Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Thanks to Ping Pong, AP and Jennbe for showing up last night at my Orlando speech (Jennbe drove 6 hours through a truck fire to get here -- WOW!). Glad we had some quality time afterwards with each other (and some great pasta).

Ah is this the first lister? possible wo ho

Barack Obama's disdain toward the voters of West Virginia illustrates why he will be flawed candidate in the November election.

Oh boy now it's the 47 state strategy

mags:

Obama is not an "elite" like 109M-dollar Clinton - and McCain - who has married into untold fortunes.

The Clintons AND the McCains have been living in the elite bubble of Washington DC - where almost everyone is a millionaire - and most haven't pumped their own gas in years.

Craig: As you know, Obama believes he can re-make the electoral college map. It might be interesting to discuss how he does that.
I am inclined to give him Virginia (although narrowly), but I am suspicious of some of his other claims. Running against McCain in the west might be an uphill battle...McCain not only appeals to Hispanics (and Obama does not) but he has a very good record with native Americans, a core Democratic constituency in several of the more rural western states.

56% of those surveyed indicate they will vote for Clinton compared to 18% for Obama. There are 26% undecided voters, according to the poll of 403 voters by Mark Blankenship Enterprises. Compared to a previous MBE poll in February, Clinton is up 13%, while Obama's numbers haven't changed.
In terms of the GE, Obama appears to have no chance in West Virginia while Clinton could likely win it:
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/18714764.html

LATimes GE Poll: Clinton Beats McCain By 9, Obama Wins By 6
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-poll10-2008may10,0,225570,full.story

mags:

And if we're trading degrees I have one in International Relations as well (and one in Philosophy - I figured one was for my professional life - and the other was for my personal life : ).

And I also studied the law and theories concerning use of force in law school.

And Foreign Policy is one of the primary reasons I support Barack Obama. And the main reason why we need to get a Democrat in the White House.

Back to the Grades - Craig A for theory and A+ when you connect WV withwhat BHO is doing to Florida.
Now that it does not matter (in his mind) gosh I welcome you..
BHO ; :WHERE WAS THIS MONTHS AGO..
Change Change everywhere the change

Just put your hands on the Change in your pockets

Warren - wealth and elite mind set are two different animals.
BHO well at some point have the wealth.
Right now he has the elite attitude.

Having Wealth does not make McCain or HRC elite attitude, hey look at Warren Buffet

nick:

It was based on a culmination of your work. And I sure as hell am not about to scurry back and cut and paste the evidence for you.

(I said my peace - no need to embarass you further.)

He prefers to avoid "clingers" whenever possible - they are not sophisticated enough for SNOBama.

Warren: I was making a comment about his speech pattern, not his origins. He sounds like a west coaster. Period.
And, he is not "from" Kansas. He was born in Hawaii and lived either there or in Indonesia through most of his life. His mother was from Kansas.
As for elitism...I didn't go there, but since you did...it's not about wealth, elitism is attitudinal.

nick:

It was based on a culmination of your work. And I sure as hell am not about to scurry back and cut and paste the evidence for you.

(I said my peace - no need to embarass you further.)

Posted by: warren | May 10, 2008 12:25 PM

and someone named a category of bullsh-t in honor of you

OK - so now people should vote for Clinton because she "promises" she will win West Virginia in the general election.

promise, promise, lie, promise, attack your opponent's ideas, promise, mis-statement, promise, promise, diminish and denigrate your opponent, promise . . .

That is "old Washington politics" and if it has not worked so far - what makes you think it will start working now?

LA Times/Bloomberg

Clinton beats McCain by 9
Obama beats McCain by 6

My first post....Thank you Ping Pong for inviting me to hear Craig last night. It was nice to meet Jennbe and AP, too! Craig, thank you for a great evening. The crowd was great and I can hardly wait to read The Politics of Life. Thanks for the dinner afterwards. (I'm eating my leftover pasta right now). Your parents are super people and I enjoyed meeting them. By the way everyone, many of Craig's former teachers came to hear him speak last night (his first speech teacher from middle school), a retired principal from our high school, and an 89-year old retired teacher from the district!! Take care!!!

warren: Well, we each take different lessons from what we learned in school and what we have learned in life. I guess I'm more of a Truman Democrat than a Jimmy Carter Democrat. I didn't vote for Carter and I don't much admire him. I do not think of myself as a person who welcomes or supports war (as I said, I think going into Iraq was not only foolish, it was immoral), but I am definitely not in the "can't we all just get along" school of thought.

Obama is the pyrite candidate...the 'powers that be' in the Democratic party could care less about more than half the party. It is about their choice and it make the democratic party seem, not so democratic. Who nees Florida, Michigan, West Virginia, typical old white woman or bitter voters, for that matter?

CAT:

Polls are not facts. In fact, polls regarding an election are almost entirely useless - except in the few days leading up to the actual vote.

Basing an argument on polls about an election 6 months away is a losing argument.

(Remember - Mark Penn was the Chief Pollster - and he is who ran the Clinton ship into the iceberg. All this "micro-targeting" divides people and leads to piece-meal solutions to complicated problems...like the "gas tax holiday".)

Blonde: Typical white women of a certain age. Let's be precise here. ;)

I am not a Jimmy Carter Democrat.

If anything - I am a Reagan-Clinton-Obama Independent.

Sorry for the typos..."it makes the democratic party seem not so democratic. Who needs"
But, I am ignoring letters the way the party is ignoring a large number of us loyalists!

Warren
Polls are facts. They are snapshots in time.
The history of elections in this country has followed certain patterns.

As yet you have shown no facts that indicate your candidate can remake the electoral college map.
No Democrat has previously won without West Virginia. You seem to think your candidate can but you offer no facts to support that.

Warren-That gas-tax holiday sure looks mighty appealing to people who drive 45 miles one way to work and can't afford to buy a nice little hybrid.
Do you know if Obama's plans include tax credits toward the purchase of hybrids?
One of McCain's advisors, former head of CIA under Clinton, is making the idea of plug in hybrids his life's work right now. IMHO this is one of the most important ideas out there right now.

I think most of us now realize and have accepted that the Democratic leadership have decided to go ahead and lose the White House to McCain in hopes of winning a landslide of down ballot races. So what does it matter if he competes in West Virginia - which he could lose by . . . triple digits . . . ok ok it won't be that bad - he'll lose by 25%-30% (even though ARG has him losing it by 40%).

;-)

Warren: If I implied I thought you were a Jimmy Carter Democrat, I apologize. My point is that I think Sen Obama is a Jimmy Carter Democrat.

warren: Not that I have yet heard Sen Obama claim that God speaks to him. That is one good sign. :)

"Oh boy now it's the 47 state strategy"

Dr. Dean's nightmare - you mean 57 state strategy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

;-)

mags:

You are probably a realist. Which is a good take on Foreign Policy. And so is Obama.

(Despite his high-soaring rhetoric - he is very practical and logical.).

I don't think isolating nations through threats and sanctions works well. Often broad sanctions can cripple economies - and hurt the people instead of the dictators. And when the economy goes in the gutter - the dictator wins even more support of his people - by relying on nationalism and blaming the US - not the UN.

And you know why countries are scrambling to get nuclear weapons? Because it gives them an automatic seat at the table. Under Bush, we only started paying attention to countries when they were thought to have to be close to having nukes.

I would rather sit down at the table with such countries before they get nuclear weapons - as opposed to after.

Zbigniew Brzezinski & Carter & Obama = ???

Wendy: I don't think the Dem leadership believes it will lose. They truly think that they can win and re-make the electoral map. You know how we liberals are...we think that if we can just explain our position one more time, everyone will be won over. And progressives are liberals on steroids.
What's sad here is that two political careers may well be ruined by this. Obama if he does not win, and Hillary because the real lefties will blame it on her. Funnily enough, a large part of the netroots were Naderites just a short while ago.

"promise, promise, lie, promise, attack your opponent's ideas, promise, mis-statement, promise, promise, diminish and denigrate your opponent, promise . . ."

Warren - so you do understand how Obama's mind works...

:-0

In group behavior, it is a classic to "freeze out" certain individuals. People so want to be loved and fed by the group that they will try even harder to become part of the group when rejected. I am sure the BHO campaign is so self-assured that they feel everyone will jump on the bandwagon for their candidate. The Senate and House dems have been impotent thus far and now they are attaching themselves to BHO. I agree with Wendy...I don't think they can pull this out in November. A lot will depend on McCain's choice of VP and he has the luxury of waiting until after the dem convention to announce the choice.

Maggisd - you're probably right - Dem leadership is probably more delusional that tactical.

LOL

OK - off to take mother-in-law to early Mother's Day lunch.

Give me a break on the gas tax holiday mags.

First - it was McCain's idea - not Clinton's.

Second, I have always said - I think that a tax break should be targeted specifically to working class people. Give them the break - instead of pass a "tax cut" that gives a break to people that were not asking for one.

So we take money away from roads and bridges - projects which give working class people work by the way - to make it cheaper for "elites" to fill up their Hummers, limos and 10-car motor-cades...

It is a cheap gimmick designed to win votes. And one this Country can not afford given the fact we are already spending money like a drunken sailor. (And Clinton supporters sure cared a lot about "experts" when they were saying the "experts" supported her healthcare plan.)

And by ending the war in Iraq - we can quit borrowing so much money from other countries - which is driving down the dollar. And don't you think a weak dollar has something to do with the rising cost of oil?

Warren: You said -- I would rather sit down at the table with such countries before they get nuclear weapons - as opposed to after.
If you were the one sitting down with some mid-level Iranians or the like, that would be good. I presume you know that Mrs Albright spent a good two years trying to reach out to Iran....even including some idea that had to do with the Persian rug trade. She was bitterly disappointed.
I am not in favor of sanctions either...unless they are broad-based and the government in question is at least quasi-capitalist (think South Africa).
But the vision Sen Obama is putting forward sounds to me as if he is proposing that we invite Hamas, Lil Kim, Akamadinner plate, et al to come to the White House.. or even worse that he engage in a world wind tour of a dozen places where ordinary American citizens are not welcome. IMHO this gives some truly evil people a status they don't deserve.
I don't think that order of high-level diplomacy is either necessary or wise. All it takes is the President saying -- if you want to use nuclear power peacefully you just have to sign on to the NNPT, abide by the protocols and know that if you develop a bomb, or if you use it, you won't survive it. Threats are not always a bad thing, although perhaps the word obliterate should be avoided.

Hey Folks it's all about Ohio.
If Kerry had won Ohio he would be president without carrying West Virginia. Of course the current polls and past performance don't look good for Obama in Ohio.
I'd be interested in hearing a strategy for winning there.

http://www.270towin.com/

Warren...we all get the fact that we are living on borrowed money...is the relief money we sent to Burma money we borrowed from China? Certainly the tax stimulus money is borrowed money. It is not McCain or Bush alone who have done this...it is our Senate and House (now in dem control). The war in Iraq is one piece of the pie and we still have to pay all of the money back! I agree that the continued voting of funding the war is so fiscally irresponsible.

As for the "57" state gaffe...Mr. Pyrite must have "lost his bearings!"

The Obama campaign has used the nuclear option on the Clintons and if I were the President and Senator
the Obama campaign would get no help from me. Including refusing to address the convention

Close-in supporters of Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign are convinced he never will offer the vice presidential nomination to Sen. Hillary Clinton for one overriding reason: Michelle Obama. The Democratic front-runner's wife did not comment on other rival candidates for the party's nomination, but she has been sniping at Clinton since last summer. According to Obama sources, those public utterances do not reveal the extent of her hostility.

Here's the thing folks. Michelle Obama kicked the campaign off by her one-time remark "How can you manage the White House if you can't manage your own house?" Although she then went on to talk about how she managed her own family, no politician not in a coma failed to realize that she had just articulated what the big-wigs feared most ... the GOP talking points against Bill Clinton back in the White House.

I hate to say this, because it sounds so ugly but, if Pres Clinton had not survived his bypass surgery, Hillary Clinton would have been the nominee by now.

maggisd

As I posted last night, Kennedy and company want to stomp HRC into the ground. Ignore her...there will be no VP spot, no Supreme Court nod and no repayment on her campaign debt. They want her to go away. The convention will only be about Obama.

WTF: Both the Obamas have made hundreds of very small, seemingly innocuous public comments designed to remind the political cognescenti of how the GOP would treat Hillary Clinton...and certain to anger President Clinton. In particular, was Obama's comparison of Clinton to Nixon in Reno more or less egregious than Clinton comparing Obama to Rev Jackson?

How is it wrong for the Clinton's to walk away when the Obama campaign and its supporters have denigrated them in the worst possible way.

Given what has been said, why would they want the support of people they find so horrible? I certainly would not want a racist endorsing my campaign not would I want the support of racists.

Obama just picked up another SD...it pretty much is over for Hillary.

WTF - very cogent remark. So I guess this really frees up all the typical white women of a certain age to vote for McCain?

PHEW.

News Corp. withdraws its bid to be Newsday.

Long Island exhales and resumes its dual life of North Shore beauty and South Shore glacial poop.

"All this "micro-targeting" divides people"

Warren -- Obama started that crap when he began dissing baby boomers....saying we were out-of-touch and "old style."

Then his Bamatrons started posting things like "STFU and Get Out of Our Way."

Do you not see how that might offend some of who had worked for over 4 decades to build this party? Especially given that many of the Trons were independents who never gave a flip for our party. Do you truly not "get" that?

Obama cannot just "pay off" Clinton's debt.
It would violate FEC rules.
She will have not problem raising the money to pay off the debt and can do it without Obama's help.

This is just more hooey from the Obama campaign as a way to focus attention on senator clinton leaving the race instead of on the primaries where she is about to win with enormous margins

"Blonde: Typical white women of a certain age. Let's be precise here. ;)"

To be precise - this is what the media and the Clinton campaign is saying - not Senator Obama.

(That is what happens when you get the "facts" from cable news and campaign spin instead of C-SPAN and PBS...and I guess NPR - but I don't listen to the radio much.)

Plus, there are plenty of old white ladies voting for Obama. Some are "hopeful" that he can achieve a huge victory for the civil rights movement, and some are cynical and "bitter" about the last 8 years under Bush and the GOP - and believe that Obama can bring a real change to Washington.

(btw, what do you think about Obama's idea to put more of Washington on C-SPAN - increasing transparency and getting rid of all the back room deals. Meanwhile, at the Clinton camp, Harold Ickes is coming up with arguments to overturn the results of the primary...)

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/05/obamas-change-means-losing-wv.html#comment-80214

OrlandoTeach, welcome aboard. So glad you're wading in. Sorry the pool is a bit nasty today. (Geez, folks, is the F-word really necessary???)

As I said last night. MIchelle Obama could give Lady MacBeth lessons in how to influence people.

Maggie and I are on the same page about politicians we respect and support.

NICK go back and read the last thread. If you did not type what is above your name, then you need to let Craig know because someone else was incredibly mean to Sheila just to start trouble. She aggravates me, but she didn't deserve that flare up or filthy expression.

I have to get some work done...I have only one vote in November (and who knows if that is really true?). I can't help shaking this sick feeling in my stomach that we have witnessed some brutal, back alley attack on a woman. I do not like how this has come down...same feeling I got election night when watching GWB storm off from dinner with Jeb when NBC announced that Gore had taken Florida. Sort of surrealistic for me.

Thanks all.

Blonde

The almost concerted attack by the top tier of the Democratic pary and the media against Sen. Clinton is enough to give anyone with a brain wondering if their tin hat is on straight.

It has been brutal and to her credit, she has withstood it all even in the face of foul mouthed accusations, snarky asides, and the incredible rudeness of Obama supporters and she has done it with grace and strength.

He may become President. If so, it will be the country's losss and a rotten shame.

"As yet you have shown no facts that indicate your candidate can remake the electoral college map."

I'll see your polls - and raise you actual votes:

Barack Obama Hillary Clinton

NC 875,683 652,824
VA 627,820 349,766
MD 532,665 314,211
WI 646,851 453,954
LA 220,632 136,925
CO 80,113 38,839
GA 704,247 330,026
MN 142,109 68,994

As you know, the Democrats have broken all records in terms of turn out and voter registration and have dwarfed the Republican total during the primary. Also, the "presumptive nominee" - for months now - is still losing votes to Huckabee and Paul. Obama will get a lot of Ron Paul's supporters - who are anti-war and pro-Constitution. Obama will even make a run at the evangelicals - who McCain is weak with.

Like O.J., Like Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsXVUlMqQs4

Obama is not an "elite" like 109M-dollar Clinton - and McCain - who has married into untold fortunes."

Sure quacks like one, acts like one, looks like one.... He is elitist. Remember the clinging to guns and religion statement?

I think I have to rehash a little to defend myself. I did nothing this morning to be treated so hatefully.

Nick, I hope someday you will come down from this high enough to see what you have been doing.

Ignore Button On:

Chef Sheila Hussein The Nun --------------------

I can understand why you don't want to read anything negative about Obama. That "can't we all get along" talk is thrown out in an effort to shut down criticism.

Posted by: GORDO | May 10, 2008 9:54 AM

You see GORDO? I was extending a hand. My hands are open. After you get tired of trying to divide all of us into what you really want. Get to know us.

We're pretty nice people.

Posted by: Chef Sheila Hussein The Nun | May 10, 2008 10:00 AM

reg. We're pretty nice people.
You could have fooled me.
Some of your posts sound more pompous and divisive than nice.
Somehow that vision of you holding out your hand to anyone with a different opinion is hard to see. I keep seeing a fist.

Posted by: n | May 10, 2008 10:12 AM

nick, the only thing I ever did to you was....nothing?

Must be because I am simply an Obama Supporter....But here is the difference between me and you as I can see. I am a Clinton Supporter too.

I am very interested in the long run. As in getting the country back on another track to correct what the republicans have done.

So if you want the republicans back in for more of the same, then you and I have a lot that divides us.

Otherwise, the only other thing that does is time....that is all. have a great day.

Posted by: Chef Sheila Hussein The Nun | May 10, 2008 10:44 AM

Sheila,

Why don't you BITE THE BIG ONE.

I AM NOT n

You've got shit for brains.
And don't direct your diatribe at me.

Posted by: nick | May 10, 2008 11:50 AM

MAXTRUE,

You have been very divisive here. I always feel threatened by the way you write about anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Why in the world would I answer a question from you that is tinged with sarcasm and scorn.....just doesn't make any sence. When you have shown me and the rest of your "supposed enemies" some compassion or sensitivity, then I will happily give you my opinion.

But as long as your opinions of me, my fellow supporter, or Obama himself are so dire, I don't feel that its in my best interest to answer you ever.

If you ever change your mind....well there is always hope. ;0)

Afternoon All! Made it back in one piece today in the normal 3 1/2 hours it should take to get home from Orlando. Got stuck in a crazy traffic jam going to hear Craig speak yesterday, the kind where people get out of their cars and hang out for 2 hours. When I finally got through it, it was truck that looked like it had been on fire on exploded... Crazy!!

Thanks so much Craig for making the night so enjoyable for us! It was great to meet fellow C-Listers Anon-P, Ping Pong and Orlando Teach. Dinner was great and we were able to hang with Craig's Parent's as well, who were a blast, you can definately tell where Craig gets his great personality!

Thanks again Y'all!

Barack Obama has planned a party to claim the nomination in Portland, based on his own campaigns measurement. He can say whatever he wants, but it's an insult to intelligence to believe it until it happens by the rules. As Howard Dean has said many times, MI and FL are going to be resolved and seated. Obama has now agreed with that position. Like it or not, the working number of delegates is 2209. There's not a rule that says if you get a plurality of the pledged delegates, you win.

The Obama campaign will declare that there's never been a candidate denied the election who had the most pledged delegates. True. But has there been a candidate denied the nomination whose had the most votes? I don't think so. But neither of those metrics matters. 2209, or whatever the number is after the resolution of MI and FL happens to be, is all that matters. Until then, we don't have a nominee.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/10/2525/43509

Nick

This is one of the reasons I'm opposed to people being able to change their identities. It is awfully easy to mistake one person for another. I know Craig wants to make it possible for everyone to comment easily, but it might be worth having registration at least for the duration of the campaign.

If we are going to separate someone's head from their body, they have the right to see who is doing the deed before the lopping takes place.

Nick,

If I thought n was you....well I am sorry for that, but I didn't say much that was mean or rude even to this N....just trying to have a preaceful morning.

I even said nothing horrible to you in return, but you, my blog fellow were pretty scornfull.

I really think you should calm down and don't take my words so horribly.

You could have said, "Sheila thats not me" and I would have appologised. In addition, even if if wasn't you, the post was still as nice as I could make it. So I am going to say, "Slow Down". I'm not your enemy.

9/11:

I fully agree with the sentiment in your 1:10 post.

Although I am not sure what this means:

"What is the best strategy for imposing effective regulations on a wide array of financial service industries to prevent them from using the next device never designed to be a financial instrument as one?"

JennBe

The group that got together in Vegas just adored his parents. I'm glad you go a chance to meet them

Lynn C

If I had anything of value to sell, I would do so to see Sen. Obama lose Oregon.

OD - get out there. We are depending on you now that they are at the 50/50 mark with the undecided. Throw in the margin of error and all things are possible.

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/primary-election-poll-results/oregon-democratic-republican-polls.html

Raise you Florida and Michigan Warren

And let's take a good look at the Democrats voting in every State so far including Michigan and Florida.

After Obama loses a few more primaries and the polls show him slightly behind McCain while Hillary is ahead, I suppose Obamniacs would rather lose come November than win. That's how loyal they are to victory.

Tell us Warren, would your parents ever associate with the likes of Ayers, Auchi, Wright, Khalidi, Meeks, Moss, Farrakhan, Lee? Do your Jewish friends consider Malley, Zbig, McPeak, Power, Rice really supporters of Israel as Hizb'Allah, Iran, Hamas and others Flex there muscles? Or are your Jewish friends atheists and more Leftist thinking?

And how do you feel that we let a detainee out from Gitmo who immediately went back to Syria and then Iraq where he blew himself up killing seven people and injuring dozens?

How will you feel when Iran advances nuclear weapons under an Obama adminsitration? Or does nothing as the government in Pakistan makes nice with terrorists? What do you think Obama's response will be as more top cops are murdered in Mexico, cut US military aid? Or what will he do as Russia sets up a sub base off Caracas?

What do you think when Obama says no one is a greater supporter of Israel? Please find the record to support that claim. How long will you go on believing what a politican says and not their record, history, freinds, mentors and advisors?

Obama will cut military expenses and has targeted missile defense. Now that is a brilliant idea as he has zero plans to stop the proliferation of missiles and drones which such defense targets.

Still you want to believe so much, that facts are unimportant. Even basic anthropological principles like altruistic punishment mean nothing in the face of NeoLIberal promises and retreat.

Please tell us how affirmitive action will be changed to allow for all people to benefit? Please explain the conclusions of Michelle's thesis. Please explain why anything Obama promises is based in record and historical evidence. Did he even blast Rezko over the housing Obama endorsed? Did he take money from Ayer's father to get started in Chicago as Ayers jumped up and down on the flag. Do you have friends like this, or is your Independent status really BS?

Until you answer these questions, Obama is an empty suit supported by people's faith in his marketing. The world cares less of form. It is the substance of policy and strategy that changes anything.

You don't know how absurd you sound at times requiring me to chastize others for calling you foul names -not that I don't understand the rage.

Craig, do you favor the House version that aids the exclusive and partisan media, or the Senate version of the Freddom of the Press Bill, which leans towards a more Constitutional take on new rights to include the "people"?

Ron Paul supporters will never support the NeoLIberal expansion of government and social programs raising taxes. Wake up. And evangelicals will never support a Church whose minister thinks Jesus was a Black Palestinian. You live in an incredibly delusional world Warren, and it's getting rather silly. You are a comical cheer leader with little regard for facts or history. The only thing Ron Paul really shares with Obama is his preception of Israel and his supporters questionable feelings towards Jews. Yep, RP has a lot in common with Obama.

Jennbee!

chefstonesheila at geemail dot com

I don't suppose you have da pictchas! ;0)

"The popular vote doesn't account for the caucus states"

Which is a major problem for anyone who actually believes in a democracy. Unfortunately, we are stuck with it providing a way to steal an election. Sen. Obama took advantage of the legalistic loopholes and Sen. Clinton failed to see it coming and defend against it.

The nation is probably getting what it doesn't really deserve because of the Caucuses.

"Both the Obamas have made hundreds of very small, seemingly innocuous public comments designed to remind the political cognescenti of how the GOP would treat Hillary Clinton."

As opposed to the outright and sometimes outrageous things that the Clinton campaign says about Obama - like he is dangerous and we don't want him answering the phone at 3:00 am, like Clinton and McCain are patriotic - but we will have to see about this Obama guy.

Or how bout when the Obama campaign says the Clintons will "say anything and do anything to win an election." Of course, the Clinton campaign screams bloody murder and claims how dare they question HRC's honesty and integrity.

Even though her supporters love her because she "fights hard", the majority of voters have issues with her honesty - and there is a videotape that proves she lied on 3 separate occasions to the American people. And then Bill Clinton inexplicably lied again to try and cover up for her.

Whatever Max.

It kinda sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
(Except I am a "comical cheer leader" and you are a "paranoid cheer leader".)

How does someone have a half of a Super Delegate?

I think we all agree the Democratic Party's complex web of rules is arcane and stupid.

Welcome OrlandoTech !!!

And excuse the rude behavior, very un Craiglister like but a few are still somewhat new to Craigslist. The certified Clisters will welcome you with open threads !!

Some of this other stufff phew stinks. But I like watching it as it reflects so well on the candidates they defend.

GO ORLANDO MAGIC - Take game 4 !!

Patsi,
What is title of second Loretta Book.I haven't been reading as much since I got this pc.I didn't realize I was in the company of all this celebrity.Country music has always been my favorite starting with Kitty Wells.I used to sing a lot of her songs in the local bars.Never got paid just liked to sing.lost my ability to sing in my early 40's.I have a large country music collection but listen to the 50's music in car on xm radio.

back to politics...How can Obama think he can be prsident when he doesn't even know how many states there are unless he is also counting the muslim countries as states.
Ruth

I apologize to our host for the unnecessary use of profanity.

My comments were directed to Warren who thinks he is above the rules because he thinks he is a better person. He should not believe everything he thinks.

Warren,

Thanks as always.

Mortgages -- prime or subprime -- only emerged as a billion dollar investment instrument in the 90's. They were never designed as one. And their failure was predicted not just after their great ascendence post-9/11 but during their first significant rise as the internet bubble burst only to be replace with an even more disastrous fraud.

All the same... the international banks and brokerages made it their business to buy up as many as they could...

And Bush called it his "ownership society".

Ha.

"Do you not see how that might offend some of who had worked for over 4 decades to build this party? Especially given that many of the Trons were independents who never gave a flip for our party. Do you truly not "get" that?"

Patsi. I get it. But what other choice did the Obama campaign have if it wanted to win the nomination?

If they were going to beat the Clintons - Obama could not just spend his time making nice speeches. He had to fight back. And despite how personal you may have taken some of the attacks made by either Obama or his supporters - it could have been far worse.

Don't tell me you don't remember all the pundits calling him weak for not going after Clinton sooner or asking why he was not more negative (they would all repeat: "it works"). Debate after debate - they were like c'mon - we want some blood!!

And Obama has not made any attacks that were harsher than what has come out of the Clinton campaign.

(And finally - when you have millions of supporters - there are always going to be some "nuts"....)

9/11:

You are talking about structured finance. Which is not a bad thing in itself. Using these financial istruments is a way to spread risk and create more liquidity.

And it played a big role in allowing a lot of Americans - who can and do pay the bills - to get money to buy a home.

Yes - it was abused. Like everything that is "new" - there is an information advantage to insiders. Often, this is exploited by greed just like we saw with the tech boom, the S & L scandal, etc.

The key is too eliminate the fraud - without eliminating the good aspects of securitization.

"Do you not see how that might offend some of who had worked for over 4 decades to build this party? Especially given that many of the Trons were independents who never gave a flip for our party. Do you truly not "get" that?"

"Patsi. I get it. But what other choice did the Obama campaign have if it wanted to win the nomination?"

He could have compaigned on issues instead of sleazy personal attacks. Now he has to reap what he jhas sowed. You can agree to disagree on issues but not on the kind of personal attacks launched or encouraged by the Obama campaign.

He is left with half a party. That may be what they wanted but it will make winning harder in November.

Instead of being a slam dunk in November, he will be eaking out votes in the rust belt. McCain will walk all over him the Western states that could be considered swing states and Obama is not going carrying either of the Carolinas or Georgia no matter how many times you post the primary votes. Not going to happen.

just ran out to plant a few more tomatoes.My husband tills one row at a time so now I have to wait for last row.We plant 44 plants.
Ruth

nick,
You could have simply informed Shelia that she was mistaken and that you were not "n". Instead you called her a shit for brains. And now you're trying to rationalize your bad behavior.

Man-up. Tell Shelia you're sorry. We'll all respect you more for it.

nick:

I did not appreciate your tone. I think your attack on Sheila was unwarranted. And I think my post was appropriate given what I was responding to.

"He should not believe everything he thinks."

Hah! Are you suggesting I should believe what you think instead?

(And I do try to curse far less on this blog than I do in real life. But what can I say - my mother cursed like a truck driver - and she hates when I say that ; )

Tim Potato And Chris Mathews were the ones calling for Obama to attack Hillary.She only responded to attacks on her.And then only after the press kept asking over and over and over.The press has picked the candidates for both sides.And a lot of good candidates never had a chance.Media is now a conglomerate and has too much control over what we hear and see.What happened to the laws that prevented ownership of more than one media source by any one organization..This country has gone down since deregulation.It was supposed to give us better choice and cheaper prices but all I have seen is rising prices and poor quality.
Ruth

Craig,

Sorry for not answering your thread before.

Why hasn't Obama been thick-as-thieves campaigning in West Virginia? Logic probably. its a fact that WV is very much Clinton's. Senator Clinton is one part of a team that have served WV very well over the years, Or at least this is what I am assuming.

Since the West Virginians are very loyal and traditional people (like Pennsylvania) , its just logical for Obama to very gracefully leave the state to Senator Clinton in the Primaries and then build a relationship for the next few months...IF he gets the Nomination.

I here Obamais Blanketing the airwaves and so its probably a better way of introducing himself.

Also makes sense to concentrate on the western states too.

Maxtrue:

I think you should change your screen name to fillibuster. Or how bout just "buster"?

(I know - another example of the pot calling the kettle black ; )

Hah! Are you suggesting I should believe what you think instead?

No I'm stating you should not believe everything you think. You might consider often you are wrong

As for the profanity. Your host asked you not to at least you use the f word and all you can do is offer up excuses for why you will continue. You are snotty human being with no manners and enormous sense of entitlement (entirely undeserved based on your performance here.)

I agree with you Ruth about the media. That is why I am happy we have the internet.

I got an e-mail yesterday about Cindy McCain.Apparently she belongs to an organization and gives money for the removal of land mines.Would be a much better first lady than Michelle.
Ruth

Like Shelia, Warren, you never answer the questions. They were straight forward. Would you ever make the friends that Obama did. Do they reflect your judgment and principles? Can you show me where it is proven that Obama is the pro_israel supporter he claims?

I gave you numerous examples. Are terrorists cover under the GC? Where should they be kept so they can't terrorize? When given fair questions you deflect.

Are you in favor of decreasing missile defense or cutting military aid to Mexico and Columbia? By what means would you change affirmative action in the way Obama panders? How could a Constitutional scholar support a total gun ban as did Obama whose memo are written right next to his answer?

The government in Pakistan has taken no hard role against the terrorist. Why isn't Obama calling on Bush to strike?

You refuse to answer these questions, though on occasion you attempt to which is more than Shelia does. And what is your response to my reasonable observations regarding Ron Paul? Aren't you aware that they would scrap the very programs Obama seeks to enlarge? They would cut the very taxes Obama would seek to raise? And that evangelicals do not support the Wright notion that Jesus was a Black Palestinian.

You post enough, so please don't say a response would tax your fingers. You post more all day than I do in a few threads. Use some of that energy to answer the questions instead of being a rabid cheerleader.

Or is that what Obama's afffluent, intellectual white supporters really do, while us illiterate hard working ones can barely scratch out a rational sentence?

Don't be bitter, just answer the questions.

Warren,

Well-stated, nicely informed.

I disagree with you because just as the banks and brokerages are being bailed out by the government at our expense, they will dig deeper holes for the world as they have much, too much influence over both the legislative and executive branches.

The issue is one of a sort of regulation that has not been seen for decades.

The only thing relatively free about our market economy is that is how the institutions which run it (amok) get off -- free, free, free..

And my source on that? Just now on the phone, former SEC chair Arthur Levitt, Jr -- who served WJC, grew to loathe him and Congress and exited with the reputation as "The Investor's Champion" (as opposed to, say, Robert Rubin).

Favorite line of the day: "He should not believe everything he thinks."

painter, Cindy McCain probably owns the organization. she's so super-rich she won't even tell us what she's worth.

Max, I like your long posts. Don't change, stay the way you are. If Warren thinks they're long, he doesn't have to read them.

You are an Obama cheer-leader......(sheila says) Why Yes I am! And I am also a cheerleader for my Country too....make no mistake about me.

You never reply with facts or rational counters. ........

(Sheila says) Why MAX, for the last year I haven't countered or argued anything MUCH and never for you or anyone else who is looking for a fight instead of enaging in a conversation.

The reason is that this place was very passionate even before YOU came. So I just don't discuss Obama here anymore. You mistake me for someone else.

You resorted in my case to call me a liar and that I'm a McCain man, a Republican. .......

(Sheila Says) I have NEVER called you or anyone a liar here. Not in my DNA.

Only such vilification is your response and that suggests the next step, calling those who support McCain, racists. Is that the discourse you have in mind?..........

LOL I am the last person to call anyone a racist on this blog. So please don't inject this in my wiritings. How crazy to suggest this and out of any context.

As a matter of fact, I have seen so many posts calling others racist for just NOTHING....NADA....this is a very hateful epithet and you using on me just proves my point.

I will not respond to you until you can come down from that hateful place you are.

Good Luck

BTW, Anon-P has been from the first. We all tolerate each other here. Craig's promise of Freedom of Expression is extended to AP too. Anon-P has become a dear friend. I respect him.

I' answer half the questions and he can take the rest.

Would you ever make the friends that Obama did. NO

Do they reflect your judgment and principles? NO

Can you show me where it is proven that Obama is the pro_israel supporter he claims? NO

That was easy.

Warren
I don't mean to be rude but since I am new here are you one person or are you just a name that Obama supporters are using to make his case.The reason I ask is because whenever i check this site you have a comment on to answer everyone at any time.And I know that Obama people are tuned to every station at all times and they are at the ready to call in to refute or complain any time a comment is made in the media.I have heard mant times when acommentator says something they then say Obama's people have just called and want us to stop what we are saying.Although I don't like Obama you have agree they have a real tough organization that has probably been planning this for a mighty lonf time.I just think they chose the wrong person at the top.
Ruth

From TPM

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/ickes_on_conference_call.php

Somewhat tantalizingly, Hillary also claimed that there were back-channel talks of some kind going on between the two campaigns, possibly about how to maintain Democratic unity after the primary. Asked by a super-delegate whether there were discussions going on between the two camps about what would happen after the voting concluded, she said:

"There's a lot of communication between both of the campaigns all the time. I don't know how specific it is, but we have very open lines of communication...I know that both Senator Obama and I are committed, and the campaigns are as well, to making sure that when this is resolved" we will do everything we can to "unify the party." She didn't elaborate further.

Gosh Ruth, You give us too much credit.

I will speak for Warren. A very passionate and articulate Obama Supporter who We actually let do our arguing. He's very good!

And thank Warren. I appreciate your seeing me as I am and coming to my aid. ;0)

painter, Would that make him a spy or a double spy.
Or is this just an inside job.
Did they recruit him or did he just volunteer.
Could you be wrong and he's innocent.
We won't know til he answers, i guess.

Wow 9/11! My hero! I'm so glad to see that statement surface. So glad Senator Clinton and Senator Obama are conentrating on Unity too. Whew!

911 There's a lot of communication between both of the campaigns all the time. I don't know how specific it is, but we have very open lines of communication...I know that both Senator Obama and I are committed, and the campaigns are as well, to making sure that when this is resolved" we will do everything we can to "unify the party." She didn't elaborate further.

I've been worried lately that she is just staying in this playing out the votes so her supporters won't feel she was ousted
and be very rebellious. But that worries me because that
would mean she's stringing us along and not being honest,
so I choose not to believe it.
I don't want to think they're already in the process of becoming the same campaign, and using psychology
on us.
I want to think she's trying to win for us.

nogrudge,

speaking from a long trail of campaigning behind me....believe me. NO ONE would go through all of this in public just to be folding in private. She really IS trying to win.

And Obama really IS trying to give her a good race and its all for you guys.

Sheila, Thanks.
I was looking for some encouragment, anything.

your welcome and I understand. its been a long race and to think its not over yet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/09/AR2008050902298.html
Quitters Never Win

later.

Well Shelia, your dear friend insults Jews and continues to provide extreme paranoia. I guess that answers whether you would have found any problems with the firends Obama made...LOL

You absolutley said that I would have never voted for Hillary which to all here denotes your calling me a liar in light of the fact I am a Hillary supporter. Does that escape you? If I said you would never really vote for Obama in the GE, wouldn't that mean I was saying you are a liar.

I didn't know that discussion in your eyes means not answering questions about Obama. Wow. I didn't realize that, and in the future I will not respond to your cheerleading because you do not wnant to be questioned about it. You want to cheerlead and let is just stand as that.

Okay, fair enough. I didn't understand your discursive position, but know I do. I took your refusal to ever answer my questions as an insult, but know I know better.

I never said you would call me a racist, byt merely suggested that if you could say I would vnever vote for Hillary despite my declarations, you might as easily say I am a racist. Of course I don't think you are a racist.

I guess the problem Shelia is that I state my positions which I know you disagree with, but because you don't want to engage me in a debate of facts, you are left to chracterize my remarks which I find cowardly. I understand now, why you just make snide remarks because you really don't want to get trapped in a battle of points and words. I see that it isn't cowardly, but rather your way to avid protracted fights.

So I will be nice and if you disagree with me, please don't impune my motives are suggest bad things about me, just accept that we as good people can disagree. It is you, not I who don't want to debate. So it is your burden to accpet my posts graciously while expressing that you disagree. And I will not challenge you because I repsect your right to stay out of the fire and frying pan. Okay? So let's just step back and agree to be friends.

I do think people's silence in regard to Anon is deplorable. Hitler gassed and killed millions. He invade his neighbors and sought to improsion the world in a madness based on white aryan supremacy. He tore up any vestiage of Constitutional Democracy and was a trulely sick individual who extreminated millions of my people, Russians, gypsies, gays, dissidents and handicapped. To compare this creature with Bush not just dmages the office of President, but insults the history of the world and makes us less discriminating in our understanding of poltics, policies and human pathology.

Everyone here in the name of civility and historical honesty should ask Anon to refrain from the constant extremism he displays when ever he is here. To tell me to lick the boots of my new fuerher makes me want to reach through the internet and choke him. Can you understand that Shelia? Isn't it time we return civility to the political process or do you accept Dexter's and Anon's comments. I spoke up for Warren on the last thread. Unlike Conyer's wife, acting like children will get us all nowhere.

h

Sorry for the rabid typos, but I was eating a hero, my apologies.

Everyone, stop... breathe and think! When we make our disagreements so personal we hurt not only ourselves and each other; we also hurt our chances to win in November. Yes we are upset. Obama people pissed at Clinton people; Clinton people pissed at Obama people. It hurts more for the Clintonians because it appears we aren't winning the nomination. Top it off, some Obama supporters are gleefully playing the "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" games we used to play in the playground around the time of Kindergarten. Some Clinton supporters are angrily attacking the Obama people, not only for the above mentioned reasons but also we feel a sense of betrayal and hurt. This is natural...

My advice:

1) breathe

2) try to find some commonalities

3) If we don't want Bush-lite II, we better start seriously thinking about what is at stake here.

4) stop using offensive monikers and language meant to hurt the other side. It doesn't help. In fact it makes it worse because we all get in this back and forth verbal assaults that grow with intensity and hate.

5) The Obama supporters need to stop attacking Hillary -- you know who you are.

6) The Clinton supporters need to stop attacking Obama - you know who you are.

7) Remain passionate, but do it in a constructive, rather than destructive way.

Slamming each other's candidates is only going to add gasoline to the fire and create even more division and anger.

I write this from Amsterdam because I am dismayed by the tone and the back and forth we are stuck in now. And yes, I've done my share in the past, but at some point we have to become the adults we are supposed to be.

In Unity,

ET

Attack the message if you want, but please let us stop attacking the messenger!

Lauging @ Eurotom, but in unity with your remarks. lol

Just remember this. With just passion and hurt on both sides, if we didn't peel off the layers so we could move on,

Well. the blog will implode if we don't.

So just fleck your finger tips, close your eyes and breath deep....."Nirvana"

Thanks Max,

And the answer I have for you is paitence to read Anon-P's body of work. He is talking about Bush and friends.

He is sincere in his love for country and his fear for this country too. Now there are a lot of decidedly Over The Top views on this blog, but like Craig has said.

All are welcome. In my three years here, I've learned many things.

But the most important is from Craig. Now matter how you don't want to understand something. Try because this is our blessing here.

Most of us learned the first year, that everyone has something to say if you are tolerant enough and this place teaches tolerance.

So my friend Anon-P is staying. Please try to look beyond and inbetween the lines. Afterall, isn't this what you want people here to do?

Understand you too?

"And finally - when you have millions of supporters - there are always going to be some "nuts"....)"

Warren, While this is true, it doesn't help when the candidate eggs them along with theme music "A B**** Aint One of Them" or "Brush It Off" (you can go find the lyrics to that filth on your own) or his wife implies blinding ex president's is a good thing.

When you thrown in that woman respecting piece of transh known as Ted Kennedy saying that Hillary's ideals aren't high enough .. rejecting Senator O become a piece of cake.

Max-buster:

"Would you ever make the friends that Obama did."

I would hope to make friends with far worse people. I think most people either need or deserve to have friends - no matter what - and often because of - some things they have done in their "past".

"Do they reflect your judgment and principles?"

I would say my closest friends do. My principle is to give everyone a chance.

"Can you show me where it is proven that Obama is the pro_israel supporter he claims?"

American's support for Israel is set in stone - so I am not swayed when candidates pay it "lip service". Obama has said all the right things to demonstrate that he understands Israel is our most important and loyal ally in the MidEast.

Mike D'Antoni said to be new head coach of Knicks.

MSG to be torn down by massive fan indifference AND a stunning lack of defense..

Isiah? You know we were kidding, right? Don't you? Don't you?

I want my Mark Jackson... I saw him first at the Garden playing for St. John's... I want my Mark Jackson...

Jamie:

I already know the lyrics to the "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" song. I like Jay-Z.

(FYI - Jay-Z supported Clinton at the beginning of this thing - and in the song - he says: "Ladies is pimps too", which is a pro-feminist position if you can get past the slang ; )

I like this song better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwoM5fLITfk&feature=related

Jamie says rejecting Senator O become a piece of cake.

We know so little about him, there is so little background to assess, we've found we have to judge him by his acquaintances and what we see isn't good. I really wanted to like him at first. Then he started those teleprompter speeches and gave so little substance that I found it impossible to be impressed. Then he started trashing Hillary, both directly and through surrogates. He brushes his shoulders off for his fans when he's talking about Hillary and they go wild. Since when does a Presidential wanabe try to be "cool". And then they literally bus the college kids in each state to their polling places. It just gets to be too much.

And when you think about it - "brushing the dirt off your shoulder" is a much less violent message than some of the rap songs - especially in the 90's....

Teddy is right, Hillary's ideals aren't lofty enough to be on the ticket with Obama. The foundation of his campaign is that this country is long overdue for a change in how politics how is done. Hillary is the poster gal for old style politics. It's time for the Mark Penns of the world and the people who hire them to move along

As opposed to the oil company money and lobbyists the Obama lied about.

....I didn't know I was going there, but I hope you appreciate my rabbit trail.

I think Hillary supporters cross the spectrum too. that is why this race is cool. rewriting all we knew to be true.

OrlandoTeach...

Just started reading the comments and saw yours above. It was also a pleasure meeting you. Craig's talk was interesting in how the different presidents ran for office and performed once they got elected.

His approach put everything into a narrative that clearly defined the promises and expectations of the voters and how it influenced each new election for our countries leadership.

He also gave what I felt was an accurate description of the current race between McInsane, Obama and Hillary.

Only time will tell what the next administration can or will do for our country.

God Bless.

bringing Republicans and Democrats together

Isn't that what Obama is always saying only he can do.

Calling Clintons racists, bigots, dishonest, saying they'll do anything to win, thats bringing Democrats together? That and much more has come from Obama's campaign.

Obama has directly criticized Bill Clintons administration as President over and over again. The only Democratic President we've had in many years, and he chooses to criticize him instead of going after one of the Republican administrations. Does anyone think this was not all meticuously planned?

How does anyone figure that Obama wouldn't do anything to be president?

Welcome Teach!

We may be a little rough around the edges - but there is often a better debate going on in here than you will on cable news.

The independents-folks like MoveOn, ActBlue, the netroots, etc... are being cut out or marginalized, whether they realize it or not (and I know that some don't.) Obama doesn't feel he really needed them (sorry MoveOn), and he isn't planning on giving them any real say or power.
http://agonist.org/ian_welsh/20080509/the_obama_squeeze

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-stoller/obamas-consolidation-of-t_b_100783.html

Sheila, no prob I'll get them uploaded and send out sometime tonight, when I get back from dinner : )

Jaime, Vegas sounded like it was a blast. You also would love to know how surprised I was last night at the amount of women who supported Hillary.

Warren, did love this weeks Lost? Do you think Claire is dead?

Maybe we should all think about a get together after the election! Some can celebrate, some drown thier sorrows, but atleast we'll be together!

May 10 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said he'd be willing to campaign jointly with Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, and debate him in town-hall style formats.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aHnMDXBhSBtY

Perhaps it’s this post. I wish I had time for the massive takedown, but after the trying to beat out the flames round the olive branch, I don’t have time.

Just let me juxtapose these a few paragraphs and, readers, maybe you can do the rest. There’s this:

You know all that old-style Washington politics preventing real change? As hard as it might be to handle, in a lot of ways he means that those of us who believe in partisan hard edged combat are part of an outmoded system. It doesn’t actually divide cleanly; old hand Tom Daschle is a key figure and likely to be Obama’s chief of staff, and Artur Davis is likely to be his Attorney General. These are old school Democrats, and Obama’s machine is full of the Congressional wing of the party that lost out in 1992 to Clinton and his people.

Surprise.

And then there’s this:

I’m curious about Obama’s governing philosophy, as that is where the Republicans are going to make their stand in 2009. Without traditional outside groups (and he doesn’t want them involved, witness his lobbyist ban in his new administration), Obama is going to be relying on the emergent networks that come from his campaign to buttress his priorities, but since we don’t actually know what they are, it’s hard to figure out what his governing strategy will be.

http://www.correntewire.com/your_band_sucks

I don't think she is. (at least not yet and who the heck knows ; )

But I did think it was a great episode. I always thought there was more to John Locke.

btw, I finally saw Teddy's comments on the VP issue. It is not as bad live - as it reads in a transcript.

But it was in poor taste nonetheless. But hey, Teddy plays "old school" smash-mouth politics. He is great when he is railing against the GOP - but his words are sharp.

And Ted Kennedy is not running for President.

(We all know how Teddy rolls - he took his nomination fight all the way to the Convention and then put on a show by disrespecting Carter. The nerve of that guy....)

Hello folks. Did I miss anything? I went to the parade today and I took over 50 pictures. I posted a few on my blog. The rest will end up in my slide show. One of the pics I posted is of someone famous. Well , most everyone here should know him.

"In other words put up or shut up. "

Sorry you idiot. Bush has already said You're With Us or Against Us --- Obama doesn't get to say it again, NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE WANTS TO. Obama -- Bush 2.

" plenty of old white ladies"

Warren -- you are a complete idiot. I have to wonder who raised you.

HRC's recent trianglation (sp):

Obama doesn't want to help poor people - McCain does not want to pay for it - but I have the "perfect" gas tax holiday. Talk about "polly anna"...

I tell ya - the pander on gas prices that really bothers me is Hillary's call to take oil out of the Strategic Reserve to lower prices at the pump.

It is one thing to stop adding to it - but to actually tap into a Strategic Reserve - in just an attempt mind you - to lower gas prices does not seem like a good call.

(But hey - she is pouring it on thick trying to win this nomination.)

Bye the way , (R) Pete Hoekstra walked past me at the parade and I heard some girl yelling "Boo!" It's kinda cold to do that at a parade , at least I think it is. Terry Lynn Land was there. I guess Mike Cox was there too , but I didn't see him. The biggest applause and standing ovations were for veterans and other men and women in uniform. Best "marching" for a band goes to "Saginaw High School". Best marching song goes to Zeeland High School for "Play That Funky Music". All the local tv anchors were in the parade as well. The parade lasted for an hour and 45 minutes.

Patsi:

A tough-as-nails hard-working single mother thank you very much.

You really need to chill.

If Obama's position are so transparent, what is his position on gun control? On medical marijuana?

Patsi:

She also was self-employed, then was a teacher and she spent years working with the developmentally disabled.

She has now retired with a part-time job in the garden deparment of Home Depot (for the benefits).

She also rides on the back of a Harley, lives in Georgia and voted for Barack Obama.

In other words - she is a white working class lady that supports Obama.

(And you are right I should not have used the charged word "old" - and for that I apologize. I wouldn't want my mom to be called an "old lady" either ; )

Sexism, to racism, to ageism - what -ism are we gonna hit next?

(but I do think it is better to talk about these things in public - not just in private).

I am off to eat some Thai food.

(Does that make me an elitist? ; )

"Someone on Tweety yesterday said that Teddy is stepping up to the plate at this time to take the heat "

Gee....and that's SO Teddy....to take the heat when it comes to a woman' s demise.

Two questions: How is it Obama is the candidate of change with the balls and chains of McGovern,Carter, Kennedy, and Kerry? Warmed-over! (BTW the comment Ted made about Hillary was really rude). And I'm wondering if the AA's in NC carefully reviewed the candidates positions before going for Obama. 92 percent?!! Thankfully race wasn't involved. Where would he be if 92 percent of the white pop. voted for Hillary? Enough with the racist comments.

"Patsi is not the one being abused, she's the abuser. "

Well, by Gawd -- the bitch spoke back to me and she deserved the slap I gave her. How friggin' DARE she hit back!!!!!!!!!!!!

Warren...

While you are out tonight, pop into a gas station and put some more air in your head. I just caught up on this thread and, based on your posts all day, I think you have a slow leak.

Nick......a honed adze is a happy adze.......

Oh Oh! New York Rough Housing Dem on the loose!

Here's a rap ditty for ya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDiKw9jxbM

Once again, for all who have been in the world long enough to know. This is about division of labor by sex. This country is patriarchal. Barack Obama was introduced to America at a crucial point in it's history. Three years before he announced his bid to run for the presidency against Hillary Clinton. We are not witnessing history in regards to Barack Obama. If you close your eyes, Barack Obama is just another man running for office. Hillary is true change. However, once again, the most qualified candidate is a woman and, once again, the position is being offered to an entry level male. I know you are all very smart folks. Think about it. Imagine it. What if there was a faction that believed only men could hold the office of president? How would you prevent Hillary Clinton? What were her strongholds? Now...go back. What was it about the primaries that gave Clinton the most trouble? If you look closely at the men that back Obama it will become clearer.

Woops! Thats living on Long island... lol

beatwork.....exactly........entry level male boosted above highly qualified woman..........(the media complicit......)

it's not fatal yet.......she's not quit. Barack simply hasnt won yet.

She's not quitting.....she's not a quitter.

anything else until he wins is mere conjecture or wishful thinking.

Slow leak indeed. Warren's post about going out to eat Thai food and wondering if it made him elitist was classic Warren. He's the master of clumsy self-congratulation masquerading as self-deprecation.

No, Warren, eating Thai food does not make you elitist. We really don't care what you eat. But pointing out that you're going out to eat Thai food and then wondering aloud whether it makes you elitist makes you a dork.

lol@LaL

And you know what does not get a lot of "play" in the media.

That maybe - just maybe - Hillary is not driven by blind ambition and is not a reckless pol pursuing a nomination she knows she can't win by using every dirty trick in the Republican play book even if it tears the party apart and sinks the Dem's can't miss opportunity.

Ever think Hillary - along with Bill - know exactly what they are doing. And it is tough sledding.

If Obama won this thing in New Hampshire and Hillary "gracefully" exited the race - we would have been in serious trouble in the Fall. The GOP would tear into Obama - claiming he was handed the nomination - (just like everything else in his life - spindrool, mis-info alert!!).

Obama and Clinton would not have had so many debates, And although the gossip was uncomfortable to talk about - there is no question both candidates imrpoved on the issues that matter.

And if we had that NH scenario - and if the Rev. Wright fiasco happended in October instead of before IA and NC - there could have been real trouble.

Clinton has been given the toughest job going right now: making sure Obama can withstand the Right Wing Attack Machine.

She is using most of the GOP's talking points - and like all talking points - they get stale.

So kudos to Hillary. In the face of deplorable behavior in the media and even by some colleagues - the Clintons soldier on - and continue to make the GOP's attacks - in order to build up Obama's political scar tissue, while also taking some of the sting out of them in the Fall.

Hillary Clinton is not doing what is "popular" or "graceful" - she is doing what is right strategically for the Democratic party. Obama has to defeat her - if he thinks he can defeat the Republicans in the Fall.

(So maybe the Dems can stop wringing their hands and clamoring about how HRC will destroy the Democratic Party and Obama will lose by 57 states to McCain.)

Sit back and enjoy the race. We are almost at the end peeps. It has been fun this far - and it will be over one way or another in June.

Heck - we have been fighting for months. And I do mind going one more.

I think Hillary is acting selflessly and noble.

(And you can tell that to that fat ass Ted Kennedy sitting on the sidelines and throwing in his two cents!)

Here is a very smart Republican, no matter of what you think of him personally. He has some interesting ideas which one should at least be aware of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfvl6vWZ9FA

He makes similar attacks on Bush as he has done for the last eight years. The point is that the Republicans are divided (there more moderate side winning out in the primaries) and the Democrats are very divided (there more Liberal side winning out in the primaries -or it appears they may).

I suggest the bi-partisan alliance of the moderate groups holds the key to getting this country back together. I will spare my comments on Obama for now, but although the video is rather long, try to understand the lofic of what Newt is saying and how it is so starkly in contrast to the Teddy, Obama, Durbin, Dean, Pelosi, Carter brand of Liberalism. The record shows that moderate Democrats working with a centrist Reagan and Moderate Republicans working with a centrist Clinton producued the most positive changes in the last forty years. It will be hard to say that McCain or Newt represent Bush clones or that Libertarians and moderate conservative, even Reagan Democrats are more likely to vote for the NeoLIberal wing than McCain.

So listen to the video and know what a good part of America thinks.....

And no, I won't be voting for Newt anytime soon, but he could find a place in either a Republican or Democratic administration.

Jamie. We are not giving up here in Oregon. It is a steep hill but we are climbing.

Today I went to telephone..so many volunteers , I went to Saturday Market and handed out literature.

Lots of nice people of all political persuasions..a few nuts just like we have here on the blog. I'vd noticed that when I"[m handing out literature or holding signs, people are aggressive and rude, especially when they are in a passing car. When there are several of us, the creeps get quiet. I think some use blogs like this one to seem bold. The usual suspects you know.

I'm enjoying this blog more since I decided to ignore those I don't respect here. I

I'm looking forward to a good win in West Virginia this week. Of course it will be minimized by the press and those who think we all just turn to our guns and religion. With me I guess it is just religion since I don't own a gun.

Age-ism, fat white guy-ism...

(I should know a little bit about Teddy since I am a fat white guy sitting on the sidelines throwing my two cents in. But things can "change" - and I am going to take Lucy for a long walk and cut out red meat for awhile ; )

Sheila and the rest who spoke up for me...

I appreciate your coming into the Lion's Den in my defense and you all do know how I feel and why so let me say a few things.

First of all I read all the comments from 3 pm yesterday to now and I must say even when there were no Obama supporters on for a great amount of time the Obama bashing never stopped.

Nor did the innuendo's or out right tabloid journalism or Republican Talking points. I won't post the link back to any of them because its not worth the time or effort.

Warren: I think you are one of the best and most considerate persons who has stated the case for Obama more eloquently than any of us else could. I do hope you continue to state those views with the same amount of passion that you have shown since you first posted here.

In one of those conversations with maggisd he said "but I am definitely not in the "can't we all just get along" school of thought."

We are not asking or say that. What were saying is you can not change the politics of Washington from the top down. It has to be changed from the bottom up. That means everyone who is tired of what our Government has done over not only the last eight years, but for decades needs all the people who do care about our country to force those who are suppose to represent us and not the Corporations held to account.

If we refuse to return them to office for not following the mandate of the citizens they will work across the aisle or be put to pasture.

Then there was this from Blonde wino "It is not McCain or Bush alone who have done this...it is our Senate and House (now in dem control)."

Yes the Dem's are now in control and truthfully they are a big disappoint. However, that don't change the fact that they have only been in control for a little over a year and a half. The Republicans had control the rest of the time and they are the reason why our country is in the shape its in now.

Those are just two examples of the many that I see as making excuses to not even want to come together for the sake of our Nation.

Now Max.

I do not disrespect those of Jewish Heritage. I try to Honor them for what was done to them. You speak that I don't know history and I may not have a degree in History, but I am of German descent and have heard stories from children of Nazi survivor's.

I strongly believe that our Nation was built on equality for all its citizens no matter what their race, creed, color, gender, religion or sexual orientation is.

I strongly believe that all children should be taught to use what God has given them {a brain} and not go to school to just learn how to pass a test. The teachers should be teaching them how to think and use that brain for the betterment of themselves and others.

I believe that we as a Nation should see that all our citizens should be able to have medical care if they need it.

I believe that we should have a immigration policy that works to make everyone not only proud to be an American, but learn our language, history and at the same time honor theres.

I believe that no one religion is the true religion, even though I consider myself a Christian. I do not have the right to tell those of other religions or those who have no religion that there religion is false and only by converting to Christianity and accepting Jesus can they be saved from damnation.

I am more open to saying to those whose religion is different from mine that if they want to learn about my religion I would be happy to talk to them about it and why it is the religion I choose.

I believe that no one has the right to shove there religion or morals down anyone else's throats.

I believe that no nation, us included should allow any kind of genocide to be committed. I do not believe that we should go to war though to stop it unless it is done on a world wide basis with world wide support. There are other means to try first and than and only than should we ever go to war.

The excludes a country declaring war on us first, then we should defend ourselves.

I believe that we should not be the policemen of the world, but should take care of our citizens and country first, not second, third or even fourth. It is fine and noble to give to those countries who need help as long as we take care of America first.

This does not include illegal wars and Crimes Against Humanity for a countries Resources like we are currently doing in Iraq for their Oil and Gas Resources.

Max you say you don't want to see our troops die in vain while they continue to be maimed or crippled for life while we ignore them when that happens. Or those who commit suicide because our country refuses to Honor their service and sacrifices they gave to America.

Can you tell us if those who gave there lives in Vietnam died in Vain? And if they did was it because we left too soon or to late to save many of those lives lost. I still hear how we could have won if only we hadn't left. How many more lives will be lost in Iraq and how many more crippled and maimed should we be willing to accept?

Should we therefore pull all our troops out now and lessen the tragedy that our troops and their families are going through? And if we do pull our troops out do we then turn the whole middle east into glass? That is what you seem to be promoting all time.

I believe that Obama can change the direction our country is heading and I do have faith he can accomplish it with the help of all American citizens other wise we as a Nation are doomed.

If you think that the past eight years are that different than how Hitler took power and ended up destroying Germany than maybe you better take another look at history.

Hitler did it legally just like Bush has done. Put in lawyers that would give him legal justification for what he was doing by removing those who would not. Putting in judges who found what he was doing legal like Bush has put in judges to find what he was doing legal.

Stripping away our rights under the Constitution with those laws and signing statements. And yes there are those Democrats who enabled the Republican Fascist Nazi's in that effort.

I said before the 2006 election that the MCA of 2006 should not have been passed because it gave the President the power to label anyone a Enemy Combatant including American Citizens and stripping them or their rights under the Bill or Rights and Constitution.

I also said that no President, either Democrat or Republican should ever have that power, but 7 Democrats and one Fascist Nazi Traitor Judas Lieberman who is Jewish voted for it.

And the thing that bothers me most is the fact that there our those of Jewish Heritage who have no problem with supporting the very same policies that Hitler used against them and their ancestors. And that includes Torture.

This is not what America was built on or what America was. That America is long gone and we are only living under the illusion that we are still a Democracy.

I still think elections will be canceled as even if the Democratic Party should come together that very law, the MCA of 2006 could be used against this whole administration and those who have served in it and left and those still in it could be held accountable under that law.

Do you believe that Bush would put his freedom at risk by allowing any Democrat to win the Presidency and use that power against him? I don't think he would, but then I wear a tinfoil hat and what do I know.

Well let me get off my horse now and just say to all of you that if you still believe in what our Forefathers gave us than you will stop trying to destroy both candidates and pray I'm wrong. Come together in November because if we don't than our Nation is truly lost forever.

God Bless.

Hey Lard.......let's us buy us some brogans and head on up there for a look-see.......I heard all the hotels got flying jennys where the front doors are sposed to be......

It's going to be a lot of fun watching Nancy and Obama working together next year, lots of good things are coming down the pike, we should all be very happy!

Our soldiers will soon be coming

The work of getting every American getting health care will get underway in earnest.

Our govt. is going to have real commitment to weaning us off of fossil fuels.

The absurd tax policy of the Bush years will be fixed.

A president who actually knows and respects the Constitution.

And so much more. Why aren't you people thrilled?

And I am Marie of Roumania
---Dot Parker

Sounds like pie in the sky and rainbow stew to me.
---Sturgeone (with help from merle)

Sometimes I Rhyme Slow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myqQGg_s-Pw

George HW won in 1988 without WV, as did Nixon in 68.

Lardass:

I ordered in and me and Lucy ate in the living room watching TV.

I would hardly call that bragging.

President Clinton to visit Oregon again..

Scheduled apperances:

Pendleton, Madras, Baker City..more announced later.

By the time the election is done, President Clinton will have been to cities I've never seen..and I was born here.

Senator Clinton expected back again after West Virginia.

CHARLESTON, West Virginia (CNN) — Barack Obama is coming to the Mountain State.

The Democratic presidential frontrunner is campaigning today in Oregon, which holds its primary on May 20th.

He's off the campaign trail Sunday for Mothers Day, but expect the senator from Illinois to come to West Virginia at the beginning of the week.

Rival Hillary Clinton made campaign stops in the state on Wednesday and Thursday and is scheduled to return tomorrow and Monday. The Senator from New York is favored to win Tuesday’s primary.

She leads most polls in West Virginia by thirty to forty points.

Twenty-eight delegates are at stake when voters go to the polls in West Virginia. The state’ s primary is semi-open, which means that Democrats and Independents can vote in the Democratic primary

"He's the master of clumsy self-congratulation masquerading as self-deprecation."

It got George W. Bush elected twice - didn't it?

(I think Reagan was pretty good at it too.)

but reagan and bush were/are gop jerks.

sorry......i meant to say:

Yeah, but...............reagan and bush were/are gop jerks.

Glad to see ya around, 9/11.

I watched Ann Coultergeist on C-SPAN from 2006 or so talking about Godless. In addition to hardly believing that she's, as House might call her, a "cut throat bitch", she has the most arachnodactyly fingers (spider fingers). I think she has Marfan's.

tt

Pistons win! 90-89! Red Wings ahead 2-1!

Pistons win! 90-89! Red Wings ahead 2-1!

nick......yep.....mine's got little worm holes all in the handle.....afraid to use it but dont wanna lose the ancient handle.............

LOLOLOL Golly TT, " I think she has Marfan's" Soooo funny!

Corey...the series is officially over now, but don't rub it in. Dwight Howard just didn't show up tonight, when we needed him most.

Hey Lardass - I am off to walk the goose. I will look for a gas station.

And I usually just tell people of my comings and goings - so that someone does not think I am ignoring them.

(it helps make it quite clear when I actually am ignoring someone ; )

And to all - keep fighting the good fight!!

Sorry LL. I just thought it was safer to post about sports. LOL!

ignore-ance is bliss......

Sturge , Reagan and Bush were/are two term GOP jerks. Scary , huh?

Corey.......I'm with AnonP......it's a hell of a lot worse than scary.................

Corey........I got in a "Yeah, but...." Did you get any "And's" in yet?

Corey...don't sweat it. The Magic absolutely deserved to lose the way they played most of the second half.

What's also sad is how during the parade today , the Ottawa County Republicans float went by and the names of all the Republicans who hold office in Ottawa County were on it. Not to mention all the Republicans who were walking in the parade. Pete Hoekstra , Terry Lynn Land etc...Then the Ottawa County Democratics float passed by. All they had was one guy walking behind it who was running for office. No elected official in Ottawa County , I think. The only Democrat walking in the parade was Senator Carl Levin. I have a pic of that.

an alz-hammered actor and a scatter-brained punk kid who thinks he's a cowboy.........if that aint scary, what is?

Oh Anon, you start your reply sounding as though reason has returned to your cranium. But soon comes forth the unfounded claims;

"This does not include illegal wars and Crimes Against Humanity for a countries Resources like we are currently doing in Iraq for their Oil and Gas Resources."

Prove that a single member of Congress has evidence that invading Iraq was illigal. And if so, then why has SCOTUS not ruled it was such? Because Bush installed his Nazi judges? Prove we have stolen Iraqi oil and did not in fact stop the oil for food scandal that made millions for Mr. Auchi who has given millions for Rezko to distribute to political hacks in the State of Illionois? Why are you not crying for the poor people of Iraq under Saddam and those that made billions in scamming them? Unfounded and ungrounded.

"Can you tell us if those who gave there lives in Vietnam died in Vain?" Yes. And many millions more died after we left.

"I believe that Obama can change the direction our country is heading and I do have faith he can accomplish it with the help of all American citizens other wise we as a Nation are doomed"

And no other person can lead us to the promised land? We are doomed if we don't follow Barak? America's future rests on his shoulder's?

Now as a person of German descent, I am saddened by your utter ignorance about your country of origin's history.

"If you think that the past eight years are that different than how Hitler took power and ended up destroying Germany than maybe you better take another look at history."

No, Anon, you had better take another look. At first many Germany religious leaders opposed Hitler. He had them removed. Has Bush removed religious leaders? Has Bush replace military leaders with those who answer to him directly? Has he set up an inernal security sytstem that answers to him directly and is not controlled in way by Congress? Has he had his secret police murder people? Has Bush printed literature calling for the final solution? But of course the reasonable people here ought to stand up and correct you. Yes? You think we don't know what Hitler did to consolidate his power and make his tenure permanent?

"Hitler did it legally just like Bush has done. Put in lawyers that would give him legal justification for what he was doing by removing those who would not. Putting in judges who found what he was doing legal like Bush has put in judges to find what he was doing legal."

The comparisons are absurd. Bush has been investigated. The Press and media keeping their Liberal eyes on every move. The SCOTUS has ruled on what was Constitutional or not. Did the German SCIOTUS dod that? The NYT revealing what in Hitler's time would have had the editors vanish. The comparisons are utterly absurd. And Bush hasn't done a single thing in an effort to purge all but his elite from power, to round up and exterminate Jews, Gypies, Homosexuals and the handicapped. Has Bush confiscated propety of non-citizens (which Jews were). As a person of German blood are you utterly ignorant of your own history that you dare to compare YOUR madman with Bush and believe such comparison is remotely credible? You compare German in 1937 to America? Take a good hard look at what your anscestor Fuerher actually did. The complete and utter horror. Learn that first and the complicity of the German people before you compare Republicans or the Bush administration to YOUR ghastly horror that slaughtered millions of Russians, and Poles, Jews and others.

"Stripping away our rights under the Constitution with those laws and signing statements. And yes there are those Democrats who enabled the Republican Fascist Nazi's in that effort."

Again the gross mischaracterizations. Where are the concentration camps? What incredible plundering of our Rights and Liberties? Signing statements have been made by many Presidents and comparing them to the orders of the Third Riech is garbage. It does make it even worse given your heritage that you say these things. It is, Anon, even more insulting. You ought to know better. J

ust a few months ago a detainee was released from Gitmo. He traveled to Syria, not to a US base or an American tourist spot, but to Northern Iraq where he followed his orders and blew himself and seven other to death. Terrorist are not legal enemy combatants with rights covered under the GC. And that gets us to your next profound idiocy.

"I said before the 2006 election that the MCA of 2006 should not have been passed because it gave the President the power to label anyone a Enemy Combatant including American Citizens and stripping them or their rights under the Bill or Rights and Constitution." T

his is hardly like the powers Hitler enjoyed. It passed because of the need to stop terrorists in an age of weapons of mass casualties. Where are all those American citizens you predicted would be rounded up" Where are all those carted away as though Congress or the American people would ever tolerate the abuse of such power as the German people did because of a madman and the failure of their own Constitutional process?

"I also said that no President, either Democrat or Republican should ever have that power, but 7 Democrats and one Fascist Nazi Traitor Judas Lieberman who is Jewish voted for it."

How dare you call Lieberman Judas. How dare you accuse him of being a Nazi traitor fascist. Who the hell are you? It is not that you disagree with him but use this forum to spew such inflamatory anti-Jewish bullshit. Obviously the people of CT are worse than those in Germany that hailed Hitler. Speechless, just totally speechless.

"And the thing that bothers me most is the fact that there our those of Jewish Heritage who have no problem with supporting the very same policies that Hitler used against them and their ancestors. And that includes Torture."

You are crazy. You compare American Jews to the Germans who enabled Hitler. You compare what Hitler did and the torture, experiments, exterminations by cremation and gas in the same ball-park as YOUR mad and sick leader. I see through your crap Anon.

So instead of coming here and apologizing for your gross comparisons, with Bush leaving office in several months and nothing remotely ressembling the :"NAZI EXPERIANCE" happening to America, you have the balls to continue to spout your deluded rant about HitlerBush. and dare show contempt for Jews should they offer any support for the President you call Hitler. You are mad. It is rather embarrassing I think to all who post here, not that you have an opinion, but that you express them in absurd insulting terms, mocking reason and Jews, the history of American politics and our Constitutional Process. The manistream media which is very liberal, the Congress and polls from across this country do not support your insanity. Even Obama would denounce your characterizations. And what is worse is that as someone of German descent, you fail to grasp the real horror and history of your own cultural past. If you understood how Hitler really emerged, what he did, what he wrote, what he believed, you would never utter such bombastic and calluous. claims.

I have now even more contempt for you now than I did before. And I am sure you will never admit you were wrong. You are another reason why Liberals should take a good look at many who support Obama.

they better be careful........they might just lead the democrats into a brokered convention.........

Maxtrue...

I stand by what I say and there has been no investigations since everything is considered secret by Bush. And there are plenty of camps built by Haliburton under the guise of holding illegal aliens. And they have train tracks running along side of them.

And not only were German citizens complicit but so are all of those here who turn a blind eye to what has been going on and refusing to acknowledge what is happening.

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong and you go on believing what you will about what I say and what I am. I really don't care.

And by the way there is also a law that allows Bush to seize your assets on the books now as well. And it will be used one day like all the rest of the laws he got passed.

They are all War Criminals and even if they passed the law giving them immunity under the American Wars Crimes Act they are still liable under International Law which we signed and is a part of our laws Guilty of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.

You also keep forgetting that the chemical weapons Saddam used against his people and the people of Iran we sold them. So are we not also responsible for selling them the very chemicals that he used? You sure don't seem to believe so. And its a lot of the same people that are currently in this administration or have left it.

Call me what you will, but it sure seems that our Nation is already lost since Americans want to do what the Germans did by turning a blind eye to events as they happened around them.

So BO is willing to do unmoderated debates etc with John McCain. If that's true, he should have agreed to have some with Hillary. At least it would have given BO some practice in the format.

Max...I agree with everything you just said. AP's Hitler comparisons are so tiresome, I gave up protesting long ago. But it's good to know some folks here still have the energy to weed the garden.

AP...you should actually read up on Hitler a bit more before you start comparing people to him. Start, perhaps, with becoming an expert on the life of Frederick Barbarossa -- he is the 12th Century German King who was Hitler's hero and whom Hitler obsessed about. Then maybe cue up some Wagner operas and let your mind wander. Then think about Zyklon B, and what it meant. Then read Norman Mailer's "A Castle in the Forest." Then come back and talk. Because none of that shit has a damn thing to do with W and what is going on in this country right now. You should pick another tinhorn dictator to compare him to...like maybe Augusto Pinochet or Raul Cedras or even Benito Mussolini. Comparing him to Hitler is too easy, and dilutes the power of history, as Max pointed out.

I can't imagine you'd actually do all those things, by the way. But please try. It would help the rest of us.

"On behalf of millions of Clinton supporters who have made it very clear that we will vote for a cockroach before we vote for Barack Obama...We will collectively do everything in our power to see to it that... the fraud who has already set gender and racial relations back thirty years, goes down in flames in a big way. And there are millions of us. Millions. The kind of millions that brought his type down before from the voting booth.

Our goal is to make Barack Obama lose by an even bigger margin than George McGovern, and he got 38% thanks to his ill-behaved savage followers. And you guys are worse! And George was actually a gentleman with some brains, unlike Barky Obama."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/10/let-me-explain-to-obamazoids-why-we-dont-care-to-hear-from-you/#more-2461

anon can speak for himself, of course, but i think what he seems to be saying is that a control group is using techniques perfected in germany in the lead up and during ww2 to try and acheive many of the same types of control and goals.......they hope they've improved on the model so that there are no "glitches" this time......such as being defeated in battle by a coalition of strong democracies......etc etc along that line......it may seem bizarre in many senses, but he has strong evidence for much of it...........

it gets lost in this "doesnt compare to hitler" thing.

AP...

Adolph Hitler was a very particular and singular monster in world history. He actually was enough of a monster to make a contemperaneous monster like Joe Stalin look like a member of the JV squad.

Bush and Cheney, et al, wouldn't even have survived the freshman tryouts with those two.

Many of the points you try to make in comparing Hitler to things about W's regime are overkill -- because the tendencies of W and his gang are pretty generally shared by any number of autocrats throughout world history. Point is: No one is trying to let W off the hook. It's just that you don't need to compare him to Hitler to make your points. It just makes you look unimaginative.

the control group being fronted by NeoCons and their PNAC......w isnt a monster and doesnt compare in any meaningful way to hitler......he's just the organ grinder's monkey.....every organ grinder needs a monkey.

On Fox News now - Obama's new problem - Rev Otis Moss III

What did the beatnik say when he saw his neighbor barbecuing a chicken on a spit?

"Hey man, your organ's broke and your monkey's on fire....."

c. 1958

Sturg. Exactly. He's an organ-grinder's monkey. So why compare him to Hitler? Hitler was anything but that.

That's what gripes me. Let's figure out a new language to talk about this shit that's going on. The Hitler comparison is just too knee-jerk, and it leads nowhere.

anon can speak for himself, of course, but i think what he seems to be saying is that a control group is using techniques perfected in germany in the lead up and during ww2 to try and acheive many of the same types of control and goals.......they hope they've improved on the model so that there are no "glitches" this time......such as being defeated in battle by a coalition of strong democracies......etc etc along that line......it may seem bizarre in many senses, but he has strong evidence for much of it...........

it gets lost in this "doesnt compare to hitler" thing.

Posted by: sturgeone | May 10, 2008 8:58 PM

Sturg,

Very astute my friend.

Anon-p's Novelas may sound a bit strong, but over the years he has been talking it and comparing and showing us what he ment.....well.....Bush's agenda certainly looks like if was taken out of the book of How to be a Nazi.

or is he an obvious repug plant sent to drive folks away from hillary?

Or is he simply showing what the gop is going to do to barack?

questions, questions, questions..........hard to see thru the fuzz aint it..........

and then my captcha says......"KKK"

oy.

Sheila...I bet if Hitler himself was on this blog, you'd be "nice" to him just to make him feel included and make yourself look inclusive. But of course, you'd also then go behind his back and trash him when you thought he wasn't looking.

a coalition of democracies with a strong communist oppressive regime thrown in, of course........

I was reading an Article from the BBC News Website....wish I would have saved it....

But anyway. The article in short was about the legislation that went through the Hill in 2006 that added protection to the people who had authored the acts of torture for the US and the people who had applied and carried it out. The legislation was protecting all of these people from prosecution.

But the article said that the legislation was not valid once these people left the US for other parts of the world.
So we could ver well have people arrested for war crimes someday.

It was a very enlightening article.

LL....?

Sheila...I'm just trying to stamp out the dumb Hitler comparisons that proliferate here. So I made one of my own!

....Well Lard, its a tuff job being and Obama Supporter. All the misinformation that comes out of the mouths of people who feel threatened.

But someone has to be crusified for the enjoyment of others on a daily basis....I mean I'm only doing a service for all of you because I care. ;0)

maybe he's an obama plant sent to galvanize the faithful around barack........perhaps in concert with other operatives of different stripes........

ya know........he could be dang near ANYthing........

guess I'll look at his links and decide.......as long as he's not nasty, I mean.........

In reality, I have been off by Hitler because I don't have the ability to keep my mouth shut against people who are just bad.

When I did SERE training in the service, in the simulated POW camp, I could watch them beating a shipmate and and screamed at the trainers. I was off'd and failed the course. LOL

Climb down off that cross, Sheila! Obama is winning, isn't he?

I believe the comparison's of Bush to Hitler are too strong. We will have to let the historians decide Bush's legacy. And much will depend on what happens going forward (even though like everyone says - no one is letting Bush of the hook - and I think right now it is safe to say that Bush made critical mistakes - but he was not a malevolent dictator.)

Hannity is quoting the National Review calling Michelle Obama "America's Unhappiest Millionaire".

Good for her that she doesn't think money solves all problems. I suppose Hannity would prefer she acted a glib as Donald Trump or Simon Cowell.

What an ass! And he sure seems pretty unhappy all the time - and he is a millionaire.

Correction.

I COULDN'T watch them beating a shipmate and and screamed at the trainers. I was off'd and failed the course. LOL

Sorry lard,

I am who I am. Get used to it.

Off topic because I haven't had the time to read: sorry.

Two days ago, I was a victim of government intimidation and abuse of power. A personal message from our Law Director was delivered to my by two plain clothe detectives. They threatened me. It was very intimidating and scary. Caught me off guard, and traumatized me , because I thought they were coming to tell me my Husband had been killed or something horrible.

Anyway, I have retained counsel. I can't talk about it, but if this ever happens to you, you will understand, just how so many feel that are treated like this all the time.

This has really opened my eyes to just what power really looks like......and it is not pretty.

Carry on........ : )

Thanks for the head up G-man.

And that Kirsten Power is quite a looker. Wonder if she is single... Nothing like a Right Wing hottie to debate with.

I am off to do some drinking. It it a nice night out in NYC.

Later on.

sturgeone --------------------------

Try this link - very good article:

Democratic Elitists And Their Role In Hijacking The Democratic Party!

http://politicallydrunk.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-american-disenfranchisement.html

Okay, folks, here is a handy-dandy guide that everyone can use in their day-to-day lives to help them figure out who's Hitler, and who's not:

--You see a guy kick his dog. He's not Hitler.
--You see a guy yell at a Burger King cashier because she didn't give him enough ketchup packets. He's not Hitler.
--A guy flips you off in traffic after you cut him off. He's not Hitler.
--Your boss fires you. He's not Hitler.
--You see your Dad make your baby sister give him a blowjob while he's brushing his teeth while getting ready for bed. Still, he's not Hitler. Sorry.
--A total incompetent who is controlled by unseen forces becomes the nominal leader of the most powerful nation on Earth. Still, unbelievabley, that doesn't make him Hitler.

Okay? Does everyone get it now?

Hitler was Hitler. Now, STFU!!!

Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsten_Powers

(Sorry Kirsten - she is a Democrat too.)

I am not prejudice against elite people, are you?

They are just victims of their environments, like the ghetto's but oh so different.

Sheila. Don't worry. I'm definitely used to it.

Thank Lard!

Burrito, I'm so sorry, what in the world happened.....

Bush's agenda looks as if was taken out of book How to be a Nazi?

You still don't get it. Where does Bush advance the idea of a singular race to rule the world? And how is the DOD is anything like the system Hitler had? In a million places media the DOD even the IC would leak like a sieve. Republicans would abandon Bush like rats on a ship. Does anyone here bedises LL understand Fascism? Bush/Cheney haven't tried to create a singular cult to control our government. Sure they sought to consolidate decison making and exclude Democrats. Hell, so did Reagan. The decisions the Republicans made to support Bush policy were based on calculated political outcomes, not because their lives were threatened. The Nazi comparison is so overblown as to be destructive discourse as LL says.

And then the matter of Anon's anti-Jewsih remarks. I won't even bother to go into that can of trash. Bush was never more powerful than Congress or SCOTUS. He could have never weathered rebellion in the DOD. He ran into road blocks over Miers and Gonzales, even over water-boarding and Anon has the nerve to bring up Hitler? Nazi prisoners would have preferred water-boarding.

Obama supporters tolerate this mindset because it is part of their concept of unity. Let's unite fruits of all colors.

I'm not picking af ight with you Shelia, just noticing how NAZI does creep even into your comments and you ignore Anon's Judas remarks. God forbid Hillary call Richardson Judas, all hell would break out. What Obama supporters will tolerate within their camp is far from what they will tolerate in others. Hagee say mean things about Catholics is a no no, but Wright say GDA and well, that's understandable. And Moss defends Wright, so Obama has once again continued to keep himself in the fire as not to alienate other furits of his coalition.

You call them Novelas. I call them paranoid delusions and despite the hysteria over the police state the Left predicted Bush would turn America into, it has not happened, has it? In fact as Newt says on the video, UPS can track millions of moving objects and Homeland can't find 20,000 stationary targets. On one hand the Left accuses Bush of trashing Federal Departments and on the other secretly erecting a massive Big Brother network ready to sweep us all off the streets.

New Democrats are sensible Liberals. They are not given so much to fear or loathing. And as I said, "we" ought to vote for the candidate that best represents the nearest value. NeoLiberals have a long way to go to get close given the propensitiy of their amalgam to utter positions and ideologies far from the center. I have a hard time finding those Obama identified a closet to him representing the values I was informed were Liberal.

And I should remind Anon that Obama went to CT to endorse and support Lieberman after our "illegal" invasion. Perhaps you should include him in your Nazi record books.

Well UB,

I know you can't talk about it, but I hope you have some measure of comfort somewhere. So Sorry!

A "Hitler" like genocide could happen again. It wasn't that long ago. Oh wait, hmmm, what about those African countries.....Darfur, Sudan? what is wrong with this picture- everything.

People don't really change much over time, you can see that from literature.

I am so sad Hillary won't be are next President. I really believe she would have been the one to make a difference.

UnlikelyB...we love you and will support you. I hope this shitstorm isn't too severe.

when the us intelligence service took reinhard gehlen, along with him came many truckloads of intelligence papers............we kept them, of course........

" Reinhard Gehlen (1902-1979), served as an intelligence operations chief for Nazi Germany, and then as a head intelligence officer for West Germany and the USA during the Cold War. "

took IN reinhard gehlen, that is.......

Basically, it is about very small issues regarding laws and rights. Which apparently are not what they used to be.

Funny thing is, by acquaintance, I have one of the power house lawyers in this town. They tried to quiet me and in return they get "this" lawyer. Plus this firm likes good juicy ( oh that would never happen here press) publicity.

It was very ugly when it happened, but just maybe once, we will win back our constitutional rights. I still cry when I think of how I felt when they flashed their badges. It was awful.

Sorry to go on....Go Hillary........ok i'm on topic.

That's it - I am stopping myself---it is a shit storm - I need a shit umbrella. Thanks for the kind words.

Oh God,

I won't ask and saying that we support you sounds a little hollow across the screen, but I REALLY understand. So Good luck and even if we are powerless here, we care a lot and support you Burrito. I know everything will be all right.

But being it sure is a scary thing, finding out that your right are not what you thought they were.

Operation Paperclip (also credited as Project Paperclip) was the code name under which the U.S. intelligence and military services extracted German scientists from Nazi Germany, during and after the final stages of World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_paperclip

LL you're too funny. I think the Left loves their Bush is Hitler motif too much to let go. I think some will actually cry when Bush says good bye.

I have a feeling if Obama ever becomes President, "racsists" will be the favorite theme. "Oh you're a racist". I find it so strange that the Party most demonizing the President reacts with such horror to attacks on Obama as "demonizing". Now I have never seen Republicans take to the street with placards saying Obama Bin Laden, but then we're not to the GE yet.

If a person goes to Pakistan on College spring break, he's not OBL

If a person gets a start in politics from a Middle East busniess man or a former domestic terrorist, he's not OBL

If a person goes to a church that supports various groups such as Hamas and defends a pastor that said GDA, he's not OBL

If a person organizes a march with Farrakhan, he's not OBL

And even if a person becomes President and advocates policies that lead to a weakening of our American leadership and alliances in the MIddle East that results in more terrorism and expansion of terror, he's still not OBL

OBL is OBL.........

Thanks Shelia, I really appreciate your kind words.

Actually, I beleive that when this happens, it has to be exposed. I think it goes on all the time now. Most people would choose to drop it. It's not worth the bother, BUT actually it is very worth it.

I am floored at what happened, and I live in an area where this does NOT happen. But since it did, I now think it must happen EVERYWHERE. Before I used to think That intimidation was the exception. not anymore

STurgeone,

Have a drink on Marie of Roumania and Me. : )

Michelle Obama - now if she were running I would vote for her, not over Hillary, but she is better then Barack.

Hi,

I am one of those typical white middle aged women who the Democratic Party is losing. I was away for a while, just got out of the hospital after falling down the stairs at my camp and compressing a vertebrae and breaking a couple of ribs. Been on heavy drugs for a week which made the North Carolina loss a little less intolerable.

If my accident wasn't enough to piss me off, I also quit smoking 8 days ago. With all this and what is going on with this primary I could just spit bullets.

I am really ready to give up on the Democrats. I do think they are the party of losers. With everything going our way this year they are working hard to find a way to lose this election.

I really can't go for the Republicans but I think I can give up caring all together. Life is short and maybe there is something to this 2012 stuff.

ct

Maxtrue...

I don't usually do this, but I'm going to take on a few of your points because I think they're either weak in spots or missing some key elements of truth.

You asked: "Where does Bush advance the idea of a singular race to rule the world?"

He doesn't...but he is extremely partial to the ultra-wealthy. I'm not talking about those who are upper middle class socio-economically; I'm talking about those who are 'flying in their own private jet' rich. And his partiality is leading to some very difficult times for the majority of Americans. Oh, and on the issue of ruling the world...big business and the ultra-rich already do. It is my considered opinion that the US is no longer a democracy, but a plutocracy...and most of us were so busy living our lives and making ends meet that we missed it when it happened.

Voting Democrat in 2008 has never been more important! The Roberts court has not made a single decision that favored people over big business. Imagine another two or three Republican appointees to the Supreme Court. No one on this blog will live long enough to see that damage reversed.

You asked: "And how is the DOD is anything like the system Hitler had?"

The DOD may be nothing like anything Hitler had, but I wonder why this administration finds it so necessary to create what could easily become someone's own private army. I'm talking about Blackwater and its ilk. I suggest you read Jeremy Scahill's book entitled Blackwater before dismissing those concerns. And dead men really can't talk...so those who were gunned down in NoLa in the days following Katrina by the good soldiers of Blackwater will never be able to give their side of the story...and neither will any innocents they may have killed in other actions where they've been involved.

You said: "Hagee say mean things about Catholics is a no no"

Hagee said a lot of things, and each and every one of them were directed toward people who have no power...like blaming gays and other assorted sinners (his opinion, not mine) for Katrina's destruction of New Orleans. The primary point here is that Hagee's vituperation is directed toward those who are largely defenseless.

You also said: "but Wright say GDA and well, that's understandable."

I really worry about the ability of the general public to discern the meaning of the spoken and written word. I read your posts and can see that you're clearly a bright and articulate man, so how is it that you do not understand what Wright was saying? For starters, he was quoting an ambassador when he described parts of the scenario that led up to his "No, no, no...God damn America" comment. His words were focused on a very powerful entity...you might even say the MOST powerful entity on the planet...the United States government. His words were descriptive, not a call to action...as though he even had the power to call his God to action!...he wanted his congregation to understand that America's chickens do come home to roost. When we meddle in the affairs of other nations, when we treat the world's oil supply as though it is ours to control, we should expect that someday, some new power is going to become strong enough to strike back. I may not agree with his strutting, egotistical style, but I can still appreciate the accuracy of the words. Ours is not a government that can do no wrong. Ours is a government that makes its share of mistakes...some of them deliberately...and most of us 'regular Americans' (God! I hate that term. It implies that the ruling class - politicians and the big business entities that own them - think they're better than the rest of us!) aren't informed enough to recognize that some of their decisions make us objects of hate in some parts of the world.

As I said, I don't usually engage this deeply in this forum. Frankly, I think much of what goes on here is just plain silly. All this fighting over something none of us has any real control over. But I like a lot of the people who post here, and I had a strong enough opinion this time to drag me out of the woodwork.

chet and jerry..................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni8KBhnebwE&feature=related

Hell, a former Nazi scientist helped us land on the moon.

Burrito, Hitlers rise and fall even today. Africa has been a source of incredible brutality. Serbia could give rise to a Hitler and even Belarus. I would be surprised if any leader could get away with such mass genocide but Rwanda is not that long ago.I rather doubt America is prone to Hitler. Even Orwell envisoned more of an elite in power. Even Hugo was voted down recently. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but government control and internal security is so hard to subjugate that even Assad would have to watch his back if his miitary was thrown into the abyss. There are just too many ways to take out a Hitler and Saddam might have been the most entrenched one left.

No where did I ever say that the government was never capable of many abuses of power, nor did I say that our Constitutional Rights are secure without our vigilance. I just don't see how hyper exaggeration gets us anywhere and I do expect that suspected terrorists and non-citizens without papers will be subject to continued scrutiny. All it would take is another attack and Americans will expect a tightening of security.

What we need is a serious discussion of how to make ourselves safer while providing sufficient oversight to protect our rights. That has always been a tough divide and it is not going to get easier.

U_B...*loaning you my s**t umbrella*

harborwoman,

I enjoyed your post.

The world is "ef t " up. So all you can do is do your best !

Don't hold back anymore.

Thanks HBwoman.

Barack Obama Is a Loser

"What do you call a candidate who wins 90 percent of the African-American vote, between 30 percent and 50 percent of the Hispanic vote and 40 percent of the white vote in a tight Democratic primary race?

A general election loser.

Democrats expected a political realignment in 2008, with a strong new coalition led by young voters. Instead, they may end up with 1972 all over again."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26425

Max,

The balance is the key. Seriously, don't you think there may be a huge problem when suburban ex-soccer moms' are discussing if they need "arms" in their homes or not?

Times have change, and the world may be able to turn on a dime.

When I can't count on my rights - I have a problem.

ct,
Glad you are back and hope you are feeling better. Yes, the Democrats do seem to be the party of losers. I enjoyed myself last night by unsubscribing to email lists of the DNC, DCCC, DSCC, etc. It made me feel good for the first time in a couple of months. I will continue to work for and support individual local candidates but the party is on notice that they are about to lose one of their foot soldiers. I did not believe in John Kerry but worked my heart out for him anyway, I won't do that again. Good luck to them to get those "New Democrats" to do the heavy lifting. I have seen no evidence that they are anywhere to be found.

Maxture,

The crack down on illegals is killing businesses because they are afraid to go out anymore.

Every issue is so complex, and connected to everything else.

Zoey -

Heavy lifting....lol.....that might be equal to lifting a cell phone for them. Maybe I shouldn't have had 9-lives for dinner. : (

ct I do think they are the party of losers.
It's beginning to look that way. But don't give up.

zoey I enjoyed myself last night by unsubscribing to email lists of the DNC

I'm going to do the same. When you get out of the dnc does that automatically make you an Indepentdent?

Haborwoman, first I understand that you weren't refuting what I was saying, but that perhaps my points missed some other essential facts.

Your first item is rather weak because Soros and others are extremely wealthy. What we are witnessing in the NeoLiberal camp is a fusion between poorer more radical camps with extremely rich Liberal people like Gefen, Soros and many others. Even Gore and Kerry are quite wealthy. To say that the Democrats don't have serious money is a mischaracterization. So I wonder about your claim that Bush represents such super wealth. It is just a different kind of wealth. At a certain point wealth is wealth and Obama considers anything over 97,000 per year as "very wealthy". LOL

Second point- Black Water and other private security firms are essential whether you think so or not. The DOD does not want to provide such services and numerous governments and groups would be in harm's way without them. We can argue about how to regulate them, but they are creations of necessity and not Bush's desire to create a private NAZI security force. There are far too many targets and situations for DOD to cover. Even business requires such protection and other nations like Russia require p[rivate armies to protect every major business from hit squads of competition. Again, I do not say these security firms should not be regulated and have rules and over sight, but their reality is a reality of the times. This is why most Democratic bills to withdraw from Iraq do not include withdrawal of private security firms. In fact some proposals call for increases private security exposure to provide cover as US troops pull out. This is clearly mentioned in the Baker Report..

I do not see your point on Hagee. Wright attacks groups with power like Jews and White people but Hagee attacks group with less power like Homosexuals and Catholics? I don't get your point. Both are rather deplorable but Wright is particularly anti-AMERICAN and really only now a major issue because of two congregants that sat in his church listening to him for twenty years and seem to have no recollection of items only recently denounced. Hagee was not McCain's Pastor. A good study would be to compare Reagan's spiritual mentor with Obama's as Obama likes to talk about Reagan.

I am well aware of the entire speech that Wright gave that included GDA. While I can understand that Blacks have a different cultural take on American history, the historical generalizations that Wright makes in his sweeping comments do not, I believe, warrant his GDA. The deflection that coming home to roost did not accurately fit in to Wright's theme of GDA is silly, no matter who first said it. Of course it did as does Wright's take on AIDS. These are Wright's essential themes of Divine Justice. It is not that I have no sensitivity to the Black experience, quite the contrary, but Wright's rants have not really been that explored by media. One should examine the connections between Muslim militancy and radical Black Theology which converge on the idea of a Black Palestinian Jesus. Trinity is a nexus of such cross-cultural militancy, though degrees separated from Jihadist's and revolutionaries. There is a serious thread of anti-Zionism and a convergence in political strategy concerning the erosion of support for the State of Israel and an assault on the perceived power of the Jewish Community, which ironically has supported both Black African refugees and the front line in civil rights. So while you ask me to look deeper, I ask you to look deeper still and see the underlying motion and ideology, which is hard to believe Obama, was and is unaware of as he supports Wright's defender REV Moss.

I do understand the "object of hatred theory", but that is a game we will never win. Once Obama suggested building new schools and paying new teachers to give out new books to areas throughout the world where ignorance and poverty breed anti-Americanism.. Will the money for this come from the DOD or healthcare? The bottom line is that some countries hate us because we have alliances with their adversaries. Other hate us because they oppose our ideological principles. I am hard pressed to find countries that hate us because we steal their resources or steal their money. Other nations simply dislike us because we are their economic competitor. Surely we have made imperial mistakes and have used our weight at times. America did however rise in power due to our invited system and model. Under American leadership, the world has far more Democratic governments and greater international liberty. You have not proven that the US controls the world's oil supply. This is simply not true. It is a myth from the Left. You act as though the oil producers are forced to sell for what we want and get nothing in return.

I do appreciate your taking the time to engage and would not say that you have no points. I understand what you are implying though I do not think they refute my words and in some cases I think you exaggerate the points you're making. But I suppose you feel that way about what I have to say. Again I made strong claims regarding the prior references to Hitler. Though you expressed some nuances that suggest Bush is not without problems, I think my original assertions have merit. Bush advanced no despicable theory of racial superiority, has no private storm troopers, that Wright is far more inflammatory than Hagee in terms of Presidential associations. GDA and much of the submerged rhetoric coming from Obama world runs counter to my familiar notions of mainstream Liberalism which I see displaced by a new NeoLiberalism spouting much more serious implications for our national self-interest.

Thanks Harborwoman for your comments

A general election loser.
Gordo, enjoy reading your links.
Keep them coming. Thanks

Chef Sheila Hussein The Nun,??? good grief, girl, what's become of you? Once the mild mannered chef and now this? This place has corrupted you. ;-)

BTW, I Googled Coulter and Marfan's and there're 3,200 entries. Guess I'm not the only one.

tt

Craig, are you aware that one of Sen Obama's campaign advisor has secretly met with Hamas? How come the MSM is not reporting this? This should be in all news media's headline, right?

I guess because it is not Sen Clinton's adviser who met with Hamas, that is why.

Buritto, First, Illegals have seriously hurt my business in NYC though I still empathize with their plight and support Amnesty which would take away the explotation responsible for others under-cutting my professional services. Many illegals have mentioned the irony that wealthy Liberals in NYC rather like the lower costs driven by their exploitation, which is why many will vote Hillary. Amazing they barely speak English and understand what many here don't.

Mexicans are among the hardest working peole I have ever seen renovate. They often send have of their $500 a week pay check back home and forgo medical and dental services. If they get hurt, who cares? Sad and is a major reason I won't hire them. I would be guilt ridden into oblivion. NYC won't go after illegals so as they flock here, my work suffers. I have had to lower my prices and I'm thinking of moving to areas where I can find better work. NYC would shut down without illegals and I find the entire situation deplorable. Obama himself introduced a bill that would have prevented employers from checking workers status. Then in a debate he chastized Bush for failing to demand employers check status. WOW.

So you see, my principles stand up to the fact illegals are killing me. I empathize with them and consider both Parties accomplices in the present situation. The fact that Obama wants universal healthcare to cover illegals will be a problem for him. While I hear the crack down is hurting you, a crack down would increase me take home by 20% easily. So remember that as I advocate for amnesty and refuse to be a part of the insane approach of deporting 15 million people. I also hold the many Liberals who love the situation every day they have their apartments cleaned and painted and their food delivered or their dog walked, largely responsible for the status quo.If you don't believe me check out Craig's List NYC and watch Upper West Side Home owners serach for a $10 per hour experianced painter to paint their home. They even have the balls to demand tools while writing the message in Spanish, just to be clear

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/lbg/675284594.html

when this guy contacted me he wanted to know how I would construct a high end shower platform for a marble job. I sent him some finish pictures of my work and then he asked me what I wanted per day. I played his game and gave him an absurdly low price. He never got back to me. I don't really check out Craig's List for listings, I often run an ad for my services.

The typical home owner or contractor is seeking $9-$12 per hour with experinance trades people in NYC. I know pet sitters making more money. This is what illegals have done to the home improvement business in the city. The Wealthy people just love it.

LOL, of course I meant WOULD vote for Hillary. I'm sure Obama WOULD not like illegals voting in the GE.

Maxtrue...

You're welcome...for my comments.

Nowhere did I say that there are not wealthy Democrats. Quite frankly, I don't think there's much more than a nickels worth of difference between today's Democrats and Republicans...at least in their willingness to feed at the trough of those who can feed their insatiable appetites for money to run their campaigns...and, increasingly, for perks that equate to the trappings of great wealth. You're right...at a certain point, wealth is wealth. It is, however, my opinion that the bulk of the great wealth, the corporate wealth, resides on the Republican side...and is rapidly resulting in the destruction of our once great nation. Hence, my comments about the importance of the Supreme Court as we all consider our votes in the upcoming presidential election.

We will simply have to agree to disagree about the dangers inherent in the rise of firms such as Blackwater. You see necessity; I see danger. If Blackwater was ONLY a private security firm, I might be able to come to some agreement with you, but I think we both know their purpose and uses go much further.

As I said, you seem bright...if a bit insulting of and condescending toward others' intelligence, which is rarely a wise thing to engage in...so I'm surprised both that you fail to see my point regarding Hagee and that you've thrown in the red herring that he is not McCain's pastor. Please note that I never once mentioned McCain. I merely responded to your comments about Hagee, whose only attacks have been against the defenseless. I can't imagine what is so hard to 'get' about that. Jews and white people are not powerful entities in the sense that the US government is a powerful entity, though it is true that individuals and groups from both sectors of the population wield some power. However, we are not talking about the same thing when you bring that up.

If you do not understand my points about Wright's statements that included the words "chickens coming home to roost" and Gd America, I suspect there's nothing I can say or do to ever explain them to you. I listen and hear one thing - which I think is accurate. You listen and you hear something entirely different - which you think is accurate. Impasse.

I have not attempted to prove that the US controls the world's oil supply. I stated that we have a propensity for meddling in the affairs of other nations, nations that often have large oil reserves, and that we often do try to control large quantities of the world's oil supply...if not directly, then indirectly. Again, I would suggest that the book Blackwater makes interesting reading. You'll find information about our meddling, disguised as big business ventures, with Russia's oil supply.

I am curious. You truly sound like a conservative to me. I have no problem with that...think the world is bigger than to have room for only one ideology...but I think I've seen you deny that on this blog, and am wondering about your affiliations. I'm also curious about your occupation...or former occupation, if you're retired.

"While I hear the crack down is hurting you, a crack down would increase me take home by 20% easily." said Maxtrue

Actually, we have zero competition with illegals. They do not influence our business, but I can completely understand your point.

I'm not terribly surprised that a Hillary apologist would pretend that a state tailor made for Hillary is somehow the metric of who will win in November but you should really check your facts. Dukakis won WV in 1988. How did that work out for him? Carter did the same thing in 1980 and yet we still got President Regan.

LOL Harborwoman. I sound like a conservative? Man, the divide within Liberalism is growing

I support a woman’s right to choose in the first two trimester's though I think Wade is not good and she should be held accountable for any maternal negligence. Okay, you asked for it........

I support government’s right to regulate guns, but not a total ban.

I support gay rights and minority rights in general

I support free speech and oppose media trying to claim special right unto themselves

I support environmentalism without the religious component (did you know the earth is cooling?)

I support evolutionary theory and oppose Intelligent design and the literal interpration of any religious doctrine

I support the separation of religion and State

I support Amnesty and secure borders

I support free markets and the promotion of Liberal Democracy

I support strong national security

So how am I not Liberal? Because I do not support the redistribution of wealth and the creation of a welfare State? Because I do not see America as an Imperial beast but part of a necessary Western Hegemony that ought to function through the invitation of others drawn to our values and prosperity? Because I support Jeffersonian principles of State Rights and Individual Liberty? Because I reject radical groups aggregated on both sides of the political divide? Because I take very seriously the record, associations and history of a Presidential candidate as opposed to purty words? Because I do not embrace the NeoLIberal Wing as centrist advocates of Liberalism capable of dealing with foreign affairs or bipartisan accords?

Perhaps you consider my views conservative due to the gradual shift of Democrats towards the Left.

So you think corporations only support Republicans? And that somehow corporations are inherently bad and do not have good intentions as opposed to thousands of small businesses that love to exploit illegals? And trial lawyers, unions are inherently better sources of money? Perhaps Rezko was a better source for Obama than let's say Texas Instruments?

A book on Black Water or not, what once was protected by larger DOD resources and the IC now requires private security companies. As countries get more advanced, more targets are threatened. This is the consequence of globalization and the education of terrorists and criminal networks. One reason is the unwillingness of our allies to provide more security support despite the size of Europe’s available forces. The world has grown lazy and places much of the burden on the US. 4G warfare requires low profile security that bolsters regional players rather than deploys conventional forces. We have a limited source of special ops, which we must be careful to deploy wisely. More and more targets are being threatened by terrorists and criminals. This require more security forces. I don't see how you get around the Black Waters and the central objections seem to revolve around regulation, conduct and rules. These can be reformed as Congress has suggested. Right now gangs, which Mexico can’t control, operate with impunity at our Southern Border. The world is thinking of seriously expanding nuclear production. Security is essential.

If you are suggesting that America is to blame for Bin Laden then you are squarely in the NeoLIberal camp, even more Left. Clinton, Kerry, Obama, and even Pelosi reject such reasoning and Jimmy Carter and Zbig that support Obama or advice him created Bin Laden in the first place. Still, the idea that we are responsible for a person like OBL hitting the WTC is not what I call mainstream Liberal thinking, Sorry, no play. The Saudis made a deal long ago requesting the West's presence in the Gulf and the Mullah supported the coup that brought the Shah new powers. If you want to go there, I will be happy to play tennis with you. The meddling of other nations in the affairs of nations abounds today. China supports the Sudan. Russia has used energy to meddle extensively. Hugo meddles in South America. Why do you think he wants Iranian and Russian weapons technology?

I think that in order to make your case you would have show how we control oil, plain and simple. I suggest you go to Foreign Affairs and do a search. I think you will find articles suggesting the opposite, though oil domination is a big NeoLIberal theme. That I don’t buy the articles of faith make me more objective, not conservative.

I am younger than you think. Perhaps my posts make you think I'm retired with little to do…LOL. I'm actually building bathrooms and renovating apartments. Tomorrow I'll run my circle around Central Park. I have many hobbies and this is one. I also am a song writer and keyboardist on a long long sabbatical. Horace Mann prepares one to self educate and I do not try to be condescending. With my typos that is a stretch. What you see is certain contempt at the ease with which many assert things without facts. I was taught that facts are important. Do you know that China will soon be drilling in the Gulf closer to the US than we allow American companies? Do you know the hundreds of billions of oil IN America or just off our shores and that North America has the largest deposits of remaining oil in the world? I mean, people make assertions like they have a grasp of the facts. LL and Flatus have a grasp of what they say. So do many others. Some just wing it, so there is a little belligerence in my posts as I see the weaker reasoning crowd, which is supposedly the more educated base of Liberals dominate the Party. Now it doesn't make me bitter. It ups my game, that's all. Facts, show me facts. You don't hear Iraq bitching about private security forces these days. Do you have how many have died and how many lives of people in Iraqi they have protected? It is though some do not know the extent of the struggle going on in the world. I'm not directing this at you, just trying to explain my behavior.

Does Wright believe Jesus is a Black Palestinian? Does it matter? Well if you follow the struggle in the Middle East and on college campuses, it does matter. And it was Khalidi, Obama friend working with others from Trinity Church that staged the useless invite to Ahmadinejad at Columbia University where my father graduated. Young people are being indoctrinated in ways MY liberal teachers did not indoctrinate me. They taught me to think for myself.

So I can tell you I look about forty or so, follow the Warrior Diet, consider myself Liberal and Independent, a realist about human behavior and the world and a former Biology and Art major from a Mid West Liberal College. I doubt one could call a former rocker a conservative, though Nugent is one I guess. Enough of my personal credentials. I just don't fit your notion of what Liberal ought to be. It was the Federalists that rejected slavery in 1789 and Hamilton indirectly gave his life for it in a duel with Burr. Jefferson who is a Liberal icon went to battle Muslims, while Franklin who is often scorned by Liberals defended abolition more than any Founding Brother. So labels are hard to pin.

I am a social Liberal but that never meant socialist. I am more a hawk, which since Carter has been increasingly excluded from the Party. NeoLiberals scorn DLCers. And I support Israel which also is increasingly given just lip service by NeoLiberals while many believe the US is too "controlled" by Jewish interests. Give it a few years and my position will look more Liberal than it does now.

I hope that helped. You see a Liberal solution to abortion would be to return the matter to the States and stop creating a monster government. Roe is a bad law and it is founded on the ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb. That will change and “natural” is a word that will not survive yesterday’s definition. I agree with the social compromise, but again, bad law, is bad law and I know many pro-choicers that agree. That is as big a problem as the monster corporations. SCOTUS under existing Commerce interpretations could demand that any State banning abortion would still be required to pay for those unable to, to travel to States that legalize abortion. Many problems could be solved by giving people their choice while protecting minority rights. That was what our Founders thought. Many in the NeoLIberal camp want to refashion our experiment so it conforms to Zinni and that is not the liberal I support. So I would say I am a Liberal who respects the Constitution and the need for national self-interest and security. When we stick out heads in the sand, disaster finds us. There, I have tried my best to answer your question....

And now slumber calls

Baaaarock BockBock will lead the Democratic Party to a devastating defeat..so humiliating..

Maxtrue...

Wow! Just took the time to read your post. You are far more informed about many things than I am, and I consider myself reasonably well-informed. I will reread your post tomorrow when I'm not so tired, and see if I can fashion some sort of response that makes sense. I do appreciate your detailed explanation of how you've come to the positions you hold. And, so you will know more about where I'm coming from, I consider myself an independent. For many years, my leanings were more to the right. That has changed in the past five years, due to a great deal of research into some of the problems caused by the overweening influence of big business on our government.

GOP getting crushed in polls, key races

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10238.html

Why isn't Michelle Obama getting more coverage on her speeches?

How can some of you guys watch msnbc, those who are Hillary people? I'm glad you do, tho, cuz I like to know what they're doing - keep telling us.

I'm still having trouble with my typekey id - suddenly shut off. Computers are not good for my blood pressure.

Maxtrue:

Very impressive. So you can recite the Constitution...

"So how am I not Liberal?"

Because you seem to think "liberal" is a bad word or an insult.

"Because I do not support the redistribution of wealth and the creation of a welfare State?"

Taxes and the Welfare state have been around for a long time Max. It is not some new creation.

"Because I do not see America as an Imperial beast but part of a necessary Western Hegemony that ought to function through the invitation of others drawn to our values and prosperity?"

America skyrocketed into the club of super powers - and then recently became the sole hegemont - which is a position that comes with just as many blessings as trappings. Geopolitics, Military and Economic strength ensure we will be a super power for many generations to come. And I for one do not see anything wrong at sitting at the head of the table - instead of arrogantly drinking at the bar alone...

"Because I support Jeffersonian principles of State Rights and Individual Liberty?"

No problem with State's Rights here.

"Because I reject radical groups aggregated on both sides of the political divide?"

Rejecting gets you know where. It is better to disagree and explain.

"Because I take very seriously the record, associations and history of a Presidential candidate as opposed to purty words?"

Words matter. Politicians get paid to talk if you haven't noticed. And Senator Obama has quite an impressive record and history.

And why does the GOP get a pass for all of the Right Wing nuts - but Liberal wackjobs are somehow off limits?

"Because I do not embrace the NeoLIberal Wing as centrist advocates of Liberalism capable of dealing with foreign affairs or bipartisan accords?"

Who made you boss?

Maxtrue:

"As countries get more advanced, more targets are threatened. This is the consequence of globalization and the education of terrorists and criminal networks."

And it is also inevitable and must be dealt with accordingly.

"One reason is the unwillingness of our allies to provide more security support despite the size of Europe’s available forces."

This is because of a marked lack of diplomacy the past 8 years and the Bush Doctrine of Foreign Policy.

"The world has grown lazy and places much of the burden on the US."

One of the trappings of being the sole hegemont.

"We have a limited source of special ops . . . ."

Which we should increase. And Patreus gets that. He is one of the experts on counter-insurgency tactics.

And one of the keys to fight terrorism is using the domestic law enforcement agencies of the countries where terrorists exist - in addition to military force.

Large-scale military strikes are designed to topple governments. They are not designed to root out terrorism. This is because they often result in significant numbers of civilians casualties - which exponentially create terrorists (especially in impoverished conditions where people lack hope.)

No matter how much the Obama posse stamps its feet and demands
all of us Dems line up like good solders and support their guy, it just
is not going to happen. Guilt won't work. Threats won't work. Even
fear of McBush won't work. For many of us once loyal Democrats, we feel betrayed, not just by the Obama campaign, but by the Dem Party
itself. Somewhere along the way, the Party has been hijacked by the
far left, the Huffington Post-sneering-militants. I agree with Oregon Democrat
and Ruth and many others that there is slim chance Obama will win the
election in November. The majority of Americans are not radical liberals,
but centrists. It took me awhile to decide, but after witnessing the 2008
primary assault on the Clintons, I cannot vote Dem this year. The more
the Obama supporters continue to attack Senator Clinton, the more they
push me to vote for McCain. I had thought I'd sit out this election, but
I'm just as compelled to vote Republican. Here's my warning for the
Obama's supporters: stop baiting and bullying Clinton and her backers if you hope to win any of their votes. It may surprise you but, many of us won't be marking our ballots for your man. That should be a sobering thought.

they cant hear you, marcia.....they're too busy marching to peoria........

Hey Crawford,
You've been hitting the sauce way too hard lately. Backing the loser Billary will only hasten your descent into chemical dependency. See the light my friend...the beacon that is Barack Obama! Good luck with rehab!