Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Good morning all! Happy Heat Wave Monday.

This morning I saw a news clip of McCain in Louisiana, he was walking down some stairs and his gait was very tentative. The camera zoomed out and showed Cindy gripping his arm -- but it looked more like she was steadying him, less like he was assisting her. It was not a good picture, he did not look healthy.

As sure they will......

Hmm
Not really an interesting post Craig. Sorry, this is the forst time I am not impressed.

Prof Marcia -- I would love to see a good discussion of feminism begin again. It may be more important now than it was in the 70s. For one thing, have you noticed that even among some women, to even speak of sexism is now a scoffable offense? That is learned behavior.

Patsi,

Yes. I have noticed that women (and men) seem reluctant to talk about
feminism (sexism) today. I'm not sure why. But, after this primary, isn't it
an important subject?

Craig,

In relation to your post, ageism is another important "ism" that most
postmodern people don't want to address. Maybe it's because aging itself
has become almost shameful in the 21st century.

Many of the women I know feel forced to practice self-mutilation techniques in the form of elective medical procedures like: needles in their faces, knives carving their bodies, ingesting risky potents and pharmaceuticals just to appear younger.

A man in the public eye like McCain will certainly be attacked by the
youth police.

It's interesting to note that the liberals are the politically incorrect
party this election season hurling sexist and ageist remarks at
candidates.

It is coming back to bite the DNC's butt in more ways than they realize now. For example, one of my sister's friends in Washington (state) is a very rich woman who has given pots of money to the Democratic party. She emailed my sister that it's over. Not another dime.

Her feeling is that, had Obama needed MI and FL, a revote would have happened. She saw that whole thing as a backroom deal...and she was not amused.

The DNC better hope that the blogger boys at MoveOn et al have a lot of money and energy.

Craig.
Can you expand the meaning of the 5th paragraph..

Expect open season in the coming campaign for implicitly bashing the elderly as McCain's political foes and some media personalities stereotype him in ways that are justifiably considered off limits regarding Barack Obama's race.

Just saw your last post Marcia -- and the ageism is yet another thing my sister's friend (68 years old) is furious about.

Jason. You may need to take yourself to another level and then maybe something will pop ! and you will see the basis for the article.

Does Craig have or reflect a motivation or purpose? It may not be clear now but most times a post today of little meaning will become very clear down the road.

Ping -- Regarding race.....I truly believe media people would have lost their jobs if they'd spoken in the same terms with regard to race as they did regarding gender.

Prof Marsha
I have also noticed a resistance to the subject of sexism.If you bring it up in conversation it seems to be just passed off as whining.I don't know if is because of anti Hillary bias or not but the issue needs to be adressed!!! Maybe Hillary in some form through the Senate can lend a voice to the issue? I listened to her Sat. speach again and the 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling is so spot on!!! Now women and men alike need to smash a big HOLE in it!!!

I don't think it's good to speculate.

It would probably be wise for him to take a few days off, dump the advisers who stuck the Louisiana speech in his face, and see his doc.

and a tip of the hat to hillary clinton, who turned out to be a democrat after all. no surprise...except to some msm types.

questioning mccain's age is not...repeat...not ageism, which i define as prejudice againce the elderly because...and only because, they are old.

the segment of the population that is most concerned about mccain's advanced age is americans over 60, which includes me. we know how we feel physically and mentally.

so don't start that crap. if sombody says mccain is too old to be president, it's not prejudice...it just may be true in and of itself. [he is, really]...but that's my opinion, and it has nothing to do with him as a person; it's that he's too old for the job.

To me the age issue really isn't about age but about health. Just to say someone is "too old" for a job is wrong without adding why.

This is another subject designed to enrage especially older women. As I have aged (62) I notice I am ignored more and more or patronized -there is nothing more insulting then being called "young lady."
Sometimes I feel like I have become invisible.

J P
Agreed.Most of my conversations with my friends at my local gym regarding Sen.McCain for POTUS result in a discussion of age but it is mostly said by peaple over 60 for the reasons you stated.For me in this election age is not an issue.Its his 100 years in Iraq that I have a problem with.

Yeap, no old people, no women. It may start stepping on a lot of people's toes. Lets just let the young people take care of this country. Unfortunately I don't think the problems will hold their attention long enough and it will require some work.

People don't like this post because it involves you guys also. We are all getting old and those kids are waiting to put us out to sea.

The young people were complaining so much about this war and which candidate was actually against it. How many protests did you see on college campuses? I may have missed them but most of the protests I saw involved older people, women, old hippies, and people in other countries.

Age-ism schmage-ism...

Haven't you heard? "60" is "the new 40" and "dead" is "the new 90."

"60" is "the new 40" only for the purposes of delaying paying social security

I was just reading the early a.m. comments and this line from one of PM's messages jumped out, "...I only hope Hillary has enough sense to run away from Camp Obama as fast as her sensible shoes can take her!"

Although I agree with PM's political advice for Mrs Clinton, what I really want to focus on is the "sensible shoes" aspect of her candidacy.

I've always worn sensible shoes--the Army taught me all about that. Stinky didn't start wearing them until she was in her 40s. That was too late for her--painful bunions.

We sought to impart this learned-knowledge on one of our daughters who, to our eyes, was wearing shoes that we thought would ultimately cause her problems. She came up with the range of excuses, like, in my position I have to wear them, they're really comfortable, I don't have anything else that goes with that outfit, etc.

Daughter is now 46 and has bunions. And, despite all the earlier rationalizations, she is now starting to wear sensible shoes. (I suppose the ladies in my family are profoundly lucky that they weren't born in China during the first part of the last century when they would likely have had their feet mutilated so that they couldn't run away from their philandering husbands.)

Now the moral of the story, Despite their painful feet that may cause them to walk tentatively, they are much wiser than they were before they acquired bunions. Does anyone doubt that my daughter is now an enforcing member of the shoe police? That she is now smarter and wiser than she was 15-years ago?

Craig,
Yes, ageism is rearing it's ugly head.
Remember a while back, Obama accused McCain of 'losing his bearings'. I thought then, here we go.

Lard, 90 is sounding a lot closer all the time.

Morning everyone. I went back to work last night after having the last 2 weeks off. Lots of flooding here. I had to take an alternate route home because the exit I take onto the highway was closed because it was flooded. My parents basement has water in every room. The carpet is pretty much ruined. I have a question for Jamie , I believe. If I remember right , awhile ago you had a post on your blog about a dinner party. Everyone that participated in this blog entry was allowed to pick 10 guests they would like to have at this dinner party. Did anyone have the foresight to pick Barack Obama as one of their 10 guests?

Patsi,

I'm glad your sister's friend is furious.

To some of the other posters:

With all due respect, no one is really suggesting that ageism isn't now going to be an ugly subtext of this election?

Could these be some of the same people who think sexism played no
part in bringing down Hillary Clinton?

Not really an interesting post Craig. Sorry, this is the forst time I am not impressed. Posted by: Jason | June 9, 2008 6:36 AM

Jason,
Tthe way I read Craig's post was that McCain should prepare for the criticism. Not that he's too old, but that since Obama didn't hesitate in playing on peoples sexism against Hillary, McCain should expect him to use ageism against him.

Craig is even looking at the possible bright side of it, where McCain is concerned He's predicting that those who see the Obama campaign will try to create a prejudice against McCain because of his age, and people will not stand for it this time. They will unite against the mistreatment.

Flatus,

I like your sensible shoes narrative in reference to my earlier post.

My mother told me stories about how she always wore heels because women in the 50s (and before I spose) were expected to wear them. But, now her feet are ruined or they hurt her a lot and she goes to the doctor constantly for help with her various foot problems. She blames all the pain on her earlier vanity and those "dreadful" heels.

On the other hand, isn't it fair to point out that women and minorities have achieved tremendous success over the past thirty years in educating the people as well as the power centers as to the issues surrounding sexism and racism. It is one of the glaring faults of us liberals to only focus on the distance ahead and to fail to celebrate the distance traveled. It adds a new dimension to that fault when those who care about these issues start to pit one ism against another ism...seems like a VERY slippery slope to me.

have noticed that women (and men) seem reluctant to talk about feminism (sexism) today. I'm not sure why. But, after this primary, isn't it an important subject? prof marcia Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 7:06 AM

Marcia,
I don't talk about it as much any more because I've felt that we that experience it agree with one another, but no one else is even listening. They still don't acknowledge that it even exists.
Some don't seem to see that racism, sexism, ageism, all the isms, are all equally wrong.

Ping, Thankx....

Chloe,
Good. I am there....

But do we reed to much into age-sim?

According to me me, the only ism that is affluent now is sexism. And this is coming from a BLACK MAN!
I think the age-ism is just a smoke curtain... But maybe I am seeing it differently.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070725obama,1,5894874.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout&ctrack=2&cset=true

Obama's fundraisers include big fish
By Mike Dorning and John McCormick | Tribune staff reporters
July 26, 2007
: WASHINGTON - Even as Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has promoted a large following of small-dollar contributors representing ordinary Americans, his campaign has built an old-school political fundraising machine that relies heavily on the wealthy and the powerful, including a Chicago-based hedge fund manager who earned $1.4 billion last year

Despite the media attention the campaign has grabbed by attracting 258,000 donors—in many cases people of modest means who have given over the Internet—a much smaller group of large donors provides most of the funds for the campaign. And those large donors are best tapped through fundraisers who can call on networks of acquaintances and business associates who can easily write big checks.

Chloe,

I think you're right. Craig's post is a sort of warning to Camp McCain that
Obama will unleash his pit bulls to attack McCain with the age club, just
as they attacked Hillary with misogyny.

I agree, too, that Craig was also warning Obama that just like his machine's sexist remarks rallied women to Hillary, ageism used by Obama's surrogates,
could propel folks over 60 to McCain.

Flatus,
Proving once again that the best lessons are those we learn the hard way. Thanks for sharing that story. It says so much.

Dog, good points - but lets get to substance. BHO has done?????

Do not throw all into one basket with relation to Bush. McCain is almost a HIllary when compared to Bush.

This will continue to reveal itself

Obama to visit Detroit on June 16th. It's a public event and fund-raiser. Michelle Obama was originally going to attend this event alone. It was to be held at a place called the "Rattlesnake Club". (Insert your own joke) Barack will now be attending this with her , so the venue will probably change. Bring your checkbook! Here are the full details and of course , there are lots of comments with it!

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080609/NEWS01/806090351

Marcia,
I turned and asked my husband this morning if he thought McCains age should be worrisome. He said that he trusted McCain more than Obama even if his thinking has slowed down to half. McCain is just fine. I think the way he walks down stairs (as in one of the posts), balance, has nothing to do with his reasoning capabilities and intelligence. I trust him.

A few years ago , I used to take tennis lessons with a friend named Tim. Tim was a year or two younger than me. We were 30-somethings and occasionally high school kids would join our adult lessons class. Tim and I would root each other on. Encourage each other to kick the butts of these "young punks". I think what Dog is saying "ageism" could mean not only discounting McCain as being too old , but discounting Obama as being "too young".

I believe that people will vote for whoever they think will do what's best on the matters important to them. I know a lot of conservatives where I live. They may not be happy with Bush and the war or the economy , but they will still hold onto their conservative values. That won't change.

IMO, it isn't youth that older people fear but youth
who have no understanding of history and act like they invented "new" politics are are willing to repeat the talking points of the campaign even when they are not true.

Good. I am there....
But do we reed to much into age-sim?
Posted by: Jason | June 9, 2008 8:25 AM

Jason,

Good, because I respect your opinion and I'm always open to suggestions.

Yeah, we may be reading too much into ageism.

But I would put nothing past his competitors.

I don't remember anyone saying they had a "fear of the young." I'd put my PhD son in the presidency in a heartbeat and he's 35. (Likewise with my 39 year old daughter but she hates politics and politicians....)

In Obama's case, it had to do with a lack of experience.

I DO have a problem with the kind of young posters I see on Kos and other places. They appear to have been raised by no one. They make crude sexist, sexual and rude remarks continually. I wouldn't trust one of them around my daughter or granddaughter, that's for sure. Because of my criticism of those types, dog, you and Sheila decided that I must hate the younger generation, and posted that theory. In fact, I'm criticising whatever morons in my generation raised these idiots.

Courtesy of Al Hunt:

[S]ome Clintonistas persist in the whiny complaint that it was all about sexism. . . . Clinton herself complained of the "deeply offensive" sexual discrimination she faced particularly in the media . . .
Here's my question, is discussing the pervasive sexism in the Media now whining? Really? You sure you want to put it that way Al Hunt?

This is the "it's only sexism" version of the malign acceptance of sexism. I wonder if it too is acceptable. Sadly, it probably is.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/9/83712/17961

Remember how Reagan turned the age question on its ear and made Mondale look foolish.

Dog , do you want an increase in taxes to pay for services?

The Three Acts of a Stolen Nomination

"The answer for me (and for many others) is that I will not condone the misogyny, delegate stealing, and race-baiting from Obama and his people. I am a Democrat precisely to fight against the type of campaign run by Obama. I will not be blackmailed into voting for a candidate whose tactics I find repulsive.

One of the areas I found most repulsive was the pro-male and anti-woman symbolism employed by Obama and the Media."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/09/the-three-acts-of-a-stolen-nomination/

....youth who have no understanding of history and act like they invented "new" politics are are willing to repeat the talking points of the campaign even when they are not true....
Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker A | June 9, 2008 8:38 AM

Katherine

Some were talking about this on yesterdays blog. Some posters just keep repeating Obama's talking points, that they've heard over and over the last few months. It's as though they think, if you repeat them enough times, then they are true.

And I just don't understand this idea, that it's time to rid ourselves of the old generation so that the new generation can take control. I understand wanting change, but can't believe somethink that it can only come from someone that is in the "correct generation."

P. Diidy was on the MTV Awards last week and he seemingly ended each sentence he spek with "YES WE CAN!" If I remember right , he helped lead the MTV campaign of "Vote Or Die" in 2000 or 2004. When he was asked who he had voted for in the previous election he said , "I didn't vote. I've never voted before."I thought , "He's trying to get people to get out and vote and he's never voted before?"

P. Diddy , I mean. I've never said Obama was young. Afterall , he's older than I am. LOL!

Remember how Reagan turned the age question on its ear and made Mondale look foolish.

Posted by: Lynn C | June 9, 2008 8:45 AM

My mistake I forgot nothing important happened before Obama got elected to the state senate.

Tickets for the Obama fundraiser in Detroit will cost $1,000...$2,300....and $4,600.

Thanks Gordo

Obama supporters may want to think hard before linking age and competence:
Kennedy--------76
Kerry-------------65
Leahy------------68
Pelosi-----------68
Dean-------------60
Dodd-------------64
Daschle---------61
Biden-------------66

The minute I saw Keith Olbermann commenting about John McCain wearing Depends, I knew all bets were off on the ageism issue. I find it disgusting, and wrote a letter to all the head honchos way back in March when I heard the comment. You can say a lot of things about John McCain and his stand on the issues, but reducing him to a geriatric in diapers is simply beyond the pale (and don't look for it to sit too well with the older people in, say, Iowa, for instance.)

Dog , my brother-in-law is a property tax assessor. He can tell you how people feel about property taxes. LOL!

Corey,
just saw some pictures on CNN of some of those floods you were talking about. What a mess. Not sure it was your state though, but similar outcome.

Patsi,

I couldn't agree with you more! It's not fear of the young, it's fear of people
without a moral compass.

I remember my best friend complaining back when we were 21 and hanging out at a bar. He said , "The people in this bar are all OLD! They must be at least 25!" I looked at him and said, "What the hell are you talking about?! 25 isn't old!" Well , I'd better get to bed soon. Have a good day all.

I'm in the same generation as Obama. But, as a woman over 40, Camp Obama
certified me as an old hag.

But, I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.

I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:08 AM

In that one sentence, there lies the problem.
If you doubt it, look at Hollywood.

Obama gaffe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxBX8sz3tO8&feature=related

I guess if you're a woman who is 43, that's different from being a man who is 46.

Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:08 AM

In that one sentence, there lies the problem.
If you doubt it, look at Hollywood.

Posted by: chloe | June 9, 2008 9:10 AM

You said two mouthfulls there sisters. Sexism and ageism have strong ties, don't they? I remarked recently that one of my favorite episodes of Six Feet Under is the one where the mother (Ruth) goes shopping with her new friend, Bettina (Kathy Bates character) and Bettina shoplifts some expensive lipstick. Ruth is shocked but Bettina informs her that it is completely easy to get away with it at their ages...middle-aged (and older in this case) women are completely invisible.

Thanks Ally.

Ally,

You're so right, "Sexism and ageism have strong ties." You're brilliant.
And there in is the whole point, I believe, of Craig's post!!

This is back from early May, but it was when I first saw it as more to come.

Obama accuses McCain of 'losing his bearings'
"......Let me tell you something, it's no old man's job," Murtha, 75, told a union audience.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080509/D90HQJSG2.html

Ally, Chloe, Prof Marcia -- you get it. thanks.

When someone's age (and health) are directly relevant to deciding the subject at hand, it's not "ageism". If McCain were 98 years old, wouldn't that be a relevant factor in deciding whether to give him the hardest job in the country for 4-8 years? Well, he's "only" 72, but has a record of poor health, including cancer surgery this year. And that's a record that's largely kept secret - that cancer surgery wasn't announced, either by McCain or by his primary opponents.

But even apart from health concerns, his age itself is a problem. The last president we had who was that old spent a lot of the time napping through the job (but looked peppy for his TV appearances). While he napped, ambitious youngsters ran Iran/Contra out of his office's basement, while he checked in occasionally when they needed the old man's signature.

We need a 24x7 president. With a lot of energy. Whose VP will be unlikely to have to replace him when he's out sick or dies.

John McCain's age, and his health at his age, are concerns that are completely different from sexism. In fact, saying that age, which is a factor that most certainly does affect performance, is equivalent to gender, which certainly does not, is some real sexism. Ironic that you are reversing the actual sensible logic in comparing them. It shows that Washington DC is still a town of old men, rather than recognizing the vigor of the young and the female.

"It sounds crazy at first. Amid dire reports about the toxic political environment for Republican candidates and the challenges facing John McCain, many top GOP strategists believe he can defeat Barack Obama — and by a margin exceeding President Bush’s Electoral College victory in 2004."

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=2&threadid=795810

Patsi , Prof Marcia
A good discussion on feminism last night. It reminded me of how much things have changed. When I graduated from HS in 71 there were jobs and classes that women did not do. Those were men's jobs.

Just after that it all changed and opened up. Nothing is perfect and there are many things that need improvement.

I tend to agree with the direction that Patsi is going with the sexist comments coming out of the Obama camp. I would have expected such comments from the right wing of the Republican party. But to hear them come out of the Democratic party was a shock. Then to see no attempt to slow them down and have the people protesting the comments poopooed as out of touch partisans was outrageous.
There was serious sexism coming out of the Obama campaign yet nothing was ever done. If anybody is out of touch with the American people I am begining to believe it is Obama.

Jack

Ally, Chloe, Prof Marcia -- you get it. thanks.
Posted by: Craig Crawford | June 9, 2008 9:33 AM

Craig,

I don't hear that often. Thanks to you.

And coming from you, it means a lot.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99456

Matthew, if the discussion of age in this campaign stays in the clinical realm you describe, it's fine. My point is that we are heading into an environment where "depends" jokes and the like will be deemed fair game.

Matthew:

You're not referring to that crazy old coot Ronald Reagan are you? That President that changed the trajectory of America, in a way that Bill Clinton did not?

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times. I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

Barack Obama, January 14, 2008

Obama supporters may want to think hard before linking age and competence:
Kennedy--------76
Kerry-------------65
Leahy------------68
Pelosi-----------68
Dean-------------60
Dodd-------------64
Daschle---------61
Biden-------------66

Posted by: ubns | June 9, 2008 8:58 AM

Very good point.
That is why I am saying, we are reading too much into this.
BO will not get escape this time with these tactics. Do not think msm will support him this time.

"one of my favorite episodes of Six Feet Under "

God, I LOVED that show! I didn't have HBO, so my sister taped the entire first season and sent it to me. I had no idea what to expect, because I hadn't really paid any attention to the tv news about it. My sis said it was a family of morticians. So I popped the first tape in one morning around 5:30 am....was watching it when my son left for classes at Vandy, was watching when he got back and he just shook his head.

BUT, when he got home from meeting some friends that night, he too popped in the first tape....and he was still up watching them when I got up the next morning.

And Craig, I agree. Health concerns are open for discussion (just like Obama's smoking, which some find a subject for debate.) Personally, I don't agree with the smoking dialogue, but many, many people find it relevant.

Patsi: It was a great show...HBO has lost some really fabulous programming in the last few years and they haven't quite figured out how to get back on track.

Yes, ageism is rearing it's ugly head.
Remember a while back, Obama accused McCain of 'losing his bearings'. I thought then, here we go. (posted by Chloe.)

.....

Exactly, Chloe. I heard someone on CNN yesterday say "does McCain really want to be on a stage and debate someone half his age and six inches taller?" Another comment, reference to him choosing Jindal as his vp, (all laughing) "does he want to choose someone young enough to be his grandson?" (all laughing). This is all done under the guise of "news" and these people, whoever they are, (what the hey is a political analyst anyway and what are the qualifications) they slip these little comments in between somewhat serious discussions.

Right now on MSNBC they are providing cover for Michelle Obama for some reason. I don't know what the little segment was all about. Maybe something really IS coming out on Michelle, or they are afraid it will.

This thread raises some new questions for me now that I must give more conscious consideration to McCain's candidacy. Does John McCain have a workout regimen? Does he have limitations on the kinds of exercise he can do because of his past injuries? What does he do to keep fit? What does he eat, and what medications or supplements does he take? These may seem purely nosey questions, but the answers could improve the confidence level of voters concerned about the age-factor.

Obama would be wise to encourage the media to reign all of the old man talk in a bit. Older people are VERY reliable voters.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99464

Interesting comparison, Ally. As i've said here before, my own battle against the smokes will keep me from ever criticizing Obama's smoking, be it past or present. If anything, his struggle could be an inspiration to us all -- if he really has beat it. Would like to see him talk more about it.

Wow! That was a surprise.

Thanks for your kind comment, Craig.

Ally and Chloe, I guess we deserve a pat on the back.

BO will not get escape this time with these tactics. Do not think msm will support him this time. Jason | June 9, 2008 9:41 AM

And if the media does support it, we the audience are so much more aware and skeptical now. This election didn't just make better, more talented candidates, it made the voters more knowledgeable too.

Ivy: Personally, I think he should commit to one term only. It would alleviate concerns for many voters. And, if he wins and is in superior health at the end of 4 years and has had a fabulous Presidency (doubtful!), he can run again and would be forgiven.

As far as his age goes, so much of health is related to heredity (they all die young in my family.) He should just keep on parading that mother around. She looks amazing!

OK
Now to the post of the day. I think that age is a problem that McCain can deal with. A lot of what draws attention to his age is his arthritis, from all the abuse he took while in prison. He should set down and have a long talk about what it is like to have to live in his body. Having worked construction a good part of my life , advil is my friend. I took 2 this morning. I can only imagine what his shoulders feel like on a rainy morning like this morning.
Also, I agree with several commenter and with Craig that there could be a backlash from stupid comments coming out of the Obama camp. But then again that would be "situation normal".

Jack

Ally and Chloe, I guess we deserve a pat on the back.
Posted by: prof marcia | June 9, 2008 9:48 AM

Marcia, And those back pats don't happen all that often. I guess, at least Craig, doesn't think we're 'invisible'.

gotta go...duty calls.

Craig: I have commented before on the evil nature of cigarette addiction and my husband's struggles. I have seen a perfectly lovely man turn into a stark-raving lunatic while he was trying to quit (threw a beautiful footed bowl at me—missed me, hit the wall—busted into a million pieces—wedding gift—irreplaceable). That's why I back way off the smoking criticisms as well. I have seen the addictive experience first hand and refuse to judge anyone on this issue.

BTW: Because I like to bring everything back to the movies, one of my favorite films of all time is The Insider, about Dr. Jeffrey Wigand.

I think Obama's smoking is definitely an issue. At least it should be, but then this is Obama, and there is nothing said about it. Anybody who smokes is at a health risk. That I know about because I am now suffering the results of it. What about his past drug use? Never used drugs, but does it leave damage? What medications does he take? I remember when somebody was forced out of a race bacause he took anti-depressants. Who was that?

It is fair to look at the physical condition of the candidates, but let's look at BOTH of them.

Jack: Getting old is hell enough, I don't know how McCain handles it. Very interesting point but I doubt it will be discussed as it will only draw attention to one of his negatives. Do you agree?

whiskeyjack,

I appreciated your post about how opportunities for women have changed since you were high school.

It's also interesting to note that you, a man, also picked up on all the sexism coming from the Obama campaign. A lot of men seem to think we (women) are making too much of this. But, I don't think we can ever discuss prejudice too much whether it's sexism, ageism or racism. How else can we improve as a society if we don't address these issues when we see them?

Great piece in the NY TImes:

http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/woman-in-charge-women-who-charge/?ex=1213588800&en=13e31bb233babef5&ei=5070&emc=eta1

A US Supreme Court justice is appointed for life or until he or she chooses to retire. So I guess age is okay in this case.

The media pundits better watch the agism - aren't many of them pushing 70? Even with all the make-up and camera filters you can see them aging.

Well after they beat us up for being women, now they will beat up the entire baby boom generation for gettting old. It is like a big send off....efff you old farts you just don't get it....

"change"...."yes we can".....blahhhhhhhhh...

I would add "classism" to this discussion. That may be the dems Achilles Heel now that Hillary isn't in the race.

All this talk about "sensible" shoes reminds me of a poem written for my best friend Sarah that closed with:

I can see us several years hence in our comfortable shoes, still giggling and being young because we came from the same sandbox.

Patsi and Ally,

Damn.......... One of the best shows ever on TV.
I was in NY last month and bought all the seasons at Virgin.... I always felt it was an underrated show, nevertheless very straight and amazing acting by the cast

I thought "youth" wanted to breakdown stereotypes and cliches not reinforce them

This election didn't just make better, more talented candidates, it made the voters more knowledgeable too.

Posted by: chloe | June 9, 2008 9:48 AM

Can I get an AMEN on this one!!!!!!

This is what Mccain and Obama need to be very cautious about.

Do others here know who Stephen Hawking is?.
His body and health problems never affected his brain.
He had a computer system attached to his wheelchair and has accomplished great things, in spite of his physical disabilities. His works include;
* A Brief History of Time,
* Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays,
* The Universe in a Nutshell,
* On The Shoulders of Giants. The Great Works of Physics Astronomy,

Jacks right. McCains physical problems have nothing to do with his cognitive skills. His body has aged, but his experience means a lot. I trust him more than I trust Obama.

Jason and Patsi: Six Feet Under was great because it addressed so many issues: Getting older, being gay, being young, being black, being married with a kid (boredom), mental illness, dealing with our own mortality and, most importantly, dealing with family. And all of these issues were dealt with in a very honest way, as Jason said.

"Hillary Clinton's encouraging her supporters to conclude that most of her campaign's woes stemmed from sexism, when her identity as a woman and former first lady were so integral to her running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics."

How about this?

Barack Obama's encouraging his supporters to continually charge racism, when his identity as a charismatic black man and son of a "poor-and-on-welfare" white woman were so integral to his running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics.

McCain's health does worry me....but "depends" jokes are simply disgusting. How would it go over if Oaf-erman started making snide comments, asking Chris Matthews if his diabetes had left him impotent?

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99481

Dog, as i tried to get across in today's post, i only agree with half of HRC's sexism case -- yes, there was sexism but I think it helped her more than it hurt her. And to your point about the flip side of ageism -- Might be something to that, but the media celebration of Obama's youthful appeal trumps it. Finally, I think all presidential campaigns are about identity politics -- this time we just gave it a name.

Wish I could go on, folks, but have to get some other stuff done and you're having a fine discussion without me.

Obama is due for a check-up. His one page report stated his last was on January 15, 2007.

Keith likes 'em young...his live-in girlfriend is 24. I'm POSITIVE she loves him for his mind.

Craig, Ally, et al:

The same thing applies to Obama's past drug use as to his cigarette smoking -- it's an opportunity to educate, enlighten, and inspire. Too many Americans, especially the young, are caught in the cycle of abusing drugs and alcohol. It stunts their educations, limits their opportunities, damages their health, impairs their relationships with family and others. I'm sure Obama's drug history will get dragged out again before this is over - effective leadership would begin with changing views that addiction is a real physical/mental disease and should be treated as such, not moral weakness, character failings and willful misbehavior.

The older I get the less youthfulness impresses me.

And if you look at our society today, I would say we have lost many common courtesies and mutual respect.

It's not a pretty scene.

(my mother a young 80-something, made an error driving in the city....a car drove up to her and yelled "F*CK you" and waved the finger jecture towards her......)

If this is youth, I don't want any.

For all the Carol Burnett fans, there is a new book out by Vickie Lawrence as "MaMa" that takes on both age and sex.

http://www.amazon.com/Mama-President-Good-Lord-Why/dp/1401604099

Sexism and ageism were both at work in this prmary season against Hillary Clinton and her supporters. If I had a dollar for each time I heard "old hag" in reference to Hillary or any of the women who supported her campaign, the sum would pay for a a cross country road trip in a 32-foot RV!

Ivy: I think Obama needs to be very careful discussing his past drug use, especially when speaking to high schoolers. When he discussed it in the fall at a high school in New Hampshire, it made a bit of news. My boys saw it being discussed and commented that Obama was kind of a goof off in high school and still ended up successful and even went to Columbia and Harvard. I told the kids that I'm 100% positive Senator Obama would encourage them to avoid drinking, using drugs and goofing off while in high school and NOT wait until they are a junior or senior in college to apply themselves.

And who was it, Chris Matthews? who said the American people were not ready to watch a woman age before their eyes?

Remember when the press was so respectful of a president that they would not even flim or take a picture of Franklin Roosevelt in a wheel chair?

"In Obama's case, it had to do with a lack of experience."

"His age isn't questioned but his lack of experience is. And that is a legitimate"

"His body has aged, but his experience means a lot. I trust him more than I trust Obama."

While thinking through my comments on Craig's blog and the ties of ageism and sexism to this election cycle, I keep reading this "no experience" here today, more prominent than most, and it's obvious it relates to the subject. But, what has McCain's age and his 35 years of experience in the political office got us?

mornin' all.

What a weekend - if you like hot and humid, that is. Today is more of the same.

I know coming from WV this opens me up to joking, but really, everything is relative, isn't it? Ageism - as identity politics - the charges were leveled at Reagan - remember the Doonesbury trip through Reagan's brain? They didn't stick because he came across as witty and wise and (to some) sharp enough to be president despite his age. That will be McCain's challenge in negating concerns about his age - to convince voters that the ravages of time haven't taken their toll on his mind. I don't care so much about his age, although I don't want someone who even at my advancing age reminds me of my grandfather, even though he's younger than my parents would be were they still alive. 71 isn't all that old anyway absent obvious changes - hell, he's only 6 years older than Mick Jagger. In may ways though he talks and acts as if he's a bunch older than he is - he seems to be rooted in the Republican and post WWII mentality, so no thank you very much. Obama's challenge will be to convince voters that there is meat on the bones of his campaign that will appeal to middle America. I don't think he's there yet.

The sexism thing is different - aside from the ability to sire or bear children, and that menopausal hormone thing that unlike senile dementia is treatable, sex has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. I've never heard anyone suggest that if only Thatcher or Indira Ghandi had been men, the would have been better leaders. At this point it doesn't matter anyway - there isn't a woman candidate is there? Have I missed something?

Jason-

AMEN

"... -- it's an opportunity to educate, enlighten, and inspire. Too many Americans, especially the young, are caught in the cycle of abusing drugs and alcohol.,.." Ivy Green | June 9, 2008 10:22

The only way to do this, is to convince them drugs aren't 'cool'.
You can tell them repeatedly that "It stunts their educations, limits their opportunities, damages their health, impairs their relationships with family and others". All true points and we know that, but they don't see it that way and won't listen.

You're right. Obama, with his huge following of young supporters could really make a difference. When he talks, they listen.

My time this week has been devoted to the entertainment of a thirteen-year old visitor, a new experience since my youngest is a college student about to turn 20 and I'm "losing touch" as I no longer spend time monitoring her activities and associations... I don't have either a "MyFace" or a "SpaceBook" page, but my niece has been showing me hers and her 100-plus BFF's ...this may be an over-generalization, but I think there's too much rudeness, discourtesy and downright coarseness in the interactions of these media. This is what passes for communication among kids? No wonder they go out and give the finger to 80-year olds?

"...- hell, he's only 6 years older than Mick Jagger.>>>Pogo

Hadn't thought of that. Guess we can take comfort in it though.
And at least he isn't as drug ravaged as old Mick.

Rez, that's 2 candidates whose lives of public sevice have brought us less than we should expect IMHO.

I swear our current President is mentally impaired. His solution for getting us through "this difficult period of high prices" is to open up ANWAR

Even if we were crazy enough to do that, how much of a supply would there be and how long would it take to get to market?

The man is a 6 foot plus empty headed talking point.

And who was it, Chris Matthews? who said the American people were not ready to watch a woman age before their eyes? izbeth
I think it was Rush Limbaugh

"sex has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader."
Might even keep her out of trouble too.

Just 17% of voters nationwide believe that most reporters try to offer unbiased coverage of election campaigns. A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that four times as many—68%--believe most reporters try to help the candidate that they want to win.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/voters_give_media_failing_grades_in_objectivity_for_election_2008

RH, drugs and alcohol, imprisonment and torture - I don't imagine either of those combinations helps you stay particularly sharp as you age.

And Stephen Hawking? I don't buy the comparison - he's a frickin' genius of the Einstein caliber who happens to have a disease that has incapacitated him - short of some progressive mental condition, he'll probably be able to menatlly run circles around all of us if he lives to be 100 - plus he's almost 7 years younger than McCain. I don't have the same impression of McCain - or of Obama for that matter, although I daresay he'[s got the better mind of the two if all we're looking at is raw intellect.

RH - I meant to say GENDER has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. lol

Wasn't comparing Hawking and McCain.
Was pointing out that the body and mind work separately.

Not comparing "drugs and alcohol to imprisonment and torture".

"drugs and alcohol" affect the mind.

"imprisonment and torture" affect the body.

Flatus -- Your sensible shoes story reminded me of a lesson I learned about sensible shoes early on.

When I was in college, I had to pick up Ralph Nader from National airport and bring him back to campus for a speech. I was a strange child and had crushes on unlikely people. When my peers had crushes on rockers and movie stars, I had big crush Ralph Nader.

This day I was dressed to kill -- cute little suit with a flirty peplum jacket and pencil skirt and four-inch heels. I met him at the gate and we had to walk through the airport to the pick up area where a driver was waiting for us. Ralph is a bout 6'4". I am only 5 feet even, so he towered over me. His strides were also sooo much longer than mine -- and I was also hobbled by the pencil skirt and four-inch heels. Ralph loped speedily through the airport while I skitter-trotted trying to keep up with him, my heels tip-tapping on the slippery marble floors of the terminal.

Ralph slowed just long enough to make a point: "Alicia," he said, "If you want to go places in this life, you're going to need better shoes."

My idol had spoken! I still like my high heels -- but I don't wear them as much -- and never to airports.

jamie - ANWR and offshore drilling is the republican meme for energy independence - rather than use less energy and develop alternatives. I suspect Fry holds that opinion.

I meant to say GENDER has nothing to do with the ability of a woman to be a country's leader. lol Posted by: pogo

The response to that was only a little joke. Sex has caused a problem for a few presidents. I knew what you meant. You spoke of menopause. Isn't that what you meant when you said "the ability to sire or bear children" ?

This is funny. And I say Amen.

Fisking Andrea Mitchell

But the last bastion of acceptable, politically incorrect stereotyping is making fun of Southerners. And we’re damned tired of it.

http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/fisking-andrea-mitchell/

What an extremely interesting discussion you all have been having.
With regard to Craig's comments about a possible backlash -- the most reliable voting group in this country has always been older people. What will be interesting here is the Baby Boomers -- once the largest generation -- against the Millenials, now the largest generation.
Insofar as experience goes ... I would put it to all of you that Sen Obama is actually about 25 years old in terms of the American experience. At least according to his autobiography it was at about that age that he began to learn where he fit in to the larger tapestry of America.

I would put it to all of you that Sen Obama is actually about 25 years old in terms of the American experience. maggisd

Good point!
And his American experience has been filled with Write, Ayers, Rezko - well, you get the picture.

Nick
Adjust his gait? Ralph Nader? Surely you jest.

"Let's take the "old generation" and turn them into SOYLENT GREEN."

ROFL, Nick.

I've long said that Obama's secret plan to save Medicare and lower health costs is to put everyone over 60 on ice floats.

Adjust his gait? Ralph Nader? Surely you jest. maggisd

He must be thinking of someone else.

RH: Yes ... I, for one, cannot help but be concerned with the people he thought were OK or nice guys. Or the constant response that they were not the people he thought they were. Was the association entirely political? Was it based on an inability to see them for who they really were? Or was it a passive nature that is too accepting of others, no matter their views?

Nick -- Thank you. When Ralph did his 2000 ego run, which I think cost Al Gore a decisive victory, I completely fell out of love with Ralph and it did cross my mind that Ralph was a bit of a jerk for walking so fast.

Nonetheless, his lesson about the shoes still applied because I later went to work for a Congressman who was very tall like Ralph and I had to do the side-trot when accompanying him to the floor for a vote. In that case -- he had to walk pretty fast in order to make the vote.

Did you go up to Hillary's speech on Saturday?

pogo: You mentioned ANWR in an earlier post ... just for the record, Sen McCain is against drilling in ANWR.

Lizbeth, Nick: Fisking Andrea Mitchell

So I guess that eliminates James Webb as a potential running mate?

RH, not exactly - I believe only men can sire and women can bear the critters. It was a joke. No, the menopause thing is just one of those phyical distinctions I put up half jokingly. I don't think it makes a bit of difference.

RH, I wasn't suggesting you were equating drugs and alcohol with imprisonment and torture - I was. And I believe that almost anyone who has been subjected to prison and torture would say that does affect the mind, undoubtedly in different ways that drugs and alcohol, but for the vaset majority, I doubt that it helps.

McCain's mental agility can be questioned though I am more concerned about those 1200 pages of medical records and whether or not he is up to the physical stresses of the job. He always trots out his elderly mother, but doesn't mention his father's age of 70 at his death.

I've known people who were clear headed and sharp with an ability to learn new information in their 90s and people in their 40s who couldn't string two thoughts together without at rope. McCain tends to rely on catch phrases such as "my friends" and seems to have some difficulty learning new information such as the Sunni and Shiia errors. That mental acuity is something to keep and eye on between now and November for those thinking of voting for him.

Was the association entirely political? Was it based on an inability to see them for who they really were? Or was it a passive nature that is too accepting of others, no matter their views? maggisd

Whatever his choices and associations really meant doesn't matter much to me any more. The damage has been done. He has very little to look at, and where ever I look, these are the people and transactions I see. Add to that the fact that I don't like his style, and it's lack of substance, I don't even want to look much further.

Besides, this election is about much more. The DNC has betrayed us and I refuse to ignore it.

By the way, yesterday when I praised the men on this board....I just listed a few whose posts I'd just read...there are a BUNCH more including the noble Pogo, Sturge, Jason, EuroTom....Too many cool ones to list!

Warren and Rez are probably redeemable....:)

maggs, I'm glad to hear McCain is against drilling in ANWR - hopefully that means that will not hapen in the next 4-8 years.

Maggi, well, I think it does. I have already read something about his "Appalachian roots". I've heard a lot about code words lately and I think that is a code word for redneck, which means unsuitable for vp.

Just another case of classism (is that a word?).

Maggi, well, I think it does. I have already read something about his "Appalachian roots". I've heard a lot about code words lately and I think that is a code word for redneck, which means unsuitable for vp.

Just another case of classism (is that a word?).

Pogo: I suspect that one of the reasons the Bush Administration hooded the detainees and isolated them from each other was that we found out after Vietnam that our POWs drew strength from each other. I have found it interesting over the years that so many of the POWs rose to positions of prominence -- although surely some of them did not do well.
As to drug use ... I have read one or two interviews given by youthful friends and acquaintances of Sen Obama who state that his drug use was minimal and one guy even said he thought Obama was making it up entirely.

RH, not exactly - I believe only men can sire and women can bear the critters. It was a joke. No, the menopause thing is just one of those phyical distinctions I put up half jokingly. pogo

No, I was the one I was talking about. I was just making a 'little joke'. Didn't expect anyone to pay much attention to it.

And I do not agree with what you say, comparing drugs and alcohol to prison and aging.

But I was not criticizing you. Just commenting on 'things'.
Just playing on words.

Don't take me so seriously.

lizbeth - I believe that you'll find that "Appalachian roots" connotes a great deal more than just redneck, unless redneck is used in its expansive sense - backward, uneducated, inbred bigots who distrust outsiders and of course, revenuers.

lizbeth: I'm pretty certain classism is a word.

On the other hand, if Sen Webb is the VP nominee, then we'll know whether Sen Obama is going to make a push into Appalachia or intends to let it go. And, let's face it...Jim Webb is a somewhat younger version of Sen McCain...in temperament and life experience.

Craig,

I think you're overlooking something with your post. Ageism is very different from sexism. Age should definitely be an issue on the campaign. If you have to be a certain age to run for public office, why shouldn't there also be an interrogation of how old you can be and still run for president? Gender isn't a serious question with regards to someone's qualifications for president. Age is. It's a totally legitimate to ask in all seriousness: do we want to elect someone who may be prone to "senior moments?" Gender can't have a deleterious effect on one's ability to govern. Age can.

maggi, see, I just thought the Bush admin's torturers hooded the detainees because they liked the idea of torturing them - being sadistic bastards and all. See, the ringleader of that Abu Ghraib thing was one of those guys with Appalachian roots.

RH, I don't take much here too seriously.

lizbeth, Pogo: There is another sense in which one can take the phrase "Appalachian roots" -- in that an extremely large percentage of the residents of border or swing states have these same roots. It can also refer to residents of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa whose forebears crossed the Wilderness Trail ... many of these people are quite in touch with their roots, and have little experience with urbanized meterosexuals. That's why, I suspect, Al Gore did better than John Kerry (if only slightly).
To the extent that Sen Obama seems like a more eloquent version of John Kerry, he will have to work hard in these states, IMHO.

pogo: We don't have a clue in the world who the ringleader of the Abu Ghraib thing really was. All we know is that the guy who got the longest prison term was a prison guard.

pogo:

We'd better hit the deck : )

Pogo, PofU -- what if it's not Armageddon but instead the Rapture?

maggs, good point - Whoda thunk that the upper midwest was full of folks with Appalachian roots - no doubt clinging to their guns and churches, too. Actually I think Obama's challenge in the upper midwest is appealing to the farm and industrial working class. He lost dismally in the rural areas of most of those states - Iowa excluded.

The woman McCain dumped to marry Cindy speaks up.

"Carol insists she remains on good terms with her ex-husband, who agreed as part of their divorce settlement to pay her medical costs for life. ‘I have no bitterness,’

she says. ‘My accident is well recorded. I had 23 operations, I am five inches shorter than I used to be and I was in hospital for six months. It was just awful, but it wasn’t the reason for my divorce.

‘My marriage ended because John McCain didn’t want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html

PoU

There is a difference IMNSHO in questioning ones ability to perform in office due to age(your point imo) and ageism. ex. Kieth Olbermans "depends" comment.
As I said earlier He should have to answer questions of his age as it relates to his performance. So btw should Obama. 40 is one of those ages that men suddenly die from a heart attack without warning.

Jack

Pogo: Speaking as someone who spent three years in rural Northern Indiana trying to learn how not to be "you know, the one who went to college" -- I would say that they do, indeed, cling to their guns and religion ... but I have to say that never in my life before or since have I known people so kind, so helpful, so honest in their dealings with each other, and so willing to extend a hand even to an outsider.

maggs, he's the one I meant - I realize he may not have been the brains behind the operation - from everything I heard about it and him, he didn't have a lot of brains to bring to bear, but he apparently did have an abusive bent.

And if either happens, I'll probably wish I had reconsidered my position on religion.

I'm taking PU's advice and hitting the deck at the first loud noise I hear.

Thx Patsi,

You spared me a 200+ word rebuttal.

Although I'm sure I'll make you question your opinion down the road :)

Jack: Yes, there's definitely a distinction. "Wall-Mart greeter" McCain is a lot different from a serious discussion. My point is that age is an appropriate question for McCain.

maggs, I have no doubt about that. I've lived and worked in "Appalachian" areas for most of my life and have had the same experience with the folks around me.

Kind of one of those hello-goodbye mornings. Just wanted to pop in and see what was shaking. I'll be back on later this afternoon. For now: work.

Jack: I read a column some time ago written by a physician who was of the opinion that Sen Obama's health ought to be as great a concern as Sen McCain's -- based on his smoking history and the higher incidence of certain health issues in the African-American population.
I do think it's fair, however, for people to worry about mental acuity -- in people of any age. I would just hope that people would be fair in their assessment and not start making cheap jokes based on isolated incidents. After all, Sen Obama has not always been quick witted in situations where he doesn't have a prepared speech, but no one questions his intellectual gifts.

Pogo: I thought I hated my time in Indiana. Couldn't wait to get back "home" ... my second day back I took my daughter with me on a shopping trip .. and suddenly realized I would have to hold her hand during the entire outing, that we were surrounded by people I'd never realized were so loud and rude and where were all the clerks when I needed help? I actually had to run out of the store and sit in my car for five minutes before I stopped shaking enough to drive.
And years later, when I returned for a visit with my daughter, Indiana felt a great deal more like home than any of the places that I had lived in the interim. With apologies to anyone from Texas, however, I never got that warm fuzzy feeling when I visited my brother in Galveston...always felt like a fish out of water there, although it is a beautiful place.

Sen Obama has not always been quick witted in situations where he doesn't have a prepared speech" maggi

Ain"t that the truth.

lunch

I guess it's all in how you look at it, but when I compare McCain's over 1,000 pages of his medical report to Obama's one thin page, I only think that BO's medical record seem every bit as sketchy as everything else about him. Does it qualify as a health record?

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/05/29/obama-campaign-releases-health-report/

RH: I go back and forth on the hesitations in Sen Obama's lack of quickness in certain situations ... is it that he's searching for the most politic way of saying what he wants to say, is it that he doesn't have a position on the subject but is reluctant to admit it -- or is it an actual lack of quick wittedness (which would not mean he wasn't smart).
That's one of the reasons I reject the comparisons to JFK ... he had such a quick wit. Never in any situation was he at a loss for a response of some kind ...

I personally think that "ageism" will become the new Republican firewall to protect "McCain" from the steady images of him misrepresenting facts, forgetting facts, or just other errors on the campaign trail.

When he continues to look less and less "competent" for the job, the whisper campaign will start out by saying that McCain was treated better by his Vietnamese captors than by the American media, even though the MSM press has a fluffer on call 24/7 for him.

At some point people will wake up and realize that they will have to decide who has the better way to protect social security and turn around the economy. Obama has at his disposal the people who were last able to produce budget surpluses as well as proof that his opponent was against a lot of those measures.

If he can't let people see those facts, he doesn't deserve to win.

For all these "worries" about ageism, you really think a Republican smear campaign that once derailed their current flag bearer by whispering that he had a black child is not going to go after Obama's race? That's it's somehow not going to promote the "otherness" of Barack compared to "good ole white Americans"? That Fox News won't look for any overt sign of "too much blackness" to say Barack is not really an American? Give me a break.

Studies show that the people who are most worried about older candidates are older voters. They know how hard it is to live and wonder if an older candidate can take it. But they still send them to the Presidency and Senate. Let's see if folks can get over their racial bias to put an African American in the White House.

Patsi, He allowed his Mother to go without health insurance at a time when he was making good money. For me, that tells me everything I need to know about a person.

Posted by: Nick | June 9, 2008 11:24 AM

Nick: In all fairness, I don't know that she was uninsured, I believe she might have been underinsured. Even if you have insurance, sometimes those 20% balances after the insurance has paid their 80% can be extremely difficult to pay. I agree with you though, he should focus more on the nightmare that is dealing with insurance companies (endless forms and bureaucracy) and less about the fact that she worried about being able to pay. Love, Kooky.

lizbeth: A lot of younger / youngish men don't bother to have the yearly physical, and only see the doctor when they are ill. I'll bet Sen Obama wouldn't have the medical history he does have had he not decided to run for the Presidency.
On the other hand, career military men all cart around with them a medical records file as thick as your arm. You can't call in sick in the military...you either report for duty or report to sick bay; you can't avoid your shots, your check-ups, etc. so you tend to have a lot thicker medical file than a civilian of the same age.

"Patsi, He allowed his Mother to go without health insurance at a time when he was making good money. For me, that tells me everything I need to know about a person."

Nick,

I was puzzled by his statement in that campaign ad as Senator Obama never made it clear what the result of his late mom's struggle with insurance was.

Did she have insurance? Did she die uninsured?

Even people with PPO accounts struggle with their insurers over cancer care.

I've yet to read anything from him or his campaign or his family which answered those questions. I don't assume anything here as this is a political campaign which is its own manipulative set of contexts.

However, as he brought it up and left it in (and on) the air...

An answer is mandatory.

Has anyone considered with McCain and his stay at the Hanoi Hilton that if he is not now suffering from PTSD, he could at any time start to show symptoms if he was under stress for a period of time. I am not accusing him of it just wondering if it might become an issue.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

As to Health Care, Health insurance ... what you will. Even if all Americans were covered by health insurance, it would not solve all the problems -- not by a long shot. What to do about incompetent physicians who are not disciplined by local governing boards? What to do about HMOs who are all about cost containment? What to do about people who go to see the doctor for the merest hangnail?

Speaking as someone who worked on the other side of the issue for many years, I feel strongly that the idea of no-pay or low-pay health care has led to an epidemic of hypochondriacs. I am in favor of a system wherein even the indigent would have to pay a deductible for costs up to a certain dollar value ... so that people with ordinary colds would be incentivized to just stay home and drink juice rather than crowd the Urgent Care facilities. People on Medicaid could perhaps be given a check at the beginning of the year equal to the amount of their deductible and advised to save the money against possible future costs.

Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbpWonUzlrc

Dooty: If there were such symptoms, they would have been detailed in his medical records. And I'm pretty certain that one of the many reporters who pored through those records would have found it. As to whether there is a history of Vietnam POWs suddenly going bonkers at the age of 70 ... we have not yet heard any reports of same.

Maggi, you are certainly right about young men not going to the doctor.

pogo, I think I was referring to redneck in the expansive meaning you described. That's what it means, right?

And having lived on the borders of western N. C. for a while, I love the people. At first an outsider, once they checked me out for a short while, I guess they decided I was okay and it is a fact that you could not ask for more loyal, honest, giving and wonderful people.

Alicia thanks for your anecdote. After you got in the car and were on a more even footing, how did he impress you?

9/11: Don't take my word for it, but I believe I read that Sen Obama's mother's health insurance problems got resolved. The report did not come from Sen Obama or his campaign but from a Chicago-based reporter.

Your post made me think of the abuse piled on Al Gore for alluding to his sister's death from cancer and the fact that the Gore family continued to grow tobacco for years after that. I do think that candidates of all parties should be careful about how they use their own families in their political statements.

Capability is a valid concern, age is not.

I am not a senior YET, but fast approaching, and I find any comments about McCain's age EXTREMELY annoying. Have you noticed how he hops out of his chair at events -- faster than I can -- I think he's pretty amazing at any age. And like I said before he may need a mini-makeover but that is just in terms of style and what is expected from our male candidates, not because he is "old."

I have a compadre Maggisd that was a solid citizen for 25 or 30 years after Vietnam and then he started getting weird. Crawling on the floor hunting for the enemy (I won't use the word he uses) and now the VA has him on Psyco drugs that are almost like a frontal labadomy (sorry for the spelling). That is why I asked.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

I have heard Mr. Obama a couple of times referring to his mother's cancer and her death. When he speaks about it, he leaves out an important fact. His mother lived in Indonesia most of her life and also died there.

Where that leaves her with respect to health insurance, I'm not sure. I wouldn't think Indonesia would be the place to be if you had cancer. I wonder why he didn't bring her to the United States.

... is it that he's searching for the most politic way of saying what he wants to say, is it that he doesn't have a position on the subject but is reluctant to admit it --maggisd

I think often it's both of those things, plus It's like he "forgets what he thinks" sometimes. . That's why, in the past, he has said to go to his website.

This is all very new to him. He got in a hurry, because "this was his moment" as he's put it, but it seems as though he didn't have time to meld all his positions into place. Between that and watching the polls to see what he needs to be saying and when and where to say it, he sometimes spurts out the wrong thing. Therefore, there's the need to change it or to contradict himself later.

Nick:

This is what Obama said on a campaign stop in Santa Barbara:

It's an anecdote Obama has been recently field testing on the campaign trail. This is how he told the story of his mother's illness during a recent campaign stop in Santa Barbara, Calif.

"I remember my mother. She was 53 years old when she died of ovarian cancer, and you know what she was thinking about in the last months of her life? She wasn’t thinking about getting well. She wasn't thinking about coming to terms with her own mortality. She had been diagnosed just as she was transitioning between jobs. And she wasn’t sure whether insurance was going to cover the medical expenses because they might consider this a preexisting condition. I remember just being heartbroken, seeing her struggle through the paperwork and the medical bills and the insurance forms. So, I have seen what it's like when somebody you love is suffering because of a broken health care system. And it's wrong. It's not who we are as a people."

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/09/obamas_mother_in_new_ad.html

"When he continues to look less and less "competent" for the job, the whisper campaign will start out by saying that McCain was treated better by his Vietnamese captors than by the American media, even though the MSM press has a fluffer on call 24/7 for him"

Wow -- Bear, I think you nailed it. That's the exact comeback they'll use!

I have heard Mr. Obama a couple of times referring to his mother's cancer and her death. When he speaks about it, he leaves out an important fact. His mother lived in Indonesia most of her life and also died there.

Where that leaves her with respect to health insurance, I'm not sure. I wouldn't think Indonesia would be the place to be if you had cancer. I wonder why he didn't bring her to the United States.

Posted by: lizbeth | June 9, 2008 12:28 PM

Liz: His mother died in Hawaii.

http://www.kentucky.com/727/story/421240.html

"...he leaves out an important fact. His mother lived in Indonesia most of her life and also died there... lizbeth
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99595

Lizbeth,
I hadn't thought of that.

Doesn't that make it irrelevant in a conversation about Health Care in America?

Does it matter? BO isn't going to do well in the states Senator Clinton could've carried. McCain picks a veep who appears presidential (like Romney) and the GOP holds the WH for years to come.

ps - My video pics were MIA, too. Sent a great one of Craig & his folks in Vegas.

Great character reference from Ross Perot.

From earlier linked article on McCain ex-wife.

But Ross Perot, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel – even by the standards of modern politics.

‘McCain is the classic opportunist. He’s always reaching for attention and glory,’ he said.

‘After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona. And the rest is history.’

Maggisd,

can a person that is indigent, with maybe a substance abuse history, adhere to the instructions to save this for health related issues? What if that indigent needs food and not health care at that point? Lots of ways for this idea to go off the tract.

By the way, I have seen a lot of people with no insurance head for the emergency room because they know they can see a doctor there over a sniffle.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Nick: It is my personal feeling that people who receive aid should be given a certain amount of up-front money so that they can have the freedom most of the rest of us do. My former son in law used to chide me for my stash of dollar bills ready to hand out to the homeless, saying that they'd only buy booze or drugs. And my reply was...when I give them the money it's theirs...they can do with it what they will.
The real thrust of my argument is that there is more wrong with health care delivery than can be fixed merely by making certain everyone has insurance. And that I see and have seen problems in the way insurance works that overload the system and work against the delivery of really good health care.

The Final Months
After her diagnosis, Ms. Soetoro spent the last months of her life in Hawaii, near her mother. (Her father had died.) Mr. Obama has recalled talking with her in her hospital bed about her fears of ending up broke.

She died in November 1995, as Mr. Obama was starting his first campaign for public office.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/14/us/politics/14obama.html?ei=5124&en=59b18ce891d6c067&ex=1363233600&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted=all

Ally, did she go back to Hawaii to die, or was she diagnosed there?

dooty: Yours is a classic example, designed to imply that the indigent are, by their very situation, less responsible than anyone else.
My feeling is that people receiving benefits get both too much and too little ... their health care is free, but most physicians won't accept Medicaid so they never get to see a regular doctor. They qualify for food stamps, but many stores won't accept them, and they can never keep their change. We have done everything we can to demean and diminish them and act is if giving them actual money would mean the end of Western civilization as we know it.

Rezdog: I would take with a grain of salt anything Perot said about either McCain or John Kerry. He has never gotten over the fact that both of them signed off on the POW/MIA Commission Report and that both supported normalizing relations with Vietnam.

Course, I would take anything Perot said with a grain of salt in any case

Well, needing a steady hand to walk because he has arthritis wouldn't really hurt McCain's abiltity to govern. We went through all of this with FDR's polio & Reagan's age. It won't go over well if BO & co decide to run with ageism.

...but if McCain does have health issues before the general (real or orchestrated for a stronger candidate), wouldn't that just throw a spanner into the works?

Not that it has any relevance to anything, but I find myself wondering about Sen Obama's relationship with his mother. Was it his choice to return to Hawaii at the age of 10 or hers? Was it a matter of not getting on with his stepfather (as so often happens) or what?

As I said, the question has no real relevance to the campaign, but I have often wondered if there was any sense of desertion and whether that is not why he seems really, really to miss being home with his children.

About ageism, someone said they didn't think questioning McCain's age was "ageism" but I think it was. It worries me because we like to treat older people and the "elderly" with little respect and importance. I remember learning about Nazi Germany in history classes and the elderly were considered a hindrance toward the master plan and many were killed simply because they were not "useful" in the pursuit of Hitler's "vision".

Ally: I stand corrected. I guess she went to Hawaii to die.

After her diagnosis, Ms. Soetoro spent the last months of her life in Hawaii, near her mother. (Her father had died.) Mr. Obama has recalled talking with her in her hospital bed about her fears of ending up broke. She was not ready to die, he has said. Even so, she helped him and Maya “push on with our lives, despite our dread, our denials, our sudden constrictions of the heart.”

She died in November 1995, as Mr. Obama was starting his first campaign for public office. After a memorial service at the University of Hawaii, one friend said, a small group of friends drove to the South Shore in Oahu. With the wind whipping the waves onto the rocks, Mr. Obama and Ms. Soetoro-Ng placed their mother’s ashes in the Pacific, sending them off in the direction of Indonesia.

http://www.zimbio.com/Stanley+Ann+Dunham+Soetoro/articles/4/BARACK+OBAMA+MOTHER+GREAT+ROLE+MODEL
.....

But what about this?

Barack Obama once told press that his mother's death at age 53 was the worst experience of his life.

He said, "The biggest mistake I made was not being at my mother's bedside when she died." He went on to say, "She was in Hawaii in a hospital, and we didn't know how fast it was going to take, and I didn't get there in time."

http://www.zimbio.com/Stanley+Ann+Dunham+Soetoro/articles/2/Obama+s+Mother+s+Death

"60" is "the new 40" only for the purposes of delaying paying social security

Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker | June 9, 2008 7:56 AM

LOL !!! That's really clever !!! thanks for that one.

That's Ok Maggi, I wasn't a big Perot either, but i find McCain's behavior with the transition between wives a little peculiar. After all, Obama geds hammered for his decisions when he was a 35 year old State pol.

I just thought of something that I would like you to consider and comment on.

Craig's post was about ageism and McCain. Would the pressure on McCain be less if he wasn't acting like such a tough guy with regards to Iran and Iraq?

Someone earlier made the comparison to Reagan. Reagan was more comfortable speaking in public and he was engaging an enemy that everyone knew we had to fight. Because of what's happened in the Middle East, I don't doubt that the confusion created by the disastrous management of the war and McCain's continued support of it, will impact the issue.

Interesting article by David Bauder about the way TV covered the "horse race" and the slant of pushing Clinton out of the race. It mentions the Brokaw/Olbermann incident

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hSB_D0aKwZZGIfxKlVbrLuDFNNvgD916ANO00

Nick: You make a good point. How much more effective it would have sounded if he had said that he remembered helping her figure out her insurance coverage and he, too, found it frustrating and complicated.

Hillary Clinton's encouraging her supporters to conclude that most of her campaign's woes stemmed from sexism, when her identity as a woman and former first lady were so integral to her running at all, may have also encouraged a cult of victimhood and identity politics.

Posted by Dog Eye's View

I know it is a done deal, and I accept it. However, my anger over how Hillary Clinton has been treated by the mainstream media and SOME Obama supporters has not subsided. (I don't mean you Dog)...

I once again, HIGHLY recommend watching this video. Watch to to the very end, even after the credits, as there is a message on it from Maya Angelou, who Oprah claims was her mentor.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM "MAD AS HELL/BITCH"

Jamie: Interesting article. I noted in particular the comment by John Harris of Politico. A while back he wrote a piece in which he stated that he had found it necessary to frequently reassign those who followed the Obama campaign because they tended to lose their objectivity after a while.

‘My marriage ended because John McCain didn’t want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
Posted by: Rezdog | June 9, 2008 11:48 AM

Wow, the first Mrs. McCain isn't bitter, but John sure treated her like leftover garbage. I mean, paying her health care is something anyone should do. Relationships... why do so many of us stray from the nest????

Has anyone considered with McCain and his stay at the Hanoi Hilton that if he is not now suffering from PTSD, he could at any time start to show symptoms if he was under stress for a period of time. I am not accusing him of it just wondering if it might become an issue.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Posted by: yo soy Horsedooty! | June 9, 2008 12:16 PM

That's rather ridiculous. He has done fine as a U.S. Senator... functionally speaking. That's simply a cheap shot. Don't get me wrong, I am not for McCain, but I don't think he's suffering delusions and all that sort of rot.

EuroTom,
I was just about to post the same YouTube video -- great minds...

The first part was hard to get through fo rme, but it has be seen. If anyone still argues that there was no sexism in this primary, i.e. Anderson Cooper, David Gergen, and all the other talking heads , they just have to see this.

EuroTom: I find the idea of identity politics as a theme introduced by Hillary to be interesting.
It was my observation very early on that Sen Obama very frequently used phrases such as "they said it couldn't be done" or "they don't think we can do it." Although not explicitly referring to race, I could not help wonder what else he might be talking about?
The other thing I often wonder about is whether he would have done so well if he had not had a white mother, an exotic background, and a non-Waspy name?

Time to water (a gardeners Viagra) the lettuce.
Posted by: Nick | June 9, 2008 1:23 PM

Don't od

Obama Ad Starring Racist Preacher

"Obama’s relationship with yet another controversial Chicago minister, the Reverend James Meeks, has received relatively light media coverage ...

But only 4 years ago, Obama recruited Rev. Meeks for a radio advertisement in support of Barack-Obama-for-U.S. Senate. And now it’s surfaced on the national stage:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou1G0BIyu74

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/

The other thing I often wonder about is whether he would have done so well if he had not had a white mother, an exotic background, and a non-Waspy name?

Posted by: maggisd | June 9, 2008 1:24 PM

Interesting maggis, and I just don't know -- I am actually rather surprised that his name didn't stand much in the way. Not much he can do about his name anyway, so he might as well embrace it. I did think he should have stuck with "Barry" however. It's sounds more like "one of the buds". Barack is special, exotic and stands apart. That can play well or not well depending. I only thought about the "Barry" name after it was reported he was having a harder time reaching the common working folks than Hillary.... But his has an interesting name and it shouldn't matter.

Speaking of names I have a friend in Belgium... his name is Osama. Can you imagine how much that sucks now? He goes by "Sam" ... an ex intimate friend's real name is "Yassar"... it shouldn't matter but he calls himself "Danny". That had nothing to do with the discussion I suppose, except to say some people change their names as a defense mechanism, more than any other reason.

With regard to Sen McCain's divorce from his first wife -- I don't know how many of you have served in the military or been married to someone in the Navy. I can tell you as someone who was married to a lifer that, the return after each deployment is difficult. For those who did not have a strong bond to begin with, the difficulties increase...until one day you both wake up and say...who is this stranger I'm living with? I cannot imagine what the feelings would be after a separation of more than five years ... on the part of either.
I know that John McCain has written and spoken of his divorce and has blamed himself entirely and rather forthrightly.
Anyone with any interest in the subject of prominent men who served in Vietnam might want to see if they can find a copy of The Nightingale's Song by Robert Timberg ... it contains the stories of Sen McCain, Sen Webb, Ollie North -- among others. I read it years ago and found it a very good read.

Dexter; 3:50am...06/08/08.........

I will not vote for Obama, he does not represent me or my ideals and isn't that what voting is about???? I know in this day and age that this seems naive, but look at where we are by not voting our conscience...

Your comments are probably spot on regarding Jerusalem. I have no time for - Faith-based - governing bodies, and that's what the middle east is up against, jews against muslims and both have holy places in Jerusalem.

BTW that's what 's quickly happening here, last go round the right wing evangelists hijacked the Republikans, this time it's the Gospel churches Hijacking the left Dems.........

I don’t know how many of you saw Michael Moore’s film SICKO, but after viewing it you could not help but think: the only thing worse than no health insurance is having health insurance.

Republicans rant and rail against government run health insurance implying bureaucrats in Washington will be making your health care decisions and not you and your doctor. Yet they eagerly accept the government run system when it comes to their own health care, the health care of federal employees or the military. Obviously, it’s not because Washington bureaucrats are making medical decisions. It’s because the health plans for federal employees are among the most generous in the USA.

Political candidates like to say “everyone will have health care”, but listen closely. What they are really saying is that everyone will have health insurance. Health insurance is not the same thing as health care.

I’m realistic enough to know we are not going to create a national health plan, but it seems to me it is not too much for Democrats to ask the party nominee to pledge a system with benefits the same as members of Congress. Don’t bother asking McCain or the Republicans. They think the current system dominated by the insurance industry is just fine, thank you.

Fine, that is, for everyone other than themselves.

HD, thanks for the PTSD comment. RH, that is what I was referring to.

lizbeth, having lived in both AL & WV, redneck has somewhat different meanings depending on where you are. The expansive definition is certainly the one people mean when they ue the term here in WV.

About ageism, someone said they didn't think questioning McCain's age was "ageism" but I think it was. It worries me because we like to treat older people and the "elderly" with little respect and importance. EuroTom June 9, 2008 1:05

It becomes ageism when you use it unfairly to win an election. Prejudice is prejudice whenever we judge others as being inferior or less capable than us because of their differences.

Tim: On the subject of health care ... I was far more impressed when Hillary and Newt Gingrich were working together on the idea of overhauling the entire system. It certainly cannot be done overnight and I tend to agree that the facile promise of health care for everyone is bound to set up a President Obama (if that should occur) to be a huge disappointment.
One of the things I liked about Bill Clinton was that -- for whatever reason -- he saw that governing was all about baby steps.

RH: On the other hand, it goes against human nature to expect people not to be drawn to those who are most like themselves.
I personally feel that if the idea of mannerly behavior had not been thrown out the window, we'd all be better off. And I sometimes wonder how a party and a MSM that is so insistent on PC-ness has attracted so many boors.

btw, I don't believe McCain is a PTSD sufferer, but I also don't believe he could have been unaffected by his time at the Hanoi Hilton. Whether that made him better or worse able to deal with the demands of the presidency is outside any expertise I have.

You call it redneck, others call it trailer trash. No matter what it's name, you can find in anywhere.

Posted by: yo soy Horsedooty! | June 9, 2008 12:16 PM

Senor Dooty,

My older brother served in the Air Force during the
late sixties and early seventies including a tour in Vietnam, and he think McCain's short fuse and
emotional outbursts make him unsuitable for
the job of president. He also thinks McCain's time as a POW had ttremenous emotional impact
and while he appreciates his service does not think it
is a point in his favor as a candidate for president.

"Fine, that is, for everyone other than themselves."
Tim, powerful message. True words.

maggs-@ 1:39

It must also really difficult to be left severely disabled with 3 kids, wait for years for new of your husband's life or death, then be dumped for the beautiful only child beer heiress.

While it is nice that McCain accepts total responsibility for ditching his wife, I guess I relate more to the disabled wife left behind.

Bear: Another -ism raises its ugly head. Classism. Speaking as an elderly down-scale female supporter of Hillary Clinton, I imagine a lot of people are really distressed to realize that the vote of a Redneck has the same value as the vote of a Harvard graduate.

I don't believe McCain is a PTSD sufferer, but I also don't believe he could have been unaffected by his time at the Hanoi Hilton. Whether that made him better or worse able to deal with the demands of the presidency is outside any expertise I have.
Posted by: pogo Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 1:52 PM

But we do know how he's dealt with the demands of public office. He's been in our view forever. And I can't think of any reason he won't continue to do just fine. He shares power and works well with others. He's never shown himself to be closed minded or unwilling to listen. A lot of what he's shown is good. And a temper is also a sign of passion.

Maggie,

I agree. I have the song "Type" from Living Colour stuck in my head and they talk about all of the different "isms" that affect our daily lives.

Btw, with regards to your thought about the voting "distress", thankfully that runs both ways.

Just because you support Obama, doesn't mean you have to hate McCain.

The people I have spoken with who have mentioned McCain's age being an issue are my acquaintances who are close to 70 or higher- usually stated with a reference to how they feel old, or tired. I do not hear younger people concerned with this issue- for what its worth my man on the street sample.

Single mom: As someone who went through a similar experience (although I was not disabled), I, too, have a great deal of sympathy for the first Mrs McCain. What I came to realize in my own life was that You cannot force someone to love you when they have ceased to do so, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise.
My general feeling on the subject of marriage and divorce is that none of us really can know about the marriage of another -- nor should we care to.

I don't think the McCain marriage issue is a good one for Democrats.

McCain family: Bridging 2 marriages and 4 decades, a large, close-knit brood
By Jennifer Steinhauer Published: December 27, 2007

Before Senator John McCain steps in front of an audience at a presidential debate, his daughter Meghan makes sure his nose is properly powdered. And from the campaign bus, Meghan blogs about New Hampshire through the prism of politics and fashion ("I helped Dad pick out some swank Timberland boots.")

But Meghan McCain, 23, is one of the stark exceptions among the seven McCain children, who have generally shied away from campaigning.

Among the Republican candidates, John McCain, 71, of Arizona, has the greatest number of children, who span four decades, two marriages, numerous states and a broad swath of the political spectrum. But they are largely absent in a primary battle in which families — and all that their presence implies — are central ornaments.

Yet unlike the absent children of Rudolph Giuliani, who have strained relations with their father, the McCain children speak with endearment of McCain. They have maintained close relations with him in spite of long absences during childhood, a period of intense disappointment — among his older children when McCain remarried — and the breadth of geography and generations.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/27/america/27mccainkids.php

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/06/ageism-is-the-new-sexism.html#comment-99648

Tim, you hit that nail on the head.

Classism. Speaking as an elderly down-scale female supporter of Hillary Clinton, I imagine a lot of people are really distressed to realize that the vote of a Redneck has the same value as the vote of a Harvard graduate.
Posted by: maggisd Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 1:55 PM

Classism is just another excuse for some to feel superior. They find comfort in belittling others.

With regard to Sen McCain's temper ... no less an authority than his mother has said that he always had it and was subject to tantrums as a child. I am led to believe that he has mellowed a great deal with age ...

So, KC, you think the republicans have become the party of families values?

Posted by: Nick | June 9, 2008 1:07 PM

Nick: I know what you mean but I just worry about judging people's relationships with their parents. I know that my own relationship with both my mother and father is very complicated. I haven't been home for 12 years (and you could count on two hands I've been home since I left at 18). On the surface, that would make me seem like a terrible child but there are factors that contribute to this—which are too complex to discuss on a blog but are relevant nonetheless. I know I am wishy washy on this one but...them's my thoughts.

It seems Bill Clinton has a little temper himself. I have never like him better.

I am led to believe that he has mellowed a great deal with age..
Posted by: maggisd Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 2:08 PM

One of the 'good' side afftects of ageing. Another is, contrary to what the younger crowd may think, you are a lot wiser.

** oops, never like him better.

I loved it when he called that Perdum? a slimeball.

RH: The whole thing causes me to laugh ... despite the fact that my education was as extensive as his, the husband of my cousin would greet me every year at the annual family gathering by asking, in the kindest voice possible -- are you still working at the same job? He thought surely that my pink collar job must have been an enduring disappointment to me. I, on the other hand, was proud of my expertise at my little job, pleased to have a job that enabled me to raise my daughter without outside help, and came to realize that a professional position would have left me far less time to spend with my child, far less time to read, visit museums, garden, etc ... and cause me to have to spend too much time with a group of people I never really felt comfortable with.

t seems Bill Clinton has a little temper himself. I have never like him better. Posted by: lizbeth

I do. Sometimes you have to get mad in order to do the right thing.

Pogo
Do I think the goopers have the track on family values?
Not really but I think what happened to the McCain first marriage in not out of sync with what happened to a lot of marriages add his time in a POW camp and it's not like he is Rudee. He's had two marriages and the kids fom both of the marriages (even the ones he adopted that were the kids of his first wife's first marriage) are still in touch with him and like him.
There is plenty to say about McCain that is bad but this is not the area,
I tried to be relatively polite in recounting my brother's opinion but the unvarnished version is my brother thinks he is batshit insane and should not have his hand on any button attached to military action,

a professional position would have left me far less time to spend with my child, far less time to read, visit museums, garden, etc ... and cause me to have to spend too much time with a group of people I never really felt comfortable with.
Posted by: maggisd Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 2:14 PM

Maggisd, You had the courage to make the right decision. Are you sure your cousin's husband was just making small talk? Congratulations on living your life the way you wanted to.

lizbeth: Pres Clinton has a notorious temper. And I believe that the Obama campaign was well aware of this when the invidious comparisons and remarks began. They hoped that Pres Clinton would blow his top.

My ism's bigger than your ism

KC not family values - families values. Just playing on words.

My ism's bigger than your ism
Posted by: TP from CT/NC

Aren't you the guy that hates Bill Clinton?

RH: Oh, I'm quite certain he wasn't just making small talk. You hadda be there. But it's OK ... he's a decent enough guy in other respects.

Posted by: pogo | June 9, 2008 2:21 PM

:))))

Yes!

Size doesn't matter TP... :D

only people with little isms say size doesn't matter.

KC, sorry, I couldn't resist, and I'm having trouble taking anything seriously today. :-))

Oh, I'm quite certain he wasn't just making small talk. You hadda be there.
Posted by: maggisd Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 2:22 PM

Glad you read through my typo.
I figured you had more clues than just that one greeting statement he used. I had to ask though. People never cease to amaze me, telling us how to live our lives.

So here's what it comes down to ... an old guy with a bad temper vs an inexperienced guy who is phlegmatic to the point of nonchalance. Even in personality we are a divided nation, it seems.

"While phlegmatics are generally self-content and kind, their shy personality can often inhibit enthusiasm in others and make themselves lazy and resistant to change. They are very consistent, relaxed, rational, curious, and observant, making them good administrators and diplomats. Like the sanguine personality, the phlegmatic has many friends. However the phlegmatic is more reliable and compassionate; these characteristics typically make the phlegmatic a more dependable friend."

... an old guy with a bad temper vs an inexperienced guy who is phlegmatic to the point of nonchalance.:

You sure make it sound like it's not much of a choice when you put it that way. I hate to admit it, but I agree. But I've made my choice already. McCain. (And I'm not a republican).

"Let's see if folks can get over their racial bias to put an African American in the White House."

Mr. Bye-Bye -- why do people pooh-pooh sexism being damaging to Hillary Clinton and then say that unless Obama is elected this is a racist country? What if people just think he's ill-prepared?

Dooty -- I am in agreement that the PTSD question is valid and problematic.

Maggi, you think they were just pressing his buttons? Now, that makes ME mad. Never was that impressed with Bill until now. What's wrong with getting mad when somebody cuts you off at the knees? Some part of me says he may deserve it, but I would much prefer a real human being with blood in his veins than some "Spiritperson". It is appalling that the Clintons be called racist. What an outrage, and after all the years they have worked for civil rights -- just appalling,

I do believe they have learned something, though. I watch people, and I would say this whole thing has brought them closer together. If not, they should be actors. Also, at the beginning, I heard a lot of is she strong enough to be president. Don't hear that any more!

(Above I made a mistake and tried to correct it and made the very same mistake again. I gave up.)

RH: Me for McCain as well. I pretty much expect Obama to win ... just not with my help.

What the hell is a phlegmatic? Never mind, I'm looking up.

Tom -- I don't think PTSD is a cheap shot -- it's a valid question. He might need to have his doctors address it. On the other hand, MANY Vietnam vets who went through much less than McCain came back with certain levels of PTSD. My ex got very brooding and often negative -- which he hadn't been before. And since he was in military intelligence, he wasn't out there with a bayonet. (He said the MI guys used to say that their motto was: "Don't shoot, I KNOW SECRETS."

Point being, McCain has functioned all these years so if he does still have some problems about those years (as I'm sure he must) he must be handling it. But I do think it's a valid question.

lizbeth: I do think they were trying to push his buttons. Not just the accusations of racism from various surrogates, but the very deliberate way in which he dismissed Clinton as being in the same category as Nixon during the Reno editorial board. One can tell from the lack of hesitation that he knew in advance what he wanted to say.

Patsi: I am pretty certain that, if there had been any problems with PTSD that it would have been noted in his voluminous medical records. The reporters that pored over those records found no such references. Those POWs were followed very closely for many years in a way that other veterans were not ... and probably should have been.

They knew that making your opponent mad causes them to make mistakes. So they accomplished a couple of goals. Made Bill mad, while at the same time demeaning their competition.

RH, funny thing, instead of demeaning him in my eyes, I like him more.

McCain undoubtedly had some effects because of his imprisonment and torchure. But that doesn't mean he hasn't dealt with them. PTSD is treatable.

The article on McCain's family has the same discussion going on a lot of blogs

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/9/114830/0371

comments are very similar to ones here.

Interesting article:

Grumbling Clinton supporters make Democrats nervous - CNN

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Sen. John McCain's campaign reaches out to Sen. Hillary Clinton's supporters
Some Clinton voters say they'll pick McCain over Sen. Barack Obama
Clinton backers express support for McCain on her Web site
Obama advisers say they think Democrats will unite around senator from Illinois

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/09/clinton.supporters/index.html

My take on this was that the DNC felt they could basically do what they wanted figuring that Clinton supporters had no where else to go, in other words, voting for the Republican is against their own interests. But it seems that for many Clinton supporters the sexism and misogyny that was left unchecked by the DNC and promoted by people in the media, has angered many supporters to the point that they will no longer be taken for granted.

I understand, but I won't vote for McCain. I think Donna Brazille and Howard Dean should be given their walking papers... but that's just my opinion. I am still very unsettled how to vote, except I won't vote Repug... sorry.

RH, funny thing, instead of demeaning him in my eyes, I like him more. Posted by: lizbeth

I usually have to laugh when I read your posts. You think like me, or maybe I should say, I like the way you think.

From my own observation, Sen McCain is one of the more emotionally stable Vietnam POWs that I've seen or met. I will judge his character by what his fellow POWs have to say about him.

After what he has been through, why should he suffer fools gracefully or willingly?

His marriages are none of our business.

His physical discomfort is obvious. He struggles through it with the help of his wife. Tell me there's something wrong with that. Then tell my wife and kids the same thing because they take care of my miserable ass.

maggi -- My daughter agrees with you about the employment situation. She spent ten years as an A&R manager in the music business, and finally left to have her baby and stay home a while. When she goes back to work, she tells me that she wants a 9 to 5 job that she doesn't have to eat, breathe and live every minute of the day. Her husband keeps asking her if she won't miss the career, and she says "been there, done that."

Also, she was an art major -- and loves designing children's clothes, quilting, jewelry making -- all sorts of things that she wants to be able to do instead of going out to listen to band showcases.

Gotta go ... things to do.

One can tell from the lack of hesitation that he knew in advance what he wanted to say maggisd

Of course! Someone else even briefed him on it. Never much spontaneity there.

Of course PTSD is a valid area of concern re: McCain. And whether any of us believe he does or does not exhibit its symptoms, whether he has it or some of its symptoms and whether that would affect him as president will be discussed ad nausem.

RH, I've met a few people who think like I do, I like you already. (smile)

But that's why they can organize all the focus groups they want to, they can break us all down in demographics, they can have umpt-teen million political analysts and commentators, but I say the American people are too wierd to be categorized. That's why so many times the all-knowing media wonders "what happened?" as the votes come in.

Craig,

Are you creating a Trail Mix group on Facebook?

ET said snarkyly, "That's rather ridiculous. He has done fine as a U.S. Senator... functionally speaking. That's simply a cheap shot. Don't get me wrong, I am not for McCain, but I don't think he's suffering delusions and all that sort of rot."

Geeze, I had no idea ET was also an expert in PTSD. Tell us Tom, what else do you know about that has been hidden?

ET = EX Senator Frist with his diagnostic abilities from TV and Tom from Europe.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

my point to PTSD is that it does not always show up immediately after some traumatic event in ones life. It can manifest itself much later with little or no reason. That McCain has not shown any signs at this point doesn't mean it won't. I am also not sure that there are tests to determine who and who won't get PTSD.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Horsedooty, I know without even meeting you that your nickname fits you perfectly...

Thank you

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Point being, McCain has functioned all these years so if he does still have some problems about those years (as I'm sure he must) he must be handling it. But I do think it's a valid question.

Posted by: Patsi | June 9, 2008 2:40 PM

Thank you Patsi.. .that was my point, perhaps not eloquently stated. What was alluded to was that he would fold under pressure if he became President, not explicitly but implicitly. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the guy at all, but if he has functioned all these years, I don't see how this would be an issue in the Presidential campaign. Except, of course, perhaps to raise the issue of post-traumatic stress syndrome and how it has to be dealt with and given more resources for treatments and long-term care.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dooty

curious nickname

McCain's view on the constitutionality of unconstitutional wiretapping is evolving to mirror Bush's expansive view.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/06/us/politics/06mccain.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

It's one more reason not to vote for him.

Pogo I agree... I am sure not voting for him....

Damn...another busy thread. We're already a third of the way to the 1,000-comment mark...with 14 more hours to go.
Keep the wisdom flowing!

btw, according to the nation's Center for PTSD or whatever it's called, about 30% of VN vets suffered from PTSD. Was he one of the 30% or one of the 70%? I do not know, but I do care. I figure there will be a MTP or Dateline or whatever the hell else show devoted to the subject within the month.

HD, I've always loved the moniker. Best one on the web IMO. :-))

ET, I certainly hope not.

Thank you

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Is someone (here) actively advocating that another person vote for Sen McCain?

So James Johnson is helping yet another Dem nominee select his VP. The worst I would have thought prior to today was it's kind of dumb to choose the Bob Shrum of assembling GE teams for the Dems.

BUT...

Turns out Johnson is VERY tight with Angelo Mozelo of Countrywide -- so tight he received $7 million in loans at a very "special rate" from the company. And he has never rebuked Mozelo or returned the loan.

So here is what Obama said about Countrywide in March:

"Some of you have heard of a company called Countrywide Financial. Countrywide Financial was one of the institutions that was pumping up the subprime lending market and inducing people to take out these subprime loans ...

"These are the folks who are responsible for infecting the economy and helping to create a home foreclosure crisis. Two million people are at risk of losing their homes ... [but] the two people in charge of the company got $19 million bonuses. So they get a $19 million bonus while people are at risk of losing their home. What's wrong with this picture?"

Not a "stroke of genius", I'm afraid.

Craig's experience with Karl Rove.. I was sure surprised to find him referenced in an article about Bush firing Rove.

http://www.examiner.com/blogs-73-Yeas_and_Nays~y2008m6d9-Bush-confronted-Roves-sins-in-church

Hey all
Off topic but anybody out there who remembers Donna Summer(Bad Girls,Last Dance) she has a new Cd out (CRAYONS)first one in 17yrs.Really Good!!!

Dooty, no problem. You need only to thank me once.

Ok since we are chatting about Donna Summer, I think one of her best (NON-HIT) singles is "Dinner With Gershwin"...

actually ET I was not responding to you. It was Pogo whom I was responding to when he said,
"HD, I've always loved the moniker. Best one on the web IMO. :-))"

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

hey I think McCains age is a fair question in the voters minds only,not the media.Wishful Thinking.I don't support McCain but fair is fair.

E T
Oh man your Good.Love DWG.Always wondered why it wasn't a huge hit?I have everything Donna!! My Fav. song of hers is actually religous in nature and its called "Forgive me" it helped me through some troubled times.Can you believe The first Lady Of Love is turning 60 this year!!

More reason to vote against McCain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/09/gop-obstruction-has-shatt_n_105671.html

"The GOP's current standard-bearer, John McCain, has been in the midst of several of these efforts. He voted against invoking cloture - i.e. ending debate - on a bill that would have raised the minimum wage (though voted for cloture an alternate, more cautious measure). He also held up blockage of an amendment that would have standardized the dwell time of troops serving in Iraq; and legislation that would have restored habeas corpus rights to enemy combatants under U.S. detention. On the whole, however, he, like Obama, has been more absent than active in recent Senate affairs, having missed more than 350 votes (60.5%) during the current Congress"

More of the same.

E T
You got Gay Gene love it.Laughing

I am about to go to bed.. it's been a long day and I am worn out and a bit cranky. Learning about how to sell Lotto tickets for 7 hours today with the lessons totally in DUTCH really wracked my brain.

Good night to my friends...

thank you ET for your superior wit and insight. I bow to this wisdom.

If you want to argue over my nic name you will be arguing by yourself. You are starting to creep me out.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

tony, I think that was bad.

Holy cow! Gay gene? WTF?

HD, you creeped me out from the first time I had an exchange with you... You are in your 60s, I am in my late 40s.. time to stop this "bull dooty"

Petty Peggy strikes again. Ms Noonan whose publicly parades her religious faith once more viciously attacks another human being.

http://www.peggynoonan.com/main.php

Pogo,

Any time someone votes against a bill, it's only fair that they be asked why. So many of these things have so much baggage attached to them that they bear little resemblance to the original title.

Jamie
Thats the thing about Peggy N and others that make my blood boil saying how religous they are and putting so much HATE in the world and she leads the pack.Why can't she just go away?

yet another illogical post from the goof ball in Belgium, "You are in your 60s, I am in my late 40s.. time to stop this "bull dooty""

wtf does this have to do with anything. I don't care how old you are or that we have a difference in ages. You are a vindictive little boy that stamps his feet when he is not getting his way.

grow up ET or call home.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Had a little thunderstorm stop by and the temp has dropped 15-deg to a mild 87-deg. Wow.

Pogo before I go to sleep, it just occurred to me that while I said I won't vote for McCain, I also am unsettled about WHOM I am voting for. I think you knew that already... the "throwing the vote away" argument weighs on me and I give it a lot of thought. The "fck em, my vote isn't for sale" argument (emotional and yet real) pushes me to write in Hillary and toss the Dems to the wolves AND this with me being a lifelong Democrat. I am surprised that I am unable to say "sure I'm voting Obama, but I can't... I know ALL the arguments: Supreme Court, war in Iraq, human and civil rights.. et al, and still I am in relative limbo. I find it strange...

Horsedooty you JACKASS, you got under my skin one time and it will not happen again. As far as I am concerned you can stand on a cliff and jump...

and I apologise for that comment to the rest of the trailblazers..

"In his 1996 memoir, "Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance," Obama wrote candidly about his high school-era drug use: "Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though."

I just ran across this ABC news report of December, 2007, where Mr. Bill Shaheen resigned from the Clinton campaign for making this statement:

Shaheen said Obama having been so open -- as opposed to then-Gov. George W. Bush, who refused to detail his past drug use during his 2000 presidential campaign -- will "open the door to further queries on the matter".

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3992371&page=1

.....

I don't remember this, I guess I wasn't paying attention at the time, but this is beyond ridiculous that someone would have to resign the campaign for bringing up Obama's prior drug use. I think we should bring it up, it could matter as or more than McCain's age -- no hesitation about bringing that up.

With all those screaming preachers that have shown up on the scene as his Top Three spiritual advisors, and he wiggles his way out of it, calls every question "just a distraction". This double standard and whining on the part of the Obama campaign is the way he won, I do believe. Nobody could touch Precious, no, no, you will be gone in a flash if you do, while all the while they were behind the scenes stirring up charges of racism against the Clintons.

ET it should be horse's ass. :)) (mostly literal translation. :))

Is your precinct in Washington? Is there any doubt which way the state is going to vote? Here, in SC, the dems are saying they're going to win; I think that's a long shot. In either case, it's certainly not worth getting wound up over it this far away from the election.

PoU
Rev.W is a lighting rod for conservatives....Whats new about Hillary in the last few years? 18 million voters thats what.Screw the conservatives

Hi Flatus, and that moniker fits too...

I vote in Washington state. Some people say it could be very close there, so I don't know... I want to vote for Hillary... even if it means writing her in. The rub is my desire versus my worries of the Republicans still in the White House. Although I am living in Belgium, my roots are in Minnesota and later in Washington state and I certainly care about what happens..

Well, stupid or not, that's exactly the way I feel about it. Why is Obama treated with kid gloves. It is wearing mighty thin with me.

And Peggy Noonan -- I couldn't even read the entire article. Let's not give up the B word yet, because she is one.

lizbeth,

his prior drug use has nothing to do with his current abilities to govern the country. mccain's age is a totally different matter. it's an important issue that should be on the table for discussion because his old age very well might affect his capacity to be president. after all, you need to be 35 to be president, which means that age is a serious matter when talking about being commander in chief.

nice talk do you kiss your mother with that mouth

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Thing is lizbeth, I think drug use in the past is no big deal, especially if he is reformed. It seems to me he could be a great voice speaking out why it isn't a good thing to do.

Here is a great anti-marijuana public service announcement :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPtYLV5Il1s

Flatus would know all about asses since he is all about Farts.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

I don't know horse, do you kiss your wife with yours?

boo hoo hoo, Flatus makes a comment that pisses Mr. Horses A** off. Poor you !!

lizbeth
thankyou as I read the article I uttered the B word to myself!!! You made me laugh with lets not give up the B word yet.....So Funny

Doots, you have to remember I'm Justin Ohlfahrt's grandson.

I didn't say it was a big deal. I said it should be looked at and discussed and it was ridiculous for someone to have to resign a campaign for bringing it up.

ET, my comment wasn't intended to tick Doots off, it was to lighten things up.

bringing up Obama's prior drug use. I think we should bring it up, it could matter as or more than McCain's age"

Why should Obama's drug use be off limits? lizbeth, your statement makes a lot of sense. This is a whole new game starting now. I hope the whole truth comes out.

I know Flatus... it wasn't lost on me...

so now I add a bit of levity...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

flatus, I agree - McCain should explain his votes. But voting against cloture is not the same as voting against the bill. It is a filibuster, and its effect is to keep from voting on a bill. Our crack press doing its job again.

btw, where can I get one of those thunderstorms? I need the relief.

liz, Shaheen had to resign because the Obama camp painted the reference to cocaine that he made as a racial one, conflating blow and crack - you know, like the republicans do. It was not a racial comment - but it was the first injection of race as a weapon into the campaign that I was aware of - and it was not by the Clinton camp. And it was not the last time. But as they say, that's water over the dam.

lizbeth:

But it isn't ridiculous. It's dirty campaigning, similar to Mark Penn's now-infamous Hardball appearance when he said, "I think we have made clear that the -- the issue related to cocaine use is not something that the campaign was in any way raising."

I certainly can't discuss drugs because I don't know the difference between blow and smack.

But as a voter, maybe I'm wondering, what is the effect, if any, on somebody? Maybe I'm wondering, is that why he goes, uh, uh, and, uh, uh when he's speaking? So why wouldn't I be entitled to discuss it?

anonymous:

I know, I should simply ignore your asinine comments, and it probably grants you too much legitimacy to actually respond to your post, but why do you care about Obama's drug use? More importantly, how does prior drug use relate to his qualifications to be president? Finally, what do you mean by the "whole truth?"

Shaheen had to resign because the Obama camp painted the reference to cocaine that he made as a racial one, conflating blow and crack - you know, like the republicans do. It was not a racial comment - but it was the first injection of race as a weapon into the campaign that I was aware of - and it was not by the Clinton camp. And it was not the last time. But as they say, that's water over the dam.

Posted by: pogo | June 9, 2008 4:47 PM

Agreed Pogo, but doesn't it make it then harder to vote for Mr. Obama given all the crap over the specious charges of "racial code" because drug use was raised? I never cared about his past in that regard, but it did burn me that it was charged that the reason it was brought it was "racism"...

Maybe I'm wondering, is that why he goes, uh, uh, and, uh, uh when he's speaking?

Now, when he does that, he sounds like he's smoking weed.

I certainly can't discuss drugs because I don't know the difference between blow and smack.

But as a voter, maybe I'm wondering, what is the effect, if any, on somebody? Maybe I'm wondering, is that why he goes, uh, uh, and, uh, uh when he's speaking? So why wouldn't I be entitled to discuss it?

Posted by: lizbeth

If you have no idea what you're talking about then shut up. This is about the most ignorant, foolish post I've seen in a while.

I know Al Gore smoked pot when he was younger. Is that why he likes the color green so much?

Jesus Christ!

Did you all read that Laura Bush gave sort of a back handed defense of Michelle Obama comment on being proud of her country?

Why is the mere mention of Obama's drug use, which he himself wrote about, not an appropriate topic for discussion. Why so defensive?

I guess you know there is much out there on the internet that is not discussed here, allegations of more recent drug use.

But as a voter, maybe I'm wondering, what is the effect, if any, on somebody? Maybe I'm wondering, is that why he goes, uh, uh, and, uh, uh when he's speaking? So why wouldn't I be entitled to discuss it?

Posted by: lizbeth Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 4:51 PM

Perhaps it's he's following that old maxim: "Think twice before speaking once."

Same reason some people pepper their sentences with "you know" or "my friends."

Dave's not here -

and neither am I - so long.

And what we think is important don' mean nuttin'. The voters and the press will figure out what's important.

PU I may be speaking for lizbeth when I say this, but I don't know. Good quote to you anyway.

If at any time I've given you the impression that I'm your friend, I apologize.

Dan Akroyd in "Chuck and Larry"

I don't think it's fair to tell her to shut up, sorry PoU

lizbeth: I think I've lost more brain cells today reading your idiotic posts then if I had smoked an entire bag of weed this afternoon.

Relationships... why do so many of us stray from the nest????
--EuroTom

IMHO, because affairs represent fantasy!! No bills, no kids, no housework, no responsibilities, etc... Just fun and sex!!

I always tell my husband, "If you want to have an affair, come and tell me...why should she only get to know you through secret lunches/dinners and wild sex in glam hotels??

I think she should have the thrill of experiencing the "real you"...so we will pack up your stinky cigars, your dirty laundry, your breathing machine, your golf clubs, etc(you know all the "fun" stuff)...and you can go spend some "real" time with her...then you can call me when she wants me to come get you!!! LOLOLOL!!!

Cafferty is now calling for "grumbling Clinton voters" to go for Obama. We should just be good little girls now. He is a major league a-hole. I liked him better when I was in NYC and he was an alcoholic.

Linda ... LOL ... I got one of those damned breathing machines. And even though I've lost 40 some pounds, I still need it... LOL... and ewwww on stinky cigars. Oh and I like your picture !!!! Classy

Just another example of the bullying that goes on when anyone wants to discuss Obama as you would any other candidate for president.

You can say that again.

Why is the mere mention of Obama's drug use, which he himself wrote about, not an appropriate topic for discussion.

Why so defensive?

Luckily it's not working anymore.

it's called grasping at straws.
and you're called an asshole

OUCH! my head just hit my computer screen! what a way to wake up xoxoxo joking... really now I am gone...

and one of my favourite songs when I was a kid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3iDFmHT6_o

lizbeth:

You can discuss it, as long as you don't legitimate it as something actually relevant to the election. For all I care, you can discuss his choice of beverages, his snazzy sneakers, or what kind of music he listens to. Discuss whatever you want.

What I was responding to was your own claim that you know nothing of what you speak of when it comes to drug use and its effects on people. So if you know nothing, lizbeth, then don't waste our time with your foolish speculations. At best, you look like a naive quack, and at worst, you read like a Rush Limbaugh listener.

Funny, there was no argument, only discussion, before you all came out of the woodwork to call me stupid and dumb.

That's there idea of a conversation.

So if you know nothing, lizbeth, then don't waste our time with your foolish speculations. At best, you look like a naive quack, and at worst, you read like a Rush Limbaugh listener.

Bully!

Don't listen lizbeth.

anonymous-you are hot today!

PofU seems to be another representative of those would-be erudite thin-skinned pinheads who lay broad and clamorous claims to "not suffer fools gladly".....he seems to think he can enhance the perception of his mostly self-vaunted intelligence by calling someone, anyone, an idiot.........

piffle, i say.

why do the discussions get more interesting just as I have to sleep ??? :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zu_bLSsMs I am inspired...

Sturgeone to the rescue.
Chivalry lives.
Thanks sturgeone

I don't think having Rudy defending your moral position wins you anything

sturgeone: I'm not trying to post up my intelligence here. I don't claim to be any smarter than anyone else on this board. However, when you see something that's blatantly stupid - such as Lizbeth's original question about Obama's style of speaking - there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

Well, I just brought out a couple of Obama's finest, didn't I?

However, when you see something that's blatantly stupid - such as Lizbeth's original question about Obama's style of speaking - there's nothing wrong with pointing it out.

No problem. PU You are blatantly stupid and rude.

anonymous-you are hot today!
Posted by: Jenn

I can tell you for a fact, there's more than one anonymous here.

EuroTom

Well you ever been tested for sleep apnea? Jim had a sleep study done and he actually stopped breathing over 100 times during the night(and that's without me there, holding a pillow on his face...LOLOLOL).

It is so scary and he doesn't always use his machine, because it is uncomfortable...I actually feel bad that he has to use it...8~(

I like your pic, too 8~)....I really enjoy seeing everyone!! What's funny is, when I started to look at the video, I sat back and had my hands clasped over my head....just like you are sitting, in your photo!!!

You guys still buying this farce? In an environment where image is everything, the GOP is putting in THIS GUY to run against Black Jesus? Seems to me like the GOP already conceded.

Well, I just brought out a couple of Obama's finest, didn't I?
Posted by: lizbeth Author Profile Page | June 9, 2008 5:10 PM

Let's hope not. Because if they are, we're in for some real problems.

Champ: Yes. Obama v. Super Ghoul 5000.

Oh yeah I have a mask and everything.. time for another sleep study.. ugh.. Ok really goodnight. :) I like my photo too coz it's sans at least 30 some pounds.

You guys still buying this farce? In an environment where image is everything, the GOP is putting in THIS GUY to run against Black Jesus? Seems to me like the GOP already conceded.
Posted by: champ | June 9, 2008 5:13 PM

You think even that part is a set up?

Jesus Christ! Posted by: Politics of Utopia

What! Is Obama here!

ET
Some day you got to call em as you see them.
I can't say I'm in disagreement. Challenging McCain on PTSD has to be one of the more stupid things I've heard come out of a left wingers brain and that is saying something.
I'm sure it would be a very effective strategy to win Virginia or North Carolina(/sarcasm)

Jack

If not drugs, what does make him say uh, uh, uh when he speaks?

Speaking of ageism....how old is Mr. Burns on The Simpsons? Isn't he getting too old to run a nuclear power plant?

You think even that part is a set up?
Posted by: a | June 9, 2008 5:15 PM

Sure. Obama will make one hell of a puppet. The GOP knows they are going to get slaughtered running on a failed war-platform in the midst of a collapsing domestic economy.

If YOU were a political strategist, and had poll #'s available that said something like 80% of the public thought the Iraq war was a mistake, do you think running in support of that war would get you elected?

How about while our economy gets worse by the day (gas prices, food prices, housing market, unemployment, etc), you nominate a guy who by his own admission doesn't have even the slightest understanding of economics? Good political move or political suicide?

Doesn't pass the smell test.
Doesn't pass the smell test.

Obama Is Too Old and Confused to be President
McCain is too Old and Confused to be President. That’s the message that Obama supporters are trying to put.....
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/19/obama-is-too-old-and-confused-to-be-president/

No Quarter = Huffington Post

neither is credible

IS OBAMA ON DRUGS?

"Obama's Gaffes Start To Pile Up. Sounds like a headline from this week's newspapers, right? Nope, it's from the Chicago Sun-Times over a year ago, March 28, 2007.

A neuroscientist with years of research into drug abuse and brain chemistry tells To The Point that the behavior exhibited by Obama is consistent with the use of either amphetamines or cocaine."

http://www.tothepointnews.com/content/view/3208/2/

Doesn't pass the smell test.
Posted by: champ | June 9, 2008 5:28 PM

Not to mention the rumor out there that there is Republican thinking that this next administration is facing a disaster. What a mess. Some say they would rather forfeit it to a one term Democrat and then go on to take back the Whitehouse in '12.

"neither is credible"

You mean like a couple posters here?

A neuroscientist with years of research into drug abuse and brain chemistry tells To The Point that the behavior exhibited by Obama is consistent with the use of either amphetamines or cocaine."

Proof!

Posted by: a | June 9, 2008 5:38 PM

I mean the posters who use these sites as proof.
Both sites are sources for gossip most of which turns out to be untrue. Huffington Post for all its money and resources is no better. I would not believe one single word about Senator Clinton's campaign from Arianna Huffington and the same for Senator Obama from No Quarter.

Two of today's posts have prompted me to associate with my activity of yesterday -- taking my niece to see the touring production of Jesus Christ Superstar, one of the leads of which is Corey Glover of Living Colour singing the role of Judas Iscariot.. I never had seen the live stage production, but I had instant recall on every lyric of every song . .."do you think you are what they say you are?", keeps running through my head.

Here's the link to the "Whitey" video. Recently uploaded to YouTube. Not a big deal if you ask me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZi6U811hxE

How dare you rick-roll these good people!

champ: I couldn't resist : )

Corey.........Burns has the heart of a 20 yr old......

(he stole it)

The Obamists bitterly complain about people who repeat rumors about their cult leader but are happy to repeat every rumor about McCain and any Clinton.

One of them is so stupid, he doesn't even remember what he posted two minutes ago.

McClellan to testify:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/09/mcclellan-to-testify-befo_n_106128.html

Any time you see a doctor being quoted as diagnosing a patient he has never personally examined, you know one of two things is true:

1. He has been misquoted and mischaracterized.
2. He is a quack and a liar.

A credible doctor would never make such a pronouncement.

Headine should say:

Lazy Ineffectual House Members Preparing to Grandstand for Television Cameras

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/09/mcclellan-to-testify-befo_n_106128.html

Both Bob Beckel and Roger Stone believe there is an MO video. They have good connections, so it probably does exist.

When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it.

‘Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better.

‘This is a guy who makes such a big deal about his character. He has no character. He is a fake. If there was any character in that first marriage, it all belonged to Carol.’

One old friend of the McCains said: ‘Carol always insists she is not bitter, but I think that’s a defence mechanism. She also feels deeply in his debt because in return for her agreement to a divorce, he promised to pay for her medical care for the rest of her life.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html

Read the writing on the wall, Gordo. Obama will be the next president, no matter how much you troll. You should reallocate those uncanny investigative skills towards more productive endeavors.

He has real respect for women, this guy. Apart from the story Sturgeone just posted, there's also the infamous episode where, in front of reporters, he called his wife a c*nt.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25059116/

GREENSBURG, Pa. - Joyce Susick is the type of voter who might carry Barack Obama to the White House — or keep him out. A registered Democrat in a highly competitive state, she is eager to replace George W. Bush, whom she ranks among the worst presidents ever.

There's just one problem.

"I don't think our country is ready for a black president," Susick, who is white, said in an interview in the paint store where she works. "A black man is never going to win Pennsylvania."

Up thread someone said Laura Bush was defending Michelle Obama. Mrs. Bush said she thought Mrs. Obama has misspoken and meant to say "never been MORE proud.:

Mrs. Bush also had this to say:

"Mrs. Bush: History will vindicate her husband

Monday, June 9, 2008"

"A black man is never going to win Pennsylvania."

According to the morons posting here, it is Ed Rendell's fault. All he did was point out the reality and the Obamabots have a fit and claim its Rendell's responsibility to fix it.

Yesterday , Dog said that Obama supporters were interested in building bridges. So , when you said you were selling a bridge , I wondered if it was one that was built by Obama supporters.

Here's a brief , but nice video.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080609/VIDEO02/80609045

Speaking of ageism....how old is Mr. Burns on The Simpsons? Isn't he getting too old to run a nuclear power plant?
Posted by: Corey

I believe he is -- and I now that is ageist, but then Burns must suffer from homophobia, not wanting Smithers to take over.

Smithers is gay???

Corey: LOL : )

Smithers is gay???

Posted by: Corey

Well, he does lust after Burns, doesn't he?

"I always tell my husband, "If you want to have an affair, come and tell me...why should she only get to know you through secret lunches/dinners and wild sex in glam hotels?? "

ROFL, Linda -- I love that!

Next , you'll being say Lenny and Carl are more than just good friends! LOL!

Just got home and haven't yet reviewed the posts so this may be redundant. Anyone see Kirsten Powers article "Female Swinger". She writes

"Polls show around 30 percent of Hillary Clinton's voters saying they'll vote for John McCain. Most will come around - but if only 5 percent of her 18 million voters stray to the GOP side, that could be enough to swing the election."

Looks like Clare Mc Caskell is worried. She should be.

I will carefully evaluate my options but still hoping Hillary will be in it.

And about this age stuff, I think McCain is doing very well considering his age and what he has been through in his life. Being a prisoner of war can take a toll on a person. These campaigns are very tough I am pretty tough and I get tired just thinking about what they have to do everyday.

That was very funny, LushIs...

Nothing like a bit of dirty laundry to kill romance.

Kwame gets booed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpGz7KlO8nE&feature=related

LOL with Patsi....(not that the "do drop inn" is all that "glam"...LOL!!).

and if you track mccain from what his mother called tantrums as a child, to his placing 894 out of 899 in his class at annapolis, to his behavior on leave and his numerous "crazy" crashes (sans burning all save one), to his crass "fly-boy" treatment of his first wife........... then throw in the keating 5 deal and his current documented temperous outbursts.........do you arrive with a picture of someone you want as commander-in-chief? If so, then throw in the facts of his turn-around after SC in 2000 when he took it where it hurts from Rove and company (emotionally unstable) and then came to this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1188858/posts

Sturge

Hard to believe the freepers haven't purged the achieves. The captions under the Huggy Bear picture are worthy of the most left of sites.

and i love that mussolini face the pres is making......

yeah, the comments are worth the price of admission.......lol

senor Pescado,

don't forget McCain also voted 89% of the time with all the Bush proposals along with all you have said up thread.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

that's all anyone needs to defeat mccain.......just throw a copy of that picture in front of every schnook and granny in america.........

Po U

"His whole campaign has been about change, about a new governing strategy for Washington."

No his whole campaign is "saying" it is about change. The campaign itself has been engineered from beginning to end with powerful insiders, machinations, and ward heeler methods. He may be a perfectly wonderful person. His campaign was nothing more than more of the dirty same.

Jamie:

We've got to give him a chance to see if he'll make good on his campaign promises. My point is simply that I don't see how, given his message of change, he could put HRC on the ticket. More than simply being an insider, she represents the legacy of the 90s. Also, when you bring Bill into the equation, you've got a shadow government on your hands. I don't think Obama should have to deal with that.

Good afternoon.

Jamie: Your observations are precisely on point ... as ever. If Sen Obama does as well on changing Washington as he has done on changing the political dialogue, expect a lot of people will be disappointed.

Apparently he is now considering the possibility that some of his tax proposals may have to wait (interview with John Harwood). And, having brought Elizabeth Edwards on board, is he now going to go for mandated coverage?

Jamie: Personally I wouldn't ascribe that to what has been characterized by his friends as minimal or nonexistent drug use ... I have wondered, however, if it is due to wanting to an extreme caution not to say the wrong thing, or perhaps having a learned position that he has to struggle to recall.

P o U

Bringing Sen Clinton on the ticket would be totally about "change". For once there would be a feminine perspective next to the president in a way that has never existed before.

Too many of those opposed to HIllary seem to be that way because they are opposed to Bill. I keep saying they are not siamese twins.

I will grant that Bill's position in relation to the administration would have to be dictated up front, but Sen. Clinton would be a plus from that 50 state strategy, pulling in independents who are basically moderates, and getting back all of the currently pissed off women.

Jamie: While I wholeheartedly agree with you, don't you think that Sen Obama has already signaled that he is not willing to ask Sen Clinton to be his VP pick by once again bringing up the list of donors to the Clinton Library?
I personally cannot see that that is a relevant issue.

Maggie

At the beginning of the campaign with the first debates, I said that he sounded as if he has swallowed his briefing book. As the campaign has progressed he has become surer of his positions and able to articulate them more easily in speeches and in responses to questions.

He still does not seem to have completely "internalized" all the information so that he can answer in different words with confidence (something Sen. Clinton does easily) . As a result you still get the Uh uh ummm mannerisms. Needs more time in front of the practice cameras and reviewing the videos.

Did anyone else see the little piece that Pelosi is "backing" Rahm Emmanuel to take over Obama's seat if Obama wins?
Kicking the competition upstairs and getting someone more comfortable to fill the Congressional seat. She's pretty shrewd.

Posted by: unlikely_burrito | June 9, 2008 10:24 AM
"It's not a pretty scene.
(my mother a young 80-something, made an error driving in the city....a car drove up to her and yelled "F*CK you" and waved the finger jecture towards her......)
If this is youth, I don't want any."

the first thing that popped into my mind while reading this was that scene in Fried Green Tomatoes .. when Kathy Bates waited for that parking spot & those young girls took it .. then she rammed their car out of her way .. lol

Jamie: I read an article about Sen Obama's debate performances that stated he resisted having debate practice sessions (I don't know why), while Hillary always took a day off the campaign trail to have a mock debate session.
Of course, both she and Bill -- and Al Gore are known to be policy wonks. I've not heard or read that Sen Obama is. In fact, I recall the one debate where he talked about losing papers...and I believe he was saying just prior to that that he expected to rely on others to manage the details ... in contrast to Hillary.

a

"the behavior exhibited by Obama is consistent with the use of either amphetamines or cocaine." Proof!

Not proof. Simply speculation by someone who has never met or examined him bases on criteria that frequently have very innocent causes and extrapolating those into 15 seconds of fame.

I have complaints about Sen. Obama, but some quack making a diagnois from a distance is no better than the guys trying to "save" Terry Schiavo.

Maggis: That's soo true ... I've not heard anyone talking about that at all ... there's been alot of time spent by the pundits on what "Bill" has done in the last 7½ years ... where's he get his money .. whose he been seen with ... where has he traveled ... you'd think he was running again, instead of Hillary ..

Jamie: BHO's uh, uh, uh .. it's like he is searching for the words to describe what he's talking about or feeling at that moment .. it drives me crazy when you have someone on TV, who does that the whiole time they are speaking ... I usually mute them ..

I stand by what I said. If you will read carefully, I said it could be relevant. How are we going to know if the mere mention of Mr. Obama's drug use brings out the insults. I'm glad my feelings aren't hurt very easily. But just so you'll know I am not stupid. And what I said is not stupid either. I am not very well versed in drug use. Big difference.

I was also talking in the larger context of the kid glove treatment of Mr. Obama, which is being confirmed here.

Viv: Exactly. Just like the statements about dynasties and the like. Hillary is a Rodham, not a Clinton. And she is neither her husband's clone nor his alter ego. I wonder how many of the male talking heads really believe their wives are their alter ego ... LOL

REZKO: Will he sing?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2562869803_215c946d48_o.jpg

REZKO: Will he sing?
Posted by: GORDO

Like a bird, I hope.

Maggie

It is like Mr. Bumble when someone says the law says that his wife is under his control:

"'If the law supposes that', said Mr. Bumble, 'the law is an ass...'"

tony39: I remember that incident ... described by Willie Brown. What d'you think that was all about, really?

"the behavior exhibited by Obama is consistent with the use of either amphetamines or cocaine." Proof!

Jamie, that was a joke

Jamie: Exactly.

Rezko's not gonna sing if he hopes for a pardon.

lizbeth
Of course his prior drug use is important to some voters just like age is with some voters about McCain. Im with you not the bullys!!! Thankyou for bringing the topic to are attention.

maggisd, but that doesn't keep one from hoping.a

Lovely piece here at Salon.com for Hillary supporters

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/06/08/hillary_concession/print.html

lizbeth,

Obama is a devout Muslim. They prohibit the use of alcohol or drugs.

z: Is that meant to be a joke of some kind?

z,
You've got me laughing hysterically.
Don't you love the alphabet?

One would hope it's a joke.

Weezer time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxRj5uWyngI

roflol

"The million dollar question following Tony Rezko's conviction is whether he will crumble under the pressure of being behind jail bars and agree to talk to the feds.

Rezko faces significant prison time stemming from his recent corruption conviction. Beyond that, he still faces two other criminal cases and his money troubles continue to escalate.

Obama: No pardon for Rezko"

http://blogs.suntimes.com/rezko/

PofU: One never knows whether to set someone straight or to just assume that one is being played for a gullible old fool who will just naturally take the bait.

maggie
I think it was about Sen.Obama not wanting a photo with the pro gay mayor of San Fran.I think he had the future campaign in mind!!! My Opionion

Gordo: Too bad for Rezko. That means he will be deported, in the end.

tony39: Yes, I agree with you ... except that that is a very bizarre thing for a Democrat to do, dontcha think? To be honest, I don't think that even Sen McCain would make such a request.

to just assume that one is being played for a gullible old fool who will just naturally take the bait.
Posted by: maggisd

maggisd, no one would ever mistake you for a fool. No way.
You're the smartest one here.

Sturge - did I read that right? "Family planning=baby killing.............Do you believe that?

EuroTom and Lucious - re apnea.....I saw a news story re a new treatment. It consists of having small plastic tube, size maybe half a toothpick and same diameter, inserted into the area in the back of your throat. It seemed to suggest that there are docs in the SF bay area who do it.

They interviewed some patients who raved about it.They said it was painless having it done also.

I don't think sexism in the minds of voters was what hurt Hillary the most. It was in the minds of the media where we saw most of it, but even that wasn't the big thing.

What hurt her the most was the constant raving about Obama's skills - that and the joke of the delegating of delegates.

As for his skills, I can't stand to hear him talk. Even when he gave that speech at the convention and I was impressed, I was SO glad when he finished cuz I couldn't stand his voice or his speech cadence. You will notice he tends to talk in word-groups: 16n or 17 syllables, pause, another 15 or 16 syllables, pause, etc. Bush does it and it drives me wild, and I now realize that's why I don't like to read Hemingway.

So, RR was muted, Bill was muted at times (cuz I really don't like political speeches - they are so calculated, such definite results intended) and W was for sure muted. Now this joker will be muted, to such an extent that I doubt I will be caught up in the gen elec - maybe I'll just keep reading your posts.

BTW, it's hot as blazes here too. My apt is 90, and for me that is truly hell. Johnny Carson used to say that the inside of his oven was dry heat also, but he wasn't gonna turn it on and sit in it.

I say, dentists and doctors never sterilized their instruments in a freezer - they used boiling temps. Do you know they have found molds thousands of years old still alive ine big ice formations? Just my rant about the unfairness of climate.

Turn to C-Span: Dennis Kucinich is introducing (35) articles of impeachment against Bush.

z
may be he is a backsliding muslim. but then that would make him a Baptist. WTF is up with that can Baptist be Democrat?

Jack ;-P

a

If you want something to be considered a joke, you might try humor.

The only way I can imagine Rezko telling any secrets is in a plea bargain. But there may not be much to tell anyway.

Jamie,
If you go back the original quote, I thought the post from no quarters was the usual ridiculous accusations. So i said Proof!, because I thought everyone would no I was being playful.

Maggie
My thoughts exactly bizarre.I don't know what to think about Sen. Obama and the gay community.I cannot say he is anti-gay though.I just don't know?I don't vote based on my questioning that though my thing is TRUST.If he can convince me to trust him i will vote for him but thats a big if?

maggisd, no one would ever mistake you for a fool. No way.
You're the smartest one here.

And in case anyone's in doubt. This wasn't a joke.
I meant it. Surprises me how so many expect the worst we have to offer.

bettyboo: We could start a discussion group. I do not care for Obama's speaking style, do not like Hemingway and used to fall asleep listening to Pres Clinton give the State of the Union address.

I wonder if Rep Kucinich cuts his own hair.

Flatus: I don't know, but he's a total cutie-pie!

Nick: ARGHHH, lol ... so, just can't listen to people who don't know what their next word is going to be ...

Maggis: OMG, most men would do as BHO did in that piece Nick sent, lol .. they'd be stuttering all over the place, because they'd be angry you even thought that ...

Obama and Rezko

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rDHsHM0laT8&feature=related

Sturge - did I read that right? "Family planning=baby killing.............Do you believe that?

bethy.....i didnt say that......champ said it in response to a post i linked to a page which points out that voting for mccain is about more than roe v wade.......

Jack: Baptists in the Democratic Party? You mean like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter?

Tony: I don't know what to think of Sen Obama on many levels. What I have read causes me to believe that he changes some of his positions quite readily but, at other times, takes a hardline view that seems to be more about him than about reality.
For instance, on the bankruptcy bill, he wouldn't vote to limit interest rates because he was against the bill. Now, both he and Hillary voted against it, but it passed anyway, and it passed with no upward limits on credit card interest rates.

Obama wrote letters of support for deal involving Rezko

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pA-vlOf3mAc&feature=related

A blow to ageism!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080609/sc_livescience/115yearoldwomansbrainintiptopshape

Obama Avoids Answering About Rezko

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rbkhzsTwz_g&feature=related

Viv...lol...thanks for the comment...actually my Mom told me all she could do was laugh! She said it was so obscure and out of line...she just laughed.

Liz, re: Peggy Noonan -- "Let's not give up the B word yet, because she is one."

ROFL, Liz!

Patsi, Liz -- ditto. Peggy Noonan ... so earnest, so breathless, so in love with her own thoughts.

Lynn Sweet

Obama web site has "Thank You Senator Clinton" feature designed to reap information on Clinton backers for Obama
WASHINGTON--The Obama campaign website has new feature: a "thank you" for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) that is also an organizational tool for Obama.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/obama_web_site_has_thank_you_s.html#more

Patsi
Oh your Great.Yes Peggy is one!!!Oh but she is so into god! Pardon me while I laugh and laugh and laugh

Viv: Oh, now they all want us. HA!

Ha! I love Tony! Pal, if you ever come to Music City, let me know and I'll introduce you to some of the cutest guys in town!

"You're assuming too much (or perhaps too little) about what Obama means by change!"

Therein lies the problem. Nobody knows what he means.

Disclosure of Drug Use (and other unlawful activities) is Required

"6. Does he ever still use any illegal drugs, even occassionally?

7. Did Obama fully disclose unlawful activities on appropriate applications as his legal and political careers advanced?

There appear to be at least two high-profile applications wherein Obama should have disclosed prior unlawful activity: the Illinois Bar application and the U.S. State Department security clearance application. There could be more; maybe a professional journalist could check that out?"

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/09/disclosure-of-drug-use-and-other-unlawful-activities-is-required/

"Yeah like Hillary did over the immigrants driver license issue! Great moments in debate history!"

And Obama later gave the same waffle answer she did. You're the one who always brings up that old, tired cliche about the goose and gander.....

Bettyboo: As an English minor, I was required to read quite a bit more Hemingway than I wanted to. In those days Hemingway and Faulkner were de riguer. No Steinberg, no Fitzgerald ... we studied Emily Dickinson but were informed that Edna St Vincent Millay was crap ...
Here's the funny thing ... 25 years later, my daughter, also an English minor, had to read the same stuff that I was forced to read. With some Dom DeLillo thrown in.

Clinton Supporters Voting For John McCain:

CYNTHIA RUCCIA: "We love Hillary Clinton. We are so proud of the job that she has done. We feel very upset with our party. We feel that they have absolutely betrayed us. The amount of sexism that came out during the course of this campaign was completely unacceptable, and we feel that we want to make a statement we're going to support John McCain.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/PressReleases/Read.aspx?guid=a6ad5750-66bb-4577-ac67-1e653e4cc988

GORDO: I don't know what the law is in Illinois; I do know that in most states, and also at the Federal level, minor recreational drug use is not considered a disqualifying factor, so long as the applicant does not lie about it -- since all such forms are signed under penalty of perjury.

lizbeth: So long as I cast my vote for down-ticket Democrats (not that any of them have a chance of winning in my precinct), I will feel that I have done my duty as a Democrat. I can vote for Sen McCain with a clear conscience.

wow this is a tough thread to get into.....

fast moving and a bt nasty

bit

Maggis: MSM started talking about BHO winning us over that same night ... What get me is seeing all these women go on & say it won't be a problem & their wasn't any sexism at all .. they seem to want to "fit in" so badly w/the Boy's that they'll agree with anything that's said ... I scream at them that they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground!! grrr ..
Yes, I am TRYING to stop this bad habit of watching MSM, but it's so hard ..
I've been a news junkie ever since my Dad use to complain about me reading his newspaper befor get got home & was made worse when my ex burned my newspaper, cause I wouldn't watch "The Shining" with him ... he could not get it that I'd rather read a news paper than watch a screy movie ... this same man wne to bed with his hard contact lens in & blamed ME when he woke with them stuck to his eyeballs ... lol

"Patsi,
Do you also have a bible and a gun?"

You bet yer butt. And I've used 'em both.

burrito: A lot of negativity today. Apparently it is easier to trash the person you don't want to see elected than to say anything substantive about the person you do want to see elected.

When I fire a gun I hope it is well worth it. : )

Illinois Bar

"I know from friends and associates that Bar applications are serious business. The one thing they insist on is honesty. If there’s something in your past to disclose, better to disclose it and deal with the consequences than to lie."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/09/disclosure-of-drug-use-and-other-unlawful-activities-is-required/

(This needs to be investigated now - I'm sure the Repubs know.)

That has consistently been the case regarding BHO.....They just always say how he isn't as bad as his opponent.......no matter who the opponent is ...

What is he? Good at not being BAD?

Viv: ROFL ... I'm sorry, that can't have been a pleasant experience for him but it's just so typical.
I haven't stopped watching either ... there are some programs I just can't bring myself to watch (KO comes to mind), but most of the rest of them I dip into from time to time ... I just can't help myself -- I am a political junkie.

I use to have a gun, but that was over 35 years ago when I was pregnant with my son .. my ex worked the night shift & we lived in a bad area of town .. so, he got me this small pearl hand gun in case someone should try to break in .. we didn't have a phone at the time ... Inever used it, but held it alot of nights .. the place we rented came alive after midnight .. alot of fights in the hallways & one night someone was stabbed to death . ... when we got in a bind & had moved to another area, he pawned it ...

burrito: Good at not being BAD! ROFL ... that is absolutely the funniest post of the day.

Patsi
Im laughing so much!!! Fag Hag to Funny!!! Yes you have been vetted by the best !!! Ha for you Patsi

Viv: I had a very similar experience. I, too, laid in bed on more than one night holding a gun in my hand ... lived with my daughter in the country, and heard noises. My ex bought the gun right after the Watts riots (we lived in Compton at the time).
But, I turned the gun over to the sheriff the day after RFK was assassinated. I actually did use it once ... there was a possum in the barn among the kittens. I don't know now how I managed to do it.

Patsi: I am so amused by all the talking heads saying we'll "come around." Maybe in another lifetime. Maybe if Sen Obama apologizes ... but I don't expect that to happen and am not holding my breath.
On one of the programs today someone mentioned that it was Pres Clinton who was really sad and angry ... as if he didn't have every right to be.

Gotta go ... it's trash night.

I like Bill Clinton, he has grown and done many great things....It's nice that he really truly cares about his family, just as much as we do.

I am sure he is disappointed, this primary was a freak of nature (imo)....at least he can condole himself in knowing that.

console

unlikey_burrito: I like Bill Clinton too ... you could see his passion about Hillary & of course, his angry when they'd lie about her .. yes, it would have been nice for him not to get caught by the MSM, but that just made me like him more ..
He was expressing how I FELT every time something was said about her that wasn't true ,... it also upset me when BHO dismissed all the good he did when in office, quoting Reagan & complaring Bill Clinton to Nixon .. made me remember how Bubba kept saying all our problems were because of him whenhe first took office .. hell, they're still saying crap like that ....

Craig,

I didn't know you and the Karl man were such good friends? For details see Huff Post. I usually don't recommend Huff Post anymore. I am semi-boycotting them.

Well gang, myheating pad is calling my back .. we're getting a thunderstorm coming in now & you know how bad rain is for Arthritis ... maybe if it lets up & the pad does it's trick, I can try to get on for a bit later on .....

if not .. night all ...

!:^)

viv

"What get me is seeing all these women go on & say it won't be a problem & their wasn't any sexism at all .. they seem to want to "fit in" so badly w/the Boy's that they'll agree with anything that's said ..."

Sad but true. Every minority group has that element.

Wal-Mart Democrats?

Way back in the primary, Wal-Mart was a bogeyman. Barack Obama, you may hazily recall, even attacked Hillary Clinton for sitting on its board.

So there's quite a lot of grumbling in labor circles today about his bringing on Jason Furman as his chief economic policy advisor, because Furman wrote a key, 2005 defense (.pdf) of Wal-Mart from the left, titled, unironically, "Wal-Mart: A Progressive Success Story."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/WalMart_Democrats.html

Wal-mart sucks

"What get me is seeing all these women go on & say it won't be a problem & their wasn't any sexism at all .. they seem to want to "fit in" so badly w/the Boy's that they'll agree with anything that's said ... Patsi

Yeah, it's disillusioning.
But a lot of them will see it differently when they get a little older.

Thanks for not giving up on this place.

The mean ones are so few.

Obama sucks, too

Wal-mart sucks
Obama sucks, too

Posted by: unlikely_burrito

yes.

: )

: )

Good night.

no, not sour grapes.....I just see too many leftovers in playing field. : )

Seal - Prayer For The Dying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VUP8p7YAeM

an all time favorite : ) enjoy......life carries on

"There patsi goes again, twisting what people say and making up bullshit."

Maybe I can replace Chris Matthews. I'd fit the requirements.

LOL
how many time have the Clintons been declared dead?
Foolish liberals. I would love to be a fly on the wall listening to Obama bitch about the concessions HRC is wringing out of his skinny ass.

Jack

Patsi ....do you feel the "thrill" only then could you replace the man.

Anybody joining P.U.M.A?

Check out this video for details.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/06/09/puma-advocates-speak-out-on-neil-cavutos-fox-news-show/#more-3013

how about this site: http://www.justsaynodeal.com/

""What get me is seeing all these women go on & say it won't be a problem & their wasn't any sexism at all .. they seem to want to "fit in" so badly w/the Boy's that they'll agree with anything that's said ... Patsi"

Actually, I can't take credit for the thought....I just agreed with it. Can't find the original to give proper credit....

thats a funny comic panel, but her tail is still waggin'

"Patsi ....do you feel the "thrill" only then could you replace the man."

Oops....I spoke too soon. I haven't been Raptured yet. I should have known I didn't fit into that crowd when I got kicked out of EST.

The problem isn't that people are against Obama but rather that they dislike him. ( his type, his perceived type , whatever)

That is what he has to overcome.

he's a lot better looking than you too... "

Easy to say for a guy who prefers a guy.

I am hearing lately that ice may be better for back pain than heat.

Oh geez.....my sky is black right now.....does that make me a racist?

roadkill...omg...lol...sorry that was funny

Very few people are fat in NYC compared to the rest of the country. My Daughter says that only the tourists are fat.... and the occasional fat ass celebrity that gets chauffeured everywhere.

lol .....

roadkill isn't a nice description....but it made me laugh....I hope Patsi didn't take it personally.

"but it made me laugh"

Why: )

Jack

I guess it was an unexpected description.....I do not know why it made me laugh...I personally can not even look at road kill....odd reaction. but truthful : )

I do not pretend to be perfect.....I am just who I am...no less, no more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7pRmeT2GH0

lol....lol....no sh*t

Just curious, I never found that style of humor funny and when done on line is almost always the mark of a coward and whendone to my face has always been clueless idiocy. Because I don't let that kind of crap go unchallenged and it is amusing to see the face of someone who thinks they are being clever suddenly realise the stakes have changed. I'm one of those Scot-Irish that Jim Webe is so fond of writing about. Some folks think we are prickly but I like to think we demand a higher level of politeness.

Jack

wow....so what they say is true......anyone can find anyone anymore....information is out there for the taking.

maybe being a "food name" isn't a bad thing

Your words live forever. when involved in casual conversation in this medium or even worse on usenet It is better to create a name to use.

Jack

Well....sometimes demanding more of others then they can give and judging them on that makes you look bad.

"Never back a man into a corner" that's what a true gentleman follows in business and life. Even hear that saying?

I have come to believe it has merit.

And becareful what you say about polka lovers....some of us white trash folks happen to think it's the People's Prozak.

""Never back a man into a corner"

Burrito, say it ain't so....all this time I thought you were a chick.

The actual truth about getting older is that one does diminish, especially in memory and recall. There was a time when I thought doctor's were too young. Now I see the big difference between a doc my age and one my son's age. I don't go to docs my age anymore. Yes it's ageism by the aged here.

There's no doubt that Hillary at 61 is better than McBush at 71. And Obama is better yet at age 47.

That's a broad brush. But all things being equal, health, etc. the older folks get, the less vigorous, the less stamina, and slower we get. I talk with friends who are my contemporaries about this occasionally, and we reminisce about when we could do______ whatever in the old days and not need a nap. This is why Reagan was asleep all the time. We can't fool with Mother Nature. And we're not getting any younger.

Sorry to make the statement, but it's true. And that's just how it is.

I'm happy to report that Scott McClellan's going to testify before John Conyer's House Judiciary Committee next week!! Good! I'm liking Scott better & better, even if he can't add much, at least he's doing it. Also, he's no longer bright red when on TV.

I'm thinking that part of what Obama and Hillary discussed was the muffling of Bill's outbursts. He still needs to STFU, pull himself together and not be a liability to Obama's campaign.

tt

Well Jack, I don't know any of you anymore then the other, and sometimes, as someone new, I just see the raw humor in the whole episode.

Maybe because I am just to old for this group....to take everything so seriously. I do not know....nor do I pretend to know anything about any of you.

For the most part I enjoy the group.....and that means everyone....no one is excluded when I say that......I can leave when I do not like something....it's my choice.

And I am thankful to Craig for hosting all of our "free speech" comments here.

Patsi....lol...even as a "chick" I have never had to back a man in to a corner.

most likely nothing.....I have my own sewer life thank you...

Burrito....I'm not following what you are trying to say. Either you are drunk or I am. And I'm drinking Diet Coke. Would prefer a scotch and tonic now that I think of it.

Burrito

Because I respect you I was truly curious, because all I saw was another episode of bullying
IMO, Bullies have to be confronted, in real life or in a virtual community. . Maybe you have never been the target of a bully but I remember a time or two when I was young when I was the target. Never again, I will take a beating before I let a bully win. I find them totally repugnant.

Jack

While you guys have been talking Craig has a new
thread started--Take care all

I must have been at the wrong table I do not recall any of this stuff......it was all about pushing your chairs in and being quiet....to excused first.

weird to me...that so much is equated to jr/high school.

My children know that those are stepping stones, nothing more...a means to the end.

Patsi -I am not drunk....geez...I don't think what I have written is that difficult to understand....sorry I can't understand what you do not understand , but really....so be it.

Jack,
I have been bullied by the worst, as a matter of fact I have retained counsel because I was recently bullied by our local Law Director......prior to that, when I was a child, yes I was bullied but I chose to ignore it. Which seemed to make it go away fast. Never in an ongoing fashion, more or less the hit and miss type...I was never fearful. I understand that that can be very serious.

On a blog, well, not sure yet what the limits are, or how to control it.

Ha! got you all excited, didn't I? Sorry I inadvertently hit the submit button too soon.

PRIMER LESSON

Look out how you use proud words.
When you let proud words go, it is
not easy to call them back.
They wear long boots, hard boots; they
walk off proud; they can't hear you calling -
Look out how you use proud words.

Carl Sandburg thanks you for your appreciation.

Sorry I sounded so much like a teacher , but I was one and, frankly I just had to step in when I saw mischief brewing because of a lost jealous soul.

you people amaze me. you allow the most low life scumbag to come here to inflict as much scorn and indignity on anyone that will listen, and then even respond to him. it's as though that's why you're here. to feed the worst amongst you. ask yourself why you do it some time. the answer may surprise you.

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