Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Woo Hoo?

Second!

Craig,
Yes, I do think there will be a rush in SD "coming out" now ... It's just sad that the MSM & DNC hated Hillary so much, that they would help BHO win ... Yesterday hearing was a farse .. but then, that's how most of this Primary has been played ...

What church will he join now?

Without the cover of Trinity he is just another muslim :)

Leaving Trinity --is he leaving all of the associations too?

Alicia, I hope you repost your last comment here. It was really a good read.

Ok, I am so for Hillary, but the "muslim" charge against Obama isn't fair.

I think he should join the Presbyterian Church of course he could really pander -he could join one, his wife another and his kids could convert to Judisim.

http://www.pcusa.org/

According to his bio -his community work began in this church--the ride on his bus must be very bumpy what with all the people under the bus.

The "Church of the Presidents" is really pretty and it's just a short walk across the park from the White House.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/Presidents/site12.htm

"Don't give up, Hillary has the popular vote and truly, all I can say is this: Denver." from the last thread posted by Alicia Knight

here is a video of one of the Clinton people. Y'all must be proud.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VeGPzk8Oca8

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Church Shopping -------------------------

Barack Obama – Muslim apostate?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0519/p09s02-coop.html

Dooty,

We are as proud of her as Sen. Obama is of Pfleger.

An Episcopal Church? He would have to make sure he joined the right branch too much controversy for him

He could be endanger of being seen with women and gay clergy.

That demonstration at the DNC RBC looked like a good place to pick up chicks yesterday. Any smart single guy in DC would have showed up with a Count Our Votes sign!

CS

The St. John's website provides details. I think the Obamas would fit in quite well and pew 54 is reserved.

http://www.stjohns-dc.org/

Dooty,

"We are as proud of her as Sen. Obama is of Pfleger."

Obama was not very gracious to Clinton when he responded to the Pfleger remarks. He basically said the remarks were true just inappropriate in public.

This is your candidate a divisive snob who has hornswoggled people into thinking he is something new and different when he is the SOS

Repost. just wanted to make a point!

Too bad she blew it then with those major character defects - inability to handle reality, lying, Rove tactics, staying with that rat of a husband. If she'd dumped him after the Monica mess and struck out on her own, she'd have been way more impressive.

Posted by: janice | June 1, 2008 7:43 AM

Janice, quite unnesary....You don't lend much to Unity. And that statement is just plain out of line and over the top! I'm an Obama supporter and I think you should rethink how you try and defend your candidate here.

These people have been sincere in their dedication to Senator Clinton.

Posted by: Chef Sheila Hussein The Nun | June 1, 2008 11:11 AM

He joined Trinity for political expediency, he resigned for political expediency!

Resigning now does not erase his BIG LIE - that he never heard or never knew Rev. Wright "said those things"! To believe that requires that one suspend all logic, reason, and common sense.

I'm amazed more hasn't been made of this obvious LIE. It's all the GOP 527's need. Hope they run with it.

The "Church of the Presidents"

That really is a beautiful old parish church, Jamie.

For years, the presidents were Episcopalians; I found that comforting in that it implied consistency, roots, and a moral commitment.

Much of that feeling has been lost as people seem to change denominations at a frenetic pace depending on personalities rather than ecclesiastical dogma in shaping their patterns of belief.

I think he should join Fousquare Gospel

http://www.foursquare.org/

Obama as 'apostate'

"Islam is a religion one can embrace but never leave. If one is born to a Muslim father, or becomes a Muslim by conversion, forced or otherwise, one is a Muslim for life; and should one convert to another faith, the crime is considered capital -- above all others in Islam -- and the punishment is severe.

Thus, Barack Obama, who was born a Muslim to a Muslim father and later formally converted and was baptized as a Christian may be a Christian to all the rest of the "infidel" world -- but is a Muslim apostate to Muslims."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/05/obama_as_apostate.htm

l

Reviewing various dominations, perhaps the Jehovah's Witnesses would be a better match.

http://www.watchtower.org/

Flatus

I love St. John's architecturally and then I particularly liked the sermons of Peter Marshall that I read years and years ago in "A Man Called Peter" (Pretty good if old fashioned movie too)

You don't have to be either a Christian or religious to find wisdom in those words. Unfortuntely to my mind his son has gone off into the mists of the evangelicals, but everybody to their own thing.

"But you gotta admit watching him is funny as hell. "

Yes he does share your "type" of humor. The more injury and insult the better. Also good for people who stare with pleasure at bloody bodies by the side of the road

GORDO: Here is the thing I have never understood about this "Obama is a Muslim!" controversy: Who cares? So what if he was? (Not that I think he is.) Is there a law on the books that says only Christians can be elected President?

I am NOT an Obama fan but, I must tell you, this is one argument I really don't understand or advocate. My 15-year-old son is getting ready to spend the summer in Morocco studying Arabic through a program funded by the State Department. One of the results of this experience I wish for is the combatting of anti-Muslim rhetoric. MUSLIM DOES NOT EQUAL TERRORIST. And, until we understand other cultures, we will never achieve global peace.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html

Hey Stooopid you are gross and highly inaccuate

Here here Ally,

Making Muslim a matter of hate is just plain breading prejudice and division.

I had an Executive Chef from Lebenon and a Muslim who was the sweetest and best boss I have ever had. I learned so much about his religion and he learn a lot about mine in those long quiet kitchen moments. He was a Democrat too and very very proud of his citizenship.

To treat Obama's middle name as a sign of his preference is just plain silly and therefore purposefully breeding hate for others as well.

God, sour grapes on here I see. What else to be expected?

Frankly, Clinton could have done herself some good with a smidgen of humility and a good lack of condescension. I don’t believe there is one humble bone in her body, something that seems to attract some women (and men). If she would have had less of an “it’s me or no one” or “I’m the only one”, she may have had a chance. That and running a campaign like a president would run a country…finances you know. She’s still paying off Penn. Millions. She’s not done yet because it’s all ABOUT HER, and she doesn’t give a rats ass about the Democratic Party or even democracy. Alex Forrest to the tee.

She wasn’t looking in the rear view mirror when the country saw the great need for change. It was to have been hers. How she reacts now will determine her political future!!!

Patsi, from your remark from the other link...you don't know me except from what I say about Hillary Clinton on here and that to you is what someone is all about. You need to get real. They don't like her and you hate them. Saw a lot of that yesterday on television. Adversity is a part of life and I've seen my share of it. Clinton needs to get a grip with it herself.

Sheila: Yes, I knew Chef Hussein (albeit not well) but we did have mutual friends (through our kids.)

Hey Sheila

I really like the idea of "breading" prejudice. Can we fry it up and get rid of it once and for all? : )

Ally -----------------------------

"Who cares?"

Many Muslims.

This is from the NYT:

"At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly, most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator Obama’s conversion to Christianity once it became widely known — as it would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export democracy and human rights abroad.

But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Killfile
Posted by: Karolenna | June 1, 2008 11:35 AM

What's up, everybody!

Obama will have a tough time at the "values" debates now. How will he explain the basis for his religious values now?

Perhaps a better fit is Joel Osteen

http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_homepage

Might just be a perfect fit

GORDO: Again, this article addresses the concerns of the fringe. Of the extremists. I simply don't subscribe to this being an issue in the big picture. Listen, all I am saying is there are plenty of reasons not to support Obama. I simply feel that this argument isn't one of them and promotes anti-Muslim rhetoric.

Just for pure accuracy: JQ Adams was a Unitarian and is counted among the 4 Unitarian presidents, but he also worshiped as an Episcopalian while president.

To be honest: I would love an atheist to run. Festivus for the Rest of Us!

now here's an odd little sect which might interest the spiritually storm-tossed candidate:

http://www.corg.org/

Ally,

Here's your pole. : )

http://www.k-gallery.com/kjournal/media/2/20071204-festivus-pole.jpg

"concluded that the Calvinist Samuel Adams had bested William Ellery Channing, the Unitarians' leader, in a debate on the doctrine of the Trinity. Then a year later, when in an exchange of letters his father good-naturedly drew him into a theological debate, the junior Adams revealed that, while not approving their intolerance, he tended to follow the doctrines of the Trinitarians and Calvinists; moreover, that he wanted no part of Unitarianism. He suggested that his father read a sermon on the divinity of Christ by a Bishop Massilon, "after which be a Socinian if you can."

As he matured, Adams struggled to develop his own system of beliefs, with his diaries containing rebuttals of both optimistic Unitarianism and intolerant Fundamentalism. Once at a dinner party in Boston he found himself in a loud theological debate with Horace Holley, a brilliant young Unitarian minister, in which Adams contended that Unitarianism's appeal was confined to "the liberal class who consider religion as merely a system of morals."

"

PoU

There are links about Puerto Rico above in Craig's article.

Predictably, Adams was often critical of what he heard or read of the emerging Unitarian denomination. He strongly rejected Joseph Priestley's materialism and ultra-rationalism, just as he was later to oppose the Transcendentalism of Ralph Waldo Emerson and Orestes Brownson, calling them "vipers" and "enemies of public virtue." To him Emerson's "Divinity School Address" was "crazy" and Brownson an advocate of "self-delusive atheism." Adams, feeling it was "everyman's duty [to] take the field" against these foes of public virtue, prepared and delivered a lecture on "Faith," positing that religious and moral faith is dependent on will. He was well acquainted with William Ellery Channing and admired his moral earnestness, though sometimes disagreed with his views on war and slavery. On the latter issue, the two in time became strong allies.

Adams evidently found comfort in corporate worship and regularly attended two services on Sunday when in Washington—Unitarian and, most often, Episcopal and Presbyterian

There's an interesting feature on Bill Clinton's recent emotional outbursts from "Vanity Fair" that may be of some interest to you:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/07/clinton200807

Jamie! Love it! I don't know if I could get away with it in Iowa. I have to fly under the radar a bit here.

When we first moved here my son was in Social Studies and the teacher brought up some famous story from the bible to relate a moment in history (apparently all the kids in the class totally got it.) Then my son says, "Who's so and so?" (Can't remember the character right now but I believe it was an Apostle.) Anyhow, he said that the whole room fell silent and all the kids just stopped and stared at him. "You don't know who so and so is?"

And the first time I went to a neighborhood party a woman I had never met before asked me "So, have you picked a church?" I was flabbergasted. I wasn't on Bainbridge Island anymore!

Thanks, Jamie.

I'm still not quite awake this morning. : )

Better hit that coffee.

This is exactly, EXACTLY why religion shouldn't even come into the discussion when it comes to presidential elections. Do any of you know what faith Richard Nixon was? Society of Friends, or "Quaker." Did it matter? Not at all. One of the nastiest and most frightening trends in politics over the past decade or so has been the need candidates feel to "prove" that they love Jesus more than the other candidate does. It may not be the religious test ruled out in the Constitution, but in practice, it functions the same. Religion and politics need to be separate worlds. Period.

If US voters want to damage relations with the Muslim world, from what I've read - this would do it.

He wasn't a Unitarian and if you studied the history of the religions you would understand that it is only a convenience of history that he is so classified

of course stereotyping and name calliing is the refuge of the especially stupid and ignorant.

Ally,

I've got a raft of cousins who are really unhappy that I won't be with them during the "rapture" so I know how you feel. : )

Purely for the sake of understanding literary references and historical events, I believe in studying the bible. Between it and Shakespeare you have virtually all the common expressions of the western world.

http://jdurward.blogspot.com/2007/04/happy-birthday-will.html

To be honest: I would love an atheist to run. Festivus for the Rest of Us!

Pete Stark for President
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/14/MNG7BOKV111.DTL

Church Shopping - true dat!

The "preachers/guest preachers" at this so called Christian church are not the only worriesome example of anti-white, anti-USA feelings - just take a look at the way the congregations react to the "preacher's" messages. Obama declares he was nowhere in hearing distance to this stuff (in fact, couldn't quite remember the last time he attended a service there) - but what about his wife? When was the last time she was there? and if she heard this stuff, wouldn't she have told him?

January: she's toast she's toast it's over
February: she's toast she's toast it's over
March: she's toast she's toast it's over
April: she's toast she's toast it's over
May: she's toast she's toast it's over
June: she'll be toast she'll be toast it'll be over
July: she'll be toast she'll be toast it'll be over

lol

Ally,

There's hardly a week that goes by without someone knocking on our door in an effort to proselytize us.

Fortunately our prayer wheel isn't far from the entrance and I'll invite them to watch as I use it in the manner for which it was designed.

When we were in Korea, we were given some delightful prayers and mantras. There is comfort in them because they imply consistency, roots, and a moral commitment.

My standby is: Om Ma Ni Ban Mae Hum

Invariably the proselytizers thank us and bow their way out.

Obama has two "Larry Problems".

Jamie: I agree with you on studying the bible...I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic school. But my kids are another story. My husband and I decided we would let them choose their own course. I don't know quite yet if we have done right by them or not. They have attended church with various friends and my son attended his first Bar Mitvah last weekend (three days of festivities!) I guess time will tell whether or not they end up as serial killers. So far, no missing puppies in the neighborhood (unlike Claire's block.)

sturgeone,

There's a funny truth to your post. What's different now, even HRC people must admit, is that she's run out of road.

Flatus: I'm not sure where my moral compass comes from, to tell you the truth. But I have two boys who have displayed lovely integrity and philanthropy (so far so good) and am married to the most honest man in America (he's from Kansas so that might have something to do with it.) Who knows what the future holds for me?

Sheila: Yes, I knew Chef Hussein (albeit not well) but we did have mutual friends (through our kids.)

Posted by: Ally | June 1, 2008 11:36 AM

Ally, YOu knew Hussein Ramadan? Did I know that you are on Bainbridge?

Ah Jamie! LOL Glad I could add to your mirth today.....and yes, After that gaffe I just checked my spelling of Mirth. lol two cups down and so feel much better.

there's toast at the end of the road...........look up, my brethren and behold the toast at the end of the road.......

the end of the road.......is denver.
lol

Sheila: Yes, we have discussed it before. I left Bainbridge about two and a half years ago though (for Iowa.)

OK kids. I am off to garden, do the grocery shopping for the week, get caught up on laundry, mop the floors and finish up some work. Just another relaxing day in Iowa!

Well our Hussein is now in california. his Wife developed heart problems. the best people in the world and I wish them well.

What church will he join now?

Without the cover of Trinity he is just another muslim :)

Leaving Trinity --is he leaving all of the associations too?

Posted by: Church Shopping | June 1, 2008 11:05 AM

Obama is cutting ties with Trinity not his ideology. He could just as easily go to the National Cathedral and feel at home. There is a church right across lafeyette square that most of the protestent leaning Presidents go to. Forgot the name. That is where President Obama would go, more than likely.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807

Jamie and anyone interested in seeing some points on unity for both candidates, here is some research.

just trying to show a little effort to give you guys some meat for the future.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807

Nick: Sorry my advice was a day late and a dollar short. It just occured to me this morning as I was reading the New York Times. That crowd was not just old ladies...there were some young, and most likely, single females in that crowd! If you want to get a woman, think like a woman!

".....Barack Obama's world...."

Those three words from Craigs blog said a lot to me.

"Watching the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) today, I was strongly reminded of two things. First, when I lived in a condo in San Diego I attended Homeowner’s Association Meetings where, I swear to God, the same bunch of rule-happy, petty tyrants were in charge. Second, this brought back ugly memories of court arguments in 2000 where fancy BS was being used to disenfranchise voters."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/31/unity-my-ass-on-to-denver/#more-2859

Daily Kos preaching unity is a little like Sitting Bull offering Custer mercy.

Jamie,

I've always thought the Daily Kos folks were rather nice.

Jamie,

Well it is Sunday and I'm still getting up from a long week. ;0)

Should I admit, I was in that church for one round to document b-41 in church? Its a wonderfully spiritual place and I was very aware of who else worshipped there. It was surreal.

Dailly Kos is besides that point. The writer is actually nice about Clinton as well. Put a positive letter on it.

Although, my girlfriend says that HRC is one of the few people who can pull off the canary yellow so well. However, yes, it needs to end!

PoU

The people who write for KOS are very nice. Most are extremely literate, and the posts interesting. Their commenters can be another matter just like everywhere. As long as you know that KOS positions are somewhere to the left of Lenin and read it in that light while double checking everything for that slant, it is a really useful site.

Obama's public persona is based on his Church
the title of his book, the community organizing were all church based. I guess it meant nothing, that he could so easily throw it away and simply join "the president's church"

It looks like he has no fundamental beliefs like his pretense of taking no special interest money.

Hollow and shallow.

Why did Obama join Trinity

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/04/29/why-d-obama-join-trinity-in-the-first-place.aspx?CommentPosted=true

He is a user.

Killing Her Softly
Hillary Clinton and the contradictions of the West.

" ...a resume you could print on the back of his driver’s license, a Rolodex apparently limited to neo-segregationist racebaiters, campus Marxist terrorists and indicted fraudsters, and a rhetorical surefootedness that makes Dan Quayle look like Socrates. “On this Memorial Day,” said Barack Obama last Monday, “as our nation honors its unbroken line of fallen heroes — and I see many of them in the audience here today…”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWE3MjMyMDM0YjkwNjEyNTM4OWZhYmExNzUzMDc1OWE=

It looks like he has no fundamental beliefs like his pretense of taking no special interest money.

Hollow and shallow.

Posted by: Church Shopping | June 1, 2008 12:46 PM

As someone who is deeply spiritual and not afraid to say so,,,,me. You must not understand what is feels like to be a deeply spiritual person like Obama.

I would have had a hard time letting my afiliation go because of a bunch of human beings. Afterall, God is who we worship and who we look to for true guidance. I have remained in a church that wasn't atune officially with my philosphy on womens rights and abortion.

It doesn't make me weak. It makes me stronger and more evolved to take comfort from 90% of the sermons and teachings while discarding the rest as a free willed and free thinking chrisitian.

When Obama denounced, it was with a measured decision. I like how he took time and really tought it over. Afterall, breaking with a church family is as hard as breaking with your own for a christian.

btw, Church shopping you sound like KGC.... If that is the case. Good to see you!

From Mike Allen's annoyingly hard to read (learn to use font and section headings!) summary of all things politics:

NOT WAITING FOR CONCESSION -- TIME’s “The Page” highlights an ABC News “Political Radar” account of comments by Obama adviser Anita Dunn: “Asked if Obama would wait to get a concession call from Clinton before claiming the nomination, Dunn said the onus was on Clinton now that the Democratic Party has firmed up the number of delegates needed to claim the party's nod. ‘He's not going to wait by the phone like a high-school girl waiting for a date,’ said Dunn. ‘That's not Barack Obama.’ ”

Kind of funny, but why the gendered language?

There is always an excuse for Obama's behavior
It's ok if Obama does it.

If it were Clinton the knives would be out

Hypocrisy is the credo of Obamabots and denial and delusional thinking marks every comment

.

Zakaria's new show is on. Finally some real international news.

Quakers

http://www.quaker.org/

It would be interesting to see how a Quaker congregation would react to incendiary oratory.

There is always an excuse for Obama's behavior
It's ok if Obama does it.

If it were Clinton the knives would be out

Hypocrisy is the credo of Obamabots and denial and delusional thinking marks every comment

.

Posted by: Church Shopping | June 1, 2008 12:56 PM

So OK Church SHopping. Be a grim reaper. Have a wonderful day anyway.

http://www.bethel1.org/history.htm
The year is 1784. The Methodist Church in America officially had its beginning. There are more than 4,000 free black men and women in the Maryland colony. In the Baltimore area, many of our free ancestors that are Christians attend the Methodist meeting houses of Strawbridge Alley and Lovely Lane. They probably chose the Methodist faith because of its anti-slavery stance. The Lovely Lane meeting house was built in 1774 and the black members were initially allowed to sit and worship as they pleased; however, as their number grew they were finding themselves restricted to certain areas for worship....

This might be the right place

"Quaker congregation would react "

That is some mental picture. : )

Absolute silence and contemplation and then someone is moved to speak. Everyone listens in absolute silence. The speaker finishes the tirade and sits down, followed by absolute silence and contemplation

I think it is time to mount & stuff the democratic party. Call in the taxidermist. It can be put on display and everyone can ooh and ahh about what a noble creature it was.

There is another way to split the donkey, one group takes the head, the other the ass. Any takers?

Bowman,

We already have the Democrats' braying ass right here.

Killing Her Softly

"How else to explain why their gal got clobbered by a pretty boy with a resume you could print on the back of his driver’s license, a Rolodex apparently limited to neo-segregationist racebaiters, campus Marxist terrorists and indicted fraudsters, and a rhetorical surefootedness that makes Dan Quayle look like Socrates. “On this Memorial Day,” said Barack Obama last Monday, “as our nation honors its unbroken line of fallen heroes — and I see many of them in the audience here today…”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWE3MjMyMDM0YjkwNjEyNTM4OWZhYmExNzUzMDc1OWE=

Quakers are pacifists by choice, I have my doubts that any one is truly a pacifist by nature, sort of goes against Darwin.

In the meeting I attended for many years, it is likely that there would be a response. Some white guilt, some outrage at the treatment of the downtrodden, perhaps a plea to be civil, then an uncomfortable silence until the elders shake hands and standup to signal meeting is over.

There is another way to split the donkey, one group takes the head, the other the ass. Any takers?

Posted by: Bowmanc | June 1, 2008 1:12 PM

I'd say comb out the fur, brush the teeth, and buff him up a bit and he more shiney and new than the last 40 years. I'm all for that!

You all have been saying "New Democrat" as something slimey. I don't think of it that way and say, climb on board for a little way more and see how it goes. You can always jump off and say I told you so.

But right now, you have no case when there is no history to a New Democrat.

OR just go about moving the population to have a new party. I would be open to that. I would love to have a third party.

In the meeting I attended for many years, it is likely that there would be a response. Some white guilt, some outrage at the treatment of the downtrodden, perhaps a plea to be civil, then an uncomfortable silence until the elders shake hands and standup to signal meeting is over.

Posted by: Bowmanc | June 1, 2008 1:17 PM

sounds like us crawdads

Heh heh

the only important primaries are the ones Obama wins
the only votes that count are his
the only opinions that have merit are Obama's

A personality quiz about your religious and spiritual beliefs...

interesting...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

A personality quiz about your religious and spiritual beliefs...

interesting...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Posted by: LushIsLinda | June 1, 2008 1:21 PM

Thanks Linda.....yep. I am who I think I am.

Lest we forget: nice nom de plume, but it does seem reminisent of "Flanders Fields" do you know anything about service, or like your candidate, is it limited to bring me a latte, sweetie.

EuroTom; 6:23pm, 05/31/08. Sorry bud.....but as many people as I've seen on this blog say that there is no hate...not me.....I REALLY HATE HIM .....for his OPPORTUNISM and his HIPPOCRACY and his ARROGANCE in believing he's running the show. That's just been seen again by his dumping his church in his "quest for power". They all said O-bot wasn't in the church when Pfleger made his remarks, they didn't say his wife and daughters weren't there being indoctrinated.

In 1907 Teddy Roosevelt made a speech, delining what makes an American....quote..."When you become an American, regardless where you immigrated from or were born, You became an American in exclusion to all else". For those of you that don't understand, you can't be, Irish American, Italian American, Asian American, you can only be AMERICAN. This should also apply to African Americans who at the moment are playing the race card, the way they have ever since the inception of the NAACP. Yesterday, I saw Roland Martin, on air praying for the Obamas, is he a minister, is there an AA out there who isn't. The hippocracy nauseated me after what their church says about her.

To threaten the party with losing their vote if BO is not the nominee is below disgusting. In comparison to 2000 and the Lieberman torpedo of the recount, we got a stooge instead of an intelligent president, now it's Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards, Richardson, Dean, Pelosi, et al who are playing Lieberman's part.

To those who think I'm an uneducated fool, still fighting a losing battle, I'm not, I think she should walk and take her people with her and fuck him in the general. The puppeteers greased his path and slid him in, now let them win it for him, they couldn't do it for themselves.

I'm not politically pissed(Rita) anymore, I'm discouraged and hurt at how dirty politics is, and how it so seldom reflects the will of the people, and how it spends even less time caring about them. I know that this is naive(still hoping for fair play) but HOPE does spring eternal........

John Q attended more Episcopol services and Presbyterian services and did not consider himself a unitarian

He is buried where he is because of his parents

More delusion and ignorance of history

The world according to Obot., Nothing happened before Obama

LiL

I may have to go look up those Quakers

1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (99%)
3. Neo-Pagan (97%)
4. Secular Humanism (95%)

In 1843 the American and Foreign Sabbath Union was organized to bring together an interdenominational movement to preserve 'Sabbath-keeping'. Justin Edwards, a Boston Congregational pastor, who had been a leader of the temperance campaign, was chosen to be its executive. The next year the National Sabbath Convention was held, presided over by Congregationalist, John Quincy Adams.[2]

Additionally, I could even quote directly from the Website of the Unitarian Universalist Association to support my claim:

"In 1815, at the height of the (Unitarian) Controversy, Adams concluded that the Calvinist Samuel Adams had bested William Ellery Channing, the Unitarian's leader, in a debate on the doctrine of the Trinity. Then, a year later, when in an exchange of letters his father good-naturedly drew him into a theological debate, the junior Adams revealed that, while not approving their intolerance, he tended to follow the doctrines of the Trinitarians and Calvinists; moreover, that he wanted no part of Unitarianism."[3]

http://www.macucc.org/president/JohnQuincyAdams.htm

To threaten the party with losing their vote if BO is not the nominee is below disgusting;

Politically Pissed,

Tit-for-tat my dear. Can you honestly say that when I have been patiently wating while watch most of this site say for months that if Clinton doesn't get the Nomination, They will vote for McCain.

Do you really think all of us "Others" don't feel the sting of that remark? At least I have been silent and allowed all of this out of respect.

I see no respect what so ever coming from you. I sincerely hope you heal someday and I also sincerely hope you ere on the side of our country and our children's future.

I for one would like to see my son's life not as threatened by tours in Iraq and my grandchildren's American dream not so threatened also.

Good luck to you and heal. You sound like someone I could like.

Good post, Chef!

Flatus -- Here you go!

This is from a friend who was actually inside the RBC meeting room yesterday afternoon.
_________________________________________

I know that today's ruling on FL and MI was extremely disappointing. I was actually inside for the second half after a very lucky moment in which four DNC officials actually gave us their seats if we promised to "yell and boo" loudly for Hillary. They were very low key about the situation and basically let us know that we needed to keep this really quiet. Upon entering the meeting, it was clear why they wanted us in there. The crowd was overwhelmingly supportive of Obama. I made sure to follow through with my end of the deal: I was very vocal. It was an extremely emotional experience in terms of feeling very alienated from the party. There was a five second pan to Donna Brazile just at the right moment (which makes me think she was already being watched for making facial gestures and the camera people were Clinton or McCain supporters) in which she made the most offensive and bored looking expression while Ickies was talking. It elicited a ton of boos and other comments. She had no idea she was on camera during that moment and it was clear that the camera person showed her purposely to expose her. It was very shocking to me that she would sit up there and make that face. It was extremely telling.

Overall, the experience was surreal. It was very tense during the second half and I kept thinking of all the people I have talked to over the last six months who have reported feeling alienated, angry, frustrated and generally left out. I remembered all of you and how disappointed you have felt. I honesty felt obligated to make some noise in that setting. We have spent weeks writing letters, sending emails, making calls and generally, doing everything we can to get the media and DNC to take us seriously. We have been respectful and considerate the entire time. I was thinking that at that moment, the country was watching and that was some of the only media time we have actually received in the last several weeks. I felt like it was my duty to be vocal and forthright with my disgust for the situation, as otherwise, how will the rest of the country (who thinks it's only Clinton out there fighting because that's all the media shows) doesn't even realize we exist? Leslie, who was inside the meeting all day, and Diana, who was also in the meeting all day, appeared to share my sentiments. Despite the fact that we were outnumbered 4 to 1 inside that meeting, from what I understand, we sounded as though we were equally matched AND we made sure to make the DNC feel as uncomfortable. While I normally wouldn't advocate this, at the same time, when will our dissent be heard? I decided that today, a little civil disobedience was called for in order to let everyone know that we here, we're not happy and we're not going anywhere. I want you to know that we were thinking of all of you today and truly feeling as though we were representing you in that meeting. I noticed the blogs were full of Obama supporters wagging their fingers and making comments about the "rude" behavior of Clinton supporters. The massive numbers of responses speaks volumes. They were shocked to see her supporters so vocal in their opposition to Obama. That type of behavior has always belonged to Obama's supporters (on a much more unaccpetable level). I think it was a real eye opener for them. Regardless, I want you to know that today, we all had our chance to voice our outrage at the meeting. Each of you had a voice in that meeting and we made sure that it was heard. Don't give up, Hillary has the popular vote and truly, all I can say is this: Denver.

Thanks POU, and heres to truth to healing on both parts of this Primary.

Alicia. Great read thanks!

The Republicans rejected the looney right by nominating McCain and the Democrats embraced the looney left.

Sheila,

It would be helpful now that Obama is the nominee for him to reveal a few things that take a walk away from his memoirs, his declarations about changing the electoral map and the primary campaign.

I think that given his lack of national legislative history (and the stupid refusal to even convene his European Affairs sub-committee) that he talk about who he would appoint to an Obama Cabinet.

And how he would have those departments work.

Not in terms of new politics and hope and change...

But in terms of government, policy and operation.

I think he has attracted all the people who are either entraced by or willing to settle for slogans and what they feel is personal charisma.

There are a lot more who will not be inclined to vote until they know more about details.

How our government will perform under his administration -- not the claims of what will be somehow accomplished -- would go a long way to drawing independents and disaffected Democrats to pull the figurative lever his way.

Hey Dooty -- Ya know, I was just on YouTube watching that and Obama supporters are leaving comments saying they'd like to "ass-rape that bitch to shut her the fuck up."

YOU Obama people must be so proud. And if you think violent hate speech like that is an aberration, I can assure you that it is not.

I certainly don't want to unify with people who threaten me with rape, malicious maiming, threaten my family with violent acts, etc. I know that they are hiding behind the anonymity of cyberspace, but still -- what kind of person even thinks like that?

I would wonder why anyone with any decency would want to associate with them.

9/11,

If its one thing I have learned about this candidate, it is his measured responce. All things in its own time.

Obama will no doubt be answering all your questions after the convention. I've read his website. Both books. All the GORDO stuff....etc. I've watched with incredulty at why he didn't do something I thought was politically more safe or intelligent and he has shown me how Time and Measure along with listening to the population is better than what I could have come up with.

I have learned to be patient. I am very sure that there is going to be more and more.

I am convi

hmmmm.....glitch.

here is a video of one of the Clinton people. Y'all must be proud.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VeGPzk8Oca8

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Posted by: yo soy Horsedooty! | June 1, 2008 11:11 AM

Have you been active in Democratic politics? I have and the damn thing gets testy a lot. Not only that, but I was working with the Gay rights march and parade in Seattle one year, and the divisions and bad feelings were ugly.

I do not see anything wrong with the people standing up to so called "leaders" in any organization. I've seen a LOT worse at union confrontations and public meetings. To feign outrage or surprise is really quite amusing to me. If you've lived so many years, this cannot be the first time you've seen such anger.

Oh yeah, some of the attitudes I have read seem to say "how dare these woman rattle the cages? Don't they know their place? They should sit submissively and let their candidate and their hopes be crushed.

Democracy is messy. Get used to it.

Alicia,

I certainly hope you are grouping all of us in that statement either. We will never get unity if you listen to the minority and think all of us are as gross.

No real change in the Gallup Daily

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107620/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Maintains-10Point-Lead-Over-Clinton.aspx

It's about time someone around here is finally taking a stand against the depraved insults this person spews.

There's an interesting feature on Bill Clinton's recent emotional outbursts from "Vanity Fair" that may be of some interest to you:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/07/clinton200807

Posted by: Politics of Utopia | June 1, 2008 11:55 AM

yes and I already posted that and made a diary at Daily Kos...

If interested here is the link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/1/7136/91958/238/526586

I do not claim to be a great analyst or a professional political person, but the Todd Putnam article was pretty damning of President Clinton. He did clarify that even though he is married to Dee Dee Myers, she did not contribute anything to the article.

Oh yeah, Vanity Fair is one magazine I buy religiously every month. The articles are excellent and it's a great English language magazine that keeps me in touch with news, politics and popular culture. Sadly I pay €8,10 per issue, but it comes from my shop, so 20% is returned in the form of profit. :-)

Obama Defeats FL/MI But Loses Support Of Feminist Lobby & Female Voters

"...the DNC made sure that they appeared sympathetic to Michigan & Florida voters without making a decision that would jeopardize their anointed candidate. Let me make this clear, today’s exercise by the DNC amounted to nothing more than a publicity stunt. The 30 person committee that rendered their decision today was made up of 8 Obama supporters and 7 DNC representatives hand picked by Dean; allowing Dean & Obama to garnish a majority vote without Dean actually having to cast a vote. The members of this committee had their minds made up when they announce the meeting, not after today’s public hearings.

The Clinton campaign naturally cannot be happy about this result, but more importantly the majority female support that Clinton enjoyed just took one more step away from Obama."

http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/

"I was making a crack at the expense of one of Jamie's many factual errors."

And what factual error was that. You have read the multiple postings by others that supported my statement.

Oh right, it doesn't matter, you are always totally right even when you are completely wrong and just keep repeating the error so that someone coming along later doesn't know you are lying.

We will never get unity if you listen to the minority and think all of us are as gross.

Unity, you're worried about party unity, but you'll watch your fellow posters stepped on and not say a word. Who are you to give moral advice to others? You can't even see that 9/11 is right. Either that, or you don't care.

hmmm....and let me say this one more time.

After all the nasy hate I have seen here in the last year. To be here still I think, would say a lot to you people.

I have never felt so alianated in my life! For just being an Obama Supporter for one.

But to feel the sting of things I am not responsible for. To get blown out of the water again and again for what I believe....

LOLOLOL Do you really think that you are going to get me to comply with demands that do not deserve my loyalty?

When you stop blaming me or any of my other Obama fellows of just existing.....when you stop making me Dog, Doots or anyone responcible for what happens here, then all the !@#$ will stop.

I'm hoping....now time to go visit my family.

Jamie,

I will say that his last post come have come right out of the mouth of Rumplestiltskin when he gets called on his name.

You know -- his name the one thing he cannot deny and reveled in the girl never knowing.

He gets called on it and gets so enraged, he crashes through the floor. (Yeah, that is a revised version. But it is my favorite. However, the one with his flying on the window on a kitchen ladle is kind of fun, too.)

I've wondered about something for a while, and maybe someone can explain it to me.

Why don't you all ignore his posts?

And why do you forgive and forget the most unforgivable treatment toward others that you see on a daily basis?

There must be something I'm missing. All these good people here watching abuse.

And surely you know the only way to change that is to ignore him. You must all know how he feeds on this.

HO

At times we have ignored him. The noise level from that quarter goes through the ceiling like a totally out of control two year old throwing a shrieking fit in a department store. It doesn't let up until he gets a response to the heels beating on the floor, then it abates for a while. Even when he stomps out in a rage, he comes back and screeches some more.

I'll give the silent treatment a try again tomorrow, but tune in with your volume on low.

1. There are multiple posts above about John Q worshiping as an Episcopalian and denying the Unitarian beliefs.

2. Don't know which Flatus remark you meant. I may have missed it.

Ignore him

and his enablers too

obambot's posts are not substantive, they are concerned with who in their view has the right to post
just as they want to determine who has the right to vote

How Much Does The DNC Value Democrats

Let’s assume that the vote of a democrat living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania – CD2 - is worth 1, then…

A Democrat living in Pittsburgh’s CD14 would be worth? 0.78
A Democrat living in Scranton’s CD11 would be worth? 0.55
A Democrat living in Erie’s CD3 would be worth? 0.55
A Democrat living in Allentown’s CD would be worth? 0.44

Let’s Assume that the vote of a democrat living in Cleveland, Ohio – CD11 – is worth 1, then…

A Democrat living in Cincinnati CD1 would be worth? 0.50
A Democrat living in Akron CD13 would be worth? 0.75
A Democrat living in Columbus CD15 would be worth? 0.50
A Democrat living in Dayton CD3 would be worth? 0.63

http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/

Clinton just whomped Obama in Puerto Rico.

Sheila, Dog: Rest assured that I am not lumping you in with the Obama people who are littering the blogs with violent hate speech and physically threatening remarks to anyone who would disagree with them. Of course not! I truly respect you both.

I hope you just think that you should take a spin around he blog-o-sphere and see what your fellow Obama supporters are writing, and call them on it. Do it for your candidate and for the sake of unity, to see what others are posting IN HIS NAME,and request that they tone down their nastiness.

And speaking of religion, if Obama really is the second coming of Christ, then perhaps all of his supporters would begin to ask themselves, "What Would Obama Do?"

Rape is not about sex. It's a violent assault. Making threats about this is also by definition assault.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/assault_battery.html

A) For Years is what was said. It didn't specify which years. Of the religions of the Presidents, Episcopalian is the most common.

B) See what I wrote about the moral center that comes from a heritage of belief. It wasn't in the least bigoted. It could be said about any human being with a familial religious heritage in any religion.

But it still remains a fact that of the religions Episcopalians has the largest number of presidents and the Church of the Presidents where most attended is an Episcopal Church St John's Cathedral

Of course this whole argument comes because Obama is a souless jerk who uses religion for personal ambition and clearly doesn't get anything but political validity from church attendance

Well I guess I'll throw my two cents in then go back to other things and lurking here and there.

I read all the comments left from both Hillary supporters and Obama supporters, both regulars and new comers.

For all those who don't like Obama and have said over and over again that you would vote for McCain if Hillary isn't the nominee that is your right.

Personally I no longer care who anyone votes for, me I'm voting for Obama if we do have elections. I had also said that if Hillary got the nomination I would vote for her.

Since the RFK comment I no longer knew if I could ever vote for her because of it and I'm thankful that as of right now I will never know if I would have to face that possibility.

I have said numerous times that the Country I was born into and raised is no longer the country I'm living in now. That America is Dead and we are all living under the illusion that we are a Democracy still.

I will put my vote for what I believe is the only vote to attempt a return to the Country and Constitution I was born and raised in.

I will put my Country, Constitution and the Democratic Party before my personal feelings which I see many here doing.

It seems that those here put there personal feelings before Country, Constitution and Party because their candidate lost the nomination.

And yes I do support Obama, however I still put my Country, Constitution and Party before any candidate or my feelings.

I just wish the rest of America could do the same.

I also think that its about time that everyone on both sides set aside their personal feelings and think about Our Country and stop the fighting before permanent damage to friendships and feelings occurs.

As I said above, just my two cents worth.

Take care, have a nice day and ...

God Bless.

It was Obama who claimed he would get the Clinton voters but his voters would not support her.,

Another Obama myth.

Posted: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:45 PM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under: 2008, Clinton, Obama
From NBC's Lauren Appelbaum
The lovey-doveyness of last night's debate may have come to an end. This morning, Obama said Clinton supporters would vote for him but the reverse would not be true.

From 2:01 PM to 3:12 PM... you took the milk train to get from there to here on that one.

I asked for an explanation. Now you gave it.

It was always your "fucking clue" to give me.

I never projected what you meant. Even when Sheila said she knew you felt you had gone too far.

Thanks.

Right the National Cathedral is the other big Episcopol Church in DC

I've never seen Terry McAluffe more angry (just now on CNN). Howard Harris made a big mistake yesterday.

911 -- I am so sorry for what happened to your daughter. Thank you for helping people to understand why any hostile threats of violence against women would trigger a post-traumatic response from rape survivors.

For the record, I have never called Obama supporters rapists. I have encouraged the civiliized Obama supporters in this forum to please go out to other blogs where Obama supporters are making heinous threats of violence against women and demand that they stop making these statements.

I would think that if you want to have your candidate represented in the best way possible, that would preclude any use of hate speech by his supporters, who are such prolific posters on blogs from coast to coast, that it would appear they represent a large number of Obama supporters. .

Oh and Doots -- I didn't mean to leave you out amongst the
Obama peeps who I think are okay. You have my respect as well.

Hillary wins big in Puerto Rico..those pesky voters just won't cooperate with the script.

Euro Tom said,

"Democracy is messy. Get used to it."

yes ET I have been pretty involved in Democratic politics since the JFK administration. Maybe not as much as some but sign in the yard canvassing the neighborhood that sorta thing.

Is this the same ET that said earlier in the year that if his candidate was not selected he would get mad and sit out the vote? Then got pissy when I called him on it? Yeah, I thought so.

get over yourself,

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Euro Tom said,

"Democracy is messy. Get used to it."

yes ET I have been pretty involved in Democratic politics since the JFK administration. Maybe not as much as some but sign in the yard canvassing the neighborhood that sorta thing.

Is this the same ET that said earlier in the year that if his candidate was not selected he would get mad and sit out the vote? Then got pissy when I called him on it? Yeah, I thought so.

get over yourself,

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

sorry for the double post I had a brain fart

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Flatus

That is what I read and understood. Ethics and standards of behavior can come from anywhere, but for many generations in this country at least, those standards were a reflection of religious teachings.

People as individuals or groups may not practice the ethics that are assumed proper for a well ordered society, but that doesn't make the ethics wrong.

Nick -----------------

Blitzer asked McAluffe if he agreed with Ickes about the MI decision by the DNC. McAluffe said 100% and then "exploded in anger".

Jamie, Your 3:54, agreed.

I wish McAluffe would runforthe Senate.

He would shake up the mediocre stuffed shirts who seem to dominate there.

Alicia,

I hate to beat a dead horse here. But...wrt the youtube vid I referenced earlier this AM you said that there were some Obama supporters that left comments saying to "Ass rape the bitch" I believe how you said it. I just looked and unless they were removed I don't find that. "Racist Bitch" was as bad a comment that is there. Can you please cite where you saw that?

thanks,

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

There are other choices besides McCain and Obama.

You gotta love Terry "Baghdad Bob" McAluffe. The ultimate supporter. lol

This one looks good

Kelcey Wilson Transparency advocate.[19][20] Announced candidacy February 19, 2007, on his blog.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_third_party_presidential_candidates,_2008#Libertarian_Party

sorry for the double post I had a brain fart

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Posted by: yo soy Horsedooty! | June 1, 2008 3:49 PM

Are you the same Horsedooty that goes on the attack whenever he feels personally affronted or when people calls him on his shit?

Yeah I thought so.

ET

Please, Take it easy. Senor Horsedooty and I have had our set tos at times, but he is a good person, who has ocassionally gotten heated over issues, but has never failed to come back and behave decently to even those who disagreed with him respectfully.

Jamie, he has never behaved decently to me. And he is in his mid 60's? pfffft...

Once again Obama fails to connect with Hispanic voters.

McCain does very well with Hispanic voters.

Another fainter hits the dust. : )

Does anyone believe that Mrs. Clinton can and will still win the nomination? If so, I'd like to really know the scenario of such a rosy prognosis. Because my hope of it happening is pretty well gone...

Educate me if you will...

EuroTom -------------------------

Yes!

Patsi

Stick around. We need all the dolphins we can get.

Hey Patsi, I hope you're not really leaving. I hope you'll stick around !!! You've written many things I really agree with and I consider you also to be a wonderful friend.

STAY! :-) Or if you are taking a break, come back soon!

Tom

It's late in Belgium and I"m off to bed...

Goodnight to all and I'll see everyone tomorrow.

Posting more is the best revenge

Do as Humble Observer suggests and ignore ignore ignore

BREAKING NEWS on “Whitey” Tape from Fox News: A TV Network HAS the Tape

Sure, ET, I can see her winning.

Sometime between now and the convention polls continue to reveal downward trends in Mr Obama's popularity and increases in his unfavorables. SDs take note of the trends and confer informally. Delegates start switching from Obama to Mrs Clinton, slowly at first, and then in a stream.

At the convention, Clinton has a clear majority of total delegates and is awarded the nomination.

No --I really must sign off. Here is the "teacher" mentality that has taken over this blog:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/972423,oust052708.article

Gordo: I'm still very skeptical about this "whitey" tape. If it truly exists, why didn't it surface during Obama's senate campaign or any of his campaigns before now?

Just asking.

Posted by: Patsi | June 1, 2008 4:54 PM

I am bereft!

GAKaren ----------------

There will be more info tomorrow from Larry Johnson.

Patsi: That article is horrifying. As a parent of a child that had some special needs when he was younger, I can only imagine how horrible this has been for the child and his parents. What in God's name was that teacher thinking?

As for leaving the blog, what's that they say, well behaved women rarely make history? Hillary didn't let sanctimonious poopy heads stop her, did she?

Worth Repeating

Hillary didn't let sanctimonious poopy heads stop her, did she?

Gordo: I know Larry Johnson says he's got the goods, but I just can't believe that something that explosive didn't fall into the hands of Obama's opponents before his run for the presidency.

Doots --
Since you asked -- here is the specific exchange I referenced in my earlier posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPyeKe-EFf4#f6cYcmX1Ia4

jokojay (6 hours ago)
I'd shut that old bitch up with a good ass raping!

3swelldogs
look...whatever you do to your mother you just don't need to be telling us.

jokojay (4 hours ago
LOL...I was actually referring to the double team I had with your Mom and Grandmother...it was awesome. You should have seen your Mom's reaction when I blew in her eye!

3swelldogs (4 hours ago)
you are a perfect example why a democrat shouldn't be president. you WOULD actually rape your mothers and children. see the way you are talking?? I'm sure if you have children you are teaching them to do this...in fact its probably a show and tell.

jokojay (4 hours ago)
Oh yeah, btw, your Mom swallows. But you already knew that didn't you?

3swelldogs (4 hours ago)
lol...keep it up...you're only proving my point about democrats. this is the kind of comments they make when they know they are wrong because they can't come up with a good answer. : )

jokojay (4 hours ago)
uh...ok. you throw out random no sequiturs and straw man observations then challenge people to provide "good answers" to them. typical and hilariously idiotic. say hi to your mom and sister for me. thanks.

gunslingr45 (4 hours ago)
kinda counting your chickens before they hatch? I see a slugfest coming at the DNC!!!

divalicias (5 hours ago)
Violent hate speech. Great way to rep your "unity" candidate.

jokojay (4 hours ago)
Reply | Spam
"diva", huh? Is that some sort of euphemism for "fat ass"? Lay off the Big Macs, Ben & Jerry's, and super size fries, hon. No wonder men let the door slam in your face!

divalicias (3 hours ago)
More violent hate speech from your filthy mouth Jokojay. Once again -- what a great way to represent your candidate. Good luck with that.

jokojay (3 hours ago)
yeah? thanks! and good luck to you with your morbid obesity, not to mention the accompanying high blood pressure and diabetes. but, hey...so long as you're a "diva" it's cool, right? lol @ u.

3swelldogs (3 hours ago)
you're a little kid aren't you...I can tell by the way your are tying...go away and let the adults play.

jokojay (3 hours ago)
hmmm..."your are tying". What exactly does this mean? You sound challenged in some way. Too bad. Best of luck overcoming your handicap in the future.

scorch2000 (2 hours ago)
Wow that whole conversation was hilarious!

"Roger Stone was just (1:40pm Central) on Fox News Channel during Geraldo Rivera's coverage of the Puerto Rico primary and stated that the "Whitey" video exists and is the hands of a "major news network" now. Stone states that the Clinton campaign and the GOP's RNC have been in a heated race to obtain the video.

Stone described the video as showing Michelle Obama using the phrase "Whitey" in a derogatory manner about white people."

http://sdo1.blogspot.com/2008/06/roger-stone-michelle-obama-whitey-video.html

GAKaren: Who would Sen Obama's political opponents have been before now? I cannot think that Sen Clinton would have used such a thing, considering the number of vile accusations that circulated about her family. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that he never really had to face opposition in Illinois ... unless one counts Alan Keyes who wasn't even supported by his own party.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. But unless this purported video is blasphemous or suggests violent revolution or something of the sort, it will likely backfire.

Thank God the "male coven" here is limited to a membership of one.

If the tape exists will there be a divorce.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhqaeb_hObY

Obama can always say he never listens to Michelle and never heard her say those things.

Gordo,

Is that the tape they found in Capone's vault?

If something pops out it will have been doctored, that's why it has never seen the light of day.

Besides, big deal if Michelle called someone whitey. . .She not running for president anymore than Bill, and I've heard of stories ready to go about his campaign trail escapades. So what if he left his motor running too long some where new.

I agree with Maggi on this one.

Nick if you are going to start warbling That Old Black Magic, drop by my song title game

http://jdurward.blogspot.com/

Throw Michelle from the Bus
by the time the election rolls aound Obama will be the one he is waiting for...the only one.

Obama can always say he never listens to Michelle and never heard her say those things.
Posted by: D-I-V-O-R-C-E

LOL

"the coven needs you. "

Darn straight, we have a few people to curse and you've got the dried bat wings and newt tails.... just wouldn't work as well without the whole recipe.

I'll let you pick the first victim... bribe ... : )

maggi: The Republican party imported Alan Keyes to Illinois because they literally had no one else after Jack Ryan was forced to abandon his campaign. (Sex scandal via Ryan's divorce proceedings wonder if Obama was the one that got the goods on him, certainly would be Obama's m.o.) I doubt they would let a Senate seat slip out of their fingers if they knew of such a damaging tape.

If it does exist, it probably isn't as bad as it sounds.

WICCA is a recognized religion whose membership is both men and women. You show disrespect for members of the US military who went to great pains to make sure WICCA was recognized on their headstones.

But service is just a bumpersticker to some. Just as the right uses soldiers so do some on the left.
Substitute any other minority group in your insult and see how you like it.

The tape is more recent and did not exist during the senatorial election.

Rez: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Obamabots love to tout Bill Clinton's bad behavior as one of the reasons no one should vote for Hillary Clinton so if you are going to go that route ... as Karl Rove would say, Michelle is "fair game."

But once again, in Obamaworld Obama (or his minions) is never responsible for ANYTHING because he is, after all, the Messiah, Lord, Saviour and all that good stuff ...

Fine Karen,

Never heard you complain about Gordo posting that crap every hour. btw, read my post i said big deal about Slick too.

Dog's Eye -- I appreciate your supportive comments, however it's not just on youtube that Obama supporters have written hateful things. I have been monitoring blogs all over the country and routinely find similarly nasty posts made by people who claim to be his supporters.

NIck -- Yes I know that rape is battery -- and assault in VA does not even require touching the victim. I thought that's what I posted. Brandishment, which might only be raising one's shirt to display a gun tucked in the waistband, is assault also. That act alone could get jail time in Stafford County, where we have a very aggressive Commonwealth's Attorney who prosecutes *everything.* Remember the lady who sat in jail for 2 months for throwing a cup of ice on I-95?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701560.html

I was not able to attend the RBC Meeting yesterday, although I had plenty of friends up there. I had a class to teach.

The tape supposedly shows Michelle AFTER Obama became a Senator?

I find that hard to believe.

Ever heard of reaching a "tipping point" - this "whitey" video could be it. Not out of character for Michelle - rip his eyes out - Obama.

Rez: I don't get the Gordo reference. People are free to post anything they want (within reason) on this blog. Maybe you think those with differing opinions should be censored. I don't.

Obamabots love to tout Bill Clinton's bad behavior as one of the reasons no one should vote for Hillary Clinton so if you are going to go that route . Posted by: GAKaren

You mean like this:

.......Bill, and I've heard of stories ready to go about his campaign trail escapades. So what if he left his motor running too long some where new. Posted by: Rezdog

Makes the constant cries of racism seem hypocritical when it is nothing but demeaning remarks about others due to some implied group characteristics.

Jamie
Thank you for understanding.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/02/23/pentacle/

Alicia,

that is not the youtube I posted don't know where you found it but as Dog said people say very nasty things on youtube.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Yeah troll,

like those news alerts about Bill's behavior gets posted on the hour every hour. Give me a break! lol

Ever heard of reaching a "tipping point" - this "whitey" video could be it. Posted by: GORDO

And even if it's not, don't we want to know everything there is to know about our "presumed" first lady and how she views her fellow Americans. That way there are no surprises later.

Obamabots think if Obama does it it's okay.

Obamabots know more about the Clenis then Obama's policy on anything

Obamabots response to anything critical is you are a racist.

Obamabots have an excuse for everything Obama does.

Obamabots think the world started last year.

WICCA: The cries of racism emanating from the Obama camp are very hollow. They cherry pick what they want to become enraged about.

Sexism and ageism dont even appear on their radar screens so it is no surprise that an Obama supporter would throw Wicca under the bus too.

It's all about race with them 24/7 and woe to those that would actually bring the subject of race up. ONLY the Obama camp can do that, no one else is ever allowed to do so.

"Rez: I don't get the Gordo reference, "-GAKaren

Gordo: I'm still very skeptical about this "whitey" tape. If it truly exists, why didn't it surface during Obama's senate campaign or any of his campaigns before now? Just asking. Posted by: GAKaren Author Profile Page | June 1, 2008 4:54 PM

Fine Karen,
Never heard you complain about Gordo posting that crap every hour. btw, read my post i said big deal about Slick too.
Posted by: Rezdog Author Profile Page | June 1, 2008 5:41 PM

Go figure *scratches head*

like those news alerts about Bill's behavior gets posted on the hour every hour. Give me a break! lol

Rez: Have you spent any time on Democratic Underground, Daily Kos, Huffington Post, Buzzflash etc.? The Clenis is always up for discussion with Obamabots. They have embraced the right wing's nastiest and most disgusting things ever said about the Clinton's as their own. Jamie had a very good comment about that up thread. (Or in another thread.)

They dissed her again and got away with it. politicallypissed

Why would anything change?
Become a Fox patron.

Later Karen. . all, . . need some fresh air

That's not here Karen.

Rez; I don't speak Obamaese. What are you trying to say? I'm actually on your side when it comes to this Michelle tape, btw.

i said big deal about Slick too.
Posted by: Rezdog Author Profile Page

Now you say that but in past you sang a different tune.
What a farkin' hypocrite and when challenged you run away WATB

Poll: Obama unable to defeat McCain in Ohio match-upBusiness First of Columbus
As Sen. Barack Obama comes progressively closer to nailing down the Democratic presidential nomination, a new poll of key swing states indicates his bid to win over Ohio might be tougher than expected.

A poll of 1,244 Ohio voters conducted earlier in May and released Thursday by the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute shows Obama losing to presumptive Republican nominee John McCain 40 percent to 44 percent. In a matchup between McCain and Democratic presidential contender Sen. Hillary Clinton, however, McCain loses with 41 percent to Clinton's 48 percent.

In addition, half of all surveyed Ohio Democrats would rather see Sen. Hillary Clinton win the nomination, versus 37 percent for Obama. Democrats who back Clinton say they would vote for her 95-4 over McCain, while only half would vote for Obama over McCain.

McCain edged out a similar win against Obama in a hypothetical match-up for Florida voters as well, while both Democrats trumped McCain in Pennsylvania.
http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2008/05/19/daily29.html?t=printable

As always, it's all about Ohio

Hillary was great today!

Rez / GAK

I also think this tape is fantasy. I can't help but wonder if anything does exist if it isn't a doctored version of something I saw several months ago.

It was hard to hear her but she was talking about kids in classes and lunchrooms separating into racial groups, more by a kind of habit and feelings of strangeness rather than hatred. You could hear her say something like "white kids there". The only problem is that she was saying that this was a BAD thing. That they should really try to get to know each other and spend time together.

I can see that if someone wanted to do some edits it could sound bad, but it really wasn't at all.

Chicago Politics’: How Obama Has Used Technicalities to Eliminate Opponents

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=105103

Jamie: I thought that Gordo and others had mentioned that the tape was Michelle speaking at their now former church. Was what you saw taken from something she said at church? I thought they already mentioned that stuff about Michelle and the lunch rooms' discussion earlier in the primary.

It's hard to keep up with this stuff, I just don't believe that there is a tape out there that will be a difference maker. It may make the Monday news cycle but with the MSM firmly in Obama's pocket it won't go anywhere right now.

Since the press will definitely turn on Obama if he becomes the nominee in order to prop McBush up, if the tape is real it might have a longer life if disclosed during the GE.

Michelle Obama statement coming soon"

"The devil made me do it."

the catholic priest guy is such a crap-for-brains he only will get four and a half minutes of fame......

Big Hit job on Bill Clinton in Vanity Fair.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/01/bill-clinton-fights-back-against-brutal-vanity-fair-article/

The timing on this one is perfect. Smear Bill right at the tail end of the primaries. Vanity Fairs circulation is about 1,000,000. Maybe they'll do an extra pressrun.

Larry Johnson appears to have the videotape of Michelle Obama that has been rumored to exist. He is gonna post it tomorrow.

"Now I know why people who have seen the videotape say it is stunning. Barack’s headaches are only starting.

Apparently its a tape of Michelle railing against “whitey” inside the Trinity church. Larry, who has yet to hear a conspiracy theory about conservatives he didn’t like, says that it was supposed to be the GOP’s October surprise. "

better a lover than a hater

Mrs Clinton's PR victory email:

Another big win! Today in Puerto Rico, the voters spoke with a powerful voice to say that this race is not over yet. And thanks to your support, we're celebrating another great victory.

When all the votes in Puerto Rico are counted, our popular vote lead will be even bigger. More than 17 million people have cast their ballots for our campaign, more votes than any candidate has received in the history of the Democratic Party. Now there can be no doubt: the people have spoken and you have chosen your candidate. We are winning the popular vote.

Every time the pundits count us out -- every time they declare the race over -- you, the voters, send a clear message that you have another idea. And you and I just keep winning races together.

Now there are just two contests left, the final primaries in South Dakota and Montana. I know I can rely on your support for these last two races, just as I have throughout the campaign.

Thank you so much for everything,
Hillary Rodham Clinton

thank you flatus for your un-wavering rational support of ms clinton........

http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/06/01/michelle-obama-whitey-tape/

"I’ve also been informed that Karl Rove and his allies have a copy of it and are using it to raise funds for independent expenditure groups. The tape, I’m told, will be disclosed as the GOP October Surprise. It’s a ticking time bomb."

TICK TOCK BARACK...

LMHLAO!!

Mrs Clinton's PR victory email: Another big win!

Glad to see it that letter.
Nice.

GAK

She was speaking before a group of young people, but it didn't look like a church setting, more like a college meeting room.

Gordo did say something about it being in church, so I could be wrong.

It takes a media village to savage a woman.

remember that short story "the lottery" by that lady writer?

The tape, I’m told, will be disclosed as the GOP October Surprise.
Posted by: LushIsLinda

Makes complete sense to me that they would hold it until they think it will do some good. The rumor I heard is that they don't want there to be enough time to recover before the Nov. election.

Can see clearly why they don't bring it out now.
They want him to get the nomination.

Sturg, I've never been known as a 'fair-weather' friend.

Geeze, youse guys!

tt

I'd say they have 3 or 4 tapes and this is a teaser......if it's released now it means everything is going according to the plan.

How's this for a line?

"I'm Not A Proctologist, But I Know Assholes When I See Them"

Not my line.

tt

."..... two three four sources (three who are close to senior Republicans) that there is video dynamite–Michelle Obama railing against “whitey” at Jeremiah Wright’s church. Republicans may have a lousy record when it comes to the economy and the management of the war in Iraq, but they are hell on wheels when it comes to opposition research. Someone took the chance and started reviewing the recordings from services at Jeremiah Wright’s United Church of Christ. Holy smoke!! I am told there is a clip that is being held for the fall to drop at the appropriate time."

If this thing were real, you can bet that every single network is killing themselves to get it on the air before 9:00 a.m. tomorrow rather than let Larry have the scoop. I just don't believe it.

9:00 a.m. tomorrow

Tic Tock

Some of the comments about the MLRO "whitey tapes" are so funny...

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5460

(# Neoon 22 May 2008 at 5:10 p )
"At this point the only thing that really matters is that Michelle Obama knows the truth.
If she, in fact, used the “whitey” label, may her conscious bother her badly as she sweats out the final outcome..."

LMHLAO!!

tick tock Barack...

yeah, Jamie...is it even "evening" where you are???

Tick Tock

is that 9AM EDT ?

Hey Linda I hear if you look really close you can spot Barack in the films of Dealey PLaza. You heard anything about this, gordo?

It would be like Bock Bock Borock to claim to be there.

All I said was that I didn't believe it. I was agreeing with Rez.

I'm not allowed to say when I think Gordo et al are full of it?

I've been known to feed youI.

Just kind to animals .. that's me.

It would be like Bock Bock Borock to claim to be there.
--Dick Dock

uh huh...LMHLAO!!

Just got in- It's a good thing for the Obama campaign that they sent Richardson to campaign in PR otherwise it could have been REALLY embarrassing. Way to go Hillary!

Does anyone know if the turnout is typically this low?

Yeah Jamie remember what Humble Observer said
start now.. Posted by: Dick Dock

Humble Observer. You guys are so funny. You make me laugh.
I just love these names. Don't stop.

PR does not vote in the general election

“Even though there is some enthusiasm, you cannot compare this with a general election in Puerto Rico,” said Hector Luis Acevedo, the local representative of the Democratic Party and a former mayor of San Juan.

Acevedo says the primary was organized in just under 100 days, after the DNC approved a change to primary from the original caucus. He says there have been fewer problems with voting than expected, and that 15,000 poll workers are on duty at the 1,786 precincts.

Although he said the turnout will be higher than past presidential contests here, nothing would compare to the numbers seen in 1980, when the two local political parties stood behind separate candidates. The pro-statehood New Progressive Party endorsed Jimmy Carter, while the pro-commonwealth Popular Democratic Party backed Ted Kennedy."

Does anyone know if the turnout is typically this low?

Posted by: Denni

About The Puerto Rico Turnout
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/1/164819/8287

But she still netted about 140,000 votes over him.

Forgot the link

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/01/1093667.aspx

Denni

With nothing on the ballot other than the primary in a place that had never had a primary before (up til now it has been a caucus) it was very good, just not as good as the Clinton camp wanted.

Local elections get massive turnouts. They take those issues very seriously and I think Hillary was hoping for something close to the same response to up the popular vote count.

Fox may have that Larry Johnson tape. They talked about it this afternoon.

See tape in this link.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/

I wonder if it will come out tonight before 9 tomorrow morning.

It's a good thing for the Obama campaign that they sent Richardson to campaign in PR otherwise it could have been REALLY embarrassing. Way to go Hillary!
Posted by: Melanie

Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, who endorsed Mr. Obama nearly two months ago, recently called Gov. Bill Ritter Jr. of Colorado, who has yet to endorse a candidate. “Hey, Ritter!” Mr. Richardson said. “After June 3, it means nothing. Those who take a little bit of a risk, he’ll remember you.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/us/politics/01dems.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&ref=politics

vadaryl

Geraldo? Maybe they did find it in the Capone vault.

According to Article 9, Section 12 of the Charter and Bylaws of the Democratic Party of the United States:

All meetings of the Democratic National Committee, the Executive Committee,and all other official Party committees, commissions and bodies shall be open to the public, and votes shall not be taken by secret ballot.

Interesting they had a private dinner the night before and at 4:15 yesterday they held another one.

Rules and Bylaws Committee Violates Their Own Rules »
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/01/rules-and-bylaws-committee-violates-their-own-rules/

Tick Toc

16 hours

Tick Toc Typo

13 hours

the rules were broken so maybe Hillary still has a case

But on the other hand they did take a public vote, so that might be good enough.

On leaving Trinity Church - absolutely, this is an issue that will be with BO from here on - even if he runs in 2016. The reason so many think this issue did not hurt him is there was not enough time for it to take hold for Texas/Ohio. It DID effect voters in PA. But, NC was the firewall for the Rev. Wright problem! I have been a liberal democrat throughout my adult life with zero tolerance for racial anything. It saddens me that I have been angered enough in this primary season to be willing to call a spade a spade, but it MUST be recognized that there is this pervasive false sense of things. BO won NC because 40% of the TOTAL votes cast on May 6 were Af-Ams with them voting for him 91%. Yes, he received 18% of the white votes that got him to the 58% of the total vote. I lived in NC for many years. Right or wrong the black communities support and vote for black candidates almost no matter what. The NC city in which I lived once had a very popular Afr-Am county commissioner, a man who was very publicly convicted of sexual abuse of a mentally handicapped teenage boy. He got off very lightly with a night in jail. When the next election came around, he was overwhelmingly re-elected by his mostly black district. They simply do not hold things of this nature against one of their own believing that even a flawed elected official who is one of them will be better than anyone else. The analogy here is the media interpreted Obama's big win in NC as evidence the Wright issue didn't stick. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Covenant They Made

"What if… Donna Brazile and a bunch of other Democrat loser, ebbing-craft, slipping-power, Pooh-Bahs (Dean, Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Dashielle, Kerry, etc, etc) had decided, after the Kerry debacle, that they wanted their very own sock-puppet to dangle just like Cheney-Rove had dangled GWB for six long years. Where would they find an idiot/naife ? Well, who better that the psychologically-damaged, conveniently mulatto, man-child, Obama? He of the stirring, though curiously content-free, speeches – this waif could be used with impunity, after all he had no provenance, no actual real world experience, no basis upon which to judge their proffers of ‘power’. How could he/they resist?"

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/01/the-covenant-they-made/

i can sleep well with a 140,000 vote victory no matter what the turnout was

I went for a bike ride this afternoon. On one of the main roads in Holland I saw a presidential campaign poster along the roadside. I don't when it was put up , but it made me laugh. I searched on-line , but I could not find the exact poster , or at least one that had the exact slogan on it. The slogan on the poster I saw read: "Put them back to work for you." Anyway , the closest poster I could find to it on-line was printed in the same colors as the one I saw. Here's a link to it:

http://ronwade.freeservers.com/CarterMondaleFullColor.jpg

I don't think Obama is a puppet, I think the reason the Dem power base is coalescing around him is because they are thrilled to be out from under the Clinton's thumb. 16 years of the Clintons? By God let's hope it's not 24 or more. New blood, people, new blood.

For LL , thanks for your sympathy about the Pistons. The Lakers have always been my favorite basketball team , with the Pistons a close second. So , I will be just as happy if the Lakers win the title as I would have been if the Pistons won it. But , I am very excited about my Red Wings possibly winning the Stanley Cup tomorrow night in Detroit. That would be AWESOME!

Doesn't Clinton's official site link to "No Quarter"? Isn't that the site with a couple of posters under investigation because of the death threats to the Obamas?

Clinton must be so proud to be supported by such a racist hateful site. Yup, she a uniter, all right, a real uniter.

They may not be indicative of all of her supporters, but she now has an obligation to disavow that sort of 'psychologically damaged' hatred and ugliness waged in her name.

Relax...

Nope, it's pretty indicative of most of her supporters. Racist and sexist, but it's the other kind of sexism in where the only reason they support their candidate is because she's a woman.

I think all that crap about the 'sexism' they claim Clinton has been the victim of is a rationalization for their absurd treatment of Michelle Obama. The names that woman has been called, and now 'Democrats' are offering to pay money to find 'dirt' on her? Just disgusting.

It is very interesting how closely Hillary's minions sound like Liberal versions of Dittoheads (Rush Limbaugh lemmings).

Hey Craig, (not that you read this) or some web-guy for CQ:

This site doesn't work too well with Firefox, which is lame, because everybody uses Firefox these days. C'mon get with it.

Also, make the last post first so we don't have to scroll down every reload. That would be splendid. Thanks.

Champ:

re:"It is very interesting how closely Hillary's minions sound like Liberal versions of Dittoheads (Rush Limbaugh lemmings)."

It is so funny you say that because I have thought the same thing about Obama supporters at sites like DailyKos and HuffingtonPost.

Dog

It hit me that way too.

There has been bloc voting throughout this whole election whether women, hispanics, black, blue collar etc. Most of the time blocs break up a little when combined with other influences i.e. blue collar/women, white collar/women that didn't really have anything to do with "racism" until fairly recently.

It isn't surprising that Sen. Obama has been getting 75 - 90% of the vote of AA. They consider him part of their group and they are proud of him. It's only recently that there has been severe AA animosity towards the Clintons and most of that was created by the Obama team in SC for just that purpose.

"...which is lame..."
--champ

do you realize how lame using the word lame is??

how old are you?

Nick, if you're trying to win some award for "most offensive", you did it with your first post, no need to try so hard there buddy.

1 - I'm not a 'brother', I'm a 'sister' and I don't dance.

2 - If you're going to use words like 'misogynistic' and 'racist', you should learn to define them first... big ups on using multisyllabic words, though. Points lost on using them inappropriately (must have evidence of misogyny and racism to make the accusation). Sorry, Nick, because I was pulling for you!

3 - The fact that anyone felt comfortable enough among the NQ crowd to post racist comments and death threats against a presidential candidate tells you what kind of site it is. Far from 'Mr. Rogers Neighborhood', closer to 'Birth of a Nation'.

Do you think Hillary would feel 'at home' at that site? Is that her kind of place? Does SHE use the language spoken there? Has she kicked in cash to track down dirt on Michelle Obama?

Do tell. Personally, I think Clinton is hauntingly ambitious and sadly power hungry, but I don't think she's completely crazy and much of the stuff written there requires psychiatric analysis.

4 - Feel free to rejoin the human race at any time. Just sayin'.

Larry Sinclair Covered In New Republic

Scenes From Today's RBC Hillary Protest

"Larry Sinclair, the Minnesota man who took to YouTube to allege that Barack Obama ... is one of the belles of the ball.

He's not kidding. Clusters of people in Hillary shirts ask to take their photo with him, one woman covered in Clinton buttons introduces him to Greta Van Susteren, and he estimates he has handed out 500 fliers. "You could improve your credibility if you downplayed the gay sex and focused on the drugs," sagely advises one Hillary supporter with auburn hair and elegant makeup. But in this universe, Sinclair's credibility doesn't seem to be suffering too much."

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/05/31/scenes-from-today-s-rbc-hillary-protest.aspx

So Jamie (and others), AA's brainlessly vote for an African American candidate, no matter what, but white women are simply voting their interests? Then why didn't Lynn Swann get more than 13% of the black vote in the Pennsylvania Gov race in 2006, if we simply vote on the basis of skin color? Your statement is ridiculous, untruthful and falls into racial stereotypes. Bill Clinton caused his own demise in SC. For ONCE, can the Clintons take responsibility for something?

Uh, the media is going to use the word 'lame' incessantly in a few months or less, as in 'lame duck' president. You don't have to be so bogus just because I am so radical with my totally tubular diction. Am I dating myself?

I don't read comments at Huffpo or dailykos, so I'll have to take your word for it. There are sheep on both sides, to be sure, but it seems like the Clintonites get their daily talking points in the morning and go forth and proliferate them throughout the blogo-sewer. That's my new term by the way- you heard it here first.

Hmmm, a presidential candidate engaging in gay sex out of wedlock? Is he talking about Huma Abedin? Cuz you KNOW Hillary's shoulders have got to be a little tense after a hard day's campaigning.

Mr. D

That isn't what I said. I said that we all tend to vote for the familiar or those people with whom we feel kinship or mutual pride, though other influences can lessen that effect.

The AA community was presented with a handsome, well spoken, intelligent man with a beautiful family who just happened to look like the best of their families. He asked for their vote and they had no reason to deny it other than old loyalties or unfamiliarity.

Why do you think Sen. Clinton's most hard core group of support is white women over 40. They are looking in a mirror when they see her as one of their best.

It's not prejudice. It's human nature.

Yeah, right Gent. There was nothing wrong with what Pfleger said. I'll give a dollar to anyone who was genuinely offended by his comments. I'm sure my wallet will be full in the morning. Obama just has to reach out to all the Hillary cry-babies, which I think he has very respectfully. More gracious than I could be with that bunch.

I could write a novel in the time it takes to get a response. Don't worry, I'll get bored of talking to myself eventually and then you'll be rid of me. I was invited back by one of the regulars though, so blame her.

How sad that Craig's site had to turn into a site loaded with Racist, Bigots and Sexists.

So very sad.

I will not be coming back since this site is to sick and toxic for me.

AP

They are just passing through because of the HuffPo copy today. We can only hope they keep going since they can't behave themselves.

How sad that Craig's site had to turn into a site loaded with Racist, Bigots and Sexists. Posted by: anon-paranoid

He owes it all to this election.

It wasn't FranSC I was talking about. It was Champ.

Nick, was it sexist when Tina Fey used the word 'bitch' and said that 'bitches got things done'?

Did you answer my questions?
Do you tihnk Hillary Clinton would feel at home at that site?
Would she be proud of what you guys do there in her name?
Does she use the language used at that site?
Has she supported the Democratic Right Wing's attacks on MIchelle Obama? Has she contributed money for the investigations?
Maybe the media should look at the behind-the-scenes between Clinton and NQ... does she still link to that site?
Now I'm curious. I think others should be too. Maybe I'll get right on that!

The Democratic Right Wing, taking its cues from its "intellectual" (?) predecessor, the Republican Right Wing, and has followed in the family tradition. Republicans thought of AA Dems as 'fools' for voting en masse for Democratic candidates. Hillary Clinton won her senate seat with 90 percent of the black vote. We weren't bigots then. We typically vote for Dems between 75 and 90 percent, depending on the candidate.

Now the DRW attacks AA voters for the very thing the RRW did before. Wasn't Larry Johnson a Right Winger before founding No Quarter? I'm asking because I read that somewhere. How curious that 'Dems' at that site behave like Right Wingers. The Democratic Right Wing..

Hey
I love the
OBAMA TROLLS!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep it going

Love you people
Big SMMMMOOOOOOOOOCH.

LOL

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote divided government
Vote McCain

I didn't say anything racist, bigoted or sexist.

Jamie

There are no trolls
Not here!!!
Just sweet kindly
Obama supporters.

Shame on you
for calling them trolls.
te he

Is there no music tonight??
Nick, music
Jack, music
Please??????

I want to dance

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote divided government
Vote McCain

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Larry_Johnson

Larry Johnson a rightwinger?
Typical Obama smear --if you don't support Obama you are a racist, stupid or a rightwinger

It's going to be very lonely on the bus

Fiddler on the Roof, in japan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGoRo-nPLOM

Champ

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/quitters-sometimes-win.html#comment-93276

Rotten rightwing rumors that the Obama folks like to copy.

No Quarter was a right wing site until this election. It was pretty well garbage then and there hasn't really been any improvement.

jamie I thought during the Plame outing it was pretty good and now it is second layer whale crap. I thought there was some credibility since he was in the service at the same time Valerie was. Now not so much.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/10/19/valerie-plame-wilson-speaks-muzzled/
No Quarter and Johnson a former CIA agent were very supportive of Valerie Plame.

It is not now and never has been a rightwing site

Do I owe you a dollar Jamie, is that what you're saying?

Ask Valerie Plame, is THIS the same Larry Johnson:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/883raiiu.asp

"Self described Republican"

Same guy?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/media/july-dec03/leaks_09-30.html

"I say this as a registered Republican. I'm on record giving contributions to the George Bush campaign."

The site is still good but because Johnson is a Clinton supporter now he is all bad

that is a lot of horsedooty

MSM Begins The Obama Basting: “Dirty Barack Obama”

"Suddenly, now that CNN thinks they have gotten rid of Hillary Clinton so that they might have a weaker candidate for John McCain, the basting for the roast begins, just as predicted by anybody with a brain.

Suddenly discovering what we already have known about this pig for a year or longer, here’s CNN telling you what a dirty politician he really is.

Indeed, Indeed, Indeed. What we have here is a Dirty Politician and a panderer. A bambzooler. A hoodwinker. A man who kills off whatever is in his way. A Chicago Thug, just like we all knew he was while CNN pretended not to notice."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/01/msm-begins-the-obama-basting-dirty-barack-obama/

From the Weekly Standard

ON SATURDAY, former CIA analyst Larry Johnson gave the Democratic party's weekly radio address and excoriated President Bush for not having fired Karl Rove and others in connection with the leak of CIA officer Valerie Plame's name to the press. This followed Johnson's appearance before a panel of House and Senate Democrats on Friday, where he made similar criticisms of the president. A self-described Republican, Johnson argued that the failure of the president to fire Rove and anyone else supposedly involved in the leak had severely damaged national security and would certainly hamper future efforts to recruit informants in the war on terror.

yeah he's a terrible righwinger

Same Larry Johnson?

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2006/09/30/are_you_a_republican/

I have a feeling that Larry brought the Republican Right Wing tactics with him and the Democratic Right Wing fell in line.

Clinton should be so proud.

Yes. I was truly offended that any one much less a supposed representative of God would in the presence of "worshipers" insult and demean another human being while egging the crowd on to cheer and applaud.

Thank goodness I gave up Christianity or I would have been even more upset that these people thought this was the way Jesus would have behaved.

You might have missed the question "Plame": Wasn't Larry Johnson a Right Winger BEFORE founding No Quarter?

As far as I can tell, he's just a winger who changed his label... the tactics are the same, from what I'm reading over there.

So why hasn't any other major blog site had death threats to the Democratic nominee? What is it about THAT site? Are there other sites where this is an issue, supposed Dems threatening to kill the Dem nominee? I'm asking, because I haven't heard of any.

He was right wing Republican. Starting with Plame he has been steadily moving left, but he still uses the same slant, rumor, twists, and out of context to inflict damage.

It will be interesting to see if anything is produced tomorrow morning.

Hey Clintonites who are going to vote for McCain: Are you going to question him about why he didn't come to Hillary's defense when that woman asked "How can we beat the bitch?" Or are you going to ask McCain to repeat his ugly joke about Chelsea, saying she's the child of Janet Reno and Hillary?

I must have missed it, but I thought those two things are pretty sexist. Oh yeah, there's also McCain calling his wife a c**t.

Nothing you have posted makes him a winger
in fact everything you have posted says he isn't

from the TPM link you provided
re You a Republican?
By Larry Johnson - September 30, 2006, 12:42PM
I once considered myself a Republican. In light of the record of the Bush Administration and the Republican controlled congress, I can no longer claim to be a Republican. Now we have George “AWOL” Bush and his sidekick, Dick “Five-Deferment” Cheney calling Democrats who question their failed Iraq strategy, “cut and runners”.

Meet Tammy Duckworth, Democratic candidate for Congress from Illinois and combat veteran. ....

Posted earlier on this site were example of threats of violence against Clinton,

You must posted no evidence Johnson was a rightwinger. Not all Republicans are rightwingers.

killfile

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | June 1, 2008 10:21 PM

You gave up on Christianity because Christians aren't perfect? Isn't that the point?

Hillary is a public figure running for the supposedly most powerful office in the world. She deserves to be scrutinized and commented on. She asked for it. I think it's silly you allow the media to play with your emotions like that. It is one guy, in one church at a service you didn't attend. People say stuff- you're going to be offended by everybody who says something with which you don't agree?

Obama , his ministers and wife have said far worse things about Clintons.

I think I'll go with McCain

You and your ilk defended David Shuster so STFU

People say stuff- you're going to be offended by everybody who says something with which you don't agree?

Posted by: champ | June 1, 2008 10:25 PM

that's the official policy of the Obama campaign'
All offended all the Time about Everything
so chump what is your point

Last comment of the night, gotta' get ready for work.

I don't know if crazy little things like 'facts' are allowed on NQ, but you might want to share this with the flaming angry:

http://journalism.org/node/11275

CNN has been significantly more 'pro Clinton' than any other cable news network. MSNBC has been kind to Obama and Clinton (slight tip in Clinton's favor).

Does the RNC know about that site? I'll bet ya' they're willing to pay cold hard cash to keep it going!

MSNBC has been kind to Obama and Clinton (slight tip in Clinton's favor).

you are insane if you think MSNBC has been biased for Clinton

Plame, are you seriously just not following the question? I asked if he was ONCE a winger... he was. I commented that I think he's just changed his label, but I don't see a difference in behavior. Tsk tsk tsk...RIght wing attacks on the Democratic nominee, almost none of it based in fact... :shrugs:

LOL, SERIOUSLY the last post... did you bother to click the link 'demogague'? If you had, you'd realize that was an independent study. It was objective, and Clinton has not been mistreated. There's just a bunch of whining about her being mistreated.

Heck, Obama catches flack for things OTHER people say. Clinton isn't questioned very long about her OWN lies. If the Tuzla video played as many weeks as the Wright video, she'd have had to drop out of the race back in March, at the latest, in April.

that is a lot of horsedooty

>

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

You have produced no evidence that he was winger just that he was a Reublican and nothing you posted said otherwise

The pieces you posted show nothing that would indicate he is anything other than a former Republican

I wasn't talking to you, Mr. Spelled-Your-Own-Nickname-Improperly

supposed to be a smile there in the blank spot

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Don't call Me Nigger, Whitey - Sly and the Family Stone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B29DV9ly6DE

I gave up on Christianity because I don't believe in it, not because of the other people who do.

Yes I was offended. Not because I disagreed with what he was saying, though I did, but because of where he was and who he was. This man is supposed to be a "spiritual" leader and he was savaging a woman while violating one of the major commandments about not bearing false witness.

He shouldn't have been chastised, he should have been sent to a non speaking monastery for the next 20 years to contemplate his words.

Posted by: champ | June 1, 2008 10:35 PM

you are in a public forum chump

"Mr. Spelled-Your-Own-Nickname-Improperly"

Can't debate the truth, slam the punctuation.

champ= loser!!!

Denni

You have to be kidding about MSNBC. From "thrill up the leg" Matthews to the Olbermann screed to the practically non stop slavering adoration of Obama and misogynist remarks about Clinton, you would think he was buying advertising blocks 12 hours at a time

Maybe people tend to focus on the minute details that add up to absolutely nothing, because facing the facts of reality is way too difficult....

Denni
Respecfully disagree! Theres a reason why after all these years watching MSNBC I suddenlly about the time of the New Hampshire primary I quit them!!! K.O. loved him till he crossed into the same Clinton HATE and Pro OBama love fest!!! Thats not Journalism!! No Thanks but for those of you like it ENJOY.

Still light out here. Must be what he's smoking. : )

lol : )

Burrito, Jamie

Thank God, there are some grown ups around.

Burrito is that like theold Hippie parable.
"Reality is for those who can't face drugs";-)

Jamie, How do you do it? Day after day mildly correcting , with cites and links all the tons of BS that is deposited by every newbie/troll that appears.
Is it drugs, meditation, sainthood?
Whatever, you are one of my favorites in here.

Patsi if your truly gone send me an email to Whskyjack at yahoo.com, I want to keep in touch.
Anyone else can too. If you are too offensive yahoo has a good killfile
Jack

Jack

I'm a semi retired researcher and editor. I do small things out of home to supplement income, but I would go nuts without things to chase down ... the curiosity habit is too deeply ingrained. This place just feeds the addiction, most of the time pleasantly.

Today was not a good day. : )

Jack,
Life is hard...then you die.... I never heard that parable before but, yes , I think it applies.

Patsi,
You cant leave; I love it when you say what you mean without mincing words. Even though your words sometimes shock me, I still respect your right to express your message.

Don't go Patsi! Who else will ferret out the sexism in a statement like...I prefer McDonald's french fries over Wendy's.

As I have said before, all politicians are liars and thieves.... the trick is to beat the Vegas odds and pick the best of a bad lot.

The O-bot supporters criticize Hillary's judgement on the war, The Clinton supporters criticize Obama for not knowing whether he has any judgement at all, and we criticize each other on this site because we are defending our judgement.

We need someone who can get things done, it ain't the neophyte.

being an ass is not an attribute

(omg - did I write that out loud?)

My friend and I will not vote for Obama but our husbands who are racists were going to until yesterday when they watched the Rules Committee make that ridiculous decision on Mi.Awarding undeclared delegates and even giving some of Hillary's to Obama was the last straw.Now,even these two men who are life long strong democrats will now vote for McCain.

Ruth

I voted for Obama once, and probably will again, but I don't need to defend him to you guys or anybody for that matter. He's big boy and already has people to do that. I'm not really in the blogo-sewer loop and haven't been working on my arguments for months like you have. I don't get any Obama newsletters, I haven't given him any money, and I don't even watch TV, which is from where most of this vitriol originates.

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | June 1, 2008 11:11 PM

being an ass is not an attribute

(omg - did I write that out loud?)

Posted by: unlikely_burrito | June 1, 2008 11:13 PM

Jamie
Here is my wife theme song
She went through 10 years of marrage hell with a verbaly abusive husband.
This song helped her get through it.

Tom Petty, I won't back down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2N7ZAKcXE

Jack

tick tock
1o hours

Okay Ruth, let me get this straight. Your husband and your best friend's husband are racist, but curiously, you and your best friend some how aren't? Racism was a minor flaw, like not mowing the lawn or letting down the toilet seat. So now we're supposed to be surprised that these racists found a reason to vote for a black man for president?

Like Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction..."I'm tryin', y'all. I'm tryin'"

oh look the sock puppets are playing in the poo and smearing it all over each other

Sorry, but I do not "get" the need of the Obama people to continue to act ungraciously.

If someone would be willing to explain this to me, I would be very grateful.

Thank you.

Hillary keeps doing better and Obama has been losing ground.She even won his core groups today.In fact she won in every group.
She needs to go to the convention and fight for nomination.She has nothing to lose.We don't need another coronation.

Ruth

Where was HIllary's judgment when she was selling pardons through her brothers? How is that defensible on any level at all? If the Clintons had no other scandal in office, the whole pardon ordeal is enough to justify keeping them out of the White House forever.

Well I went through a ten year marriage, but it wasn't hell, just a bad idea. He was a rotten father, but he's spent the last 20 years making up for that and is really a pretty nice guy. He seems to have finally grown up. Wife number four is a treasure.

just a bunch of Clinton haters
are you another who either wishes you were Bill or wishes he would make a pass at you.

What a pile ot crap

Nothing good to say about Obama just hate hate hate the Clintons and for bullshit reasons.

Good Night all

Enjoy the night shift.

Burrito,

Because except for a few Clintonites, you guys keep firing at Obama. So we keep hitting back. Show some class and acknowledge that Barack ran a better campaign with a better strategy and you just might see some Obama supporters say nice things about Hillary. Two way street...

Jamie
I understand the love of the hunt. I wish this site was set up where threads could break up into converstions.
Any attempt to carry on a conversation either gets broken up by a change of threads or by the volumes of troll poo and the indignant responses.
I used to hang out on usenet where topics could be discussed for days. Often breaking into sub threads and even off topic conversations. Where ever the ideas went.
I learned a lot about topics such as gun control, global warming, alternative energy.
Bio warfare 2 years before 9-11. Given the current political climate, I wouldn't try to dig as far into it now as I did then.
All from doing research to support my argument. I admit, I had to change my mind but not easily;-)

Burrito
I am still looking for those Ohio Numbers
I found this web site
No state numbers but does break down the voter registration by congressional district, county and zip code
http://www.cleveland.com/pdgraphics/interactive/ohiovote/
Very interesting at least to me.

Jack

Good Evening bloogers,
I'm late to the Sunday Trail Mix party today.

Hillary delivered a rousing and energizing victory speech this afterroon! No matter how Obama-pundits tried to turn her speech into a pre-consession
oratory, it clearly was not. She talked about how she would fight on and
that the majority of voters have chosen her as their candidate. She said again that every vote must count, a reference to the Michigan primary votes stolen from her and given to Obama on Saturday in that charade of a DNC committee meeting.

I doubt very much that Hillary will suddenly drop out of the race on Tuesday
or Wednesday as Obama supporters continue to tell us she will, even if Obama is declared the nominee. She will take her time and weigh her options. She has won the popular vote which is a fabulous accomplishment in view of the fact that Obama outspends her and the media has unfairly trashed the Clintons.

The fact that Hillary won again today 68% to 32% is an embarrassment for Obama because it reenforces the glaring fact that Obama is not winning over large segments of voters like Hispanics. Exit polls show Obama managed to win Latinos in only two states which had a low percentage of Hispanics. Add to this the fact Obama has lost even more white women voters in the last two months and lost more working class voters than any presidential candidate in history, it's obvious he's barely limping to the finish line.

In spite of the fact that most polls show Clinton a stronger candidate than
Obama against McCain in the general, winning swing states he lost, the
DNC and pundits have fallen in love with him to the detriment of the
Democratic party.

If the women I speak to are any indication, Obama will not be earning their
votes this November and huge losses of female voters will hurt him, make no mistake.

No matter what happens with super delegates early this week, Senator Clinton has power right now. Over half of Democrats have voted for her and the Democratic party is NOT unified.

The Democratic party is chronically divided as we watch Obama dragging to the end of the primaries, lugging all the ranting, racist ghosts of Trinity Unified Church behind him.

Whoa Jamie, your ex had four wives?

Two way street...

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | June 1, 2008 11:34 PM

You first since you are among the worst offenders

Prof Marcia,

And if what you say is true, we still don't care. Obama wins the Democratic nomination and will win in November.

Already did. Said Hillary would make a great Supreme Court justice. Your turn.

I agree more with the idea that prejudices are associated with class rather then color of skin. I believe that is how many of us judge others, whether purposely or sub-conscientiously.
(imo)

Mr D - I guess that says something. I do not attack Obama, or his supporters. I guess I am old school waiting for the winner to take the higher ground and lead.....supporters and all.

No one likes an arrogant winner.

Well Ruth, I don't know what to say.

Mr. D,

Wishful thinking.

I think the class argument is a convenient cop out because that suddenly makes it non racial. But in reality, the Ruth husbands of the world don't care if you wear a Brooks Brothers suit or baggy pants. And the stats/studies show that people react negatively to dark skin color, not their perceived class.

Jack,
Thanks for the map. I have no idea which way this state will go. But if I had to go by gut instinct and add in what I have heard from various people ....I think Ohio is McCain country.

Marcia
hillary was so upbeat today.She doesn't sound like she is getting out.The pundits love to say what she is going to do.Where do they get off,speaking for her,especially when none of them want her to go on.I hope she stays just to shut them up
Ruth

"No one likes an arrogant winner"

Burrito

Are you looking for a response like this?

"But what it does mean, what I’ve committed to, is assuring and promising all Americans whether they vote for me or not, I am going to be their president. Americans are sick and tired of partisanship and divisions along party lines that cause gridlock and frustration and lack of addressing the issues that confront America. "

http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/voices/0,16109,1807698-1,00.html

Jack

Well maybe, the class argument only applies to those who are not in contact with the others in their day to day lives? I do not know.

I do not think I am a racist, or a bigot, but I get really pissed off at stupid people no matter if the are black, white, mixed or what ever.

So maybe it's not "class" but rather "intelligence" isssue which actually is a very serious problem.....because, well what's the answer to that?

I am in trouble now......try to fix that problem for me.....in need of help. : )

What Whisky would like Obama to say:

"Suh, I's so happy to be so fortunate to beats Miss Hillary, even doe we both noes that I's don't deserve it. But I'se will tries to do my bestus, even if I'm just a poor ole Barack."

Fine, stupid people are stupid people. But when you think someone is stupid based on your preconceived notions, then you've got the problem.

Mr.Dem
I have to agree with you.I think a lot of white men over the age of 65 do carry a prejudice and it is the color of the skin.And you are right ,it doesn't matter what they are wearing.I don't know why my husband feels that way.

Ruth

Ruth, thanks for the honest opinion.

Wow Jack, I assumed that was an Obama quote....how funny it was a McCain quote.

How has Obama himself mistreated Clinton? Maybe SOME of his internet-using supporters get a little vociferous, or rude, with the luxury of anonimity this forum provides, and maybe the media has it out for Clinton (although all we heard form the MSM for the last 3 years was that she would be the nominee), but... Obama himself has been a class act from my vantage point. Using the rules to his advantage is what a good politician would do. Hillary would do the same thing if she was the front-runner and Obama was lobbing for more representation.

Once again, Clinton had no problem with not seating FL and MI delegates until she needed them. If fact, she SUPPORTED punishing those states. Can we please stop pretending she actually cares about the voters in those states? She cares only about the VOTES themselves.

And by the way, the Democratic party is not a democracy. They can do whatever they want. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

Mr. D

Not all at the same time. I was the first, then two more failures, and he seems to have finally gotten it right. They've been together for almost 20 years now. Of course she is a couple of years younger than his daughter. : )

Mr democrat
Why would I expect a Hawian, white boy to speak like Amos and Andy?
You, sir, are a fool. But then most sock puppets are, but in your case the guiding finger up your backside has no more brains than you.

Jack

Of course she's younger! Well, at least you were able to get out of bad relationship and make it better over the years.

Here's a freebie for you Whisky:

Satire: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

Hi Ruth,

"I hope she stays just to shut them up [the pundits]" posted by painter (Ruth)

I agree. For me, it's become not just about my inability to believe in
Obama, but also about my antipathy toward the pundits that I want
Hillary to fight on."

He does treat blacks ok when in their company, but he does not socialize with any.Maybe like Burrito says it is because he is not in daily contact with them.There are less than 1% in our area.And when he worked with any he got along fine and treated them with respect.And it is not something that we even talk about.It is just something you realize after 50 years of marraige.

Ruth

Easy solution- stop listening to the pundits. Turn off the TV and the radio. Get off slanted websites, whichever way they slant.

I think men in general are more racially prejudice then women.
--or so I have heard -- For example: women (of all colors) can bond in an elevator, for no other reason than to be pleasant to each other, or a great pair of shoes... just a useless observation.

With a black man, and a woman, and also a white man running for president, one might expect racism would be revealed or come to the surface. What is not expected is that the racism would come from the blacks instead of whites. And the bias, particularly in the media, against the woman in the race has been stunning.

Satire Mr D?

No foolish ignorance, troll baby.
I always wanted to ask you sock puppets.
Do those fingers up your backside tickle?

Jack

Satire: the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | June 2, 2008 12:01 AM

Now you say it's irony ,ridicule etc good to know for the future. Never would have guessed that from your posts.

champ
You may think Obama treated Hillary with respect,but here are many inxtances,such as when he said,"you are likeable enough Hillary",and the Annie Oakley Reference,and the brushing off his shoulder action.There was much more but as i age my recall is not as good as it used to be,but if I concentrate I can think of more.I am sure others on this post can name more.

Ruth

Women are the the low "man" on the pole every country in the world. We ( American Women) have just looked the other way for too long.

Okay that's it.....time to make a new day....

peace everyone~

Not much respect shown by Obama when all he could say of the verbal assault of Pfleger was that he was "disappointed". It was McCain who was the gentleman in the situation, ironically.

unlikely_burrito,

As long as the shoes are Manolo Blahnik, "Sex In The City", shoes.

99 problems but the bitch ain't one

sorry there has been a pattern of no respect from the
Senator from Punjab to the fake charges of racism

Obama has gone out of his way to disrespect Senator Clinton, The words of Jermiah Wright and Fr Phleger
are part of it. If there wasn't the tone of disrespect if they did not feel comfortable saying the vile things they did it would not have happened. And they are not sorry only sorry they got caught;

None of those offenses are very egregious. Annie Oakley was a famed sharpshooter, what's wrong with that comment? The shoulder brush thing- purely a media contrived non-event. "you are likable enough"? Is that so bad?

You are blaming Obama for the trolls who post on forums anonymously, and the MSM, whose real bias is just in keeping you tuned in as long as possible because they have advertising to sell. If the MSM pisses you off so much, that you just have to watch again to hear what else they might say, then they (MSM) has you right where they want you.

Once again ByeBye, you're blaming Obama for statements HE DIDN'T make. Wright and Pfleger disrespected Clinton, Obama didn't.

ub
Yes,I believe women do not notice racial differences in people.They look at other things, like their looks or their attitudes.But I think most women find they have a lot in common and generally can communicate easily

Ruth

lizbeth,

You are so right. The racism we saw from Blacks in this country during this
primary stunned me. And the sexism that has been the ugly subtext of
this election has been shocking, revealing a serious, much ignored problem
in our country that of misogyny.

I blamed Obama for setting the tone that allowed it.

Has Lizbeth pointed out Obama was not gracious to Clinton over the Fr Plegler incident at all.

The Obamas have said terrible things about Clinton and it the custom and practice of the Obama campaign to encourage it.

Chump
I'm not surprised you don't recognize it as disrespect
given your attitude

Wright and Pfleger are his close friends and associates. He has named them as his spiritual mentors so what they say does reflect on him.

I do have a question. I have never heard a minister curse from the pulpit in all the probably thousands of times I have been to church or even come close to the tirades of Pfleger and Wright. Now, I know it is a black church and a different worship style, but that does not explain it to me. So my question is has anyone else experienced anything like that?

Obama has no responsibility for Wright et al but
Clinton is responsible for all the things her campaign etc said

STFU

Burrito
about the McCain quote.
It was posted here last week. The interview is now linked on the McCain web site and the RNC website. Probably being passed around to moderate voters in Ohio suburbs too. He isn't going to pry any AA votes from Obama but it is an indication he is secure with his base and is working the undecideds and weak dem. leaners.

Jack

champ
I have not watched much msm lately.Watched c-span for the rules committe and checked fox today to see results from PR.Been too busy to watch much tv.With taking my husband for his treatments,taking my brother to his doctors and doing my yard work and doing some of my husband's work because he is knocked for a loop with the dialysis,I check in here at night to catch up with opinions.
Do not watch MSNBC or CNN at all.Watch WGN and ABC a little.

"if they did not feel comfortable saying the vile things they did, it wouldn't have happened" posted by Bye Bye Bullcrap

This is so true.

That has always been my point when Obama supporters use the argument that Obama has always acted saintly and never bashed Hillary. He watched as the media and his surrogates created a toxic, misogynistic environment during this campaign and he said nothing. Obama didn't even specifically condemn the disgusting personal vitriol spewed by Clinton hater Priest Pfleger. Obama merely said he generally didn't agree with Pfleger's remarks. (big deal)

time for bed
catch up tomorrow
Night all

Ruth

Mr.Democrat; 11:34pm....

Obama couldn't run for coffee, but David Axlerod ran a reasonable campaign if you take into consideration that he had no pre-conceived baggage or prejudices to contend with......since no one knows anything about this guy except his previous affliations are all bad.

Obama siad something to the effect that pfleger's comments were unfortunate, had no place in the campaign, and the disassociated himself from the church from where those comments came. What else should he do?

By the way, Bye Bye, I haven't insulted you, or anyone here specifically- I apologize if some of my generalizations of Clinton supporters are less than gracious, and as I've said before, Obama I'm sure has his own contingent of blind faithful. I don't know why you feel the need to call me 'chump'- I don't really care, but I don't know what the impetus for that is.

What is 'my attitude' anyway? That I belive everybody has the right to say what they want to, whether it offends others or not? I thought the 1st amendment protected our right to do that. My suggestion that people should not allow themselves to be offended by the speech of others? I just think that's a good attitude to have when anyone can say whatever they want.

It is shocking to me how weak his speech was announcing his resignation from the church. And he said specifically that he did not denounce the church because it was not worthy of denouncing. There is problem there. He has never been asked if he adheres to the black liberation theology.

Obama "agonized" about leaving. There is a great gap in my mind because it is unable to understand why he would want to stay there. It seems he so accustomed to such vile language and messages that it does not even seem odd to him.

lizbeth and Bye Bye Bullcrap,

You are both absolutely right. It is completely disingenuous for Obama
supporters to pretend that Darth Axelrod and Obama didn't have
everything to do with setting the tone and environment for the sexist
attacks on Hillary Clinton.

Camp Obama also were the ONLY ONES playing the race card throughout this campaign by trying to turn the Clintons into racists (an absurd charge, by the way). These are just two of the reasons why I could never
vote for Obama even though I'm a long time Democrat.

Can anyone give me a cogent, logical, and dispassionate argument for why Clinton should be president, and why we should look past the scandals that occurred during the 1st Clinton presidency?

In other words, convert me. That's what this is supposed to be about anyway.

I could never vote for Obama either and I can't even picture Hillary associating herself with the ticket as VP or even to endorse him. It has been ugly and I don't believe I have sensed a greater divide in our country than I do tonight. I keep hearing about unity, but I don't even feel a bit like unifying.

oh and the argument for Clinton's presidency should be based on her merit alone, not relative to the other candidates. I don't want to hear any 'lesser of 3 evils' type arguments.

Champ

What scandals?

Jack

Half of the Obama campaign has been spent demanding apologies from the Clinton's. That is the tone of the campaign. Most of the time the slights were imagined.

Just because in some alternate universe you think people should ignore this doesn't make it worthy of discussion, It is not the way the Obama campaign has operated and discussing hypotheticals you pull out of your navel is of no interest to me.

Because she is strong and she is smart. I have seen her inner strength and there is nothing or no one who will get the best of a strong woman. Just for starters.

Champ,

You seem to be a logical person. But, I must say, I find it odd that after
this current, long primary you are still reaching back into Senator Clinton's husband's long ago presidency to try to condemn Hillary Clinton. The woman has more than proved herself in the last year. For one thing, she has won
the most votes.

So late. I have to sign off. Thanks for the conversation.

lizbeth and Bye Bye Bullcrap,

Champ wants reasons to vote for Hillary.
Why is he using Bill Clinton's presidency as a reason not to vote for
Senator Clinton?

When I apply for a job, if anyone tried to use my husband's record
as a reason not to hire me, I'd be outraged!

Go on... don't be afraid to list specific policy or diplomatic achievements...

I heard the same 'inner strength' argument from Bush supporters in chain emails I got ad nauseum from my conservative friends 3 years ago. That's not a very good reason to vote for someone.

Strong and smart? So is Obama- he just pulled off the greatest political upset in modern history. So is McCain- he endured years of torture and is obviously smart enough to figure out how to keep a cushy job in Washington for umpteen years. Need better qualifications than strong and smart.

Voting for her because she is a woman is sexist in the smae way voting for Obama because he is black is racist. People should be judged on their merits, not things over which they have no control, i.e. race, gender.

And Jack, pick a scandal, any scandal. There are plenty to choose from. The pardons upset me the most. We are all equal under the law, unless you have a couple hundred grand a the phone number for the West Wing.

I'll answer you once you've answered me, Marcia. Specific achievements.

champ:

You've ignored my posts in regard to a cogent point I made twice, so I
don't feel compelled to answer your obviously rhetorical question.

It's not rhetorical. I am giving you an opportunity to persuade me to vote for you candidate. If you don't want to take that opportunity, then don't blame anyone else for your candidate not winning the nomination.

Hillary was closely associated with the WJClinton presidency, she was used in diplomatic capacities (like many 1st ladies), and her husband attempted to create a cabinet-level position for her to make some sort of health care reform. She seemed to be very involved in his presidency, more so than I think a spouse should, being as He was elected, not her.

She campaigned with her husband, she worked with her husband, and she cites her experience during her time in the White House as (partial) justification for her candidacy.

There. Now you.

Champ?;12:47

FYI....

Howdy Doody will be just wonderful and all those losers who couldn't win it for themselves(Dean, Kerry, Kennedy, Richardson, Dodd et al)will rule through their own personal puppet, on Theresa Heinz money, and he's so arrogantly naive He thinks he's the man......

Don't give me, selling pardons is a sin, some are just given away(Scooter Libby, Oliver North, and Richard Milhouse Nixon).

Whatever the Clinton's relationship is, she was there, she heard the hard questions and the answers, she watched him clean up after Bush 41 and has legitimately done her job in the senate by voting(at least she did vote, and was there for it) she didn't have the luxury of not voting and then critiquing from hindsight.

She has courage and staying power and when it comes to getting a handle on an out of control economy, raging gas prices, the mortgage meltdown, and Bush's war of choice, she at least has stated her position. He hasn't done anything but chant change, that's what "dubya", the other puppet, ran on. Oh good more change that's supposed to be good for us.....

Unless your one of the latte-drinking, how is it going to affect my bank account types, pull your head out of the change bucket and take a good look around.

Prof Marcia,

If you don't want to be judged by your husband's record, then I'm pretty sure you don't want to be responsible for your pastor's sermons.

Uh, I'm trying to take a good look around, pp, that's why I'm sitting here using this remarkably inefficient mean of communication to converse with you.

politcallypissed:

Thanks for putting forth several great arguments for voting for Hillary Clinton.
Champ should read your post because I was going to write some of the
same reasons you mention as reasons to vote for Hillary.

champ,

Thanks for answering me. But, you're ideas don't seem reasonable
to me in regard to Hillary's relationship to Bill Clinton's presidency. Since you originally brought it up, Bill Clinton's presidency was successful in many ways. When he left office, his approval rating was one of the highest of any two term president leaving office. The economy was in great shape. Americans were thriving. Bill Clinton was loved around the world for his
diplomacy. Let's look at it from a different angle: Hillary Clinton was part
of the success of Bill Clinton's presidency.

Hillary was the first person to even attempt to solve the horrible health care
problems in this country. No one since her has done anything to try to
fix our broken health care system. Now, her plan for universal health care is the best presented by any candidate to insure ALL Amercans.

Her plan to fix our demolished educational system is wonderful. I cannot
possibly list all the reforms she has planned for education, but if you
are truly interested, go to her website where her ideas for education are
outlined.

Her plan for creating a clean environment and changing the entire
way the country functions in terms of abuse of the environment are
brilliant. You can read her plan on her website.

Senator Clinton and Bill Clinton have worked since their college days for
the poor and needy in this country. Check the records and you will see that
they have devoted far more of their time and money to worthy causes than
the Obamas. As a matter of fact, Obama's tax returns show him as giving
less than the usual amount to charity the last four years.

Hillary Clinton is a far better debater and quick thinker than Obama. He stammers and stumbles when not reciting a speech written for him
by pro writers.

Clinton has had more experience in international affairs and in politics
than Obama and as she has stated, she is ready and seasoned to be
president on day one.

She can win swing states. Obama has not shown he can. She can win
cross over voters.

And going back to what the previous poster wrote, Mrs. Clinton has done
a remarkable job in the Senate, voting for important issues that matter to Democrats. Obama has been in the Senate barely two years and a year of that he has spent running for the presidency. He has little experience as a political leader and no foreign policy experience. He usually passed up his chance to vote in the Senate or wasn't even present when it came time to vote--Hillary has more courage than Obama does to stand up for her beliefs. Obama even claimed he voted incorrectly twice the few times he voted.

I could go on and on listing all the reasons I support Hillary Clinton and don't
support Obama, but I'm frankly not that interested in trying to convince you to vote for her, since you seem to have missed the entire year of her run for the presidency, which is obvious by your claim you don't know why you should vote for her.
Try reading her plan for America on her website, if you are so interested in
finding reasons to vote for her, which I suspect you are not.

I suspect you're more interested in finding Clinton supporters to argue
with on blogs. I'm not here to entertain you, champ. But, I've tried to
seriously present some truths about Senator Clinton.

It got awfully quiet in here once I asked for specific reasons to support a Clinton presidency. All of the reasons given were subjective statements regarding character, not one specific political or diplomatic achievement was cited. By saying nothing, you've said a lot.

Good night.

oops, strike previous comment. i didn't realize you were at work with a response. My apologies. Now let me consider this essay you wrote...

Makes the constant cries of racism seem hypocritical when it is nothing but demeaning remarks about others due to some implied group characteristics.

Jamie
Thank you for understanding.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/02/23/pentacle/

Posted by: WICCA | June 1, 2008 5:44 PM

=====================

WICCA,

Thanks for the link .. as one who is still learning, I remember that very well .. and I've also found, it doesn't make any difference on here if you fight for what you know is true .. there will always be someone trying to bring you down to their level .. hate to say, I did one night, when I was defending Ky people .., but I won't do it again ... I feel it's better now to ignore the ones who like to pull our chains ...
blessed be

Champ,

I did list specific reasons to vote for Hillary. Take a look at my long post June 2, 1:26 A.M.

But, like so many Obama supporters, you have never given Hillary Clinton a chance so why should you give her supporters a fair hearing either.
Add that to my reasons for voting for Hillary.

I am truly excited about the vote in PR.
I think HRC will go out on Tuesday with a bang.
Thank you Mrs. Clinton.
Not only have you shown my generation to fght for what they believe, but moreover have you made clear that a winner never quits!

Tomorrow is the last ay of the primaries and if you quit like the journalists asked way back, after Iowa, we would have never seen the things we have experienced in the past 6 months.....And what a masquearde it was....LMPO. From Pelosi to Wright, From Dean to Brazile, from Rendell to Castro and back. Our presumptive nominee has set the stage for his own Ball Masque....

Your true Hillary!

Now lets continue tomorrow and show tha fat pig heads from DNC we mean business!

There was a typo in my 1:26 A.M. post

The line should read, "But, your ideas". . .not you're ideas.

Prof Marcia,
Sometimes being like Marcel Marceau is the best thing. :))

The momeent people respond with a denigranting factor, you need ot stop commenting. The only thing they do is trying to get you upset.
Not only is it energy consuming to respond to a divider, but it is a battle not worth the time

Stay focssed...

All the love.....

BYNYC,

Haven't we covered that area enough? It's a bit of a cliche, don't you think?
I expected more of you.

By the way, Obama didn't vote against the war in Iraq. He gave a speech.

Ok, thanks for your argument. It is more coherent than 99% of the other posts on here (mine included), but you are still arguing for her in relation to Obama than on her own merits alone.

I'm not here to argue with Clinton supporters, I don't troll forums (this is the first I've posted to in 3 years), and I don't need you to entertain me. I genuinely wanted Clinton supporters' rationale for her candidacy, because I couldn't find any myself.

Your agreement with her stated political agenda (through which I just read on her site you recommended) is a valid reason, from my perspective, for you to support her candidacy. I don't find the argument very compelling, and I wonder where all this money is going to come form for the programs she'd like to create.

She's brokered no peace deals, has sponsored no significant successful legislation, her health care reform failed, as visionary as it may have been... I don't see a lot of accomplishment for all that so called experience, but that's my opinion.

Like I said, I don't find your argument very compelling, but I sincerely appreciate the effort you made in trying to convey your perspective to me. Thank you.
"Cut the minority drop-out rate in half" Sounds good. Now HOW exactly are you going to do that, Hillary?

BNYC

That he didn't vote against the war. That's it.

Why should I believe he would have had the courage to vote against it?
Nothing he has shown me in the last year supports that assumption.

Again, he's good at speeches written by pro writers.

Jason, thanks for the warning. But, I'm on to BNYC.

It just occurred to me re Craig's article up there -

Why does Obama need an excuse to quit his church? If he is being honorable and honest about it, he doesn't need an excuse, or shouldn't. I could tell him what hisreason should be, not excuse. But I'm not going to because I want to see if he realizes why he actions look suspicious.

Unfortunately, Craig hit on a problem for all candidates. They have to have an excuse for doing something because they have to keep too many factions happy.

Champ,

I didn't mean to be dismissive to you. You do seem to be sincere.
I'm glad you made the effort to actually look up
the plans Hillary has on her website.

But, I am as committed to my belief in Hillary as you
seem to be in your belief she is unworthy.

It is too simplistic to dismiss her valant efforts to reform
the health care system in this country with the words-- they failed.
There were many reasons for the failure, most had little
to do with how hard Mrs. Clinton worked on getting a bill passed
that would help Americans suffering with no health insurance.
Senator Clinton saw the suffering of millions of children and wanted to
help them with some sort of plan. She tried when no one else
did to give all Americans medical coverage. That in itself
deserves praise not criticism.
Many of the problems Mrs. Clinton had with her health care
plan came from some hostile Republicans leaders.

"He had the courage to speak out against it {war in Iraq}" posted by: BNYC

He read a speech written by one of his writer pals to a group of his far
left liberal cronies. That's courage?

ok, marcia, I'm giving you the last word regarding this debate.

Ron Paul '08

if not him, then Obama

Mr. Crawford:

This email is all I can do. I have not been able to post my comments on Huffpo. for several months, I'm assuming they are too pro Hillary since I have never used profanity or made attack there ( at least not offensive ones).

I understand you are writing the facts as you see them and you have always been fair with Sen. Clinton. Too many times, as with the RBC today, those in Washington D.C. live in a different world and look through a different prism than the people they are representing or reporting to.

The Clintons were "boss" of the Democratic Party because we chose them and I know how bizarre that concept seems. Collectively, we the people, have the power unless the DNC is prepared to go where the Republicans have gone and fix the vote in the same way they have "fixed" the nominating process.

Reading the comments on Huffpo, kos and some of the other blogs does not completely tell the story. The affection and fidelity of the "Old Coalition" for the Clintons will not be influenced by the scare tactics of Chairman Dean and the leaders of the Democratic Party. I am a perfect,, by no means the only, example. I am sixty four years old and I am at peace with casting my vote for John McCain in November. It will be a strange and liberating experience to have an effective protest for the first time since the Vietnam War. I have been a Democrat forty years.

One simple overriding human need is dignity and the media, Sen. Obama and his campaign along with certain member of the DNC have sought to deny that to Hillary Clinton and her supporters. They thought she would not be strong enough to fight, didn't they? The Republicans knew and maybe Donna Brazil should have consulted them before beginning this crusade.

I know you are a kind and fairminded person because I have seen you on Hardball and Countdown and have missed you since it has been months since I have watched anything on MSNBC. Don't you think it is inappropiate for Olbermann to compare himself to Edward R. Murrow? Whatever will he do if by some fluke, Sen. Obama would be elected? No longer able to express his rage, he could very well have a stroke.

What I intended to say before I expressed my own rage at the Democratic Party is simple. Don't count Hillary out. Should she lose her battle to be the nominee, John McCain will be the president and he needn't even campaign to win my vote.

I've wondered ,why in recent months, the DNC cannot understand how angry Hillary's supporters are, more with each passing day, thinking we will fall in line with what the party wants. Thank you for your time. I have an overwhelming complusion to find someone who really understands what will happen in November. Watch the membership of the party in the next two weeks. I think you will find a story there worth reporting. You might also check donations from the rank and file.

Okay, SOME of the problems she faced came from hostile Democratic
leaders as well as Republican. What's your point? I used the term
"some of her problems. . ." in my post. Again, what's your point?

Has anyone else checked the Politc Fact Check section which shows up on the main page? There is a report that Obama actually made two trips to Florida after his promise not to campaign there, where he attended two fund raisers - and it was found to be true, or whether his statement thAt they were not campaigning trips was found to be false. Also, Michelle was there several times, but they were not campaigns trips.. Obama tends to say that everything wrong she says was just mis-understood. All that being said, this is an example of how the party screwed things up. How any of them could possiblY ignore Fl and Mi is unfathomable. That was not only denying the voters and the candidates, that was denying the citizens of those states a chance to make money from the business the campaigning and prmaries would bring. Both candidates should have been able to campaign there - the DNC is a big bully with a lot of tentacles who are subordinate bullies. The people on the rules committe who just "met" to obtain unity are also the super-delegates.
Not just HRC supporters but BHO supporters and all Americans are being tossed around like stones in a polisher. This is not a good trend for anybody but the party elites, friends.

elise,

Thank you for your well-written and heartfelt letter. You have a home
on Craig's blog. There are many Hillary Clinton supporters here.
I came to Trial Mix because I, too, saw Craig Crawford on television and
thought he was one of the most reasonable and fair minding of the
political analysts.

Typo
I meant that Craig Crawford was fair minded.

Sorry to post same comment twice. I didn't mean
to send the first post.

After yesterday's acrimony, I was motivated to go back to Craig's book The Politics of Life.

Quoting from page xi in the introduction "Think again about driving your car and how people actually behave on the roads. While plenty of drivers are kind and generous, many are rude, obnoxious, and even threatening. No matter how they act elsewhere, remember this: What you see on the road is who they really are. You could be at a party with those same rude drivers, and they might put up a gentle and affable front. But in the anonymous bubble of their automobiles, they are their true selves."

I think that this analogy is applicable to posting on the internet as well. So we all provide a window to our soul, good, bad or ugly when we post here.

Sturgeone,

Pick two.

Where the Sidewalk Ends by Shel Silverstein

There is a place where the sidewalk ends
And before the street begins,
And there the grass grows soft and white,
And there the sun burns crimson bright,
And there the moon-bird rests from his flight
To cool in the peppermint wind.

Let us leave this place where the smoke blows black
And the dark street winds and bends.
Past the pits where the asphalt flowers grow
We shall walk with a walk that is measured and slow,
And watch where the chalk-white arrows go
To the place where the sidewalk ends.

Yes we'll walk with a walk that is measured and slow,
And we'll go where the chalk-white arrows go,
For the children, they mark, and the children, they know
The place where the sidewalk ends.

THE EAGLE AND DOVE. by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

IN search of prey once raised his pinions
An eaglet;
A huntsman's arrow came, and reft
His right wing of all motive power.
Headlong he fell into a myrtle grove,
For three long days on anguish fed,
In torment writhed
Throughout three long, three weary nights;
And then was cured,
Thanks to all-healing Nature's
Soft, omnipresent balm.
He crept away from out the copse,
And stretch'd his wing--alas!
Lost is all power of flight--
He scarce can lift himself
From off the ground
To catch some mean, unworthy prey,
And rests, deep-sorrowing,
On the low rock beside the stream.
Up to the oak he looks,
Looks up to heaven,
While in his noble eye there gleams a tear.
Then, rustling through the myrtle boughs, behold,
There comes a wanton pair of doves,
Who settle down, and, nodding, strut
O'er the gold sands beside the stream,
And gradually approach;
Their red-tinged eyes, so full of love,
Soon see the inward-sorrowing one.
The male, inquisitively social, leaps
On the next bush, and looks
Upon him kindly and complacently.
"Thou sorrowest," murmurs he:
"Be of good cheer, my friend!
All that is needed for calm happiness
Hast thou not here?
Hast thou not pleasure in the golden bough
That shields thee from the day's fierce glow?
Canst thou not raise thy breast to catch,
On the soft moss beside the brook,
The sun's last rays at even?
Here thou mayst wander through the flowers' fresh dew,
Pluck from the overflow
The forest-trees provide,
Thy choicest food,--mayst quench
Thy light thirst at the silvery spring.
Oh friend, true happiness
Lies in contentedness,
And that contentedness
Finds everywhere enough."
"Oh, wise one!" said the eagle, while he sank
In deep and ever deep'ning thought--
"Oh Wisdom! like a dove thou speakest!"

While plenty of drivers are kind and generous, many are rude, obnoxious, and even threatening."

I must read that book. Soon.

Maggisd,

You never have to explain yourself to anyone.

If we're looking at souls here, we can easily see that that your's is good and pure.

And that's not even mentioning that it's easy to see you're honest and intelligent, as well as fair minded and knowledgeable.

So to not look at your posts in the most positive light would be impossible for me.

HRC to go Indy? Don't laugh, she may and if she does she just might win!

Bo Diddley dead at age 79.

I just heard about Bo. ;-( So sad.

To the Clinton supporters who keep saying that Obama needs you more than you need him, can you explain to me who will usher Clinton into the White House if she could steal the nomination?

How will she do it without African-Americans?
How will she do it without Young People?
How will she do it without the liberals?

I'm not saying they'll all stay home (just like I don't belived MOST Clinton supporters are so partisan that they will stay home. That's just wishful thinking and hurt feelings, right now.

The issue is, that Clintion can't just walk off with the nomination and expect to win in the GE. It's so shortsighted to believe otherwise about either candidate.

Clinton as a winning Indy? Sure, she'd be just as likely to win as Joe Lieberman. She wouldn't even take HALF of her voters with her. Are people new to politics? Do you honestly believe most Dems are going to sit home or going to vote McCain? or go Indy and win?

She can't keep her primary campaign funded, is DEEPLY in debt, has no political structure outside the Democratic Party.

Name the precedent for it - you won't find it in these modern times.