Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Lardass wins the race?

8~(

LushIs...let's s call it a tie...cuz we like each other so much and were holding hands across the finish line!

Wow...Craig,

Not having seen it, what does this actually mean? I mean are they still going to apeal?

ohhhhhhh..LaL...I am happy you are first(XOXOX)!!

I am frowning over Craig's post 8~(

Hi Sheila...

It looks like Hillary wants to take this to the convention.

I believe that Obama will have the 2118 delegates needed by Wednesday night to secure the nomination.

At that point if Hillary decides to go Nuclear it will be the finish of her in the party.

I sincerely hope she don't as she could still be a force to be reckoned with in the Senate or elsewhere for the Democratic Party.

God Bless.

Harold Ickes said they are going to the convention.
Good!
Ruth

What is a sock puppet?

At that point if Hillary decides to go Nuclear it will be the finish of her in the party.

oh, freakin' spare me.............if hillary decides to go nuclear you goobers better get out of the way...........

lol

sturgeone...

I respectively disagree with you.

God Bless.

I think WHEN this run wears off of Senator Clinton, she is probably going to take over Ted Kennedy's place. She has proven her metal again and again. it doesn't take and elder to become the watch dog of the party.

sock puppet......look up shari lewis on you tube

Sheila...

Catch you another day.

Take care and ...

God Bless.

I have a great idea then. I'll make sure you don't have to ignore anything.

Posted by: Patsi | May 31, 2008 7:38 PM

Posting frrequently is the best revenge
Ignore the hypocrites

mettle.

Hi Anon-p~!

Good to see you again. I am still out on the VEEP thingy. I think if Obama and Clinton get together, it will be up to them and I will accept it as a wise thing.

If they don't, then that's wise too. they are the only ones who know what they can take together. It may be that Clinton is strong in the senate than in the second spot.

I think the election was just handed to McCain due to the 'Reagan Democrat' swing voters. Obama's best hope is the fear of a Republican picking, perhaps 3, Supreme Court justices.

Hi Craig and everyone,

I just saw the news that Obama has announced that he is resigning from his church. The timing of the priest's mysogiistic and vicious attack on Hillary at Trinity last week now seems somewhat suspicous. Lynn Sweet, a longtime Chicago journalist, said the father is very politically savy and a longtime friend of Obama's. She was very surprised that he would make such a spectacle knowing full well that the cameras were rolling.

Does anyone else think that the event was timed so that Obama would have an excuse to break from the church in preperation for the general election and also to minimize the amount of coverage?

P.S. Congratulations to the Obama supporters.

Hillary need not do anything -- positive or negative between now and Denver. She can just kick back and relax. She deserves it.

In fact....she could say this week that she will back Obama with all her might...and that won't cost her a thing. There is no "legal" threshhold that needs to be crossed or acknowledged. She can implicitly "drop out" without losing a bit of leverage should she eventually need to get "back in."

Because the only way she can win the nomination at this point is a bombshell gamechanger that will convince SDs to change their minds -- and if that happens, Obama will bring it on himself. Hillary will be there to pick up the pieces for the party.

That's all folks. The discussion need not be any more complicated than that. We all knew this was coming. Today should be no shocker to anyone on either side.

Sheila:
I respectfully disagree with your prediction about Hillary. Had she originally asked to join the Labor, Health, and Education Committee -- which is where her true interests were -- she would now be sitting pretty. Instead, she went on Armed Services, in order to learn what it took to be Commander in Chief and establish her bona fides with the military types. By all accounts she did a good job ... but that committee is so hidebound that she has not moved up in seniority even a little.
If she were to switch committees, she would be back at the bottom of the barrel.
By the time Teddy lost his bid in 1980 he had been in the Senate for 18 years, building up seniority.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if she actually chose not to run again.

For the Senate, I mean.

Thanks Katie...

You know, I still think Hillary would be a great Supreme Court justice, but I'm not sure she's ever been asked about it.

Sheila...

I don't know if Obama would offer the V.P. spot to Hillary or not.

I do know that there are many who do not want to see her as his V.P. though after she brought up the RFK incident and would feel very uneasy if she was.

I leave that up to Obama as its choice to make and no one else's.

I'm going off line for awhile and if I get back on it will be only to lurk.

Hope you have a good weekend, well what's left of it anyway and I'll catch you another time.

Take care and ...

God Bless.

Maybe, I have reservations. Ever see "A Face in the Crowd".

Katie: I think you are quite right about the church resignation thing ... all along, I have found the incremental nature of these various "events" to be suspect ... particularly in view of Rev Wright's quoted comment that at some point Sen Obama would have to break all ties with the group of people that "groomed him" ...

This is the most effed up primary I have seen......it is kind of like a really bad relationship where two fight and fight so much that when the fight is over and there is absolutely nothing left to fight about....they have "make up sex."

eeewwww---- scarey----- but very possible..

Love that movie, but Obama ain't Lonesome Rhodes.

will robert jr kind of become the head of the family?

Sheila: Someone will emerge,
My instinct is that the leadership itself will change... I see Dick Durbin as hungry to take over from Harry Reid, who is not an entirely well man.
If Hillary were the senior Senator from New York, it might be different, but she is not ... and Senator Schumer will hold that position for as long as he wants it.

Ted Kennedy took over as surrogate father for all those fatherless neices and nephews. I don't think any of them will take his place. I think the dynasty will really be bygone when he passes.

ha ha ha ha ha .....obaman had to resign from his stupid church........what a goober...........

burrito: All I have to say on the subject is that Harold Ickes Jr is my new hero and that the decision made about the Michigan delegation was the most anti-democratic, outrageous decision I have ever seen. And for what? To deny Sen Clinton six delegates?

Katie, Maggs...
That's an interesting theory about Trinity...but I honestly think Obama didn't need another uproar for an excuse to leave the church. I think enough has happened already. And honestly, I don't think resigning at this late date really will have the effect of distancing himself from a church where he belonged 20 years.

Good that this happened - it was predictable. Now maybe the Clintons will finally go after Obama. They owe the DNC nothing. Either they do so much damage to Obama that the SDs desert him or they cause him to lose to McCain. Either way, the country would be saved from the gang that has hijacked the Dem Party. Wonder how long before we start hearing "commie Obamie" on Fox News.

i will leave the democratic party now...i will write Hillary in.....i will be independent from now on....

I have always had an issue with the way the democrats nominate... I'm an independent because both parties stink it up to some level.

I hope not but his opportunism (nothing wrong with seizing opportunity though) typified by his use of signature 'rules' to remove opponents from the ballot in his first campaign are troubling. I am afraid he will be savaged by the 527's and one "Listen junior, I was keeping my fellow soldiers alive while you were in prep school in Hawaii" debate moment will end the contest.

Unlikely...no need for details, but I just want to know how things are going on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being horrible. Anything below a 5 means things are getting a bit better.

Glad you got the book, too.

I glad I have a good book for the summer. : )

Gordo: All I can say about the DNC is that I am totally and completely amazed about the Michigan decision. On the one hand, they're going to allow the vote (at 50%, as the rules say), but on the other hand, they're going to decide what the vote might have been if things hadn't been as they were ... and then they all cry unity. That crowd was really unified, wasn't it?

Would Chuck Schumer have any interest in becoming Governor of New York?

Warren G: Looks as if the Obama faction just did the same thing to Michigan that he did to his opponents in the State Senate race. And for anyone who thinks what he did was fair play, he was working off a newly purged voter list to which the other candidates did not have access, and which had not yet been challenged. Purged voter lists .... isn't that one of the things that cost Al Gore the election?

Lardass Liberal, Maggie,

I know Obama's resignation from Trinity will not allow him to completely undo the political damage from Reverend Wright, but I do think breaking now helps minimize the damage and makes it much more difficult for Republicans to raise the church as a relevant issue. It's sort of like his slipping the flag pin back on when no one was paying attention.

I've learned from watching this campaign closely that Axelrod et al do very little by accident.

unlikely_burrito

What book are you reading?

There has been no response, on a scale I would say I am up....meaning if they had anything they would have responded...
I'd like to take them down...but still waiting. final tally "8"

Maggs...the few snippets of today's meeting that I bothered to watch rather disgusted me. I could not believe the chairman running a meeting under Robert's Rules was allowing the partisans in the crowd to cheer every question and cheer ever answer. It was totally amateur. The chair should have established authority up front and warned that any outbursts would be punished with ejection from the room.

War and Peace - recent translation

On the rec from many here, however, I just got it the other day.

oops LL i thought 10 would be good....2 final answer

Jamie...being Governor of New York would actually involve heavy lifting, which has not been Chuck Schumer's MO. He's basically a show horse in the Senate -- always has been sort of the prime example of that phenom, since he first ascended.
I don't think you can be a "show horse" as a governor of a major state.

Unlikely.
2 is good.
2 is good anytime.
I'm so happy.
Great.

Obama gee how will he prove he is a Christian now

I kinda expected this today, but I think it is probably just another step in the process If this settles this way, I see the beginnings of true re-alignment of both parties.

I don't think the extremes of either party will ever be populated enough to be a real majority in congress and will have to rely on their more moderate members. The dems in congress for the last two years were dependent on the extremes and didn't get anything done, so it's just turned around and the extremes will need help from moderates. In order to do that, extremes will have to compromise because they will not ne able to change enough moderates.

That is the nature of extremes. they eventually blend with moderates and soon new extremes rise up. Lenin's extremes are not there in viable forms today. They have been modified because they were always a small group, which they tried to hide by calling themselves 'majority' or 'bolshevik'. The real 'majority' got stuck with the name 'mensevik' or 'minority'. Whatever the name, the extremes, the smaller group, were subsumed into the majority, the moderates.

Add to that the fact that the dems are divided in equal halves, and there are bad feeling on both sides Right now it seems that fully one half will be dumped. There might be a struggle for control of the party and it might be bloody but when it's over, it will be a different party. As bleeding heart liberal as I am, I never had any respect for the party and it's proving me right. It has created a real mess and the bullying has been out in the open and it is truly ugly. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a sea anchor to progress. What we really didn't need was a fight between these two factions.

big whip he left the church he already used for his own benefit.

Next!!

yikes...that's some serious summer reading!!

LL: I expect to see Andrew Cuomo give the governor's race another try.

Maggiad, And, it was Obama's men in the MI State Legislature that blocked a revote.

yeah, I thought i should accomplish something this summer other than the usual : )

I was sick of spending my time reading crappy books, so I asked for suggestions here, and that is where I landed...

Warren: As well as the campaign itself. Both MI and FL officials said that they would not go ahead unless both candidates agreed. It's widely reported that the Obama campaign would not agree to a re-vote in either state. Probably because, even though he might have lost by a smaller margin, Obama still would have lost ... and losing two more big states so late in the campaign would have been a serious blow to his momentum.

Maybe we could all change our party affiliation from Democrat to Independent on the same date.

goober belongs to a church for 20 yrs......runs for president and has to quit the church......oh my.........

h

burrito: War and Peace .... aarrgh! I just read your post. Endless discussions of the plight of the Russian people. You might like it ... many do. Consider Anna Karenina instead (I hope I spelled that correctly).

Sturge...I'll be in your neck of the woods for the next couple days.
Chawlston.

stop on by, we'll barbecue some ice cubes......

I read W&P years ago(for about a year)...LOL!!

I've got a longtime friend and mentor who lives there...usually make the trek about twice a year for two fun days of golf and Budweiser. It's an easy 5.5 hour drive from where I am.

good idea Jean...make it a national movement : demsLEFTme: DemNoMore: DEMnotME: nothingleft : indieNOW:

2 hrs south of Jax?

Yup. I-95 in all it's glory until Hardeeville. (or I guess a few miles past there is the 17 exit)

I also own Anna Karenina, will read that next.

Maggi,
Part of the MI application was in consideration for the voters, who did nothing wrong. Plus, 44% were uncommitted and Dems have a decent chance there in November. Like a good MI politician Levin was threatening to fight it. Hillary has an uphill battle fighting the MI party now.

9 referenced that first sentence in Anna Karenina.....great sentence.......Happy families are all alike......unhappy families are each uniqe in their ......etc......I forget......

Maggs...
A total 10-4 on your last post.
That's the whole point, and the ONLY point, of today.
"Rules? There ain't no stinkin' rules!"

This is an update to my post from the previous thread:

Intimidate 08 [IMAGE UPDATE + 2nd Update at end]

"Per usual, Barack Obama’s people have SCRUBBED the site of this offending THREAT OF VIOLENCE at the National Democratic Convention. NEVER FEAR, however. We have a SCREENSHOT, thanks to D. It is here. Simply CLICK on the image to see it in full view:

Clearly Obama ‘08 is using the threat of protests — and even riots — to intimidate superdelegates. The last thing superdelegates want is chaos at the convention, but creating chaos is the name of the Obama campaign’s game. Hillary’s media surrogates must highlight this disturbing and increasingly apparent element of Obama’s superdelegate strategy every chance they get."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/31/intimidate-08/

". . and caucuses where no one casts a recorded vote"

Maggi,

In our WA caucus I can tell you how Dems voted in whichever precinct you like. It's all recorded and reported.

Rezdog: I understand the numbers. I get what happened. The MI delegation knew that without the support of the Obama campaign they would get no representation at the Convention until the last possible moment.
I simply state that what Michigan did was antithetical to the democratic process, and the only point of the exercise was to grind Sen Clinton down a little bit more than was needed. Those four delegates don't help him one little bit ... but by removing them from her total and giving them to him they basically told the ordinary voter that they (the big shots) were taking back the party.

Maggis, Betty: "Pushing Hillary's face in the dirt" and "bullying" has been especially gratuitous lately. It really bothers me that at a time when it is necessary to pull the party together the Obama campaign promoted the RFK remark just to give them another excuse not to put Hillary on the ticket.

The disconnect between Obama's message and campaign tactics reminds me of W.

Rezdog: I would expect nothing less from Washington. But that is unfortunately not true of all caucus states ... I mean, I know we all joke about the Democratic Party not being organized, but do we have to go out of our way to prove it all the time.

Is someone saying democrats are not democratic? Would that not be the height of hypocrisy?

Night all. Dinner calls.
Sturge, Jamie and WhiskeyJack have my proxy vote for the next few days.

Rendell and McCaskill on Face the Nation.

How do I black out half the TV screen to avoid the puppy killer?

"....drag the matter to the party's convention in August."

"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.

"You shut up!" the second woman shouted back.

......Lipstick on a pig!" one shouted.
"We just blew the election!" a woman in the audience shouted. The crowd was divided between cheering Obama supporters and booing Clinton supporters.

"This isn't unity! Count all the votes!" .........

"We just blew the election!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080531/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble

Just had to bring over a few choice words from the article I read. Sounds like us here at times.

Not now though, but other times.

How do I black out half the TV screen to avoid the puppy killer?
Posted by: Jamie

Jamie, turn the channel. That's what the remotes for.

Who would support that sh*t? I mean really; if you look at the process objectively is it not a democratic process.

It has been exposed to get lengths this primary, and if you still support it, then you support a flawed system. ( imo )

Given the givens, the compromise seems fair to me.

The biggest disappointment for me was the lack of civility and maturity toward the end, as Senator Clinton's representative slunk into an unsuitable, bullying "you bet your ass" diatribe that attempted (in the manner of Mr. Bush) to use the fear factor, specifically using the term "hijacking" several times to link the 9/11 perpetrators to those who were trying to find common ground.

We don't need another W clone; we need to get beyond the horrors of the last eight years.

"scrub the board of your opponents, grind them down, make them eat dirt." Posted by: maggisd

Yes!

Slow down Maggi, you're spinning out of control so much you have many here believing it! lol

benjaminblue: The Michigan deal was not a compromise. How is it a compromise to take delegates away from one candidate and award them to another? Because that is what happened. And, the odd thing is that it wasn't enough delegates to make a difference to anyone ... it just allowed the Obama campaign to display its muscle.

and Ohio doesn't matter....lol

the only thing that matters is rules and interpretations of the rules....and as for the people who take time out of their day to vote.....well, "f" them....that's what I am saying.....

It's all about us and the rules, not the little people and their votes...

didn't you get the memo?????

Maggi,

It was unjust, but we knew it was going to happen this way.

And even if it hadn't, Obama would have still have been ahead in delegates. So Hillary wouldn't have caught him in delegates anyway. But now she can rightly point out that she's ahead in the popular vote. So that part worked in her favor.

Her only chance of getting the super delegates anyway is for the unexpected to happen. She already knew that. And the unfairness of Michigan has just added credibility to them taking this to the convention. So, in a way, it's ok.
And CNN didn't think it is over by any means.

I will NEVER again complain about the Repubs stealing FL in 00 and OH in 04. The best thing the Clintons could do for the country is to "explode" what is now referred to as the Dem Party.

I will never call myself a Democrat again.

Barack Obama is an arrogant prick and so are his supporters.

Let's face it; she signed off on the 4-state pledge. You can't change horses in midstream. And as much as I am suspicious of her, I think she will wind up on the ticket. Realpolitik requires it. How else are you going to shut up her most rabid supporters? And I do think it would guarantee the Democrats the election.

9/11 -

just caught your comment re Rod Taylor, and no, I didn't know his daughter had ever been on tv. He was one of my favorites. If I can find a way to get the cd of my mom on this, I'll do it. The theme from Hong Kong is gorgeous and I'll bet you recognize it. My mom finally jumped up from the couch one night after watching the show and said, Okay, I've got to get it. Then she sat down at the piano and played it. Need I say we three girls took it for granted.

How Obama won:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080530/ap_on_el_pr/obama_strategy;_ylt=AhrA7vYGlnfb0Vo_xUXmazyyFz4D

Michigan was a compromise because many voters -- told the election would not count -- stayed home or voted for a second-choice or third-choice candidate, as their first-choice candidate was not on the ballot.

So Senator Clinton's "win" really robbed those who were misled and were unable to vote according to their specific interests.

The compromise is that both Senator Clinton's supporters and Senator Obama's supporters are seated, and there can be 50-state representation and a unified move forward.

GAKaren - Good for you!!

Independents welcome you. : )

Chloe: I agree with much of what you say. I guess that's what makes me so angry ... that there was no real benefit to him and no real harm to her in the Michigan decision .... it was just petty and gratuitous. Just standing up and saying "I'm taking four of your delegates because I can."
The principle, however, remains anti-democratic. Either they disallow the delegates altogether (which they have the power to do), or they allow them in full, or at 50%. But to just invent numbers because they did polls after the fact ... that's egregious beyond belief.

Craig, it's about time! : )

Woohoo! It's only a matter of days now. Soon we can all breathe easy again.

Rich.......change horses in mid-stream.......kind of like resigning from a church? oh, yes......let's not change horses......................

"All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

How many here could write a novel based on the latter part of that sentence.

BenjaminBlue: That analysis is speculation and supposition. Like the Republicans saying that the early call of the election in Florida means people who would have voted didn't vote.
Delegates are supposed to be based on the actual vote ... not what the vote might have been if only the phase of the moon had been different.
This is the type of maneuver that empowers those Republicans who continue to claim that Democrats commit election fraud ... stuff ballot boxes and the like.

.... it was just petty and gratuitous. Just standing up and saying "I'm taking four of your delegates because I can." maagisd

Maggi, he was just staying in character. And the people there sure let him know what they think about it. And you and I and the 17 million or so other Clinton voters all know the same thing.

She is ahead in popular vote, which may be worth something at some point. That buys her a lot of leverage. And Ickes said he was authorized by Hillary to take this to the Convention. And now that she has been treated unfairly in the eyes of many of us, taking it to the Convention will be all that more powerful. And the anger helps.

The primary system is anti-democratic by its very nature. MI & FL violated the rules. I don't like it, but we all need to recognize that the primary election is driven and controlled by arcane party rules and elites, not voters.

So no more of this anti-democratic stuff. It's really beneath Ickes and it's definitely beneath the smart people on this blog.

Jamie: It's the only type of novel worth writing. Very few successful novels about happiness ...

"Soon we can all breathe easy again. "

No soon we can accept another arranged by an autotocracy undemocratic inevitable.

Okay, she takes it to the credentials committee, escalates it to a committee of the entirety, and ends up winning the nomination on the third ballot.

That's if, he self-destructs before then--he's juggling a whole bunch of balls right now and he's pissed a bunch of people off--they may be smiling, but...

That's politics.

jamie.....i could write one but it would be totally different.........

I thought religion was ment to more then a passing phasefor people......more like a "core" belief building block......opps....my "block" is losing me votes....time to jump ship........picture Obama jumping away from his mentor, his path, his uncle....his newly found christianhood.....into a limo with secret service agents and interns.

chloe,

The notion of bringing up the popular vote is INSANE. Not only does HRC not have the popular vote, but in a primary system that is tabulated by delegates and caucuses it is an inappropriate metric. In a general election, sure, but not when only *40* states actually voted.

How many here could write a novel based on the latter part of that sentence. Jamie

Jamie, I could.

Hey
Headline
"Democrats commit suicide"

Love it
What a bunch of idiots.
Wonder
who will be in charge
Next year.
No Obama
No leader

LOL
Big blood bath
Now that's entertainment

Friends don't let friends vote a straight ticket
Vote divided government
Vote McCain

Utopia: I do most respectfully disagree with you. In my opinion, nothing could have been more damaging to the Democratic Party than the Michigan compromise. What is so very stunning is the small number of delegates involved ... for four lousy delegates, the DNC allows the whole world to see that it is willing to make things up as it goes along? Because that's what they did. It was the worst of backroom deals for no purpose at all....other than for the Obama campaign once again to let the Clintons know that there is no longer a place for them in the Democratic Party.

Jamie,

Even if you're going to persist in talking about this anti-democratic nonsense, you do realize that HRC has never really had a chance, and that the FL & MI issue was only used as a means to give her the perception that she was still in the race. And I saw it over and over on this board, but she really does take advantage - deliberately, I might add - of voter ignorance, people who don't understand how the primary system works.

Even if FL & MI had been seated in full, she would have still lost.

He'll probably be an Episcopalian by the end of next week.

I have been watching the hockey game and just got a call from someone who thought they heard Hillary was going to have a news conference around 9ish. Does anybody know anything about this.

He can't pick Hillary after the whole assassination comment.
Plus it will ruin his brand it would be like if Apple started running windows vista.

The notion of bringing up the popular vote is INSANE Utopia

So I'm insane. It's not the first time I've been called that. But I stand by what I said. I said the popular vote could give her political leverage, not necessarily the nomination. Unless he steps in a big pile between now and August. And there she is, his loyal understudy. That could play the part a lot better than him, in this critics opinion,.

Thanks UB!

I was so relaxed after my vacation and now this crap.

I have been voting for every stiff the Democrats have run for President since 1980 and in all honesty I can say that I never hated any of the candidates. 1992 and 1996 were the exceptions as Bill Clinton is the only Democratic presidential candidate I've ever liked that I voted for. In most cases I was ambivalent about the candidates (Mondale and Dukakis come to mind) but this time I can say without hesitation that I hate yes I've said it, hate the candidate.

I will not vote for John McCain but I will not vote for Obama either and I will not give one red cent of my money to the Democratic Party. They've screwed the pooch this time. Bastards.

pug......youre calling for votes for mccain and in the same breath call democrats idiots?

LOL

o tempora, o mores

--cicero

maggisd,

The notion that she got any delegates from either FL or MI is absurd to begin with. What's the problem with losing 4? These states violated the rules. They should have been punished. The committee basically set themselves up for future violations today by being so lenient with HRC and Obama.

Sturgeone

By their nature in order to be worthy of a novel the stories must be different.

I even wrote the first couple of sentences of mine. : )

He'll probably be an Episcopalian by the end of next week.
Posted by: Flatus

Flatus,

He'll have to take a poll first.

chloe,

I was not implying that you are insane; however, the popular vote is an inappropriate metric as I explained in my post.

As if things could get any worse. These people are serious.

PU

I accepted that fact several days ago. I am not talking about the candidates. I'm talking about a system that disenfranchises the voters. The complaints will hold true for all future elections until the system is changed.

"So no more of this anti-democratic stuff. It's really beneath Ickes and it's definitely beneath the smart people on this blog."
-Politics of Utopia

Here's something for you to consider Politics of Utopia:

"Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character."
~ Margaret Chase Smith

Jamie..........
"All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

i could write one but it would be totally different.........

zip zip zoom.

Jamie,

Ok, now I understand your position. Somehow I thought you were blaming Obama for the rules set up long ago by the DNC.

"I was not implying that you are insane; however, the popular vote is an inappropriate metric as I explained in my post."- Politics of Utopia

You sound like James Baker and Bush's bastards in 2000. You should be very proud of yourself. If this is your idea of utopia you must have loved the last eight years.

Chloe,

I goofed on that one. It should have read, "He'll probably be a lifelong Episcopalian by the end of next week."

I was not implying that you are insane; however, the popular vote is an inappropriate metric as I explained in my post.
Posted by: Politics of Utopia

I was just kidding about the insane thing. I knew what you meant. But as for the inappropriate metric you talking about, I guess I'm just an inappropriate sort of person. Because I see the popular vote as powerful, as something to brag about. It may not get her the nomination, but it is meaningful. Just ask Al Gore.

GAKaren-Right on! It doesn't matter here anyway. They think Obama will win our state-what a joke. You and I know it will be red. I , like you have dutifully voted for all the Dems but the only one I was truely excited for was WJC. I will not vote for Obama. And how about that lame "lambasting" Dean made about all the sexist comments? Too little,too late.

Utopia: I am not arguing about delegates per se. Had the DNC refused to seat MI & FL I would not have been pleased, but that would have been their right. Just as the rules allowed them to seat the delegations at 50% (in fact, that's what the rules recommend).
I'd be absolutely thunderstruck if the DNC rules say anything about delegate allocation being decided by 19 of the 27 people present at a DNC meeting.
A compromise would have been to seat the delegation at 50%....not at 50% of some arbitrary number plucked out of a hat. Don't you see what the appearance is?

"Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character."
~ Margaret Chase Smith

Posted by: unlikely_burrito

I'm sorry, dude, that's pretty pathetic. There's a big difference between standing up for what's "not always popular" and believing the chump change ideology fed to you by the Clinton camp.

Come on, I mean, really?

Oh, that's right, I guess denial is the first stage.

Somewhere, I hear the world's tiniest violin...

Melanie: Re Dean and his comments....where was he six months ago?

So oneone heard anything about a Hillary news conference tonight

We're don't think we're really blaming Obama.

We're blaming the DNC. This thing was doomed since the beginning. And our cheering for Hillary to do what she deems best does not mean we hate Obama. It means we want Hillary to do what she has to do, so we can all feel at the end of this thing that she gave it her all. Just put yourself in her place.

So oneone heard anything about a Hillary news conference tonight.

chloe,

Again, you're not getting it. The 2000 election was different because there were no caucuses. EVERY state voted.

For the primary system, only 40 states vote. It has a very different logic to it, and the popular vote is inappropriate, or perhaps irrelevant would be a better word, simply because it can't be accurately tabulated.

standing up for what's "not always popular" and believing the chump change ideology fed to you by the Clinton camp.

sorry.......dude......but it's obama offering up the chump change..........

never give a sucker an even break, nor smarten up a chump.

-wcfields

“Denver! Denver!” is an ancient indigenous phrase meaning, “Obama is the nominee.”

maggisd,

I guess I can understand where you're coming from, but I've always viewed this whole process as profoundly anti-democratic. Hopefully the Dems will reform the primaries after this and get rid of the super delegates.

Utopia: I understand that you are rightly pleased that your candidate seems to have won every battle ... but I am asking that you look at the broader picture. It isn't just politics, it isn't just a game. We are meant to be choosing the person who will lead this country for at least the next four years. And, regardless of whom you feel is the best choice, the manner in which the choice is made must be above board and beyond reproach. The manner in which the MI delegation was apportioned had all the trappings of a cynical backroom deal ... the only purpose of which was to grind Hillary Clinton beneath Sen Obama's heels.

sturgeone,

So, like every other desperate Clinton fan, you can't actually disprove what I'm saying, you have to hide behind some oldster quote. Ad hominem attacks are for the desperate.

I disagree that Obama is now the DNC "boss". The whole point of his campaign is to give our country and our government back to the people. I was a Hillary supporter and still feel that she has a strong place w/n the party that she can serve. She has done herself no dishonor and as a woman, I like the tenacity that she has shown. She is intelligent, well-informed and crafty as hell. I will vote for Barack in the general and do my best to ensure that a democrat occupies the white house. I believe that only if Democrats take control can we hope to right some of the wrongs that have occurred within the Bush administration (and I am a registered Independent voter).

I am proud, too, that this nomination contest - for the first time, has included EVERY state... EVERYone mattered! I'd like to see a reform, though, so there is not as much dissention and divisiveness. Perhaps we can limit the months of the primary contest and have more states vote on the same day. If this works during the general election, why can't it be done for the primaries? Everyone's voices can be heard and we will have a nominee decided earlier.

Melanie: Re Dean and his comments....where was he six months ago? maggisd

Maggi, six months ago Dean was busy figuring out how to set up the playing field in order to muscle Hillary out of this race and get his guy the nomination. There's no doubt in my mind this was headed in this direction since the beginning. They just didn't know it would take so long.

maggisd,

I don't think it was a backroom deal. I guess that's the difference between us. She got more delegates than she deserved. They violated the rules, so I have no sympathy for the 4 delegate loss complaint. But, let's agree to disagree, I don't think you'll be won over on this one.

"For the primary system, only 40 states vote."

Which of course explains why I think the caucus states are nothing but popularity contests run by the most powerful influence pedlers and money changers rather than an expression of democracy.

Hey Utopia, if you are so righteous, why don't you use your real name?

Troll.

Ute.....I'll set about disproving the crap you output right soon after you set about PROVING it.......all righty?

Politics of Utopia,

I am sorry you did not understand the intent of the quote. It was in reference to a much larger scale picture. Next time, I will attempt to stay within your range, so that you can understand.

Oooops, I almost forgot to call you "dude".

There that's better. : )

Utopia: Nothing wrong with the idea of the Super Ds ... but weighted delegate apportionment is profoundly anti-democratic, as are caucuses where no votes are recorded. We scream and scream about paper trails in the GE but can't bother to have recorded votes in our own internal process. Makes us look like chumps and cheaters.

A new way of getting votes, pull your name off the ballot. Remember we had a candidate lose to a dead guy, so anything can happen.

Chloe

By George I think you've got it!!!

Obama supporters are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the planet. If Obama was in the same spot as Clinton is in now, they would be foaming at the mouth and threatening riots in the street.

What sad deluded children they are.

. Ad hominem attacks are for the desperate.
Posted by: Politics of Utopia

That's not hiding. That's words of wisdom.
And it's you that's attacking. So why not be a little more straight forward about it. And not tell us what methods of communication are acceptable to you and which are not.

GAK,

So that's it? You ask me why I don't use my real name? Really? That's all you've got?

I have always preferred using an alias on the interwebs, it just makes more sense to me. But if you must know, it's Aaron.

There, are you satisfied? Ok...

Utopia: Did you watch the whole thing? They go off for a one hour lunch and come back three hours later ... they have a little discussion about Florida and a unanimous vote. Then a woman presents a beautifully written proposal about Michigan in which the number of delegates is stated and it reflects nothing .... a made up number based on supposition and polling data. And the first man to speak is an ardent Hillary supporter who pleads with his fellow Hillary supporter to just accept the motion .... because why? because he knows the deal is done and that's that.

maggisd,

I dislike the whole primary system. I understand the winner-take-all approach is problematic, but I wouldn't totally support getting rid of the caucuses and the super delegates.

But if you must know, it's Aaron.

There, are you satisfied? Ok...

Posted by: Politics of Utopia

Is he serious? Jamie, tell me.

Well, I suppose I should be selfishly philosophical. With that in mind, I can honestly say that my vote in the general election is absolutely meaningless because I live in South Carolina.

Utopia: What you've got is a tragically flawed candidate that is going to hand the Democrats one of their biggest losses on record in November.

So pat your smary self on the back and enjoy the McCain administration. You will have earned it.

That should be: I * would* totally support getting rid of the caucuses and the super delegates

That should read "smarmy."

Flatus: As is mine, because I live in California. I can vote for Sen McCain with an absolutely clear conscience.

DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD....THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD DEAD DEAD.....Free at last of the Clinton Skull drudgery. Thank you lord.

GAK,

I hope not. But we don't know what's going to happen yet. I don't like HRC. I don't like her campaign. I don't like what she stands for as a politician. It's not personal, and I don't dwell on the negatives.

I can't promise you that Obama will win, but I do firmly believe that it's likely. He's a far stronger candidate that McCain.

Ramparts magazine, c. 1968......article by kurt vonnegut jr........."there is only ONE party" THE FIX IS IN.......

and goobers rush thither and yon.....a bit more gas and we'll be ok for the weekend..........

Utopia: If there is a silver lining in all of this, perhaps it will cause the Democrats to overhaul their primary system. I won't hold my breath though.

GAK,

I sure hope so. But my guess is that they won't. After 2000 I was hoping they would eliminate the electoral college. : (

Sorry to hear that Flatus,

I happen to live where my vote counts, Ohio, and I have not heard one good reason to vote FOR Obama.

Please understand, voting against McCain does not qualify as a reason to give my vote to Obama.

pssst......chris......the witch aint dead yet........watch yer adze.........

Chloe

As far as I know, unlike many others, Politics of Utopia has always posted under only that name.

He might confirm that.

Now, I wish he would pick a slightly friendlier alias.

Great hockey game. Go Pens! Better than crying over the decision.

Utopia: I don't think it would be right to force a state to hold a primary nor a small Democratic party within that state to do so. I have no real problem with caucuses except for the way they are run .... the GOP uses recorded votes. Some states ... Washington may be one... caucus for more than an hour late at night in some remote location.
And, there is nothing democratic about weighted delegate apportionment. Sounds like something out of Animal Farm.

For those who insist that Senator Clinton was cheated out of something, here is a countering thought (courtesy of Daily Kos):

Yesterday, Obama needed 41 delegate votes to clinch the nomination; Clinton needed 244.

Today, Obama needs 64 votes; Clinton needs 240.5.

There are 291 delegates remaining.

Oh and get a little blue key so that he is always the same person.

GAK,
They like it the way it is because this way they can control the outcome.
Please do not hold your breath .....it would not be healthy.

: )

Ben......you mean he aint won yet, right?

Right?

C'mon......say it along with me......NOT OVER

lol

Utopia: The Democratic Party can change the primary and caucus rules all by its lonesome.
The electoral college is embedded in the Constitution and takes 3/4 of the states to ratify .... good luck getting Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Rhode Island, Nebraska (I could go on) to diminish the influence of their citizens.

Sturgeone

Vonnegut was right. What happens to the country when all the voters catch on?

Jamie,

Haha, thanks. You don't like the name? I don't think it's unfriendly. I do much of my research and scholarship over late19th/20th century American literature through the analytical framework of literary criticism and marxist/socialist notions of utopia. I *could* change it, but it has sentimental value for me because utopia is that which always points toward the unknown, the future. It's both a thing of promise and great fear.

By George I think you've got it!!! Jamie

Jamie,
From one of my favorite movies...Rex Harrison...Thank you

Another problem is the Democrats have effectively set adrift a solid voting bloc. Older women do a lot of the stuffing envelopes, getting people to the polls, making phone calls etc.

Dean may have deluded himself into thinking that the kids will make up the difference, but Democratic women have been through presidential elections before and know the drill. After all, it looks like Obama can't win big states with a traditional approach to elections and as we've stated on this blog many many times the GE is not a caucus and Obama's army can't bully people into voting for him.

The fact is the Democrats are running a candidate that can't get blue collar white people to vote for him so I fear we have quite a disaster in the making.

benjaminblue: It's not about how many delegates either candidate needs. It's about the DNC accepting the Michigan proposal to arbitrarily assign delegates after the fact, based on their notion of how people might have voted if they hadn't voted the way they did vote.

BREAKING NEWS: Michelle’s Whitey Problem

"New and dramatic developments. This is a heads up. I’ll post the news Monday morning by 0900 hours. Now I know why people who have seen the videotape say it is stunning. Barack’s headaches are only starting."

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/31/breaking-news-michelles-whitey-problem/

Gotta check out for the night, folks. Take care!

UB: LOL! I don't hold my breath for too long because I'm always talking.

"There is a new sheriff in town, [House Speaker] Nancy Pelosi," said Democratic media specialist James Duffy. "In my mind she is driving the bus, and she will drive it right over the Clintons and if they miss the fact they got run over, she will back up and run over them again."

GAKaren: It just now occurred to me why the Obama campaign was so "gracious" with Florida and so petty with Michigan ... he is running behind in Florida and, unlike some other states, Florida has been getting more Republican rather than less in recent years. But I'll bet their internal polls show that Michigan is going to go solidly Democratic again ....

"I do much of my research and scholarship over late19th/20th century American literature through the analytical framework of literary criticism and marxist/socialist notions of utopia"

Oh oh. We have another researcher in the crowd. Be careful PoU (I'll stick in the little "o"). You may end up getting tasked regularly to go find out stuff.

When things calm down, shall we discuss The Amana Colony?

The word I have heard is that many "blue collar" people think Obama can not win period. End of story. They are not even giving it a second thought, just not going to happen in their minds. - Just reporting what I have heard, from the union people, and blue collar managers, and comment I have heard second hand.

Thanks, Jamie!

Ya know, most have strong opinions, but hasn't this been the most invigorating campaign of recent memory? Now... if the democrats can only unify when this is done and #1 understand the candidate's platform and message; and #2 support whole-heartedly the quest to the white house rather than eating sour grapes

I wonder if the BREAKING NEWS: Michelle’s Whitey Problem is what Hannity has been teasing us with.

Could it be releated to Obama leaving his church today. If this is the October surprise then Hillary won't be quitting yet.

The new BOSS. He cut a deal for party unity on his terms. He even got in on the action with a percentage of the Michigan delegates even though he wasn't on the ballot. What a coup! All the capos in Chicago must be proud! All in the great Daley party machine tradition. And the pundits weren't sure he could do back room deals with the big boys.

Maggi: Obama, Axlerod, Pelosi, Dean et. al think that this is all going to go away in time for the general election. Problem is Obama is an arrogant little shit (think George W. Bush) that thinks he truly does walk on water. People aren't going to forget this. Even if Michigan is leaning Democratic I still think that Obama's negatives (which are increasing) will make that state closer than we think.

It's interesting, everyone talks about Hillary Clinton's negatives but the closer we get to the convention and the general election, the more distasteful Obama gets.

Politics of Utopia:

I guess you don't go to church very often. Resigning from a church is not the same as going back on an agreement you signed. Stop reaching.

Dog,
I do not think I have ever said anything about Obama and cult mentalities....I really stay away from commenting on Obama supporters....If I said it ages ago, I am sorry. Everyone can support whom ever they choose.

The intent of the quote was directed to individuals ( as in "we the people" and our rights as voters)...not the candidates....sorry again. I thought it was clear enough.

And the pundits weren't sure he could do back room deals with the big boys. Posted by: Carl

He's not the brains. He's the pawn.

Burrito, I can just see him getting a brand new set of Sears work clothes and heading to a job site to press the flesh. He'll be as genuine as whats-his-name was with his head sticking out of the tank.

It this is a big story then why wait until Monday. It would be a perfect time to release it. If there is a tape out then some other network has got to have it too. Each networks wants to outdue the other. Also they don't want the bloggers to beat them to the punch. CNN first reported Obama was leaving the church by saying it was out on the blog.

Chloe: Amen. Perhaps we should elect David Axelrod.

People aren't going to forget this. Posted by: GAKaren

That says it all.
I couldn't if I tried.
And I don't feel forgiving.

PoU: In your studies of Utopia, have you ever read about New Harmony Indiana?

Chloe: What's to forgive? The man of Change, the man who brings us the politics of Hope, the Uniter has once again demonstrated that he knows how to play hardball ... just like your average run of the mill Chicago politician.

Obama is an arrogant little shit (think George W. Bush) that thinks he truly does walk on water. GAKaren

You can say that again.

That's how I've seen him for a long time.
I tried to like him, but his arrogance kept getting in the way.

Hey I like a good tinfoil hat story as much as anyone but I'm really skeptical about the Michelle tape.

If it truly does exist I doubt this tape will ever see the light of day and in all honesty why would the Republicans want to see it released now instead of October?

If the tape does surface before the convention one would think it is coming directly from the Clintons. I think that would be political suicide for Senator Clinton at this point.

"You know if Jamie's kids or grand children had such a gutter mouth she'd wash their mouths out with soap"

ABsolutely not. Their vocabulary is good enough they don't need to use four letter words as adjectives.

vadaryl ----------------------

Yes. I hope this is REALLY coming from the Clinton campaign and Larry Johnson is using the Repubs as a cover. Maybe the DNC's actions a few hours caused Hillary to give LJ the "attack and destroy" signal.

... just like your average run of the mill Chicago politician.
Posted by: maggisd

Maggi, that's how I've seen him for a long time.
But with what's behind him, how can you fight it.

Hillary is doing the only thing she can. And I think she knows this is all she can do. Don't let anyone tell you that popular vote doesn't give her bragging rights. We can all brag now.

Most of these Hillary supporters of the ilk that were protesting and disrupting proceedings today, are borderline republicans anyway. For the last several months they have been spouting Fox News, Limbaugh and other bastions of right-wing propaganda like it's FACT instead of fiction meant to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do...namely, VOTE FOR MCCAIN. Which is exactly what they are all planning to do despite his vow to overturn Roe v. Wade and continue the war.

Fox got you by their sympathetic reporting on Clinton. Do you think they LIKE her? RESPECT her and genuinely want to see her succeed against the "boys club? They are using you to do their bidding and elect the republican candidate in a year when the republican candidate SHOULD have been unelectable.

You'll realize this in a couple of years when the damage is done and think "why did I ever think that I had to vote for McCain??" YOu should wake up before it's too late.

Dog,
The stories I have heard- they do not even follow the race, or read the news at this point. They just do not believe for one second that Obama will ever win. I told you, these are people who have expressed their opinions, they are not expressing them to debate you.....they are just speaking their minds.
That's all - nothing more.

Election tomorrow.
see you then

Denver! Denver!..Old indian chant LOL good one Christi.

Karen,

Suicide?

I think she's at the point where getting even is looking pretty good. I bet she can make a lot of disloyal people pretty uncomfortable.

She obviously enjoys her day job in the Senate, her seat should be safe by now, and she can lean back and pontificate. So, that gives her something to fall back on after she tires of getting even.

I hope the deal closes soon.

Then maybe someone can tell me why Obama deserves my vote.

If anyone can tell me early , go for it.

Chloe: Thanks. I'm using colorful language today because I'm quite upset.

I know people like to get all sanctimonious about "gutter" language, but sometimes they are the right words for a particular situation.

Whatever Dog,
They are not particular well informed, nor do they care. They vote, and hopefully their votes will counts just as much as yours and mine.

This would have been bittersweet for me, as an Obama supporter (and former Clinton supporter) had the Clintons ran a different kind of campaign. Now? I'm just glad to leave the past in the past and move on with Sen. Obama as the party's future.

The past 16 years have benefited the Clintons, but it's done little for the Democratic Party. Gore, Kerry, 1996, etc, etc, etc.

"I've had my own friends sadly tell me they do not think "other people" will vote for a black man for president in 2008."

Dog, that's too bad. I think the country has been ready for at least a dozen years to readily accept a person of color as president.

Are your friends in one of the professions?

Hillary won't have to get even. Obama's loss in November will change things dramatically.

GAKaren,
What th f*ck are you talking about? If words did not have purpose they would not exist.....would they?

j/k : )

Unity--difficult to imagine

As per abcnews--Obama won't wait for Clinton Concession.

Obama's camp expects to win about 38 delegates in 3 upcoming primaries, he would need appr. 30 sd's to win the nomination.

"Asked if Obama would wait to get a concession call from Clinton before claiming the nomination an Obama advisor Anita Dunn said the onus was on Clinton now that the Dem. Pary has firmed up the # of delegates to claim the party's nod.

"He's not going to wait by the phone like a high-school girl waiting for a date. That's not Barack Obama."

"After Tuseday, Clinton can decide how united she wants this party to be."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/obama-wont-wait.html

I am so tired of this racial nonsense.

I don't like Barack Obama. It is not the color of his skin, it is his behavior. It is my right to not like a candidate. That is why we have elections.

I truly liked Obama when the primary began. IMO, the primary has revealed his true nature and a definite lack of character. There is nothing sinister about it, he is not my choice for President no matter what his ethnic/racial background is.

Oh that is so Obama camp ....to equate Obama to someone in highschool.....next Hannah Montana will be having Obama's baby.

Lotta Obama haters on this site.
Go Barack!
Rest of you haters, vote for McCain.
Morons.

Coreen: Thank you for the link. My the "new" politics of change. Obama is so different.

What a joke.

UB: LOL.

I think that the Obama people want us to vote McCain. I have asked for reasons to give my vote to Obama....but no one has provided any....not a single one....

(Voting against McCain doesn't qualify)

Yes, Dog, getting even is worthwhile. I view people who are disloyal to the extent that many of her SDs were, as nothing more than camp followers who should be run out of town.

Right or wrong, people have to be trusted to have your back and vice versa.

HRC and Obama both knew the rules before the primaries started. She chose the "big state" strategy and he the 50 state strategy. He and his team new the rules, understood them, and used them to their advantage.

HRC has worked hard to prove that she is just as worthy of the nomination as any man. The problem is when she started losing she started whining and calling it sexism. Did you hear Obama whine when over 20% in WV and KY said they voted AGAINST him and FOR HRC based on his race. No. He said he had more work to do to try to convince the people to vote for him.

Over the past few months HRC has proven herself to be unworthy of the Presidency based on her actions and statements. She is like the current President, unable and unwilling to admit to her mistakes and blaming others for them.

The display of her supporters today in Washington was a sad reflection of HRC and her campaign. Ickes and the rest of HRC supporters are crying foul over MI and FL when they should be happy they got anything at all. The FAIR result would have been to uphold the previous DNC ruling and give them zero votes for the convention. Then where would HRC be now. I suppose still crying over her "sexist" and unfair treatment. The members compromised so that never state would feel they did not have a voice in the election process and still HRC supporters whine. Obama was gracious to allow the seating of the delegates when the fair and honest thing to do was to not seat them all per the DNC rules that Ickes along with other HRC supporters on the committee who complained voted for.

The election was stolen from HRC. She lost it fair and square.

Dog

Andrea's comment is just more of the same. I doubt that many of the Clinton supporters will vote for McCain. They are much more likely to either not vote or vote 3rd party. The effect might be the same, but they aren't borderline Republicans. They are moderate Democrats finally pushed out of the party by the losing leftists who would rather have talking points than Presidents.

Unfortunately for them, Sen Obama is not a true leftist. He is the bought and paid for pawn of the power players like Axelrod.

Stereo: Don't tell me whom to vote for, who do you think you are, MSNBC?

I'm sorry if you're not mature enough to accept the fact that not EVERYONE loves your candidate.

I have no intention of voting for either Senator Obama or Senator McCain.

Grow up, goofy, this isn't class president we're talking about.

Hi Craig;
It's time to concentrate on McBush now. His free ride on Nancy's Bus is over. He should assume his new position UNDER the wheels.

Correction to my last line:

The election was NOT stolen for HRC. She lost it fair and square.

The only people under the bus are granny and Jermiah and now Fr. Phlegler

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/mccain_seen_as_candidate_most_likely_to_reach_across_party_lines

McCain is the candidate likely to reach across party lines.

And now for something completely different...

http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/05/clinton-support.html

I don't understand, unlikely_burrito, why anyone has to give you a reason to vote for Obama. Either you believe he has your interests and the best interest of this nation at heart, or you don't.

Either you believe he's a better option than McCain, or you don't.

What are you looking for?

Obama needs bigger wheels for his bus. Like a monster truck.

He can let Pelosi drive and hit reverse whenever she wants.

Obama is an arrogant little shit (think George W. Bush) that thinks he truly does walk on water. GAKaren

You can say that again.

That's how I've seen him for a long time.
I tried to like him, but his arrogance kept getting in the way.

Right. And HRC is a poor, humble, working-class gal. She'll win SD though, we are proud of the fact that we are poor, uneducated, and spend all of our time trying to make abortion illegal.

Who are we to try and reason with HRC supporters who want to vote for McCain because they are pissed off that their candidate didn't win? Because CLEARLY politics is the same as getting pissed off at the service you get at Macy's and crossing the street to Bloomingdale's in protest. Except here's the thing, ladies...in this case, THEY DON'T ALL SELL THE SAME BLOUSE. You are buying into a party of impossible wars and limited reproductive rights, not to mention fiscal irresponsibility and no education policy. Do you like having an environment? You can kiss that goodbye too.

But you go right ahead and throw your hat in with the people who have "been nice" to Hillary Clinton. Maybe McCain will thank you in his acceptance speech for falling so nicely in line.

CT: I feel the same way. I use to have such passion for this stuff. It's gone now and I think I'll be better off.

Carol

Stick around. It's much more interesting around here when we're not fighting. Besides there better be something interesting on the WA ballot other than president, or I will be getting a nice day of rest as well.

Interesting timing by Larry Johnson at NO Quarter - posted at 7:59 PM tonight, just after that disgraceful display by the DNC. This is following a pattern which would be expected before the dropping of devastating "scandal" bomb - it's best to make preliminary preparations by putting out some hints over a few weeks. Seems like LJ must know something to write "new and dramatic developments".

is this the way you want you children to act when they happen to lose a contest? Is this how you taught your children to behave? Please, you people are as big a loser as Hillary is tonight. Good grief, grow up.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

I think there are many people who would normally vote for a democrat that will be voting for McCain because of his military experience and knowledge. I find this to be the case with my friends who have family members in Iraq or enlisted.

Jack, I wish I knew the answer. I think as time goes on there is going to be a great shift.....I do not think this will be a close GE. not at all.

People, it's over. O V E R, over.

Barack Obama will be the next US President. Hillary will have to wait 4 years. If she chooses to take this decision to task, she may as well hang up her hat and forget about ever having a voice. She will be treated like the "disgruntled" politician she is being.

No one likes to lose, but there's a point where you have to save face and bow out gracefully.

Good night, and good luck.

is this the way you want you children to act when they happen to win a contest? Is this how you taught your children to behave? Please, you people are as big a loser as Obama is tonight. Good grief, grow up.

Horse: It's Obama's supporters that have been threatening riots in the streets if they don't get their way.

Be careful with those stones when you live in such a big glass house.

Didn't Johnson have to post a warning to his posters about not sending death threats to the Obamas and that several cases were already under investigation by the Secret Service? There have been nothing BUT threats from the 'No Quarter' crowd. It's what they do best, make threats against the Obamas.... a few of them finally took it to far, but I see it's not enough to stop the hate train from rolling.

I would vote for a rock before I vote for McCain. Seriously, after the past eight years Clinton supporters are going to pout, stay home, or vote for McCain???

Maybe if Bill kept it in his pants and didn't get impeached Al Gore could have used him to campaign for him in 2000. Ever think about that?

"Rob" - It would make more sense if you would call yourself Keith. For the record, though, neither you or Olbermann are Edward R. Murrow.

Did that Larry Sinclair cause any stir today?

McCain doesn't know the difference between the Shia and the Sunni. He doesn't know how long we've had diplomatic relations with Iran. When called on the belief that Americans would tolerate a hundred years of war if necessary, he conveniently wittled it down to about 'four' years. Why would anyone select McCain because of his military experience?

DANGER!

please site some sources Karen because I really don't believe you

Listen to your compadres here on Trail Mix didnt you call Obama a little shit? how respectful is that. do you kiss you children with that mouth?

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

I actually think that Sen. Obama will become President. I also think that he will be a very bad one. The only saving grace, McCain would be worse.

Denni,
I was just looking for any indication that Obama was a better candidate for the POTUS then McCain.....that's all, I wasn't asking for much......

I guess, I should just admit HRC lost and vote McCain. It seems everyone wants us( HRC supporters) to shut up, especially when we ask questions, that apparently no one can answer.

Horse: Yes, I did call Obama a little shit which is nothing compared to what you and your compatriots have been calling Hillary Clinton during this primary, so stuff your sanctimony!

It's called google. If you're too lazy to look for yourself, don't ask about it.

Jamie,

he could be the best president that this country could have ever had and you would say he was the worst.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Horse: You can start with Jesse Jackson, Jr.

Vadryl: Nothing from Larry Sinclair but Monica called. She's still waiting for the $12 it cost her to get her dress cleaned.

What a lousy day, the Pens just lost, Obama left his church.

"first time in 16 years the Clintons are no longer in charge of the Democratic Party."
What about Kerry in 04?

Burrito!

I didn't see your request...here's a reason...the Supreme Court!!! The next president will have the opportunity to nominate two, and perhaps three, justices. No one on this list will live long enough to see us come out from under rigid conservative rule if the next president is not a Democrat. If that's not a reason to vote for Obama, I don't know what is!

then don't expect me to believe anything you ever say. I have NEVER said anything like that about Hillary but you don't care I have always said I was voting for whomever the Dems put up Unlike you I vote for the party and not because of my plumbing

stuff it up your sanctimony yourownself you are the loser here and don't forget it.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Take a few deep breaths everyone. Calm down and quit being so hateful and angry.

You speak of a confident BI-RACIAL young man as being arrogant? What about the arrogance projected by Hillary for thinking she was and still is entitled to the nomination?

If she was a woman by another name, she would not be in this position in the first place b/c Obama ran a great campaign and always stayed positive w/o slamming Hillary's gender or race, unlike Hillary. Her name alone garnered many votes. The fact that she had a leg up on every candidate in the beginning and then lost that to a junior senator show an incredible lack of planning and irresponsibility on her part. She started playing dirty and using republican tactics. Shame on her.

I would love for a woman to be president, but after she started showing her true colors, my support went straight to Obama.

By the way, Obama would never be in the same situation, IMHO, b/c he would have dropped out to save party unity and not sabatoge the party's chances come Nov for a self-serving need for power.

I'm getting ready for the 2012 primary season. How should we screw up that election.

vadaryl ------------------

This is a link to Larry Sinclair's blog:

http://larrysinclair0926.wordpress.com/

Unlikely, the question has been answered at every step of this election. There's nothing but information on Sen. Obama. Go to his website. Read his policies, go to the Library of Congress 'Thomas' site and look at the hundreds of pieces of legislation he's been a part of. Look at the winning 50 state strategy he's put together. If you still don't like what you see, vote John McCain.

Maybe this isn't your intent, but I've been reading a lot of comments from Clinton supporters that seem to indicate that they want Obama supporters to grovel for a vote for Obama. Uh, no.

HRC Supporters have so much class. And accuse Obama and his supporters of sexism. What about their racism?

The video today of the woman who was tossed from the press room today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

One thing Obama has not mastered with regard to the art of public speaking: The press conference. Stilted. Slow. Indecisive. Painful. I was praying that one of his handlers would cut the darn thing off.

Maybe the deserved accoldates for his impressive public speaking skills should have a disclaimer:

*only spectacular in front of crowds numbering 300 Obamaniacs or more.

I"f she was a woman by another name, she would not be in this position in the first place b/c Obama ran a great campaign and always stayed positive w/o slamming Hillary's gender or race, unlike Hillary. Her name alone garnered many votes. The fact that she had a leg up on every candidate in the beginning and then lost that to a junior senator show an incredible lack of planning and irresponsibility on her part. She started playing dirty and using republican tactics. Shame on her"

delusional bullshit
you are insane and an idiot

Dooty

What is it about Obama supporters that they have to tell us what we are thinking? If he turns out to be a great president, I will be proud of him. I just don't expect it to happen. It would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.

If you do your thinking for yourself, I'll be glad to handle my own.

Denver! Denver!

Senator Clinton is better than Kennedy or OBAMA (in my opinion) and after what Kennedy said about Hillary about her not being competent is going to be his legacy for me.

I have NO respect for him and it is simply because - he doesn't deserve it. He stabbed Hillary in her back (in my opinion) for a relatively unknown and a CHICAGO Daley stooge. I doubt it, but if this person becomes pResident, then once more we will have someone in the white house, who is unlearned and doesn't know anything or CARE about anything but himself.

I am a Black female who has fought in the civil rights movement and have been an activist for over 30 years and this young African American has literally destroyed everything I believe in. My years as a community activist has just become a joke. The Obamas of the world make me sick - Republicans dressed up as Democrats and try and make others believe they care
about African Americans. Maybe he does care about African Ameericans, but I really don't believe so. I fought very hard to move up from being called 'COLORED' to be called and thought of as Black - Mr. Obama, Jesse Jackson nor any of the other sell outs in my culture gets the right to call me what they want - I choose to be a Black female born in the middle forties, fought for my people and still believe in something - it just doesn't happen to have anything to do with Mr. Obama.

Let me explain why I don't like nor believe in this man:

1. He began this campaign by 'transcending RACE' which leaves me out of the equation.

2. He couldn't be bothered with attending the 'STATE OF THE BLACK UNION' any of the two years he was asked.

3. He first threw his wife under the bus - it was evident he stopped campaigning with her. Loyaty is not a strong suit with this man.

4. Obama has allowed his followers to call us (women) everything and has yet to denounce the sexism.

And then finally when he didn't have time to attend the MLKing commemoration in Nashville, TN - King was told not to go by his handlers also, but he went (and paid the ultimate price).

THE Democratic Party has done just exactly what the Republicans did in 2000 - I felt it then and NOW the stench is overwhelming.

NO - I will not vote for McCain and WILL NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA - MY UNITY FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WILL BE TO ASK FOR A WRITE IN BALLOT AND CAST MY VOTE FOR SENATOR HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. So there Mr. Dean and all the other Misters in the party.

Horse: Neener. Neener.

Melanie: Enough with the Obama talking points already. It is the fact that I see Obama as a PERSON not a bi-racial person that I can call him arrogant. Once again, it has nothing to do with the color of his skin it is his behavior.

Why do you feel the need to keep reducing Senator Obama to a bi-racial man to defend him? Quite frankly, it is Obama supporters that ride the race train all the time. You are essentially saying that Barack Obama cannot be criticized because of the color of his skin. IMO, that is really demeaning.

"Dooty

What is it about Obama supporters that they have to tell us what we are thinking? If he turns out to be a great president, I will be proud of him. I just don't expect it to happen. It would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.

If you do your thinking for yourself, I'll be glad to handle my own."

jamie the reason I said that was because there has never been any indication that you would ever change your mind about Obama. You have been very consistent in saying that he is not ready and I would never vote for him. How am I supposed to think anything otherwise.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

At least you're smart enough to get the joke.

Karen, it's not your time. Wait 4 more years and maybe, just maybe, it will be.

GAKaren,

Neener Neener? How old are you anyway?

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Horse: I was answering you in the manner your comments deserved.

Hey Kincaid,

That's the beauty about our country. Vote you pleasure! I do

Dooty

"he could be the best president that this country could have ever had and you would say he was the worst."

Just because nothing Sen. Obama has shown me so far makes me think he is suitable for the job, doesn't mean that I wouldn't acknowledge it if he proved me wrong.

Just because someone thinks something in the present doesn't mean they will automatically think the same thing in the future. I judge EVERYTHING by my analysis of what is happening at the time I make the judgement when coupled with experience and history.

While I respect McCain's service to his country in the Vietnam war, I have not seen anything from him that would make me think he would be a better commander-in-chief. In fact, his ranking in his class is cause for alarm.

He is not the brightest bulb on the circuit and he has by his own admission said he doesn't know anything about the economy. I have no confidence in his abilities and I have been quite disgusted with him since he decided to crawl up Bush's behind and stay there. I do not understand how he became Bush's errand boy after what Rove and Bush did to him in South Carolina in 2000. For that alone, I would never vote for the man.

Dog,
What do you mean by "enough"? Please explain. I would hate to take it the wrong way.

"Does anyone else think that the event was timed so that Obama would have an excuse to break from the church in preperation for the general election and also to minimize the amount of coverage?"

I have to disagree with this. If he wanted an excuse to break from church, it would have mad more sense for the priest to mock HRC without mentioning she felt entitled BECAUSE she was white...as that just makes things worse for Obama. Would've made more sense to just have him mock her feeling entitled. Portraying her as feeling that way b/c Obama's black and she's white wasn't needed. Plus, I can't imagine that a Catholic priest would PLAN to say something ins a planned effort to help Obama. The guy may be a nut, but I think a conspiracy plan is a bit much.

I don't see what any Clinton supporter could be upset about. They apportioned the majority of delegates to her in both states! What's left to complain about? She lost! She ran a bad campaign and she underestimated Obama and how sick this nation is of "politics as usual". There is no one to blame but herself and her advisers. Let's all rally around Obama and get him into the Whitehouse!

Denni
The fact that most of you Obama supporters so despice President Clinton the only Democrat to hold 2 terms in office and all the good he has done just mistifies me??? Yet another reason why i am no longer a Democrat.Proud Im sure you are!!!!

or, rather the White House...

tonyb39,

The Independents welcome you with open arms. : )

Hi.

The Michigan compromise was irrespective of the vote. They just allocated delegates in an arbitrary fashion with a minor consideration for Hillary. That was done because if they gave HRC the 4 delegates she asked for, it would have been based on the vote. By delegitimizing the Michigan primary they took away HRC ability to count the votes casts in that primary, so she can no longer make the popular vote argument. That is why Obama’s people were not in favor of giving her those 4 delegates, and I don’t blame them. HRC showed that you cannot be magnanimous to her, she will bite your hand at every opportunity.

As far the divided party goes, Obama may not be able to unit it, but McCain sure will. Only the most selfish, spiteful Democrats and Independents will look at their children and grandchildren and pull the level for McCain. And those that do, will never be able to look their progeny in the eyes and tell them: “Yes I screwed you and voted for McCain out of personal revenge.”

On the topic of the White House qualification, I submit the following illustration. Obama, an unknown, beat HRC, with all her name recognition, financial backing, and party clout by using and understanding party rules. Some of you will point out that this make Obama a politician, and I would agree. After all, he is running for a political office, and a job as an accountant. But while being a politician, through out his campaign, he should an even keel character, and higher moral scruples than HRC. After all, I never heard him say that McCain would be a better president than Clinton, or that it would be great that the presidential election had two real patriots competing for the office. I think he will be just as astute in mastering the rules of being a president which will be of great value to move forward the people’s agenda.

Alicia: Is the political climate in VA ripe for an ERA resolution? It sounds pretty interesting.

Unlikely B
Thankyou It felt so Liberating especially here in Florida the scene of one of the DNCs crimes!!!

Tony: It is quite liberating. Next order of business is to get off the DNC's fundraising lists. They've seen their last shekels from me.

New sheriff says "Now I must face a man that hates me..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRWzs5Q2N0

The power is in each of us. It is only when we think our voice doesn't matter that we quit speaking. Never quit.

you could not kiss obama's ass any more lustily could you crawford ????

enjoy all brown nosing you can until Nov...

mccain 2008 !!!!!

This is the first year I sent money....and guess what......it is the last year!!!

The race is won, so no need to rub Clinton supporters noses in it. I'll only react to comments that are either anti Obama or are making statements about why Clinton lost that puts it down to some sort of underhandedness. Hillary lost for a number of reasons that we've gone over ad nauseum on this blog.

Right now, I'm just intrigued by all of the "McCain" fans. Nothing says delusion than moving from a left of center, pro choice, woman to a militaristic, far right, pro life neo con who supports eternal war.

That's some really movable politics, but I like the multiple reasons why Obama is simply unacceptable to these people. Always everything but race, except for the code word of "arrogant" (see: uppity).

So post on...

Dog,
You have a problem with what I said? Over the top of what? Your personal comfort zone? Or your self-absorbed safety zone that you and your loved ones aren't the ones dying in Iraq?

GAKaren
Me too!! I have called them and told them never to send anything to me again and I have returned the latest survey and a personal note telling them Im no longer a Democrat thanks to there undemocratc ways and to leave me alone all to no avail I received something today pleading for donations for the congressional canidates and I wrote No Way!!! and sent it back!!

Poor Craig,

He gets lambasted by the Obama folks for being a Hillary sympathiser even when he just lays out the facts as they are.

Now he just lays out the facts as they are and he gets called an Obama brown nose.

Anika ... stick around long enough to get to know and honest and decent man, or shut up and go away.

I watched part of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee on C-SPAN today. Democrats are like cats, can't be herded and Repubs surely are the dogs.

That Michigan thing is screwed up. The whole thing is screwed up.

Chaos Theory is exactly what Dems do. It's in our blood. And God do they (we) talk a lot.

tt

Dog,
I see what color your blood is, it is best we stop discussing this.

peace~

Barack Obama is now the boss of the Democratic Party? OK, as of today, I am no longer a member of the Democratic Party. Obama is a loser. He states today in South Dakota that he is leaving his church to protect the church from media scrutiny. He is not leaving the church as a stand against the racial divisiveness they create. What a loser. He does not represent the feelings of the majority of Americans.
I will never vote for him.

ditto what Jamie said.....if I said "xerox it", it would be a blunder.
- but the point would remain the same. : )

Becky,

The Independents welcome you with open arms. : )

And the powerless do too...

Jamie, I'd just say to anika, STFU.

tt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6pphVs8bF0

csn&y

teach your children

".......and know they love you"

GA Karen There is a new Melanie! I am the one from GA who agrees with you and all the Clinton supporters. I would NEVER defend Obama. Should get a key , but I don't really feel like sticking around. Have enjoyed you GAKaren, Heather, Patsi and Jaime. Thanks!

Jamie
Well said Craig gets it from all sides!!! Anika pay attention Craig is a real Journalist.Nothin But the Truth This aint msnbc or cnn here!!!

Dog

I didn't really think he was. His posts are too literate, informative and to the point even when I disagree with them. It was the old "uppity" bit that caused the response.

Dog

I like Harold Ford, but I'm not a major fan. I like Willie Brown.

Mr.democrat
I was just beginning to have a newfound respect for you.Man why say the only reason i don't like or trust Sen.Obama is because he is a person of mixed race? I can't just feel in my bones that this guy is not to be trusted just like i felt about GWB when in a debate with A.Gore he said you see what we do them in Texas don't you we put them to death!!! I thought the arrogance of this man!!! NOT about race then NOT about race now!!!! Think about this M.D.Please

For anyone who does not know about Willie or who isn't a fan. Check this out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Lewis_Brown,_Jr.

He has a new book out that will become my summer reading.

Dog,
I appreciate your story and respect it. Do you understand how someone that is facing death on a daily basis, because of a President who is inept , is a bit weary of some person who has absolutely no experience taking over?

It is not to be unexpected. In this regard, I think, I myself would opt for experience.

While everyone here is bitching about the color of skin or pants suits, others are being deployed in to hell. One of mine is heading to Iraq within the week. The family is a wreck, emotions are raw.......no one gives a sh*t if Obama is white or if Hillary is a b*tch or not....

I do not know if this makes the whole thing any more real to you....or not. Once these soldiers go to Iraq - they are never the same. The return different people,damaged people, if they return at all.

Who are you people? You are all so calm and rational...able to argue complexity while gracious. It's like no other comments/blogs I've read in regards to the Dems this year.

The event prior to today do not matter in reality. We are in a place that is very bad, and has to be corrected.

I do not think that concentrating on sound bites that the MSM SPOON feeds to its lame viewers is helpful.

Obama's judgement is constantly being thrown off the bus

Supreme Court is too good a job for her. Ambassador to Burkina Faso.

ae

We were a community before these primaries and we will be a community after the election. At the moment we are all rather edgy and grouchy, but we are still actually speaking to each other not just shouting into a void.

If you want to join the conversation, please do so.

I think all of you Clinton loyalist are ridiculous. To jump ship on your party because you don't get your way, is childish and immature. Bill Clinton is not the savior of the Democratic party, if memory serves, Dems lost the house and senate after he was elected, and I won't mention that he was IMPEACHED. This is an election not a beauty contest. America's problems are bigger than the Clintons and your ego. I am offended that you would want to affliate yourself with my party - Independent. I personally think the Dem voters made a right decision with Obama, in case you forgot, he is in the lead, I guess the voters SPOKE after all.

Hey moron the vote today did not invalidate the popular vote totals.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Now that the DNC has recognized the Florida and Michigan primaries by agreeing to seat all of their delegates, the party has to recognize the popular votes in those states. The elections are no longer "illegitimate." Flawed, perhaps, but illegitimate, no.

The way it is, the DNC cannot change the numbers of votes cast the way it did delegates. These were certified state elections with firm vote totals. Barack Obama removed himself voluntarily from the ballot. Hillary has to be allotted her votes, and he has to accept the consequences of his action, which is that he gets none of the popular vote in Michigan.

As a result, by any count, Hillary Clinton now leads in the popular vote. From Real Clear Politics:

To quote Senator Boxer Elections have consequences

Unlikely B
Yes we are in a bad place.I don't really no what to do from here normally I would be looking for a change to a Democrat to help change things for the better but sorry to say not the case now.I knew the other day when some commentator on the radio was saying the Democrats would pickup alot of seats this year and it didn't make a difference to me that I have changed and so has the Democratic Party and im afraid not for the better.

BrainvsBrawn

The really nice thing about a democracy is that you are not forced to vote for someone you think would be a mistake nor are you required to support a party that you think has made a disastrous error .

Unless the Democratic party now wishes to copy the Communist party and require that ONLY members have rights, I would suggest that we are free to leave any time they no longer represent our beliefs and ideals.

he is in the lead, I guess the voters SPOKE after all.

the big ginganormous lead of a very few votes
the voters have spoken but not very conclusively and the only way Obama wins is to suppress votes and disenfranchise voters

hardly the voters speaking
another obamabot who is an idiot

How can any Clinton supporters argue with a straight face Clinton actually gives a damn about democracy? She certainly didn't care (about MI and FL) when she was the de facto nominee, and for everyone, Ickes especially, to be argue so vociferously to the contrary is as about as disingenuos as one, or many as it were, can get.

How about Ickes, using the word 'ass' as if his arguent was so righteous he was above civility. What a scumbag.

See Dog, that is my issue with Obama...I do not think his judgment has been that great. I think his character is weak, as far as I have seen, and he is just not someone I would ever hire.

If his wife were running, I bet she would be a much stronger candidate. I do not like her (personally) , but I believe she has a strong sense of self and I respect her strength of conviction. I think she could get the job done, and I think she could do great things for the country.

Her baggage is the wimpy man she is trying to hold up.

"Behind every great man there is a woman." <- someone else said that not me

Hey DB moron
we don''t elect the president by caucus either
more pointless drivel from the morons cruising for a drubbing in the fall

BrainVsBraun
To late Independent i am and Im here to tell ya its not just your party.The Democratic Party left me Im not the first person to say that and after today I wont be the last.

Wow, typos look even more egregious in quotation. Yikes!

Everyone get a grip.
This man (BHO) is running the first 21st Century campaign.
Why would you want to be associated with the last 20th century campaign (HRC/JM)!

It doesn't matter much now does it ?

The whole thing is a disgrace. They will never fix it. They like it this way.

If the money stops, they will re-evaluate.

I know a way way for Bill and Hillary to become relevant again. Hillary makes a pitch to become McCains V.P. !!!!! A Centrist/Unity ticket!! She will get her revenge and they will stand a good chance of winning.

This man (BHO) is running the first 21st Century campaign

more horsedooty from the Obamabots

Dean ran the first 21st Century campaign
Obama relied on old school politics and using rightwing media narratives and flat out lying.
Nothing new about that

Poor troll your candidate lost. . get a life, move on

Posted by: DBCooper | June 1, 2008 12:31 AM

As opposed to the delusional lies you spread around
you clueless jerk

I'm a white boy in Philly who started out as a Hillary supporter in the beginning. But as her campaign started rolling she lost me.

Her staff is a bunch of wonks that have obviously taken a page from the Rove strategy playbook on how to pander to idiots. A gas tax holiday? Puh-leeze, who thinks this is a good idea? Pay it with a windfall profit tax? Like the oil companies aren't just gonna' pass that down to the guy at the pump.

Mark Penn? This is the best you can do, this guy a pure money lobbyist who didn't even know about delegate apportionment . She hired people out of loyalty instead of their skill sets, haven't we seen enough of that already? Heck of job Brownie!

Her campaign is broke-- she can't manage her money, how is she going to manage ours?

She is constantly stretching the truth or outright lying about facts and figures (she's won the popular vote, if you count this but not that and then divide by pi, snipers, 35 years experience etc.etc).

She's changed who she is on this campaign more times than I change underwear, she puts on fake accents, she a big gun advocate, she a real shot and beer girl etc etc.

So I'm voting for Obama in November, I'm an independent and here in the great commonwealth I can't vote in the primaries. Even if she does somehow pick up the nomination I'll still vote for her. Because while I respect McCain as a man, I really don't think we need a 72 year old white guy making decisions for us any more, especially one who is ready to pull the military option. Plus I would really like my civil liberties back, so there is no way I can pull a lever for a republican (I have in the pass, locally at least, never in a presidential race)

I ask of the Hillary supporters that say they will vote for a Republican instead of Obama, will you really throw out the chance to regain Habeas Corpus, individual privacy, proper goverment regulations over big corporations and risk a never ending money laundering scam called the Iraq War because your canidate didn't make it? Pretty foolish I must say...

Why hasn't the congress done anything when they had the majority?

what is wrong with them?

did they walk into cement?

they failed

"Why would you want to be associated with the last 20th century campaign (HRC/JM)!"

It won?

By "It won", I was referring to the Clinton male half of the team.

Sorry, but as a lawyer, I can tell you that Hillary Clinton would be a terrible Supreme Court Justice.

Being a member of a bar or two and having worked for a time as a lawyer does not make you a good Justice. A Supreme Court justice has to be able to look at both sides of an argument and to analyse law and facts with honesty. One needs a judicial brain.

Try something else for Hillary, not a justice.

Good night all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm9zHFzwxtI

Brains de Mush - It's over troll move along nothing else to see

Welcome Wayne! check it out

OK, forget Burkina Faso. How about Hillary Clinton for Ambassador to Bosnia? She'd be like a ninja, dodging sniper fire and getting Bosnian input on important matters.

in my company, I fire people that fail.

it's really simple, you fail, you're fired.

I guess politics is different......you're not fired until you are in jail.

my expectations are too high.....thank glue I have my book

It's late ....
peace~

Why is that every time some one posts that is a lawyer they have to inform everyone they are a lawyer? is it a secret code they follow or something?

LOL champ

You hit the nail Craig. Also, the followers of Obama hate Sen Clinton while the supporters of Sen Clinton hate and will never vote for Sen Obama.

TIME FOR A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE GUYS.

Sen Hillary Clinton, Independent Candidate for President

Hey lou - Welcome aboard we are gearing up for the General election. Come around often.

Night all

The entire drawer is posting tonight' along with Dumby Cooper

Must be a slow night at Union Station and the Minn. Airport

Astounding the number of Retuglican trolls here stiring up BS about what happened today.

I hope you realize that your efforts are wasted, and that Obama is going to destroy McCain in November.

Sock Lover- Damn you need help! Don't mix those meds.
with booze, it's a killa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

How was I supposed to know that there was somewhat of a civil debate going on on CRAIG CRAWFORD's blog. Is he the guy that's always on Olbermann chuckling about something?

"Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character."
~ Margaret Chase Smith

Posted by: unlikely_burrito | May 31, 2008 9:2 PM
============================

Damn! THat is soo true, ub ... I just wish that had been acknowledges by ALL BHO supporters this primary, instead of them keep telling us we should just shut TFU & accept who the DNC wants to shove down our throats!!!

I came back for this

Champ

Welcome aboard. For the huffpo transients. Whether we agree or disagree, this is a place (with a few exceptions) that respects ideas and conversations. We honestly do try to keep it civil and even when we fail, we try to pull back from the abyss and reflect the gentleman who allows us this space.

She could still sabotage his candidacy by manipulating her supporters into more childish behavior like they displayed today. I think she and Bill would do it just out of spite; I think they are THAT flummoxed right now.

Obviously i think it's a silly 2012 strategy also, and the fact that she probably HAS a 2012 strategy is exactly why the Clintons need to be as far away from the White House as possible. They don't care about the American people, they only care about being the most powerful people on earth and Bill being able to comand 1 million dollars to give a speech. Something tells me his fee might be going down a little.

Craig Crawford rocks!

Champ.....you must really be harpy now right?

Obama has made it clear he does not want the Clintons around.

Obama win or lose --it's all on him
It has nothing to do with the Clintons

Of course Obamabots are already looking for an excuse

Boy, we really do have a bunch of new Obama supporters on the blog. Welcome! I'm so used to being outnumbered by Clintonites that it's a bit strange to see. Maybe lurkers who now want to speak?

Anyway, Craig is right. We've now seen a transition that began in 2006 and will culminate with a landslide victory in 2008. This country tried Republicanism and is rapidly looking for the receipt. McCain is nothing but old, tired Republican conservative policy. In other words, he's Bob Dole.

Obama 08!

I think Al has become his own man....he likes it better when people want him. He'll cash in his "i.o.u.s" when appropriate.

What do you mean by 'harpy'? Do I sound like I'm gloating? Sorry, I'm just venting a little because Hillary's minions have been driving me nuts and no one in my family talks politics. I am an Obama supporter, but I don't drink Obama flavored kool-aid. He is the first politician in the national spotlight that deserves a shot, imo.

Inexperience is exactly what we need in Washington. The administrators of power don't build rockets or develop nanotechnology or perform brain surgury. They sit in plush well-furnished halls and resorts and shift money around and decide how you should live. Simple as that. Now that the Democratic party is congealing around Obama, do I think he will be any different; i.e. am I naive enough to believe that the SAME people won't be controlling us? No. But if there is one possible candidate who can shake things up a bit, in a good way, I think it's Barry.

Champ

I genuinely hope you are right. All I've seen is just one more Chicago Pol playing by Chicago rules with a hit man named Axelrod. No different, no change.

I am happy for you champ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwc5YSAc-7g

dixie chicks - ready to make nice

I really can't believe all this bickering amongst ourselves... In all reality Obama and Clinton have virtually identical policies which is why it turned from a campaign of ideas to a personality fight. Ultimately both would be a lot better than McCain. Anyone whether they be an Obama supporter or a Clinton supporter would be a complete fool not to vote for the other in the General Election... Shame on all of you for for being so partisan over who will lead the country in the right direction which is a democrat and not a republican. Swallow your pride and take a stand for what is best for the country, the world and your family and friends. If it Obama does secure the nomination support him and the same goes for Hillary too, though that is looking increasingly difficult.

Wow, Totally Blown away by all the Obama Supporters!

Welcome and stay awhile! Come back often and have good debate...of course not with me! We Agree. ;0)

Jamie,

Would you prefer a principled but spineless ninny like Gore and Kerry who let themselves get pushed around by hacks like Rove and Karen Hughes?

I'm giving the aforementioned the benefit of the doubt by calling them principled. Maybe I'm being too harsh with Gore, but Kerry totally rolled over.

Swallow your pride and take a stand for what is best for the country, the world and your family and friends. If it Obama does secure the nomination support him and the same goes for Hillary too, though that is looking increasingly difficult.

Posted by: melancholypoet | June 1, 2008 1:50 AM

Amen and pass the hot chocolate. I'm with you. You can come around again and help me pass that one out some more.

we just don't care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4R_oswROic&feature=related

well, Brain and Shiela, Obama would not approve. Why? Because he has class and tact. Foreign words to the Clintons.

"Would you prefer a principled but spineless ninny like Gore and Kerry who let themselves get pushed around by hacks like Rove and Karen Hughes?"

NO I would like a principled woman with a spine who seems to genuinely care about others rather than an inexperienced on a national or international level political hack who allows his minions to run rough shod over anybody and anything that gets in his way while pretending to some sort of high ideals.

Champ,

Love our mutual class act.

very nice intro champ, we have no class and tact.....wow

I think i am in love

Burrito,

You know thats not true. Clinton is a class act too. But its nice after all this time for someone to come on the blog and state and Obama is a class act.....pretty rare but welcome in my book!

Here comes that vote for me, On CSPAN

Dang, lot of action tonite! What a diffrence a day makes.lol

Craig, I see Huffpo linked you on their Pol page, great for traffic.

Welcome Obama nutz !

Poor UB :( Legend's a winner!

it's never going to change because the synergy has been set....it would take someone who had the skill to bring people together.

Jamie, didn't you post a while back an article that address the theory of first agitating your followers and then presenting them with solutions....something Obama learned from am mentor early on?

It's happening again.

I mean the following sincerely:

I am sorry for the modern feminist movement that they have installed such a poor representative as Hillary Clinton as their standard bearer, because she is just using them. There are plenty of examples of strong competent women besides her. There will be a female president someday, it is just a matter of time. I am sorry for those older women who don't believe they'll see it in their lifetime; they just picked the wrong horse.

How on earth can the feminist movement get behind a candidate who is still married to a womanizer who has had many many affairs while being married to her? Is that integrity? Of course not. It's a marriage of convenience, so she can maintain her death-grip on whatever power she can grab. Senator from New York- Puhleeze. I thought she was from Scranton. Oh wait, I mean Illinois. Oh wait, I mean Indiana, Oh wait, I mean Arkansas. Where exactly is she from again?

Legend is hot, I'd vote for him : )

UB

Yep. If you want the fun version watch The Music Man.

Create a problem then present a solution. It's the easiest way in the world to fleece the sheep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s

Burrito,

now I really like you and don't want to get your dander up and....I have only been listening to all of you for the last year and a half. But it seems to be that you all whipped yourselves up.

I have never seen so much misinformation get talked about to the point of Urban Legend. Too bad we don't have an Obama Urban Legend Site, but none of your would believe it anyway.

In truth, that is why I have never defended obama to you guys since last November. It did no good.

Oh Gosh,

I am going down hill fast. Hurry up and vote paleeze. I want to see what I missed.

" You don't want new comers getting the impression that you think of yourself as the center of the universe. "

Absolutely not. Why would I want your delusion?

Absolutely not. Why would I want your delusion?

Posted by: Jamie | June 1, 2008 2:17 AM

Spiting my coke on the computer! LOL

'Hissy fit' good one. He kind of reminds me of Heather Wilson with his tone.

"You wanted us all to be abuzz with her mooooves on the fieeeeld..."

Chef Nun (wow that's a nice abbreviation),

Are we confusing John Legend with real legend? I barely preach about HRC, so quite honestly it is difficult for you to upset me....I know you are for Obama man, that's okay, I do not think I ever told anyone to change their thoughts or votes or anything. So carry on , and enjoy the ride.

There are issue I am disappointing in, but they can not be fixed at this point. The future is only a ride, not to repeat he past.

What I like the most. "In the Best Interest of Party Unity"

Sheila,

Thank you for the LOL

I have windex if you haven't stocked the household yet>

he = the

Sorry Burrito,
I sincerely didn't want to upset you. I was using your words as a bridge to others so, carry on. ;0)

lol.....center of the universe

you can't upset me....: ) seriously....unless you pick on the service men and women...then my claws come out.

besides he has no defense ...... j/k

Wow Ickes was totally beyond upset. The word really IS stunned.

I can't remember ever seeing him like that. He's been so cucumber cool.

Well Burrito,

My son did three tours. He's safe for two more years and then its time again. I don't envy your family. Its a very helpless feeling.

is he on TV?

you'd be pretty stunned to when you finally realized that White House Chief of Staff appointment was out the door.

CSPAN

it sucks. basically. that's the long and short of it.

thanks.

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS

if you don't have a TV, like me

there's a live stream and a recording, because you missed Ickes on the former, he just finished

okay, it is way past my dream time.....take care everyone....I am happy for the winners......everyone else...well you suck!

( do I have to put j/k there or will people understand)

peace~

Good night Burrito and sweet dreams.

Champ,

Welcome, good to see an Obama man around. Got to tell you, with the exception of Jamie, all the hens are away, or asleep, so be prepared later when they show up. lol. Things can get pretty hot sometimes, but it's okay. You'll find a nice place here.

Later

For those staying up late after watching the C-SPAN replay, the MSNBC "first read" postings throughout the day are interesting

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/

oh, by the way, before this party ends...

is there a site as Pro-Clinton as Huffpo is Pro-Obama? Just curious. Mayeb You shouldn't tell me. Nothing good would come out of me participating on a forum there.

Nah, nevermind, go ahead and tell me

Wow some really rude supporters in the rules committee......

Taylor Marsh, My friend.

Champ

Stick around here. There are strong groups on both sides and if you are really really good, Chef Sheila has been known to bring in muffins in the morning.

Now one more attempt. Good night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQZJXkh88oM

i got it bookmarked. Good talking to you all. here's one for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22eubaCUNJU

I'm urging Hillary Clinton's 17 million voters to vote for John McCain in November. Obama lacks the judgement to lead.

All 17 million were waiting with bated breath for your input.

I thought so too. I'll pay! Jamie was on good behavior for the new guy ::)

Hey Michael, Urge ahead.

lol...Urge on, you crazy diamond

Our nation welfare hinges on the steadfast urging of righteous urgers such as himself.

I think the goal of unity is a long way coming yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM

why doesn't Hilary run as an Independent? She'd win.

Bethyboo? Are you insane? run as an Independent? ask Joe Lieberman how being an Idependent is going to work out for him. He no doubt after the 2008 elections are said and done.. and the Democrats have a stronger lead in the Senate will find his ass off his committee chairmanship.

You know Clinton has moved the freaking goal posts so far out I can't see them anymore. If she goes to Denver she hands the election to Mccain. None of the Parties leaders act like they are going to let that happen. The Speaker of the House came out and said as much! Are you going to accuse her of being unfair?

In interests of speaking the truth.. I have found this whole process interesting and stupid all in one breath.. Clinton has made a good run at this election... but... her goal was to give Obama a knock out punch during Super Tuesday... when that didn't happen then tother 'factors' came into play... Then the little comments by both sides just made me hide my head in shame... I will say this Obama didn't have his supporters yell out 'Lipstick on a pig' during the rules meeting...

This whole thing just needs to end and for all of you that say 'I'm voting for Mccain this fall!' Well you want to vote for Bush's 3rd term you go ahead. You want to make sure Rove V Wade is over turned. That the War in Iraq keeps on going. That the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That a man who claims he doesn't under stand what is going on with the ecomony.... That my friends is what you would be voting for if you just say it's unfair and walk away.

Now I will admit.. I voted for Clinton here in Texas, but I am not going to sit by and watch another Republican enter the white house...

You think Obama lacks the judgement to lead? Mccain didn't even know we aren't back yet to pre surge levels. He's against upping the GI Bill

Wake up my fellow Clinton supporters.. It is possible that Clinton could be on the ticket, and if not... Clinton will no doubt be supporting this ticket in some way...

Or... get ready..... Bucain is coming to a white house near you... and you will have nothing but yourselves who didn't vote to blame

I suggest you look at a few things before you jump ship... you might not like Obama... I don't like Hlllary.. but I will not stand for another Repuke in the WH...
This was a post from another site... but one that is worth looking to..

Wow… did it take me a long time to read through all of these posts… I have a few things that I would like to add.
First… for those of you who say that Obama has no record, I direct you to this site. This woman has done a marvelous job in researching the two democratic candidates work in the US Senate: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/ 201332/807

Executive orders and legislation have been fully explained as the terminology of being a professor or not. Though it is refreshing to find a candidate that so boldly states that we’ve been duped for the last 8 years and probably further back than that.

Second… Those of us that support Obama must do our best to ensure that the Swiftboating tactics don’t work this time.. and they will be out in force. He is a man of strong beliefs and ethics and, IMO.. to keep bringing up his church, which he has now left… (some will say for political expediency.. but I truly believe that it was a heart wrenching decision for him and his family. I still get people coming to me saying that he is muslim..that he sat in a Black Liberation Theology Christian Church for 20 years…. fear tactics) I believe that we have a more informed electorate this year… I believe that we are smarter than the Rovian tacticians take us for…

Regarding the voting for funding of the Iraq war… Obama put it pretty simply… once you have driven the bus over the cliff, you can’t do much less. To vote to stop funding the war would not have brought our troops home.. it would have just given them nothing to fight with but stone knives and bearskins.. and, unlike McCain.. he holds our military service men and women in the highest regard.

Education… Obama is the only candidate that I have heard who supports a broad education for our children and who recognizes the important role that teachers and parents play in our children’s future. He wants to level the playing field and put more emphasis on overall education rather than teaching to the tests… He states that we, as parents, are also responsible for the education of our children…. Unfortunately, we have a generation of Bush/Clinton years that are now raising our kids…. and the College/University kids now see that there was a lot wrong with that.. so, I guess we didn’t do too badly, but we let a lot of people down….

Foreign Policy… I find it absurd that Obama is chided by McCain about visiting Iraq.. and that he has not spoken to General P face to face… even though he is running for President, as a junior senator, it is not his place to jump the Chain of Command and go talk to the Commander in Iraq face to face… the military is not to be used as a political tool… the military serves and protects the constitution of the USA and they are under the POTUS…. for Obama to talk to General P directly would undermine good order and discipline. In regards to talking to our “enemies” without preconditions… I find it absurd that it has been spun into inviting someone to tea… Let me make it clear what I think preconditions means… A precondition is something that must be achieved before you even consider talking to somebody. I.E. My neighbor has a dog that howls all night.. and until he kills or gets rid of that dog, I am not gonna talk to him about his dog that howls all night… Precondition is different than condition…. I.E I have a problem with your dog because it howls all night.. can we talk about it? Does it need better dog food? More attention? Let’s see what we can do in order for me to sleep at night.

I digress, and I am sorry… I feel very strongly about Barack Obama..like many of you, this is the first time that I have been energized by a candidate since I was 18 years old and campaigning for George McGovern… I am a half Japanese/Caucasian and I am a 52 year old woman..Barack Obama has brought me back to that time I was 18…. He is a once in a lifetime candidate who deserves all of our support as he unites our fractured nation…. Thanks for listening to my rants.. I will step off my soapbox now…

TNKincaid - I appreciated your comment. I don't think I have seen any of your comments before - are you new?

I have wondered about how some blacks felt about Obama's behaviour and the results of same. There doesn't seem to be the same kind of energy to his campaign I remember from the freedom riders - then there was a kind of quiet determination. Maybe it was simply Martin Luther King and his dignity. I was just a lower middle class white girl in the mid-west and had never seen anything like it, and was awe-struck seeing
young people getting on buses, with their jaws squared and sitting still, ready to go. Those people wanted to be treated like actual Americans, they wanted their rights as Americans, and I was stunned that anyone disagreed with them. But Obama has changed that, not my opinion but the situation. I hate seeing what I'm seeing,and the hysteria, and the kind of hateful an insulting words that are on this blog. It gets pretty low and ugly here. The media calls me a racist because I support a white candidate.

It was infuriating to see civilly disobedient demonstrators be picked up from a street and arrested and going to jail, but lord, it was magnificent to see them say nothing and not resist - they made the cops who picked them up look like fools. That's the technique that won the civil rights act and actually changed the whole world, because the whole worldsaw and admired.

Dr King was the greatest leader of men and women since Jesus Christ, and I think he would be woebegone to see that some respected, long-time
black congressional women might be dropped by this political party because they dared to support a white woman candidate.

I'm sure I have offended the Obama supporters here, but I sure do hope I haven't inadvertently said anything to offend you, TNKincaid. I rmember those blacks girls in Little Rock and think you deserve all the respect in the world, and I'm sorry you don't feel you are getting it. You are from me.

As for whoever suggested we should vote for David Axelrod - do you REALLY want to get Chicago machine politics to run the country? You might think they already do, but trust me, they don't yet.

Since He quit his church, maybe he'll become a Muslim.

But he probably has a problem with Osama Bin Laden. The Christian Science Monitor lays it out.

Stafford, Va. - Osama bin Laden must be chuckling in his safe house. After all, the 2008 campaign could very well give Al Qaeda the ultimate propaganda tool: President Barack Hussein Obama, Muslim apostate.

The fact that Senator Obama – the son of a Muslim father – insists he was never a Muslim before becoming Christian is irrelevant to bin Laden. In bin Laden's eyes, Obama is a murtad fitri, the worst type of apostate, because he was blessed by Allah to be born into the true faith of Islam.

Click on Link for the article

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0519/p09s02-coop.html

"Show me" - I suggest you read Hillary's book "It Takes a Village" and her autobiography "Living History".

Those of us who have been offended by the "walk on water" presentation the MSM has given us of Barack Obama, are having a hard time with the sexism and hatred that has been directed at Hillary. I was impressed with Barack at the 2004 Democratic National Committee. I do not hate the guy, but he is not my candidate. I am back and forth on whether I can even envision voting for him.

I have never felt this level of uncertainty before and I started to vote in 1980 starting with Jimmy Carter (still pissed Reagan won) and up to and including 2004 when I woke up early in Denmark (on vacation) to watch CNN to see how the votes were falling for Kerry.

In closure I will say that I am not closing the door on voting for the nominee. if Hillary is the VP candidate, the decision is made for me. If not, I will wait, listen, read and learn.

Best,

Tom

"I suggest you read Hillary's book "It Takes a Village" and her autobiography "Living History".

Tom,
I have read both of those books... I suggest you read "Dreams from My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope".... I guess since I am bi-racial, I identify with this man and his struggles to figure out where he belongs and who he is. I am enthused when I hear his vision for America.. no other candidate, including the one you support, has offered a future that resembles the past vision that our founding fathers thought when they formed our more perfect union....

and Bowmanc.... the Muslim thing died awhile ago... as they say in Texas.. That dog don't hunt.... try another tactic....

Todd Putnam has written a new, critical analysis of Bill Clinton's nearly 8 years out of office.

It is entitled "The Comeback Id"

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/07/clinton200807

Comments?

The Democratic Party most definitely have thrown Hillary (along with Bill) over board Craig, but in doing so, threw a lot of other people off the boat too.

Some of us are loyal to the people who have done the most for this party in recent years and that's Bill Clinton and his administration. (And please, everyone, I not in the mood to hear about Monica.)

Howard Dean and "his new coalition" have taken "their vision" of the party in a new direction, and I'm not going there with them. I don't recognize a Democratc party that "doesn't need" the "little guy", because if this country isn't about the "working class, whoever he or she may be, then what is it about?

Power and Agenda and Control. That's what this party is trying to become. Some votes have become more important than other votes, so since when is non equality called Democracy"?

I was born into a country that taught me, since I can remember, that we were all created equal. I guess it t was naive of me to believe that because this year has proven me wrong. So if they don't think that's obvious to anyone watching, then they don't understand half of America.

I don't even blame Obama, anymore, because I've come to seeing him as a pawn. He's just their chosen "front man". And I fear he owes way too many people to ever become a President to the people.

I am not going to fall in line, regardless of the outcome of this election. And I won't ever be fooled again.

Ms. Independent

"in person she is both frighteningly intelligent, genuinely very warm, and quite witty."

Too bad she blew it then with those major character defects - inability to handle reality, lying, Rove tactics, staying with that rat of a husband. If she'd dumped him after the Monica mess and struck out on her own, she'd have been way more impressive.

Too bad she blew it then with those major character defects - Janice

"Major character defects'?

You can talk like that, and then say "she" has major character defects?

Look at how you stand in judgment.

Five things to watch in Puerto Rico

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/10733.html

Sunday secrets...

http://www.postsecretcommunity.com/

2008 Democratic Popular Vote
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Hillary's Popular Vote Lead
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/5/31/235239/925

Stretch, yawn ... Good Morning folks - Somebody kick Sheila out of bed, I need fresh baked blueberry muffins, coffee, and fresh squeezed OJ

Denni and other newbies. If you put links in your posts, don't put in more than two at a time. It gets the message bounced for review as a spam defense. If you have more than two, use multiple messages.

re: janice 7:43 character defect post.
keeping one's vows is a major character VIRTUE not defect, at least it used to be in the olden days and some cultures and religions even now think that.

re: trinity tempest.
anyone have an idea what impact pfleger's & wright's pulpit politicking will have on trinity's tax status?

patd

Pfleger was a "visiting" minister, so probably none or nothing more than a hand slap. For Wright or anyone else in the employ of the church, it would be a question of openly endorsing a particular candidate directly from the pulpit.

Churches have always slid around this one by doing things such as distributing ballot cards at community events as recommending those candidates that "support our beliefs" or by "endorsing" as private citizens - again separate from the inside of the church itself.

The IRS steps very lightly around the freedom of religion clause.

Russert>>>>17 millions have voted for hillary, largest primary vote in history.....

Daschle>>>>It's time to put that behind us.......

lol

TY jamie,
i am a greatful fan of your ability to respond with such clarity and civility, so like our gracious host.

Puerto Rico Poll: Clinton 51%, Obama 38%
El Vocero (Spanish Language-translated) ^ | 5/28/08

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2022416/posts

Sturgeone,

Yep .... all you totally unnecessary folks just get in the line at the back, we need to take the group photo.

TY jamie,
i am a greatful fan of your ability to respond with such clarity and civility, so like our gracious host. Posted by: patd

I'm grateful too.

Me three.

"Google" is now in our lexicon. There were other search engines before it, but "to google" became a verb because the company that created that engine is very, very good at what it does.

Likewise "clintonesque" and "clintonism" have entered the vernacular. Senator Clinton and former president Clinton are both very, very good at what they do, namely, over-the-top prevarication. Spin has existed since voting was invented, but the Clintons made it their own.

Australia is out of Iraq. Which of the "coalition of the willing" nations are left ... anybody?

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20080601/Iraq.Australia/

Spin spin spin

Getting a little dizzy there are you

Jamie,

"...won't stop spinnin' 'till I hit the ground..."

Thin Lizzy

The Sunday morning piece on RFK is really good. At least there is the reminder that he wasn't a liberal in the sense that today's younger crowd thinks of as "liberal".

spins 10:05 post using "very, very good at what they do, namely, over-the-top prevarication" as the test IMHO also qualifies the following: obamatons, obamaniacs.
sorry for the dig and just when we were trying to unify here.

patd

I'm really trying to ignore the "kick 'em while their down" mentality, but they may just be reflecting their candidate's way of doing things.

email to the South Carolina Democratic Party:

Mr Werner,

Please route this email to the appropriate individual.

Effective immediately, please terminate any affiliation I have with the SCDP to include the Yellow Dogs. I realize I committed to making contributions for a year. I will honor that commitment, but send me no more emails or mailings, beyond acknowledging that my requested actions have been accomplished.

The basis of my withdrawal is the pathetic triumph of self-interest over expressed commitment that was exhibited at yesterday's Rules Committee meeting. I simply cannot continue supporting an organization where the personal loyalty of those in leadership positions means so little.

Thank you,

Being a former Clinton supporter, I am disgusted at the way Senator Clinton, her campaign, and her "diehard" supporters have acted throughout this campaign and especially yesterday. It is painfully obvious she is in it for herself and that many of her closest suporters are there for personal gain as well. I am a democrat and will never vote republican, but sadly, after watching the events of this primary and the Clinton campaign and supporters at the RBC hearing yesterday, I will never support Clinton or her closest supporters with money or my vote again.

Howard Dean is the Dem's Katherine Harris.

Gordo

I don't think he looks like that in a sweater.

Katie and "the twins" have a long history around here.

Being a former Clinton supporter, I am disgusted......
I will never support Clinton or her closest supporters with money or my vote again. Posted by: NS

I personally don't believe you were ever a Clinton supporter.

Flatus,

I was inspired by your letter and respect you even more because of what you stand for. Thanks for sharing it.

Chloe, you've got that right. There's a lot of trolling going on trying to separate elements of the party. It's probably part of the repug divide-and-conquer effort.

Maybe Howard Dean should be called Howard Harris.

Dear Mr. Crawford,
We love your commentary especially on Imus... How do we make the point that we are sick of "Billary". If Obama, as we hope becomes the nominee and puts Hillary on his ticket, we will vote for McCain. We are sick sick sick of all of this rule changing etc. The McCain camp must be thrilled with all of this infighting and indecisiveness.
Sincerely,
S.

Flatus

Just as a matter of pure curiosity, I would love to know how many "take me off the list" posts the DNC has received. It would be impossible to get all the figures for all the state/county/precincts, but I imagine the DNC figures are known if we could find someone on the inside to tell us.

No Road Map for Democrats as Race Ends

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/us/politics/01dems.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

It's okay we are sick of people who refer to President and Senator Clinton as Billary and all other terms stolen from the right wing freak show

Flatus
Wonderful letter!!! I have wondered myself just how many peaple have asked to be taken off there mailing lists? Maybe some party official if asked by a journalist could get the stats???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ2pQ0YF_ak

in charge....

Jamie, thanks for the insight!

Flatus, McCain hasn't asked for any of the things you've stated, so far. Why would he start if he was unfortunately elected as POTUS? He's been a cheerleader for this mismanaged war, claiming victory in places where it's clear there's been no victory and talking about walking safely through Iraq when it was clear he was in body armor with a protective detail.

Chloe,

Loved this paragraph in the NY Times article

"In many ways, Mr. Obama is wheezing across the finish line after making a strong start: He has won only 6 of the 13 Democratic contests held since March 4, drawing 6.1 million votes, compared with 6.6 million for Mrs. Clinton."

Its all over for Clinton in Democratic Party . She should now look at options to fight as Independent .

NEW THREAD

Denni
I use no one as an excuse not to support Sen.Obama but it would be a lie to say that his supporters and the way in which some have conducted themselves didn't have an effect on my thinking.I take full responcability for my vote or in this case lack of one.

This is from a friend who was actually inside the RBC meeting room yesterday afternoon.
_________________________________________

I know that today's ruling on FL and MI was extremely disappointing. I was actually inside for the second half after a very lucky moment in which four DNC officials actually gave us their seats if we promised to "yell and boo" loudly for Hillary. They were very low key about the situation and basically let us know that we needed to keep this really quiet. Upon entering the meeting, it was clear why they wanted us in there. The crowd was overwhelmingly supportive of Obama. I made sure to follow through with my end of the deal: I was very vocal. It was an extremely emotional experience in terms of feeling very alienated from the party. There was a five second pan to Donna Brazile just at the right moment (which makes me think she was already being watched for making facial gestures and the camera people were Clinton or McCain supporters) in which she made the most offensive and bored looking expression while Ickies was talking. It elicited a ton of boos and other comments. She had no idea she was on camera during that moment and it was clear that the camera person showed her purposely to expose her. It was very shocking to me that she would sit up there and make that face. It was extremely telling.

Overall, the experience was surreal. It was very tense during the second half and I kept thinking of all the people I have talked to over the last six months who have reported feeling alienated, angry, frustrated and generally left out. I remembered all of you and how disappointed you have felt. I honesty felt obligated to make some noise in that setting. We have spent weeks writing letters, sending emails, making calls and generally, doing everything we can to get the media and DNC to take us seriously. We have been respectful and considerate the entire time. I was thinking that at that moment, the country was watching and that was some of the only media time we have actually received in the last several weeks. I felt like it was my duty to be vocal and forthright with my disgust for the situation, as otherwise, how will the rest of the country (who thinks it's only Clinton out there fighting because that's all the media shows) doesn't even realize we exist? Leslie, who was inside the meeting all day, and Diana, who was also in the meeting all day, appeared to share my sentiments. Despite the fact that we were outnumbered 4 to 1 inside that meeting, from what I understand, we sounded as though we were equally matched AND we made sure to make the DNC feel as uncomfortable. While I normally wouldn't advocate this, at the same time, when will our dissent be heard? I decided that today, a little civil disobedience was called for in order to let everyone know that we here, we're not happy and we're not going anywhere. I want you to know that we were thinking of all of you today and truly feeling as though we were representing you in that meeting. I noticed the blogs were full of Obama supporters wagging their fingers and making comments about the "rude" behavior of Clinton supporters. The massive numbers of responses speaks volumes. They were shocked to see her supporters so vocal in their opposition to Obama. That type of behavior has always belonged to Obama's supporters (on a much more unaccpetable level). I think it was a real eye opener for them. Regardless, I want you to know that today, we all had our chance to voice our outrage at the meeting. Each of you had a voice in that meeting and we made sure that it was heard. Don't give up, Hillary has the popular vote and truly, all I can say is this: Denver.

Denni,

Mr McCain has been a 'team player'. That said, he has also been a vocal critic of the mismanagement that characterized the Rumsfeldian adventure.

There are plenty of things where Mr McCain has failed to impress. Find those places and report on them accurately.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

one of Clinton's supporters yesterday at the Rules Committee Meeting.

¡yo soy Horsedooty!

Too bad she blew it then with those major character defects - inability to handle reality, lying, Rove tactics, staying with that rat of a husband. If she'd dumped him after the Monica mess and struck out on her own, she'd have been way more impressive.

Posted by: janice | June 1, 2008 7:43 AM

Janice, quite unnesary....You don't lend much to Unity. And that statement is just plain out of line and over the top! I'm an Obama supporter and I think you should rethink how you try and defend your candidate here.

These people have been sincere in their dedication to Senator Clinton.

People keep suggesting Hillary Clinton has "proven her metal" in this campaign. That is very generous interpretation. What she has really shown is that no lie is too great, in her mind, in her quest for power and achieving what she personally wants.

We've had 8 years of that kind of "leader" and we know what it has gotten us. Clinton has no future (hopefully) as a leader in this country, whether as Democrat, Independent, or Republican. This great nation needs great leaders, not soul-less sycophants.

Harold Ickes on cnn

God Damn America!

Look what Obama and now the Dem Party stands for.

America is bad! Whitey bad too!

What a bunch of fools the Dems are. I hope they have fun playing with all that Obama money (which for some reason is coming from Repubs), now, because it's going to dry up really quick.

There's alot to be learned about Obama. None of it good either. Monday promises to be an exciting day. Hang on to your seatbelts, Dems. The ride is going to get very bumpy from here on out.

Wolf sayd CNN is the only news organization that's providing exit polls today. Polls closing at 3 but they'll have them sooner.

Yall just yacking away and not saying a damn thing! Quit tryin' to convince each other of your self-righteousness. The other person doesn't care! Get it?

Some of you got the county fair Blue Ribbon around your neck, some of you got your whittle feelings hurt because the big boys took your ball and went home...Get A Life, folks! All of Ya!

Unilke you, TonyB, here's what affects my thinking: more than 4,000 American troops who've died, thousands more wounded, more than a million people who'll probably lose their homes this year, the younger women who have to worry about Roe v. Wade, the potential for conflict with Iran, health care, consumer protection, etc, etc, etc.

You're welcome to vote for McCain because Obama supporters make you made. I'm voting for the future of my country. NO to McCain, 'foreclosure Phil', his lobbyist/advisors with questionable ties to scary people, and the Republican party that's trashed the constitution all for the sake of supporting Bush and his needless war.

We just differ, that's all.

I'm curious. The Obama supporter was the person who LAST YEAR voted against full sanction. Ickes and the other Clinton supporters (probably thinking they were keeping votes from Obama just as they thought they'd frozen him out of the money game) voted FOR the full sanctions.

Why aren't the Clinton supporters being held accountable? They are NOW screaming disenfranchisement, where were they A YEAR AGO!?!?!

When is the Clinton team ever going to be responsible for the careless mess they've made of this process????

The Dems, lefties and liberals don' t understand this yet, but if, indeed, BHO is now the head of the Democrat Party, they all will rue that ascenscion.

Do they really think the Clintons and her supporters will not accept this?

Soon, if not already now, all the king's men and all the king's horses won't be able to put the politically correct, anchorless, rotten-to-its-core Democrat Party back together again.

But they'll have time for at least the next election cycle to try, while President McCain is in office.

Who knows, but maybe they'll have a few more presidential-election cycles to attempt to re-invent themselves from the fractious disaster they now have become?

All this couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

The word everyone is forgetting in all this is: S-a-n-c-t-i-o-n-e-d!

The Florida and Michigan Democratic Primaries were U-n-s-a-n-c-t-i-o-n-e-d by the Democratic Party. These Primaries Occured ... But the Results D-o N-o-t/D-i-d N-o-t have to be R-e-c-o-g-n-i-z-ed by the DNC.

All these Clinton Supporters on the Board said as much when T-h-e-y Voted to N-o-t Recognize These Primaries.

N-o-w, These Hypocrites, Did Not Even Want to H-o-n-o-r Their O-w-n Vote. By Right: Sentator Clinton N-o-r Senator Obama Could Have Received A-N-Y Delegates and the Board Would Have Been Fully Within Their Right.

I Contend That Some Here Do Not Truly Believe in Democracy. The F-i-r-s-t Sentence of the Constitution Reads: " We, The People of the United States in O-r-d-e-r to F-O-R-M a M-o-r-e P-e-r-f-e-c-t U-n-i-o-n ..."

That was the purpose of the Meeting Yesterday. To Recognize That the Party is Not Perfect. But the W-o-r-k of Forming a M-o-r-e P-e-r-f-e-c-t U-n-i-o-n Within the Party Has to Begin.

I Think the Decisions V-o-t-ed on and A-g-r-e-e-d to Were the B-e-s-t H-o-p-e for all Concerned in Working Toward the Realization (With-In the Democratic Party) of Having a M-o-r-e P-e-r-f-e-c-t Union.

Just My Opinion ...

This is what the Clintons get for being so devisive.Yes it is time for a change.

The Catholic Priest got it right even if it hurts Barck. Not because she was Bills spouse does not entitle her to being president. Her decision making and judgement stink.Had she been a good leader her campaign would have been better run a nd her ignorant supporters at the RCB convention just proves my point. Barck was able to have his supporters listen.

Clinton is just a tired old brand name.

Obama 08!

The Michigan formula recognized that about 30,000 voters wrote in their preference (overwhelmingly Obama) and that under Michigan law those votes are not counted. The Michigan state Democratic party explained that this was the justification for the adjustment.
This corresponded to the poll data available at the time indicating a 10 pt margin for Clinton. Whether this 2 delegate shift to Obama can be justified is not really the issue.
Sen, Clinton ran a campaign that would have won in the past, but did not adjust to the present conditions. Therefore, she lost. Sen. Obama ran a superior campaign and therefore won. Whether Sen. Clinton's supporters accept this, and work for Sen. Obama's victory in Novemeber, will determine te outcome of the election. In a democracy, you accept outcomes and if sufficiently energized work to reverse the result next time.

I watched some of the RBC live broadcast yesterday. What became apparent right away was that the DNC et.al. is not representative of the population of this country. On the committee were 50+% African Americans. AA's make up 12-15% of our country's population. The Democratic Party is misnamed. I hope that what comes out of this terrible campaign season is a viable third party headed up by Hillary Clinton. It's time for change, all right. Change to true representation. Tomorrow I'm headed to my county election bureau to change my registration to Independent from Democrat. In November I'll be voting for John McCain. He's the lesser of two evils.

Timefortruerepresentation - you are just as much of a liar as Hillary is so you want to vote for McCain...be my guest...we don't need evils like you who try to divide the democratic party...you can go and sleep with the Lobbyist!!

50%+ African American...please! Hillary math has and will always be wrong. Go away!

"...Barack Obama has displaced Hillary Rodham Clinton and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, as boss of the party."

So Craig, is your Kool-aid cherry, grape or orange today?

Tell me what Obama and his backers gain if Obama loses in a landslide during a year when the Democratic Party is all but guaranteed to win? What’s the point of controlling a Party that will become a laughingstock by November?

Four delegates. That's all he got by dragging his feet on Michigan. Yeah, that's some real smart politicking there--he handed her the issue of Denver, Craig. Too bad you don't see that.

Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead!!!!

NEW THREAD now on http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/

Does anyone even think about the term limit issue? Bill Clinton was term limited. How legitimate is it for his wife to run for president? How is this a feather in the cap of feminists? I don't get the furor! Women should hold out for a truly independent female who can earn the office on her own merits!!

1,2,3, Everybody: Obama/Clinton '08!!!!

This is like 1492 - "so-called everyone said the world was flat - columbus knew it was not. Later he was proven right and the so-called everyone was proven wrong" Wrong - do you understand.
Fact: Obama has offered nothing but silly speeches with little of import.
Fact: Hillary (no matter if you love or hate her) is the only one of the three that really knows how to get things done in the gov. She was also the only one that actually had any details and a plan to work with.

She is the best candidate - unfortunately, too many democrats have stars in their eyes and are too dense to see that yet. If they don't see it soon the dems will loose again.

Hillary - keep going - keep going.
M.H.

Will Obama still be the "new boss" after he loses the presidential election, or will he be toast?

Barack in Charge. Of what, the nastiest race in history? Barack is a puppet. A puppet surrounded by goons who tell him what to do and strong arms the one person who deserves the Presidency, Hillary Clinton. The DNC (Dean, Pelosi, Brazille) are complete sell outs and back stabbers. If Barack becomes the nominee by hook or by crook, America will answer by making McCain the next President of the United States. Barack would only create the Un-united States.

In case you missed it, Flatus... he quickly stopped criticizing the war effort when he started running. He admits that mistakes were made, but is far less that critical, now. I can more links that spell out the McCain shift in policy, if you're interested.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

Sunday, June 1, 2008
FOX NEWS says a TV network has the "Whitey" tape

In Breaking News, No Quarter reports that Roger Stone of Fox News says that a TV network HAS the tape on which Michelle Obama, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.)'s wife, rants against "Whitey."

The following appeared June 2, 2008, at 14:43:30. See Fox News transcript:

... this has little to do with the general election and a lot to do with why hillary clinton is staying in the race. look, there is already a buzz in washington at least seven news organizations have contacted me. wanting to know how to get their hands on this tape, giving me more information than i had after i had spoken to each one of them. i now believe the tape exists and i believe a network has it. if this pans to out to be true based on michele obama’s previous comment that this is the first time she had been proud of her country which i think shows an attitude it is problematic.

The bus is idling, waiting for you, Michelle.

Short memories! The Clinton's were party outsiders. Once in, they never played the games. That is why all the old school party insiders (Kennedy) were so glad to try to exact their retribution against that young upstart that took their Nomination in '92.

And now, the arrogant DNC is about to senselessly throw the weakest candidate into the General Election because of the egos!

You know what the Democratic Party is getting to be really good at???

LOSING!

OOPS!

Losing! AND backroom deals and closed door meetings. -Only yesterday.

Pure arrogance.

Hard to tell the Republican Right Wing from the Democratic Party Right Wing. What sickness... the No Quarter crowd has gone after Michelle for some time, now. How pathetic.

The procedure that the RBC adopted is this:
a. the primary in Michigan was seriously flawed
b. so serious was the flaw that the primary could not be used to reflect the will of the voters and so was rejected as a proper vehicle of expression of the voters will; viz only one candidate on ballot, only some voters casting votes, mail-in votes being rejected etc
c. the primary in Michigan was therefore declared null and void; soundly rejected as a valid primary
d. the mood of the RBC was however, that on reflection, the voters should have a delegation that should attend the convention on the basis that the debacle was not created by the voters
e. in arriving at a model to represent the will of the voters, both the persons who actually voted as well as those who wished to vote, but could not vote, had to be factored into the solution
f. a workable model had to be developed to provide that expression of the voters will - aka fair representation; as Harold Ikies said, fair representation is a bedrock philosophy of the Democratic Party.
g. in the absence of seating based on the rejected primary result, an alternative fair and rational model has to be used
h. enter the Michigan Democratic Party; the State party, over the last several weeks, had done extensive work with voter analysis, including all factions, to arrive at a compehensive proposal from an exthaustive process.
i. Michigan developed one workable solution; ably presented by the State Chairman and Senator Levine
j. while the Michigan State party solution was, initially, viewed as very radical, and in some minds, undemocratic, in reality it was as good as a solution as any
k. why ?; having declared the primary results as null and void (which also means that the votes cant be counted or credited to anty party) , then to be able to seat the delegates a fair formula had to be developed outside of the basis of the non-primary

I think the RBC arrived at a decision which reflected a fair representation and a wise compromise backed by rationality and logic. Remember this was to restore a 100% delegate penalty

The four delegate difference is neither here nor there in the big picture

we'll see whose crying when 17 million dems vote McCain in Nov,

Really sad. Poeple have mad this election about themselves and their hurt feelings. I don't know how to tell you this, but Americans are DYING in the field in Iraq. People are losing their homes, and there are millions without health coverage. How sickly and myopic to want to punish someone for WINNING an election.

Punish HUNDREDS of millions of citizens to stick it to ONE man. What madness. This is not a game.

No one is going to cry SCOTTD!

The 17 million dems will be voting for Obama because of things like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g. Of course, LESS YOU! Stop pretending like you are a dem when you are a supporter of Bush's Third Term. You can't fool us. Go away!

You see a dem with Brain will never vote for McCain or say what you say.

“You see a dem with Brain will never vote for McCain or say what you say.” - NoLove4Hillary

Democrats know a winner when they see one, and it ain’t Barack Obama. To vote Obama would only sanction all the sexism, reverse racism, fingergates, bittergates and the Wrights’, Ayers’, Rezkos’, Odingas’, Auchis’, Michelles’ of the world, and true Democrats could never allow that. Ain’t gonna happen, my friend.

We support Hillary all the way to the White House. Our reserve vote goes to a hero, Senator McCain. Obama is not worthy to stand in the shadows of either of these people.

DENVER!

EsmeraldaB - you see...most with Brains are tied of cheats. Your girl is the worst politician ever. She is a liar, divisive, polarizing, has too much negative to have a chance in the GE but at least I will tell you this dem has a brain to choose her over McCain if she was the nominee. Start thinking with your head rather than your balls or your estrogen!

Go vote for your hero who continues to be losing his bearing. I am sure you will enjoy the following heroic stories and vedio's about him. Watch out for that McCain's sniper fire! Oh...almost forgot this is a guy who had called his own wife a "cunt" --you just have to google it if you don't believe it. How about that? ain't he a colorful hero?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSlAJ5hkAC4&feature=related

That was a great link re the popular vote, Chloe. I was wondering what they would do with that little factor. The wrangling isn't over.

Chloe, Jamie, OD, Jason, and Flatus - I do enjoy your attitudes. Most of you I can't keep straight, so I'm tempted to say I enjoy Patsi also, but she gets SO much volume of nastiness that I'm not sure about. I've decided to consider the sources, tho, and say you're cool. I've left out names cuz I can't keep them straight bit if you go along with those already named, I salute you as well. You are havens of serenity in an increasingly polluted and toxic ocean.

Flatus, I've taken my name off their lists several times and just got two more letters. They're gettin' em back.

Hillary isn't hurting the party - it's self-destructive. She has every right to run and they are showing what they are made of - the same stuff the kgb is made of - ok, that's an gross exaggeration - but not a total lie.

I couldn't be more pleased to see Hillary failing. I've realized over the years that all politicians are evil and corrupt.

The Clintons' are the epitome of this. It's time to get over all the political hero B.S.

POLITICIANS DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU! Stop putting them on these pedestals!!! If people cared as much about God who lends them breath, they would be happier people.

This is the best video I've ever seen about Hillary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lstkiexhc

Take a moment to see it on youtube. It's not a song or anything silly....

I wish I could see a blog where thousands of people were bragging about God Almighty and how great he is....

Nice, my political party is now "run" by a Marxist radical with Anti-American friends? Oh, where did it go wrong. I may be liberal, but not a radical who loves anti-american rants and partial birth abortion as Obama, the new Dem "boss" does. No Obama for me please. http://www.hellnobama.com

Yay, my political party is now run by Americans who know a fellow American with outstanding credentials from a Washington insider. Oh, my how how the millions of newly registered voters got it right. I may be a yellow--dog democrat but election 2008 is about loving America with a new bi-partisan voice and while upholding the health choices of ALL Americans. The democratic party bosses are finally done away with. Obama shares the congratulations. And away with Republican oligarchists in November!!!!!

Well, my political party is me - c'est moi. The democratic party bosses are still in control in my view, and the party will have to be wrested from their dead fingers in about twenty or thirty years, by which time I will have been long long gone. Enjoy your brief moments, all those who think there's a new day in the party. You are doing and thinking exactly what the bosses want you to think. This is one election disappointment I won't have to face. You have my sympathy (but I'll bet you want to throw it back in my face, huh? How did I know?)