Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

http://www.slate.com/id/2191698/

For AnonParanoid, but he won't like it.

I was listening to Air America yesterday. The host said that since Senator Joey has had such success as an Independent, there is no doubt HRC will run as an indy come November.

so anyway, it was Randi Rhodes...here's the link to some comments about it...really, does she have the support to raise a hundred million dollars or so to fund an indy run?

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=969

...my thoughts are with President Carter this morning as he is deeply saddened at the death of his consigliore , the much-loved Hamilton Jordan, who fought three different cancers a total pf 22 years. Talk about profiles in courage....

Bob Schieffer said he believes Sam Nunn (GA) might be Obama's #1 choice come decision time for a veep.
I guess Schieffer thinks that would win the South for Obama.
Kudos to CBS News big-wigs for talking Bob Schieffer out of his upcoming retirement. He was scheduled to retire after the election, now he's signed on to a new contract to remain with Face The Nation. Was Scott Pelley rumored to replace him before all this came about?

"she's learned her lesson"

Mr. Bye-Bye shows his colors again.

"Come here gol-darned you
Take that and that and that
That's right
Slap her down agin' Pa, slap her down agin'"

She'll by gawd learn 'thet lesson.

You fools don't have a clue about the Pandora's Box you've opened.

It's not over yet, and Mr Obama shouldn't take it for granted that we'll want to become part of his fold.

I'm glad he's someone to the DNC to oversee their work between now and the convention, not that he needed to, they've been in his pocket from the start.

I hope Mrs Clinton comes up with at least 50-pct of the pledge delegates from yesterday's voting. It's hard to tell if she will because of the 'unique' formula being used for ballot weighting this year.

Time to send Mrs Clinton another $100. I think that will max me out for the cycle.

Dex, Schieffer was charming on Imus yesterday morning. His reminiscing about Harold Ford and his relationship with his family was especially warm.

I'll be happy listening for so long as he wants to broadcast.

Perfect. Sam Nunn is on the board of GE. That way MSNBC could REALLY get behind Obama.

Ah, shucks, Patsi, whenever a politician joins a board it's strictly platonic,

With Mr Kennedy's political influence significantly diminished because of his illness, will Mr Obama be able to retain the SDs he managed to purloin from Mrs Clinton?

You know, for me, the most egregious thing Obama has done so far is when he said Hillary Clinton's campaign made things better for his daughters. OH MY GOD! What an arrogant and condescending statement.

Yeah, Patsi, I came close to barfing on that one. Yeah, she's broken barriers. What a laugh.

You know, I could have saved a whole bunch of emotional and financial capital if the DNC had, at the start of this whole process, said that there was no point in participating this season because the nomination had already been guaranteed to Mr Obama.

Forgive me if you've read this. My post got lost at the end of the last
thread when Craig changed the topic.

Why I'm A Democrat and I Can't Vote for Obama

The DNC and Obama-zillas think it's okay to kick women to the curb. In the
words of the first woman VP candidate, Geraldine Ferraro, and a strong
Democrat: "Obama ran a sexist campaign. Clinton, with the blessing of Camp Obama, was slammed by the major news outlets using misogamy as their
weapon."

A few of the numerous anti-woman quotes aired by the media:

"Hillary's like everyone's first wife"
"like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction"
"stock up on Hillary nut crackers"
"Hillary is only where she is because Bill cheated on her"
"she's a bitch"
"someone get her out of the pant suits"
"listen to her cackle"
"she's like my scolding mother"
"white women are a problem, you know, we all live with that"
"every guy has had a girl friend like her--she won't go away"
"she pimps out Chelsey"
"she's likable enough" Senator Obama

If even one of these kinds of remarks was made by a pundit against
Obama, there would have been outrage--lawsuits would have been
filed, riots would have erupted in the streets, congressional panels would
have been formed.

Yet, the DNC and the rest of the humanitarian-far-left-equality-for-all Obama
Camp thought all these sexist attacks and many more were okay.

These are some of the reasons Obama lost my vote and has lost the vote
of thousands of other women across the country.

If the Dem Party thinks that they can win without us, they're taking a
major gamble. Their arrogant confidence that they can win without
white women over 40 (I'm 43) and the working class vote just might
be the gamble that loses them the election.

"You know, I could have saved a whole bunch of emotional and financial capital if the DNC had, at the start of this whole process, said that there was no point in participating this season because the nomination had already been guaranteed to Mr Obama."

Exactly.

Prof Marcia -- I was going to quote from your post....then I realized I'd ned to quote the whole thing. YES! YES! You have nailed this ugly season.

Prof Marcia - You're speaking for me too. As Patsi says, the fools have no idea what they have unleashed. They're about to find out, though.

Patsi, you're ridiculous. A person fails at something, comes back with better perspective for a second attempt, and you read SEXISM.

Michael Jordan misses a game winning shot. He goes to his left instead of his right. The next time, HE LEARNS HIS LESSON and goes right and scores. Is that SEXIST?

You really do need some help. Whoever abused you really did a job and made you see the world through a very narrow prism. Unfortunately, they've accomplished whatever they wanted from that abuse because they now have you seeing abusers under every bed, behind every closet door and in every blog post. I wonder how you even write books being so myopic. Here's a bit of info for you: Sometimes a rose is simply a rose. Nothing more.

Back to more normal discussions...

HW: Thanks for the kind words. The county north of us took the hit tonight. We are okay, but once again North central Georgia got hammered.

I think the severe weather season is going to be quite active this summer in the Atlanta metro area. It certainly has been an eventful spring. I don't know what is worse, tornadoes or the drought!

Mr. Dem: Is calling out sexism any worse than perceiving racism every where?

Now you know how we feel about your accusing anyone that doesn't kneel at the altar of Obama racists.

You couldn't be more wrong, Patsi. See, when you stand up for something, you need to understand that you pick your battles or you devalue what you're defending. And if you're truly a person who cares about defending the defenseless, you also give up the martyr role by understanding that others care just as much as you. You would have lost your bet, Patsi.

GAKaren, using a negative argument as a way to prove an argument doesn't work. However, perhaps if you dispense with the sarcasm and seriously look at the concerns of Obama followers and our concerns about the Clinton's using race to divide, then Obama followers will do the same when it comes to sexism. But you're not interested in that. It's more entertaining to stay on each side of the fence and be satisfied that your indignation is justified. So be it. But don't look for any understanding from the Obama followers. We'll just think you're as out of step as Geraldine Ferraro interpreting Obama's "wiping of the shoulders" as being a sexist act. You'll believe what you want to believe, even when evidence to the contrary is explained to you.

As I mentioned once before, there is a woman in almost every household in the country. When the, upwardly mobile, better educated, misogynist voters start looking for clean socks and meals on time, they might understand why we resent being dissed.

Condecension( the remarks about breaking barriers and, for his daughters) is as insulting as the verbal rants about, "Annie Oakley", etc.

The man is an arrogant asshole, and what's worse is that he doesn't even know when he's being insulting.

If he wasn't such a puppet, the DNC wouldn't be pushing the SD's into his camp the way they are. He can be controlled, she can't. The back men, (John Kerry, etc.)who couldn't win it themselves, knew the only way to beat her was to throw a minority into the mix to go up against her gender. Let's face it, the MATH that he brags about were all figured out proportionately before the race even began. Anyone who thinks that he can win in Nov.(Idaho, Wyoming, etc.)is truly deluded. You just saw what happened in WV and Kentucky and it will be that way all over the south and west, workers and women.

I am a woman, and I will never vote for someone who has not - paid his dues - I'll stay home first, I just don't believe he's earned it.

"We'll just think you're as out of step as Geraldine Ferraro interpreting Obama's "wiping of the shoulders" as being a sexist act. You'll believe what you want to believe, even when evidence to the contrary is explained to you. "

There were several things I was going to respond to, pal...but this was the ONE. Uh, yeah -- sexist as shit. And the fact you don't recognize it just makes my point.

OH -- and this comment you made: "And if you're truly a person who cares about defending the defenseless, you also give up the martyr role."

I never claimed to be a martyr. I was never burned at the stake for my stands in my high school years. I didn't allow it. A few people tried....and they lost.

I always believed in the words of the great Vernon Jones (google him Bye Bye -- I know you have no idea who he was.)

Rev. Vernon Johns: "If you see a good fight -- get in it."

That should read "as women."

Oh, give it a break. I listened to Clinton SURROGATES talk about how Clinton staying in the race was a way to break barriers for women. Gloria Allred talked about it just yesterday, saying that now little girls would be inspired to run for the presidency. How one girl on the trail had a sign saying she would be the "the second woman president". So Obama saying that Clinton breaking barriers is INSULTING? Do any of your actually think, or does it not matter to you?

Arrogant? There's that word again. You're losing. Face it. And so when the person who is winning understands they're winning, it's more than okay for them to act that way. As it is, Obama has tried to spare Clinton's feelings.

And to say that the Dems "threw a minority into the mix" is not only insulting, but weird logic. So you think in a country with 80 percent white people that a black man representing 13 percent of the population has an advantage over a white women? A white woman who had a Super Delegate lead from nearly start to finish. Name recognition. Most of the party insiders. Really? That's an advantage? If you think that's an advantage, then there's no arguing with you because you're not making sense.

GAKaren,

And you can't point to any racial politics used by the Clintons? None? Not even one teeny bitty one?

"As it is, Obama has tried to spare Clinton's feelings."

Oh, now let's not upset the little lady, shall we? She shouldn't have to worry her pretty little head about such things.

Stuff it.

Barack Obama as Clinton supporters would like him.

Barack (hat in hand): Ole Miss, I'se so sorry fo' tryin' to run ag'in ya. I'se meant no harm. Marse Clinton says I'se free, but he freer than me. So since he been so good to me, I'se just step aside fo you.

Hillary (rubbing Barack's head): That's a fine boy, Barry. You just step aside and make sure you listen to the minister down there.

Barack (bright smile): Oh yes, ma'am. He done told us to vote fo' you. I knows I can runs, but my peoples love you, Miss Clinton. I'd feel mighty bad takin' it away from you. So yous takes it.

Hillary: Good, Barry. You go on back to the plantation and we'll let you know when you're ready.

Barack: Thanks you ma'am. You Clintons is so good to poor ole Barry.

Barack skipping away singing..."Zippity Do Dah, Zippity Eh!"

Still can't point to one thing the Clinton's did to use race to their advantage? Not one? Nothing?

"As it is, Obama has tried to spare Clinton's feelings. "

Responding to the above and all that Doo-Da-Doo-Da,

Bye Bye. You are a complete idiot.

Racism- intolerable!

Sexism - Yuk Yuk!!!

Sorry Patsi, not a zero sum game. Neither is worse or better than the other.

So Patsi, did you see one instance of Clinton using racism to advance her campaign?

Mr. Dem: The racist bullshit you speak of is crap that has been dreamed up by Axlerod and the media.

Bill Clinton commented about Jesse Jackson because he was ASKED about Jesse Jackson by a reporter. I know because I saw the entire interview that was looped on every media outlet to show Bill Clinton talking about Jesse Jackson. The reporter asked him a freakin' question about Jesse Jackson in South Carolina, Clinton didn't pull those remarks out of his ass. As for the "fairy tale" remark. Clinton was referring to Obama's stance about the Iraq war vote NOT his campaign. Further, you and the media are holding the Clinton's responsible for Ferraro's remarks but you become incensed when people hold Obama responsible for Reverend Wright's remarks. Hillary Clinton did not sanction the comments Ferraro made any more than Obama sanctioned Wright's comments from the pulpit and his press tour.

Meanwhile, Obama trashed the legacy of one of the most successful Democratic presidents in our country's history. With the help of the media he convinced the AA community that Bill and Hillary Clinton are racists like they had no track record with the community during their years of public service in this country.

Quite frankly, the meme that Clinton ran a racist campaign IS a fairy tale.

So the answer is no. You can't point to ONE instance where Hillary Clinton used race to advance her campaign.

I mean even if you think Hillary is perfect, it would seem very, very unlikely that she wouldn't have one misstep where she used race to appeal to the baser elements of the electorate. And yet, you can't find one, but you're able to find a whole SLEW of sexist comments by the Obama campaign. That's pretty amazing.

Considering the outcome of the primary election so far, how has the Clinton campaign's use of race been an advantage?

From where I'm sitting the race issues were brought up by the Obama campaign on the eve of both the SC and NC primaries. The Obama campaign interjected race into the equation in those instances NOT the Clinton campaign. Try to keep up, Mr. Dem.

BTW, your comment about reporters bringing up Jesse Jackson is untrue. Bill Clinton brought it up unsolicited. Here's the complete transcript from ABC. I can get you another source if you'd like.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/01/false-pushback.html

So will you agree that you were wrong?

"So the answer is no. You can't point to ONE instance where Hillary Clinton used race to advance her campaign."

You answered your own question. I am under no obligation to educate you. I just love when people on blogs sit and argue with themselves and set up scenarios where someone has to give examples or else.

Stop wasting my time.

A transcript from ABC? I saw the interview. I don't give a rat's ass what ABC posted.

"You can't point to ONE instance where Hillary Clinton used race to advance her campaign."

You point to one, Bye Bye....which time was it -- mentioning LBJ or answering a question about black voting patterns in SC?

He was asked about voting patterns, idiot.

Wow, so you can point to each and every perceived sexist slight by Obama, and yet with the candidate you follow, you can't find one time where she used race. Can't even bring yourself to admit it.

When presented with evidence to the contrary about your claim that Bill was somehow edited into appearing racist, you then decide that evidence doesn't matter. In fact, you're not even interested in it. So why would anyone want to believe your "evidence" about sexism coming from the Obama camp?

As for Patsi, you know your candidate better than me. You let me know. Has she had ONE, just one instance, when she used racism to advance her candidacy? That doesn't condemn her as being a bad candidate or person, but I'm interested in whether you can recognize in Clinton what you so freely recognize in Obama.

I mean, what's so hard about that? She is fallible.

Oh, and by the way, Bye Bye -- as one who worked for McGovern, check this report about 2008:

Despite a surge of voting in many states, national primary turnout this year is falling short of the record, set in 1972.

Overall turnout thus far has reached 30.2 percent of eligible voters, short of the reord 30.9 percent set in 1972, according to the Committee for the Study of the American Electorate at American University.

Democrats set records in 23 states, but their overall turnout of 19.3 percent fell short of the 21 percent turnout in 1972, when the party nominated George McGovern.

Please point to voting patterns in the following:

Reporter: Mr. President, Senator Kerry that – had some critical comments too about some of the things that have gone on this week. He said being a former president doesn’t give you a license to abuse the truth. Just wanted your reaction to that.

BC: Yes, but did you notice he didn’t specify anything? You notice that? They never do. They hurl these charges, but nothing is specified. I’m not taking the bait today. I did what I could to help Senator Kerry every time he needed me, and every time he asked me, and I have no -- he can support whomever he wants, for whatever reason he wants, but there’s nothing for me to respond to because I don’t believe in labeling, I think he should have specifics, so today we just want everybody to vote.

David Wright: What does it say about Barack Obama that it takes two of you to beat him?
BC: [Laughs] That’s just bait, too. Jesse Jackson won South Carolina twice, in ‘84 and ‘88. And he ran a good campaign, and Senator Obama's run a good campaign here. He’s run a good campaign everywhere, he’s got a, he is a good candidate, with a good organization.

Sorry Bye Bye -- you question my talking about sexism....I say you are playing a race card.

Good Morning,

Could not sleep, so decided to see if anyone else was up and talking. Prof Marcia, your 2:54 post was excellent oratory for so early in the morning.
Flatus: you home now? 2:46. Yes. spot on.
Patsi - you are the queen of this blog.

You all are in top form this morning.

Why Would we want to listen to anything Randi rhodes has to say..?
julie

Where did I point to each and every perceived sexist slight by Obama, Mr. Dem? EACH and EVERY? You must have me confused with someone else. I never made such claims. I just remarked that is his sexism was sickening because he is the father of two daughters.

A transcript from Jake Tapper of ABC is hardly evidence. Jake Tapper is not an objective source. Nice try, but you are wrong once again.

Now, Mr. Dem answer my question, can you present one instance where I outlined EACH and EVERY seixist comment ever uttered by Barack Obama? Where? Give me proof. Give me proof right now.

Can't you? Where's my proof? Where's the transcript? You can't give an example where I outlined Obama's each and every sexist comment he has ever made over the course of the primary?

Your wrong. Will you admit your wrong? Do it do it RIGHT NOW.

Comparing 2008 with 1972 is about as useful as comparing 1972 with 1948. Different times, circumstances and political situations. Too often, baby boomers can't let go of their old 60s and 70s battles and see every election as either a validation or repudiation of policies that were established forty years ago. If Barack Obama is McGovern, is Hillary Clinton going to be Shirley Chisolm?

Can't give me ONE example, Mr. Dem?

You're wrong ... look at me, I'm so wonderful, I've called someone I don't know on a blog wrong.

I'm king of the world.

What a sorry life you must lead, Mr. Dem.

Hi Julie! I've been up with a sick cat...so might have to take a nap soon. Good to see reinforcements here!

No, you simply made a sweeping generality that he's sexist. So, you're saying that he has multiple instances where he displayed sexist behavior. And you still can't point to one instance where Clinton used racist behavior to advance her campaign. What is it? A secret pact where it's okay to accuse one candidate of being sexist and lamenting that he has two daughters, while not being able to see any faults in the candidate you support?

As for the transcript, I'll get you another source. Maybe they'll be more objective.

Comparing 1972 to 2008 is going to be extremely useful. In November.

Obamaworld will be shaking their heads saying, "What happened? Our candidate was so wonderful? Why didn't he win? How could this have happened?"

Once again it must be pointed out that the general election is not a caucus. Obama supporters cannot go out and bully the American electorate to vote for their Messiah.

"If Barack Obama is McGovern, is Hillary Clinton going to be Shirley Chisolm?"

ROFL! Bye Bye-- just keep digging.

Is there something wrong with Shirley Chisolm? Clinton should be honored to be compared to someone as great as Chisolm.

Don't waste your time Mr. Dem.

I don't care about sources or whatever. Your candidate is a sexist. Using logic here (I know that is difficult for an Obama supporter) why does calling Barack Obama sexist mean that I don't see any flaws in Hillary Clinton?

Talk about sweeping generalizations.

GAKaren,

You may be right or wrong. I don't claim to see the future. What I do see is the present and Barack Obama is the leading candidate to be the Democratic nominee. That means he has a better chance than Hillary Clinton to be president because she won't.

I asked a very simple question: Has Clinton used race ONE time to her advantage during the campaign? Not hard to answer. You answered no. That is just an interesting answer, that's all.

Let's face it, Mr. Dem. I will not be citing any instance where Hillary used race in her campaign. That's Keith Olbermann's job, not mine.

But you do acknowledge that there is the possibility, even a remote one, that she could have used race as a strategy.

If your question is so simple why can't I give you an example?

You know why? I am not a gullible Obama supporter that swallows the media's swill, hook line and sinker. You give me the examples since you are the one that is saying she used race. I don't think she did, so why are you berating me?

"Is there something wrong with Shirley Chisolm? Clinton should be honored to be compared to someone as great as Chisolm. "

Now I know you are REALLY stupid. You must have googled Shirley. Try Barbara Jordan next. I would love for you to admit your age, occupation and history. But you won't. Unlike myself, you are afraid to stand up in front of what you say.

hey bye-bye.......get ready for hillary to take her fight to the floor of the convention........lol

But you do acknowledge that there is the possibility, even a remote one, that she could have used race as a strategy.

When will you acknowledge that there is a possiblity, even a remote one, that the Messiah Obama used sexism?

I cannot believe that Minnie the cat seems fine, and George the dog is now back inside and I'm still awake!!!!

What does any of my personal information have to do with knowing about Shirley Chisolm? Getting back to my question, is there something wrong with comparing Hillary Clinton to her? You said I'm digging a hole, so where was my mistake? What was sexist about it?

bye-bye......what youre doing aint sexist......it's just stupid.......

What is stupid?

Patsi: You would know how old Mr. Dem is if we could use avatars on this blog. He would have that "cool" one of Che Guevara.

What is stupid?

Oh my God, that's too easy.

most of what youve been writing......stand by for the fight at the convention......

I thought I gave you an easy question earlier, but you couldn't answer that. So I'm not to worried about you getting this one.

ROFL, Karen -- yes...

I think Clinton supporters have a different agenda than the candidate you claim to support. Clinton loves the Democratic Party and won't hurt it with a convention floor fight. Even an Obama supporter can see that.

Thank you Patsi, GAKaren and Julie for your kind words about my earlier post this early A.M. "Why I'm A Democrat and Can't Vote For Obama."

I'm glad I captured some of the frustration so many of the Democratic
women are feeling right now.

I'm also tired of the pundits and Washington insiders telling
Clinton supporters that it's time we behaved ourselves and lined up
behind Obama.

Okay, Bye Bye -- you asked why who and what you are has anyything to do with anything -- yet you questioned that I write books and said I must have been abused. TELL us about yourself. OR SHUT THE "F" UP.

bye-bye.....are you the questioner now? lol.....

I ask the questions around here......I'll try to make them easier for you.......and if you cant answer them, then I WIN, i tell you......I WIN! "
----Bye-Bye

jeebus, cant make it up.......go play with your obama action figure, dude.......

Mr. Dem: You're question has no merit because I don't believe she used racism in her campaign. It is a media creation ... just like Barack Obama.

Well Patsi, this is a blog. And on a blog, I can tell you anything you like. Would you believe it? I sent GAKaren a TRANSCRIPT and she said that it was biased. So what does it matter? Okay, I'm Napoleon IV, the restorer of the Napoleonic dynastic to the French throne. There, happy?

As for my comment about your possibly being abused, it was based on your comments and how you react to people. As for your writing, it was based on being myopic, dogmatic and generally abusive to others who disagree with you. How can you be creative with those emotions running through you? That was a genuine question.

as to convention floor fight and hurting the party......
WHAT party? If the party dont work, you cant break it, right?

Let's see us a REAL convention for a change, Bye-bye.........stand by for the real world's intrusion on the obama dreamworks.

Oh God, more questions. You better answer him, Patsi or he will call you stupid.

Thank you GAKaren. You don't think she's used race in her campaign. Okay, at least I now know how to evaluate your accusations against Obama.

Sturge: It's amazing isn't it? There were always fights on the convention floor and now the media has set up the notion that is an aberration and Hillary Clinton is doing something radical.

God forbid we have a primary that wasn't decided right after New Hampshire and Iowa.

Sturg,

So why belong to a party in the first place? Why run for a party's nomination if you decide that it's not worth belonging to? That might be a legitimate way to do politics, Nader, Barr and others believe so. If Clinton thinks the party is broken, she can leave and run as an independent.

STAND BACK! He now KNOWS how to evaluate your accusations!

Mr. Democrat,

I will support GAKaren and tell you directly, "No! There was not one instance
where Hillary or Bill Clinton used racism in this primary."

Bill Clinton was named the first Black president by Maya Angelou. He
was adored by the African American community and so was Hillary.
He built his offices in Harlem.

The media, the DNC and Camp Obama had to turn the Clintons into
racists in order to shore up the Black vote, to insure Obama swept
the AA vote. Simple as that.

So, stop with your silly question, already.

bye-bye......more questions? I have a question for you......will you be in denver fighting for obama during the floor fight for the nomination, or will you be plugging away on a blog axing buncha dumb-ass questions..........

Prof Marcia,

Actually, you have to understand the context of what Maya Angelou was saying. She called Bill Clinton the "first Black president" in order to illustrate his treatment during the impeachment hearings. She didn't mean it literally and has said so. In other words, Bill Clinton's unfair treatment was akin to what happens to black men and as such was the first "black president".

As for Bill Clinton, you are right. He was adored by the black community, not because of his deeds, but because he seemed to listen to the black community more than other presidents. He also knew more about the black community than others. Hillary was actually a mystery to most African Americans. She had her work with the CDF, but she basically got a pass because of Bill.

That said, there's a reason why the black community turned against him. Bill made the mistake of believing that African Americans would tie their political future to him, when there was a qualified African American candidate who could carry the flag of the community, thank you very much. And add Clinton's remarks, which most of you deny, but evidently 92 percent of African American voters don't (and please don't say they were duped. Racism, like sexism for women, is something black people are very familiar with, so they recognize it), the die was cast.

It's easy to say that the media did this or that. It's harder to point to the point to the mistakes of your candidate.

GREAT question, Sturg. I'll be on the floor in Denver.

I'm still waiting to see what was wrong comparing Hillary Clinton with Shirley Chisolm. Patsi said I was digging a hole and I'd like to know what was wrong with the comparison.

good for you, lad.......get ready for a knock-down drag outer........

I'm still waiting to see what was wrong comparing Hillary Clinton with Shirley Chisolm. Patsi said I was digging a hole and I'd like to know what was wrong with the comparison.
--bye bye

what happened to you now know how to evaluate the accusations?

I'm actually looking forward to it. Maybe we can find a reporter who can get removed from the floor like in the 60s because it's so chaotic.

Sorry Sturg, but I didn't understand your question.

Since Mr. Dem has brought up the race issue---

Tonight MSNBC went into full attack mode after Hillary won Kentucky
by 65 to 30. Every pundit stated or suggested that the only reason
Obama lost Kentucky by such huge numbers was because these
are non-educated, poor, working class dumbies who refuse to vote
for a Black person.

CNN and MSNBC constantly use the race card.

Why isn't it racist that 98% of African Americans are voting for Obama? Are they racist against Hillary? Would they all be voting for Obama if he were white?

Hillary and Bill Clinton did not use race in this election. But, Camp Obama
and the media did use sexism and were clearly misogynistic. (refer to my earlier post "Why I'm A Democrat And Can't Vote For Obama)

I'll bet you will be on the floor in Denver -- maybe burning the city? Is that the threat?

One, if I remember correctly, MSNBC pointed out that in states where there was a very low African American population, Obama did very well. The theory is that there's no history of racial tension so he's judged on his merits.

In states where the AA population is 10%, but less than 14%, Hillary wins because there is a history of racial tension. And lastly, in states where there are high numbers of AA's, like 33% in Mississippi, Obama wins because he's able to counteract lower income whites who won't vote for him on the basis of race.

That's not the race card, just the demographics of the voting patterns. As for the AA vote, it's easy to think African Americans vote simply on the basis of race. If that's the case, why did Clinton hold a 65% to 35% lead with African Americans over Obama in Oct. 07? No, African Americans moved to Obama for a number of reasons. Qualified candidate. Policy. And yes, he's African American. But so what? Irish have always voted for favorite son Irish candidates. Polish for Polish. Italians for Italians. Women for women. Nothing revolutionary about that.

If you don't want to believe that the Clinton's used race in this election, I'm not going to try to convince you. But I wonder why you would try to convince Obama supporters that their candidate used sexism to advance when you have blinders on yourselves?

Patsi, I'm a lover not a burner.

Mr. D,

You missed my main points. The media intentionally misinterpreted and used
spin to paint the Clintons as racists. I heard all their statements that were
supposedly racist and they were clearly not. I'm a fair minded person and
heard not one racist comment from the Clintons.

You and I are obviously listening to the same statements and hearing
very different messages. Of course, Obama pundits--most of media-- wove
innocent comments by the Clintons into racist remarks. It served their
purpose--to get Obama elected as the nominee.

Sorry. I don't buy your "Clintons are racists" propaganda, with all due respect.
It's beyond absurd.

Fine. I'll accept that. For one, I know the "fairy tale" statement was unfair when it came to characterizing Bill Clinton.

That said, can you understand how Obama (and African Americans) were offended by Geraldine Ferraro?

Good night everyone. Writing time is over.

Good for Craig! He pointed out once again on MoJo this morning that the media has crammed Obama down our throats. Mika then said through gritted(sp) teeth what a pleasure it was to have Craig on again.
Love it.

Mr. Dem: Thank you for acknowledging that the "fairy tale" statement was unfair. I believe that the "guns and religion" comment used to call Obama an elitist was unfair also.

As for the ABC transcript, not to sound like I'm wearing a big tin foil hat or anything ... after watching how the media has covered George W. Bush's ass during his administration by editing his remarks in transcripts to make him sound coherent, I am a bit skeptical when it comes to transcripts. I remember several instances of O'Reilly, Rush and Lou Dobbs editing the transcripts of their shows to remove controversial remarks.

Just wanted to clarify that, and even if it was Clinton that brought up Jesse Jackson, how is it racist to comment on another AA candidate's showing in the state during presidential primaries? When reading Tapper's transcript it is apparent that Bill Clinton was being Bill Clinton. He is known to give historical perspective when he talks with the press. It wasn't like it was out of character for him. Additionally, if you read the transcript the reporters were already asserting that Clinton had engaged in some questionable behavior so the notion that Clinton was the one that interjected race by the mere fact he uttered Jackson's name is not entirely accurate since it seems as if the reporters were hinting that Clinton had already done something wrong.

Just a thought.

Prof Marcia: You have a stronger stomach than me if can still watch MSNBC's primary night coverage.

I opted for the Cubs/Astros, Tigers/Mariners games. The Tigers/Mariners game was every bit as ugly as MSNBC's election coverage though. LOL

I apologize for the intrusion and the length of this post. However, in light of previous discussions it goes a long way in describing who and what Bill Clinton really is.

An excerpt from 'The Last Black President":

Since George Washington, former presidents dutifully retired into oblivion. In the 18th century it mean a few years back on the farm. In the 19th century they took world tours. Grant did, the Lincolns were planning one. In the 20th century, Teddy Roosevelt went to Africa on safari, to kill lions. Even into modern times presidents retired to private lives. Truman, Eisenhower and Nixon were never seen tromping off to displaced persons camps or holding starving black children in their arms.

Now, I love Ronald Reagan and he did some very nice things for a charity I co-founded (see Reagan on the National Charity Dinner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cgrUujoy9E ) and G. H. W. Bush has turned down some lucrative speaking gigs to help raise money for floods and tsunamis. That’s all new for a retired Republican by the way and should surely be applauded. And Jimmy Carter always wins the former presidents’ awards. I also appreciate what he and former president Bush, Senior have done for my charity. There is just something pure and wonderful about seeing Carter up on a roof pounding nails instead of using a power point presentation at a board meeting of a charitable trust.

But the truth is this, for every nail Jimmy Carter pounds into the roof of a new home for an overweight American living below our exalted poverty level, there are a thousand starving Black babies in Africa who owe their very lives to the work of Bill Clinton. It is more than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton could ever do for their own. Here is a remarkable thought. It is very likely, as of right now, that Bill Clinton has raised more money for charity than all of the retired American presidents in all of American history combined. And the biggest share of that fundraising has gone to Africans in need, ignored by most of the world.

Bill Clinton is no racist. What is truly shameful, but typical, is that I have to be the one to remind you of this.

Yes, he made some missteps this week but we don’t really know the details. I have been on the receiving end of mindless stories where everyone is sure they know what they are talking about and where hypocritical people look sanctimonious and people doing their job look bad and none of the detail or circumstances or context is really known and the media spins it for their own selfish ulterior purposes, unseen by the public.

Life is complicated, especially politics. Billy Graham made mistakes in his conversations with Nixon, in his illegally retained income investigated during the 1970’s but it doesn’t mean he isn’t Billy Graham. An innocent Mother Theresa was scandalized when it was learned she had leant her name and picture to fraudulent fundraisers. But it doesn’t mean she was no longer Mother Theresa, a saint. And this week does not mean that Bill Clinton is not Bill Clinton.

In their understandable rush to get a Black president into the White House, the Black community would do well to pause and think about the last time they had a Black president. There is no way that Barack Obama can do more for you, appoint more judges, pass out more programs than Clinton did. In fact, you know he will have to do the very opposite to prove he can govern all groups, not just yours. You know, with all your pride in his ascendency that you are destined for some disappointments and unrealized expectations if he wins and you leaders now lambasting Bill Clinton will probably have less face time in the Roosevelt Room with Barack Obama than you ever had under Ronald Reagan. You know that will be coming if he wins.

So perhaps now you should slow down a bit and consider the record of a man who has loved you all his life. If he had been president he would never have been too busy or too remote to leave you stranded on rooftops in a New Orleans flood, in 90 degree heat, without water or toilets. He would have been there immediately, at your side. And now that it is his turn to be stranded up there alone for a few hours or days, until this story passes, you would do well to go to his side, no matter who you eventually support for president. Even if Barack Obama should win, you may one day come to realize that Bill Clinton was not only the first but also the last “Black president” you ever had in your lifetime and he certainly does not deserve to be called a racist.

About Doug Wead
Doug Wead is a presidential historian and New York Times bestselling author. He co-founded Mercy Corps in 1979 and served as special assistant to the president in the Bush, Senior White House. Recent books include All the Presidents’ Children and The Raising of a President. He is the editor of www.whitehouseweddings.com

First time Commenter:

O.K., ladies, (and "whitey"), get ready for the courtship (wooing) to begin. Be on guard for the false flattery, charm offensive, empty promises from the guy who wants a "one night stand" (In Nov), but who never calls again.

Stand Strong! Send him on his way!

Mr. D

"You let me know. Has she had ONE, just one instance, when she used racism to advance her candidacy? "

This is a straw man argument using a question as an attack. When we charged sexism, we provided specific quotes that we found either sexist or insulting to women to go with the charge. We didn't say, "don't you see even one sexist remark?"

Now it is your turn. Supply specific remarks or acts said or done by the Clintons or their surrogates or the media that were racist in content or motive. Then ask if we agree.

Mike,

Thank you for a truly thoughtful and finally accurate account of Bill
Clinton's contributions to the Black community.

The fact that the media (and Camp Obama) have tried to portray the Clintons as racists will surely go down as a shameful part of American history.

Russert was just on MOJO spewing the Obama campaign talking points again. "Oregon is a swing state." Oregon has gotten more and more liberal in the last 20 years and, if Oregon is in "play" this fall, then the Democrats have way more worries than I originally thought. I dare say that Oregon is now more liberal than Washington because even Eastern Oregon (Bend) has become very progressive.

Bill Richardson must be trippin' if he thinks that Dems are gonna fall in line behind BO. Our party has been hijacked by left coast liberals & the media who decided to put up their own candidate.

Way to go Hil'ry. KY & OR combined, more votes than BO. Who else could get a turnout like that if considered to be a political gonner? Not Bill Richardson, I assure you.

Craig - Nice job on MoJo. And, yes, we will be ATMing when BO loses the general.

Craig was good this morning. I just wish they gave you more time for conversation than setting up the structure with Buchanan.

'The Last Black President":
Thank You Mike

And Craig, good job on MOJO. I would question the pundits saying that "no electoral map for this fall shows Kentucky going blue" (Russert said this yesterday.) I think Clinton could win Kentucky, don't you? Bill won there twice. Why not?

The general won't be about voting against BO, it will be about teaching the DNC a lesson. We are all Kerry-ed out and we're not gonna take it anymore!!!

patsi - Exactly, sexism = yuk, yuk. It wasn't the last word of the Imus sentence that got him fired.

Today's task: What would you use as an avatar?

Welcome to the blog mamamimi. Put on your protective gear & try to enjoy the ride. (Things aren't always this ugly.) I see you picked up on the fact that BO will cave to pressure, put on his flag pin & suck up like a good, little politician when forced to do so. Very insincere. Also, too arrogant to visit the good people of Kentucky. PaddyB is right about it being too late for BO to go campaign there & bring 'em into the fold this fall.

WRITE-IN FOR HIL'RY!

Wolfson, Clinton's communications director has said that "we will have a nominee by 6/15."

So, this is NOT going to the convention for a floor fight.

Hillary supporters have three more weeks before they have to decide what to do. They have 4 options:
1. Follow Hillary's endorsement and support Obama
2. Vote for McCain
3. Write-in Hillary
4. Don't vote
It will be a tough decision involving many factors such as anger, feelings of betrayal, paranoia, racism, and depression.

Good luck with that.

Obama haters should realize that Hillary is going to run around the country for the next 5 months telling everyone what a great human being Obama is and how well-qualified he is to be President.

Every time she says something particularly complimentary, I'm going to post it here.

Then you can attack her.

nash,
you're arguing with yourself.

lanny davis coming on imus show now.......

Nash,

I've seen charges that Sen. Obama can be rude and insensitive, sometimes arrogant, and inexperienced or unprepared for the job.

All of those reflect on qualities that might make him unacceptable for the presidency.

I have seen nothing by Sen. Clinton, her surrogates, or people here (unless by some drop in twit) that smacked of racism or hatred of him as a human being.

If you have, I would appreciate your showing it to me.

Nash...you seem like the one with the anger issues. If you really want to help Obama, your best bet at this point and going forward for those five months would be to just keep your mouth shut anytime you're tempted to taunt Hillary supporters. What is your point, unless you're a one-man McCain sleeper cell who is trying to keep the divisions among Dems alive? Aren't we way past the point of arguing? If you really believe you've won, why are you hanging around on the field dissing the losing team?

As for me, I'm planning to follow Hillary's lead. That will most likely result in me voting for Obama in November. Once I peel away all the media crap and the crap from supporters like you, and look at Obama totally in isolation -- I find it much easier to visualize myself voting for him.

Now...go ahead and taunt me. Find all the "holes" in my logic. Crap all over my supposed motivations and personal biases. Go ahead and flush my Florida vote down the stool.

Say anything stupid.
Just piss me off.
I dare you.

"Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character."
~ Margaret Chase Smith

I think that sums it up for me.

NoBama '08

Hey
good morning

Peeeuuuuu
What a stink
Do you people really enjoy playing with trolls.

Hey
my advice
"westling with pigs only gets you dirty but the pigs enjoy it"

Or something like that.
LOL

Hey
McCain is behaving in an unbush fashion.
LOL
darn he is always doing that.

He has a interview in Essence Magazine
He is reaching out to everybody

very good interview
if you missed the link yesterday
http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/voices/0,16109,1807698-1,00.html

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

"Women earn less money than their counterparts — 78 cents for every dollar a man gets. But they make more than 80% of buying decisions in all homes." Business Week Online

Odd that the MSM would actually want to insult women, on a regular basis, that hold hold so much buying power. One would think that their sponsors might not be pleased .... oh I forgot, they only advertised Viagra, cell phones and Prison shows.

Hey all - I have been busy wrapping up my job - and now it is time for my "retirement" for the summer.

Anyways, it looks like McCain really came down on the wrong side of the diplomacy debate...at least according to James Baker, Chuck Hagel and Craig Crawford. Sounds like pretty good company...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/james-baker-talking-to-an_n_102674.html

http://www.nytimes.com/cq/2007/07/25/cq_3159.html

mornin' all.

hw, if you're around, I've done a little browsing on the corporate-private citizen decisions of the SCOTUS decisions of the past 2 terms (before that the makeup of the court was different and not predictive of the current court's bent IMO). The court has been relatively quiet on the corporate law front over the past 2 terms. The most significant case was the Phillip Morris case - which restricted punitive damage claims that punish a company for wrongs to other persons who were not plaintiiffs in the case. While that does offer some protection to the corp. involved, it's hard to say it is at the expense of the rights of the individual, at least the individual involved in the case. I believe that case was decided correctly - only because the case itself exposed the company to damages based on conduct already considered in prior cases where the plaintiffs in those cases would be foreclosed from joining in that suit. A prior, pre-Roberts court case also limited punitive damages to a multiple of actual damages (normally up to a multiplier of 10), which is consistent with that ruling's bent. The little guy has been hit in other cases - the CT takings clause case being the most significant. That technically involved a corporation, but it was a municipal development corp. acting under the color of the state, so it's really not a corporation v. little guy issue case - it is a state versus citizen case. It would be a bit of a stretch to generalize too much based on those cases. Someone with an ear closer to the ground in corporate cases might have a better and different view of those cases.

And the race goes on. There was some talk about a resolution to seat half the delegates from FL (&MI?). Did I hear that correctly? I was admittedly distracted when it was discussed.

A bitch is a bitch is a bitch = Hillary Rodham Clinton (Yes, I’m still here and read often…same old crap except for a few)

In some way I would like the bitch to somehow steal the primary, even though I’m for change, honesty, intelligence, and sound judgment = Obama. Why? Well, I would like to put it to bed once and for all that too many people absolutely hate HRC. She claims Michigan and Florida must be counted when in her own lying words she said they would never be counted. You cannot count on that woman to tell the truth ABOUT ANYTHING!!! What about Iowa, Nevada, Washington, and Maine. Shouldn’t their popular vote be counted? Oh, yes, I know there is supposed to be this formula to count those votes, but anyone who knows the truth about it says it is not a legitimate count.

Let her and her other bitches (and the bigots and dumb racists of WV, SE Ohio, KY) steal this thing just so the young, new registered voters, Obamicans, other older white females who never supported her such as me, and all the black voters STAY HOME. SHE LOSES. Oh, that would be so, so beautiful. Clinton done for good! Gone! Kaput!! It would almost be worth destroying the United States with the old man McBush winning, which would most certainly happen if she steals this thing. More money to the sinking sands of Iraq. No reduced taxes for those “working whites”. No student loan assistance. More taxes for seniors. More and more $ to the oil companies. More droning on and on and on and on for four years!

Great interview from Hagel:

"I'm very upset with John with some of the things he's been saying. And I can't get into the psychoanalysis of it. But I believe that John is smarter than some of the things he is saying. He is, he understands it more."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/chuck-hagel-takes-on-mcca_n_102775.html

Hi Karolenna...I think your computer accidently just posted something that you wrote about two months ago and was highly relevant at that time.

warren, you're a corp type. what's your take on the Roberts Court record on corporate v. little guy cases?

What you planning to do this summer? Get a tan and try to catch STDs?

Hey Warren...welcome back. I was worried about you for awhile there.

Hey

LardassLiberal

I am who I am

the sig file states that very clearly
Thats why I keep it

LOL
that it Irritates
you hyper partisans
Republican or Democrat

So what

I'm not in the hyperpartisan club

never gonna be

Hey
"cutting edge"
That's an illusion you left wing types pursue

good luck with it

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

mornin' karolenna - coffee particularly bitter this morning? A little vinegar in a pot of water run through the coffeemaker to clean out the crud might help.

UB, don't women actually make the purchasing decisions for 2 of the 3 things you mentioned? LOL

Dexter and All,

Before Ham Jordan ever knew he had cancer, he had founded with his wife (a pediatric oncology nurse) Camp Sunshine.

Then he was diagnosed. His first condition (or its first iteration) was NHL: he was among the first patients to be treated with what remains part of its frontline treatment, CHOP.

It was during his second cancer that he wrote what is, for me along with Evan Handler's "Time on Fire: My Comedy of Terrors with Leukemia", the best book to read when you've started your first treatment rounds.

Camp Sunshine is the template for both Paul Newman's Hole In The Wall Gang Camps and the Imus Ranch.

I am sure that Imus paid tribute to Ham Jordan this morning: they always supported each other's efforts in helping kids and their families.

I'm attaching the link for Camp Sunshine. You may notice that while Dorothy Jordan is mentioned there, Ham isn't. Ham was hamish and felt all he did was support his wife's training and talent.

If you're a mite tired of making donations to presidential campaigns.... Camp Sunshine takes money, too.

http://www.mycampsunshine.com/

Another charm offensive from the Obama crowd. How can we possibly resist such a heartfelt seduction?

Pugnacious

There is a difference between aggravation and boredom. I even get bored with my email signature and it has the advantage of being witty:

A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that." Douglas Adams

karolenna (the extra long grain gripe),

Please stick around.

Just as I collect Bri-Bri's poopinionating, I might as well start harvesting yours for the petri dish.

Can't wait until the two of you sound like Bushies defending Duhya: the DNA's already there, perfectly malformed for the years ahead should OBrahmin get the job.

Then... should he be there... I'll repost your stuff.''

Frequently.

It will be like acid reflux with words. (Or, in Bri-Bri's case, something that rhymes with words but smellier.)

pogo:

I can't speak about all the decisions - but the opinions from the Roberts' court that raised the pleading standards for securities fraud cases were a move in the right direction.

I think the standards are still generous enough that valid claims will move forward - but will knock out some of the more frivilous claims sooner rather than later.

I think the time and money wasted on bogus lawsuits is a huge drain.

lol Pogo, Nonetheless, I believe you were able to understand my point.

I have lived all over the world, but now I live just a few miles from the former Occoquan Workhouse, where women were imprisoned and tortured for striving for the right to vote. The women were arrested for having the audacity to stand in front of Democratic President Woodrow Wilson's White House, holding banners demanding the right to vote. Whenever I pass that place and look upon its dark brick structure, I imagine what those women went through and remember the struggle they survived for this simple right to have a voice in our government. I also reflect on how many people today have no idea what happened there, a place remembered by so few, yet so important for the stand that a few brave women took there, despite all odds, for themselves and for the generations of women who would follow them. Today we are inches close to see the culmination of the dream that those women dared to dream, the dream that sustained them as they laid naked and cold on the bare bricks, or cruelly hung by their wrists, their feet just glancing the floor, for hours on end. When they refused to submit, the guards beat them with clubs, kicked and punched them and shoved them into walls. In solidarity they refused to eat and the jailers used rough iron jaws to pry open their mouths to shove tubes of gruel down their throats. In defiance of such brutality, the women did not give up on their dream. The women of the workhouse while struggling for suffrage dreamed of a day when women would vote, and hold elected office, perhaps someday the highest office of the land. They were able to achieve only part of their dream in their lifetimes. They won the right to vote. The dream of a woman President was a dream that was passed on to the next generation, then the next, and the next, and the next. Brave women stepped up to the challenge of running, never making it very far before the money and the votes ran out, and another generation of women's dreams deferred.

I am entering my 50th year next month. In my lifetime I have seen ten women begin a campaign for President of the United States. Most dropped out of the race before the end of the primary season, except one woman, Hillary Clinton, who is running, still running, for all of us. I am overjoyed that 17 million people have voted for her -- giving her more primary votes than anyone who has ever run for this office. Hillary has given us a voice and a choice to make for our future and our children's futures.

Hillary speaks for me on so many levels. Hillary is running so she can put her tested skills to work on fixing the battered Bush economy, so people can have good jobs that will support a family. She's running to ensure that each one of us has access to affordable health care, which would make a major difference in my family. So my are able to achieve their dreams, they will need college educations that are affordable, and we need Hillary's plan to help middle class families pay for college. Hillary has won the support of veterans and the military because they know that they can trust her to stand firm against the bullies of the world -- just as she's stood up to bullies here at home. As a mother of sons, I am concerned about bringing peace to our world. Hillary Clinton has successfully waged peace, finding a settlement to the violent troubles in Northern Ireland. She alone has the most well-thought proposal to bring our troops home from Iraq. She will bring a new perspective to the world, yes, a woman's perspective, which is so often needed as a counterbalance to male domination. Other nations have elected women to lead them, it's time for our country to elect a woman who is a strong leader, who will stand for all of us. With 17 million votes strong, the dream still lives! Hillary Clinton is that woman for our time, and a President for our country.

If you want to stop bogus lawsuits, just make it so the loosing party foots the bill.

I always perk up when a lawyer says things like "more frivolous claims"..........

What did Lanny Davis say this morning on Imus I missed it.

and "bogus lawsuits"

ie......more frivolous to whom? and bogus to whom?

Can someone sharpen my recollection of election history?

When was the last time a candidate that vritually everyone seemed to consider the nominee of a party lose seven of the last eleven state primary contests by a total difference of over 500,000 votes and lose two of the last three primary races in traditionally party-loyal states by an average margin of 38%, despite outspending his opponent 2:1? Moreover, this same candidate also appears to have a slightly more difficult task of defeating the candidate from the opposing party in the general election.

To press ahead and nominate that candidate, despite these facts, would appear to many to be counterintuitive but perhaps there is some historical precedent.

I kinda like pug's sign off......it moves his point, isnt offensive and is just kinda friendly........and of course it wont do McCain much good in the long or short run......

Copyright © 2008 AFP, 4 days ago:

Pitching his message to Oregon's environmentally-conscious voters, Obama called on the United States to "lead by example" on global warming, and develop new technologies at home which could be exported to developing countries.

"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK," Obama said.

"That's not leadership. That's not going to happen," he added.

Question: If Obama chooses Edwards as his VP, how will John's 28,000 sq. ft. home fit in with this kind of rhetoric? I really liked Edwards but I was always concerned about the hypocrisy (and I have the same reservations with regard to Gore on the global climate change issue.)

Here's an example of bogus: Owners of a Delaware corporation, that has issued shares, is sued by a previous employee stating that he is a partner of the company.

It is a corporation, not a partnership, ex-employee owed zero shares. That is bogus.

I remember back in law school - I thought going to a big firm - I would be defending the "worst of the worst" (i.e., Enron types) against the "little guy"... (But being from a "white working class" family - I sure as heck wasn't let that going to stop me from cashing in on 20 years of hard work ; )

But fortunately - not one of my cases was against "little guys".... They were against big-time plaintiffs' firms that were often representing people who either did not even know about the lawsuit or who did not think they were "ripped off" till some lawyer started convincing them otherwise...

In general, I think that for the most part - the Enron types are the exception rather than the rule. Many of the lawsuits against corps that do have merit - are more because executives got lazy, reckless, short-sighted or just didn't understand the law - as opposed to them meeting in a room and deciding how they were going to intentionally rip people off.

(I think the real problem with our legal system is the lawyers - not the laws. Many lawyers treat ethics as an after thought - and they engage in the same type of "scorched earth" style that we see in our politics. I believe that while that style has its time and place - employing it as a modus operandi is terribly inefficient.)

warren, man do we agree on the frivolous lawsuit thing. In round figures, over the past 6 months I've seen 55 lawsuits brought against our clients in coal silica and asbestos cases go away. Of those 55 cases, we paid money in 3 - the rest were dropped voluntarily. The grand total of money we paid was $33.5K. That doesn't even count the flood cases that the court dismissed before the pleading stage was complete or threw out after the verdict (which involved about 1500 plaintiffs).

UB, that's the English system - in the US, that will never fly, and although I'm a defense attorney, I'm not all that supportive of changing the system like that, at least not on a wholesale level. There is a rule of civil procedure that allows some of that, but it's a toothless tiger in its application.

It was interesting that Donna B. said when all the votes are completed she will support the person with the most delegates. Well that was decided weeks ago so she does not have to wait for that one to be determined. But I thought the role of the supers was that they vote for the person they feel has the best chance of winning in November. If she feels Obama is that person then I am OK with that but to say the delegate count then was she happy when Gore won the popular vote but lost the election due to the Electoral Votes. It appears now that Hillary will have the popular vote but not the delegate count.

QuitFoolingAround: Obama is redrawing the electoral map...no worries.

Ally, I hope he's not just doing that with crayons.

Ally and Pogo,

No way crayons.

He's using an Etch-A-Sketch!

For the summer - I am heading back home to FL - then off to Ohio, Costa Rica, Peru and Brazil.

(Seeing some old friends in Ohio - then off on a "surf about"...)

vad, Donna Brazile has been faking indecision for 3 months now.

9/11, I hope he's better with an Etch a Sketch than I was. The response I'd get from my parents and sister about any of my efforts to draw something on it was "What is that?" They knew better than to guess.

warren - going for Cent/So American STDs. nice touch. best of luck.

I can't believe the supers are being nice to Hillary and wait this out. This is not a game. She does not need that crap. She will do fine just fine. If the Supers want Obama then make it happen right now and end this. If not then they better do their job and pick a person they feel will beat McCain in November.

You're now tuned into the muh'fuckin greatest
Turn the music up in the headphones
Tim, you can go and brush your shoulder off nigga
I got you, yeah

[Chorus: Jay-Z]
If you feelin like a pimp nigga, go and brush your shoulders off
Ladies is pimps too, go and brush your shoulders off
Niggaz is crazy baby, don't forget that boy told you
Get, that, dirt off your shoulder

[Verse One]
I probably owe it to y'all, proud to be locked by the force
Tryin to hustle some things, that go with the Porsche
Feelin no remorse, feelin like my hand was forced
Middle finger to the law, nigga grip'n my balls
All the ladies they love me, from the bleachers they screamin
All the ballers is bouncin they like the way I be leanin
All the rappers be hatin, off the track that I'm makin
But all the hustlers they love it just to see one of us make it
Came from the bottom the bottom, to the top of the pots
Nigga London, Japan and I'm straight off the block
Like a running back, get it man, I'm straight off the block
I can run it back nigga cause I'm straight with the Roc

[Chorus]

[Chorus Two]
You gotta get, that, dirt off your shoulder
You gotta get, that, dirt off your shoulder
You gotta get, that, dirt off your shoulder
You gotta get, that, dirt off your shoulder

[Verse Two]
Your homey Hov' in position, in the kitchen with soda
I just whipped up a watch, tryin to get me a Rover
Tryin to stretch out the coca, like a wrestler, yessir
Keep the Heckler close, you know them smokers'll test ya
But like, fifty-two cards when I'm, I'm through dealin
Now fifty-two bars come out, now you feel 'em
Now, fifty-two cars roll out, remove ceiling
In case fifty-two broads come out, now you chillin
with a boss bitch of course S.C. on the sleeve
At the 40/40 club, ESPN on the screen
I paid a grip for the jeans, plus the slippers is clean
No chrome on the wheels, I'm a grown-up for real

[Chorus + Chorus Two]

[Verse Three]
Your boy back in the building, Brooklyn we back on the map
Me and my beautiful beeeeeeeitch in the back of that 'Bach
I'm the realest that run it, I just happen to rap
I ain't gotta clap at 'em, niggaz scared of that black
I drop that +Black, Album+ then I back, out it
As the best rapper alive nigga ask about me
From Bricks to Billboards, from grams to Grammys
The O's to opposite, Orphan Annie
You gotta pardon Jay, for sellin out the Garden in a day
I'm like a young Marvin in his hey'
I'm a hustler homey, you a customer crony
Got some, dirt on my shoulder, could you brush it off for me?

[Chorus + Chorus Two]

You're now tuned into the muh'fuckin greatest

Best rapper alive, best rapper alive

Pogo: Donna is "undeclared" not "undecided." That's her story and she is sticking to it.

p.s. Love the crayons and Etch-a-Sketch comments from you and 9/11. You guys are meanies.

warren and pogo - with regard to so-called frivolous lawsuits, frivolity is in the eye of the beholder. Lower court judges have an obligation to knock out frivolous lawsuits at the outset, but one person's load of s*** is another person's meritorious issue.
In the UK, complex tort cases are now handled by special law judges with corporate expertise and without a jury. Of course, our Constitution guarantees each of us a jury trial, but I have wondered if class action suits might be handled differently, as not per se involving the rights of an individual citizen.

good morning gang.....

been working hard lately...... not as much time to blog as I'd like at this time of year......

"Another charm offensive from the Obama crowd. How can we possibly resist such a heartfelt seduction?"
Jamie..... so succinct.... and all that needs to be said of all the latest mudslinging.....

Alicia & prof. Marcia..... great posts..... I admire you 2.....

Mike.... thanks for that perspective on Bill Clinton....
I will not and cannot forget Obama's trashing of his presidency.....

Patsi & KarenGA..... good going last night!..... I admire you both also....

Craig..... thanks for the video..... I enjoyed it as always.....

Alicia: I enjoyed your 9:30 am post...

vadaryl: Many of the super-Ds are waiting because Bill and Hill have a long history of retaliation against anyone who crosses them.

Alicia:

That was a great post about the "dream". But I do think you should take some comfort in the history that HRC's campaign has already accomplished.

The debate was not whether Hillary was qualified to be President or if she was ready to be Commander-in-Chief - it was whether her opponent was...

(I think the biggest problem Hillary faced was that she was a Clinton as opposed to being a woman. And like I have said - I always thought she would have done better if she embraced the fact that she was a woman - instead of embracing the fact that she was a Clinton, i.e., I have been there - done that - and can do it again. Not the best strategy when the Country is looking to move forward. But of course celebrating the fact that we were electing the first female President of the United States would have fit into America's hunger for change perfectly....)

Listening to Hillary's "victory speech" last night I thought of this...

"Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."
-Euripdes

And let's forget about putting HRC on the Supreme Court.

She has spent her life becoming a great politician - so let's keep her doing what she knows best.

There are plenty of women that could be appointed to the S. Ct. - without bringing all the politics with them.

vadarryl: The DNC is caught in a trap of its own making. The very small delegate difference is a reflection of the flawed weighted-delegate system. When John King displays the county by county map, what is happening is very clear.
Interestingly, Sen Clinton's campaign staff did not see this delegate math as clearly as did David Axelrod (the new Karl Rove). Axelrod and his Chicago pols saw from the first that two things were necessary
#1 - that they overwhelmingly win the Iowa caucuses, which they did, with some help from a corrupt bargain with Bill Richardson
#2 - that they convince African-American voters in So Carolina (from which all else would follow) that the Clintons were racists (see their talking points memo).

I continue to wonder about Rev Wright's quoted remarks "we have groomed him for years" -- and "we always knew he would have to break with me." BTW, where is the Rev Wright these days? No more speaking out? No more defending himself? Anyone else think the whole flap was a staged event?

OK, we admit it. Obama is a terrible candidate and will probably lose. We are doing this because we hate hard-working white people, women, and people with Confederate flags on their pick-up trucks. We just want to make you suffer. It doesn't make any sense at all, but we're all just CRAZY.

I hope you will forgive us.

-The majority of Democratic primary voters

warren: I observed a while ago that, awful as it might be to imagine, that if President Clinton had not survived his bypass surgery, Sen Clinton would likely now be the nominee. I believe that the idea of Pres Clinton "back in the White House" really did bother a significant number of voters, including a number of starchy women who blame Sen Clinton for not divorcing him.

The rev is suppose to preach in Philly soon. That should be interesting.

Maggisd -- Staging is very important in the Obama campaign -- which is about 95% staging. I saw it first hand at the Virginia JJ dinner, when our governor, Tim Kaine, gave the Obama campaign free reign over the set up and the line up. There was definitely staging to the Des Moines event last night. The Obama campaign kind of reminds me of those movies where there are great production values, but the plot is weak and the acting is uneven at best. I've had the same thoughts as you regarding the Rev. Wright encore tour -- it did seem a bit over the top and staged to lend an air of pathos to the Obama narrative.

sturg:

"more frivolous to whom? and bogus to whom?"

In the eyes of the law.

warren: With regard to HRC on the Supreme Court, I agree. I do not see that as the place where she can follow her passion.
In fact, given the dynamics of the Senate and the committees on which she serves, I wonder if she will even run for the Senate again. What can she really accomplish as the perpetual junior Senator from New York, and speaking from a spot very low on the seniority totem pole on a committee where Sen Webb has become the star turn?
If Sen Obama offered her HHS and promised her a free hand, she might be tempted. Otherwise, I kind of think she'll join or form a foundation dedicated to children's issues.

Maybe the Rev was a staged event. Who knows? Be interesting when he does show up in Philly what he says. You know the cameras will be there and this guy loves the attention.

Speaking of a frivolous lawsuit - just saw on Mojo some group is trying to remove Wi-Fi from public buildings because they claim people are "allegic" to it...

You know how much money will be wasted on that - and how that money and resources could be put the better uses...

Alicia: I regret to say that I continue to think Sen Obama is all borrowed ideas, stagecraft, and grand rhetoric (I have heard BTW that he has up to 20 speechwriters).
I particularly resent the comparisons to JFK, who had years more experience, and whose ability to think and respond on his feet was far superior to anything Sen Obama has displayed.
There is almost nothing anyone could do to persuade me that Sen Obama is a genuine person -- although a nice beginning might be if he apologized, in his own words, to former President Clinton and Mrs Clinton for having trashed President Clinton's time in office and for allowing his surrogates to portray the Clintons as racist.

It it was not staged and the Rev was mad about being thrown off the bus and he endorses Hillary. Now that would be entertaining. But I do think the two of them planned this all along. It may of come off better than they thought.

maggi, class action suits do three things in our system - they enrich plaintiffs attorneys, the provide a pittance to the class members, and they punish the defendants. The problem with class action suits from my perspective (and I have gotten "invitations" to be a class member in several over the past couple of years - having been injured in no way as a potential class member) is that there is too little control on the front end, which allows plaintiffs who are not injured to sue defendants who did not injure them - in large part at the expense of injured plaintiffs against defendants who did actually cause them harm - both of which groups stand in the same shoes and take from the same pool of money in the same measure. It is a gizmo designed and executed to benefit 2 of the 4 participant classes - plaintiffs attorneys and defense attorneys - at the expense of one participant class - defendants - while doing almost nothing for the last participant class - injured plaintiffs. I defend clients in a variant of class action suits - mass tort actions, that involves multiple plaintiffs and multiple defendants. Trying to figure out who should be paid by whom for real injuries is something much more difficult thanthe proverbial herding of cats. When 75% or more of the cases brought in that context are voluntarily dismissed by the plaintiffs' attorneys, I think I can legitimately say they were frivolous, or at least brought without a reasonable inquiry prior to filing - which is required and sanctionable if not done, but never imposed.

The Dean Plan

"...the following highlights from an obscure study clearly indicate how the plan for Obama's candidacy evolved from Dean's 2003-2004 primary campaign. It should also be obvious that Dean's stamp is clearly imprinted on Obama's campaign, a fulfillment of Dean's dream towards what Donna Brazile referred to on May 6, 2008, as a "new coalition"—it is grounded in the plan.

Please note that the study says nothing about how to actually win an election, just how to manipulate voters and the mass media."

See link for The Plan:

http://rezkowatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/rezkowatch-electability-2008-dean-plan.html

Nash - Has the majority of Democratic voters cast their ballot for Sen. Obama? Through last night's contests, including FL but excluding MI, Sen. Obama has received 16,542,087 votes. That compares to 16,532,959 for Sen. Clinton. [Source: state-by-state data from CNN]. Thirty-seven percent of those votes were cast since February 19 and Sen. Clinton received 569,073 more than Sen. Obama, despite being outspent by Sen. Obama more than 2:1.

These and many other reasons are why the Clinton supporters are struggling to understand why everyone seems to be calling the contest for Sen. Obama. Absent other reasonable explanations, I guess we'll have to go with yours.

vadarryl: I just hope that the media covers the event ... to me this is one of the great unsolved riddles of who Sen Obama really is. If he had to learn what it meant to be a black man in America, why did he choose that church, in particular?
I have lived in mixed-racial and ethnic communities all my life (except for a brief 3 years in rural Indiana) and I have never run across this particular philosophy ... of my few remaining close AA friends from high school, none had ever heard of Black Liberation Theology ... knowing my own history and that of my family for centuries back, the whole ideology just plain hurts my feelings...no other way to characterize it. It makes me just weep ...

Anybody following this Rev Manning. On Saturday he was on the Kevin Miller Radio show on KDKA in Pittsburgh. I am shocked that a powerful station like that would have him on. Check the link for the audio.

Look for:

Trinity of Hell
Pastor David Manning explains to Kevin what he means regarding Oprah, Obama, Hillary and the Trinity of Hell

http://www.kdkaradio.com/pages/419350.php

(I have heard BTW that he has up to 20 speechwriters).

why would he need 20 speech writers? He gives the same speech everytime.

The men who post here in support of Obama are the dumbest in the blogosphere. I think they are concern trolls for Clinton.

pogo: What you describe is one of the reasons I prefer the British system of dealing with class action suits. I worked for many years in the medical field and my best friend is a defendants attorney in the area of construction defect, who specializes in mediation.

I have long thought that the appropriate course for true negligence ought to be criminal sanctions; we all know there are cases where corporations knowingly endangered the public safety, but punitive damages seem the wrong remedy and ordinary courtroom procedure the wrong modality for determining fault.

Maggisd -- I think Senator Clinton has been a back bencher on the Armed Service Committee during her run for Pres. Before that she was purposely low-key so as not to take advantage of her name. She was more concerned about being a team player than a Diva. This allowed Webb to take the star turn. I can see the two of them working very well together.

As far as the future of the election, I can get along with the idea of not caring if a Democrat is occupying the White House, so long as the DEM margins in the House and Senate are improved. Remember the golden rule: The President proposes, the Congress disposes. In the first Reagan/Bush1 years, the Congress pretty well stood up to many things that the Reaganites proposed. Bush1 was a weak president -- no real agenda -- just a "new breeze blowing." Well we took that breeze and blew him right out of the WH, then blew ourselves up when we finally had control of both branches by acting like children let loose in the toy store after hours. I can see the same thing happening if Obama gets elected . I know he's going to "change and turn the page" -- but look at the people he has around him -- they're the same old Beltway insiders who are supposedly guilty of the old-crony government that Obama claims to shun.

Grace: ROFL ... very good.
What he really needs are answer writers ... someone to figure out what he might be asked in a debate or a news conference to help him answer the question. One of the numerous pundits who comment on everything under the sun stated some months ago that Sen Obama did not practice for debates. It shows.

Alicia, maggs:

All of politics is staging. And when you are someone's opponent - you can always point that out.

To me - I thought Clinton's appearances always felt staged and scripted. I watched her Hallmark special and it felt like an infomerical. And I am sure some of Hillary's best lines were written by staffers and all those policies on her website that the Clinton supporters point to again and again - were written by the Clinton machine - not by HRC sitting down at the computer in the evenings.

And I came to like Obama before this campaign ever started becuase - in recent years - he was saying some of the most intelligent things coming out of any politician.

It may be staged - but after following Obama for years, reading The Audacity of Hope and listening to his 2004 speech - he believes what he says. Obama's message is not a campaign slogan cooked up this year by Axelrod - it is based on his life's experience.

Alicia: In actual fact, I would prefer that a very liberal Democrat not occupy the White House, given that it appears there will be an overwhelming majority in the House and a decent majority in the Senate.
I do not worry about the Supreme Court as much as others do. Sen McCain will have to work with Dems and I think, if he is actually elected, he will do so.
As for Sen Clinton as a backbencher -- I believe that if she had not had the Presidency in mind, she would probably not have gone onto the Armed Services Committee but rather chosen one of the commitees more concerned with domestic issues -- health, children and family issues, even agriculture for her upstate constituents. It's a shame, because she really did her homework, learned a great deal, and earned the respect of many in the military who had not been fond of President Clinton.

warren: I am curious ... you state you read Audacity of Hope, did you read his first book? That is the one that worries me.
As I have said before, and there is no easy way of saying this -- it strikes me that most of his life experiences are so outside the American norm that he is almost a foreigner. No, I don't mean he's some sort of Manchurian candidate or anything like that ... just that he lacks a certain gut instinct about the American experience ... when I listen to Harold Ford Jr (to make the comparison more apt) and then I listen to Obama I just see a difference so striking that it worries me.

maggs:

What "very liberal Democrat" are you talking about?

Obama is talking about positions that are consistent with Hillary Clinton - and consistent with the views of the majority of Americans.

(Except of course that he chose not to take two "hard-left" positions that Clinton adopted: (1) withdrawal from Iraq in 60 days "no matter what", and (2) government mandates on healthcare.)

You can repeat the GOP talking points if you want - but just keep in mind that they are not true...

Quitfooling...

Using total votes as a measure is a straw man argument. It would be like saying that total points don't matter during football game. The losing team had more total offensive yards so they deserve to win. The calculus has been, always will be and is, delegates. You have more delegates at the end of the process, you win. You don't, you lose.

Howard Wolfson - Hillary Clinton - Victory Over Barack Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k_t9TdV6vk

warren: I am not trying to argue with you and I do not repeat GOP talking points -- just trying to state my position as clearly as I can.
Knowing little about Sen Obama other than what he says he will do, and the people with whom he associates, I judge that he is farther to the left than I feel comfortable with in foreign policy and far less green than he says he is domestically.

I love the embrace of Harold Ford, Jr. by Clinton supporters. He's easy to project your "non Obama" support on (which in your eyes proves that you're not being racist in your opposition to Obama because you've found a black man you can support). But if Ford WAS running against Clinton, believe me you all would be calling him corrupt. You all think Obama is corrupt because of his association with Rezco? Well, what about half of Ford's FAMILY being in trouble with the law for various accusations? Naw, you'd be sliming Ford faster than you've slimed Obama.

I will read it maggs. But if you are worried about Obama - I suggest you start listening to him - instead of Rev. Wright and his political opponents.

I strongly identify with Obama's American experience. Don't forget that although he spent his childhood in Indonesia - it was this Country that gave him the incredible opportunities that he has capitalized on.

Also - traveling to other countries - and seeing poverty and oppression - increases your sense of pride in America - as opposed to vice versa...

Obama is the Wizard of Oz. No there there.
Twenty speech writers? He stole his speech from his pal Devol Patrick

A liberal in the Whitehouse? What about his pals he brings along with him...so he can bring everyone together. When he sits down to resolve issues will it be Claire McCaskill's advice on immigration he takes
On Choice, will he be sitting down with his close friend Tom Coburn.

His record indicates he is a lot of talk and then cave to industry. Look at his record on health care and on the energy issues. His victory is built on nothing but Clinton hatred. Oh right because he was against the war early. But then he got to the senate and did nothing plus he said he didn't know what he would have done had he been a senator.

Suckers.

Bye Bye / Mr Democrat: Yours would be a perfect argument were it not for delegate weighting. That is profoundly anti-democratic and anti-Democratic. There is no good reason that a vote from South Central should be worth more than a vote from East LA ... the difference involved might have been small ... one or two votes here or there but I'm certain even you would admit that such wierd ideas as a primary / caucus in Texas or a caucus in which no votes are actually taken serve to reward process over performance.

And John McCain is far more to the right on Foreign Policy that I am comfortable with.

After Bush's arrogant and isolationist policies - this Country needs to turn the page.

The problems of terrorism, the environment and famine - are global problems. And they will need to be solved by the major powers working together.

Patsi,
here's some more from that blog:

"In 1972, the year of the highest presidential primary turnout, turnout in the general election experienced the largest decline (5.3 percent) of any election since World War II...

SEEMS LIKE QUITE AN ANOMALY TO ME

"Rather, it is very LIKELY that this fall's election will have high turnout because of the issues which will be in play and the economic condition of the nation."

Most things I read in similar studies indicate inaccuracy of the earlier pre -2000 turnout information, i.e. voter age vs eligilbility determinations, census info.

I'll be the first to admit election turnout is a gamble.

Caps=my emphasis.

I am off to the gym.

Yes we can!!

Mr. D. I see the only thing that changed about you is your alias. Harold Ford did not have the luxury of choosing his family - Obama did have the luxury of choosing Rezko's association. And your position on the popular vote is certainly not consistent with your alias or with the argument your golden candidate has been making since the end of February.

data at Real Clear Politics

Hillary has won the popular vote each of the last three months (with June expected to extend that to four).

Hillary got more votes in March than Obama got.

Hillary got more votes in April than Obama got

Hillary got more votes in May than Obama got

Hillary will get more votes in June than Obama got

And Hillary has more total votes overall than Obama has gotten

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/21/lanny-davis-on-fox-news/

Hey

Look who forgot their talking points

"I think you don't talk to Ahmadinejad. You talk to some of the moderate clerics." "
Bill Richardson on Fox
this AM

LOL
Even Obama supporters
know he is faking it on foriegn policy

After eight years of brainless screwups from the right,

We don't need the same from the left.

Knowledge and experience count
We've had 8 years of amateur hour foreign policy
NO MORE
Please!!

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

Warren: The Audacity of Hype and the 2004 speech were made after Obama was first touted as a presidential candidate. How was it that this green, wet-behind-the-ears candidate for US Senate was given such a prominent place in the 2004 Convention line-up?

I've worked in politics for most of my adult life, so I know how important staging is to a campaign. But what I've seen in the Obama campaign goes well beyond anything I've ever seen before, and that's what troubles me the most about your guy. I used to think that W's events were over-staged -- the ever-present scrim as backdrop imparting the message of the day, the Post-Katrina speech with the imported lights in front of the New Orleans church while the rest of the city was still dark and under fetid water, the bunchy flight suit "Mission Accomplished" appearance on the deck of the air craft carrier carefully positioned less than 10 miles from Coronado NAS, the wood-chopping, brush-cutting aw-shucks malapropisms.

Now we have Obama's staging with the chanting and fainting fans; the Flag-Flag-Flag-Flag-Flag-Flag-backdrops of his formal speeches; the carefully-placed-in-camera- range older white women, nodding their heads in time to his MLK homage cadences during his informal speeches; the waterfront park in Portland where likely half of the people attending came across the river from Washington; the use of hip hop music like Jay Z's "99 Problems (but the Bitch Ain't One)" and "Dirt off your Shoulders"; the innovative viral staging of Obama Girl and Will I Am youtube videos; more viral staging with the "Bros before Hos" t-shirts, sold online with a wink-wink; just to name a few.

All this over-staging of Obama creeps me out, and it rings false just like the over-staging of Bush.

;0)

What does this symbol mean?

"All this over-staging of Obama creeps me out, and it rings false just like the over-staging of Bush. "

A lot of the O-bot movement reminds me of Bush.

Bye Bye: You got it ... I'm a racist.

Mr. Democrat - I must respectfully disagree. At this stage of the game, the only metric that matters is the popular vote because it can't be changed. If there's a strawman now, it's the delegates because they aren't committed until the convention. What would be the point of a conventions all these years if it were "always" about the delegates?

It's interesting that Sen. Obama's supporters were all about the "will of the people" until the became clear that half the people preferred a different candidate. Now it's about delegates who can, and will, change their mind before they must commit to a candidate.

Mag,

I agree that weighing delegates is weird. But you begin each contest knowing the rules. I have no problem changing the rules after the contest. But each time you examine the rules and make changes, you can't get mad when your candidate loses.

Good morning, Sheila!

I just listened to the whole interview KDKA's Kevin Miller had with Rev. Manning. I grew up listening to KDKA and I have never heard them have a guest on that said stuff like this guy did. Kevin tried very hard to get him to open up when he said he had rock bottom proof of what he was revealing. Who knows why he is holding back until the right time. Maybe that is what the October surprise is? If it is I feel sorry for all of us. I know KDKA will get some heat from having him on. I am shocked by it.

I don't understand. The rules are about who has the most delegates. Period. Every primary has a candidate who receives a bunch of votes and then loses, just like GE candidates who win millions of votes and lose the electoral college. That's life. It's always been and will be about the delegates.

If someone has already posted this, I apologize, but it's important reading...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/opinion/21friedman.html?th&emc=th

Warren: I certainly do not forget where Sen Obama spent his childhood. It is part of what worries me ... call me a xenophobe if you wish.
I don't think that four childhood years spent in Indonesia gives one a superior grasp of foreign policy. At the same time, that these formative years were spent in Indonesia and that he then studied at an elite private school in Hawaii removed him from what the typical American public school experience. It divorced him, IMHO, from a sort of gut instinct of what America is all about that is just second nature to most of us.

One little difference here with the delegates, there is not enough of them to put Obama over the top so if you like it or not there are superdelegates and they can vote for whoever they want. So if they feel Hillary will do a better job then they can vote for her, if they think Obama can do a better job then they can vote for him. So we have to live with their decision too.

maggi, if you want to see the insanity of the DNC delegate scheme, go to CNN.com and look at Alaska or North Dakota and their vote totals (you may need to go to RealClearPolitics for that), then compare those to Texas. Try and reconcile the delegates awarded with the popular votes received in those states. I can't. But then I'm a one person one vote advocate who opposes gerymandering and the electoral college.

Patsi -- It's just another form of "Hello."

:->

; --p

8> )

Also the Supers votes are not set in stone until the convention. But I don't think they will change their minds but that's the rules too.

So nobody wants to comment on what Rev. Manning is saying?

How you feel about KDKA radio even having this guy on the air?

LULAC sued Texas Democratic Party over primary delegates
By MICHELLE ROBERTS Associated Press Writer
Article Launched: 05/09/2008 02:04:36 PM MDT

SAN ANTONIO—The Texas Democratic Party was sued Friday by Latino advocacy groups that contend the complicated primary and caucus system used in the March 4 presidential primary unfairly diluted Latino votes.

Lulac is not the only minority advocacy group thinking of suing various state parties. The Obama campaign thinks they can win with African Americans and high income white men. Talk about Rovian math.
There are more voters of Hispanic origin.

Okay Mag, you're a xenophobe. Psst...McCain was born in Panama.

Bye Bye / Mr Democrat: As far as the weighted delegates ... that "innovation" was the price paid to keep Rev Jackson working to register voters after his 1988 loss. I had hoped Dukakis would put him on the ticket for VP ... sort of an echo of what Mondale did with Gerry Ferraro in 1984.
(And, as an aside, those of you who think Sen Obama is such a stirring speaker have obviously never heard the younger Rev Jackson in full stemwinder mode... )
Anyway, I did not realize and I'll bet a lot of ordinary Dems still do not know that, along with proportional allocation of delegates, some districts are awarded a delegate share greater than their actual vote, to reward the voters for past performance. Since African Americans have been the most loyal single voting bloc in the Democratic Party, it naturally follows that a candidate who wins an African American precinct will garner, say, 5 votes where a candidate who wins a mixed precinct or an Hispanic precinct will garner, say, 4 votes or fewer.
It is apparent that David Axelrod and his team understood this math from the outset. It is my belief that this was part of the reason that the Obama campaign concentrated so hard on the meme of the Clintons as racists coming out of New Hampshire. They realized that in any large urbanized state where Clinton might win by a substantial margin that the Obama campaign could pick up extra delegates slightly disproportionate to the overall vote.
I do not have access to the type of information that would allow me to judge how many delegates this amounted to. I would guess it is not that many ... it does help explain why some of Sen Clinton's larger victories did not net her as many delegates as might otherwise have been expected.

Bye Bye: I know Sen McCain was born in Panama. Don't forget I'm also a racist.

" Rev. Manning "

Vad -- I can't hear anything, so can't comment on the show.

Maggi -- re: Jesse Jackson in a stemwinder mode. That's the truth. He was something else. But nobody was better than Barbara Jordan.

There must be something wrong with that Super. He must not of gotten word that this race is over. What was he thinking, 35% victory in KY and 41% in WVA, and the his state also went to Hillary and so did the state next door.

That's a big assumption. One, you assume that African Americans are sheep who are easily swayed by allegations of racism instead of using their own brains to make decisions. Two, that the Clintons DIDN'T do things to drive a wedge between African Americans and Obama, which backfired. I think you don't understand the psyche of African Americans. In South Carolina, one of the worst decisions the Clintons could have made was putting Robert Johnson out there as an attack dog surrogate. The Clintons viewed him as a black billionaire worthy of respect. African Americans looked at him as an exploiter of the community who was dancing to the tune of a white man in order to dash the dreams of a black candidate. African Americans who'd been ambivalent to Obama suddenly galvanized in the same way women galvanized around Hillary when men insist that she get out. There are nuances to the Clinton strategy that went wrong in the eyes of African Americans and I think one of the problems is that Clinton supporters can't even recognize them, so they just leave it to the convenient Obama pushed racism argument. Not so.

Patsi: I so loved Barbara Jordan. Aside from a few professional writers, I can think of very few people who used the language as brilliantly as she did.
I think Sheila Jackson-Lee represents her old district ... and although I like Ms Jackson-Lee I am sometimes tempted to write her and ask her to stop trying to be as profound as Ms Jordan and just be herself.

Patsi, I'm still wondering what was so bad about comparing Shirley Chisolm and Hillary Clinton. You said I was digging a hole. What did you mean by that?

Perhaps the end of the story for some but it may just the beginning for Sen. Obama. He'll need a few of those 16.5 million voters that didn't go his way if he has any hope of winning in November. Now might be a good time to give that unity stuff a try before it's loo late.

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | May 21, 2008 11:44 AM

An insult to Democrats everywhere
Mr.Andrew Dice Clay is closer to the truth

You sir are no Jim Farley

You better write Jackson-Lee very, very soon. She was booed during the caucus in Houston mainly because her district went nine out of ten for Obama. She's going to get voted out in the next election because she made the wrong bet.

Mr Democrat: I have little personal knowledge of Bob Johnson. I do know that he is a long-time acquaintance of the Clinton family. I am perhaps so stupid that I didn't see that his remarks were racist so much as dismissive and insulting -- but I would bet money (if I had any to spare) that Hillary was just as taken aback by his remarks as anyone. It is too bad that an apology did not come immediately ... my take is that they wanted to convince him to apologize first.

As for the Obama pushed racism argument ... had there been no talking points memo out of South Carolina, I might agree with you that it was all a series of people speaking out of turn with an unfortunate result. But, there was such a memo and although Sen Obama disavowed it very much later, the damage had been done.

Mr Democrat: Well, that would be a shame and an example of the type of vindictiveness there has already been too much of.

"It is my belief that this was part of the reason that the Obama campaign concentrated so hard on the meme of the Clintons as racists coming out of New Hampshire." -maggisd

You just give Axelrod a lot of credit for being Savvy, then you suggest he would do the dumbest thing in the world for Obama; make him the "Black" candidate who got issues with whitey.

The Obama campaign knew they had to consolidate the black vote to win. That's what they did. Unfortunately they choose the dirty way to do it.

Now they have to live with that. Obama intenified racial polarization and if white lower income voters turn on his campaign and the Democratic Party, he has no one to blame but himself and his idiot supporters who pushed the racial meme.

Welcome to your bed

I didn't say Johnson's remarks were racist. As a surrogate, it was interpreted as the belief of the Clintons, with Johnson as the water carrier.

Another under the radar incident was a Bill Clinton interview on the Tom Joyner radio show, the show with the largest nationwide audience of African Americans (around nine million listeners). The interview was so caustic and so many listeners were so offended that Joyner had to try to defend Clinton four days later. During the interview, Clinton sounded very paternalistic which further solidified opposition to Obama. That interview swept through the black community virally and never got mainstream media attention. By that time, the damage was done.

One thing about the Hawaii private school experience. The public schools in Hawaii are notoriously bad and there is some racial tension, even more so when Obama was growing up. Being a bi-racial child with an absent father and mother, living with haoles would have gotten him beaten up on a regular basis. His tutu was the vice president of the Bank of Hawaii and she no doubt wanted to get him into Punahou, which is a noted prep school in HI. Even though she was VP of the major bank, she was able to get young Barry a full scholarship.

The rap about Punahou is that it is an exclusive, insular school, where lifelong connections are made-- just as they are in the prep schools on the mainland -- i.e. Exeter, Andover, Deerfield, Chate, Woodberry Forest.

pogo...

Just read your 9:05 post. It was enlightening and helps me understand. Thank you for taking the rime to review current SCOTUS business-related decisions.

Rez,

Great point. The one thing the Obama DIDN'T want to happen was to make Obama the "black candidate". By doing so, they'd limit him. But when Clinton decided to make Obama the "black candidate", it helped the Obama campaign because it didn't resonate white voters (to that point) and it helped piss black voters off. Add that to the Clintons using Johnson, Rangel and others to try to tear him down and voila, 92-8 to Obama.

Mr. Stupid

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/story?id=4130101

On the Tom Joyner syndicated radio show today, Bill Clinton continued to defend his wife's record on race.

"The only racist comment made in this campaign is when the Obama campaign called Hillary the 'senator from Punjab,'" the former president said. He also called the idea that Hillary is racist "a stretch," reminding listeners that right out of college Hillary's first job was knocking on doors in poor neighborhoods as part of an effort to stem the rise in college drop-out rates among blacks.

Mr. Stupid
Keep it up. All you do is drive people farther and farther away, You think you can win with your coalition.
Good luck with that. How much is the GOP paying you

Oprah made Obama the black candidate when she went to SC and said...it's out turn

And it didn't help for the campaign to call the voters of NH racists

Take responsibility for the actions of your own campaign You made him the black candidate no one else.

WATB

You've got to love the intelligence of a person who calls you "Mr. Stupid" and then rails against you for "driving people farther and farther away".

Did you find the reaction of the African American community to Clinton's interview? And did you listen to the interview?

Rezdog: I am not saying that Axelrod tried to make Sen Obama the candidate only of the black community. But, without the solid support of that community, Sen Obama could not have had the spectacular success he did in the early primaries. And Axelrod knew it. Given former President Clinton's standing in that community heretofore, it was necessary to diminish both of them.
Sen Obama never was allowed to position himself as anything other than a man who transcends -- not just race -- but ordinary politics. And he speaks well on the subject. I believe he is sincere (not so sure about Michelle).
What Sen Obama did, while not leveling any particular criticism at President Clinton (other than the comparison to Nixon, which he surely at least had to suspect would really anger Clinton) was to lump his Presidency into the theme of the past 20 to 25 years as static, with no gains and no change. Note here that he carefully avoided the Carter years, knowing that Carter and the Clintons do not get along and also knowing that many on the left find Carter's position on Palestine to be admirable.

maggi, I wouldn't worry about not knowing that stuff. I'm one of the few Clinton supporters here who will vote for Obama in the Fall in SPITE of the bullshit abuse shoveled by some of the Obama supporters here. I pump my own gas, I pour my own coffee, and I pretty much ignore the asshole comments.

hw - you're welcome - it helps me, too.

lunch

Bye-Bye -- here was what yousaid: " Too often, baby boomers can't let go of their old 60s and 70s battles and see every election as either a validation or repudiation of policies that were established forty years ago. If Barack Obama is McGovern, is Hillary Clinton going to be Shirley Chisolm?

The hole you were digging started with dissing baby boomers, without whom neither Obama nor Hillary would even be in the race.

The first time I started getting PO'd at Obama was when he discounted my generation.

Next, Shirley's run is in no way comparable to Hillary's. And Shirley would be FURIOUS at the sexism running rampant in the media.

If blacks punish women like Maxine Waters, Stephanie Tubbs Jones and Sheila Jackson Lee for supporting a woman candidate, they'll suffer for it. Those women have done a great deal for their districts.

Mr Democrat: So you would entirely deny that the Obama campaign used race in any way? Just asking...

Mag, what about Clinton's support among women? Would she be in the same position without women?

And Where is Oprah, you say Oprah made Obama the black candidate? Really? Do you know Oprah's audience? Do you know the demographics of who watches her? Come on now, make better observations. You're not making sense.

BTW, Patsi, still waiting to hear what was offensive about comparing Shirley Chisolm with Hillary Clinton.

"Take responsibility for the actions of your own campaign You made him the black candidate no one else."

We'll take that responsibility, great results: OR primary

Black Obama -58%, White clinton 42%

OR 90% white, 1.9% Black

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | May 21, 2008 12:08 PM

The farther from you the better.
I don't have any interest in anything you have to say
you are an abusive assh-le who sits at home posting crap and you think that makes you special

I guess your Mom isn't home so you can use this computer now.

Patsi: As I have said before, Shirley Chisholm stated that she had found sexism to be a greater hurdle to overcome than racism.
It's very sad to me that it has come to this ... I always thought and hoped I would be happy to cast my first vote for either an African-American or a woman (or perhaps both in one), but it didn't work out that way. Although I did vote twice for Rev Jackson, he didn't make it even on to the ticket. And, when the time came, I had to be true to my own ideal of always voting for the woman, all other things being equal.
It was only as the campaign progressed that I came to see that I couldn't vote for Sen Obama even if he became the candidate. It does help that I have met Sen McCain and know several people who are his old service buddies and that he represents the last chance for someone of my generation (not a Boomer) to become President. So....trusting a Democratic Congress to bring him back to the moderate middle ... that's where I am.

Mag, yes. When Clinton tried to marginalize Jackson, the Obama campaign played it perfectly. When your opponent is destroying himself, you get out of the way.

Why is Chisolm's run much different than Clinton's? Could it be that it's as different as Jackson's run is compared to Obama's? That to compare the two would be to marginalize the current candidates?

As for punishing black Clinton pols, that's politics. You take risks and they're going to lose because of it. A district may be better served by having representatives who truly represent them.

In Oregon, Obama Lost Working Class Voters
By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:04:56 AM EST
Tags: (all tags) Share This:
Here is a lesson in reading an exit poll. Even in Oregon, Barack Obama lost working class voters to Hillary Clinton. You will read otherwise at Obama sites, but they will be disingenuous when they do so.
There are two basic characteristics that are used to define working class voters - income and education. In Oregon, a state as favorable as you can find for Obama on this score, Clinton won voters with a HS degree and no college 53-46. In Oregon, Clinton won voters earning less than $30,000 a year by 54-45.

If your intent is to bury your head in the sand, you will include the "some college" group (read COLLEGE STUDENTS) into the working class. Some Obama supporting observers will play that game. But that will not make the problem go away.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/21/12456/2115

Hey WTF,

It's hard to believe the claims of a person who says they don't have an interest in what you say, and then goes on to explain what they think you are saying.

Bye Bye....you seem to think it is only a few malcontents (or abuse victims) here that are angry. Here's just ONE example of posts that are filling up the web. This was on Salon:

"The army of angry women is out there. They ran a full page ad in the NY Times, raising 170k to pay for it in just two days through word of mouth online.

Every time Senator Clinton has been essentially told to take her boobs and go home by the pundits, I have contributed to her campaign. I didn't start out supporting her and I'm not exactly her precise demographic either as a Gen X, retired military officer with a post grad and JD from so called "elite" schools.

The snide comments here at Salon and at other so called liberal sites make me want to write her in or vote for Mike Gravel whose stances on issues most closely resembles my own.

I feel like Senator Obama's supporters assume female Clinton supporters will just fall in line and vote for him in the fall. Must save Roe is a bit stale. As things stand now, I don't think it will be that easy. Votes are not guaranteed. I won't be voting for someone in the fall just because they are less sexist than the other candidate"

Mr Democrat: Hillary would be nowhere without women ... no doubt about it. I make no excuses for the fact that she is a woman and a lot of women support her for that reason alone. We know what we know.

I said nothing at all about Oprah. Nothing. I have read, however, that she suffered a kind of backlash among her viewers and a loss in ratings after she campaigned for Sen Obama. I thought her speech in SC was over the top...but that's just me. I was never a fan, and have seen her show maybe a handful of times. Maybe that's just the way she talks.

Patsi: As to the less sexist candidate ... when it comes right down to it, I'd rather be called a b**** than called sweetie.
As a good friend of mine often says, sometimes they just force you to be a b*****

I never said or thought that only a few women were disappointed or angry. How many African Americans will be angry and disappointed if Obama is somehow pipped for the nomination?

Either way, each side is going to have to move beyond their devotion to the candidate and look at the issues that unite them. If they're Democrats, then they know the planks of the party that are important to them. If they're not, then they're free to vote for McCain, not vote, or do some other type of protest. It all comes down to what is important to you. Is policy important or personality?

In reality, the policy differences between Obama and Clinton are shades of the same gray. The diffs between McCain and Obama/Clinton are black and white. So folks who move from Clinton (pro choice) to McCain (anti choice) must acknowledge that they're voting for McCain's policies. And at the end of the day, do you really want to do that? If you do, I really must question how much you liked Clinton's policies versus her personality.

Approximately 150,000 more voters voted for Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama yesterday...

Posted by: Mr. Democrat | May 21, 2008 12:29 PM

Posters like you have made it possible not to care who gets elected. If you are representative of Obama, McCain looks good.

Also thought it was interesting that MSNBC chose to repeat BO's comments about Senator Kennedy. Way to market YOUR candidate, not the candidate of true Dems. Yes, America's Uncle Teddy did support BO, but the friendship with Senator Clinton is deeper & her comments were certainly more heartfelt. BO is the most arrogant, insincere & ill-equipped for office person since...W.

nash - Even Hil'ry won't get me to vote for BO aka W2 unless she gets to be Cheney & actually run things. He is absolutely the wrong person for the job.

B'rye - Those aren't the bend-y kind of straws...they aren't gonna go for BO in the general & then the Dems will suffer from Kerry-itis for another four years.

Obama makes comments about Teddy Kennedy...he's arrogant? Now you're just silly.

Hey

how is the pig wrestling

Having fun?

I would say
DO NOT FEED
THE TROLL

But what the heck.
It's just too entertaining

No real information

I take that back
Harborwoman
great link to the Friedman column

Helps make my point
The Problems are too serious for a single issue vote.

They are too complex for a light weight.
we've had 7 years of lightweight governance

we need the most experience
we need the one that can build working coalitions
we need someone not beholden to their wingnut base.

That is why over all McCain is a better candidate.

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

"Why is Chisolm's run much different than Clinton's? Could it be that it's as different as Jackson's run is compared to Obama's? That to compare the two would be to marginalize the current candidates?"

Well, for starters, Shirley was never a frontrunner. She was a longshot and she knew it. She was one tough broad, and I loved her. I also really loved Patsy Mink, who made a run that same year. (The right called her Patsy Pink, of course...)

But while I was a feminist I did support George McGovern all the way through the process. I closed out my grad school savings account and gave all $187 of it to McGovern. And I thought because Watergate was already coming to light, he'd win in a landslide. I couldn't imagine the country could vote for Nixon after his dealings were traced right there on national tv -- the whole thing traced right back to the White House. But I was sure as hell wrong.

Hey, Mr.! MY comment was about MSNBC choosing to repeat BO's comments about Sen. Kennedy to market THEIR candidate.

The part about BO being arrogant, insincere and ill-equipped for the job is general knowlege among those who aren't swayed by the cult of personality that the media has built up around him.

Waiting for his fall in the fall.

At no time during ANY Jackson run was he a front runner. Yes, he won primaries, but no one expected him to be the Democratic nominee. Not even Jackson did.

Mr Democrat: Issues change ... gut instinct doesn't. As a registered Democrat, I voted for Gerald Ford in 76, and still wish he had won.
As far as abortion goes, you have Democratic women confused with Republicans. Many of us are not single-issue voters.
I find I do not want to be associated with the Obama campaign, period. Just call me a bitter old white women clinging to my guns and religion -- notwithstanding I haven't gone to a worship service in more than 30 years, have not had a gun in my house since I turned in the only one I ever owned the day after RFK was shot, and I never ever thought I would vote for someone who claimed to be pro-Life. But I will trust the Congress to properly vet any appointments to the judiciary. A man who admires Sandra Day O'Conner cannot be all bad.
I like Senator McCain -- he speaks off the cuff and often says the first thing that comes to mind, but rarely stutters and stumbles to think how not to offend people. When presented with new information about new problems, he says "I need to learn more about that..." And he does.
Besides, he is old ... he grew up in the same world I did ... I like that in a person. ;)

Blue,

I'm guessing it's easier to call 17 million voters victims of a cult of personality than to say they took a look at the candidates and made a different choice than you wanted.

What is the problem with Grant County in Oregon, no numbers yet?

Hey mag,

I actually don't have an objection to the reasons why you would support McCain.

I think your post shows the two different voters. One is looking for change from previous policies and the "older" generations. The other feels more comfortable with that older generation.

Patsi: As a life-long Californian, I never understood how anyone could vote for Nixon...either before or after Watergate. Or for Reagan, either. But, let's face it, we Dems just have a certain knack .... what're ya gonna do.
There are two things that might cause me to vote for Sen Obama ... 1) If he apologizes to the Clintons for what his surrogates have said and implied, and for what he has said to marginalize Pres Clinton's time in office,
and 2) If he chooses someone such as Evan Bayh or Ed Rendell as vice-president.

See Mag,

When you don't think that your own candidate has anything to be sorry for, it's difficult to request the same from your opponent.

Someone just told me they saw a story about a voting problem in KY that they were going to look into but they could not find the link, it came up as a headline and then removed.

150,000 more voters voted for Hillary yesterday than Senator Obama..Thank you voters!!!!!!

Okay, off to watch Manchester United beat Chelsea. Cheers all!

OD do you know why Grant County has not come in with their votes yet?

I don't know about Grant County. I'll see if I can find out.
It is a very small population county..perhaps computer problems..just don't know.

The state counts very fast because so many ballots come in early, are verified and ready to count quickly..

I never said Jesse was a frontrunner. I was comparing Shirley's campaign to Hillary's.

If Obama says Hillary made think I may explode. (Never mind the obvious oh so intelligent "come back" Bri-Bri.....)

1,255,559 Voters voted for Oama and Hillary. That's pretty good when the Press was saying the race was all over.

Mr Democrat: With regard to Rev Jackson. By the time the vote came around to California it was obvious he would not win. I voted for him in all sincerity because I hoped he might be picked as VP ... I thought it was time and I've always been an admirer. And, too, I thought it might help make up for Tom Bradley not winning in 82.
As for the age thing -- maybe not so much age as experience. Or even resume.
Here's the thing...Sen Obama gives a great speech but there is a certain lack of wit and quickness when he is asked questions -- as if he doesn't know quite what he thinks.
Certain things stick in my mind .... "c'mon fellas, I've already answered eight questions" ... or "can't I just eat my waffle" (then go eat it in your hotel room, not out in public in the middle of a campaign).
Little things...yeah, but little things add up. JFK never saw a question he couldn't answer, Clinton never saw a question he wouldn't answer ... John McCain has been known to say, "I don't have an answer for that one." In a certain odd way, Sen Obama actually reminds me of President Bush.

CNN just updated their Oregon figures but still nothing in Grant. It's now Obama 344,410 Hillary 242,266 90% reporting

Oregonlive.com has the Oregon results including Grant County..Click on election results

Thanks OD.

I'm enjoying this blog much more since I began ignoring the knotheads.

Ignore posts by knotheads ( I have three on my list)

"If Obama says Hillary made think I may explode."

My cat jumped on the keyboard as this was posting....it should read: If Obama says Hillary made things better for his daughters again I may explode.

This guy is the phoniest carnie on the midway.

Mr. Dem wrote, "I'm guessing it's easier to call 17 million voters victims of a cult of personality than to say they took a look at the candidates and made a different choice than you wanted."

It's every bit as easy as being called a racist for not siding with BO. It's also true that, if the media hadn't championed him, he wouldn't have had the momentum to get this far.

Blue: When you say the media, I think you likely mean cable TV commentators. For instance, the NYT published information about Rev Wright in 2007, but no one seemed to pick up on it ... I guess the idea of exploring someone's religion is just too dicey a subject. I happen to think that it does have relevance, because knowing a candidate's religious beliefs does help explain who they are.

Geoffrey Feiger on trial to explain why his firm reimbursed employees for making contributions to John Edwards 2004 Presidential campaign.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080521/NEWS05/80521050

Patsi wrote:

If Obama says Hillary made things better for his daughters again I may explode.

This guy is the phoniest carnie on the midway.

With all due respect, what are you talking about? Politics is all about persuasive rhetoric, saying what you need in order to win over hearts and minds.

I mean look at HRC's "I want every vote to count, every voice to be heard, etc." We all know this is simply not true. Her own people hoped the race would be over in February. The notion that HRC actually cares about the voters is absurd. It's politics, and it's about convenience.

I'm not trying to say that all politicians are dishonest, they're not. But politics is all about the power of rhetoric. There are certain things that you simply can't avoid as a candidate. Pandering to the other side in the interest of party unity is one of them.

Don't single out Obama for being a successful rhetorician.

I just used the CNN calculator to play around with the last few states making them 53 to 47%. Hillary wins PR and Obama wins MT and SD. Obama would need 23 supers to get to 2026. The end results would be 2026 - 2011. Look how close that ended up. If FL & MI are included I don't know what the end counts would be but it might be closer than 15 delegates.

Politics: I think some of us have a problem with Sen Obama because he seems to be merely a successful rhetoritician.

vadaryl: Should FL and MI be included in full (unlikely) the delegate count goes up to 2210. It seems more likely that they would be counted at 50%. Still meaning that neither candidate could actually "win" without superdelegate support.

Maggisd,

This is something I've never understood. He's been an elected official for as long as HRC has. How is he merely rhetoric? Indeed, at this stage of the game, the primary/general election, *everyone* is merely a successful rhetorician. Give the man a chance to win the election and begin to implement his policies. If he ends up an ineffective president, then you can say he was nothing more than words. But as my post above indicated, politics is largely a rhetorical game.

Also, I'm curious, what do HRC supporters actually want with Florida and Michigan? Do they want them to be seated as they stand now? Ultimately, these states should be punished for breaking the DNC rules, and the votes should be nullified. But, given that this isn't a likely situation, what should be done? I can see seating Florida in full, but what do you do about Michigan, where Obama wasn't even on the ballot? I'm not trying to get into an argument with this one, I'm just curious.

Nick,

I really enjoy you're sarcasm, that's pretty funny.

Ok, so I'm not going to point out to you the number of ways in which what you just wrote is absurd.

Politics: I am not part of the campaign and I don't even receive talking points, so I really don't know what they expect. They originally wanted a re-vote but Sen Obama's folks nixed that ... now I guess they would like to include the delegates in full, giving Sen Obama all the uncommitted votes ... this would still not give Sen Clinton a majority, however.
All this "they must be punished" stuff sticks in my craw ... the entire thing is artificial in the extreme. I have long been on the side of Michigan in this discussion, as I believe it is a more representative state and yet still small enough in area to be a better test. The idea that after Iowa and NH have done their thing (and the Iowa caucuses are just a mess) we get a candidate is just nuts, IMHO.
As for Sen Obama having been an elected official as long as Sen Clinton .... actually longer. That may be true, but that doesn't move many of us much farther forward. His State Senate records are unavailable, his legislative record demonstrates some inconsistencies that I find troubling ... and, finally, although she was not in elected office, she does have a long record. We know her, we know what she has striven to accomplish -- her plusses and her minuses, as it were.
I am very reluctant to cast a vote to "give the man a chance" ... as you say. I want someone that I believe can actually do the job ...
I speak only for myself, but I have to remind myself that this is essentially the same country and the same electorate that chose George Bush over Al Gore.

Hey

LOL
Obama supporters
You don't get it.
You've got no power over
Hillary people

Obama's only choice?
Give them what they want

or hope he can replace their votes elsewhere

LOL
Good luck with that one.

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

Can at least one of the Obama stalwarts on this site please explain why you keep arguing with (and in the process, further alienating) the Clinton group?

And saying "Because they're arguing with us" isn't a good enough answer. If he has won, he needs to start acting like a leader....which I think he is trying to do. And his supporters should behave in a way that reflects that position.

Instead, by continuing to bash away at Clinton, you're only hurting Obama and the Democratic Party. If your response to that is that the HRC side is talking about staying home in the general or going with McCain, you're sure not giving them any reasons to do differently.

I just hope your behavior here in the past day or two isn't a microcosm of how things are going to go for Dems between now and November.

"I can see seating Florida in full, but what do you do about Michigan, where Obama wasn't even on the ballot? I'm not trying to get into an argument with this one, I'm just curious. "

Both states should have had another vote. But the Chief O-bot blocked it.

Hey

Maggisd

What does a present vote look like when your chosing a supreme court justice?

When you know he is not sensitive to womens issues

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote for divided government
Vote McCain

OK -- I just received a talking points memo from Howard Dean. I'm supposed to contact the Sen McCain campaign about getting rid of lobbyists. The problem with this one, of course, is that I am a supporter of a number of charitable and environmental groups -- as well as unions -- who actually employ lobbyists. I guess some lobbyists are better than other lobbyists and Howard Dean will tell me which is which. Howard Dean!!! Humph.

maggisd wrote:

I am very reluctant to cast a vote to "give the man a chance" ... as you say. I want someone that I believe can actually do the job ...
I speak only for myself, but I have to remind myself that this is essentially the same country and the same electorate that chose George Bush over Al Gore.

Thanks for clarifying my question about the unseated delegates question. We disagree on this issue, but now I have a better idea what some people are after.

In terms of the quotation, we all know that the electorate did not choose W. over Gore, the US Supreme Court did.

Also, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on Obama's skills as a legislator and future president. It's inevitable that politicians are going to have inconsistencies. What frustrates me is that changing one's mind seems to be a crime now in the post Swift Boat era of politics. The very notion of the "flip flop" is lazy and anti-intellectual. So, while I'm sure you have specific charges against Obama in mind, I want to warn against the danger of critiquing people for having multiple positions on any given issue.

Even though I really loathe her as a candidate, I don't criticize HRC for voting for the war, becoming a war monger, and then backing off during the primary season. I'd like to, I just don't think that line of analysis is fair. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe that she's actually seen the light on these issues.

Pugnacious: Sen Durbin will pick the Supreme Court justices if Sen Obama wins. Right after he is named Senate Majority Leader in place of Sen Reid. Which, unless the Dems pick up about 7 seats, will ensure complete stalemate ...

Very interesting article I read today in Vanity Fair. VERY RELEVANT to this and other blogs. It tells how all hell has broken loose in "blogsphere" between Clinton and Obama supporters once Edwards left the race... Edwards who was the "buffer" that kept both sides rather calm.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/06/wolcott200806

Politics: Having heard Sen Clinton's speech in the Senate, and recently re-read it, I believe without question that she did not think she was voting for war, but actually voting to resume inspections. In this, she no doubt had in mind that it remains an open question with many whether Pres Clinton ordered the inspectors out of Iraq or Saddam pushed them out. I suspect that she was assured by members of the Bush Administration ... maybe even GWB himself, that he did not intend to go to war ... as he repeatedly said. I, too, fault her for not being able to stand up and say not that the vote was wrong but that she was lied to or had the wool pulled over her eyes. I think her situation was different than Kerry's who had opposed the first Gulf War (the one that could be justified) and had such a long record of anti-war activism.
As for Sen Obama, my complaints about that part of his record known to me have mainly to do with changes regarding environmental regulation. I do not think that he is as green as he states he is ... this is an area where he rightly could have challenged the Clinton administration...instead he chose to make his comments rather more personal....with all his talk of tea parties and comparing Pres Clinton to Nixon.

maggisd wrote:

instead he chose to make his comments rather more personal....with all his talk of tea parties and comparing Pres Clinton to Nixon.

That's kind of awesome, in a way. What's the context for this, it's quite fascinating. I'd like to know more, I've never heard about this.

Patsi,

"If Obama says Hillary made things better for his daughters again I may explode."

Heard that one last night and immediately wondered which man wrote the line for him. : ) Talk about a man with no clue. Even if he were my candidate, as a woman I would give that one a 10.0 on the male density scale.

maggisd,

He isn't.

He completely reversed himself on liquid coal in his KY campaign -- and tried to hide the commercial lauding his coal coal heart from the press.

What's next?

Barak Obama standing, hat in hand:

Mr. Dem. That's the only way to visualize BO , hat in hand before Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry, Howard Dean, et al saying, "Sorry Boss just couldn't do it in NOVEMBER."

Politics: Are you kidding me?
Sen Obama repeatedly downplayed Sen Clinton's claim of Foreign Policy experience by stating that taking tea with the ambassador was not foreign policy experience.
In Reno, when he interviewed with the right-leaning paper there, he spoke about transformative Presidencies, mentioning Ronald Reagan in particular as a transformative figure. In the next sentence he stated, "as Nixon and Clinton were not." (I may be paraphrasing here).
He's not a fool...he had to have known it would anger Pres Clinton. On the other hand, it demonstrates a lack of historical perspective in that one can point to transformative events in almost every Presidency from FDR forward ...

I have listened just now to both speeches by the two remaining Democratic nominees. I thought BOTH speeches were great.

maggisd,

Yes. He's quite the lanky cauldron of deceits, isn't he?

Next thing we'll find out about him?

Soylent Green is people!

Jamie...any word yet on when your big interview is going to hit print? Be sure to let us all know when it does.

When Democrats Go Post-al

The vicious Clinton-versus-Obama rupture at Daily Kos, the most activist site in the liberal blogosphere, reflects a party-wide split. What really rankles, as Democrats tear at one another, is the free pass they’ve given McCain—and the White House.

by JAMES WOLCOTT June 2008

Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama vie for the Democratic presidential nomination. Photo illustration by Darrow.

It was supposed to be a run for the roses, only to turn into the chariot race from Ben-Hur, with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama grimacing like Chuck Heston down the brutal homestretch, lashing toward a multi-horse pileup. No, this wasn’t anybody’s dream finish.

[SNIP]

Please read the article... I'd like to read reactions.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/06/wolcott200806

Obama's Legacy Makes Kerry look good.

Prof Marcia, thanks. I pass along what you write, and others here also, to those I want to explain how I feel about what is going on in our party. I save myself some time.

I wanted to vomit this morning when I heard Obama say that Clinton helped to break barriers for women. Not only is that not true he helped to make it clear that there are more barriers to women in this day and age
than anyone ever thought. We just thought, a good while back, that we had come a long way baby.

Women, we have lots of work still to do. Remember the sacrifices those women made to get us the right to vote. I think we better get to work and tell this country we're not going to take it, no, we're not going to take it!

Pennsyvannia voted for Kerry big whoop

Civility Break - A trip back to Somewhere In Time

http://www.newhouse.com/grand-hotel-honors-its-somewhere-in-time-movie.html

maggisd,

a lot of us on the left, don't like Clinton for moving the party to the center-right. his "third way" brand of politics left a lot of people feeling alienated. party loyalty shouldn't be the end-all-be-all way to evaluate presidents, two-term winner or not. thing is, he won two terms by going after the reagan democrats, the same group that largely supports HRC. in my fantasy democratic party we would kick them out and move (back) to the left. but, alas, i doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Sorry but I thought it was Toni Morrison that referred to Bill Clinton as America's first Black President. Am I wrong? Was it Maya Angelou?

Clinton signed the "DOMA" on Sept. 21st , 1996. Oh wait , that was a bad thing , wasn't it? Give me a few minutes.

Sorry Mr. Crawford, missed you this morning on MOJO, my dish was down(weather).

So once more we hear how the uninformed, uneducated, illiterate, unwashed masses are the ones voting for Hillary(Politics of Utopia - 2:24pm). Of course this isn't sexism, or misogyny, it's only the opinion of the latte-drinking, upwardly mobile, educated idealists, who say war - how did that happen, is it going to affect my bank account??????

in my fantasy democratic party we would kick them out and move (back) to the left. but, alas, i doubt that will happen anytime soon.

back? assuming facts not in evidence
Why don't you join the Green Party. Sounds like more your style. That means you don't want any of the Democrats who just won special elections for Congress. How Green of you.

EuroTom: It was Toni Morrison. Maya Angelou is a Hillary supporter and wrote a great poem on her behalf.

Utopia

"don't like Clinton for moving the party to the center-right. his "third way" brand of politics left a lot of people feeling alienated."

A lot of us felt that he brought the party back to its solid roots and positions.

Barack Obama can try to reach out to Hillary supporters all he wants -- this is too little, too late. He and his shills on cable have trashed her for months and showed absolutely no respect for the former First Lady and Senator, and us old, female, poor, uneducated, "typical white people" will not forget. I have never voted Republican in my life, but McCain is getting my vote if BO is the nominee.

Politics of Utopia: See, I have just the opposite feeling. In my dreams, the left-leaning, pacifist, HuffPo crowd would join the Green Party and leave the Democrats alone.

We all hear Dodd's pathetic spin last night. Some Obama supporters just don't get why Hillary supporters are pissed. Do you? Well here is a comment from someone with a long history in both Republican and Democratic campaigns. And no given bandwidth and time, I will debate the critics of the following claims at another time.

"Dodd was part of the four-state screw-Clinton sandbagging compact initiated by Obama and Edwards that resulted in Obama and Edwards pulling themselves off of the Michigan ballot for state-party apparatchik assistance in the four scheduled early states. I covered this earlier, but now the details deserve repeating as the Obama camp keeps parroting the BS they used then. Paid off big for Obama in those states, just didn't quite put him over the edge in NH. Dodd reneged on the deal and stayed on the ballot in MI. Openly weaseling both sides of the sandbagging ploy makes Dodd's claims worthlessly self-serving.

There was no similar strategy/deal with Obama and Edwards for Florida because FL came after the four early states. Those four states were only interested in screwing Michigan, which fell in the middle of the four's dates. So everyone stayed on the Florida ballot.

Obama was NOT "just following the rules." There was NO rule from the DNC that a candidate could not be on the ballot, nor that once on they must pull their name off. The only "rule" was his and Edwards' secret private compact with state party ops in those four states to sandbag Clinton and screw over Michigan. They kept that compact secret until the very last minute, then pulled their names from the MI ballot a few short hours before the legal deadline to do so, leaving Clinton with no time at all to respond. (Nice execution on their part, BTW. Apparently no leakage until the strike.)

Since both Obama and Edwards were tanking in MI and Hillary was coming on strong, it no doubt looked like a good play at the time. And it paid off--they got the assistance they bargained for. But I bet Michiganders ARE going to remember exactly WHO "played" their state and screwed them over doing so, and how.

I've already covered the basics of this self-inflicted wound going all the way back to the original screwup of FL and MI. This is just a recap of how it was played at the time of those primaries. As far as I can discern, NONE of the three front-runners broke ANY party/DNC rules in this dust-up. Obama and Edwards snaked Clinton for their own advantage, pure and simple, sneakily but within the rules. Now that it matters how and why it happened that way, Obama is trying to re-write the history because he will BADLY need Michigan and Florida to have a shot at winning the White House. Without them he's pretty much toast."

Tully ht SF

Jamie: Absolutely. Lot of people here have some idealized version of what the Democratic Party is -- or was.

A SURVEY TO ALL PASSIONATE CLINTON SUPPORTERS

OK this is an unofficial Blog survey. Passionate Clinton supporters... Please answer these questions...

Should Barack Obama receive the Democratic Party nomination for President, I will...

(not in any particular order)

1) Do a write-in vote for Hillary Clinton in protest.

2) Will vote for John McCain

3) Will cast my ballot for Mr. Obama

4) Will vote for Mr. Obama IF Hillary Clinton is his running mate.

5) I will vote for a third party candidate in protest

6) To hell with it, I won't vote for anyone.

A secondary list of questions:

1) I am a Democrat

2) I am an Independent

3) I am a Republican but am moved by the stature of Mrs. Clinton and her positions that I plan to vote for her.

4) I view myself as NONE OF THE ABOVE. (feel free to elaborate).

Final question:

The likelihood that the Barack Obama supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters will unite overall out of concern for our country's future and direction is:

Extremely likely

Likely

I can't even predict

Not Likely

Forget it ... this is going to split the party into election day.

Looking forward to Hillary Clinton supporter responses.

Tom

Georgia Date Sample McCain (R) Obama (D) Spread
RCP Average 02/26 - 05/11 -- 53.7 40.0 McCain +13.7

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/georgia.html

CNN is saying that there is 212 supers left, is that the same number if we throw in FL and MI?

Yes, Howard Dean lost the nomination to become head of the DNC. To the victor...

So is the talking point for alienating Clinton supporters for the day forks or straws? I didn't see the memo.

Of note to the sexual and reproductive health community, the two seats in the South were won by anti-choice Democrats likely to join other reality based anti-choice Democrats to work on prevention and education issues, and will be supportive of contraception.

Matthew Hay Brown of The Swamp characterized the issue this way based on Majority Leader Steny Hoyer's comments about the wins by anti-choice Democrats:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/05/13/mississippi-special-third-win-dems

Tom: I am a Democrat from a long line of Democrats. I did vote for Gerald Ford in 1976 and I did switch my registration in 2000 to vote for McCain in the CA primary, hoping to ensure that GWB would not even have a chance to become President.

Now, to answer your question
1. If HRC were the VP nominee, I might vote for Sen Obama, but I hope she doesn't ask and he doesn't offer.
2. Otherwise, I will vote for Sen McCain. I don't believe in throwing away my vote, as I calculate that this is potentially my last vote for President.

As to voters uniting ... not all of them. I predict that a small, but statistically meaningful number of old, white, racist, uneducated women will never vote for Sen Obama, although we will support the down-ticket Democratic candidates.

Utopia 2:42. It really looks to me like Howard Dean and company have just invented your fantasy Democratic party.

Anyone who watched the "Gangs of New York," know what the Democrats used to be, and what they're on their way back to, if we let them pull this off.

maggisd thanks for the reply... I am curious as to why you see this as potentially your last vote for President...

If you don't mind my asking that is, and if it's not too personal.

vadaryl: I have read that the FL and MI superdelegates are not currently allowed to vote ... but I don't know if any of them have been included in the totals thus far. I suspect that Chuck Todd has not included them in his counts, because he has been quite scrupulous in his math.

politically pissed: Gangs of New York ....I love that movie. Since we no longer seem to teach history in this country, I wish there were more movies like that ... at least we'd know something about ourselves. Did you know, BTW, that Aaron Burr founded Tammany Hall? You probably did.

"I am not sorry that folks are disquieted by my report that Republicans have a videotape of Michelle doing a rant on white people. This is not a work of creative fiction on my part. I have it solid from four separate sources–one of whom is a prominent person who also happens to be an Obama supporter. Two of the people I have spoken with–one a Republican and one a Democrate–have spoken directly to people who have seen the tape.

Oh, and guess what. There are recordings of Barack Obama when he was overseas. These recordings–I don’t know if they are video or audio–also will create problems for Barack. I anticipate having more information on this next week."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/21/why-michelle-obama-is-like-the-iraq-war/

Voted for Hillary yesterday. Voting for McCain in November. Obama doesn't need me, my wife or the rest of my family? We'll see. Arrogant Axelrod said "they'll come back". We'll see.

EuroTom: Not too personal. Although not old by today's standards, I have a number of chronic ailments that do not bode well for a really long life. I am the last living member of my nuclear family, and the last living member of my old school gang of friends ... and while I certainly hope to have some miles left in my tank, I really can't count on it anymore.

maggi & vad, none of the FL & MI delegates are counted as having a vote at this point. Here is the breakdown of FL delegates.

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_delegate_selection_to_the_2008_democratic_national_convention

ky marco: Why should we come back? They don't need us -- they're redrawing the map.

pogo: I know ... the question was are their super delegates included in the total of the remaining uncommited superdelegates?

Answers to Tom's survey. You may want some demographics. 57yo, white single female, 2 post graduate degrees in healthcare. Worked since age 16 often two jobs and going to school.

#1. If it is Obama vs McCain. I would like to see a Independent ticket with a Hillary/Hagel. That would be utopia for me. If not then I will be tettering on no vote or McCain. Will wait and see.

#2 I was close to being a yellow dog Democrat.

#3 can't even predict

Carol T

What I do not understand is, why all the hostility toward HRC supporters, when all indications point to BHO getting the nomination?

Tom

2) Will vote for John McCain

1) I am a Democrat (but not for long)

Not Likely

Real Clear Politics:

Hillary won Florida by 294,772 votes.
Hillary won Michigan by 328,309 votes
Hillary won 150,000 more votes than Obama last night in Kentucky and Oregon. She won Kentucky by 249,224 votes while Obama won Oregon by 102,144 votes.
Let's add it all up:

Popular Vote Totals (w/FL & MI)Hillary leads by 174,047 votes (.48%.)
Popular Vote Totals (w/FL & MI and Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA): Hillary leads by 63,825 votes (.18%)
Regardless of what the DNC does on May 31 with FL and MI delegates, the popular votes were certified by the states. Their numbers are real and they must be added to her popular vote total. Obama removed himself from the ballot by choice, not requirement. This is a consequence of that decision. He needs to accept it.

What I do not understand is, why all the hostility toward HRC supporters, when all indications point to BHO getting the nomination?

-Consistency. Staying with the spirit of the NoBama campaign

maggi, I assume not since none of their delegates is qualified to vote at the convention, but I haven't seen that issue addressed specifically.

Tom -- I've thought long about this. In the end, I doubt I vote for POTUS, unless a write-in. It doesn't matter what I do here in TN anyway. That makes my decision fairly painless.

And just one other comment. Did anyone hear Obama's mantra of getting OBL last night? In fact did the word Pakistan come up? I heard Iran and Afghanistan and about how EVERYTHING Bush has done has helped Iran, but no Pakistan or that singular nasty person OBL. Why? Any one have the answer?

Pakistan last week warned the US about making ANY MORE strikes on Pakistani soil. Got that Obama and Richardson? The Gucci government both thses guys claimed would get those militants, allow the US to interview AQ Khan and would stop making deals with the Taliban have not done so. They have even decided not to cover with false stories the US strikes that Musharraf lied about. So who's your Daddy now Barak?That is why Obama didn't talk about OBL.

But McCain sure will and remind Obama about the record of his flip-flopping declarations about Pakistan, his misguided approach in suggesting SOF is our counter-insurgency arm he might even send up the Kyber Pass and how his defense cuts will repair and improve our military. Of course, Obama will simply deflect and talk about how Bush has worn down the military without addressing the future. He will talk about his tough diplomacy. And that is? Come on Barry, spell it out? It will be politics as usual. And perhaps Rez has had time to read the latest warnings about failing to act now on more sanctions concerning Iran if we are going to have any HOPE in CHANGING the course of proliferation. Yep, proliferation, Obama's forte, yes?

And. Anon, I did read your cheap shot. Since I am Jewish your attack on me yesterday is more than absurd. It is obvious that you support a complete capitualtion to China, Russia, Iran, Hugo, and others and call "tough diplomacy" backed up with a stick, war mongering. Then Obama is not your guy, is he? Sure sounds like Rice is upping the ante to look tough in the GE. It is even more hypocritical of you to lament Bush signing a flag when you don't care if a hundred are burned. No, Anon, you continue to slander, but that is fine with me. It just make the lunacy more obvious.

And P.S. Obama talked big on energy last night. Just check out his voting record. Does anyone know there is more than a trillion barrels of oil in the ground here on US soil? Maybe when China is pumping it out media will wake up. Obama's idea is to sue the OPEC countries into making more oil and lowering the price....LOL. And not too few Republicans went along with that brilliant idea. And the money to exploit shale oil? Where is Obama planning to get it, from defense cuts and raising the capital gains tax? So have your fun Utopia and gloat that a temporary coup has given you more band width to piss from. Reality will return as it usual does. And then everyone will look around and wonder where they went wrong. LOL, the record will be quite clear.

Hillary manipulating to gain power? Ha. Just look at that typical gutter deal Dodd, Edwards and Obama did to screw Michigan. No wonder he doesn't want a re-vote. Same old school politics while the Press was firing at Hillary. But there will be a re-vote. It is called the General Election.

Have fun with that.

thanks for the replies so far... I got to go offline... watch an episode of Mary Tyler Moore and then Deadwood and off to bed. Long meeting today. Keep answering the survey if you feel like it...

Cheers...

Tom

PS, Tom -- the Wolcott piece was great. He's one of my favorite writers.

ET:
write-in not an option in Ohio
will not vote Obama
will vote Obama/Clinton

Independent forever

Not Likely

EuroTom: I think what many men, and some young women, do not realize is how really really angry some of us are. They have not lived our lives, so how can they know.
When I see the posts here I realize that we all have similar stories ... worked our way through school, raised our children while working, lived lives of quiet desperation, watching the less qualified male colleague receive the promotion we hoped for, etc, etc ... It is not just about Hillary, it is about the way she has been treated.

the left party....just not the far left wacko left.

Once again your willingness to demonstrate a breathtaking lack of knowledge of history is stunning.

LBJ was never described as left.

Burrito, Obama/Clinton is a wasted vote. You might as well write Obama. Well, I guess that depends on what State you are in. I suggest what Pugnacious does, Split the ticket and vote McCain.

Obama/Pelois might be what you get with your suggestion.

Just a thought.

Does anybody of a list of names who are on the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee that will make the FI/MI decision. I know one of them is Donna B.

I do not think Clinton will take VP slot if offered, but if she did, I figure she would want to win.

I can't stand Pelosi.

unlikely: My ex is in Ohio. He and his wife both voted Hillary. She a life-long Republican will vote for McCain. He has never voted Republican in his life ... says he doesn't know if he can do it. But he is ex-Navy and I am working on him. He won't vote Obama, though.

ET, 3; 1; it will split the party on election day. (and McCain will become the 44th president of the United States).

burrito: Ever notice that Pelosi doesn't seem to like other powerful women? She kicked Jane Harman to the curb and, as far as I know, there are no other women in top leadership positions in the House. I think she's anti-Hillary because she doesn't want there to be a woman in office who outranks her.

Married white female, 47 yo, post college degree.

Since I live in the red state of Georgia my vote is meaningless. That being said, I will not vote for Barack Obama nor will I vote for John McCain.

So ... it looks like I'm not voting for POTUS but will vote straight Dem on the rest of the ticket. LOL Like voting for Democrats means any thing in Georgia!

The only possibility that I might vote for POTUS is if by some miracle there was a unity ticket. Even then, I can't see myself being able to vote for Obama although I would re-consider my position.

just heard -(on fox-so you have to take it with a grain of salt)- that HRC is prepared to take it all the way to the convention! unless fla a mi are seated. cool

On Fox's web site or on TV?

GAKaren -- Isn't it amazing how many Hillary supporters actually are college graduates and more?

My vote for McCain will be about as meaningless as your straight Dem vote ... I live in California. McCain likely to win my county, but not much else in the state.

EuroTom: I think what many men, and some young women, do not realize is how really really angry some of us are.

-and I, for one, will not forget.

I will never be able to think of myself as a Democrat again, as long as I live. I will vote for a Democratic president when I feel him/her to be the best candidate-but certainly not this time-not Obama.

I will vote for John McCain and then Democratic down the rest of the ticket to keep things balanced..

McCain is impressive, and actually likable, in the small town hall meetings. He answers all the questions from the audience without a script, no notes, he has vast knowledge, and has a sense of humor.

Most my friends who are military families are for McCain. They see his experience as a plus for their loved ones. Conversely, they are unconfortable with a rookie like Obama.

I may not vote....have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

Did anybody hear what James Carville is saying today. Wonder if he wrote out the check yet?

Forgot the last question ... maybe I am too pessimistic but I do not see the party coming together by election day.

These rifts are going to be with Democratic Party for a long time. It will take a genuine leader to reunite every one and BO does not have the temperament or ability to do that. Frankly, IMO he doesn't give a crap about the party so it will never happen.

Nelson: Why shouldn't she? Others have done so. She doesn't actually have to do much to take it to the convention ... just not drop out or concede. Then she waits.

In these he was a field operative or grass-roots political ally of both LBJ and Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn,qv who considered themselves leaders of the state party's "moderate conservative wing.

A second, and longer-running, feud that extended through Connally's tenure as governor was with liberal senator Ralph Yarbrough. Divisions between liberal and conservative-moderate Democrats became a personal feud between Lyndon Johnson and Yarbrough,
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/CC/fcosf.html

I eagerly await any reference to LBJ as Left especially in reference to his foreign policy.

Meg you are usually right. Don't let others say otherwise. You got Pelosi pegged. She didn't want Hillary telling her what to do and threw Harman to the curb.

Sexism in reverse and quite pathetic.

What is the makeup of that rules commitee. I can't find any site that has it listed.

Georgia McCain (R) Clinton(D) Spread
RCP Average 02/26 - 05/06 -- McCain + 16.0

just heard -(on fox-so you have to take it with a grain of salt)- that HRC is prepared to take it all the way to the convention! unless fla a mi are seated. cool

-Good News.
Hope it's true.

craig, after seeing you on msn this morning, i don't think you understand,- i thought you did, but maybe you don't-, how angry many women are. we have witnessed Sen Clinton being laughed at, degraded, insulted. we have seen the media doing it, we have seen our own democratic party doing it. she can, and will pick herself up, dust herself off and say that's ok, now lets get together and work for the party. but for some that is not going to happen. the democratic party has shown itself for what it is! yes they want us to go door to door, stuff envelopes and make phone calls...as long as you don't forget your place, sweetie.

Living in Ohio, at least you feel you vote counts, but you never know if it is counted correctly.

GAKaren -- Isn't it amazing how many Hillary supporters actually are college graduates and more?

Maggi: It doesn't surprise me at all. Tweety and the boys' heads would explode if they spent any time on this blog and saw that we all aren't uneducated dried up old white women. Dumbasses.

It is going to be pretty ugly this November and the pundits are going to be mystified. I still am amazed at how incredulous they were at the start of the primary when they realized that the economy was a larger issue than immigration. My don't the pundits have their finger on the pulse of this nation!

sorry, slow connection here. on tv--shepard smith reported it, from ap he says

Nelson: Exactly. Women are the fundraisers, the phone bankers, the envelope stuffers, the chair arrangers ... actually the heart and soul of both political parties. Let's see how the latte crowd does with all the scut work ...

Posted by: Rezdog | May 21, 2008 3:48 PM

No Clinton supporter ever claimed she would carry Georgia.

How many times has it been said here today and in the past!

Popular Vote has no bearing on Nomination.
She needs to accept it!

Rez,
What's the difference to you if she stays in until convention? Do you beleive Obama has it in the bag? or not?

It makes no difference to me if she wants to stay in until then or if she wants to say she has won the popular vote either. It just confuses people and keeps the pot stirred up.

GAKaren: It is precisely as my old poli sci prof said -- the issues change and we never know what the next issue will be. But we know how we feel about a candidate ... and that's what should dictate our vote.

Jamie: You are so right about the shifting dynamic of the Democratic Party. I hardly recognize it myself sometimes. It's difficult ... I care so much about the environment and human rights--but I also care about fiscal discipline and too much bureaucracy. I often feel there is no place for me in any political party.

vadaryl ,

Saw your post on Rules Committee.

This site is DNC leadership and Credentials Committee.
Don't know if that's what you want.
http://www.demconvention.com/dnc-elects-standing-committee-leadership-for-2008-democratic-national-convention-2/

Uh, Bri-Bri --

SSI was created by Nixon as part of his Welfare Reform Act.

Another masterpiece by the resident ignoranus.

(Not a typo.)

LBJ and RFK got along pretty swell , didn't they?

I'll try to do this honestly even though I'm all over the place in arguing with myself

A SURVEY TO ALL PASSIONATE CLINTON SUPPORTERS

Should Barack Obama receive the Democratic Party nomination for President, I will...

(not in any particular order)

1) Do a write-in vote for Hillary Clinton in protest. - preference but I can't in Washington

2) Will vote for John McCain - No

3) Will cast my ballot for Mr. Obama - Still cringe when I think of it

4) Will vote for Mr. Obama IF Hillary Clinton is his running mate. - Yes

5) I will vote for a third party candidate in protest - Most likely if no #4

6) To hell with it, I won't vote for anyone. - seriously considered as alternate to #5

A secondary list of questions:

1) I am a Democrat - Registered

2) I am an Independent - Often vote split tickets if the Republican is moderate.

Final question:

The likelihood that the Barack Obama supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters will unite overall out of concern for our country's future and direction is:

I can't even predict - It really could go either way. If the Obama folks keep telling the Clinton folks how worthless and unnecessary they are, who knows? There might be enough fed up Republicans crossing over to make up the difference for the hold out Clintonites.

I can see scenarios where it is a Democratic landslide or a squeaker either way.

And the program from which it was developed was created by that socialist firebrand Ike.

and another thing.....
the dem.statigest and other asses keep complaining that the longer HRC stays in the race the more it shows BHOs weaknesses. duh,what? they want to get rid of her because she makes him look bad ?? yet he should be the nominee??

Johnson was enigmatic. Huge education, anti-poverty, voting rights and civil rights supporter - started Medicare and Medicaid - all considered "left" by the day's standards and by Republicans. He was also a huge anti communist militarist and was no friend to labor (having voted for the Taft-Hartley act) considered "right" wing positions by the standards of the day and by Democrats. And he was certainly a tax and spend liberal.

LL,

I prefer this spelling --

ignorANUS.

And you might add...

Prevalent belief: "Pot is not a drug."

and another thing.....
the dem.statigest and other asses keep complaining that the longer HRC stays in the race the more it shows BHOs weaknesses. duh,what? they want to get rid of her because she makes him look bad ?? yet he should be the nominee?? -- ND

Oh God, we wouldn't want that, now would we? I'm sure Keith Olbermann is preparing his special comment about the "bitch's" refusal to quit as we speak.

It's difficult ... I care so much about the environment and human rights-- Maggisd

Maggi,
Don't know much about it yet, but isn't McCain making some movement to the left of what he previously held on the environment??

pogo,

My favorite 20th century political biography remains Dallek's LBJ masterpiece.

He remains the pol I'd most want to study and never want to meet.

And I am AMAZED by the total omission of Johnson's rule of the Senate by cable tv's foolocracy yesterday.

All credit to TK -- and perhaps even more to LBJ.

RCP Average 02/26 - 05/11 -- McCain 53.7, Obama 40.0; McCain +13.7. Rez, what was your point?

GAKaren: Oh, don't get me started on KO. What a disappointment that man has turned out to be.

I realize emotions are running high, but I am really uncomfortable with the thought of Democrats voting for McCain.

I would much rather see HRC's supporters stay home than vote for McBush. Why would we want to feed into the meme that has already been floated by the Obama camp that it will be the fault of the Clintons if he loses in November? I think the point will be made to the DNC if women that stuff envelopes, make calls, get people to the polls etc. stay home.

Democrats discounting the importance of real people voting..who would have thunk it?

Race and gender, or rather racism and sexism, are major topics of discussion within our party and this primary cycle. It's fairly obvious that many dems around the country are to varied degrees, racist and sexist.
So what! Our party has issues with it. Let get on with nominating our candidate and defeating McCain. Racism and sexism aren't going away in the near future.

LL,
I wasn't directing this at your hillbilly clan. LOL

HRC not only ready to serve as president on day one, but also ready to start campaigning in the general on day one!
how much time does BHO need to cram? (not so good at thinking on his feet, is he?)

Meg: Actually, Sen McCain is quite an environmentalist. One of my favorite stories is about when he and Hillary joined forces to take some of their Republican colleagues on a trip to see the effects of global climate change on the earth. That's the trip where -- it is said -- they spent an evening doing vodka shooters and hanging out with reporters.
I don't know if that is a flattering story or not...but it is widely reported and even Pres Clinton has mentioned it.
I agree with burrito about Sen McCain ... he is quite personable in town hall meetings, takes all questions, will honestly say I don't know if he doesn't or even ask questions if he wants to learn more about a subject.

Sorry to make you uncomfortable GAKaren. When you can show how Obama is REALLY more centrist than McCain (facts please), I will consider NOT VOTING as I have done a couple of times before. And unlike some here, I have yet to vote Republican, so I do not take this matter lightly.

Jamie: I would take the WPA even further and retrain as many people as we can in Green technologies/alternative fuels. I think that our nation could become No. 1 in those areas if we actually stopped giving it lip service and did what is necessary to move ourself away from oil dependency while taking care of the environment in the process.

Regarding doing the daily grind for the party....here's where I stand on it these days, per Ms McBride:

When God fearin' women get the blues
There ain't no slap down or tellin what they're gonna do
Run around yellin', I've got a mustang it'll do 80
You don't have to be my baby
I stirred my last batch of gravy....

Watch out Rez...I might have to get my Bible back out! LOL.

Maggie, I enjoyed hearing that story. And I'm glad to hear that about McCain.

I know I'm politically naive, at least for the time being, but doesn't McCain seem to be at a point where he's more open to change than he's been in the past. I know it's all part of telling people what they want to hear in a campaign, but he seems willing to listen-and that's important. I've never voted Republican in my life, but feel I can and will vote for him, if not Hillary, because of this and the trust issue.

I trust the man.

Pogo,
i didn't post that

RCP Average 02/26 - 05/11 -- McCain 53.7, Obama 40.0; McCain +13.7. Rez, what was your point?

I posted the RCP average on HRC in GA. just to get your attention.:)

Well excuse me Max for crapping in your corn flakes, but what paranoid delusion has your undies in a bundle now?

You can do anything you want with your vote as is your right, but this loving support of McCain is a little too much for me and if you don't like it you can take your tinfoil hat and RW drivel and put it where the sun don't shine.

Enough of these straw men arguments, Max et. al, I don't owe you an answer or anything else for that matter.

EuroTom: I am ecstatic that Ian Mckellan is revisiting his Gandalf role!!!!! and the piece wasn't bad either, I would have been more impressed however, if he had of walked away before he was publically humiliated with it.

NelsonDecker: Kudos, my sense of things exactly.

9/11, yup, LBJ was the consummate Senate arm twister, which probably explains his ability to push so much controversial legislation through in so short a time. Of course TK was a pup at the time, but he did help LBJ push the Great Society agenda through congress.

Meg: As I have mentioned before, I have met the man and I know a few old fighter-pilot types who know him quite well. He has always been a more or less familiar figure in Southern California.
I am somewhat disappointed that his current need to bring Republican voters around is causing him to sound less moderate than he has shown himself to be in the past.
But, I quite like the man. And, I do trust him to really be able to compromise and work with Democrats, as he has done for years.
If there were any chance at all that the Congress was going back to the GOP I would not vote for him ... but on issues where he is farther to the right than I would like, I will trust the Congress to check him and the Senate, in particular, to force him to compromise on judicial appointments.

Rez, I was responding to this

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/05/obama-begins-to-end-dem-race.html#comment-86454

Like I said, what was your point?

said it before, i'll say it again. the dnc, dscc,dccc wil get no more money or work from me. if little missy pelosi thinks BHO is so great they can get all their money from his supporters from now on.
hell hath no fury like a women scorned- especially a women in her 50s!!!!

GAK

Encouraging the green technologies is probably one of the most economically viable things we could do as a nation.

China is coming on line as a massive user carbon based fuels. They are already murdering their citizenry with rivers of pollution.

The U.S. has the technology to not only develop green energy but sell it to the world once we have it developed.

"If there were any chance at all that the Congress was going back to the GOP I would not vote for him "...maggisd

That's what's reassuring. It sounds like the Senate and House are going to go easily Democrat. And that's how I'd vote the rest of the ticket. I always feel much better informed after I read your blogs.

"Well excuse me Max . . . but what paranoid delusion has your undies in a bundle now?. . .if you don't like it you can take your tinfoil hat and RW drivel and put it where the sun don't shine."

Damn Karen, you go girl! ROFL

Sorry Max, remember I like the shooting ducks.

Jamie et. al: Is it true that Carter installed solar panels on the roof of the WH during his term or is it just urban legend that Reagan had them taken down?

If only we had taken green technology/alternative fuels seriously in 1980 one can only imagine where our country would be now.

Jamie: Green technology, including a viable apprentice ship program are what is needed now. Personally, I am strongly in favor of a sort of WWII-type gearing up to produce Hybrid vehicles and develop a means-tested tax credit program to enable ordinary Americans to buy Hybrids ASAP. It seems to me that this single technology would hugely impact our national carbon footprint and dramatically reduce both our need for imported oil and our need to grow corn for fuel ...

Yeah, Rezdog, we wouldn't want to "confuse" people by giving them the facts.

The media was so disinterested in providing the facts that I didn't know until the PA primary that the same number of votes in black wards earned more delegates than in white wards.

What's wrong with the concept of "one person, one vote"?

Meg: TY very much for the kind words.

Rez: LOL. Insulting people is not my thing, but I won't sit here and be attacked either.

I was stating an opinion not making a proclamation or composing a manifesto. I don't see why that set Max off like it did.

Encouraging the green technologies is probably one of the most economically viable things we could do as a nation."Jamie

And isn't it the only place to go. We're pretty much backed into a corner now, and the choices are limited. What we've been doing is no longer working. Do we have a choice? There's problems to be solved, and this is the time to make sure our candidates are addressing the right ones. They'll never be so aware of our desires as right now.

GAK, he did.

http://www.whitehousehistory.org/05/subs/05_d19.html

brain, i think pa proved money can't buy everyone.

From New World Encyclopedia:

Johnson was well known amongst politicians for "The Treatment," a method of persuasion that he used to bully those that he needed for his own purposes. He would pull his chair close to the other person and lean forward until his nose was inches away from the visitor's face while talking. Members of Congress from whom Johnson wanted a vote often looked visibly shaken after such meetings with the President.

Pogo: Thank you very much for the link ... I suddenly have a vision of Ronnie up on the roof taking the darn things down by himself. Of course, it is likely that Cheney might have done it ... in his pre crash cart days.

GAKaren: Not urban legend ... truth. That is something for which I fault both Pres Clinton and VP Gore ... the solar panels should have been replaced ... as an example if nothing else. I seem to recall that there was a huge emphasis on getting everyone wired for the internet, so possibly they lost their focus.
As an aside and a propos of not very much, I am happy to say that my very Republican hometown has fueled its city buses and waste vehicles with natural gas for many many years. In fact, I have read that the carbon footprint of the average Californian has remained largely static for a very long time, despite the prodigious distances we drive to work.

What's wrong with the concept of "one person, one vote"?
Posted by: Tess

Tess, that's way to simple.

How will the party keep us confused about how the process is working next time. If we had "one person, one vote" , just think how simple the strategy would be and how easy it would be for the voters to understand what was happening. The way it is now, it can always change daily until the convention. The have more ability to manipulate things from inside the party, instead of just leaving it to the voters. And that would mean the supers would only be one vote too.

Wouldn't that be a beautiful world?

any way brain, you missed my point. i wasn't talking about current campaign money, i was talking about the old dependable dems being thrown under the bus.
i am not so sure that the newbies will be as supportive.

"What's wrong with the concept of "one person, one vote"?"

Tess or whoever,

It's undemocratic, like our national elections. Can you spell Electoral College. Representative government, What a concept!
Besides, I like our Caucus system here in WA.

The national popular vote total has no legal force in our Democrat party so why keep hammering on it?

I read some place the other day, quoting a very credible source, and I apologize, but I don't remember who. But it was a long time Republican. And he said, (and of course, I paraphrase) the a true Republican (not radical in one direction) will always put the Individual before Big Business. And that may be obvious to some(?) but that's not how I ever thought of Republicans. Does what he said seem true?

EuroTom....

I am a long time independent..... but have voted only for Democrats for president.....
if Obama is the Dem nominee..... McCain will win overwhelmingly in my state of NH..... so I'll be writing in Hillary Rodham Clinton....

at this point..... I don't care if the Democratic Party implodes.....
but you know what "they" say.... a woman always has the right to change her mind......

Lardass..... my Celtics and Red Sox made me smile last night...... :0)

It's undemocratic, like our national elections. Can you spell Electoral College.

The way I understood Tess, was one person, one vote, not just in the primary but in the General also. Why not.? No more delegates or electoral college votes. Just votes.

9-11, I agree and also will add that Dallek is the finest of the bio writers, but DKG is my fave historical biographer when we discuss Lincoln and Eleanor and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
For those not familiar with Mrs. Kearns Goodwin, here's a paragraph from a website:
"Doris Kearns Goodwin won the Pulitzer Prize in history for No Ordinary Time: Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt: The Home Front in World War II, which was a bestseller in hardcover and trade paper. She is also the author of the bestsellers Wait Till Next Year, The Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys, and Lyndon Johnson and the American Dream. Ms. Goodwin serves as an NBC-TV news analyst and lectures around the world. She lives in Concord, Massachusetts, with her husband, Richard Goodwin."

How each party picks it's members is a "private" matter in the eyes of the law.

And is "The Party" interested in the will of the people"
Or is that just an act.
What's wrong with Change.
Isn't that what every body wants? Change.
What's wrong with simplicity?
One vote, one person.
If the process is performed to find out who has the best chance to win in the General, why is it weighted toward the party to make the decision.

Why can't we have a simple, fair vote, and then if "the party" wants to, they're entitled to ignore the results and do what they planned to do in the first place. Hell, they can just choose someone and save a lot of time and money (not to mention heart ache and confustion).
At least we'll all be aware of what they're doing.

It's all an illusion anyway.
Maybe simple and illusion don't go together.

I bet theis has been posted before, but just in case...

http://www.mccainpedia.org/index.php/Main_Page

gotta fly.

NEW THREAD

Meg-The Republican Party is as split down the middle as the Democrats are. There are isolationists such as Pat Buchanan, screaming Libertarians such as Ron Paul, who literally believes in no government at all, rabid anti-taxers like Grover Norquist, as well as the religious issues voters.
What one would call the traditional Republican Party was once characterized as strong on Defense, but rather more anti-war than not, believers in individual effort and individual responsibility (thus opposed to affirmative action and labor unions), in favor of business interests, and dedicated to the proposition that the government belonged out of our business and out of our private lives.
There is a new book just published by John Dean and Barry Goldwater Jr (college roommates) about Barry Goldwater. It's worth a read. You will not agree with every position he ever took but knowing Goldwater might help explain the core values of the Republican Party.
Better yet, see if you can find an article about Gerald Ford somewhere ... the epitome of moderate Republicanism.

"Since the weighted delegate system was arranged between Michael Dukakis and Rev Jesse Jackson, I doubt that the effect was accidental. "

That's exactly what the point of it was....it equalize districts heavily black. It was one of those idea that outlived its time, especially now that it hurts hispanics.

"What's wrong with the concept of "one person, one vote"?"

"Tess or whoever,

It's undemocratic, like our national elections. Can you spell Electoral College. Representative government, What a concept!
Besides, I like our Caucus system here in WA.

The national popular vote total has no legal force in our Democrat party so why keep hammering on it?
Posted by: Rezdog | May 21, 2008 4:48 PM

Sorry Rez, but that comment puzzles me. One person, one vote is very democratic, small "d".... I don't get where you are coming from. Should some people's votes count more than others?

"I like our Caucus system here in WA."

An I HATE it. Undemocratic, exclusionary, tilted toward insiders, and open to intimidation and collusion. Compared to one person one secret ballot it is painfully and totally undemocratic.

ET,
Your right! It was a reverse comment. Our national elections are undemocratic with the EC.I was actually being smartalek.

NEW THREAD

I think the dems are splitting the party more by asking Hillary get out then they think Hillary is by continuing on. How can Obama capture Hillary dems when Bob Shrum is out there showing his dislike for Hillary.