group who sheltered Bin Laden, have been allowed to regain their pre 9/11 strength is nothing but an embarrassment to Bush and since McCain hitched his wagon to him, it hurts him as well...

That is, if common sense prevails...and that's asking a lot from this electorate.

Why is BO hiding the hard copy BC and COLB? The net COLBs were photoshopped.

Craig,

In reference to your video--I believe one of the reasons Obama is over
zealous about proclaiming his Christianity is partly because of the Reverend Wright debacle. All that Black Liberation philosophy makes average folks in
Ohio nervous.

Well done video, Craig, as usual. What I'm concerned about in all of these defenses is that progressives, including myself, will lose faith (no pun intended) in the statements and the policy implications of Obama's oratory defenses. The move to the center and beyond is happening very quickly. And, we've got to remember there are still two steps to the presidency -- the first is in August in Denver and then the second step in November. I hope the winner of the primaries doesn't lose his supporters and delegates in August much less in November. Turning off the left to win the center and the right before the conventions is a very risky strategy for Senator Obama, IMHO. I hope his advisors know what they're doing!

I could care less about that church...they don't represent any brand of Christianity that I would practice. That being said, God forbid that a group of black folks who are sick and tired of the shit sandwich they got from the country at large, decide to speak out against it.

It's ironic that the biggest fear in South Africa when Mandella became President was that he would lead the ANC's retribution for apartheid. He basically did the opposite and that's why that country flourished while a place like Zimbabwe has plunged into chaos because of those policies.

I bring this up because what the black community wants is an apology for what was done to them and a truly level playing field so that there is true opportunity for economic advancement. If you continue to deprive people of it, don't be shocked when they start talking about taking it...

I don't think it's a coincidence that in Memphis, you still hear people saying "I am a man"

Obama's move to the middle is very predictable. They all head for the middle and then do what they're gonna do when they're elected.

And that's politics.

tt

Obama's "move to the middle" leaves us with really no good reason to nominate him..

Experience..No
Courage..No
New Politics..No,that was a sham

Wake up fellow Democrats..We need to win this election with someone who is ready on day one to be President..Senator Hillary Clinton

"(3) The GOP doesn't believe Obama or McCain will be the nominees -- and that Hillary Clinton has something up her sleeves to pull off a Denver upset, while McCain is ousted in the previously mentioned palace coup."

http://hillbuzz.blogspot.com/2008/07/something-really-fishy-is-happening.html

OD,

How can you be ready to lead on day one when you can't manage a successful campaign when you enter it with a 2 to 1 money advantage and you're polling far better than any opponent?

I have said time and time again that I knew in 2006 that HRC would not win the nomination. She spent $36 million to run for Senate reelection. Clinton spent $36 million for her reelection, more than any other candidate for Senate in the 2006 elections. "She was criticized by some Democrats for spending too much in a one-sided contest, while some supporters were concerned she did not leave more funds for a potential presidential bid in 2008.[230] In the following months she transferred $10 million of her Senate funds toward her presidential campaign.[231]"

She and McCain may be great policy people but they appear to be poor managers. Both had money issues with their campaigns. Obama may be new to the scene but he didn't run out of money, he had a better plan that he executed successfully.

I don't care that he lacks political experience because I think he's demonstrated that he has practical experience and it's my opinion that practical will be more important.

GORDO.

#1 would seem the most plausible when you consider that every bit of favorable spin of McCain's lineup change is that the new guy worked for Cheney and is a fighter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes_main.html?nav=slate

For some reason, Marcia, it seems you are under the mistaken impression that I am an Obama supporter. I voted for him in the primary, just to do my small part to keep the Clintons out of the White House, into which they will weasel their way , regardless.

I've done nothing but criticize Obama since he secured the nomination.
I'm all about Ron Paul. Write that down.

I stand by my previous assertion about baby boomers. Country Joe still keeps it real, though. Unless he's dead. He was still keeping it real the last I heard from him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0jxHB3E710

"bring this up because what the black community wants is an apology for what was done to them and a truly level playing field so that there is true opportunity for economic advancement. If you continue to deprive people of it, don't be shocked when they start talking about taking it...

I don't think it's a coincidence that in Memphis, you still hear people saying "I am a man"

Bear -- your money quote is "I am a man".....

I'd like an apology for every woman who has been beaten, molested, raped, mutilated, murdered, sold, and owned since human beings started emerging from primordial slime. And I'd like the perps prosecuted instead of being sent home "to sin no more" and a level economic playing field.

As Ms. B so often says, "I'm just sayin'...."

I couldn't get onto the internet last night. We had thunderstorms here yesterday afternoon. I don't think I missed much. I am now off work until the 20th. Send money. LOL!

"Selling out sometime? Okay. Selling out all the time? Not."

HuffPo tackles the issue: Is Barack selling out?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080702/cm_huffpost/110411;_ylt=AuvPvy8q.ePyAfj_wGIDxGSs0NUE

Hello champ,

Now, that you mention it, I do recall you emailing me Ron Paul links.

Well. in my defense, you did support Obama in the primary, so I'm not that
far off base. You have to admit, it's difficult to keep track of who everyone is
supporting, since many of Craig's bloggers have changed throughout
the process.

There are the stanch Obama idealists who would vote for Obama
no matter what. Then, there are those who voted for Obama in the primary but are already disillusioned and are now for Ron Paul or Ralph Nadar. Then, there are the people who voted for Hillary, but are now Obama fans. Or those who are undecided, still. There are those Dems who have gone completely to the otherside and are actively working for McCain. And there's my group, those PUMA folks who have disdain for the DNC, the media & Obama so we aren't voting for anyone, maybe we'll write in Hillary or perhaps some of us will consider McCain.

I try to keep track, but it makes me dizzy sometimes.

The question we need to ask is will Obama turn out to be your version of Neville Chamberlain ??

Chamberlain was a patriot to. But he took the wrong path in dealing with Hitler.

He came back and said, "We will have peace in our time" and tens of millions died.

VJ Machiavelli
http://www.vjmachiavelli.blogspot.com
ps.This election is all about shoes, yes shoes do we keep them on or do we take them off and never put them on again when we board a plane. it's that simple. On shoes or off shoes

McCain.

Here’s the question :

If he has all this experience ( It’s his second trip through the presidential ringer)
Why has his organization fallin’ on it;s ass twice ? This is not the mark of a “Plucky Fighter” .... It’s the mark of a man who can’t even run something he learned 8 years ago.

And if he can't run that. How can he run the greatest mess ever created by the mind of man ?
IE : The federal government.

On the other hand, how can a "phony" smash the money machine that grips our process ... with no "experience ".

Defeat the one of the two great political dynasties of the last quarter century.

Gee ...
Sounds like the great "American Story" is running for president.
No "Phony" has ever come from a single parent house-hold, with a mixed race background, got into Harvard, ( On scholarships) Graduated at the top of his class, Turned down Wall Street , and gone to the green pastures just north of Gary, Indiana.

Yep, he's out foxed us all.

"Rising up out of the mash potatoes and gravy"

" has ever come from a single parent house-hold"

How long was his mother a single parent? When did she dump him on her parents? How did they afford private schools if they were such poverty cases?

I was a single mother....doesn't sound like my world.

Maybe Obama can out think Osama ?

What's what wins the battle ... One never defeats one's opponent
One out thinks one's opponent.

"Rising up out of the mash potatoes and gravy"

I still read and hear over and over the "what's the matter with those damned women" meme re: some women who aren't coming "back to the fold."

Here's a straight ahead message from a Salon reader:

"I'm thoroughly, overwhelmingly sick of being told that I have to be a good little girl and vote Democratic because if I don't those nasty, nasty Republican men will take away my right to have an abortion. Meanwhile, Democrats across the nation are letting the Republicans strip away our right to choose to have an abortion because they are so afraid of being voted out of office by a middle that is ambivalent about abortion. Stop trying to conflate the sexism with whether or not we will vote for Obama. Sexism against Clinton is a separate issue from whether people who did not vote for Obama in the primaries will do so in the GE. Don't simply dismiss it because you think it doesn't matter - it matters no matter who you support in the GE. It matters no matter what happens in the GE. It Matters because sexism is wrong and needs to be addressed, irrelevant of it's impact on the election."

"I still read and hear over and over the "what's the matter with those damned
women" meme re: some women who aren't coming "back to the fold."

posted by Patsi

Invalidated and patronized by our own party.

Oh, Flatus -- when you are up and around. After reading about those pilots taken hostage in Columbia, I see why my aunt was so upset the whole time my cousin (the Navy pilot) was flying drug surveillance around Central America and in the Gulf of Mexico!

prof m: "it's difficult to keep track of who everyone is
supporting"
what's with all this name-tags requirement lately? some people just don't fit into or want to be made to fit into someone else's idea of reality.
the changing flow of thoughts from unknown springs of wisdom make for the beauty of craig's blog, eerially mysterious in its way.

Glenn Greenwald fisks the Obama response on FISA

Wednesday July 2, 2008 12:31 EDT
Obama advisor Greg Craig: Adding insult to injury

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/02/obama_fisa/index.html

And even Kos has some harsh words re: FISA:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/1/05546/22532/562/544544

Obama’s latest ad repeats an often-stated claim, saying he "worked his way through college and Harvard Law.”
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_work_claim.html

Actually I was always much more interested in how he paid for for his alleged cocaine and marijuana use when he was a teenage in Hawaii? Oh just another great mystery of life.

A Denver upset with Hil'ry as the nom: From your keyboard to God's monitor. Keep hope alive; Hil'ry '08!
(No flaming tildes of sarcasm. I am praying that she manages to get into the WH.)

Happy 4th!

When will the DNC realize that letting BO copy off of Hil'ry's test paper will not win over those of us who want the best person (and not the best impersonator) in the WH?

Patsi,

Your post about your cousin flying drug surveillance made me think of someone who I haven't thought of in sometime.

DEA agent Meredith Thompson, who was killed in a plane crash, 1994, during a reconnaissance mission near Santa Lucia, Peru.

John Ridley on MSNBC just claimed McCain's being in Columbia was no accident and that it belied that idea the US does not negotiation with terrorists.

MSNBC seems to be taking very seriously the idea of being the FOX news of the left.

Ok Craig. I know you were just pointing out how silly that sleeper cell idea is. The belief among some, if I'm understanding that rumor correctly, that he's a figurehead of some kind of sleeper cell. You ask, if someone wanted to do this, why would they do it with someone of mixed race named Obama. Why not McCain.

If the 'sleeper cell' theory were (somewhat) true, then I think choosing Obama makes perfect sense. Those behind the idea (would) want to win. They want someone who is malleable. Someone who has the ability to mesmerize the people. Someone who can attract the groups that are absolutely essential in order to win. This would have been perfectly planned and executed. And the key players would have been in place early on.

"A clandestine cell structure is a method for organizing a group in such a way that it can more effectively resist penetration by an opposing organization."

If they haven't done that, what have they done.

MSNBC seems to be taking very seriously the idea of being the FOX news of the left.

MSNBC as a whole is listed as #33 in the cable ratings. If that is the case, and FOX has the Right in their corner, where else can MSNBC go? They have pretty much painted themselves into the Left's corner.

Colombia, South America

Columbia, South Carolina

Colombia, South America

Columbia, South Carolina

Is the question which one has more terroists and people being held hostage :)

Patsi, Fry,

Back in the middle '70s I was the AF intelligence superintendent for Latin America. It was the most interesting job of my career. 'nuff said.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/clark-wins-vp-madness-for-dems.html#comment-110147

Bethyboo,
You hit another home run last night. Your post said it all.
.........................

"For some reason, I have trouble compromising all those false ideals I was taught throughout childhood and adolescence and it's causing me internal conflict. " Posted by: champ | July 2, 2008 11:12 PM

Champ, well said. I get your point.

The best new term of season so far :

"Low information voters"

Didn't we used to these guys "Stupid people" ?

The best new term of season so far :

"Low information voters"

Didn't we used to call these guys "Stupid people" ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
down here in SC we called them republicans.

We also had a "Spare Obama".

Maybe A little birdie told him to go to Colmbia at this time. But timing is everything and the new GAllup poll show the race getting closer. What happen to Obama 10 to 15 point lead. Obama is change his postions so fast the media can't keep up with him. If he keeps this up Their might be a revolution he Denver if McCain gains the lead and pulls ahead.

VJ Machiavelli
http://www.vjmachiavelli.blogspot.com
ps.This election is all about shoes, yes shoes do we keep them on or do we take them off and never put them on again when we board a plane. it's that simple. On shoes or off shoes

"Low information voters"
Didn't we used to these guys "Stupid people" ?
Posted by: Dutton Peabody | July 3, 2008 8:31 AM

Dutton, I agree with the 'low information' but not with the stupid people.

It may be easy to get information, but it sure is difficult to get the truth.

I'll tell you what, Lynn, Sturg, I'm in Columbia. Lynn's comment is not so far off. We are the home of the terminally stupid.

Last month we had the run-off Democratic primary for County Clerk. Because of no Republican participation, the winning Democrat in the primary was elected to the office.

Despite the strongest endorsement possible for one candidate, the incumbent who had held the job for years; and, rejection of the other candidate as being totally unqualified for the job, which is basically technical and quite important for the smooth running of the county government, guess who the voters chose?

Yes, they chose the woefully unqualified one.

This article is in this morning's The State newspaper:
http://www.thestate.com/local/story/450853.html

I believe the election was a predictable result of the climate that was generated in South Carolina in the period leading up to, and following, the presidential primary.

Damned shame.

If that is the case, and FOX has the Right in their corner, where else can MSNBC go? They have pretty much painted themselves into the Left's corner. Posted by: FryDaddy

Fox is no where near as slanted as MSNBC. (IMHO)

One conspiracy theory is that the public, by a combination of methods, has been conditioned to reject the idea of conspiracies.

The First Declaration of Independence
What de Bolla calls "the intricate history of the nation's founding document" does not and should not inhibit Americans from asserting the truth that their nation originated on July 4, 1776. They hold that to be a self-evident truth, which means they have decided to believe it, thereby making it a self-validating tradition. So there.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/the_first_declaration_of_indepe.html

One conspiracy theory is that the public, by a combination of methods, has been conditioned to reject the idea of conspiracies. Posted by: GORDO | July 3, 2008 8:50 AM

Gordo,
And called "conspiracy theorists" if we don't reject the idea of conspiracies. And they always mean that in a negative way.

Before moving to Charlotte, NC, I use to live in Columbia, SC for 4 years. If not the hottest place on earth it has to come in a close second. USC football, Sandy's Hotdogs, Lizard's Thicket, Maurice's Piggy Park BBQ, Lake Murray, and gas is a good 10 cents a gallon cheaper there than in NC. I love Columbia, SC.

Chole,
"Fox is no where near as slanted as MSNBC. (IMHO)"

Fox's news department is very fair, even the major Ds will admit ti that fact. The other shows are what they are.

PLUS Columbia, SC has the second largest St. Patrick's Day celebration in the South. Savannah, GA is #1.

harbor and i have been batting around Southern Fried + 6 lately, a book of short stories about Columbia SC by wm price fox......but the HEAT of Columbia is a recurring facet of those stories.....just the ungodly heat of that place....

mornin' all.

patd - the only thing people are asking of others wrt the name issue is that they take and stick with a name that others here will recognize. Some here use their real full names, some use their real first name, some use an alias, but as long as they are consistent, at least we get to know them and know when they're posting. The big gripe here has been the use of "anonymous" since anyone can use that and there can be numerous folks posting under that moniker, or single use drive-by aliases, although they can be entertaining.

Columbia - oh, that reminds me, my Canadian friends' daughter goes to Columbia, is trying to make either the Cannadian of US Olympic team. Wonder if she met McNN there?

Nick, that was a GREAT find.

For those who don't know The Guardian, it is probably the most honest of Great Britain's fine old newspapers. To my knowledge it is the only one not controlled by major business interests.

When I was a youngster, The Manchester Guardian was a definitive source for timely, accurate reflections of British thought.

Dog, you can imagine our electric bill, too! I'm glad you had a good visit. Here, Stinky and I have planted many trees hoping to make the heat less onerous--it seems to work. And, we have large picture windows overlooking our woods. So, if we are in our bedroom, breakfast room or the main get-together room (I've always though 'great room' sounded pretentious, so I don't use the term. Anyone have a good alternative? Family room doesn't seem to fit. Living room is really close for this transplant, but has a somewhat different meaning in the Old South.) so we feel as if we are outdoors even though we're not. Oh, and we have microphones that pick-up the sounds of nature and pipe them into the house so it sounds just as if the windows were open on a nice Spring day.

Dog, I went to an Eastern prep school that was somewhat enlightened.

sturgeone,

wm price fox, knew what he was writing about. Columbia sits in a sort of bowl where there is little air flow to move the heat, plus what really makes it bad is the humidity. I think that is why the US Army made Ft. Jackson a training facility. A typical Columbia weather report during the summer, Today's hi will be 95, with 95% humidity. Myself and a SLED agent coined a term for the women folk of Columbia, "The Classic Columbia Look". This was back in the early to mid 80's, a good number of the female population at that time all looked alike, all dressed alike, all wore the same jewelry, had the same hairstyle, make-up. Sort of reminded me of something out of the Stepford Wives. It is the only place I have ever witnessed women shopping at the local food markets dressed as thought they were getting ready to go out on the town. The other thing about Columbia is the median age has to be somewhere about 31.

OK I just heard about this on C-span, this is Obama's answer to THE internet smears challenging his birth-and it ties in with Craig's topic

http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert

Nick, that was a GREAT find.

For those who don't know The Guardian, it is probably the most honest of Great Britain's fine old newspapers. To my knowledge it is the only one not controlled by major business interests.

Posted by: Flatus | July 3, 2008 9:13 AM

I agree ! The article was terrific. Funny thing is, the leftists who used these tactics will not see the irony of what they have done. Sadly, it IS done, so we are basically left with Obama or McCain. I'm voting for Obama... McCain doesn't deserve my vote.

Kathy,

This is what I said the other day. BHO was born in Hawaii, a sate of the US, his mother was a US citizen, so BHO is a US citizen. This is not rocket science.

Kathy, the certificate is at the heart of Gordo's angst. He claims it doesn't meet the criteria for normally issued certificates. The questions would be satisfied if the registrar of births would prepare a statement saying "yes, indeed, Mr Obama was indeed born in this great state".

Doing a little catch up. According to the College Board, tuition in an in-state 4 year college averages just south of $12,000 per year, with Private colleges averaging about $27,700. The $6K figure in Patsi's link from last night came from the Higher Education Coordinating Board of Washington State, and here's the link.

http://www.hecb.wa.gov/paying/collegecosts/collegecostsindex.asp

College in WA is cheap.

Pogo
I find totally different numbers

Public 4 year college 2005-06
Tuition(in state) $5351
total + room and board, $12108

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_320.asp

Jack

Dog, I was fixing to make some bean soup yesterday. Stinky pulled a out a couple of the bones from the barbecue that we had frozen. Decided not to use them because the smoke flavor would have overshadowed the delicate bean flavor that I look for in a good soup.

Next time, I'll try to give more notice.

And, your backyard sounds great!

BTW
The link I posted above also give a state by state break down of college costs.
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d06/tables/dt06_320.asp

Jack

Re: the Obama BC, If you'll note on it, you can see a faint bleed through of what appears to be a stamp that was on the back of it - probably the date the certificate was issued. It says (in reverse) June 6, 2007. Although I can't see any evidence of a raised seal - I'm not sure you could see it in this type image anyway - it looks pretty much like what an official one would look like once it was imaged and published on the internets. I don't know about you guys, (except for you Gordo, and I know where you stand on the issue) but this is good enough for me to put this non issue to bed. Like I've said, if anyone suggests he was born anywhere other than Honolulu on 8/4/61, why hasn't anyone come up with any evidence to suggest that?

Now the FISA reversal - that's worth talking about.

Ah! Our son-in-law just called reporting that our daughter made it through her disc surgery in fine shape with no complications, etc. She'll spend the night in the hospital and then come here so that Stinky can minister to her. I'm much relieved.

Re: Birth certificate- I think everyone here save one knows the deal about this.

Jose Antonio Vargas has been deflecting internet rumors for the past hour on c-span-

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When I can't fall asleep at night I listen to WBZ in Boston- usually I liek the host but last night was a sub- he would not let of the Renee Marie story! It was amazing- he was so clearly trying to get people to say her rendition=Obama=black takeover of America. People were not biting. If I had not been 90% asleep I would have called-

Amazing that this is trying to be made an issue- and all I could think was is Hillary, or Michelle, or Theresa has half million in monthly credit cards that would have been all we heard-

It will be interesting if that story becomes bigger- esp. in light of :who would you rather have a beer with" and all that being so important to many

Pogo, Gordo said that when someone took the image of the certificate apart, the seal was layered onto the certificate. That, raised additional concerns.

the birth certificate, like the michelle whitey tape is just something Gordo uses to keep his hand in while waiting for something real.......

(I tried to keep this post as brief as possible.)

The Obama site is misleading. Where is the proof that he was born in the US. His father was not a US citizen. This is why BO's BC info is important.
==================================
"There's only one way for Obama to show he's a natural born citizen eligible to be President: produce the paper proof. If there's a seal and a signature, no problem, he qualifies.

Whether from popular pressure or a legal challenge to his credentials, it is essential that Obama be forced to release for objective analysis the birth certificate he claimed in own book to possess."

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12944.htm
==================================
"All persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States ... One of the most complicated areas of US citizenship law involves the passage of citizenship to children born outside the US to one or more US citizen parents. ... there is one important office that only natural born citizens can hold – the presidency ...

What are the rules for people born between December 23, 1952 and November 13, 1986?

When one parent was a US citizen and the other a foreign national, the US citizen parent must have resided in the US for a total of 10 years prior to the birth of the child, with five of the years after the age of 14."

http://www.visalaw.com/05jan1/2jan105.html
==================================
"Because Barack's mother -- born November 29, 1942 -- bore him at the age of 18 years, eight months plus, she could not possibly qualify for the five year requirement."

From the first link.

Back in the middle '70s I was the AF intelligence superintendent for Latin America. It was the most interesting job of my career. 'nuff said.
Posted by: Flatus | July 3, 2008 8:27 AM

now that we know, does he have to kill us?

Pogo, "name-tags" referred to mandating disclosure of whom a crawdad supports. sorry for the mis-read.

Patsi- saw you posted this:

How long was his mother a single parent? When did she dump him on her parents? How did they afford private schools if they were such poverty cases?

I was a single mother....doesn't sound like my world.

Posted by: Patsi Author Profile Page | July 3, 2008 6:22 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not sure on all of it, but I know that Barack was a scholarship student in Hawaii- I attended a private college with almost full assistance due to my family income- but a public one would cost more.

AI don't think this is so unusual. Remember that Bill Clinton was raised by his grands from the age of 1-3

Flatus: "Back in the middle '70s I was the AF intelligence superintendent for Latin America. It was the most interesting job of my career"

I'll bet! What a tangle of events you must have witnessed.

Pogo,

"he was born anywhere other than Honolulu on 8/4/61, why hasn't anyone come up with any evidence to suggest that?"

Actually that wasn't Gordo's position. Gordo's take had to do with BHO's mother being married to a foreign national, and because she gave birth to little BHO just short of the so called minimum 5 year requirement. Now that may hold water, no pun intended, if BHO's mother had been residing outside the us for more than 5 years, married a foreign national, became pregnant and had a baby. But I don't know of any birth taking place within the US, by a US citizen where the child born would not be considered a US citizen. That just can't happen.

Jack, it obviously varies some from source to source - I suspect that the figures I extracted from the College Board I mentioned above included room and board(and I probably got it wrong saying they were just tuition and fees) and were from their college cost calculator, which would be about what the NCES figures would reflect when those costs are averaged in. The numbers from WA I cited were estimates for 2007-08, so they would be a little higher - probably about 5% or more, than the ICES numbers you provided.

The College Board numbers - here is the link to the numbers they currently put on their website.

http://www.collegeboard.com/parents/csearch/know-the-options/21385.html

All of the sources seem pretty much in the same ballpark when tuition, fees, room and board are considered. The figure in the chart Patsi linked obviously referred only to tuition and fees.

GORDO,

People will not pay attention to your story until an AMERICAN NEW AGENCY reports on it.

Patsi, with regards to this post, http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/obamas-smear-offensive.html#comment-110209

Do you know the significance of the "I am a man" quote? That was what was written on the strike placards of the sanitation workers in Memphis, TN.

http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/man/1intro.htm

This is the event that drew Martin Luther King to Memphis, created the environment for his famous swan song, "The Mountaintop speech" and his assassination.

However badly you feel white women have had it in this country, I'm not sure how you can argue that they had it worse than these workers.

Clinton may have been treated poorly, but did she get treatment that was worse than what Republicans would do? I don't think so. Also, it doesn't rationalize that if she were the invincible, perfect candidate for president, she wouldn't have run a poor campaign, based on poor planning and faulty assumptions.

I keep in contact with a lot of people back in RI who were huge Hillary supporters. They are self made millionaires who grew up in tough working class neighborhoods. They said that it was easy to see that Obama wanted to win more than Clinton. These are people that still keep Bill's picture on their walls, next to whomever is the pope.

I'll be the first to tell you that he seems to be believing all the hype but HRC supporters act like she was Joan of Arc when she was really more like Santa Evita...

So McCain announces his new JOBS FIRST economic plan today…while in Mexico, on a day where we learned we lost 62,000 jobs last month?? Now, that's some kind of message discipline . . .

http://bourbonroom.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/07/03/62000-jobs-lost-in-june-jobless-rate-55-obama-and-mccain-react/

FryDaddy,

Your last post was well stated and is the reason why I think the MSM has paid the story no mind.

Were that to be used against Obama, wouldn't that present a viable solution for dealing with some segment of the illegals being born here?

Craig,

I saw my first McCain ad last night, it aired on Lifetime, during the Golden Girls...that can't be good.

For all the talk about Obama being light on solutions, all McCain offered was, we need more jobs, fix foreclosures, yada yada yada. He did offer one thought on what to do or mention that many of his advisers are profiting from the messes he wishes to fix.

What kind of buzz is this getting in the beltway?

They've been playing McCain ads here for weeks. They just started playing Obama ads here within the last week.

flatus, that may be true or it may not. I'm sure that Gordo's source is just a totally believable photoshop techie geek with no axe to grind (insert flaming tildes of sarcasm here), but I have to laugh when "someone" does stuff that gets laid out onto the internets and it gets picked up as truth by as in this case conspiracy theorists who oppose him, repeated ad nauseum to try and get traction, and more importantly, isn't backed up by any evidence suggesting that the facts reflected in the document are false. Without more, even if the document is a complete forgery, the absence of that as a piece of evidence of his birth there does not prove or tend to prove that he wasn't born there. The problem with this issue is that what should, if true, be the start of an investigation into the issue is being held up as the answer to the question. Like I said, if he wasn't born in Hawaii, where's ANY evidence suggesting he was born somewhere else? This isn't that hard.

Craig, it is a strange place to announce a jobs first progam. Maybe he's down there to visit the Fender plant where Stratocasters are made in Mexico by Mexicans instead of the California plant where Strats are made in America by Mexicans.

"BHO was born in Hawaii, a sate of the US, his mother was a US citizen, so BHO is a US citizen. This is not rocket science."

Exactly, Fry. I don't see why this has ever been an issue -- just as McCain birth should not have been, considering his father was military. I was just looking over my old 1969 passport, which has my infant daughter's photo added with a statement about her birth.

A funny aside. I showed it to my 2-year old grandaughter, who was irritated that I suggested that her mommy was "my" baby, and that her mommy had even ever BEEN a baby.

"MSNBC Recants on Release
TVNEWSER __ It's no secret networks may take a little...creative license when it comes to ratings releases. But yesterday's MSNBC release about Hardball with Chris Matthews' June win at 5pmET caused MSNBC to admit it was, "an error."Although the release touts a Hardball win, the program actually finished third."

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/msnbc/msnbc_recants_on_release_88401.asp

Bear,

"Were that to be used against Obama, wouldn't that present a viable solution for dealing with some segment of the illegals being born here?"

My point exactly. This whole story is much to do about nothing which is similar to much of the blather coming from all sides these days.

"Now the FISA reversal - that's worth talking about."

Couldn't agree more, Pogo. Obama's claims of being a new kind of politician are my problem. And I'll admit that part of that problem is because he nailed Hillary with the same old-same old tag when he was no different. But all this other stuff is BS.

I get very few of those emails these days because I've pissed all my Republican friends off. (Except for the ones who have had it with Bush and voted for Hillary in the TN primary....they're still speaking to me.)

opps,

""Although the release touts a Hardball win, the program actually finished third."

MSNBC is looking more and more like the little child who has to invent stuff just to get noticed. Look at me, look at me, I'm Chris Matthews, I went to school in Philly, worked on the Hill, me and Tip were buds, I'm somebody. Yeah your somebody ok.

"our daughter made it through her disc surgery in fine shape with no complications, etc. She'll spend the night in the hospital and then come here so that Stinky can minister to her. I'm much relieved."

That's great news.

From Obama's response to the jobs numbers:
"That’s why I’m calling on Congress and the President to enact real, immediate relief with energy rebates for working families this summer, a fund to help families avoid foreclosure, extended benefits for the long-term jobless, and assistance to states that have been hard-hit by the economic downturn."

"energy rebates" sounds like petroleum products tax holiday to me.

Kathy -- I saw Vargas on c-span...he's very good. His comments on how the internet, and knowing more about manipulation of video footage etc are used to smear candidates, increase partisanship were right on.

matthews is still on TV? huh.......imagine that..........

i get loads of the republican slime e-mails......lol.....some of them are amazing.......

"I attended a private college with almost full assistance due to my family income- but a public one would cost more."

Kathy -- very true....if you are a star student, a private university is far more likely to give you a good scholarship.

Bear,

"Were that to be used against Obama, wouldn't that present a viable solution for dealing with some segment of the illegals being born here?"

My point exactly. This whole story is much to do about nothing which is similar to much of the blather coming from all sides these days.

Bear posted: "However badly you feel white women have had it in this country, I'm not sure how you can argue that they had it worse than these workers."

most women, non-white and white, had fewer rights then men at that time; were considered chattel; and to this day are abused (physically, verbally, publically) soley because of gender more than men. still practiced in the us are certain sects and religions treating women of any color less than free men.

Don't ask me how that happened, because that is not what I just sent out!

"I realize you have raised your children very well on your own, for the most part."

ha...not sure what you mean by "for the most part" dog....kinds like "You're likeable....enough." :)

One more FISA related post.
District Court: What FISA Did, What the FISA Capitulation Does
by mcjoan
Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:45:53 AM PDT
Yesterday Chief Judge Vaughn Walker of the Northern District of California issued an opinion in Al Haramain v. Bush, one of the cases challenging the NSA warrantless wiretapping program. EFF has the decision, which is a clear a repudiation of what the Democratic Congress of the United States is doing with the FISA Amendments Act as any post any left blogger has written.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/3/01858/48079/358/545773

"However badly you feel white women have had it in this country, I'm not sure how you can argue that they had it worse than these workers."

Bear....when I speak of sexism I surely do not mean just white women, not do I mean just in this country. I'm talking historically and universally.

Damn Bear I don't think you kicked the hornets nest hard enough. lol

If there was a scale consisting of all races, creed, religions, economy, you name it, I can guarantee you that at the bottom of the pile you'll find a female.

" HRC supporters act like she was Joan of Arc "

Not this one. I have always been aware of her shortcomings. And in the end, the media and the O-team did damn near sacrifice her at the alter.

Fry, et al., this really isn't terribly exciting, but, if, as a condition of living wherever she lived at that particular point of time, she renounced her US citizenship, that would put her status into the realm that Gordo talks about.

As Pogo quite rightly would suggest, the burden of establishing that such a renunciation exists, falls upon the accuser. J'accuse! J'accuse! Jean Val Jean, J'accuse!

Now on HuffPO: "For McCain, it's Jobs First in Mexico"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-crawford/for-mccain-its-jobs-first_b_110668.html

Fry, that was one of Gordo's takes on the issue, but Gordo has been spending column inch after column inch posting links to articles in Noquarter and the like questioning the validity of the birth certificate posted on Obama's site for a couple of weeks now, and I have been telling him to put up or shut up for about that long. If Obama was born in Honolulu to an American mother, he is a citizen, birth certificate or no. Even his Vsalaw link above is msileading - it is for kids born outside the US. The problem is that Gordo has not a single fact to prove that Obama is anything other than an American citizen, so he keeps posting what is in my view a BS distraction from the case wholly devoid of underlying evidence he's attempting to make. And the initial posting he put up regarding residency requirements was of current law for children born outside the US - and which has been changed numerous times, the version he had posted was changed in 1986 if I recall correctly. I don't object to this line of inquiry because I support Obama - I don't support him other than because he's the Dem nominee - and I am not thrilled about that - although I support McCain even less. I object to it because it is an intellectually dishonest argument - suggesting that law that is inapplicable to Obama under all the facts that have been presented and would invalidate his claim to citizenship and eligibility for the presidency if it were applicable should be applied because some technogeek says the BC on a website has been photoshopped.

Bear, Patsi. I'll take your workers and raise you mine.

The tragically poor women in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory are certainly at the top of the heap.

Fry is a feminist! Who knew? lol

Bear and I argue about this all the time. I used to argue it with the husband side of a black couple I was friends with....he always said women had it just great. That was before he made a million in the software business and left his sick wife for his blonde secretary.

Patsi, you knew McCain? Oh, wait, you said that guy was the husband side of a black couple. Sounded like McCain there for a moment.

Flatus,

Gordo doesn't talk about BHO's mother giving birth to little BHO outside the US, or she renounced her US citizenship. There is absolutely no proof that ever occurred. If those records existed someone in Immigration would have sold those document to the National Enquirer. Gordo's whole case comes down to a US citizen who marries a foreign national and has child. He believes that if said mother did not live in the US for a minimum of 5 years after the age of 14, the child born, in this case BHO, would not be considered a US citizen. This is so stupid its funny. BHO for better or worse was born to a US citizen, in the state of Hawaii, BHO is a US citizen.

flatus, what Fry said.

Barack Obama wants the job of POTUS. Why not just show everyone the certified paper documents? Is there something he doesn't want the public to know? If he was born on US soil, there is no question about being a natural born citizen. There is some reason to believe that he was actually born in Washington state - no problem. But if he was born in Canada, BO would not be a natural born citizen because his father was not a US citizen and his mother did meet the five year requirement (my 10:03 AM post).

Barack selling out?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20080702/cm_huffpost/110411;_ylt=AuvPvy8q.ePyAfj_wGIDxGSs0NUE

Gordo, there are just too many ifs in your statement. It's not like he was trying to gain membership in the Sons of the American Revolution, or something like that.

Dog
I believe Gordo loves munching on rotting meat.

Gordo
Why don't you tackle a real conspiracy, like who owns congress and why are they pissed at Iran.

Jack

All I wanna know is why he left Hawaii for Illinois? I mean , I have an Uncle who left Hawaii for Iowa and we all thought he was crazy. He moved back to Hawaii less than 2 years later!

"Patsi, you knew McCain? Oh, wait, you said that guy was the husband side of a black couple. Sounded like McCain there for a moment."

Ha, Pogo....yeah, McCain fits in there somewhere too...and Limbaugh, and Gingrich and...most of 'em are Republicans...

My biggest problem with the millionaire and his wife is that he was such an outspoken black advocate...then along came this blonde secretary. What a phony bast&&d,

Montana already has two Democratic Senators and a Democratic Governor. Not much of a surpise

As to the shade of blue...

"GORDO: isn't that horse dead yet?"

It's been dead so long Gordo is hoping it's glue and will stick...

On our Trail Mix Facebook group, we're gearing up a round of "Who's Your Favorite Founder?" for Independence Day. Play along at:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=17347137146

Gordo,

If there was a real concern, real proof, someone by now who have filed under the Freedom of Information. Or have paid-off someone in Hawaii to get a copy of his BC. I really think this is much to do about nothing as you are trying to prove a negative. Without proof it just isn't going to happen. If you want to beat up BHO, there are a number of real things you could attack him on. Mostly his own words and how he keeps back peddling trying to explain what he said last week, last month, last year, is exactly what he is saying now with a totally different meaning.

Corey

In his youth he aspired to be a do gooder. Part of a do gooder's psyche is one must suffer and pay penance.
It is amazing how many do gooders grow up to become politicians where they want everyone to suffer and pay penance. It is called shared sacrifice.

There are right and left versions of theis BTW.

Jack

I am off to buy stuff for tomorrow.

Everyone have a Happy 4th, and keep in mind what this holiday is all about.

another reason I love CC and C-list......

I have opinions, but I'm not particularly politically active.....I vote but I dont expect much and am rarely surprised (Kerry, Gore, etc....) But.........during the 08 primaries, the SC primary to be precise, I asked my daughter if she would go with me to see John McCain speak at the Citadel as CC was looking for reports from the primaries......so somehow we actually went.....going downtown is not my favorite thing......but I picked up me dotty downtown and we went to the Citadel to see John McCain.......it was not much that I could see, McCain and Lindsay Graham and some local goobers spouting the usual gop lines..........I found most interesting the choreography of the event.....herding the cadets in to fill out the sparse audience, the speakers dancing around, the photogs doing their jobs......etc...........
anyway.....the daughter and I didnt talk about it much then but a couple days later I asked what she thought and all she said was "I wish I hadnt gone." I axed why and she said, "because I didnt hate him before, and now I do....."
I let it go at that and that's about all I knew about it......the other day I hiphiphoorayed about her entering grad school....(communications)......well, that night she showed me her statement of purpose or whatever it is about why she wants to further her education.......she'd been considering other options as she's mostly poor while in school and she doesnt care for that at all......but there in the statement was the paragraph crediting her experience at the mccain rally as a defining moment: when mccain called for the censorship or suppression of moveon.org.......(betrayus was much in the news) as the reason she wanted to pursue her career in school........

I just thought "well, I'll be damned....." I still hope she comes to see the wisdom of pursuing a law degree, but one step at a time, one step at a time.......

Thanks, C-list.

"Also agree with your assessment of Gordo's, posts concerning Obama's birth. There are relevant unanswered questions."

Nick : right on the mark! I am glad your here. It improves everyone's day.

"suffer and pay penance"

Jack, you broke the code. And penance even goes so far as establishing the FFP (Fried Food Police) to ensure compliance.

My biggest problem with the millionaire and his wife is that he was such an outspoken black advocate...then along came this blonde secretary. What a phony bast&&d,

didn't the wife sue the crap out of him for support and at least half of everything he ever made?

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

I saw this billboard a few weeks ago. I thought it was cool.

http://forbetterlife.org/billboards/giving-back

Sturg, like they say, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." (I hope they say it in a good context because that's how I mean it.)

Craig,

It's very nice to see you framed by our Stars and Stripes, but where's your American flag lapel pin?

Happy 4th,

WACPAC

Im having a real problem with that train getting 436 miles to the gallon......how the hell are they figuring that?

the mccain moment was part of a larger view on censorship and media that she was developing......it was quite nice to see that.......

It's good when young adults have a moment when they realize what they wanna be when they get older or realize what they don't wanna be. Sometimes that is because of what they see happening in this world.

lol pogo

Patsi,

Thanks for the context of your feminist perspective. I never suspected you were speaking from a universal and not just an American perspective...

Flatus, with regards to this post

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/obamas-smear-offensive.html#comment-110308

Is that the Irish Laundry thing for wayward girls to get reformed? I saw the movie "The Magdalene Sisters" and I was shocked that they only closed the last of those places in 1996.

"didn't the wife sue the crap out of him for support and at least half of everything he ever made?"

You know, Dooty, I never knew. She was in her 50s, VERY sick from sickle cell anemia and was going to move to her parents....I never heard from her after she moved away. She'd been my son's soccer coach and so active before she really started getting sick. The whole thing was a heartbreaker.

usually the wife in such situations is hamstrung by the rich guy and his legal machinations......just like mccain's first wife was.......

Sturge -- that's a wonderful story about your daughter! My son was always political to an extent, but the Clinton impeachment hearings got him jacked up. Maybe sometimes you just have to see how many pricks are out there.

No, Bear, it was this:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/

The whole thing was a heartbreaker.

sounds like it

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

pats.....well, it's just funny to me that I would never in a million years have gone to the trouble of going downtown to see that old man talk his line of mierda del toro.......and would never have thought she would have agreed to go......but go we went.......lol......worked out very nicely.

OK,

I remember that now...studied it for a Public Administration class in college...

sturg - in WV ( I figure it's the same in most states) the rich partner gets to pay the poor partner's legal expenses in divorce cases.

Congrats to the daughter on her choice of grad school careers. It does seem a bit too useful though - coulda been History. Maybe she won't have to learn to ask customers whether they want fries.

Jack,

I don't know if I ever asked you but what is your favorite whiskey?

usually the wife in such situations is hamstrung by the rich guy and his legal machinations......just like mccain's first wife was.......

around here there are several men that are not nearly as rich as they once were. The ex-wives are considerably richer than they once were. The lawyers on both sides are now very rich.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

The lawyers on both sides are now very rich.

---Sr. Caballo

Aha!

everyone knows that clinton only won the first round thanks to the hatred of ross perot for bush 1........very common knowlege.......

I grew up in this particular town and the story of it's most famous resident is curious to say the least...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_%22Grizzly%22_Adams

" Clinton would not have won reelection "..

Bob Dole has only Bob Dole to thank for Bob Dole's loss

Why not give certified paper documents to a panel of independently selected document analysts for review? Why post images on his site and Daily Kos? Perhaps, it's because those images can be altered using photoshop. BO wants everyone to just BELIEVE! Some want proof.

the re-election is a different story to me.....but, of course, clearly debate-able.......
I just thank old jug-eared perot for giving my vote some meaning of any sort in 92 and 96........In SC if you voted for clinton or bush1 or dole it was a meaningless vote as gop carries SC......but perot getting 20% here was note worthy...........

Exit polls also showed that Ross Perot drew 38% of his vote from Bush, and 38% of his vote from Clinton, while the rest of his voters would have stayed home in his absence on the ballot[12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot

good afternoon gang....
finally caught up......

Bethyboo.... your 10:18pm post from last night was excellent, IMO....

Flatus & Sturg.... great news on the daughters....
and sturg.... yes.... isn't it funny how little things can have big meaning later on in life....

and speaking of exes..... my neighbor's ex has graciously volunteered to sleep on the couch and take care of her father until she can get him into a nursing home..... when he showed up last night, it felt like old times....

it's a spectacular day here in NH..... comfortable temperature..... low humidity..... think I'll start the holiday weekend early....

everyone have a great 4th!.... enjoy your weekend!

GORGO,

I know you love this attention and I hate to perpetuate it, but for example, if I scan a picture of my daughter into my computer and then use Photoshop to enlarge, crop, or otherwise manipulate it for my web site, has it not been "photoshopped"?

Just because you use a computer program with a file, it's not necessarily for nefarious reasons!

I thought Perot's decline started when he declared Republicans were messing with his daughter's wedding and the American public realized he seemed a bit wacko...

I should think that it's not possible that ALL of the perot voters would have switched to Dole which, from the numbers on your post, it would have taken......but like I said, there's no way of knowing for sure......debate-able

the perot thing with the gop and daughter's wedding......I think he realized that he could possibly actually be elected and it freaked him out, so he took steps........
lol

I thought Perot's decline started when he declared Republicans were messing with his daughter's wedding and the American public realized he seemed a bit wacko...

Bear,

since Ross lived around here, we all new he was a wacko but I think you are right about the daughter's wedding debacle.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

"The lawyers on both sides are now very rich. "

Doots -- no kidding! I had another set of friends that divided things up on their own, very fairly i might add...until the wife's lawyer got hold of it... after months and months, I finally couldn't stop myself from asking her if she wanted to end up with a dime or send her lawyer's kid to Harvard. Jeez!

Not appearing in the debates helped Perot.

"Perot tried to keep his movement alive through the mid-1990s, continuing to speak about the increasing national debt. He was a prominent campaigner against NAFTA, and even debated Al Gore on the issue on Larry King Live: what was then the largest audience ever to watch a cable program tuned in to the debate. Perot's behavior during the debate was a source of mirth thereafter, including his repeated pleas to "let me finish" in his southern drawl. The debate was seen by many as effectively ending Perot’s political career[ Support for NAFTA went from 34% to 57%. The following week, NAFTA passed the House, with some hesitant members of Congress saying the Perot debate helped make a vote for the bill more popular."
from the wiki article which also contains an analysis of Perot Voters which matches the exist statistics.

Bear...."delinquent grizzley" -- ROFL! Guess that story would make you think twice before rolling around on the ground with a bear! Oops...nothing personal....:)

Although now that I think of it, I am of the opinion you should change your name to "delinquent grizzley" -- it has a nice ring to it!

Speaking of ex's, a friend had quadruple by-pass, and her ex came down from Oregon and stayed at her house for a week with the dog, then he left and his second wife came down for a week and helped her get on her feet. Her ex even took her into the hospital and the nurses got a kick out of the fact he is her ex and helping her so.

a tense household........I stopped by a friend's house oncet and found him and his girlfriend and his Ex and his Ex's husband and the 3 kids all gathered in very strained postures watching the television.......it seems the Ex had come down to pick up the kids to take them back for a visit and their car broke down and they were forced to all bunk in for a couple of weeks........lol

Bethy -- one of my neighbors probably qualifies as the world's best ex....when his wife got very ill, he moved back in to help take care of her and the two boys. She lived about a year after I moved here...and he still lives there with his sons. Very nice couple (even divorced they sort of saw themselves as a couple, because of their kids) and I really gotta hand it to him for being a stand up guy through it all.

gordo asked: "Why not just show everyone the certified paper documents?"
why not indeed? tweety would give the tingle in his leg to show the proof. can't you imagine the msnbc spectacular: a host of andreas and ober alias hovering over the sacred document? and they would promote it, then pontificate on it for days. such a show deserves a gilbert & sullivan score for background music, but they'll play a montage of souza and springsteen. probably up their nielson rating.

sturg, IMHO Perot got what he deserved, Dole got what he deserved, Clinton got what he deserved. Combined, (assuming every Perot vote vote came from Dole - unlikely) Dole's and Perot's votes were .1% less than Clintons in1996. No set of numbers from the '96 elections shows Clinton winning becaue of Perot. But you know that.

Obama, McCain go after "mushy middle" voters. Good article. Captures the mood of many voters.

http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-the-middle

All sorts of labor stories being told today. Here is one that shows what can happen when seemingly benevolent paternalism morphs into a dictatorship and comes up against human nature and the desire for freedom:

The Pullman Strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_Strike

"Why not just show everyone the certified paper documents?"

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/obamas-smear-offensive.html#comment-110338

And another reason - it legitimizes conspiracy theorists.

Drafted that FOIA request yet, Gordo?

Corey, therein lies the rub, doesn't it?

pogo, but won't gordo have a problem getting the requisite consent?

"each agency shall also disclose:

(1) Any government record, if the requesting person has the prior written consent of all individuals to whom the record refers" (from your citation)

I don't see the point in engaging with Gordo on his conspiracy posts anymore. It's like we are on a spinning carnival ride that never stops and we eventually end up sick.

For those who like what he says, sure, engage. I for one have not been able to get a straight answer from the guy so I'm done.

Cheers,

Off to watch some season 3 of The Mary Tyler Moore Show

Book recommendation for the holiday:

"A Magnificent Catastrophe" by Edward Larson

http://www.amazon.com/Magnificent-Catastrophe-Tumultuous-Election-Presidential/dp/0743293177/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215109194&sr=1-1

It is about the first real presidential election of 1800 and how we ended up with a two party system courtesy of Adams and Jefferson.

People should research Obama's views, try reading his books. You'll see that he really is moderate in many ways and always has been. This so-called move to the middle was always there. Let's face it, although many of us would like someone really progressive, most elections are won in the middle. Even putting that aside, I think Obama is really more about "common sense". Again, read about his views. Wish the media would do that instead of harping on his so-called move to the center. It is all there in black and white.

Go Obama!

Left "are" out - you can figure out where.

patd,

In response to your post about my motives. . .

I'm not trying to put anyone into a box as to their political preferences. Please,
don't mistake my comment.

I was merely responding to "champ's" apparent irritation at me for not remembering he was now a Ron Paul supporter.

Further, out of respect for those blogging, I try to remember who everyone
is supporting in order not to offend anyone. It seems that can be a double edged sword.

That was all I was trying to clarify. Far be it from me to try to upset anyone or
label anyone. Some take offense if I don't recall who they are supporting, others, like you, take offense if I do.

It's a precarious balance.

Sen. Obama sees purple in Dakota.

"If Obama can challenge in a state that’s gone for the Republican candidate since 1964, he can challenge anywhere."

Interesting.

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=206940§ion=Opinion&freebie_check&CFID=52956832&CFTOKEN=79978945&jsessionid=88308cd22d4e4d406e1f

You can Say what you want about OBAMA.... John McCain is the person who got Cornholed by the KGB at the Hanoi Hilton.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/obamas-smear-offensive.html#comment-110392

dog's eye, no we caught that headline flub ourselves and fixed it -- surprised no one said something -- don't ever hesitate to flag such things -- it was just a case of late-night grogginess, nothing intentional

Some take offense if I don't recall who they are supporting, others, like you, take offense if I do.
Posted by: prof marcia
no offense taken. i apologize. yours triggered a less than civil reaction from me just after reviewing recent posts by others seemly pressuring those on board to expose themselves and their preferences. some of us out here range from the shy to the shyster and are reluctant to show our cards for many reasons. some good.

Patsi,

The funniest thing about that post is the fact that it took four tries of cracking his skull to get to the brain itself. I guess he could have used a lesson from Hannibal Lector...lol

patd, you got me thinking (dangerous) so I went to the HI FOI statutes to see whether that bit you extracted would cover the records I suggested Gordo request. After reading the statute I don't think so. You cited one of six catchall provisions of 92F-12(b) that exist to get around the exemptions. HRS 92F-13 & 14 provide the exemptions and examples of them, and I don't see birth records specifically or where any personal privacy interest that would trigger what you cited would be found. I am a little amazed that birth and death records aren't mentioned one way or the other, considering that they are the two records that everyone is likely to have eventually.

And the language quoted below leads me to believe that under the circumstances where the qualifications of a person to be POTUS is being challenged, the public interest in disclosure would outweigh any claimed right to personal privacy, particulary where the subject of the information has posted on a website the document whose issuance would be reflected in an agency's record, which would arguably constitute a waiver of any such claimed privacy interest..

"§92F-14 Significant privacy interest; examples. (a) Disclosure of a government record shall not constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy if the public interest in disclosure outweighs the privacy interest of the individual."

Links to the exemptions follow.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol02_Ch0046-0115/HRS0092F/HRS_0092F-0013.htm

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol02_Ch0046-0115/HRS0092F/HRS_0092F-0014.htm

patd,

Glad we have that all straightened out.

"The funniest thing about that post is the fact that it took four tries of cracking his skull to get to the brain itself. I guess he could have used a lesson from Hannibal Lector...lol"

EXACTLY! And ol' Adams kept giving the grizzley a "crack" at it! I kept thinking, Jeez, man JUST SAY NO!

Every week I try to post a link to Jason Whitlock's most recent column because I think he's one of the best columnist in the news business today.

Here is his latest that is some of his best stuff yet...

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8309562/Limbaugh%27s-not-that-different-from-pro-jocks

I wonder if the bear was thinking..."Yes I can!"

Well, I'm thinkin' it's time to duck out and extend the 3 day weekend by an hour or so. Everyone enjoy the weekend (and Ihope my legal assistant, who does all the work anyway, does as well. She was born on the nation's bicentenial). Craig, use tongs - it could save your fingers.

Pogo,

I would say your warning to Craig should be...

Screw the tongs and hire someone to do it for you...let someone else, trip and break their arm, leg, head, tailbone...hell, get your self a nice padded bubble to hang in for the weekend...lol

July 4th "Twilight Zone" marathon on the SciFi channel on now. I swear I have
all the episodes nearly memorized, but I watch them again and again. Anyone have a favorite?

Burgess Meredith, alone, spared from nuclear holocaust by being locked in the bank vault.....feels saved when he comes across the books in the library.....and then steps on his glasses...........

"It's a precarious balance.
Posted by: prof marcia July 3, 2008 2:40 PM

Hi Marcia,
I just read through the posts, and I just want to add a word of support for you. I really enjoy reading your posts and know you have never said anything offensive. Hate to see you worry about it.

Now Obama is ready to alter his Iraq policy. Tell me now what difference except the SC is left . Last week Fox ran an article on one of the SC thinking of retiring.
I never saw the ad again, but it makes sense if Bush wants to get another right wing SC Judge in now.. If Obama really does back out on Iraq, then he is toast.
All those people voting for him on that one item may just go for McCain as the general public see the repubs as the better party for war/terrorism.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080703/ap_on_el_pr/obama_iraq

Mr. Obama's ads show he's aware of his vulnerability on two fronts: his liberal values and his meager achievements. Yet he should be more cautious with these weaknesses.... He claims to have passed three bills, but fails to mention that two were in the Illinois state Senate and that he didn't vote on the third in the U.S. Senate. His new ad praises welfare reform, yet he opposed the legislation when a Republican Congress passed and President Clinton signed it.

Cash matters, but being a good candidate and right on the issues matters even more.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121504274204624755.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

See ya later, Pogo, and thanks for the tong advice. Makes sense. All I can say is Thank God for Blister Bandages. I too am off now, in search of marbelized meat!

"Refine"
As has been anticipated — including by his own former foreign policy adviser — Obama appears to be easing off his support for a timetable of withdrawal from Iraq, saying instead that he'd be driven by conditions on the ground.

“I’ve always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed,” he said today in North Dakota, according to Jeff Zeleny. “And when I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I’m sure I’ll have more information and will continue to refine my policies.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/movies/29carr.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

documentary movie on the life and journalism of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Some analyst on CNN said last night that Obama realizes that he's not gonna be able to bring the troops home any faster than McCain. That's why he's backed off his earlier statements.

My brother-in-law's realtives from Long Island are visiting here this weekend. They are called "The Camera Club", because they run a camera shop. I enjoy listening to their thicks accents. They are big Mets fans. The last time I talked to them they said they went to St. Louis and saw the Mets play the Codnals.

Relatives* , I mean.

Craig,

My favorite founder is Adam Weishaupt.

Very good article on Caroline Kennedy taking the reins of the VP search.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080703/pl_politico/11498

lol- "VP search". Like they're looking for the next Dalai Lama

Champ,
Your talking about Ron Paul has got me thinking.
Maybe a president that believes in the honoring the Constitution to the letter isn't such a bad thing.

Then I think, he doesn't have a chance.
Right?

Update: Daily Kos, an Obama Activist, and Forged Birth Certificates

"In this update to JimJ’s first story, the author concludes that the Certifications of Live Birth published on Obama’s FightTheSmears site and DailyKOS are forgeries, and that both images originate from the blogger opendna’s forged template. JimJ’s theory is based on the discovery of a matching anomaly in all three documents.

Given the importance of the discovery of what appears to be the forged birth certificate ... the appropriate authorities should be called upon to investigate Jay Mckinnon, and those involved at Daily Kos, and at the Obama Campaign. Given the abundance of documentation concerning the possibly fraudulent nature of the digital version of his birth verification, the Obama Presidential Campaign should be called upon immediately to produce the paper version of his Hawaii Certification of Live Birth, in fact, any such document actually exists."

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/update-daily-kos-an-obama-activist-and-forged-birth-certificates/

Chloe,

Yeah, we'll rap later. I'm going to get some sunshine right now.

IMO the smears haven't had much impact.
Fighting smears is a good strategy for Obama because it keeps people from focusing on issues.

I think I saw the Dalai Lama walking in Holland today.

Prof Marcia -- my favorite Twilight Zone is when Agnes Moorhead battles the little aliens to the death....

UPDATE:

In the beginning, there was the 2nd Kos image

"1. There is not one scintilla of evidence to show that any one of the many images posted online are an unretouched, genuine copy of Obama’s “Certification of Live Birth.”

2.Conversely, there is a ton of evidence proving, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that ALL of the images posted online are forgeries

4. There is no evidence showing that a certified COLB for Obama even exists — it certainly does not exist in the public domain.

5. ... Until a real, certified COLB is shown, Obama will be seen as failing to verify his true citizenship status.

No amount of apologetics will dispel the discovery that any and all of the images that folks like you insist are genuine, are, in reality, unabashed forgeries whose sole purpose is to dupe the American public and the International community."

http://polarik.blogtownhall.com/2008/07/03/in_the_beginning,_there_was_the_2nd_kos_image.thtml

Good thing you're here GORDO.

It's so quiet I could hear a pin drop.

Patsi - I think your couple wins hands down. I wonder if more people couldn't get along like that if they really wanted to. I hope to never be in a situation where I hated the other person etc - course, I never married. I saw enough of hostility, un-warranted in my opinion, and deliberate provocation that I have always been amazed that people marry, first, and then they stay together!!!!!

Chloe & Rebellious - thanks for the nice words. I said a lot more than I intended to. Now you know why I can't sleep after reading a provocative book - or even a serious phone conversation.

Craig - I agree Obama needs to fight back, but that's no excuse to sneak more religion into the govmint. You know Moslems will be in there, too, as they should be, and where does that get him? I think he should look them in the eye and tell them about Christianity and not bearing false witness. He should get really angry. As it is, he's caved - or he's done another flip-flop.

Thanks for the heads-up re Magnificent Catastrophe.
Just heard about another good new one, Liberty' Blueprint. about the Federalist Papers.

I found one rather esoteric book called The Revolutionary War in the Southern Backcountry for my sister. She really liked it.

It's a not a president's role to proselytize Christianity.

Has the Twilight Zone marathon started already?

No, absolutely not. He should just fire back at the ones spreading the rumors, whom I take to be right-wing self-satisfied Christians-of -a -different-order, and remind them of what Christianity is. I don't hold with proselytizing. Now they will just accuse him of trying to get Moslems in a side door. It's not about Islam; it's about people who will never like him needling him. He can't prove he's Christian, and will look silly trying to.
Moslem isn't a dirty word, any nore than Jew or Christian, or Zoroastrian.

Once again, that's my opinion, but I am rather tired of the religious " scandalous" rumors.

Yes on Twilight Zone ... the aliens have landed on Maple Street. Just about as good an example of the stupidity of engendered fear as was ever written.

Why should Obama fight when he doesn't have to.....Why should he be drawn into the ring on a non-issue?

funny marathon to run this holiday

People sometimes get upset when I say I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance. I say it in public (leaving out Under God), but as seldome as possible except for peaceful co existence.

You might enjoy reading the history of the Pledge that prior to WW II was delivered with a fascist salute

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

They get upset when I sing the national anthem, and they should. : )

A little less laughter in this world. Bozo the clown dies at age 83.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080703/ap_on_en_tv/obit_harmon

I think you're saying that none of the religions should have anything to do with government. Like the constitution says. That all religions are equally credible. And that the Republicans use religion to get votes.

I just saw 2 posts that I think might have been directed at me and I want to say again that

I do not want Obama to proselytize Christianity.

I do not want a President to be a preacher or moral leader.

I don't know if that's how you read my comment, but if you did take it that way, you took it wrong.

My morals need no leading. I worshipi within myself (will I get into trouble with that phrase?). That is one reason I have been irritated by so many people saying time and again, Obama is such an inspiration speaker. Inspiriational sminspirational ! I don't need inspiriation - I need a worker who loves to clean up messes and likes to work. It's a job - it's not a calling.

I would like to hope any president would have some sense of taste in clothing, style, art, and manners - not chewing with his mouth open or rubbing a very important woman' neck. But frankly, I can do without all that if he or she will just get to work, and I mean WORK.

Okay, have I cleared my name of all charges of evangelism and bigotry and idolatry ?

If not try this, a quote from a turn-of- the- century actress
in England: I don't care what people do so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses.

bethyboo,
They see what they want to see.

My favorite founding father is Alexander Hamilton, He was unique in that his background was totally un-conventional, and he insisted on our new nation paying off its war debts. What a way to start a country, financial stability.

I'm basically Tevye, but I think a little Hamilton, too.

"My favorite founding father is Alexander Hamilton, He was unique in that his background was totally un-conventional, and he insisted on our new nation paying off its war debts. What a way to start a country, financial stability." bethyboo

bethyboo,
do you think that sounds like Ron Paul at all?

They see what they want to see.

Posted by: chloe Author Profile Page | July 3, 2008 7:47 PM

So true. And as true for you too chloe. Think about that.

Bethyboo

It's nice to know someone else appreciates Mrs. Campbell. George Bernard Shaw wrote for her and she was the original Eliza Doolittle in Pygmalion.

When I was a commissioner the custom was we, as a group, would say the pledge and then do an invocation on a rotating basis.

There would always be one guy who would practically shout out the pledge.

Some of the invocations were straightforward, others were creative.

I tried being non-religious. That ticked some people off. Pretty soon they decided to have a period of silent meditation.

Yes we always go on about "Land of the Free" but we are the only nation on earth that expects its citizens to recite a loyalty oath on an almost daily basis.

Good afternoon all ... some very interesting conversations here today.

Bettyboo: That quote about not frightening the horses is one of my favorites as well. And I know exactly what you mean about some people keeping track of how many Muslim programs receive government money. Heck, I keep track of how many evangelical organizations are getting money now.

Jamie: I'm with you on the pledge, although when I briefly taught school I had to say it everyday. Do you remember when they introduced God? And I almost didn't make it into UCLA because I wouldn't take the loyalty oath. Yet, hearing America the Beautiful and even the Star Spangled Banner brings tears to my eyes. Go figure.

Are PUMAs cougars that are Hillary supporters?

Flatus - I enjoyed your invocation story. Behaviour mod, ain't it great?????

Jamie: I read somewhere that the US and only one other country even had such a thing as the pledge of allegiance ... I have forgotten the name of the other country but it was definitely not a country we would want to be associated with.

Maggie

The history above gives all the dates and changes to the pledge. I get totally mushy with music as well, but that love and appreciation is internal not something others expect of me.

Why should Obama fight when he doesn't have to.....Why should he be drawn into the ring on a non-issue?"

Good question, burrito...there's a part of me that thinks he should ignore the BS -- but then, that's what Kerry did and it buried him. So I don't know.

Favorite Founder? Can't really say that I'm thrilled about our founders, especially since my race was enslaved for another 87 years after the Declaration. So I'd rather honor the principles they established, versus honoring them as human beings.

Jamie: You express it exactly. I've always taken the attitude that loyalty oaths and the pledge (which I guess is a form of loyalty oath) are meaningless ... anyone can say anything and it doesn't prove a darn thing. The other thing is ... in defense of Sen Obama ... I don't know that I've ever put my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played ... unless a color guard is parading the colors....I had no idea at all that it was an expected thing to do.

Why should a politician fight back when he's attacked, when quite often in private life it's best to let it go by?
Hmmmmm. Interesting. Probably has something to do with how the public perceives it as the ability to defend the country? or not? Or the fact that for a private citizen the attack isn't necessarily in full view? all eyes aren't on the private citizen?

Many possibles here, grasshopper.

Those of you who admire Mr Hamilton ... it has long been said that he was the reason for the natural-born citizen requirement to be President, in that he was born in the West Indies. That may be an apocryphal story but it is repeated in many histories.

Mr. D

If it helps, Benjamin Franklin founded the first Anti Slavery organization.

If you have never seen 1776, this song would give anyone with a heart cold chills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXCVG1UNj5Y

Mr Democrat: You paint with too broad a brush. Many of the founding fathers were not only not slave owners, but were already active abolitionists. That their views did not prevail on this subject is a tragedy and a stain on our history, but not all the Founders deserve to be excoriated because of it.

There were several scandals associated with Mr. Hamilton. One of them finally got him shot by Aaron Burr.

Although it is a novel, the book Scandalmonger by William Safire is a good read on the Hamilton scandals, among other early scandals. Those founding fathers knew how to play hardball for real.

So now Senator Obama is willing to reconsider his Iraq witdrawal policy.

Let's see..Add that to..

Flip floppig on FISA just like the Canadians said he would..

Rejecting Public Financing

etc. etc. etc..

Let's dump this lightweight and win the November election!

OD: I don't mind him changing his positions so much as I mind that he tries to make it seem as if the new positions are the ones he always held.

maggisd..i agree..there is nothing authentic or original about Barack Obama..He is all show..I'm just worried that we will actually nominate him and the drip drip drip of his shallowness will doom us in November..

In honor of freedom and the 4th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSaL-mLA-IY

OD, Nick: I don't know whether to be more worried that he won't win or that he will win ...

Mr D - how then do you feel about members of your race captured and sold many of the other members of your race into that same slavery? The practice is still alive and well in Africa today, all within the same race.

How do you feel about members of your race being slaveholders here?

How do you feel about the thousands who died in our Civil War expressly to end the slavery which many of your race helped to get going?

Why are the founding fathers the ones you seem to hold accountable?

I ask, not to be a smart-ass, but to see how many people you condemn. The western white man did not invent slavery and slavery is not the only monstrous act of man against man. This country is the only one which has ever set up a real process and procedure to adress such issues. Not one of the founding fathers was without fault, and some were more attractive than others, but they sure as hell started something no one else could have. In my opinion, we are not climbing to achieve perfection but going forward to keep getting better.

And by the way, I thought there were rumors that Hamilton was part black. As for scandals, well, I never!!!!! (And that may very well be why some were afraid of his being president - could have been simple ole jealousy. At least they knew he was someone to be be noticed.)

A person is under no obligation to defend a personal belief in order to satisfy someone else's expectations.

The dynamic is somewhat different for politicians; if you don't defend a belief it's equated to not having a belief. Said differently, believe in something, I don't care what it is, but believe. So, most politicians feign a belief believing that it makes life simpler.

I've kind of done it other ways by calling on a know believer to make the invocation then offering hearty congratulations on the breadth and depth of the individuals heartfelt words.

If that didn't suffice, I would say something like, "Don''t be so judgmental; if you upset God, She'll really be upset with you." That would generally let the individual know that I considered him to be a real putz.

Or, calling someone a religious bigot would usually cause them to walk away in shock. But they would often return, the following week, with a group of like-minded bigots.

Being a servant of the public is not easy. :)

Time to go folks ... everyone have a happy ... and SAFE 4th.

Gore Vidal's "Burr" is a great read as well.

"religion" and "credibility" are mutually exclusive

...and get over it, Mr. D. Every race and nationality has been enslaved at one point or another in human history. You weren't enslaved by the founding fathers or their contemporaries, I am sure of that.

Since I'm bringing up race, I remembered someone said something about a 'level-playing field' in regards to economics and the black community. The Mexicans are sure shooting that argument to sh_t. They don't whine about a 'level-playing field'. They just go out and work.

anything else you want to say ? champ...?

Obama was better off when he voted present.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5giojIhr1t6DX6K27JDnIVDciQDTgD91MLKF00

The Roe v Wade argument loses strength.

Bettyboo,

Your notion that the slave trade requires separate condemnation reflects your lack of understanding. The slave system was a worldwide system of inhumanity; from the Africans who sold fellow Africans to Europeans. To the Europeans who created an agricultural/industrial complex around the system. And yes, to the Founding Fathers, who benefited from African slavery. Whether we're talking about Northern ships and banks financing and insuring slave ships, to Southern plantations shipping agricultural goods to the world, African Americans remained the one economic tie that created the wealth of this nation. Keeping human beings as chattel, no more than a horse or a pig, is not something that is rationalized away.

And your interpretation of the Civil War is historically inaccurate. Thousands of Union soldiers no more died to emancipate slaves than Allied soldiers were fighting Nazi Germany to free Jews. The purpose of each conflict may have had ramifications that were not prevalent at the start of each war, but don't please don't confuse it with being the main objective.

Not being perfect has been the excuse for many tyrants, saviors and yes, Founding Fathers, who rationalized the inhumane treatment of human beings as justification for reaching large goals. While the principles may be high minded, it is perfectly justifiable to point to fact that say the ownership of one human being by another is a crime against humanity. And there's no rationalization for that.

Frederick Douglass wrote a note in the 1850s that summed up how African Americans viewed the Fourth of July. Maybe it's time to read it again.
-----
What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants brass fronted impudence; your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanks-givings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Champ,

Your post is not only insulting, it is short sighted and ignorant. You infer that African Americans, a people who worked this country without human rights for two hundred years, and with second class rights for another one hundred years, have not worked for this country. When you say that, you insult me, my parent, grandparents and all of my relatives who have not only worked for this country, but fought and died for a country that often was slow to provide the same rights as every other citizen in this country. That was a despicable post.

It was a despicable post, as was the second one he posted.

One more reason to love this country -- the resourcefulness of its artistic community....

Roadie Rocks Out When Bassist Passes Out

A roadie for the Gin Blossoms got the opportunity of lifetime at Summerfest this week -- when bassist Bill Leen passed out cold during the last song of their set.

We're told the band finished the song with their new bassist while Bill just laid there -- and then the roadie came back out for the encore performance of "Follow You Down."

One thing Mr. D/Bye Bye -- I will guarantee you that the first human being beaten and enslaved in this world was a woman, no matter what color. Yet you boys -- black and white -- sneered and laughed anytime any woman mentioned sexism through this political season. So on behalf of every woman who was ever beaten, raped, sold and owned -- I say shove it.

Get back to me on this the day they make wife beating a hate crime.

I quit asking people about their candidates after, many expressed they didn't like being asked....

champ was out of line no matter who he supports....

And by the way, I agree with you Mr. D -- champ's post was -- as the O-campaign might say -- ill-advised.

Patsi....can I ask you one thing...and I am being serious...you don't have to answer if you don't care to.

Do you think your life was any easier because you were white instead of black?

Not that this proves anything. It's just something I have been thinking about lately.

Obama's doing the RIGHT thing by addressing EACH smear as it comes his way. He's calm & collected ,and that's exactly how he should handle it, with a *sigh* even.

Getting angry and hysterical is NOT a good thing. Let McBush do that. Demeanor between the 2 is stark and clearly in Obama's favor.

American's DON'T want a ranting, old man for President. Notice how I speak for ALL 300 million Americans.

tt

Patsi,

I don't disagree. Spousal abuse should be a hate crime. I see no reason to not make it so.

As for slavery, there's a curious fact about race and gender that never gets mentioned. American slavery was unique in one aspect. Slavery, in this country, followed the condition of the mother. So if the mother was African American, her children were born into perpetual slavery. This accounts for the example of Mary Hemmings' children being slaves, even though they were half white. But if the mother was white (and there were quite a few white women/black men unions in the early days of the colony), the children were born free. Something to think about when we talk about the complications of race and gender.

"Do you think your life was any easier because you were white instead of black?"

If you are talking about racism versus sexism, it's difficult to know. Shirley Chisholm would have told you she had far more problems related to her gender than her race.

It just seems to me that the very people here who cry racism the most are the ones who used sexism as a battering ram.

"But if the mother was white (and there were quite a few white women/black men unions in the early days of the colony), the children were born free. Something to think about when we talk about the complications of race and gender. "

I agree, MD -- and it gets even more complicated when you start to delve into what rights married women -- white or black -- had in those days. Husbands could beat them -- have them put in insane asylums -- you friggin' name it. They had the illusion of safety...and that's why so many women never quite "get it." Because they've never come up against it.

My grandmother moved to the prairie as an adult woman, and said it was very different and liberating out there in the West. Women were far more valued. And as a matter of fact, so were blacks.

I should say this -- because once I was accused of racism for always using "blacks" instead of AA....but my son't football team, which I half raised, despised the AA term...said it was phony. So I stay away from it.

Hypocrisy...

Imagine that! Someone who thinks, weighs all the information before her, and changes her mind. Yep...the hypocrisy of it all....

That was Shirley Chisholm. I think if you talk to most black women, they are split between the double burden. One difference between white women and black women is that white women have white privilege on their side. Black women don't have that on their side.

UB

It looks like the ghost of Tim Russert just showed up, playing got ya games with you.

Funny from a nom like hypocrisy
lol

Jack

Patsi,

A new study just released said that black folks prefer Black around 42% and African American around 44% of the time, so you're good either way. Mostly, black defines the political status (as in contrast to white), while African American is more cultural, which means encompassing everyone with black skin, regardless of origin. I find either fine, although older folks like my grandmother still says "colored". We're working on her. LOL

"Hate crimes" are an assault on the 1st amendment. Who the hell is anyone to tell anyone else who or what to hate? That's akin to Orwellian "thought crime"

If you hit someone in the head with a hammer, that's assault, which warrants prosecution in itself. It shouldn't matter why you did or what demographic to which the victim belonged.

How about we just call them "people", Mr. D.

MD -- re: blacks v AA....as I said, my PC education on terminology came from a bunch of 15-17 year old boys. But I'll stay with their preference.

But now that I think of it, I know almost no blacks who call themselves AAs....

"African American is more cultural, which means encompassing everyone with black skin, regardless of origin"

As I read that sentence it says : skin color = culture, if that is what you meant I'm not even sure how to respond except to say that is not what I see everyday in my neighborhood.

I have met some KKK members who would agree with you.

Jack

someone looked up my old posts!!! that is hilarious -LOLOLOL what loser has the time or the desire to do that...... ? I mean really

BTW, that is exactly how I felt at that time. : )

Because Mr.D. is black, he speaks on behalf of all black people everywhere, Jack. You're not allowed to argue with him about racial-social issues. It's "the rules".

No Champ. I speak more intelligently about what it's like to be black, just like Patsi speaks more intelligently about what it means to be a woman. You are more than allowed to argue. But be sure that when you're wrong, you'll be called on it. And by the way, "black folks" is an intra cultural expression African Americans use to refer to each other. See? You learn something every day, don't you?

Jack,

How those KKK members view me is not of any importance. What I call myself is what is most important.

Holy Cow, dude.

You are thick as a brick, aren't you? When I 'compared" you to a Nazi, I was being IRONIC, i.e., making a joke, referencing the "Godwin's Law" you hold in such high esteem. I wasn't really comparing you to a Nazi. I realize you are not a Nazi. jeez.

I forget who the interview was with, but I saw an interview on tv about 10 years ago. A reporter was asking a black man about Rosa Parks and her refusal to give up her seat on that bus. He said that if she had been a black man instead of a black woman, she would have got her ass beat for that. He dismissed what she did as to having any effect on the civil rights movement back in the 60's.

Am I allowed to say "black folks", Mr. D? Since you're the intelligent one here? Or did you mean informed? Do you even know what the hell you're saying?

Careful now. Craig's gonna ask that this discussion get moved to another blog.

Champ,

Sure you can say, black folks. You're not African American, but that's okay. Maybe your best friend who's black will smile and say, good going when you say it?

Back channel has 60 posts today. Trail Mix has 356 today.

"that is spooky isn't it UB, to think someone has nothing better to do than catalog posts on blog. Very spooky!"

I think it is spooky too -- but not as spooky as you tracking down pictures of me buried deep inside polka websites....

I think this discussion is very relevant here. Race is a huge issue this campaign, and it needs to be discussed. Sensibilities will be affronted in the process, to be sure, but we should forge ahead anyway, imo.

Any loser (hypocrisy I mean you) who needs to know more about my support for Obama can read it here:

http://unlikelyburrito.blogspot.com/2008/06/no-to-mccain.html

( you could also find out more about me, then you could come in under another bullshit name and be a jerk again.)

***to all others this is a repeat post

"Sorry Patsi, I could only make it past 15 seconds of that youtube, not my genre. "

ROFL -- As Shel Silverstein (the song's writer) once told me: "A lot of dumbasses don't get the satire in the lyric."

polka web-sites?

UPDATE:

Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims

"The perceived unreliability of the image has provoked petitions and widespread demands for Obama to submit for objective inspection the paper versions of the "birth certificate" he claimed in his book Dreams from My Father was in his possession, as well as the paper version of the Certificate of Live Birth for which the image on the Daily Kos and the Obama "Fight the Smears" website was supposedly generated.

Without a valid birth certificate, the primary record of US birth, Obama cannot prove that he fulfills the "natural born citizen" requirement of the Constitution, throwing into grave doubt his eligibility to run for President. His presumed Kenyan-born father was foreign-born, and his mother was too young at the time of birth to confer natural born status by virtue of her American citizenship. Thus his citizenship comes down to proving he was born in the USA, and his campaign has staked its credibility on the authenticity of the Daily Kos-derived birth certificate image."

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12956.htm

LOL

Gotta love Gordo.

Except MD you weren't speaking for yourself you were speaking for everybody with dark skin and that their culture derives from the color of their skin. You appeared to be agreeing with the KKK members in that "there ain't no difference in them"

Everybody with dark skin is not connected to you culturally. If you are(as i suspect) an educated middleclass suburban decendent of slaves. You may have only superficial cultural commonalities with the AA's that live in urban environments. Let alone some one from Kenya, Somali, Haiti, Guatamala, just to name a few of the Cultural/ethnic heritages of dark skinned people in my neighborhood.

Jack

Well , I think I'm approaching 50 posts for the day. Thanks for the pre-4th of July fireworks tonight. Night all.

Hey Corey!

tt

You're right, I do like Patsi, and frequently agree with her. She actually thinks for herself, as do Chloe, Burrito, and Beth. I respect that.

"polka web-sites? "

I am in the music business, burrito. The picture in question was taken at a polka show in Nashville hosted by the man who launched Meatloaf's career. His record label, Cleveland Intl, is well-known for ethnic music. Including polka. Which I love by the way.

Hypocrisy please, just say what ever is you want to me. I flip flop?
okay, what else?

oh , I didn't know you liked polka...I knew you were connected with music though.

lol

laughing at Lieberman comment

"I flip flop?
okay, what else?"

She is a woman, it is her right to change her mind!!
;-)
Grin , duck and run

ouch that hurt

Jack

I love all sorts of ethnic music, burrito. Especially polka and Tex Mex....Plus was a friend of Frankie Yankovic...America's Polka King....ha!

texas tornados guacamole

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIW2Teg4F6k

She's gettin' more laughs than you. You're the one that needs new material, Godwin.

A little tejano musica

Ram Herrera - Ahora Dile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usfl9CL5RXE

Charlie Parker - Summertime (Jazz Instrumental

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bWqViY5F4

Jack, don't know if you are still around....but here's one of my favorites...your fault for getting me hooked on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuyTzsTIxts

Better watch it gang, speaking of youtube: Scary stuff

Judge orders Google to give YouTube user data to Viacom

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ivUVi0QfrL2SF8muh3ME1BdDKVAA

Good stuff, Jack! Here's Little joe -- anybody who doesn't love TexMex music is demented!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LgBdAnoAbg&feature=related

Sorry Champ, but you either have a very superficial understanding of the African American community, or you know nothing about us. The African American community has always been an all encompassing community of African descended people, partially because American laws treated us that way. With the one drop rule establishing the criteria for blackness, it didn't matter if your point of origin was from the Caribbean, Africa, the descendant of slaves, Creoles, mixed race, etc. Our African American community accept one and all as members, and as such, we have cultural influences from various communities. A Marcus Garvey can be from Jamaica and move millions of black in this country as part of a movement. Malcolm X can be part Grenadian and still be African American. Just as other ethnic groups come to this country and become more American with each generation, each generation of immigrant black people become more African American. And there are DEEP ties to Ghana, Nigeria, Jamaican, Haitian, etc. roots within this community. What was done as a way to negate our dignity by making black skin a detriment had a different effect. It actually made blurring the lines easier and your self identity much more important. Therefore, in the case of a person like Barack Obama, it doesn't matter if he self identified as African American at birth, in high school, in college or yesterday. He is African American and he sees himself as African American. The same goes for the newest black immigrant to the oldest descendant of slaves.

By the way, I think a lot of this misunderstanding about black culture comes from the idea that African Americans really don't have a culture that developed outside of American culture. That there's nothing really unique about being African American versus any other American. That's humorous since until thirty years ago, America did all ti could to promote the separateness of blackness in American society. So why in the world wouldn't we have a gumbo of heritage tied into an all encompassing African American culture?

MrD - I figured you'd say most of that. I don't get why you used the economic value of African American slaves to this country to answer my question of how you feel about Africans who sold people of the same race into slavery. Do you think they are equally reprehensible as the slavers and slave holders? Do you think that those slave procruers should be exonerated on the basis that the slaves were not as big a part of their economic systems? If the last, I doubt you could know that.

Or course, many of the people who died in the Civil War weren' t doing so for altruistic reasons, but many were. There would have been no abolition movement without white people.

African American slavery is not the only instance of slavery or montrous acts, as I said before. We know more about African American slavery because it is more immediate, but slavery was always there, and for much longer spans of time.

What it comes down to is that some African Americans feel as you do and some don't, for whatever reason - wait. You want to say how do I know that? I don't, any more than you know the opposite.I'm very sorry - sorry?. No I'm stupified - dumbstruck --for what was done to African Americans. I can't stand to study the Civil War because I can't handle the thought of so many people actually believing they could own a person.I abhor the very idea of any one person being in control of another person's freedom of movement or thought. So I'm weak and have a limit to how much suffering I can stand to imagine. Have you ever seen a movie called 'Night in Fog' ? If not, I recommend it highly to you. I should give you an idea of what I mean.

I'm not gonna change anything in your thinking, and you're not gonna change mine, and I probably won't even get you to believe I'm not a racist. I want you to know that I don't believe I labor under mis-perceptions
and mis-understandings. I feel I have a different viewpoint, that's all, but I won't call you any names for it. You know next to nothing about me, and I you. I'm feeling nothing but frustrated at our inability to communicate, so I hope you aren't feeling insulted or wounded. Can we agree to disagree and walk away from it?

Bettyboo,

If you read my note carefully, you'll note that I condemn every aspect of the slave economic system. And as you note, there would be no abolition without white people, fair enough. But slavery wouldn't have lasted generations without white people too.

The existence of slavery in other societies, or for longer periods, does nothing to justify its presence in this country, particularly when we compare the inhumane institution to the lofty words of our Founding Fathers.

Which is why I noted that picking a "favorite" Founding Father without context doesn't make sense to me. Do you pick George Washington? Great man who owned human beings. Thomas Jefferson? One of the greatest thinkers ever and theorists about human freedom, and yet in his Notes on the State of Virginia, believed in the inherent inferiority of African Americans as people. If written by another man not named Jefferson, we'd say that this man was not great, but a racist.

Here's something to think about. Slavery is not that far away in most African American families. When I was 10, my great-great grandfather celebrate his 100th birthday. He was born in 1876 and his father and mother were slaves. He used to say that he was light skinned because his mother was the product of a Master/Slave rape. Those stories remain in our families, so they're not long lost legends or deeds read in history books. Slavery has ramifications to this day, just like the potato famine haunts some Irish families, pogroms affect some Russian Jewish families, etc.

I'm not insulted or wounded, and I'm not attempting to do the same to you. And this miscommunication is as old as America itself. How does America look itself in the mirror and say that it enslaved human beings, all under the auspices of life, liberty and justice for all? I would like instead for you to understand that from a different perspective, slavery isn't something long ago. It's something that haunts my community to this day.

Waaahhhh.

Champ,

That's probably the most articulate thing you've said today.

NEW THREAD -- But please stick to observations about our nation's birth. Current politics can wait a while.

Something to be said for simplicity, eh? Touche.

No hard feelings, bro. I don't agree with most of what you've said, but I respect your opinion and you as a person.

Sturgeone; 9:46 am....07/01/08.... I meant to post this before but alzheimer's got in the way. I enjoyed the read, but as for your post not meaning anything, whatever happened to "we the People". I also enjoy your one-liners and your music references.

Jack; 11:49 pm...... I have to say it Jack, I prefer Janis Joplin's rendition of "Summertime".

Mr. Democrat; 12:04 am..... Sir; the biggest "blackbirders" of all were African. So unless a -Freaky Friday - occurs, I can not understand, but I can sympathize, but I refuse to feel guilty over something I abhorred, had no control over, did not and don't do.......

Everyone have a Happy, Celebratory, and Safe 4th of July...........

Mr D - How does America look itself in the mirror and say that it enslaved other human beings?

I don't know, but I do know that it has to, or the current generation of young African American kids will not have
better lives than their forebears. It has to, or things will never get better. It has looked itself in the face, and I think is trying to do better. Maybe you don't think so.

How does a man look at himself in a mirrot and say
"One of me just raped and tortured a 12 year old girl
last week. "

How does a woman look at herself in the mirror ans say "One of me sold her child into sex slavery to get money for drugs."

I don't know how we all see our faces in a mirror and know what one of us has done - I don't know how people do it. But they do. Not doing so leads to all sorts of personal nightmares and repetitions of past horrors.

I just now thought of saying something, but I may not be able to find the right words yet. Are you aware, consciously aware, of how wearying it is to try to make a difference and find nobody notices? Your anger and contempt comes off the screen, and makes me feel that here's one man who doesn't care what I say I feel - it can't make up for the past, and it makes me sad that you will carry that with you the rest of your life.

If you're right and all African Americans feel as you do, then I'll just stop worrying about it as one of those things I can't change but keep voting liberal and smiling at people I meet of whatever color and let the ages drain the chokehold which the past has on this great community we have.

I'm not sacrificial. If it is fore-ordained I cab't make a difference, and haven't in 66 years, I'm not going to struggle.

If you've put up with this for the whole length, thanks. I will admit that I've become emotional, and for several reasons. One is this damned tooth that is still throbbing just enough to drive me nuts. The other is the subject matter. Before I read your last post, I was going tosay good night and that I was going to try to stay away for a few days because my not feeling good has weakened my ability to deal with the drama here.
I will repeat I recommend a movie called "Night in Fog." I think every person in the world should see it.

C'mon Beth, you can't let anything that's said here get to you. Mr. D speaks for no one but himself, and the same goes for me and everyone else.

Don't let other people tell you how you feel or should feel.

Ironically, I just told you how to feel.

"....I was going to try to stay away for a few days because my not feeling good has weakened my ability to deal with the drama here."
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/07/obamas-smear-offensive.html#comment-110596

Bethyboo,
I know just how you feel. Another generous post from you.

Can you get any antibiotics from anyone, until you get to the dentist? What gives you a tooth ache is the infection of the tissue around the tooth. If you could take antibiotics two to three times a day, for at least three days, your pain should start to cease somewhat after the first day or so. Amoxycillin or most any.