Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Good morning all! Happy Heat Wave Monday.

This morning I saw a news clip of McCain in Louisiana, he was walking down some stairs and his gait was very tentative. The camera zoomed out and showed Cindy gripping his arm -- but it looked more like she was steadying him, less like he was assisting her. It was not a good picture, he did not look healthy.

As sure they will......

Hmm
Not really an interesting post Craig. Sorry, this is the forst time I am not impressed.

Prof Marcia -- I would love to see a good discussion of feminism begin again. It may be more important now than it was in the 70s. For one thing, have you noticed that even among some women, to even speak of sexism is now a scoffable offense? That is learned behavior.

Patsi,

Yes. I have noticed that women (and men) seem reluctant to talk about
feminism (sexism) today. I'm not sure why. But, after this primary, isn't it
an important subject?

Craig,

In relation to your post, ageism is another important "ism" that most
postmodern people don't want to address. Maybe it's because aging itself
has become almost shameful in the 21st century.

Many of the women I know feel forced to practice self-mutilation techniques in the form of elective medical procedures like: needles in their faces, knives carving their bodies, ingesting risky potents and pharmaceuticals just to appear younger.

A man in the public eye like McCain will certainly be attacked by the
youth police.

It's interesting to note that the liberals are the politically incorrect
party this election season hurling sexist and ageist remarks at
candidates.

It is coming back to bite the DNC's butt in more ways than they realize now. For example, one of my sister's friends in Washington (state) is a very rich woman who has given pots of money to the Democratic party. She emailed my sister that it's over. Not another dime.

Her feeling is that, had Obama needed MI and FL, a revote would have happened. She saw that whole thing as a backroom deal...and she was not amused.

The DNC better hope that the blogger boys at MoveOn et al have a lot of money and energy.

Craig.
Can you expand the meaning of the 5th paragraph..

Expect open season in the coming campaign for implicitly bashing the elderly as McCain's political foes and some media personalities stereotype him in ways that are justifiably considered off limits regarding Barack Obama's race.

Just saw your last post Marcia -- and the ageism is yet another thing my sister's friend (68 years old) is furious about.

Jason. You may need to take yourself to another level and then maybe something will pop ! and you will see the basis for the article.

Does Craig have or reflect a motivation or purpose? It may not be clear now but most times a post today of little meaning will become very clear down the road.

Ping -- Regarding race.....I truly believe media people would have lost their jobs if they'd spoken in the same terms with regard to race as they did regarding gender.

Prof Marsha
I have also noticed a resistance to the subject of sexism.If you bring it up in conversation it seems to be just passed off as whining.I don't know if is because of anti Hillary bias or not but the issue needs to be adressed!!! Maybe Hillary in some form through the Senate can lend a voice to the issue? I listened to her Sat. speach again and the 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling is so spot on!!! Now women and men alike need to smash a big HOLE in it!!!

I don't think it's good to speculate.

It would probably be wise for him to take a few days off, dump the advisers who stuck the Louisiana speech in his face, and see his doc.

and a tip of the hat to hillary clinton, who turned out to be a democrat after all. no surprise...except to some msm types.

questioning mccain's age is not...repeat...not ageism, which i define as prejudice againce the elderly because...and only because, they are old.

the segment of the population that is most concerned about mccain's advanced age is americans over 60, which includes me. we know how we feel physically and mentally.

so don't start that crap. if sombody says mccain is too old to be president, it's not prejudice...it just may be true in and of itself. [he is, really]...but that's my opinion, and it has nothing to do with him as a person; it's that he's too old for the job.

To me the age issue really isn't about age but about health. Just to say someone is "too old" for a job is wrong without adding why.

This is another subject designed to enrage especially older women. As I have aged (62) I notice I am ignored more and more or patronized -there is nothing more insulting then being called "young lady."
Sometimes I feel like I have become invisible.

J P
Agreed.Most of my conversations with my friends at my local gym regarding Sen.McCain for POTUS result in a discussion of age but it is mostly said by peaple over 60 for the reasons you stated.For me in this election age is not an issue.Its his 100 years in Iraq that I have a problem with.

Yeap, no old people, no women. It may start stepping on a lot of people's toes. Lets just let the young people take care of this country. Unfortunately I don't think the problems will hold their attention long enough and it will require some work.

People don't like this post because it involves you guys also. We are all getting old and those kids are waiting to put us out to sea.

The young people were complaining so much about this war and which candidate was actually against it. How many protests did you see on college campuses? I may have missed them but most of the protests I saw involved older people, women, old hippies, and people in other countries.

Age-ism schmage-ism...

Haven't you heard? "60" is "the new 40" and "dead" is "the new 90."

"60" is "the new 40" only for the purposes of delaying paying social security

I was just reading the early a.m. comments and this line from one of PM's messages jumped out, "...I only hope Hillary has enough sense to run away from Camp Obama as fast as her sensible shoes can take her!"

Although I agree with PM's political advice for Mrs Clinton, what I really want to focus on is the "sensible shoes" aspect of her candidacy.

I've always worn sensible shoes--the Army taught me all about that. Stinky didn't start wearing them until she was in her 40s. That was too late for her--painful bunions.

We sought to impart this learned-knowledge on one of our daughters who, to our eyes, was wearing shoes that we thought would ultimately cause her problems. She came up with the range of excuses, like, in my position I have to wear them, they're really comfortable, I don't have anything else that goes with that outfit, etc.

Daughter is now 46 and has bunions. And, despite all the earlier rationalizations, she is now starting to wear sensible shoes. (I suppose the ladies in my family are profoundly lucky that they weren't born in China during the first part of the last century when they would likely have had their feet mutilated so that they couldn't run away from their philandering husbands.)

Now the moral of the story, Despite their painful feet that may cause them to walk tentatively, they are much wiser than they were before they acquired bunions. Does anyone doubt that my daughter is now an enforcing member of the shoe police? That she is now smarter and wiser than she was 15-years ago?

Craig,
Yes, ageism is rearing it's ugly head.
Remember a while back, Obama accused McCain of 'losing his bearings'. I thought then, here we go.

Lard, 90 is sounding a lot closer all the time.

Morning everyone. I went back to work last night after having the last 2 weeks off. Lots of flooding here. I had to take an alternate route home because the exit I take onto the highway was closed because it was flooded. My parents basement has water in every room. The carpet is pretty much ruined. I have a question for Jamie , I believe. If I remember right , awhile ago you had a post on your blog about a dinner party. Everyone that participated in this blog entry was allowed to pick 10 guests they would like to have at this dinner party. Did anyone have the foresight to pick Barack Obama as one of their 10 guests?

Patsi,

I'm glad your sister's friend is furious.

To some of the other posters:

With all due respect, no one is really suggesting that ageism isn't now going to be an ugly subtext of this election?

Could these be some of the same people who think sexism played no
part in bringing down Hillary Clinton?

Not really an interesting post Craig. Sorry, this is the forst time I am not impressed. Posted by: Jason | June 9, 2008 6:36 AM

Jason,
Tthe way I read Craig's post was that McCain should prepare for the criticism. Not that he's too old, but that since Obama didn't hesitate in playing on peoples sexism against Hillary, McCain should expect him to use ageism against him.

Craig is even looking at the possible bright side of it, where McCain is concerned He's predicting that those who see the Obama campaign will try to create a prejudice against McCain because of his age, and people will not stand for it this time. They will unite against the mistreatment.

Flatus,

I like your sensible shoes narrative in reference to my earlier post.

My mother told me stories about how she always wore heels because women in the 50s (and before I spose) were expected to wear them. But, now her feet are ruined or they hurt her a lot and she goes to the doctor constantly for help with her various foot problems. She blames all the pain on her earlier vanity and those "dreadful" heels.

Good morning all.

To turn Craig's post and some of the arguments here on their head: ageism is possibly another reason many of the Hillary and McCain supporters here are not giving Obama a fairer look.

He was born in 1961 (is younger than JFK Jr. would be) at the tail of the baby boom.

A longtime poster observed several months ago that many Trail Mix commenters were not willing to cede the presidency to a younger candidate.

So much for the torch being passed to a younger generation.

(We had maggi on yesterday's thread saying that McCain's being of her generation -- and that because other candidates his age had not been elected to the White House -- was an additional reason for her support of him.)

Meanwhile, many in McCain's generation -- and most of our own -- voted or stood by as Bush-Cheney served two administrations, could not find their voice to halt the runup to an unneccessary war, are silent as habeus corpus and other rights are carved down, reveled in the consumer culture enhanced by tax cuts and too easy credit (too low savings rate, but home appreciation would more than make up for that), did not make any worthy sacrifices on behalf of our country over the past 20 years (we cannot honor the troops enough, especially since most of our loved ones are NOT among them).

I am speaking of American culture at large, and at its worst.

But this is what has brought so many Americans, young and not as young, out to support Obama.

They realize what poor stewardship their elders have been willing to accept (many because changing the political culture is extraordinarily hard in the face of entrenched interests, and takes getting out there and getting involved).

This is how Obama built a movement funded by small donations and volunteer activities enabled by the internet.

Some commenters have spoken of fear of the young. Maybe we should show some fear of the middle aged and old, too many of whom are willing to vote for their own comfort and who show no concern over the morass of troubles they are leaving to those who follow.

Ageism has at least two faces, folks.

On the other hand, isn't it fair to point out that women and minorities have achieved tremendous success over the past thirty years in educating the people as well as the power centers as to the issues surrounding sexism and racism. It is one of the glaring faults of us liberals to only focus on the distance ahead and to fail to celebrate the distance traveled. It adds a new dimension to that fault when those who care about these issues start to pit one ism against another ism...seems like a VERY slippery slope to me.

have noticed that women (and men) seem reluctant to talk about feminism (sexism) today. I'm not sure why. But, after this primary, isn't it an important subject? prof marcia Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 7:06 AM

Marcia,
I don't talk about it as much any more because I've felt that we that experience it agree with one another, but no one else is even listening. They still don't acknowledge that it even exists.
Some don't seem to see that racism, sexism, ageism, all the isms, are all equally wrong.

Ping, Thankx....

Chloe,
Good. I am there....

But do we reed to much into age-sim?

According to me me, the only ism that is affluent now is sexism. And this is coming from a BLACK MAN!
I think the age-ism is just a smoke curtain... But maybe I am seeing it differently.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070725obama,1,5894874.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout&ctrack=2&cset=true

Obama's fundraisers include big fish
By Mike Dorning and John McCormick | Tribune staff reporters
July 26, 2007
: WASHINGTON - Even as Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has promoted a large following of small-dollar contributors representing ordinary Americans, his campaign has built an old-school political fundraising machine that relies heavily on the wealthy and the powerful, including a Chicago-based hedge fund manager who earned $1.4 billion last year

Despite the media attention the campaign has grabbed by attracting 258,000 donors—in many cases people of modest means who have given over the Internet—a much smaller group of large donors provides most of the funds for the campaign. And those large donors are best tapped through fundraisers who can call on networks of acquaintances and business associates who can easily write big checks.

Chloe,

I think you're right. Craig's post is a sort of warning to Camp McCain that
Obama will unleash his pit bulls to attack McCain with the age club, just
as they attacked Hillary with misogyny.

I agree, too, that Craig was also warning Obama that just like his machine's sexist remarks rallied women to Hillary, ageism used by Obama's surrogates,
could propel folks over 60 to McCain.

Flatus,
Proving once again that the best lessons are those we learn the hard way. Thanks for sharing that story. It says so much.

Dog, good points - but lets get to substance. BHO has done?????

Do not throw all into one basket with relation to Bush. McCain is almost a HIllary when compared to Bush.

This will continue to reveal itself

Obama to visit Detroit on June 16th. It's a public event and fund-raiser. Michelle Obama was originally going to attend this event alone. It was to be held at a place called the "Rattlesnake Club". (Insert your own joke) Barack will now be attending this with her , so the venue will probably change. Bring your checkbook! Here are the full details and of course , there are lots of comments with it!

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080609/NEWS01/806090351

Some commenters have spoken of fear of the young. Maybe we should show some fear of the middle aged and old, too many of whom are willing to vote for their own comfort and who show no concern over the morass of troubles they are leaving to those who follow.

Ageism has at least two faces, folks.

Posted by: dog's eye view | June 9, 2008 8:20 AM

Interesting.
Care to elaborate on this?

PS: to head McCain supporters off:

I fully realize Sen. McCain has worked very hard to mitigate the worst of Bush-Cheney's military tribunals, and has earned his "maverick" status on many occasions.

I helped in his 2000 Virginia primary efforts. But McCain version 2008 is not McCain version 2000, and due to more than 8 intervening years.
========

My point is that too many Americans have been willing to vote for and support a criminal US administration, and to look inward and concentrate on their own families and careers.

Taking a "this too shall pass" attitude can lead to a LOT of bad behavior in the meantime, and you might not end up with the same good situation you began with.

Marcia,
I turned and asked my husband this morning if he thought McCains age should be worrisome. He said that he trusted McCain more than Obama even if his thinking has slowed down to half. McCain is just fine. I think the way he walks down stairs (as in one of the posts), balance, has nothing to do with his reasoning capabilities and intelligence. I trust him.

A few years ago , I used to take tennis lessons with a friend named Tim. Tim was a year or two younger than me. We were 30-somethings and occasionally high school kids would join our adult lessons class. Tim and I would root each other on. Encourage each other to kick the butts of these "young punks". I think what Dog is saying "ageism" could mean not only discounting McCain as being too old , but discounting Obama as being "too young".

I believe that people will vote for whoever they think will do what's best on the matters important to them. I know a lot of conservatives where I live. They may not be happy with Bush and the war or the economy , but they will still hold onto their conservative values. That won't change.

IMO, it isn't youth that older people fear but youth
who have no understanding of history and act like they invented "new" politics are are willing to repeat the talking points of the campaign even when they are not true.

Good. I am there....
But do we reed to much into age-sim?
Posted by: Jason | June 9, 2008 8:25 AM

Jason,

Good, because I respect your opinion and I'm always open to suggestions.

Yeah, we may be reading too much into ageism.

But I would put nothing past his competitors.

Jason:

-- the free lunch crowd: taxes pay for schools, hospital, care for our military, safe roads, infrastructure, food, environment

-- voters who will not support tax bonds for new schools, parks and infrastructure -- it's a low cost means of funding opportunities for future generations

-- our tax code which provides perverse incentives for homeowners to build and buy ever bigger and bigger, so as not to pay capital gains

-- tax code also provides accelerated depreciation schedule for businesses buying light trucks and SUVs. Contractors need trucks; business owners do not necessarily need Cadillac Escalades (although they are useful for some realtors, etc.)

=====

I am sure you guys can come up with similar examples.

I don't remember anyone saying they had a "fear of the young." I'd put my PhD son in the presidency in a heartbeat and he's 35. (Likewise with my 39 year old daughter but she hates politics and politicians....)

In Obama's case, it had to do with a lack of experience.

I DO have a problem with the kind of young posters I see on Kos and other places. They appear to have been raised by no one. They make crude sexist, sexual and rude remarks continually. I wouldn't trust one of them around my daughter or granddaughter, that's for sure. Because of my criticism of those types, dog, you and Sheila decided that I must hate the younger generation, and posted that theory. In fact, I'm criticising whatever morons in my generation raised these idiots.

I know that Brian thinks that there is a great liberal movement building and Obama is the leader of that movement. In the grand scheme of things , ending the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" military policy and ending the "DOMA" wouldn't exactly be high on my priority list if I was going to be our next President. Not with the war in Iraq , the economy and health care issues needing a lot of attention.

Chloe,

Great story. As a life long Democrat, I NEVER thought I'd trust a Republican. But, this election year has surprised me countless ways.

Corey and dog's eye view:

I haven't heard anyone discount Obama for being too young, on the contrary,
he is constantly celebrated for being so wonderfully youthful by the media.
His age isn't questioned but his lack of experience is. And that is a legitimate
criticism. On the other hand, I've heard endless, cutting remarks and jokes
about McCain's age.

Courtesy of Al Hunt:

[S]ome Clintonistas persist in the whiny complaint that it was all about sexism. . . . Clinton herself complained of the "deeply offensive" sexual discrimination she faced particularly in the media . . .
Here's my question, is discussing the pervasive sexism in the Media now whining? Really? You sure you want to put it that way Al Hunt?

This is the "it's only sexism" version of the malign acceptance of sexism. I wonder if it too is acceptable. Sadly, it probably is.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/9/83712/17961

Remember how Reagan turned the age question on its ear and made Mondale look foolish.

Dog , do you want an increase in taxes to pay for services?

The Three Acts of a Stolen Nomination

"The answer for me (and for many others) is that I will not condone the misogyny, delegate stealing, and race-baiting from Obama and his people. I am a Democrat precisely to fight against the type of campaign run by Obama. I will not be blackmailed into voting for a candidate whose tactics I find repulsive.

One of the areas I found most repulsive was the pro-male and anti-woman symbolism employed by Obama and the Media."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/09/the-three-acts-of-a-stolen-nomination/

....youth who have no understanding of history and act like they invented "new" politics are are willing to repeat the talking points of the campaign even when they are not true....
Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker A | June 9, 2008 8:38 AM

Katherine

Some were talking about this on yesterdays blog. Some posters just keep repeating Obama's talking points, that they've heard over and over the last few months. It's as though they think, if you repeat them enough times, then they are true.

And I just don't understand this idea, that it's time to rid ourselves of the old generation so that the new generation can take control. I understand wanting change, but can't believe somethink that it can only come from someone that is in the "correct generation."

P. Diidy was on the MTV Awards last week and he seemingly ended each sentence he spek with "YES WE CAN!" If I remember right , he helped lead the MTV campaign of "Vote Or Die" in 2000 or 2004. When he was asked who he had voted for in the previous election he said , "I didn't vote. I've never voted before."I thought , "He's trying to get people to get out and vote and he's never voted before?"

P. Diddy , I mean. I've never said Obama was young. Afterall , he's older than I am. LOL!

Remember how Reagan turned the age question on its ear and made Mondale look foolish.

Posted by: Lynn C | June 9, 2008 8:45 AM

My mistake I forgot nothing important happened before Obama got elected to the state senate.

Tickets for the Obama fundraiser in Detroit will cost $1,000...$2,300....and $4,600.

Thanks Gordo

Corey: thanks, realize that answer was heavy on taxes.

In some cases, yes. We need to redirect revenue to repairing and improving our infrastructure (roads, public works) -- which would provide many new construction jobs.

In some cases, no. Perhaps as a society we could look a bit harder at means testing. The tax incentives for buying ever bigger, more expensive homes need to be scaled back.

We seriously need to redirect a lot of revenue to our younger military veterans, who need medical and rehabilitative care and a GI bill comparable to what the "greatest generation" received.

I think there is a LOT of corporate welfare that is wasteful and not in the public interest -- that needs a serious look and no better time than now.

No one ever gave the "Concord Coalition" types (Rudman, Tsongas, etc.) a real place in government; seems to me an idea whose time has come, particularly since our economy is in a downturn and people realize our fiscal policy as practiced has a lot of flaws and misassumptions.

======

But the thread was on ageism, and that is a topic more should discuss.

Obama supporters may want to think hard before linking age and competence:
Kennedy--------76
Kerry-------------65
Leahy------------68
Pelosi-----------68
Dean-------------60
Dodd-------------64
Daschle---------61
Biden-------------66

The minute I saw Keith Olbermann commenting about John McCain wearing Depends, I knew all bets were off on the ageism issue. I find it disgusting, and wrote a letter to all the head honchos way back in March when I heard the comment. You can say a lot of things about John McCain and his stand on the issues, but reducing him to a geriatric in diapers is simply beyond the pale (and don't look for it to sit too well with the older people in, say, Iowa, for instance.)

Dog , my brother-in-law is a property tax assessor. He can tell you how people feel about property taxes. LOL!

Corey: ain't that the truth!

Good to see you here today. I have some outdoor stuff need to start on now before it's impossible in the heat we're expecting later.

Corey,
just saw some pictures on CNN of some of those floods you were talking about. What a mess. Not sure it was your state though, but similar outcome.

Patsi,

I couldn't agree with you more! It's not fear of the young, it's fear of people
without a moral compass.

I remember my best friend complaining back when we were 21 and hanging out at a bar. He said , "The people in this bar are all OLD! They must be at least 25!" I looked at him and said, "What the hell are you talking about?! 25 isn't old!" Well , I'd better get to bed soon. Have a good day all.

I'm in the same generation as Obama. But, as a woman over 40, Camp Obama
certified me as an old hag.

But, I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.

Obama's moral compass works just fine, thank you.

I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:08 AM

In that one sentence, there lies the problem.
If you doubt it, look at Hollywood.

profmarcia and chloe: it's not age, it's attitude.

I have a wonderful friend who is 93 this month going on 45.

I'm older than Obama too!

Obama gaffe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxBX8sz3tO8&feature=related

dog's eye view,

Please refer to earlier posts. I was referencing Chloe's comment about
some young people posting on websites, not Obama.
Please, everything doesn't have to be about the anointed one, does it?

I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.

Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:08 AM

In that one sentence, there lies the problem.
If you doubt it, look at Hollywood.

Posted by: chloe | June 9, 2008 9:10 AM

You said two mouthfulls there sisters. Sexism and ageism have strong ties, don't they? I remarked recently that one of my favorite episodes of Six Feet Under is the one where the mother (Ruth) goes shopping with her new friend, Bettina (Kathy Bates character) and Bettina shoplifts some expensive lipstick. Ruth is shocked but Bettina informs her that it is completely easy to get away with it at their ages...middle-aged (and older in this case) women are completely invisible.

Thanks Ally.

Ally,

You're so right, "Sexism and ageism have strong ties." You're brilliant.
And there in is the whole point, I believe, of Craig's post!!

This is back from early May, but it was when I first saw it as more to come.

Obama accuses McCain of 'losing his bearings'
"......Let me tell you something, it's no old man's job," Murtha, 75, told a union audience.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080509/D90HQJSG2.html

Ally, Chloe, Prof Marcia -- you get it. thanks.

When someone's age (and health) are directly relevant to deciding the subject at hand, it's not "ageism". If McCain were 98 years old, wouldn't that be a relevant factor in deciding whether to give him the hardest job in the country for 4-8 years? Well, he's "only" 72, but has a record of poor health, including cancer surgery this year. And that's a record that's largely kept secret - that cancer surgery wasn't announced, either by McCain or by his primary opponents.

But even apart from health concerns, his age itself is a problem. The last president we had who was that old spent a lot of the time napping through the job (but looked peppy for his TV appearances). While he napped, ambitious youngsters ran Iran/Contra out of his office's basement, while he checked in occasionally when they needed the old man's signature.

We need a 24x7 president. With a lot of energy. Whose VP will be unlikely to have to replace him when he's out sick or dies.

John McCain's age, and his health at his age, are concerns that are completely different from sexism. In fact, saying that age, which is a factor that most certainly does affect performance, is equivalent to gender, which certainly does not, is some real sexism. Ironic that you are reversing the actual sensible logic in comparing them. It shows that Washington DC is still a town of old men, rather than recognizing the vigor of the young and the female.

"It sounds crazy at first. Amid dire reports about the toxic political environment for Republican candidates and the challenges facing John McCain, many top GOP strategists believe he can defeat Barack Obama — and by a margin exceeding President Bush’s Electoral College victory in 2004."

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=2&threadid=795810

Patsi , Prof Marcia
A good discussion on feminism last night. It reminded me of how much things have changed. When I graduated from HS in 71 there were jobs and classes that women did not do. Those were men's jobs.

Just after that it all changed and opened up. Nothing is perfect and there are many things that need improvement.

I tend to agree with the direction that Patsi is going with the sexist comments coming out of the Obama camp. I would have expected such comments from the right wing of the Republican party. But to hear them come out of the Democratic party was a shock. Then to see no attempt to slow them down and have the people protesting the comments poopooed as out of touch partisans was outrageous.
There was serious sexism coming out of the Obama campaign yet nothing was ever done. If anybody is out of touch with the American people I am begining to believe it is Obama.

Jack

Ally, Chloe, Prof Marcia -- you get it. thanks.
Posted by: Craig Crawford | June 9, 2008 9:33 AM

Craig,

I don't hear that often. Thanks to you.

And coming from you, it means a lot.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99456

Matthew, if the discussion of age in this campaign stays in the clinical realm you describe, it's fine. My point is that we are heading into an environment where "depends" jokes and the like will be deemed fair game.

Matthew:

You're not referring to that crazy old coot Ronald Reagan are you? That President that changed the trajectory of America, in a way that Bill Clinton did not?

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times. I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

Barack Obama, January 14, 2008

Obama supporters may want to think hard before linking age and competence:
Kennedy--------76
Kerry-------------65
Leahy------------68
Pelosi-----------68
Dean-------------60
Dodd-------------64
Daschle---------61
Biden-------------66

Posted by: ubns | June 9, 2008 8:58 AM

Very good point.
That is why I am saying, we are reading too much into this.
BO will not get escape this time with these tactics. Do not think msm will support him this time.

"one of my favorite episodes of Six Feet Under "

God, I LOVED that show! I didn't have HBO, so my sister taped the entire first season and sent it to me. I had no idea what to expect, because I hadn't really paid any attention to the tv news about it. My sis said it was a family of morticians. So I popped the first tape in one morning around 5:30 am....was watching it when my son left for classes at Vandy, was watching when he got back and he just shook his head.

BUT, when he got home from meeting some friends that night, he too popped in the first tape....and he was still up watching them when I got up the next morning.

And Craig, I agree. Health concerns are open for discussion (just like Obama's smoking, which some find a subject for debate.) Personally, I don't agree with the smoking dialogue, but many, many people find it relevant.

Patsi: It was a great show...HBO has lost some really fabulous programming in the last few years and they haven't quite figured out how to get back on track.

Yes, ageism is rearing it's ugly head.
Remember a while back, Obama accused McCain of 'losing his bearings'. I thought then, here we go. (posted by Chloe.)

.....

Exactly, Chloe. I heard someone on CNN yesterday say "does McCain really want to be on a stage and debate someone half his age and six inches taller?" Another comment, reference to him choosing Jindal as his vp, (all laughing) "does he want to choose someone young enough to be his grandson?" (all laughing). This is all done under the guise of "news" and these people, whoever they are, (what the hey is a political analyst anyway and what are the qualifications) they slip these little comments in between somewhat serious discussions.

Right now on MSNBC they are providing cover for Michelle Obama for some reason. I don't know what the little segment was all about. Maybe something really IS coming out on Michelle, or they are afraid it will.

This thread raises some new questions for me now that I must give more conscious consideration to McCain's candidacy. Does John McCain have a workout regimen? Does he have limitations on the kinds of exercise he can do because of his past injuries? What does he do to keep fit? What does he eat, and what medications or supplements does he take? These may seem purely nosey questions, but the answers could improve the confidence level of voters concerned about the age-factor.

Obama would be wise to encourage the media to reign all of the old man talk in a bit. Older people are VERY reliable voters.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99464

Interesting comparison, Ally. As i've said here before, my own battle against the smokes will keep me from ever criticizing Obama's smoking, be it past or present. If anything, his struggle could be an inspiration to us all -- if he really has beat it. Would like to see him talk more about it.

Wow! That was a surprise.

Thanks for your kind comment, Craig.

Ally and Chloe, I guess we deserve a pat on the back.

BO will not get escape this time with these tactics. Do not think msm will support him this time. Jason | June 9, 2008 9:41 AM

And if the media does support it, we the audience are so much more aware and skeptical now. This election didn't just make better, more talented candidates, it made the voters more knowledgeable too.

Ivy: Personally, I think he should commit to one term only. It would alleviate concerns for many voters. And, if he wins and is in superior health at the end of 4 years and has had a fabulous Presidency (doubtful!), he can run again and would be forgiven.

As far as his age goes, so much of health is related to heredity (they all die young in my family.) He should just keep on parading that mother around. She looks amazing!

OK
Now to the post of the day. I think that age is a problem that McCain can deal with. A lot of what draws attention to his age is his arthritis, from all the abuse he took while in prison. He should set down and have a long talk about what it is like to have to live in his body. Having worked construction a good part of my life , advil is my friend. I took 2 this morning. I can only imagine what his shoulders feel like on a rainy morning like this morning.
Also, I agree with several commenter and with Craig that there could be a backlash from stupid comments coming out of the Obama camp. But then again that would be "situation normal".

Jack

Ally and Chloe, I guess we deserve a pat on the back.
Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:48 AM

Marcia, And those back pats don't happen all that often. I guess, at least Craig, doesn't think we're 'invisible'.

gotta go...duty calls.

Craig: I have commented before on the evil nature of cigarette addiction and my husband's struggles. I have seen a perfectly lovely man turn into a stark-raving lunatic while he was trying to quit (threw a beautiful footed bowl at me—missed me, hit the wall—busted into a million pieces—wedding gift—irreplaceable). That's why I back way off the smoking criticisms as well. I have seen the addictive experience first hand and refuse to judge anyone on this issue.

BTW: Because I like to bring everything back to the movies, one of my favorite films of all time is The Insider, about Dr. Jeffrey Wigand.

I think Obama's smoking is definitely an issue. At least it should be, but then this is Obama, and there is nothing said about it. Anybody who smokes is at a health risk. That I know about because I am now suffering the results of it. What about his past drug use? Never used drugs, but does it leave damage? What medications does he take? I remember when somebody was forced out of a race bacause he took anti-depressants. Who was that?

It is fair to look at the physical condition of the candidates, but let's look at BOTH of them.

Jack: Getting old is hell enough, I don't know how McCain handles it. Very interesting point but I doubt it will be discussed as it will only draw attention to one of his negatives. Do you agree?

whiskeyjack,

I appreciated your post about how opportunities for women have changed since you were high school.

It's also interesting to note that you, a man, also picked up on all the sexism coming from the Obama campaign. A lot of men seem to think we (women) are making too much of this. But, I don't think we can ever discuss prejudice too much whether it's sexism, ageism or racism. How else can we improve as a society if we don't address these issues when we see them?

Great piece in the NY TImes:

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/woman-in-charge-women-who-charge/?ex=1213588800&en=13e31bb233babef5&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Craig: since ally, chloe and profmarcia "get it", may I ask you a serious question?

Hillary Clinton's encouraging her supporters to conclude that most of her campaign's woes stemmed from sexism, when her identity as a woman and former first lady were so integral to her running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics.

McCain will also play to identity politics, as an elder statesman and lauded military veteran.

Do you think that identity politics trumps all other factors? I think David Brooks may have made a point of demographics explaining a lot in a recent column.

Do you not see the other side of the ageism sword you drew today?

A US Supreme Court justice is appointed for life or until he or she chooses to retire. So I guess age is okay in this case.

The media pundits better watch the agism - aren't many of them pushing 70? Even with all the make-up and camera filters you can see them aging.

Well after they beat us up for being women, now they will beat up the entire baby boom generation for gettting old. It is like a big send off....efff you old farts you just don't get it....

"change"...."yes we can".....blahhhhhhhhh...

I would add "classism" to this discussion. That may be the dems Achilles Heel now that Hillary isn't in the race.

All this talk about "sensible" shoes reminds me of a poem written for my best friend Sarah that closed with:

I can see us several years hence in our comfortable shoes, still giggling and being young because we came from the same sandbox.

Patsi and Ally,

Damn.......... One of the best shows ever on TV.
I was in NY last month and bought all the seasons at Virgin.... I always felt it was an underrated show, nevertheless very straight and amazing acting by the cast

I thought "youth" wanted to breakdown stereotypes and cliches not reinforce them

This election didn't just make better, more talented candidates, it made the voters more knowledgeable too.

Posted by: chloe | June 9, 2008 9:48 AM

Can I get an AMEN on this one!!!!!!

This is what Mccain and Obama need to be very cautious about.

Do others here know who Stephen Hawking is?.
His body and health problems never affected his brain.
He had a computer system attached to his wheelchair and has accomplished great things, in spite of his physical disabilities. His works include;
* A Brief History of Time,
* Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays,
* The Universe in a Nutshell,
* On The Shoulders of Giants. The Great Works of Physics Astronomy,

Jacks right. McCains physical problems have nothing to do with his cognitive skills. His body has aged, but his experience means a lot. I trust him more than I trust Obama.

Jason and Patsi: Six Feet Under was great because it addressed so many issues: Getting older, being gay, being young, being black, being married with a kid (boredom), mental illness, dealing with our own mortality and, most importantly, dealing with family. And all of these issues were dealt with in a very honest way, as Jason said.

"Hillary Clinton's encouraging her supporters to conclude that most of her campaign's woes stemmed from sexism, when her identity as a woman and former first lady were so integral to her running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics."

How about this?

Barack Obama's encouraging his supporters to continually charge racism, when his identity as a charismatic black man and son of a "poor-and-on-welfare" white woman were so integral to his running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics.

McCain's health does worry me....but "depends" jokes are simply disgusting. How would it go over if Oaf-erman started making snide comments, asking Chris Matthews if his diabetes had left him impotent?

How about that Patsi?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99481

Dog, as i tried to get across in today's post, i only agree with half of HRC's sexism case -- yes, there was sexism but I think it helped her more than it hurt her. And to your point about the flip side of ageism -- Might be something to that, but the media celebration of Obama's youthful appeal trumps it. Finally, I think all presidential campaigns are about identity politics -- this time we just gave it a name.

Wish I could go on, folks, but have to get some other stuff done and you're having a fine discussion without me.

Obama is due for a check-up. His one page report stated his last was on January 15, 2007.

Keith likes 'em young...his live-in girlfriend is 24. I'm POSITIVE she loves him for his mind.

Craig, Ally, et al:

The same thing applies to Obama's past drug use as to his cigarette smoking -- it's an opportunity to educate, enlighten, and inspire. Too many Americans, especially the young, are caught in the cycle of abusing drugs and alcohol. It stunts their educations, limits their opportunities, damages their health, impairs their relationships with family and others. I'm sure Obama's drug history will get dragged out again before this is over - effective leadership would begin with changing views that addiction is a real physical/mental disease and should be treated as such, not moral weakness, character failings and willful misbehavior.

The older I get the less youthfulness impresses me.

And if you look at our society today, I would say we have lost many common courtesies and mutual respect.

It's not a pretty scene.

(my mother a young 80-something, made an error driving in the city....a car drove up to her and yelled "F*CK you" and waved the finger jecture towards her......)

If this is youth, I don't want any.

For all the Carol Burnett fans, there is a new book out by Vickie Lawrence as "MaMa" that takes on both age and sex.

http://www.amazon.com/Mama-President-Good-Lord-Why/dp/1401604099

All anyone needs to reply to anyone making a "Depends" joke about McCain is to point out that the man cannot raise his arms due to injuries sustained while a POW.

Or to point out that most of us anticipate growing old, and that dignity prevents a further reply.

Or to go straight to their point: So, Keith, are you saying that all elderly Americans are addled and without reason? Because we would love to hear more from you on that count.

But to say that age and experience inevitably bring wisdom:

friends, may I introduce you to Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld?

Sexism and ageism were both at work in this prmary season against Hillary Clinton and her supporters. If I had a dollar for each time I heard "old hag" in reference to Hillary or any of the women who supported her campaign, the sum would pay for a a cross country road trip in a 32-foot RV!

Ivy: I think Obama needs to be very careful discussing his past drug use, especially when speaking to high schoolers. When he discussed it in the fall at a high school in New Hampshire, it made a bit of news. My boys saw it being discussed and commented that Obama was kind of a goof off in high school and still ended up successful and even went to Columbia and Harvard. I told the kids that I'm 100% positive Senator Obama would encourage them to avoid drinking, using drugs and goofing off while in high school and NOT wait until they are a junior or senior in college to apply themselves.

And who was it, Chris Matthews? who said the American people were not ready to watch a woman age before their eyes?

Remember when the press was so respectful of a president that they would not even flim or take a picture of Franklin Roosevelt in a wheel chair?

"In Obama's case, it had to do with a lack of experience."

"His age isn't questioned but his lack of experience is. And that is a legitimate"

"His body has aged, but his experience means a lot. I trust him more than I trust Obama."

While thinking through my comments on Craig's blog and the ties of ageism and sexism to this election cycle, I keep reading this "no experience" here today, more prominent than most, and it's obvious it relates to the subject. But, what has McCain's age and his 35 years of experience in the political office got us?

mornin' all.

What a weekend - if you like hot and humid, that is. Today is more of the same.

I know coming from WV this opens me up to joking, but really, everything is relative, isn't it? Ageism - as identity politics - the charges were leveled at Reagan - remember the Doonesbury trip through Reagan's brain? They didn't stick because he came across as witty and wise and (to some) sharp enough to be president despite his age. That will be McCain's challenge in negating concerns about his age - to convince voters that the ravages of time haven't taken their toll on his mind. I don't care so much about his age, although I don't want someone who even at my advancing age reminds me of my grandfather, even though he's younger than my parents would be were they still alive. 71 isn't all that old anyway absent obvious changes - hell, he's only 6 years older than Mick Jagger. In may ways though he talks and acts as if he's a bunch older than he is - he seems to be rooted in the Republican and post WWII mentality, so no thank you very much. Obama's challenge will be to convince voters that there is meat on the bones of his campaign that will appeal to middle America. I don't think he's there yet.

The sexism thing is different - aside from the ability to sire or bear children, and that menopausal hormone thing that unlike senile dementia is treatable, sex has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. I've never heard anyone suggest that if only Thatcher or Indira Ghandi had been men, the would have been better leaders. At this point it doesn't matter anyway - there isn't a woman candidate is there? Have I missed something?

Jason-

AMEN

"... -- it's an opportunity to educate, enlighten, and inspire. Too many Americans, especially the young, are caught in the cycle of abusing drugs and alcohol.,.." Ivy Green | June 9, 2008 10:22

The only way to do this, is to convince them drugs aren't 'cool'.
You can tell them repeatedly that "It stunts their educations, limits their opportunities, damages their health, impairs their relationships with family and others". All true points and we know that, but they don't see it that way and won't listen.

You're right. Obama, with his huge following of young supporters could really make a difference. When he talks, they listen.

My time this week has been devoted to the entertainment of a thirteen-year old visitor, a new experience since my youngest is a college student about to turn 20 and I'm "losing touch" as I no longer spend time monitoring her activities and associations... I don't have either a "MyFace" or a "SpaceBook" page, but my niece has been showing me hers and her 100-plus BFF's ...this may be an over-generalization, but I think there's too much rudeness, discourtesy and downright coarseness in the interactions of these media. This is what passes for communication among kids? No wonder they go out and give the finger to 80-year olds?

"...- hell, he's only 6 years older than Mick Jagger.>>>Pogo

Hadn't thought of that. Guess we can take comfort in it though.
And at least he isn't as drug ravaged as old Mick.

Rez, that's 2 candidates whose lives of public sevice have brought us less than we should expect IMHO.

I swear our current President is mentally impaired. His solution for getting us through "this difficult period of high prices" is to open up ANWAR

Even if we were crazy enough to do that, how much of a supply would there be and how long would it take to get to market?

The man is a 6 foot plus empty headed talking point.

And who was it, Chris Matthews? who said the American people were not ready to watch a woman age before their eyes? izbeth
I think it was Rush Limbaugh

"sex has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader."
Might even keep her out of trouble too.

Just 17% of voters nationwide believe that most reporters try to offer unbiased coverage of election campaigns. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that four times as many—68%--believe most reporters try to help the candidate that they want to win.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/voters_give_media_failing_grades_in_objectivity_for_election_2008

RH, drugs and alcohol, imprisonment and torture - I don't imagine either of those combinations helps you stay particularly sharp as you age.

And Stephen Hawking? I don't buy the comparison - he's a frickin' genius of the Einstein caliber who happens to have a disease that has incapacitated him - short of some progressive mental condition, he'll probably be able to menatlly run circles around all of us if he lives to be 100 - plus he's almost 7 years younger than McCain. I don't have the same impression of McCain - or of Obama for that matter, although I daresay he'[s got the better mind of the two if all we're looking at is raw intellect.

RH - I meant to say GENDER has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. lol

Morning Peeps,

Sorry Craig, I don't see ageism and sexism as the same thing. Gender does not impact one's ability to perform the job of the president, where advanced age could. Also my understanding (according to polls) is that the group most troubled by McCain's age is his own peers. Also comparing the ages of people in leadership positions in the govt. to the presidents (or candidates) age doesn't make a lot of sense of to me, the presidency is a 24/7 job, the speaker is not. It's very common to comment on how much people have aged while in the White House, the stresses and strains of the job are constant, I think it's very appropriate to ask if 72 is just too old to undertake the responsibilities of the White House. I think McCain is too old.

Wasn't comparing Hawking and McCain.
Was pointing out that the body and mind work separately.

Not comparing "drugs and alcohol to imprisonment and torture".

"drugs and alcohol" affect the mind.

"imprisonment and torture" affect the body.

Flatus -- Your sensible shoes story reminded me of a lesson I learned about sensible shoes early on.

When I was in college, I had to pick up Ralph Nader from National airport and bring him back to campus for a speech. I was a strange child and had crushes on unlikely people. When my peers had crushes on rockers and movie stars, I had big crush Ralph Nader.

This day I was dressed to kill -- cute little suit with a flirty peplum jacket and pencil skirt and four-inch heels. I met him at the gate and we had to walk through the airport to the pick up area where a driver was waiting for us. Ralph is a bout 6'4". I am only 5 feet even, so he towered over me. His strides were also sooo much longer than mine -- and I was also hobbled by the pencil skirt and four-inch heels. Ralph loped speedily through the airport while I skitter-trotted trying to keep up with him, my heels tip-tapping on the slippery marble floors of the terminal.

Ralph slowed just long enough to make a point: "Alicia," he said, "If you want to go places in this life, you're going to need better shoes."

My idol had spoken! I still like my high heels -- but I don't wear them as much -- and never to airports.

jamie - ANWR and offshore drilling is the republican meme for energy independence - rather than use less energy and develop alternatives. I suspect Fry holds that opinion.

Now those two self-contained conversations have given way to a broad clash of familiar product lines: Republican conservatism and Democratic liberalism. That clash has been obscured by the extended Obama-Clinton contest. But the huge stakes it carries for a discontented electorate ensure it will dominate the general election campaign.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/us/politics/09caucus.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I meant to say GENDER has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. lol Posted by: pogo

The response to that was only a little joke. Sex has caused a problem for a few presidents. I knew what you meant. You spoke of menopause. Isn't that what you meant when you said "the ability to sire or bear children" ?

This is funny. And I say Amen.

Fisking Andrea Mitchell

But the last bastion of acceptable, politically incorrect stereotyping is making fun of Southerners. And we’re damned tired of it.

http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/fisking-andrea-mitchell/

What an extremely interesting discussion you all have been having.
With regard to Craig's comments about a possible backlash -- the most reliable voting group in this country has always been older people. What will be interesting here is the Baby Boomers -- once the largest generation -- against the Millenials, now the largest generation.
Insofar as experience goes ... I would put it to all of you that Sen Obama is actually about 25 years old in terms of the American experience. At least according to his autobiography it was at about that age that he began to learn where he fit in to the larger tapestry of America.

I would put it to all of you that Sen Obama is actually about 25 years old in terms of the American experience. maggisd

Good point!
And his American experience has been filled with Write, Ayers, Rezko - well, you get the picture.

Nick
Adjust his gait? Ralph Nader? Surely you jest.

"Let's take the "old generation" and turn them into SOYLENT