Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

We've certainly seen the many, many flaws in the Dem nominating process. God A'Mighty!

Obama needs to play nice with Florida anyway, probably Michigan too. No way can he write off those states in the fall and expect to win. At this point, I don't see how seating those delegates is going to hurt him.

signs of trouble for Obama...one warning is the size of his defeat in Kentucky....he cannot win the general election and if the democratic party thinks he can ..we lose again.....Clinton can win the big states....it's about time to listen to her

Craig

Question. Is there someone within the party with the same kind of clout as Mr Truman in '52 who could put a stake through the heart of leading candidate in a floor fight?

And for those amongst us who have always wanted a Steinway, don't miss this article from today's Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121140885162712263.html?mod=todays_us_personal_journal

Good morning! Hillary peeps are in the house! Yay! (Okay, I'll knock it off with the exclamation points.)

It seems to me that Sen. Obama would be best served by everything between now and August being as quiet as possible. Seating FL and MI would take that elephant out of the room. As of June 3, they would all be wherever they are in the count.

The press would still treat him as the presumptive nominee and Sen. Clinton really couldn't do all that much more except lobby SDs and make speeches.
The public just needs to get used to the idea that until those first ballots are cast in August, there will be no official outcome, and a period of quiet would reduce the rancour in the two warring factions.

The Dem party created this mess with their weighted delegations and front loading of caucus contests while Sen. Obama took advantage of the rules and Sen. Clinton didn't.. The only thing to fear from waiting that could disturb Sen. Obama would be the possibility of some campaign destroying revelation, but that could happen between now and August anyway.

How about an oral examination between BO & Hil'ry - Whomever can fix (short-term & long-term) the energy issues we have in this country...and that includes details, foresight to how their plan will effect other things and politicians & companies who are willing to go on record with their unwaivering support...gets the nomination.

I'm surprised that the travel & tourism lobby hasn't gone into panic mode. The first domino has fallen & this can't wait until 2009 for a fix.

Flatus.......that was a great story.......thanks...........

Good Morning, Craig, Patsi, Emmy and any other early morning
bloggers I missed,

The main reason Camp Obama doesn't want Florida and Michigan
votes counted is because chances are looking very good that
Hillary will have the popular vote by the end of the primaries, especially if
Michigan and Florida are seated.

Now, how would that look for the Star of the Dem Party, the
chosen one, to be crowned the nominee while Senator Clinton has
the popular vote? (Shades of Bush v Gore are all too haunting).

Frankly, I'm almost hoping Hillary continues to fight as long as she
possibly can, even to the convention floor. Why is everyone so freaked
out if Hillary does fight all summer. Didn't Teddy Kennedy take his fight
to the convention? Was the DNC all over him to drop out? Or is that negative attitude just when a woman is running?

I say to Hillary, in the words of one of my favorite poets:

"Do not go gentle into that good night. . .
Rage, rage, against the dying of the light."

Craig - I must compliment your IT people for the virtual WD40 they used to fix this place. Posts are going through like quicksilver.
ha - quicksilver messenger service

Now that people in the States are arising, it's time for me to hit the sack. Peace.

An interesting article on Obama's rise to power.

"It's not quite eight in the morning and Barack Obama is on the phone screaming at me."

http://www.houston-press.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/full

Jack

I admire strength and wisdom in both candidates, but to see Hillary placing her ambition ahead of the values shared by democrats across the country is tragic. This is not a gender thing, much as the Clinton spin machine would like to make it one - this is simply good people making the best decision they can...for once choosing between two good choices. Look to Al Gore for a model of how to lose heroically. Defeat is not the end if it is done with grace. Sad...sad....

...because an "ambitious" women is threatening.

Run , Al , Run!

Oh wait , we tried that once. Never mind.

"I will consult with Floridians and the voters in Michigan because it's really their voices that are being ignored and their votes that are being discounted, and I'll support whatever the elected officials and the voters in those two states want to do."
Craig

When Hillary says she'll roll up her sleeve's and fight for "the people" , she really means it. Sorry that doesn't make Obama "comfortable". Hillary puts the people before him. He's got the power and she's here to represent those who don't.

Bring on the Convention. Go Hillary!

Perhaps you would like to submit a list of words that are to be banned because in your mind they are too gender-rich to be included in a discussion about your candidate?

good morning gang....

I'm so glad David Cook won AI last night...... he deserved it....
and hey..... at least it's nice to know that the best candidate..... I mean..... contestant actually won....

too bad it doesn't appear to be happening in the Democratic party.....

didn't think it would be possible for me not to want to vote for the Dem nominee..... but as Jamie so eloquently put it the other day..... it has nothing to do with Obama..... it has everything to do with how I feel about the process....

how in the world did the Republicans nominate a candidate so democratically while the Democrats opted for the banana republic method.....

Ambitious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-W4chBR7Uw&feature=related

Craig, I really enjoyed reading your column today (as always). I feel like I benefit so much from your insight. Food for thought. Thank You!

Go Lakers , too!

TP

You aren't "defeated" until the opponent wins. This assumption by the Obama folks that he as "won" and seeing the media go along with the fiction is one of the things aggravating the Clinton faction.

1. He cannot get the requisite number of votes without the SDs anymore than she can.

2. Until FL & MI are settled in some way, the count needed to WIN is not settled.

3. Even if MI & FL were settled, the correct number of votes needed known, and Obama had that required amount of votes pledged, he still would not have WON.

4. There will be no nominee until the votes are actually cast in August in Denver.

Pretending any other conditions exist is just assumption not fact.

Its nice to see that everyone here don't want to disenfranchise the voters of Michigan and Florida, but have no problem disenfranchising the states that Obama won because they were caucuses which don't count popular vote.

The rules say pledge delegates determine the nominee and also I doubt very much if Kentucky will be won by either candidate. It will go republican no matter who the candidate is.

After all McCain has Robertson, Falwell, Hagee and Parsleys Genocidal congregations behind him. You know the End Times crowd.

I'm just happy that people care about Michigan voters. Isn't that what Obama and JE's appearance was about last week?

TP
One thing that makes HRC the superior candidate, She is not Al Gore.
One other thing TP
To deny the fact that the Obama campaign has a major problem with sexism tell me you are a koolaid drinking fool. He and you just don't get it. Until he confronts it and deals with the problem many women are going to set out this election. The primary is mostly over now your candidate has to repare the damage he did to the democratic party. To increase the AA vote he engaged in ruthless racial slander against the Clintons. Then he completely ignored the sexist campaign his surrogates, many very close to the campaign, used against Clinton.
It is his problem , it is his job to fix it

Jack

The main reason Camp Obama doesn't want Florida and Michigan votes counted is because chances are looking very good that Hillary will have the popular vote by the end of the primaries" prof marcia

This article from yesterday laid it out really well-in case you missed it.
Hillary: The Al Gore of 2008?
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjQ4NjU0OGYyMmZkYWNlMTgyYzQxZmRjOGJiNDg2ZDc

Anon
"After all McCain has Robertson, Falwell, Hagee and Parsleys Genocidal congregations behind him"

And Obama has you behind him.

Your point?

Jack

AP

I'm not saying not to count the caucus states. It think the system is undemocratic and rediculous, but those are the rules under which those states operate as run by their state parties. Those delegates were all allocated according to those rules.

Now I strenuously object to the way some districts within a caucus state have voters with more rights than voters within the same state in another district, but that weighting is according to national party rules and can't be changed until later elections. Those delegates were awarded according to the rules.

What can be altered is MI & FL. For a whole variety of reasons, these two states were mishandled by both their state and the national parties. Just because two organizations supposedly in charge of the process messed up is no reason to disenfranchise millions of voters and give them no voice in the selection of their Presidential candidate. This has to be fixed prior to the convention.

Until the condition is corrected, there is no way to know the number of votes required to get the nomination.

this is simply good people making the best decision they can...for once choosing between two good choices. Posted by: TP from CT/NC

TP, the decision was made long before it got to "the people". And, I don't see it as being decided by gender, but that was what they saw as her weak point and took advantage of what they saw as an easy target. Isn't that what politicians do? So for the DNC and others to think this is "just" about feminism, they're not seeing the full picture. They didn't expect us to notice the game was rigged. But people are a lot more aware than they used to be, mainly because they have the information available more readily.

This is about how the how process occurred..

The catch-22 of the US energy problems.

U.S. oil output has steadily fallen as oil fields mature and the government restrict new drilling. There is an estimated 19 billion barrels of oil, and trillions of cubic feet of natural gas under public lands in the US, but they are off limits. World oil production is at 85 million barrels a day, and world consumption is at 87 million barrels a day.

New sources of energy take years to perfect before they are brought online. We use a food grain source to make ethanol, which does nothing but raise the price of all foods. It takes 5 to 10 years to build an oil refinery, and just as many years to build a nuclear power plant, it takes months to years to locate, drill and bring on line a productive oil well. Oil speculators have driven the price of oil up 60%, oil is currently traded world wide using US dollars, the US dollar has fallen in recent years and the oil producing countries are thinking about selling oil in Euros. The US $$$ is trading at 1.579 to the EURO.

There is NO politician running for POTUS that can fix this problem. Many in Congress are tied arm in arm to many of the special interest groups which are the road blocks preventing the US from becoming independent of foreign energy supplies. Maybe when oil tops $185 a barrel, gas hits $8 a gallon, the utility company start to ration out their services, people stop showing up for work because they can't afford to drive to work from the home they bought in the suburbs, which were bought to escape the major cities, maybe when we realize nuclear power is the most economical source of electricity, maybe then we will wake up, but it will be to late then. The US is like a drunk who has passed out on the Titanic just before it hit the iceberg. When the drunk finally is awaken from his drunken stupor by the ice cold water filling his cabin, even he realizes that it is to late to do anything.

America is slowly going down by the bow, and Congress wants to blame everyone from the cook to the captain for this disaster, but won't take any responsibility for the plans they designed and approved.

FD

We could double production and it still wouldn't matter. At best that would be a destructive, short term policy.

Like it or not India and China are creating the largest middle class economies in the world while producing 50 + million new bodies a year, all of whom need food and energy.

We can no longer afford fossil fuels. Until someone in power in US says, STOP and comes up with a really fast way to develop green alternatives that don't exhaust agricultural acreage, mass transit, and products that are not petroleum based we are going to be in a world of economic hurt.

FD

Disagree about nuclear. We are already poisoning our selves with petroleum by products. Adding to the load with nuclear by products that we still do not know how to store or use is not one of great ideas.

Certainly investigation should be done in the field to learn how to deal with this crud, but making it the main fuel alternative at this stage is foolish

It would make more sense to put solar panels on every building in the southwest. Instant removal from the power grid of millions of users.

The rules say pledge delegates determine the nominee"
Posted by: anon-paranoid

Anon. We're not asking that that be changed. Just that all the votes are counted and the delegates are seated. If we want to be fair, let's be fair to all the people, not the people in 48 states. Then "they can determine" (whoever that is) the winner according to "their rules", whatever they may be.

It would make more sense to put solar panels on every building in the southwest. Instant removal from the power grid of millions of users. Jamie

Jamie, why hasn't this happened? Solar panels work. And beyond the initial cost it's free. Are we even moving in this direction (in a big way)??

"This is not a gender thing, much as the Clinton spin machine would like to make it one "

Sorry, TP -- gender is exactly why a bunch of old men have been on television telling her to "get out of the way." Nearly half of the electorate voted for this woman. Why are you afraid for the whole process to play out?

"You know the End Times crowd."

Anon -- YOU are the End Timer around here.

I would like to know if anyone here disputes the deal Edwards, Dodd and Obama made to screw Michigan and Hillary. Pulling out simultaneously hours before the deadline? Really now. Old School Politics which is why Michigan will go Red without Hillary. Same for Florida.

http://stubbornfacts.us/politics/2008_election/and_the_beat_goes_on

http://stubbornfacts.us/politics/2008_election/kentucky

The US is like a drunk who has passed out on the Titanic just before it hit the iceberg. When the drunk finally is awaken from his drunken stupor by the ice cold water filling his cabin, even he realizes that it is to late to do anything." Frydaddy

Fry, why are there so few solutions? Why won't Congress take any responsibility? What's freezing up the system?

Jamie

We know how to safely store nuclear waste. It is all the political hurtles we can't seem to jump.
One is the foolish idea that any storage spot has to be designed to last forever. Most likely there are very valuable resources in those waste that we will exploit in the very near future.

Jack

"Are we even moving in this direction (in a big way)??"

At various times, states and the feds have given home and business owners tax credits for making the investment in solar, but never enough to cover the total cost that can take 10 years to recover. It has always been a private matter rather than public policy (i.e. requiring all new construction to be solar). The same is true for things such as methane recovery from feed lots, offshore wind, wave and saline technologies.

One of the more interesting blogs on sustainable energy is here http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/blue_power_blog

"This work to extend the franchise to all of our citizens is a core mission of the modern Democratic party," Clinton said.

Max, thanks for the link.
It's been rigged since the beginning.

Jack

They have done some wonderful things with ceramics and nuclear waste. The storage now is "safer". It is not "safe". There is the problem of transport from site of creation to site of storage. Certainly, this technology should get consideration and further study, but there are much safer ways to generate the same power without the problems. Why go asking for trouble?

ideas du jour:
1. base airline passenger tickets on weight as that's what determines fuel usage. a set price for anything (individual plus luggage) under 200 lbs and a surcharge for anything over. those of us who are skinny get to take more luggage or a pet. others must pay extra per extra pound.
2. turn animal (including people) shit into fuel. unending renewable energy source. we could then drive poop-mobiles.

FryDaddy, something you might want to read.

http://stubbornfacts.us/botj/the_energy_reality_challenge

1 trillion barrels available in America and that is not even touching the world's largest supplies in Canada.

There is a way to secure nuclear fuel. One reactor design which is melt-down proof and terrorist proof has the conatainment vessel as a tomb for spent fuel. The real danger is the WORLD expanding nuclear with crappy designs (Russian) and the global transport of fuel and waste. Hell, they can't regulate much or enforce laws, so why have faith in regulation?

The biggest fear for nuclear crud? The failure of the world (including Obama) to enforce strong pressure on Iran. Rez can tell you about the new report on the coming proliferation fueled by Iran. There are however, reasons why nuclear is hardly the total answer though solar has a way to go to even match carbon sequestering or cellulosic ethanol made regionally by sources most states already have. And Corn subsidies are foolish. And those SD farmers want help lower their fuel costs....LOL

Sorry Anon, your End of Time crap doesn't cut it. There has never been a President or Party that stands with your view. Talk about fear-mongering. Now 13 nations in the Middle East want to match THEIR fear of Iran. Great.....

Jack,

You might like this website. It covers a great deal of the European scientific research and has all sorts of goodies for curious critters to delve into. : )

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/jrc/index.cfm

Jack -- your 8:22 post was SPOT-ON!

patd

Re poopmobiles. Energy production from animal and human waste has been developed already. There was even a news blurb about it on TV last night in relation to a dairy that got all its energy from the cows.

Not quite suitable for the family car, but certainly usable for sewage treatment plants.

mornin' all.

Off to a quick start, I see. On the energy front, solar is the answer. It's here, it's free, and it will be here for as long as we need it. The oil companies know it, the government knows it, hell, we all know it. And we aren't all that far from having the technologies available to capture, store and distribute it.

The problem is that the scattershot approach being taken - supported by the oil, coal and natural gas industries through their lobbying to prevent rational tax based incentives for development of the technologies - will delay development of the more efficient technologies that will move us away from carbon and uranium based power while promoting stupid stopgap feelgood solutions such as corn ethanol as a result of wrongheaded farm subsidies to corporate food giants, which encourage the increase in food costs we are experiencing. China and India are indeed adding tremendously to the price pressure on oil (and coal), making carbon based energy a good bet for speculation, which in turn drives up its price and the cost of everything that requires fuel to be produced or distributed, and we have little control if any at all over those pressures.

The only logical solution, or so it seems to me, is to develop and implement a national energy plan with a goal of moving x% of our energy production from carbon to solar by x year, supported by tax incentives to encourage development and manufacturing of the technologies necessary to do achieve those goals. Any of the presidential candidates come up with something like this? None that get campaign funds from the energy and corporate food indiustires and their bigwigs - which they all do. I've watched it since Carter's presidency and see it today, and it pisses me off.

There was even a news blurb about it on TV last night in relation to a dairy that got all its energy from the cows."Jamie

Maybe I should make use of my horses.

pogo: With regard to the energy problem, I have long felt that we are all talking past each other. I am as green as anyone I know...I recycle like crazy, never use two appliances at one time, use my car less than twice a week, etc...but we Greenies are fooling ourselves if we think we can do away with oil in the short or medium-term.
I have long believed in (and write my Sen Boxer about this all the time) a grand compromise ... we need to allow and encourage more oil production in the US with the stipulation that oil produced here is refined and used here, while at the same time mandating increased wind, solar, biofuel (but NOT ethanol) AND an immediate push for mass production of hybrid vehicles with means-tested tax credits.
It is my instinct that at least 50% of the population (if not more) would quite happily install solar, buy new energy-efficient appliances as well as hybrid vehicles, but many of us who would do so simply can't afford the initial outlay.

For those who don't regularly read the other CQ articles, this one about McCain/ Obama approach to Vet benefits is interesting

javascript:prOpenPanel(1,1076744);

I said three days ago, that the loss in KY would be the beginning of the end for someone!
I am happy to say I was right.....

Senator Obama is on the verge of collapse, and probably I am the only one seeing it. LMPO :))
Why?

We have to thank the Media for that?
The media?????????
Yes...the media!!!!!

The media counted Hillary Clinton out since her initial loss in Iowa and that has been an healthy 5 months now.
The people are tied of hearing that. They are done with the call for her to quit, because she continues to win by wide margins.
How do they show it? By voting enmass for her..
HRC has nothing to lose anymore. She has seen the bottom and is happy to operate from the bottom.
She pokes, she parties.....

Barrack, has a problem of trying to end this. But he is continuously failing, and the people are getting weary of him......
The weariness will only grow...and keep growing as long as HRC just keeps/stays in the race.
He can end it: By seating Fl and Mi and then making her shut up about that, by trying to steal headlines.
The problem is: She will win the popular vote that way....and the DNC doesn´t want a winner who won in red states, and lost the popular vote to be the nominee...(remember Al Gore)

If he ultimately gets the nomination and subsequently lose the GE (which is in the cards), DNC will once again be to blame.

Poor Howard and Donna..If only they made their fat, unequivalent heads work for just one fuckin second...Tis would have been done and over by now.

Enjoy your day

Greets from very sunny Amsterdam

Jamie

Thanks, marked for later.
As It has been several years since I've gotten in a full blown argument about energy, Most of my bookmarks are gone, located on files from several computers ago.

Something that people don't think about when we get into these discussions is we don't have an energy shortage right now. Natural gas for heating my house this winter was cheaper than it had been the previous winter. Here in Missouri there is plenty of electrical energy.
What is on the minds of most people is energy for personal transportation. I don't think a solar car is in our near future.;-)
With current technology it looks like a hybrd car with a plug into the electrical grid may be a good solution. It would not reduce our energy usage and might increase it. But it would reduce our dependence on oil for transportation.

A fix for our current problem is to let the free markets solve it.
Tax all those huge profits away from the oil companies then return them in the form of tax breaks for investment in exploration and infrastructure.
Right now, with the current tax code there is no incentive to reinvest these hugh profits back into the oil business.

Jack

Patsi--
Agree with your statement that a bunch of old men are telling her to "get out of the way"--or as I heard someone say--"A bunch of old men are telling her to
"sit down and keep quiet!"

Craig: My own opinion is that the wisest solution to the MI/FL problem would be for Senator Obama either to accept the delegations as proposed by the states, or to allow a quick re-vote and accept the outcome. This would certainly silence both the critics and Sen Clinton. And, he would still be ahead in pledged and super delegates.
If he is confident that nothing will happen to change his position as probable nominee, he should not fear this solution. The best that Sen Clinton could do in this situation is to continue to call super delegates (although I'll bet that woudl be counter productive) and go back to the Senate and hope...
I see no reason that such a solution would hamper Sen Obama's desire to campaign in GE mode and, if nothing happens to enable the SDs to switch to HRC en masse (and it would have to be something really disabling for Sen Obama's candidacy), the Convention might actually be something worth paying attention to ... and perhaps we Hillary supporters might be somewhat mollified. Who knows?

Meg

Not unless you have a whole lot of horses who tend to stand in one place and make their deposits into a trough that gets hosed down and sent to a treatment plant.

I've never known horses to be quite that cooperative. : )

Lets try that article about vet benefits again

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=news-000002881306

Meg: Several dairies in So Cal also use their waste for energy ... solves two problems (lingering odor and possible groundwater contamination as well as energy). In addition, we have long used natural gas in our buses and waste collection vehicles. Natural gas is still pretty cheap around here and now that the phony Enron crisis is past, our home energy costs are relatively stable. Wind energy has come online and many businesses are slowly installing solar and feeding their excess into the grid.
But none of this solves the driving problem. I'm with Jack ... plug-in hybrids. HRC proposed a large tax credit toward the purchase of hybrids ... I would go her one better and rather than offering an across the board $10,000.00 per vehicle would weight the size of the credit to the income of the owner. It is really low income people who can't afford to maintain their older vehicles that are in need of help.

Did anyone happen to catch Elizabeth Edwards on Larry King last night? Interesting.

So, for anyone who didn't catch Elizabeth Edwards, she said no she wasn't endorsing Sen Obama and yes she was endorsing Sen Clinton's healthcare plan ... and yes, her husband had consulted with her before endorsing Obama ... that they always consulted each other, but he did his thing and she did her thing. It was quite amusing and interesting.

Borrock = Hare
Clinton = Tortoise

Many a slip between cup and lip

AP: "Democratic officials said Thursday the party's likely nominee has asked former Fannie Mae CEO Jim Johnson to begin vetting potential vice presidential picks. Johnson did the same job for Democratic nominees John Kerry in 2004 and Walter Mondale in 1984."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_VEEPSTAKES?SITE=CONGRA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Craig: Kerry and Mondale? Good grief ... I thought he was turning the page.

"Last night, Barack Obama clinched a majority of pledged delegates excluding Florida and Michigan, as well as under certain Florida/Michigan scenarios. But, in spite of a big win in Oregon and a well-executed speech in Iowa, the milestone did not quite produce the sense of euphoria and closure that his campaign might have been after. The circumstances of the day -- Hillary Clinton's overwhelming margin of victory in Kentucky, the late hour at which Oregon ballot boxes closed, the subdued tone of the evening necessitated by Senator Kennedy's diagnosis, and some relatively effective pushback from the Clinton campaign on the pledged delegate metric -- conspired to prevent that.

Notice the loaded language..."clinched"..."conspired"...he sounds like he actually thinks a majority of pledged delegates means something concrete as opposed to merely psychological. I mean, the Obama talking point was successful to a point; it got covered by traditional media as though it meant something real and even confused NPR's Michelle Norris who conveniently left off the word "pledged" when describing the delegate milestone Obama would reach Tuesday night. Mara Liasson had to correct her.

Now, I'm not saying the milestone is entirely meaningless, all I'm saying is let's call it what it is: a meme pushed out by the Obama camp to influence superdelegates and the media and to manipulate public perception. I can see how psychologically it would have some power, but let's not pretend the Obama campaign wasn't being manipulative; clearly they were hoping hearing "majority" and "delegates" in the same sentence would confuse people into thinking the race had been won and thus make it so. Alas, it was not meant to be, but good try. It's about time they started playing on that playing field."
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/22/63121/4700

Craig: So, wait ... this guy was responsible for vetting Geraldine Ferraro?

Bock Bock Borrock: Although I am not a supporter, I think Sen Obama's going-to-Iowa tactic is pretty smart politics. By now he knows he can count on the media to portray all things Obama in the best possible light ... heck, even C-Span re-broadcasts his rallies at about a 2-1 ratio to Sen Clinton's. All in all, one has to give credit where it is due ... were I running for office, I would hire David Axelrod in a heartbeat.

Barack's rally's are more interesting than Clintons.

Some easy solutions to reduce energy consumption.

Increase grants to non profit CDCs to reduce the energy usage of older homes. This is 4fer, Helps poor home owners, reduces energy usage, Helps CDCs better serve poor nieghborhoods, it is a jobs program for poor neighborhoods.

Give land lords tax breaks for improving the energy efficiency of their properties. In all of my current rental housing I don't pay the util;ity bill the tenant does. I have no real incentive to make them energy efficient.
I know of several properties in the neighborhood where the utility bills are more than the rent. This one lets you help poor renters and the environment.

Jack

Bye Bye / Mr Democrat - You might be right but C-Span is not meant to be interesting, is it?

maggi, moving away from oil is a long term prospect, and many stopgap measures between where we are now and a world that does not rely on oil and gas to produce energy and transport goods will make sense either as temporary or permanent measures along the way. Some of the ones that we are looking at now - ethanol from foodstock and biodeisel (also from foodstock) don't make sense as anything other than short term solutions to help a little - their "carbon neutrality" is nice, but it relies upon the carbon cycle involving the source foods that exists because of food production that is diverted to fuel production. There are other environmental benefits from the use of those fuels when compared to gasoline and deisel, but they are not the dramatic reductionsmany think they are, and when the environmental costs of increased foodstock production to replace the diverted foods are considered, the arguments for their use become fairly weak.

Here's a good place to start reading - but you have to read behind what's written - remember this is from the government.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/fuels/

Note that solar does not even show up in the links.

I am of the opinion that the argument that the time involved in moving away from petroleum based fuels toward solar that is cited as a reason not to pursue solar at the expense of increased drilling and refining is simply wrongheaded. We aren't going to kill the planet in the meantime, and other, less permanent or profound solutions are not precluded by striving toward a more permanent solution. We tend to think in zero sum game terms, which confounds the argument.

For example, in less than 50 years, in the US, we went from the first powered airplane flight to jet aviation. Twenty years later, we put a man into orbit, and less than 10 years later, on the moon. The rail industry became less important. but did not die asa result, and the auto industry flourished along a parallel track with flight. And the first practical transistor was invented 61 years ago. The first computer as we envision them was developed at about the same time - actually 3 years earlier. And while the telegraph hasa become a relic, we still talk on the telephone - everywhere, at all times, incessantly.

We are well beyond the initial levels of technology with respect to the development of solar collection and conversion. Even if it took as long to go from where we are now to the practical use of solar power as it took to move the electronics and aviation industries, it would be as transformative in my opinion as the invention of bakelite (look that one up - it's a faxcinating read even in Wiki), and in a timeframe that my kid would see. The chief impediment to that happening in my opinion is that the private energy industry, energy research funding and energy policy in our government are dominated by a few giants whose existences are mutually exclusive from the development of that competing industry. Hence, little energy seed money to develop the technology is available, no meaningful energy policy is developed and implemented in the form of tax incentives, and we argue about global warming and whether to drill for oil in ANWR and oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico.

"Barack's rally's are more interesting than Clintons."

Of course they are. Appearing between rock concerts and having the media report it as if you were the reason for the crowd certainly helps that perception.

Thanks everyone for giving me so much to mull on today. I'll be busy following links and reading and educating myself. You guys are so smart.

jack, 10-roger that.

Yup, women swooned at Beatles concerts, too.

Pogo,

For example, in less than 50 years, in the world went from three billion to almost seven billion human beings all of whom want energy. Drilling and production to increase supply can not possibly keep up with demand. We need to get people to STOP using as much petroleum based product as possible, and the best way to make that happen is to let the price rise to the stratosphere while paying to encouraging them to conserve, carpool, recycle, buy local in season and use other energy sources..

Anything less, and it is a fools paradise that will eventually come crashing down around our ears. The U.S. needs to lead the way or resign itself to becoming a third world nation if lucky enough to rate that high on the scale of nations.

This is a "we have met the enemy and he is us" point in history.

Hey
bye bye the mr D

so is a KKK Klan rally
But you won't see me there.

We need substance.
Meat /potatos

Your man is cotton candy

Pretty

But each bite is just air.

"oh let me be your candy man
oh let me be your candy man
Let me be your candy man
If I can't be your candy man
I won't be your man at all.
Let me be your candy man
or I won't be your man at all"

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

Maggiesd

"I'm not entirely certain Duncan Hunter has any bases in his District."

He is also fairly high up on the list of Republicans who haven't been caught - YET

McCain should probably leery of the connection.

jamie, great point - China and India are doing their dead level best to facilitate that process.

And yes, with respect to energy we are at that point - Pogo has always been right.

jamie, I meant to say ... and we aren't doing much to impede it.

Pogo: There is no doubt in my mind that the major impediment to development of alternative energy is, was, and has been, the oil industry.
Another problem, IMHO, is the perception -- as you note -- of a single zero-sum solution. We all have our pet notions, our pet ideas, etc.
I feel strongly that corn-based ethanol is a completely wrong-headed solution. And, while I do not favor drilling in ANWR, I really wonder why in the world the natural gas pipeline has never been put through.
Let's face it, except for the NE, we primarily use oil for transportation and for a variety of petroleum-based products for which we already have a lot of alternativs.

I still think that a massive push toward Hybrid vehicles would be as efficient and cost-effective as a massive push toward biofuels...biofuels require refinery capacity, retrofitting of gas stations, blah blah blah ...

And meanwhile let's all stop using plastic bags and chemical fertilizers. Cloth grocery bags and good old fashioned composting and manure ... along with efficient crop rotation.

maggi, we're singing off the same sheet. Hybrids, particularly the self charging electric ones, why not? (But plug-in hybrids like the gov't. suggests contribute to rather than cure the problems).

And because I sailed for a summer on the Chesapeake, I have followed the Potomac River / Chesapeake Bay crab industry relationship over the past 15 or so years, and what people don't know about the effects of fertilizer to replace depleted soils is staggering. And don't even get me started on the commercial chicken industry.

Jamie: Oh, Hunter Sr will never be "caught." He was involved in the House Banking thing, as were one or two other local Republicans. The others resigned in disgrace...he just carried on and said let the voters decide.
I suspect that he was also involved with old Duke's scandal, but that investigation has been effectively shut down with the firing of the local US Attorney.

Pogo

"(But plug-in hybrids like the gov't. suggests contribute to rather than cure the problems). "

A plug in hybrid than eventually developed into an all electric would be good. They need to improve the batteries and the distances without recharging, but right now solar on your roof dedicated to your plug in car and kitchen would be a massive improvement.

All of this comes under the heading of what I mentioned about all governmental programs.

If you want more of something: Pay for it to happen.

If you want less of something: Stop paying for it to happen.

The big problem is deciding in advance exactly what you want to happen so that you know what to pay for in order to get there.

pogo: People just do not realize. And I'm with you on the commercial chicken industry.
I note here that more and more people are bringing their own bags, being careful of what they purchase, etc. It is a real financial struggle to buy local and organic, but we do so wherever possible ... it is a small thing, but without encouragement none of this will take hold and the planet will eventually die.
Not that it has to do with energy, but the other thing we need to do is plant more trees...everywhere and anywhere we can.

Hey Hillary peeps -- Tell DNC to Walk a Mile in Your Shoes -- or you'll vote with your feet! Send those shoes now!
http://www.walkamileinourshoes.org/

And meanwhile let's all stop using plastic bags and chemical fertilizers. Cloth grocery bags and good old fashioned composting and manure ... along with efficient crop rotation.
maggisd

See Jamie, I told you my horses would come in handy

Pogo

Shall we have a major rant fest? How about hormones in food increasing sexualization in younger and younger children. Then there is the whole viral load of chemicals and what it is doing to infants.

The consequences of greed in a consumer driven economy.

Jamie, Pogo: It is my observation that politicians working in this area -- as well as some environmental groups -- are far too impractical. Whenever I listen to hearings I start screaming at the TV .... sure, that's all to the good for the future, but what do we do in the meantime? Can we compromise even a little bit in the short-term?

Jamie: I don't think consumers are the actual problem -- most of them are unaware and far too many of them are financially unable to buy organic.
Food labelling and an aggressive series of PSAs by the dept of Interior might help.

Maggie

That's why we emphasize immediate actions that everyone can take. Government encouragement of these activities and real leadership rather than lip service would be wonderful. In the meantime:

Your Carbon Footprint and environmental actions

http://www.carbonfootprint.com/

There are scads of sites like this one out there with practical actions and "how tos"

How about hormones in food increasing sexualization in younger and younger children" Jamie

Doesn't some of that come from eating too much meat (and milk)which are loaded with hormones. And being overweight-since more fat cells increase hormone production too. Couldn't promoting a healthy diet make a big difference?
At the same time upping the demand for fruits and vegetables-supporting farmers.

"financially unable to buy organic. "

This is something of a myth. It is more expensive to buy organic at the supermarket, but shopping at a farmers' market or joining a buying group that buys locally and distributes to the members is cheaper. Also locally grown spoils less rapidly so you don't have as much wasted food/money.

It is more a matter of time, effort and dedication rather than money.

"perhaps if the trains didn't have to share the track with commuter and passenger trains?)"

Maggie,

Actually you want more passenger rail preferrably high speed. The reaons we don't have it now is because of the switch to freeways in the 1950s. The rails were given over to freight. AMTRAK passenger trains have to give way to freight trains.

Airplanes pour tons more pollutants in the air than rail. We need more tracks and more train travel.

When I was a kid, I would travel from LA to Fresno on the Mojave. It was a wonderful train ride. You can no longer take that trip. There is a train from Fresno to Bakersfield, but then you have to board a bus for the rest of the trip to LA.

Yes, we are winning hearts and minds in Iraq on a daily basis.

"BAIJI, Iraq (Reuters) - A U.S. helicopter airstrike on Wednesday night killed eight civilians, including two children, north of Baghdad, police officials said on Thursday.

Colonel Mudhher al-Qaisi, police chief in the town of Baiji, said the attack was on a group of shepherds in a vehicle in a farming area. Relatives said some of those killed were fleeing on foot after the U.S. military arrived in the area.

"This is a criminal act. It will make the relations between Iraqi citizens and the U.S. forces tense. This will negatively affect security improvements," Qaisi told Reuters."

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0434078820080522

And the yes Generals still lie when questioned by the Congress or Senate.

Don't you just love all the War Mongers and the Imperial Empire we continue to set up around the world?

Do as we tell you too or we will invade your country just like we invaded Iraq.

One day the World will stand up against us and when that day comes remember its your children and grandchildren that will end up paying the price.

Reposted from two blogs ago...

A SURVEY TO ALL PASSIONATE CLINTON SUPPORTERS

OK this is an unofficial Blog survey. Passionate Clinton supporters... Please answer these questions...

Should Barack Obama receive the Democratic Party nomination for President, I will...

(not in any particular order)

1) Do a write-in vote for Hillary Clinton in protest.

2) Will vote for John McCain

3) Will cast my ballot for Mr. Obama

4) Will vote for Mr. Obama IF Hillary Clinton is his running mate.

5) I will vote for a third party candidate in protest

6) To hell with it, I won't vote for anyone.

A secondary list of questions:

1) I am a Democrat

2) I am an Independent

3) I am a Republican but am moved by the stature of Mrs. Clinton and her positions that I plan to vote for her.

4) I view myself as NONE OF THE ABOVE. (feel free to elaborate).

Final question:

The likelihood that the Barack Obama supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters will unite overall out of concern for our country's future and direction is:

Extremely likely

Likely

I can't even predict

Not Likely

Forget it ... this is going to split the party into election day.

Looking forward to Hillary Clinton supporter responses.

Tom

I am now noting who has responded and what I see as a trend. I will report back with this...

Actually, by 2009, 1/4 of NYC buses will be diesel/electric hybrids, replacing (I assume) LNG buses that replaced the old diesel ones - are all the old diesel buses cycled out now? All of those (D/E & LNG) are generally considered green (certainly greener than the ones they replaced), and are a big step in the right direction. Yep, local gov't action needs to proceed alongside the fed, and without fed mandates.

"Barack's rally's are more interesting than Clintons."

Mr. Democrat,

Are you the gentleman behind Mrs. Clinton?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6sQ675Dyn_I

I drive a 10 year old Audi that I bought before any viable hybrids were available. I don't pretend to be a model of individual responsibility, but when I replace in the next couple of years, I likely will get a Honda Accord hybrid if nothing else has come along that is better to fill my transportation needs - it's my current preference of all the hybrids out there. Ford & Chevy's hybrids are a few years behind the Japanese.

Jamie: Oh, I know ... you likely remember the old Red Line in LA. We used to take that down to Long Beach to visit cousins all the time. And there were electric buses that ran off overhead power lines in downtown LA.
I know we need more rail ... my daughter used to visit her Dad in LA but would have to take the train to Union Station where he picked her up from work because the train no longer ran near his home.
Just now in San Diego, in addition to the Trolley (a very good thing) we have a Coaster from Oceanside that uses the tracks as well as about 10 AMTRAK runs into the LA area ... so the amount of freight traffic is diminished because they use the same tracks. I don't know how long since you've been back in CA but the number of 18 wheelers on the 5 is incredible ... just incredible.

Gad,

Hillary is doing a great job on questioning Petraeus. Either C-SPAN on line or C-SPAN 3 on cable if you have it.

I saw an interesting segment on a local news station last night warning about the health dangers of the electromagnetic fields that hybrid cars produce.....
the scientist who is bringing this subject up got rid of his hybrid Honda Accord when he discovered high levels in the back seat.....

from what I understand, it's kind of the same argument as those that claim living under power lines is bad for one's health...... there's a claim these waves cause cancer.... particularly in children....

here's a site I found on the web for additional information if anyone is interested.....

http://www.hybridcars.com/safety/electromagnetic-fields-in-hybrids.html

Pogo: Our municipal water is crap. It's clean enough (although we have a county ordinance banning flourides -- think Dr Strangelove) but it is just crap. I have a chronic renal condition and have to drink a lot of water, and as I said...it's my big luxury in life.

I switch bulbs as the old ones burn out (even the floods outside) - all the ones we use with any frequency have been replaced with compact flourescents & I haven't bought an incandescent bulb since we started talking about them here. Installed 92+ efficiency furnaces and A/C this year - replacing the 50% efficient ones that were in the house when I bought it. Mrs. P drives an Audi, too - her preference - and I'm not going to try and talk her into anything she doesn't like or feel secure driving since she drives more than 30,000 miles a year in her job. The appliances in our house were purchased before "green" appliances were widely available, but aren't bad according to the little energy sticker on the door of the fridge (considering how little we cook, it's the one appliance we use constantly) - when they fail, which for some won't be too long from now, they'll be replaced with green ones.

Renee: As to EM fields causing cancer ... life causes cancer.

Pogo: You sound very much like me ...

Meg

"Doesn't some of that come from eating too much meat (and milk)which are loaded with hormones"

Think about it. We are the only animal on the planet that continues to give its young milk after the age of weaning, and it isn't only milk that we drink but products and foods containing milk products. Hormones in beef are another horror story.

More and more our family is slowly drifting toward being vegetarians. It's better for health, weight, and the environment. I doubt we will ever totally give up being carnivores, but even cutting back a couple of days a week is a good idea.

If I get another phone call from someone wanting me to get a reverse mortgage I may do something violent. Anyone who hasn't yet reached retirement age ... be warned! You get a whole new crop of lunatics trying to sell you things you don't want and don't need .... people young enough to be your grandchildren calling you by your first name and acting as if you're a senile old fool who just doesn't understand how things work in life .... Aargh

PELOSI: WOMEN IN POLITICS WILL BUILD UPON THE GROUND HRC BROKE.

On Tuesday we heard from Hillary Clinton about the role she believes misogyny played in her probable loss to Barack Obama. Now, in an interview with Judy Woodruff, here's what first female Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has to say on the topic:

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, just quickly. You're in a special place to make an observation on this. How much of a setback will it be for women in politics if she doesn't win?
REP. NANCY PELOSI: I don't think it's a setback at all. I think we have to look at how far women have come in this presidential election. A woman is down to the wire in contention for the presidential nominee.

I think that Senator Clinton's courage and -- you know, she still may win this, but, whatever the outcome, new ground has been broken, and it won't be left broken. It will be built upon.

--Dana Goldstein

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=05&year=2008&base_name=pelosi_women_in_politics_will

Jamie: TY for the information about HRC on C-Span. I trust they will re-broadcast it later. I had wondered if she would return for that questioning ... very wise of her to do so, as there is no question she knows whereof she speaks on military matters.
Quite a contrast to the new Senator on the Foreign Relations Committee who passed his aide a note saying "Just shoot me now," when sitting in his first committee hearing ... just three short years ago.

Reverse osmosis is about the best from what I can tell, and didn't know it removed the objectionable sulfur taste common in FL water - I don't think it was particularly common when I spent much time in FL. All I know is that no one had an effective water treatment system that made the water taste worth a damn. I hear that UV is good, too from a purification standpoint, but have no idea what it does with taste and non-organic impurities.

Maggi, you do what you need to wrt water - with a toxic renal condition, you should be more concerned with prolongling your life than saving the planet IMHO.

maggisd...

Have you signed up on the do not call registry? If you have, they're violating the law in calling you unless the have an established business relationship with you. If you haven't, I think the website is www.donotcall.gov Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this address....

EuroTom: I note that in his last two speeches Sen Obama has gone out of his way to praise Sen Clinton and included that yuck line about his daughters' future. Someone needs to tell him that that particular line is patronizing in the extreme ... he likely thinks it's high praise.
If this is all he's got, it's not gonna be enough to rally support / unity.
My own take on this is that, just as some of us pale faces have been shocked to be told that remarks we consider innocuous are really racist (the fairy tale thing comes to mind), that a lot of men don't hear their own misogyny. Wounds have been opened and I don't think that's what anyone hoped for or expected.

Interesting angry women video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mtgonNfyKA#GU5U2spHI_4

harborwoman: I have signed up. And I do politely so state when I get an actual human being on the phone, as well as asking for the name of the company. Often it is a robocall, where finding out the name of the company requires one to return the call or punch a digit ...

Maggi, I don't push the process, but when I have a decision to make, I weigh the cost and benefits and err on the side of buying greener. I'm kind of a libertarian and liberal in the sense that I do not believe that individuals should be forced to do much by the government and that private industry will not do the right thing unless it benefits it financially, so govenment must either regulate or incentivize industry to do the thing. (While I could drive a more efficient car - and will when I replace this one - government can make all cars more efficient by raising CAFE standards and benefit everyone in the process).

maggisd....
yeah.... I agree.... life causes cancer....

I happened to see that segment on the news last night and just wanted to add a new wrinkle to the discussion on hybrids here.....

on a personal note..... I eat what I eat.... and I drink what I drink..... I never worry about any of it in terms of cancer......

I had a very good friend that ate only all organic.... in season.... whole grains only.... drank only the best well water and cold pressed fruit juices... and meat never touched her lips..... she died from cancer at 57.....

I think living that way is fearful..... I don't practice it.....

First, Craig, I just want to compliment you on your appearances on TV -- you are about the only voice that is logical, unbiased and fair.

Second, about this whole age thing. Last time I checked the Baby Boomers were defined as those born between 1946 and 1962, so BOTH Clinton and Obama are Baby Boomers. This trying to paint him as young and fresh with new ideas and her as old with all that 60's Baby Boomer baggage just doesn't wash.

Third, I realized a grammatical error in my post yesterday about not forgetting Obama's bad treatment of Clinton. It should have read WE old, female, poor, uneducated "typical white people" will not forget.

Pogo: I do as much as I can on a daily basis, but -- like most people -- cannot do big ticket items until I would otherwise have to. So, like you...when and if the time comes I will buy a hybrid of some sort. Meanwhile, I have driven small 4-bangers since the 70s and am scrupulous about keeping them tuned, air filter changed and all that ... unfortunately, as my car ages, the mpg have gone down ... as I said, however, I drive very little these days and usually need gas only once a month or so. I am fortunate to live close enough to the main street in my little community that I can walk most places, provided I do so early enough in the day.

Catbalu: I have to chuckle at your self correction. I have a decent education and spent years editing medical reports and the us/we usage has always been the bain of my existence. I often sit frozen at the keyboard trying to find another way of saying what I want to say just so I don't have to commit to either word.

“A nationwide boycott of MSNBC advertisers will begin tomorrow including Toyota, Nationwide, Geico, Enterprise Car Rental, Lenscrafter, Hotels.com, and Johnson & Johnson.”
Posted by: Nick
http://www.clintonsupporterscounttoo.org/index.html

Thanks Nick.
The best news I've heard all day.
Makes me feel much better.
Revenge is sweet!

come on over to MSNBC political message boards and help me out...you all are very smart ....Clinton supporters let's take this all the way to the convention....hope you can spare a few minutes a day and post some facts over there

Fritz & Kerry...OMG. Will the DNC never learn.
jamie - This is where they could use your Douglas Adams quote.

Although Bill was good in the area of the wilderness, I've really never understood why they didn't do more for conservation. However, as a non-majority President with a Republican Congress he perhaps found that he couldn't do what he otherwise might have." Posted by: maggisd

Not to mention the Monica Lewinsky distractions. That mess surely must have hindered a few things from happening.

We used to have trouble with pesticide run-off getting into the water. Some things probably aren't filterable, but have been using the water filter pitchers for years.

Meg: It has been widely reported that he and Newt Gingrich were on the verge of a deal on Social Security reform when the Lewinsky thing broke open. And, of course, it never happened.
In truth, it would have been better for the country and for VP Gore if Pres Clinton had resigned. On the other hand, I understand why he felt that he had been set up and targeted ...

Meg: I don't know if you remember, but Pres Clinton's idea on SSI was that investing in Govt bonds was not yielding a high enough return and that a certain % of the surplus (remember the surplus?) should be put into more lucrative financial instruments to build up the reserves. The Republicans decried this as way too risky ... until they came up with the idea of privatization.

you all know darn well that if BHO was the one that won in florida that they/you would be doing the exact same thing that HRC is doing. so quityerbitchin.
for all intents and purposes the whole issue is pretty much split right down the middle.......but i really have no idea what the middle is. it doesn't seem like the demographics most often used, (working class vrs college educated) is always correct. it's just all very perplexing. :(

NelsonDecker: The demographics come to us from the media, and are probably just about as accurate as the rest of what they report.

Maggiesd

Boy do I know what you mean about the San Diego water. I used to get a laugh from the border guards as I would take the big five gallon bottles down into baja where a ranch had artesian wells to fill them.

Coming back: Are you bringing anything back from Mexico?

Yes. Water.

where should we go at msn to rant? can't i just stangle andrea mitchell?--please!!!!

it doesn't seem like the demographics most often used, (working class vrs college educated) is always correct. it's just all very perplexing. :( Posted by: NelsonDecker

Nelson, I agree. From my perspective it has more to do with values, trust and confidence. Of course, I can only speak from the side that supports Hillary, but "working class" doesn't necessarily mean your not lberal or educated too. This information is all from exit polls, so how accurate are they?

NelsonDecker: There is a woman who analyzes politics in NH who has appeared on MSNBC from time to time. With regard to the NH exit polling that turned out so badly, she stated that the people she saw doing the exit polling were young and untrained and just running from person to person without rhyme or reason and she therefore doubted that the exit polls were of much value at all. It is a media consortium that reports the polling but no details are available on the competence of the actual persons who poll ...

where should we go at msn to rant? can't i just stangle andrea mitchell?--please!!!! Posted by: NelsonDecker

I'll help.

true. actually i was going to add to that post that if the media (msn in particular) had not been so biased and assinine, maybe we would be in a better place. you never know.

Jamie: Lots of things I don't miss about LA ... but boy, I do miss the water and the earth. We have clay soil and crap water ... good for nothing. When I purchased my home (back when I was young and spry) I first cleared all the typical So Call drek planting and then covered the entire yard in peat moss and just watered it in for six months. Then I lugged in bags of top soil and watered that in for six months .... until I was finally able to turn the earth. My precious double-headed white calla from my grandparents' yard had to live in a pot for a year and a half before I could plant it.

Someone on the site (I think maybe Jack? said once, not long ago, that our thoughts are about as valuable as "dust bunnies" to some of the "elitists" (I am paraphrasing, of course, but something like that). And that's how I feel that Obama maybe thinks. So, if I was filling out an exit poll and was asked, does Obama share your values, then there would be no doubt how I would answer that question. Not only does he not share them, but he doesn't even try to understand them. When someone thinks they are so smart as to already have all the answers, then they have nothing new to learn. And I fear that may be where he's coming from.

actually i was going to add to that post that if the media (msn in particular) had not been so biased and assinine, maybe we would be in a better place. you never know.
Posted by: NelsonDecker

There's no doubt in my mind, we would be in a better place. I think maybe the whole election may have taken on a different tone without them.. Switch to Fox, until the General Elections starts anyway.

And boycott msnbo
http://www.clintonsupporterscounttoo.org/index.html

"Baby Boomers were defined as those born between 1946 and 1962"

The original book "Generations" defined the boomers (Adaptive) as 1943 - 1960

So technically since he was born in 1961 is a thirteener (Reactive).

oh yeah...... those pesky demographics.....

I was watching (actually more like listening) to CNN this morning while working..... and Bill Schneider did a segment on Obama's problem with "working class whites".... he tried to make the case that his problem was mostly with "Appalachian working class whites" as evidenced by Kentucky and the WV primaries..... and said that his win in Oregon proved that he could win over "better educated working class whites".....

I laughed my butt off realizing that now the media has segregated us into 2 specific categories of "working class whites".....

Massachusetts has one of the highest educated populaces of any state in this country..... and yet they went for Clinton...... oooooops.... guess that messes up that theory......

god.... what crap comes out of the media nowadays.....

No, Bri, he was not. In fact, that was a disappointment, particularly considering the interests of his veep. But that's not to say he did nothing - he just didn't do it through CAFE standards - his 1999 initiative attacked the problem from a different direction - through broadly applied tailpipe standards(targeted at SUVs and small trucks - then a huge and growing problem) and cleaner fuel standards to reduce NO by 74% and soot by 84% between 2004 & 2030 rather than fleetwide mileage standards. As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/CEQ/stateswithout2007.html

There were other efforts.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/CEQ/clean.html

I can tell you that a number of hospitals I am aware of - the one I worked for at the time was one - had to shut down their incinerators as a result of clean air standards during the Clinton administraton.

I see you have renewed your attack all things Clinton initiative - so I will renew my don't respond to the troll pledge.

Nick,

Thanks for link to boycott website. Have writeened to 4 sponsors so far, hope everyone can take the time and shoot off an email or two. Look how the potential boycott of sponsors got Imus booted.

"“A nationwide boycott of MSNBC advertisers "

I'm running out of networks since I'm already angry at NBC (MSNBC) and now CBS has cancelled Moonlight though that one is still in the protest phase. ABC is almost pure unadulterated junk.

Yes, I know how to spell, just been typing too much this morning.

i agree RR, i belive they make such B.S. statements because no mater what the story or fact they MUST spin in BHO's favor.

n truth, it would have been better for the country and for VP Gore if Pres Clinton had resigned" Posted by: maggisd

maggi, is that the real reason for the rift between them? And maybe others? I see so much hate against Bill, and hear so many who can't understand why he's so well loved by many of the public. What the "working class" loves about him is that he delivered. They don't all care about the other stuff. They want a president who achieves the kind of results he achieved, in regards to the economy, the deficit and other things that affect us more personally.

This is fun:

http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/stages-of-death-the-obama-campaign/

no mater what the story or fact they MUST spin in BHO's favor."
Posted by: NelsonDecker

You've just stated their wholes reason for "being" during this election cycle. Well, that, and to make lots of many, understandably.

"I do miss the water and the earth."

Yep. Some of the best agricultural land in the world. It's a shame it has houses all over it now.

Meg: I do believe that the entire Lewinsky matter was at least part of the reason for the rift. The Gore family is pretty straight-laced and I think they actually were taken entirely aback by the whole situation. Remember that Mrs Gore shared Joe Lieberman's passion for "voluntary censorship" from the entertainment industry ... one of the things I didn't admire about the Gore wing of the party.
Now, for all his admirable qualities, Al Gore is the prototypical Boomer ... as my daughter always says, "I'm so sick of Boomers and their fat-free lives" ...
Jamie referenced the book Generations ... one of my favorites ... the Boomers are a repeat of the Cotton Mather generation and one of their strong characteristics is presumed to be a need to reform other people's lives.

Clinton / Obama Gallup Daily

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107467/Gallup-Daily-Obama-53-Clinton-42.aspx

Narrowing again and Clinton still outperforms against McCain.

Jamie: Ah yes ... our home was once right next to a small truck farm run by neighbors recently back from internment camps ... and on Sundays we would drive out to Covina to see the countryside ... or to visit friends in Coronado ... San Juan Capistrano was like an outpost in the middle of miles and miles of horse farms and orange groves ...
BTW, I also have Generations ... I know the authors contend that the Boomer generation began in 1943 and went through 1961, others take a different viewpoint...marking generations by events. Thus, the end of WWII, when the birth rate experienced a boom, through 1964, the election of LBJ and the presumed end of Camelot.

as my daughter always says, "I'm so sick of Boomers and their fat-free lives" ... maggisd

maggi,
So that's why that generation doesn't like us?
Your daughter made me laugh!

Nick....

neither will us "brie eating frogs".......

back to work and to watch my beloved Red Sox play Lardass' beloved Royals.....
only one win away from a sweep..... (sorry Lardass...... NOT)....

Maggie

"Generations ... one of my favorites " Technically, I'm a boomer being born in 1944, but being an only child with a childhood that made me grow up fast, I've always been more akin to the tail end of the Silents whose description fits almost perfectly.

Anyone wanting to see a fairly decent electoral site showing McCain v Obama

http://electoralprojection.blogspot.com/

The person who does the site reports on a variety of polls over a certain time period and also shows the map as well as projected electoral college results. He updates every day.

meg,

"I always consider the source" is one of life's best lenses.

Ooh, I bet you're as good for yourself as you are for others.

Meg: My daughter makes everyone laugh. You ought to hear her imitation of Katherine Hepburn (too many Bugs Bunny cartoons as a child).

Jamie: My brother was born in '43 and he never seemed like a Boomer to me. I, of course, am an actual tail end silent ... a wonderful generation filled with achievers who never really got their due.
Of course, we were raised by our grandparents, so we both skewed older than our peers in many ways ...

9/11 - Good on ya' -- you sound a wonderful person with a glorious family.

I have world enough and time, Bri-Bri, to do all of life's vital stuff.
Raise a daughter who excels as an artist.
Move forward in my careers in theater, opera and film.
Love a gorgeous woman who is one of our generation's best regarded poets -- and be loved by her, too. (Great intellectual company as well -- she's a Fulbright scholar.) Posted by: 9/11

A "law of nature" I believe in, you get what you deserve. 9/11, you must be one great guy! Keep up the good work.

Here's one for you 9/11 that you may have missed. Ironic isn't it?

http://stubbornfacts.us/politics/2008_election/and_the_beat_goes_on

For all the lawyers...

The best lawyer story of all time..... bar none

The United Way realized that it had never received a donation from the city's most successful lawyer. So a United Way volunteer paid the lawyer a visit in his lavish office.

The volunteer opened the meeting by saying, 'Our research shows that even though your annual income is over two million dollars, you don't give a penny to charity. Wouldn't you like to give something
back to your community through the United Way?'

The lawyer thinks for a minute and says, 'First, did your
research also show you that my mother is dying after a long, painful illness and she has huge medical bills that are far beyond her a bility to pay?'

Embarrassed, the United Way rep mumbles, 'Uh..... no, I didn't know that.'

'Secondly,' says the lawyer, 'my brother, a disabled veteran, is blind and confined to a wheelchair and is unable to support his wife and six children.'

The stricken United Way rep begins to stammer an apology, but is cut off again.

'Thirdly, did your research also show you that my
sister's husband died in a dreadful car accident, leaving her penniless with a mortgage and three children, one of whom is disabled and another that has learning disabilities requiring an array of private tutors?'

The humiliated United Way rep, completely beaten, says, 'I'm so sorry, I had no idea.'

And the lawyer says, 'So..... if I didn't give any money to
them, what makes you think I'd give any to you?'

8~D

Max: Very interesting site ... and I noted your usual thorough and cogent comment.

I have a question I'm sure you will have an opinion on ... if Obama advocates what Jimmy Carter and Zbig advocate ... the unilateral return to the original borders, without any intervening show of good faith, would you characterize that as appeasement? I would, but I wondered if you would as well.

maggisd,

I've been reading your posts with real appreciation.

It is one thing -- a very good thing -- when someone with whom you may feel or know you disagree expresses thoughts that open your mind to other perspectives.

It's another -- and this is a rare thing -- when someone whose point of view you seem to share gives a person more insight into the dimensions (both lit and shadowy) of what you think you think.

Lots of people come 'round here with so much to offer. And it seems to me that those are the people who receive the most, too.

Like Jamie, like Pogo, like Dexter, Bowmanc and so many others -- most memorably C-Bob -- I hope you experience this place as being as generous to you are you are to it.

Hi jeejee, where've you been?

Celebrating our big win in KY!

RR, you statement about Massachusetts demonstrates a lack of awareness of how long the Clinton's had been building relationships with much of the political leadership there. They summered in MA all during his presidency and there was never a doubt in my mind she would win the primary there.

If you look at the map

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/primaries/mass_primary_dem_results_by_town/

You will see that Obama won in and around most of the major academic centers of Boston and Amhearst, he won in some rural areas and he won in the more affluent areas of Cape Cod.

He lost the college towns of Worcester and Springfield, both were also mill/factory towns before those jobs left, Waltham, home to Brandeis (which speaks to his Jewish problem) and the fishing areas between the South shore and just over the bridges on to the Cape. As I said, these are heavy Portugese areas and from personal experience, they don't like minorities who can speak in complete sentence that don't include "No what I'm sayin?"

The only endorsements that could have won the state for Obama in the primary would have been from Tom Brady and David Ortiz.

Sweet!!!

Nobody talks to us anymore here.

9/11: What a lovely and thoughtful statement. It is very much appreciated. I do feel that finding my way to this site (following an e-mail exchange with Craig) was serendipitous indeed.
And, it helps me keep up my keyboard skills in case I ever need to go back to work, heaven forbid!

That's ok, we're our own best company.

How long before they notice?

I bet at least 30 minutes.

max,

There is always a division among people when it comes to their great, genuine struggle -- whether it is something personal or larger like the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the diaspora, the Shoah, the Inquisition, anything of such scope and bloody depth -- being appropriated by another group, generation, individual or movement.

At this point... I would love it if the rule held that all comparisons were odious.

But there's always a blend of the compelling, the disingenuous, the egregious and the awakening in that stuff...

Unless it is something which has more than its share of evil co-opting whose meaning abjured evil.

So... today I dunno. You look at it head-on and it seems to be... wow. You allow some more dimension into it and you might feel... whoa.

jeejee,

Congratulations on the big win in Kentucky.

I can't quite say "the big win in KY"...

Because everytime I type KY I think of... well...

Congratulations!!!!

9/11 you made me lose my bet. But I also won.

jeejee,

Your win-lose experience may go a ways to relieve the lose-lose trope 'round here these days.

Congratulations to the CQ IT staff on relieving a truly bad case of the hiccups!

"Of course, we were raised by our grandparents, so we both skewed older "

Much the same here as an older aunt often acted as foster mother when needed and then I had my children young. You kind of get confused when things aren't part of the "normal" progress . I'm either ten years older than I am or 20 years younger. : -)

9/11 - with reference to your statement above - I think you make a compelling point when you mention evil. Of course, the belief in evil is unfashionable nowadays. I recently saw an author of my generation speaking to a group of well-spoken teenage girls, engaging in a hopeless dialogue wherein the young girls maintained that one could reason with anyone and that there were no bad people ...
But I digress ... I think yes that the point is that one ought not compare the merely mistaken, unimaginative, or ignorant action with the truly evil.
The Inquisition per se was merely ignorant, but the things done were evil. Slavery was purely evil. The women's movement has been a struggle against fear and ignorance, but some of the things done to women (one thinks of the Occuquan Prison) were evil and so on.
I do, however, think it is just to compare the women's movement to the larger Civil Rights movement ...

Thanks, 9/11. Last time I was here, it wasn't a pleasant place, I think.

Hey

Obama people

Here it is

Michelle
Connecting with
those racist white trash in Ohio.

"I know we’re spending — I added it up for the first time — we spend between the two kids, on extracurriculars outside the classroom, we’re spending about $10,000 a year on piano and dance and sports supplements"

LOL
I love it
There is more

It gets better

"Do you know what summer camp costs?’"

LOL
Clueless totally clueless

real connection there
LOL

think about it Obama people

She is mindlessly chatttering
Surrounded by mothers
whose choice is
Do I
Pay the house payment
or
Buy food
Shelter or food
Shelter or food
Shelter or food

Camp? WTF is that!!!

hey
Can you admit it?
"OK maybe Kentucky wasn't all about race"

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmEyN2RkNzcwYzgyZDY2MDBiY2U5MjJlZGMwNDM2ODg=

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote divided government
Vote McCain

jeejee, RFLMAO

OK -- this has been a most rewarding exchange for me today. Gotta go for now.

maggisd,

Well, my own opinion is that it is right and, after too many years of the indefinable to the point of non-existent "post-feminism", painfully overdue.

I think Hillary Clinton's fight at this point is that, finally, she is in a position of real leadership and in a real battle -- not for feminism but to expose and upend the vile (anagram for evil) sea of misogyny in American life.

Around February little Bri-Bri was rolling in that stuff with such glee... using words like "chestrogen", etc.

He thought he won something -- he always has to, poor thing -- but what he did was lose all credibility as a liberal and a lot as a person.

It is very important to take on this fight. It has to go to the core of daily life and education in our nation as this is not just a problem but corrupting disease.

Senator Clinton has a real leadership opportunity here -- one to make a lot more change and breed a lot more effective hope than her rival's marketing espouses him as The Source.

Hi there JeeJee

Jumping up and down in joyful recognition of the win.
Tooting on a kazoo and throwing confetti your direction.

Meg, I beg to differ with your begging to differ with me. According to Wikipedia and the Baby Boomer HQ or bbhq.com

"The United States experienced an "explosion" of births after American soldiers returned home from World War II. The sociologists define those born between (and including) 1946 and 1964 as "baby boomers."

So that is even farther than I thought and yes, BO is a boomer.

As for the working class white label, once upon a time, working class meant union workers and blue collar workers -- I think MSNBC is now defining working class as anyone who has a job and is not a professor or someone else they deem to be "intellectual."

Maggisd, thanks for getting me -- it is pretty daunting trying to make our way around this English language, isn't it?

"I know we’re spending — I added it up for the first time — we spend between the two kids, on extracurriculars outside the classroom, we’re spending about $10,000 a year on piano and dance and sports supplements" Posted by: Pugnacious

I'm so glad to hear that Michelle understands our needs.
I feel much better now.
Thanks Pug

Thank you, Jamie. It would be nice if our three remaining superdelegates would be as excited. They are still holding out endorsing until the primaries are finished. The people have spoken, & they still refuse to listen.

Meg, I beg to differ with your begging to differ with me. According to Wikipedia and the Baby Boomer HQ or bbhq.com
Posted by: CatBalu |

Say what?
What are you responding to?

jamie,

Did you have a chance to try that new Evening Primrose link?

Perkins is much less intense than either Patinkin or Neil Patrick Harris were on their recordings. His character is just a selfish young man with a dream of escape being some sort of arrival in a new world (which, of course, is a lot more nakedly brutal than his old one).

He's good and, yes, he could always sing. (Sometimes with remarkable passion -- not just intensity -- as he did "Never Never Will I Marry" in Loesser's Greenwillow.)

But the lightstruck one here is Charmaine Carr who is mostly remembered as Liesl in The Sound of Music. Her Ella is a person about whom I cared so much from her first three bars -- not a concept of a displaced innocent.

The music direction is a little more swift than the other recordings and the original orchestrations for the songs are very 60's (and on the cheap -- Studio 67 was a very ambitious series with an even more wanting budget).

Yet there's a real thrill in the underscore which is entirely Sondheim's.

You see... this is the first chance Sondheim had to enter the musical world of one of his boyhood idols, Bernard Herrmann.

Sondheim had even written to Herrmann after he first heard (in the movie and then in a radio broadcast) Herrmann's amazing Hangover Square Concerto.

So in this part of the score Sondheim goes into the chamber orchestra world Herrmann did memorably on his Twilight Zone episodes -- even using, with his own style, Herrmann's Berlioz-like preference for creating small groups of monadic instruments for different sections of the score.

Given how often The Twilight Zone appropriated the original John Collier story... that's just.

So I guess I will continue my work to get the rights to my favorite Collier piece: his novella His Monkey Wife. (My dog just did an aerobic eyeroll -- again. And again. And again.)

Pug, you may be a McCainiac, but there are times I very much appreciate your posts - your 2:38 would be a prime example.

Howdy, bear. Even with the endorsement of the liberal lion of the Senate and patriarch of Mass' most powerful political family, the '04 Dem presidential candidate who carried the state by a 25% margin, and the governor of the state, IOW the top 3 statewide officeholders, Obama could not carry MA. You may be right about Brady and Ortiz.

CatBalu,

I am just about 53 and my mother tells me I am NOT a baby boomer.

Demographic terms bothered me when I was in advertising because they were taken as, well, these immutable TRUTHS.

They're not. They are somewhere between what's arbitrary and manipulable and being an intelligent but not absolute point of reference --

Depending, like polls, on how they are developed and applied.

The US is like a drunk who has passed out on the Titanic just before it hit the iceberg. When the drunk finally is awaken from his drunken stupor by the ice cold water filling his cabin, even he realizes that it is to late to do anything." Frydaddy

Fry, why are there so few solutions? Why won't Congress take any responsibility? What's freezing up the system?

Posted by: Meg | May 22, 2008 8:59 AM

Meg, you are so right on about energy use in the USA... We are HOGS when it comes to it. Americans, and yes I am one, seem to think it's an entitlement to use and abuse as much of the world's resources as they can. The fact is, and people have been warning about this for a long time, we've reached the point where we are finally forced to "pay the fiddler". We have been repeatedly warned that we cannot sustain our gluttony with oil and energy. The Big 3 Auto makers have been repeatedly warned that autos must be constructed to run longer on less fuel, and they respond like Ostriches with their heads in the sand. Is it any wonder that, while the Big 3 American auto makers struggle to stop losing market share, that the foreign auto makers continue to profit with wisely constructed autos and fuel efficiency?

Years ago America could directly influence oil prices because we were the biggest consumer and the only really "big player". With the phenomenal growth of cars in India and China, we have become one OF the players. Frankly I can't understand why Americans refuse to see that they are the biggest problem in this crisis. We refuse to conserve, to make minor changes in our lifestyles to reduce oil dependency and to save energy. It's pretty well established that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism or "democracy". Thus, this leaves only one REAL reason for invading the country: OIL LUST. The USA thought it would easily win the war and install a puppet government that would guarantee a huge oil supply at prices that would keep Americans smiling. Ha !!!

Sorry Fry Daddy, but destroying our public lands to feed this continued gluttony is just insane. Americans need to stop whining about oil prices and start looking at ways to reduce usage. Out of the 155 major countries that use oil, based on prices, America is 111th most expensive. Where I live, we are 8th.

I should add that speculating on the energy markets also creates problems, and if governments really wanted to solve the problem, they would stop making oil barons rich and take away the panic buying and selling options for energy. Of course, oil is traded in dollars and the weakness of the American dollar has also hurt the pocketbook on such a precious, international commodity. Topped off by Bush's brilliant Iraq strategy which has cut off the majority of oil from Iraq... well what other evidence do we need?

SAVE ENERGY... stop allowing the USA to suck up most of the world's resources for only 1/5 of the world's population.

OFF MY SOAP BOX.

Tom

9/11, you may not feel like one, tink like one or act like one, and your mom may deny that you are one, but demographically speaking, you can't escape being one.

pogo,

Oh, I feel like one.

I want mine! I want mine!

(Even when I don't know what's mine or if I'd even want that.)

errr, think like one.

pogo,

Since you sort of brought it up...

I tinkle like one, too

a repost from yesterday re: Blog fights between Clintonites and Obamaiacs

THE CAMPAIGN TOLL
When Democrats Go Post-al
The vicious Clinton-versus-Obama rupture at Daily Kos, the most activist site in the liberal blogosphere, reflects a party-wide split. What really rankles, as Democrats tear at one another, is the free pass they’ve given McCain—and the White House.
by JAMES WOLCOTT June 2008

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/06/wolcott200806

This place is too confusing today. Bottled water, electric cars, toilets with names, boomers, I don't know which topic to pick. And the moderator won't let me talk to myself anymore.

good - hope you get yours and enjoy it. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to get mine - whatever it is.

thats great, pug.
aww, can't you just see how she feels the pain???????
piano lessons / shoes?
dance lesson / food?
yep, she is in-tune with ?????? i have no idea!

jeejee, they KY (win) made me very happy ;)

but not as in winky?

This place is too confusing today. Bottled water, electric cars, toilets with names, boomers, I don't know which topic to pick. And the moderator won't let me talk to myself anymore. jeejee

jeejee, it's starting to feel like I've entered the twilight zone.
I didn't feel lost earlier, but I certainly do now.

9/11

Received the Primrose. I usually save the downloads and listening for evenings when I have time to devote to such things. Will get back to you.

thats great, pug. aww, can't you just see how she feels the pain??????? piano lessons / shoes? dance lesson / food?
Posted by: NelsonDecker

You forgot the sports supplements Nelson.

Now, now, Meg & jeejee, you can't get lost if you don't care where you're going - and no matter where you go, there you are. Just grab a seat and hang on.

Pogo, I never get lost because sooner or later someone tells me where to go.

No, just kidding. I just couldn't resist.

Meg/Jee Jee

Welcome to the old place. This is almost back to normal. Chatting amongst ourselves, stream of consciousness leaping from subject to subject. Cartwheeling off of Craig's columns into never never land.

Stick around, it really gets to be fun. When you find your eyes crossing in total confusion over what to say to whom about what, you have become a crawdad/trailmixer and it is time to go to you tube to pick out a song .

ET, the auto industry is not my favorite bunch, but to be fair, didn't GM introduce a hydrogen car and have a fleet of them tested out in Japan just a few years ago?
never heard what happened other than mention of a similar car was in the works by a non-usa co.

BTW the poopmobiles promoted in prior post wouldn't be marketable as they'd require infalliable drivers.

They must be very thirsty girls for sports supplements to even figure in. I guess piano is very demanding.

poopmobiles? OMG! I remember when I was a little kid and one of the Rockefeller daughters was working on a new style toilet that did not use water. I can't remember too much about it, but it was in The Weekly Reader.

I can't stop laughing! You've got me imagining people "pooping" their rides!

ET,

I can only hope that Belgian toilets don't follow The German Plan.

Rockefeller daughters was working on a new style toilet that did not use water. Posted by: EuroTom

Isn't that called an Andy Gump..

Chatting amongst ourselves, stream of consciousness leaping from subject to subject. Cartwheeling off of Craig's columns into never never land. Posted by: Jamie

Jamie,
you have such a way with words, almost poetic.
I love reading your posts.

This is ironic... i was just thinking about this comment I've read a lot...

"A woman? Yes. But not that woman." It just seems to be a knee-jerk reaction from people who are trying to hide their own sexism in the face of a strong candidate.

And voila, here is an article:

The 'Not Clinton' Excuse

By Marie Cocco
Thursday, May 22, 2008; Page A25

A woman? Yes. But not that woman.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/21/AR2008052102424.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

We've had toilets that didn't use water for ages here. What's the big deal?

Pogo

While Ted Kennedy is beloved in MA, there Baystaters have an inherent "Who Gives a Shit" attitude when it comes to endorsements from political figures. Sports figures are a different story.

When Curt Schilling campaigned for W less than a week after the Series win, I boycotted Dunkin Donuts for a year because of it. Sox ownership campaigned for Kerry and I doubt anyone really noticed.

If Big Papi and Tom Brady came out today and said vote for Obama, not only would Obama win that primary by a 60/35 margin, but 7 out of every 10 boys born for the remainder of this year would be Tom Barrack, David Barrack, maybe even a couple of Paulie Barrack, Petey Barrack and even some Barrack Sullivan's to boot...

Patsi,

I really do feel for you because if your candidate ran this race with half of your gumption, determination or thought process, she would already be on the phone with the White House furniture manager trying to destroy the desk that Monica bumped her head on while picking her own for the Oval...

Well, I'm sliding - and off for a long weekend getaway. Everyone have a good one.

Well, bear, he better hope they aren't naming kids Johnny.

JeeJee

Your in Kentucky, right?

Of course you have waterless toilets, probably a good many of them are in use and functioning.

When I went to college in 1971 I had trouble explaining to my fellow college students how great indoor plumbing was. They were all into the back to the earth movement. They were all going to live off the grid. I kept telling them Nonono electricity good, plumbing good.

My folks bought the farm in 54 the house had no indoor plumbing. they were always going to put in plumbing but never had the money. Then my father became ill all worries about plumbing became replaced with worries about food on the table.
I garden for the fun of it, my mother did it for survival.
As a kid I never thought about it but as an adult I often wonder how they did it

Jack

Meg, I beg to differ with your begging to differ with me. According to Wikipedia and the Baby Boomer HQ or bbhq.com
Posted by: CatBalu |

Say what?
What are you responding to?

Posted by: Meg

Sorry -- I guess I'm dyslexic today -- I was trying to respond to a post from Jamie.

And 9/11 survivor, I only brought it up because the media seems to be dwelling on it as a kind of slam to HRC and I didn't think it was fair -- what else is new with the media?

Craig:

Does anyone else find it ironic that HRC is "fighting" for Florida & Michigan delegates reinstatement for a rules violation that was approved by the DNC rules committee, which is stacked with her supporters. Why didn't Harold Ickes and Don Fowler, arguably the best practitioners in the arcane universe of DNC rules and bylaws speak up for them at that time?

Bear -- I was wondering where you were....I went to the store yesterday and bought some peanut butter pie, some chocolate cream pie and rhubarb to make a rhubarb pie! Haven't started on any of it yet because I also stopped at Dairy Queen on the way home and got a peanut butter milk shake.

I'm blaming this all on you. (except for the rhubarb...that's on Ruth's head.)

Jack, when I was a little girl, it was always an exciting (if smelly) adventure to visit an outhouse. However, they are very rare today. Maybe we should bring them back, so we can use the "fallout" as alternative energy.

Eurotom
When I was a child we had waterless toilets.
They were called outhouses!

Ruth

Patsi
Hope you enjoy those pies.Glad I was any help.

My neighbor still used her outhouse until she died six months ago.A woman from the senior community called on her one day to check if she was being abused by relatives and was talking on the phone to me while she was there.She said she had to hang up because she had to go to the bathroom and did not want to use outhouse.She thought my neighbor did not have indoor plumbing.She did but was not about to let a stranger in her house.
She would rather drive five miles before she would use the outhouse.I thought it was kinda funny.The outhouse was clean.

Ruth

my neighbor hid money in the outhouse.She must have known modern people were squeamish so she thought it was safer there than in her house.

Ruth

Democrats Should Be More Democratic
http://www.creators.com/opinion/froma-harrop.html

Patsi,

Rhubarb? I always wondered how hungry someone must have been to make a pie out of rhubarb...

How were the chocolate and peanut butter pies though? Did you accidentally mash them together to make a Reese's Pie? lol

Bear....
com' on now...... you know damn good and well that Ortiz is not a US citizen.....
why the hell should he care about our politics....
and yes.... I'm well aware of the Clintons forging lots of relationships in Mass while vacationing there..... that still doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the media is clueless.....

BTW.... the Red Sox did sweep the Kansas City Royals..... they won this afternoon 11-8.... and hit 2 grand slams in the game...... poor, poor, Royals.... scored 8 runs and still couldn't beat the Sox.....

ETom..... are you talking about composting toilets?...

jesus Patsi..... you're making me drool.....

JeeJee

nonono plumbing good, trust me
An out house is the hottest place in the summer and the coldest in the winter.

There is nothing like doing your thing when it is 20 below and the wind is blowing up your back side.
It is all one motion, drop your drawers, do you think wipe and pull your pants up. Its about that fast. When I went to college I had a roommate that would set 30 min on the stool. I never developed that habit.

Jack

jeejee,
Are you a member of the Birch John Society?

Ruth, we had an outhouse and a big sack of lime. The rule was you had to throw a can of lime down the hole after going.
Later we had to use a CCC built outhouse, which had a tank, which would splash your ass ! I HATED that damn toilet!
Our school had an outhouse, a three-holer, until 1958 when we got flushers inside the school house.
This was DeKalb County, Indiana, mid-1950's, Ike's America.

Renee

Ya know the Redsoxs are about to become just like the Yankees. I'm starting to really dislike them.

I've still got my name on the list for playoff tickets. the Royals can do it, sure they can.

Jack

RebelRen: Tigers just swept Seattle, whois even worse than Detroit, I guess...but WE GOT HOCKEY !!! GO WINGS ! win the CUP!

Renee,

I know Ortiz isn't a citizen. That doesn't mean that his endorsement wouldn't carry weight though...

I found my grand aunt's recipe for a paper bag apple pie that I am going to make when I get home.

Yes you bake the pie in the bag because it traps the and moisture giving you a moister pie...delicious!!!

frank
lol
good one
Jack

I have always heard that the greatest salesman in the world was the guy that sold the first indoor plumbing to the farm wife.

"You want me to What in my house?"
"you gotta be kidding me!"

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

k

Um , Go Pistons?

jACK: I am a lover of the sport, and I root for several teams.The Red Sox are FUN to watch and are not obnoxious like some other team in that division, sorry EdVB!
Even though the Cubs proved they are a second-level tram i last year's playoffs, they sure are a good Spring team...and the White Sox are killing too.
The biggest disses are San Diego and Colorado...and the Mets. Doncha just love it that the 20 million dollar team payroll Marlins are kicking ass in that division? The WHOLE TEAM makes less, by far, than A-Rod the A-Hole.

Several days ago - one of the girls from Massachusetts said Senator Kennedy wanted his wife to fill his senate seat and actually made a deal with gov - deval. Fox just announced that indeed Kennedy wants his wife to fill his seat. But also nephew Kennedy might be in running..

Julie

My father used to always say that people were crazy.They are now eating outside and shitting inside!
Ruth

Johnny Cash God's Gonna Cut You Down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e0EQlQXoEo

Jack

I've only visited them during the summer months, when I was at my friend's house, so what I remember most was the flies.

Well I came off sounding a little harsher than I meant to, but that's what happens when you say, "Sure you can quote me." :)

Anyway I got the opening and closing on the article.

http://www.newhouse.com/race-trumped-gender-now-obama-must-mend-broken-hearts.html

O'Reilly is supposed to have something on his show tonight about Msnbc and unfairness in election.

Ruth

Well, I have not been on here for a while but I do read your comments, Craig. I have sworn off politics, at least for now. haha
I am so outraged that Obama is now looking for a VP. He is one sick man. How dare he even think that. I hope Hillary never gives up. NEVER. Take it to the floor of the convention. One of the pundits even had the nerve to say that Oregon is similar to Ohio and PA. He must have been high on something.
Just have to keep the faith!!!
Go Hllary!!!!

Bear...
I was only teasin' you..... of course I know his endorsement would be gold....

Jack..... yeah..... I hear everyone hates the Patriots too......

Dex.... I heard the Mariners are a big disappointment this year (sorry Harborwoman..... really...) I want the Red Wings to take the Cup.....
I really like those old time teams..... can't get used to something called the Anaheim Ducks.....

Corey, sure, the Pistons are in...I watch and all...but damn! There is NOTHING like Lord Stanley's Cup to bring out the crazed fan in me. Hockey is so exciting,and the Red Wings so fast and good...I am really geeked over this ! Red Wings playoff hockey is the only sport that gives me stomach butterflies and anxiety on game day...you know what I mean?
I saw the Cup being paraded up Woodward in 1997...it was shining like The Holy Grail in bright sunshine...it was great!
A great parade that day....

Dexter
Our one room school house had outdoor toilets and every Halloween the older boys turned them over.

At my dad's picnic grounds my brother put a mike in the toilet and when one of the woman went in and sat down,He said "Be careful would you,I'm working down here.She came out of there like a bullet.

Ruth

The thing is , I've got the next two weeks off from work. I'll get to watch all of the games , Dexter. No more leaving after the 2nd period. Huzzah!

RebelRen...Seattle really sucks...the Tigers obliterated them all 3 games...just like Hillary Clinton will obliterate Iran, maybe.

Yes, it will probably be Senator Vicky until Patrick takes over in the Senate.

Carol
I'm like you.Where does he get off looking for a VP.Being ahead in delegates does not mean anything.He has to reach the magic number of pledged delegates which neither one can do.The SD 'sdon't matter until the convention when they can vote after the first vote is taken then they can vote for the candidate of their choice.A lot van happen between now and then.Their choice now doesn't count.
And who knows what Rev.Wright is going to say when he speaks very soon.

Ruth

Corey, good! If I hit the MegaMillions I am going to all the games in my brand new shiny red Mustang. Otherwise I watch at home.

Renee
Ya know
The patroits are kinda like the French. Irritating but ya don't really want to stomp them, just put them back where they belong.

Not like the Raiders, Now there is a team you want to stomp. The Raiders are truly evil

Jack

O'Reilly talking about MSNBC? Ruth, that should really get Keith Olbermanns panties in a twist! I love it!

Oh, and my grandfather absolutely refused to have indoor plumbing, either. He didn't believe you should do such things in the house.

Well, I'm out of here for now. Got to go check on Mom, etc. Talk to y'all later.

Jack,

You have officially made my communist shit list for saying the Red Sox are just like the Yankees.

Yes they have a high payroll but here are some major differences...

1. They develop their young talent such as Pedroia, Ellsbury, Masterson, Lester, Papplebon, Delcarmen, that they keep.

2. They develop young talent that flourish elsewhere like Eckstein, Freddy Sanchez, Hanley Ramirez, David Murphy and Kason Gabbard.

3. Their owners aren't publicity seeking assholes.
4. They have only one player you really can't like...Schilling.

Johnny Cash "I Walk the Line" live 1959

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krVACUbciJE

Jack

Ya know Bear

they are out there on the east coast.

It is hard to tell them folks are part
They all look the same from here.

Jack

CatBalu, welcome. love the screen name

Carol, welcome back.

Jack,
Johnny cash on the 2008 elections:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aDSN1F72QU4&feature=related

LOL
Good one frank
Remember that one from TV in the 60's

Jack

I am continually amazed with finding the word "hate" on some sites that mention either Bill or Hillary." Posted by: Nick

Nick,
I had it explained to me once that charisma, charismatic people, not only inspire allegiance and devotion from many, but attracts venom, hate, and many negative reactions from others. I guess they bring out the best in the worst in us.

And Bill and Hillary both have their share of charisma or they wouldn't be where they are today. But they've also been in politics long enough to have more than their share of enemies.

Remember the saying: You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time-or something like that.

Everyone hates the Patriots because they put the team first. You folks may not remember this, but after they won their first Super Bowl, Rush Limbaugh called them communists because they refused to be introduced individually.

PAUL SOLMAN: If the league's success is due to equality, the Patriots' surprise supremacy may be even more so. The team came out for the Super Bowl as a group, despite individual introductions, causing Rush Limbaugh to complain, "working together for the greater good is so close to 'the communist manifesto,' it's frightening."

I guess those people who wondered how she stayed with Bill Clinton after the Monica thing are surprised she is still paying Mark Penn right?

Senator Kennedy should have asked Sen. Clinton to fill in for him at the commencement, given it's her alma mater and we want to come together. It would have been the classy thing to do. Also still no mention that the "Obama Rally" in Oregon was neither. But the Heads still keep showing pics and remarking about no politician drawing this crowd. WTF?

Jerry Lee Lewis-Great Balls of Fire

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yQMYtUB2Y_k

jack

Fats Domino, Blueberry hill

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BDgnosZjWAU

Jack

Jack,
Jerry Lee Lewis-Great Balls of Fire

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r5b7-xp23nE

He's still got it.

Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour #1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRxs8p8Is0

Jack

Holy Cow Nick - that story was chilling. 6:34 post

Julie

Frank
Yep, he still does.

Looks a little old tho.

Jack

Terrific thread today, folks. I just read through it all. Lots of interesting back and forth on environmental stuff, especially. And it looks like everyone managed to stay off the usual hamster wheels of debate as much as could be expected.

Renee...even though you're rooting against my Royals, I'm pulling for your Celtics (I know, I know. Sorry Corey).

Jack...I keep meaning to ask you which part of KC you're in. I grew up out in Independence...spent my college years in a rental house at 54th and Forest, lost several thousand brain cells in the right-field general admission section during the Royals glory years...other rental houses at 44th and Pennsylvania and 63rd and Main. Jerry's Westport Country Playhouse was the first real bar I ever went to to chase girls on a regular basis, learned how to prevent many a hangover with 3 a.m. omelletes at Sanderson's Lunch counter...Even saw Texas Bob Geigel eat a bowl of hotdogs there one night. One of my favorite bars later on was right down the street -- at the Grand Emporium at 38th and Main. Anyway, just writing this makes me homesick...I love that town...All my people are buried there.

Just as long as you don't root for the Spurs , LL.

Bear -- haven't got into the pies yet....still have a sugar hangover from the peanut butter milk shake.

Corey...I definitely understand why you hate the Spurs, so I won't challenge you on that. I have no real blood loyalty to them or any other team in the amazing Western Conference...I just appreciate the talent, especially Tim Duncan. I think my favorite team in the west is Phoenix...I definitely root for them over San Antonio. I don't mind the Lakers -- in fact, I really love how they beefed up this year and made the team great again.
I can't wait to see how the Hornets develop if they stick together. Watching Chris Paul is almost enough to make you forget Steve Nash -- almost.

I think we all need to pitch in and buy His and Her defibrillators for Bear and Patsi, based on all these recipes of theirs I'm reading!

This thing about Obama not getting the white “working class” in WV, SE Ohio, and KY is actually about racism and bigotry…not working class OR his qualifications. I’m sure ALL OF YOU KNOW THAT. I know without a doubt because I’ve lived, seen, heard, and witnessed it first hand for years. Didn’t happen in Oregon, did it? And white “working class” in other winning states!

After my “vinegar” or “too much coffee” (as a couple of you commented) post yesterday I did not reply because there was neither any reason nor time for it. I entertained my mother (who had been with me for the past 13 days from SE Ohio and originally from WV) and my two aunts (from SE Ohio) who visited for the day. Now, mind you, my mother is 83 and has recovered from a stroke, my aunts are younger but highly educated…and one is well traveled internationally. You know what happens when people go away to get a good education then return to the cesspit that is bigotry and racism, as most in my SE Ohio family have? They forget everything they learned or experienced in college and go back to being that same person in the cesspool of bigotry and racism. My analogy compares to someone taking a good, clean shower then diving right back into filth by returning to where they came from and forgetting everything they experienced before.

So many times these past 13 days while my mother stayed with me I heard her talk about “that ole colored man” (referring to my candidate). Now, I realize her age is a factor and she comes from another period in history, but my two aunts are like that fat WHITE female who was interviewed on NBC after the WV primary saying “Aah won’t ever vote fer a person of another color”. Does that bother anyone else? Right on television for the nation to hear and see. Finally requested from my mother to refer to my candidate as a “black man”, not an ole colored man, but just ignored it after a while. All that and I still love my “folks”.

I am so proud that even during a different time in the 60’s I left my home in SE Ohio and came to the “city” to get an education and never, ever felt that I was talking to a “N” or a colored person. My first job was for the State of Ohio. My first college was a business college where primarily blacks attended. Someone once asked me at my state job “how can you go there with all those “N’s” (yes, that word)? I just said (and this is the truth) “I didn’t notice; they were just people.” They were and they were nice as well! Thank GOD for my Welsh father!

So many in my mother’s family in WV go to church on Sunday morning to praise Jesus then on Sunday afternoon they talk about “the colored”. That’s the demographics of WV, SE Ohio, and KY… according to what I’ve seen and heard. Obama just has to work around those states, forget them, and concentrate on the other states where there is more intelligence.

This election is not about being sexism. It’s about this particular white female running for president. It’s not about the fact she is a woman. We ARE ready for a female president, but not this one. Too bad it would seem that WV, SE Ohio, and KY will only vote her and not someone who could bring about real change and unite us throughout the world. IMO, Obama has had to overcome more racism than Clinton has sexism and much of it brought about by the Clinton’s themselves!

I found a use for Jerry Lee Lewis recently ... we are all looking older.

http://jdurward.blogspot.com/2008/04/shaken-and-stirred.html

Thanks for sharing that post, Karolenna. Interesting observations there.

Karo -- Just because your relatives are racist, don't tar all of rural America.

Why do I feel if a lot of the women on this site got a chance to tell Obama how they feel the conversation would be a lot like this

Hit the road Jack, Ray Charles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I

LOL
I've heard it a couple of times.
Jack

Karolena
Having racist family can make one over reactive
I understand. But remember your over reaction is also tinged with racist thought. What is nice is when you can see the issues as just issues.

Jack

“Aah won’t ever vote fer a person of another color”. Does that bother anyone else? Posted by: Karolenna

Yes, it really bothers me.

I was so touched by your message and you told it so beautifully.

But then I had to get to the end and have the "blame" for all that bigotry and injustice laid on the Clinton's shoulders. And it ruined the message for me.

It was so powerful, If you could have just stopped short of that, then it would have meant so much more to me.

Karl Rove has been subpoenaed.

AT LAST!

Here's hoping that lady justice isn't blind.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hZDPDG3HNjIv0GWUaM1t0BED3UoAD90QUE681

tt

HOORAY! Conyer's is still at it. You go, guy!

House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, Jr. (D-MI) issued a subpoena Thursday to former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove

*loud applause*

tt

Water.

Back in '94 my city in Florida installed a reclaimed water system to take care of needs such as irrigation and car washing. It was expensive because it involved building a parallel water system going to every home and business in the city.

Basically, effluent from the county sewage plant was made extra 'clean' and given a good shot of chlorine. And then piped down to our city. Yes, it was potty water. But it took a big load off our finite fresh water resource and reduced the infiltration of saltwater into the aquifer.

The engineers claimed it was safe to drink. Although we had a glass jug of it on the commission dais, I declined a sample.

Now, at home in South Carolina, we have a reverse osmosis system with pre- and post carbon filters. It takes care of our cooking and drinking water needs as well as the ice cubes and dispensed water from the fridge. It's an expensive solution to getting very good water.

The Detroit Free Press is reporting that McCain has a nationwide edge over Obama. Ouch.

"then I had to get to the end and have the "blame" for all that bigotry and injustice laid on the Clinton's shoulders."

Don't be surprised, Meg. The Clintons have been blamed for everything from the 30 Years War to the Grassy Knoll....why not for Karoleena's racist family?

Jack

If I were talking to him face to face, it would be,

"Go back to the Senate and actually do the job you were elected to do for a while and then consider asking for a promotion if you've earned it."

Jamie,

Read your comments in the Newhouse News article.

Your thoughts do reflect what many Hillary supporters believe about this primary season. I would say they are candid rather than harsh.

Mending broken hearts--not likely.

Don't be surprised, Meg. The Clintons have been blamed for everything from the 30 Years War to the Grassy Knoll....why not for Karoleena's racist family? Posted by: Patsi

I guess I should be used to it by now.

Flatus...here's the most amazing thing about water in Florida. Approximately HALF of all household consumption goes toward watering the signature St. Augustine lawns here. It amounts to billions and billions of gallons of fresh, finite aquifer water every year...and here's how it translates down to a single homeowner:

Running a typical four-zone lawn irrigation system to spread a half-inch of water on a typical quarter-acre residential lot requires something like 1,700 gallons of water. And even under "draconian" water restrictions, folks here are allowed to do that twice a week. It's absolutely amazing how much of this precious resource goes toward maintaining what is in the end an unnatural, aesthetic appearance. Many neighborhood associations prohibit lawns other than St. Augustine.

Not sure how that compares to usage in other states -- but in Florida, at least, lawns are Public Enemy Number One when it comes to water conservation.

And let's not even get started on comparing average daily water usage by Americans vs. other countries.

My Dad has said many racist things over the years as well. He is basically a real life version of Archie Bunker. I chastise him every time he says something stupid. But , his stupid comments are not just limited to race , but to many other things as well.

Governor: Hamas nod dooms Obama in Florida

Charlie Crist cites controversy that began with WND interview

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65029

My great uncle arrived in this country from impoversished Ireland in the late 18th Century. He made his way, penniless, to Kansas City...where he sought a job in the railroad yards there. A yardmaster put him inside a railroad car with a shovel in his hand at one end of a big pile of coal. At the other end was a black man, also searching for a job. The yardmaster told them whichever one shoveled his way to the middle of the pile of coal first would get the job.

"...And, yes indeed, I got to the middle before the negger did..." my great uncle said in his Irish brogue. "And so I got the job."

He ultimately worked for the railroad for something like four decades, and rose to the position of trainmaster for all the KC yards.

So...was he a racist? Or an American success story?

Jamie
I'll look, but I don't think they've got that song. Let me think a bit

Jack

Great Uncle.
Late 19th Century.
Late 1800s.
Sorry.

Language is a transitory thing, isn't it, Lard....my son's black HS pals considered the term African American a put down. They said they were "black."

Lard, our solution was primarily aimed at 'transplants' who thought that they needed a northern style lawn.

You're exactly right about the amount of drinking water diverted to irrigation--it's staggering. And even the reclaimed water program in areas other than our city, became difficult to connect to because the sewage plants simply couldn't meet the demand as much more water was used for irrigation than potties.

We had a very strong native plant element to our program that stressed the joy of xeriscaping.

Only half jokingly, when I was on an advisory committee to the Tampa Bay National Estuary program, I suggested stopping every transplant at the border requiring them to take two days of classes on the fragility of the Florida environment and what their new responsibilities would be.

The words "nigger" and "Jew" were part of Harry S. Truman's everyday vocabulary as he grew to manhood on a small farm in western Missouri, and even as he joined a business partnership in a haberdashery with one of his best friends, who was Jewish. Most certainly the words did not disappear from his private vocabulary throughout his life.

As president of the United States, he pushed for integration of the U.S. Armed Forces and the creation of the state of Israel.

Racist? Bigot? Or Great American Success Story?

You make the call.

Here's a thread for you Lard. Wonder how you'll come down on it.

http://armchairgeneralist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/05/mccain---not-a.html

How about this one Jamie

"Go Away, Little Boy" - Marlena Shaw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7TYtvkGib90

Jack

'I think it's time for reprints of the early "Whole Earth Catalogs" to start appearing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog

Racist? Bigot? Or Great American Success Story?
Posted by: LardassLiberal

Just words?

To the people in those 2 stories you told, I'd say yes.
And your point is well taken.

But using the right words now that we know better can help promote respect and do affect the way we think.

So I'm glad things have changed.

Thanks for the link, Max...I'll check it out.

Jack...did my tour of 1980s KC bore you, or what? Just trying to make a connection there, old pal.

I've mentioned that my son works for a military contractor. Yesterday the General Lee was finally returned to its unit. You can see from this article why it has taken almost a year for them to give it back.

General Lee's Last Ride

http://www.nwguardian.com/103/story/803.html

LL
I wrote it , the wife called and it disappeared
I've got another drink
I'll start all over again

Jack

Jack

Which song? The clip of "Whole Lot of Shaking Goin on" is in the blog article.

Jack...don't kill yourself over it dude. It's the thought that counts and we can pick up the conversation another day.

(I just fired the braking rockets to enter my own special orbit over the Planet Martini, so I totally understand.)

Monday,I went to the Museum of Science and Industry and they had a "GreenHouse".They recycled dish water to flush the toilets.And the toilets had a big flush and a little flush.The deck was made out of plastic bags and sand and floors in house were made of bamboo.Fireplace was clean because they burned corn oil,I believe.Was very interesting home.there was a more environmentally friendly products in home .If you get to Chicago,I recommend it

Ruth

Dex...Stop being mean to my Mariners!!! At least Renee said she was sorry for commenting on how bad they are!

Karma works....

Max...your Horace Mann education keeps shining through! While I was fumbling around with standard "hystera" derivatives, you went right to the Greek root. Good show!

Wjhat a cool place Ruth. I remember long ago seeing an X-15 and was forever changed. That Skunk Works baby gave way to the Black Bird.

Now that was the Right Stuff.

I guess Chicago has changed a bit, but green is certainly the way of the future. I saw a rocking chair recently that recharged batteries. Who said the elderly can't work?

Jack

That is one very funny lady. I think the Senator is a harder worker than that. It's just that he keeps changing jobs. : )

Naw, I just have a fond memory of things female and Greek....

That was AFTER Horace Mann but before my Sankrit exposure of present....

It's not the specific information that is the hallmark of a good education. It is the thought process that is instilled.
Hence, Horace Mann.

Horace Mann did shit for my spelling...LOL

I guess I rebelled too much

When we were kids in the early 40's we would call each other Dirty Japs when we were mad at each other.And there was a house here in the country hidden by trees and bushes and everyone said that is where they hid the Natzies.When I grew up I realized we used the "dirty Japs"quote because we were at war with Japan but at the age of 7 we had no idea why we said what we did.Also the home was used to hide important German citizens that wanted to get away from the war and were probably relatives of the homes owners.

Before this country became politically correct A lot of different nationalities were called all different kinds of ethnic names.There were no blacks in the area so we never developed a bias against them.Hence no name calling.

There were Kykes,Sheenies,Dago's,Pollacks,to name a few and no one seemed to take offense.It was just the way things were then.It was usually the adukts that used those names.Exvept for the word "Japs" I don't ever remember any classmates all through school that used the names our parents used.

Ruth

Okay...the Planet Martini is looming large now in my window. I'm going to do a de-orbit burn and look for a soft landing spot in the Sea of Vermouth.

"One small sip for man...One giant gulp for mankind..."

And all that.

See you folks tomorrow! It was great fun tonight. Love you.

"I saw a rocking chair recently that recharged batteries. Who said the elderly can't work?"

Glad you posted that Max because it triggered a thought about the elderly and tax credits. The credits suck because so many of us have no earned income. We need energy grants that we can use immediately and effectively.

Not only will the grants take care of us and reward us for our many years of faithful tax paying, the resultant energy saving installations will serve as motivators for our children and grandchildren in their energy saving efforts.

Remember. For the elderly it must be grants, not credits.

My parents told me I owed that to THEIR genes, but yes, learning how to learn seems to be the key.

I think the best thing HM did for me was to realize there were three sides to every story, or as one teacher said "never forget the excluded middle".

So THEY are responsible for my continual exile in no man's land. And so it is Lard. The excluded middle.

Ruth, I remember the 'Japs' just as you do. And, we used to burn Hirohito's house down. I would be ashamed of myself more than I am if they would simply tell my wife what they did with her sister.

Flatus

That is why politicians love tax credits. It sounds wonderful in a news release, but the people who have the greatest need for whatever "benefit" the politician is promoting, can't use the "credit" and therefor it doesn't cost the government anything to continue to do nothing.

The elderly are a huge unexploited pool of experiance and labor. Don't get anxious....I mean one elderly guy told me he works to find missing persons. He says his knowledge is key and he just needs a computer. Another teaches English, another answers hotlines.

My mom just decided to retire from hauling antiques to shows. She is over eighty and in great shape. She had me a bit later in her life....LOL

Now I know why I detest the Nanny State. It carries us unwittingly from cradle to grave. Damn the enabler. Damn the grave. The New Political Party will be anti-Death. Now there is a radical political concept. And undoubtedly there will be radical religionists representing the Party of Death. Gee, look at what we'll all be missing........

Huffpo has article of names of committee for next week's dnc fl - mi meeting. 13 Hillary -7 Obama- 7 neutral and 2 head of committee - no vote.
This is on the politics section page. Sorry I can not give you a link - just put explorer 7 into use and now cannot copy and paste. Do not know why.

Julie

LL
the wife is in NY just put her to bed. She has had a hard week and tomorrow she is coming home.
That reminds me of a song, Ill post it later.

We live on the east side of Kansas City
Just west of 435 and Truman rd.

I was raised in southern Missouri in 71 I moved up here to live in my sister's basement ( east of 291 and 24 hiway in farview)and went to college behind the Truman library. CMSU had an extension there. By spring My sister and I had all we could stand of each I move to westport and for 3 yrs ran with a bunch of hippies, smoking dope screwing around and other youthful indiscresions.
Went back to the country until the Reagon recovery meant I could sell off all my cattle and almost pay off the bank. In 1985 I came back and begged a friend for space on his floor until I could get a job. Got a job vending beer at royals stadium, worked the playoffs and worked the world series. I soon had an apartment 2 block from where jesus is returning to this earth(if your from Independence you know where I'm talking about)

In 1990 a friend's( the same one mentioned earlier today) grandmother died and they were trying to sell the house. they wanted $8000 for it, sounded great. I bought it. I got ripped I paid twice what they were offered. In the next three years I had 2 shoot outs in front of the house. A young man was killed up the ally and one was shot in Teresa's drive in. I learned to be tough, I also pissed off the cops and got a contempt of cop citation(aka disorderly conduct). Thank god for the Mexicans. They moved in and things quieted down.
I had to learn to like Mexican music, but it beats gunfire.

met the wife and became married for the first time at 50.
She says I'm the best thing that ever happened to her. I worry about her.

The wife is an Independence girl. Her folks owned a notell motel just west of 291 and 24 hiway

Thats my story and i'm sticking to it

Jack

FL Delegates Sue DNC Over Delegate Strip
By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:59:35 PM EST
Tags: (all tags) Share This:
Remember Bob Bauer (PDF) on the Voting Rights Act pre-clearance problem for revotes in Michigan and Florida? Well, some Florida delegates seem to think he had a point. They are suing the DNC:

Three Florida delegates, including the state's Senate Democratic leader have filed a federal lawsuit against the Democratic National Committee claiming the DNC violated their constitutional rights by barring them from the party's national convention.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/22/175935/458

Max, you really should put her back to work--after all you've come to enjoy your internet lifestyle--someone has to pickup the cost of the subsidies provided whomever doesn't need them.

Julie
Here is a link from talkleft about the credentials committee

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/22/1108/27571

it lists names etc as well

My Dad ,who drove a truck for years, said this was the only real truck driving song written.

- Six Days On The Road

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uuOxdvVRM8s

Jack

No disrespect Jack, but the only version that counts is Dave's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKcYRkUI0Dk

Lard and Max -- ROFL! You two smackdown Bri-Bri and he changes the subject!

And Jack! Love the KC stuff. I lived on the Plaza at the Casa Loma in 1967 and 1968. LOVE KC!

Jack, what a great quote: " I learned to be tough, I also pissed off the cops and got a contempt of cop citation (aka disorderly conduct). Thank god for the Mexicans. They moved in and things quieted down. I had to learn to like Mexican music, but it beats gunfire."

Christ, I wish I had a "contempt of cop citation!!!!" It could still happen.

Bear -- I'm trying to decide between a piece of chocolate pie and a glass of Chardonnay. Tough call.

Jack, I really enjoyed my time in that area. The people were stubborn, cantankerous, but really, really nice.

Rez
dave is good

I like damn near every version of that song

Flying burrito Brothers

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uQMJUhlxR3M

Jack

I like this one too.

Sawyer brown , Six Days on the rode

http://youtube.com/watch?v=B-PIKzm-8Xs

Jack

LardLib:

Our heads are up our grass...!

Karolenna: just because your family is, doesn't make ALL of us & resent you implying that it is ..... I live in KY & yes, most over 70 are, but ... the ones I DO know, it's not so much the color of their skin, but by bad experiences they had with AA ...

Oh, I know, you do not want to believe it, But Hillary HAS had to cope with more than you realize & if you 'd ever come down from your high horse & actually READ what is being said about her, you might see .. i said might, since once for BO, always from I see on line ...

"Now I know why I detest the Nanny State. It carries us unwittingly from cradle to grave. Damn the enabler. "

Damn, Max -- the "Nanny State" hasn't ever done jack for me. What am I doing wrong?

Meg & Patsi:

Yeah, everything has always been blamed on Bill & Hillary Clinton .. hell, Bush wasn't in office that long before he started blaming him for everything that was going bad ... everytime I heard it on TV, would scream & cuss at it ... still do sometimes ... !:^}

Ray Charles - What'd I say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPP8w0wMRgQ

Jack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znkGFYK1U4Y&feature=related

Ray Charles -
BHO theme song for November.

Julie

No, it's not Brain .. I won't go into it, since I'm included in that statement ....
I don't think of myself as racist ..

I went on to work along side alot of AA's in my 30 years ... there were alot that I thought of as dear friends .. but just like there is a bad side to most people, there is in AA's ..

so .. it's not the color of ones skin, but the person & what they project to others ...

Flatus

What do you mean stubborn and cantankerous, when did we ever meet?
And have you been talking to my wife.
That sounds like something she would say.
I am not stubborn. I'm very reasonable and only lose my temper when provoked ;-)

Jack

Jack, I'm sure it was your wife who was the really, really nice one!

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about a person with your taste in music. :}

Flatus I will agree with that one . She is very nice and gets extra credit for putting up with me most days.

Bed time
See you tomorrow

Summertime - Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKgAEkCKxY

Jack

Pats, I mean the Nanny State many long for and many Europeans enjoyed for years. The present State hasn't done nothing and I'm stumbling from cradle to grave all by myself. We live in another kind of Denial of Death.

I guess some utopians here imagine the authroitarian charm of Big Mother (as opposed to Big Brother).

Flatus, I don't get anything from my mom. She works because she loved it and I have no doubt that it kept her fit. She often traveled to Europe to buy and then has great fun selling stuff. It has become a bit of a drain. For a number of years, being the closet child to her business, I help subsidise her....LOL. "But I gave birth to you".

I think the elderly should enjoy respect and comfort in their retirement. I only meant there are so many things they are MORE capable of doing than most if they want to. And I think tax credits for them are bogus, like you said. My grand parents were cool, so I always loved older people. And I love young people and children. Its just the people in between I have some problems with.........

Also work has been slow these last few weeks and often these days I'm actually building projects in my apartment. Anyone have a nice renovation in NYC? That would get me off this blog.........LOL

don't worry. I may be building a house in Mass come Sept. And after November what will happen here? No more fights? It is hard to imagine. Any thoughts? Or will we be focused on the backlash for 2010?

Oh & HOW do you KNOW that they didn't have a bad experience?? Hmmmm??

!:^}

I didn't expect you too, lol

hey
bri bri

need help
try this one

much bertter

97th Regimental String band
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utLDfP4A3a8

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

Hey

Bri bri

New York
It is all he knows.

So did mother
give you her old apartment?

Bri Bri

Some people
get out in the world

Bri Bri

try it
you might like it

Same idea

Yankee version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ccQ6cT-9kk

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

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