Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

re post from last thread:

Sister Rebellious Renee,

"Dooty..... it's great to see you here again! I've really missed you...."

thanks I had to let the air clear out a little. For a while it smelled a lot like an out house here.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

And he did a great job in the other part of his speech, calling for an unprecedented national dialogue on race.

I do not believe it is unprecedented. I think President Clinton began a national dialogue on race.

Hi Craig. I disagree. I think Obama saw his pastor's comments in a broader context, and spoke to all types of division among Americans, who can still work to make this union greater.

He also had an interesting subtext about the contemporary America growing past the lessons of Rev. Wright's upbringing.

I thought it was all of a part.

[repost]

OD:

"Audiences are deceived by the techniques, but familiarity will result in contempt."

Yeah - but it took more than 10 years for this to happen with the Clintons - so Obama has at least one good term in him!!

But I do agree with this.

"many voters would rather talk about something else."
Both in the Clinton era and now.

Dooty,

Did you see this on previous thread?

"Horsedooty,

Where did that come from? It was a joke about all parents playing all children in a card game that involves reacting very rapidly to input and moving to slap before anyone else can get there.

It had absolutely nothing to do with race."

Craig's last line: But if he is saying that a healing conversation about race requires better understanding of his crazy preacher, many voters would rather talk about something else.

No, but he was saying that it's a complicated, multifaceted issue. Which does not come down to soundbites on Fox News.

Maybe "many" voters would rather talk about something else. But that is how problems fester and fester.

I think it's an interesting speech, and maybe will get some play in pulpits this Sunday, when Christians gather to celebrate renewal.

"But if he is saying that a healing conversation about race requires better understanding of his crazy preacher, many voters would rather talk about something else."

Than it will not be the entire conversation that needs to be had.

No one is saying people have to agree with the crazy shit that comes out of Wright's mouth (as well as others - including some crazy white people). Or even that you need to support his right to say it (but now we are getting into a dicey issue). And no one is questioning the fact that such statements should be condemned - because they only make the problem worse.

All Obama is saying is that people on both sides of the debate - need to at least have a bit of understanding from where the other side is coming from. And that goes both ways people.

Back to work peeps. Talk to ya lata...

yeah I saw it. I been looking for the context of which you refer but I can not find it. If you would kindly point out where I missed the rest of the statement I would be very happy to read it.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

do not believe it is unprecedented. I think President Clinton began a national dialogue on race.

Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker

President Clinton began a national dialog on sex :)

thanks I had to let the air clear out a little. For a while it smelled a lot like an out house here.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

Posted by: Horsedooty! | March 18, 2008 1:05 PM

Sorry but it still does.

It looks as if both Michigan and Florida are dead except for making some sort of case to the Credentials committee. The Obama crowd wouldn't cooperate with any of many suggestions, so they have probably doomed any chance of a Clinton nomination.

Craig said, the one who wants it most wins. So slash and burn, lie through your teeth, cut them off at the knees, and throw mud and slander from the oh so transcendant politician seems to be working.

hear-hear, Nancy

But I thought you said your candidate was not likely to be nominated? So her tactics are working?

Greetings from NYC!

Craig....
I do not think Obama's preacher is crazy.....
I think his portrayal of 9/11 happening because of blowback from this country's policies is spot on.....

I think the right wing noise machine is crazy...... they are the ones formating hate....

I'm not thrilled with what Rev. Wright said about Hillary..... although I do understand it.....

I still think that Clinton would be a better candidate for the presidency...... but Obama did a superb job today in making this Clinton supporter feel a little better about him if he's the Democratic nominee....

GO DEMOCRATS!

""Do not teach it to your children. They have faster reflexes and you will get injured. :-)"

It couldn't be much clearer than "your children".

President Clinton began a national dialog on sex :)

Posted by: Nancy | March 18, 2008 1:15 PM

As opposed to the endless discussion of JFK's sex life'
and even someone special liked Ike.

No, but he was saying that it's a complicated, multifaceted issue. Which does not come down to soundbites on Fox News.

Maybe "many" voters would rather talk about something else. But that is how problems fester and fester.

Posted by: dog hussein dog | March 18, 2008 1:10 PM

Sorry, but since when have the average voter been competent in handling complicated, multifaceted issues?

Reverend Wright has said some things that I agree with... Saying "GODDAMN AMERICA" is not one of them. His assault on Hillary was particularly egregious. Now I step out of the chat. Chat bully's back.

Nancy: I am a big fan of President Bill Clinton. He was a good president, and left office with a high approval rating despite his personal failings.

But I do remember being told the beginning of a sex joke by a 4th grader. (Had to stop the little guy before the punch line, but did not appreciate our president for making himself the butt of it.)

Until the Spitzer maelstrom, I always wondered why WJC did not just admit, well, yes, I strayed with that woman and deeply regret it. Because, unlike Spitzer, he had a reputation as a hound dog. I think he would have survived the fuss.

"So her tactics are working?"

No, but Senator Obama's certainly are. Block the votes of two million plus people because if would advantage Sen. Clinton.

"So her tactics are working?"

No, but Senator Obama's certainly are. Block the votes of two million plus people because if would advantage Sen. Clinton.

Posted by: Jamie | March 18, 2008 1:28 PM

Jamie, before I log off... what do you think will be the result of this Michigan/Florida debacle ? Do you think people will still vote enthusiastically ? Do you think it will have a big difference? no difference? small difference?

And is Obama truly electable?

Tom

EuroTom: sometimes the average voter pays more attention than you think; sometimes not.

You clearly "get it", that Wright says some sensible things in addition to the crap.

We live in very unsettling times, with great economic uncertainty, and I suspect the voters will pay more attention this year, rather than phoning it in.

Personally I am more concerned about Obama as a Christian. I believe religion has no role in government.

What actions did Barack Obama take to express his disagreement with the offensive,disgusting statements made from the pulpit of his church for many years?

Now that Obama admits he was in the pew when offensive comments were made, what action did he take when these events occurred.

A press conference taking all questions is in order. He will either deal with them or he won't.

His answers will determine whether his speech today was sincere or whether it is a finely crafted rendition of the Checkers speech.

"I believe religion has no role in government."

Now that we can agree on..

EuroTom: sometimes the average voter pays more attention than you think; sometimes not.

You clearly "get it", that Wright says some sensible things in addition to the crap.

We live in very unsettling times, with great economic uncertainty, and I suspect the voters will pay more attention this year, rather than phoning it in.

Posted by: dog hussein dog | March 18, 2008 1:30 PM

I really hope you are right. We should be questioning foreign policy decisions that were done in our name. We should question the power of lobbyists, the multinationals, and the super-rich running our country. We have to confront the issue of race, though I will say that it's usually couched as non-whites are correct and whites are salivating racists... and I think that's unfair. But even when there are big disagreements, if we are dialoging we are at least reaching out...

Tom

Jamie: you see it that way because you are a Clinton supporter. KGC has also been venting about "disenfranchising the voters."

But that was a spectacularly mishandled set of primaries, and in neither case was it a fair showing.

I saw a lot of interviews with Florida voters who were worried the revote would open their state up to more criticism, since it and Katherine Harris and Theresa Lepore saddled us with the Great American presently in office.

EuroTom: I think the voters will vote in November based on who they'd prefer for president. It's too big an election to stay home. But I hope a lot of them yell at the powers that landed them in "my vote's in limbo" situation. Perhaps this particular debacle will not soon be repeated.

I wish we'd see rotating regional primaries in the future. And enough of Iowa. Why can't Missouri or another neighbor go first?

I normally don't agree with Debra Saunders but this is a pretty good column on the issue and why it has come up.

She suggests all sides take a step back.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/03/18/ED47VLAPA.DTL&type=printable

Jamie said, "Do not teach it to your children. They have faster reflexes and you will get injured. :-)"

It couldn't be much clearer than "your children"."

Whose children does the word "They" mean? Does that mean they are different? Of color? That is how it reads from my point of view.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

"But that was a spectacularly mishandled set of primaries, and in neither case was it a fair showing'

And that is your view based on being an Obama supporter. For someone so concerned about tone
you should park your snarkmobile at the door.

EuroTom:

"Sorry, but since when have the average voter been competent in handling complicated, multifaceted issues?"

Since someone took the time to explain it to them.

The difficulty of monogamy. NYTimes top emailed item today:

In Most Species, Faithfulness is a Fantasy.

Science Times was quick on tying this to the Spitzer imbroglio. Who knew it would be appearing on same day new Gov. Paterson and his wife are providing TMI about their marriage?

Somewhere, Bill Clinton is laughing ruefully.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/science/18angi.html?ei=5087&em=&en=e6fb96f076c0bce0&ex=1205985600&pagewanted=all

Now that Obama admits he was in the pew when offensive comments were made, what action did he take when these events occurred.

Posted by: Oregon Democrat | March 18, 2008 1:31 PM

I think he didn't find them offensive. If I were a member of that church and the MSM never addressed things like our foreign policy, I would feel "right on"... in fact, in many ways I do feel "right on"... Remember all the mystification after 9/11? Americans were asking, absolutely dumbfounded, "why do they HATE us?" Most of us know the answers to this. And it's complicated and rooted long in our history.

And it's rooted also in the way corporate media creates, manipulates and controls the message.

Didn't see the speech, might later on. It is pretty clear from the comments here that it isn't changing anybody's minds, supporters support, detractors detract. Undecideds probably will probably hear more about the cause of the speech than the speech itself. Net effect still bad for Obama.

"It couldn't be much clearer than "your children"."

Whose children does the word "They" mean? Does that mean they are different? Of color? That is how it reads from my point of view.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty"

LOL
Dooty,
you screwed up and jumped to a false conclusion.
Quit embarrassing yourself.

Apologize and move on.

It is what an adult does in these situations.

Jack

Do you think people's attitudes have changed that much?

Poor Patty Murray, all she did was suggest we should try to understand Bin Laden and was practically ridden out of town.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-11816.html

KGC:

"Personally I am more concerned about Obama as a Christian. I believe religion has no role in government."

Keep saying this. It will help Obama with evangelicals against McCain.

Oh my, Horsedooty! Take a nap! Get some rest please.

please don't tell me what conclusion to jump to Whsky Jack after all jumping to conclusions is most of the exercise I get.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

My suspicion is that Obama holds views that are inconsistent with his campaign pronouncements.

I will be very surprised if he is the nominee for President.

I wonder what the reaction would have been if equally offensive comments had been made from the pulpit of a church where Hillary had been a member for many years.

Horse simple grammar answers your question. "They" are the children refered to in the previous sentence. It would have to read "They have faster reflexes and YOUR CHILDRED will get injured.

dog, I do not thnk Obama's speech will get much airtime in many churches Sunday. I believe there is an event that Christians believe occured a couple thousand years ago that may serve to supplant consideration of things political;.

KC, I may be naive about these things, but I believe tht Nancy's comment about Bill is what they call "snarky."

OD, I like you, and hope you're not holding your breath for that press conference.

"please don't tell me what conclusion to jump to Whsky Jack after all jumping to conclusions is most of the exercise I get.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty"

Your choice, Your reputation

Jack

Warren said: "All Obama is saying is that people on both sides of the debate - need to at least have a bit of understanding from where the other side is coming from. And that goes both ways people."

I don't see it as being a two sided issue.

There are so many other issues of great importance:

--Native Americans
--Antisemitism
--The plethora of womens' and girls' issues
--Poverty in general
--Sexual orientation
--Obligations to veterans
--Immigration
--Retraining of workers
--Reproductive rights
--Appalling rates of incarceration
--Obligation of affluent people of _all_ races in furthering social progress
--Who has the right/obligation of defining what is socially correct
--Assimilation/non assimilation of other minorties
--Healthcare

Those are just some of the social problems we need address.

Obviously it is not a two sided problem--if we think of it as a black-white problem, we will never solve a single thing.

And, you'll notice I haven't talked about mundane things such as trade, energy, national defense, etc.

"Poor Patty Murray, all she did was suggest we should try to understand Bin Laden and was practically ridden out of town."

We're a tough crowd up here KC.:)

I'm still upset with her about supporting HRC. She better cut that shit out!

Spelling correction YOUR CHILDREN

OD:

I am sure the rhetoric is not so firey in a Church filled with rich white people. What the hell would they have to be so damn upset over?

And we would have to go back a long way to find her in a Church filled with poor people (at least a visit that was not a political photo op) - since the Clintons have been rich and powerful for soooo long.

(ok - really back to work - I have pissed off enough people for now)

Joe Wilson is speaking with Hillary Clinton in PA right now -- re bringing the troops home from Iraq.

"I wonder what the reaction would have been if equally offensive comments had been made from the pulpit of a church where Hillary had been a member for many years"

We sure as hell wouldn't be talking about it now.
It would have come out sometime around the first of January, I imagin.

Jack

Flatus:

I completely agree.

I think all parties to a debate need to be understood.

(but of course every once and awhile it pays to have some "break out" groups)

"since the Clintons have been rich and powerful for soooo long."

*snort*
They didn't teach much history in your school either.

Jack

Boy, if that is what was really said in that statement then I do apologize. I maintain it was very ambiguous and at least for me very poorly stated.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty

My, some from the Church of Obama are getting pretty angry.

Fellow Democrats..Unite and support Hillary Clinton, the next President of the United States.

Jack

Keep of with the news. Senator Clinton has already been critized for a) her association with Rev Billy Graham (for his antisemtic remarks) and b) for being a member of the Methodist church which recognized gay marriage.

Dooty,

"They" being your children since "YOU" are the one getting injured by them.

I'm sorry I didn't phrase that better. If I had thought for a second anyone would read it the way you did, I definitely would have made it clearer in some fashion.

Here's what I know: the first divisive shit thrown in this campaign came from Obama and it was directed against older Americans. The VERY next thing I heard was when a reporter on NPR said an Obama staffer had tried to get Bill Clinton's sex life post-White House investigated.

So as far as I'm concerned, all this "Clintonian tactics"
talk is -- well, a fairy tale......

I've heard some fairly provocative Episcopalian sermons, but the language is never that controversial, more thought provoking to inspire better behavior & forgiveness. If you stick with the Book of Common Prayer you can't go wrong. But we do have our contraversy, our Bishop is gay and that has caosed some issues with some of the more conservative groups in the church worldwide.

I think that I need a new keyboard. The keys are in the wrong place so my words look mis-spelled.

ET,

I think that unless the MI and FL situation is resolved in some way, it will create a lot of bitterness. Whether or not this will keep them from voting there is no way of knowing until we at least get to the convention. Those people voted in the majority for Sen Clinton. If they feel she was cheated out of that support, you could have a blacklash against Sen. Obama since he seems pretty assured (barring total unknowns) of getting the nomination.

Is he electable? Of course he is. I doubt I will be one of the votes, but people are pretty fed up with Republicans. McCain is old and tied to both Bush and the war. If the issue is the economy more than the war, then McCain will lose unless there is a major backlash from the Clinton supporters.

Who is Nancy?

KGC
And as I remember both of them were first made some time ago. Kinda proves my point.
This is the first strike of the Republican racial attacks.

Jack

Warren

"I am sure the rhetoric is not so firey in a Church filled with rich white people. What the hell would they have to be so damn upset over?"

That is truly unfair. First she is a Methodist. You don't get much more middle class than Methodist. Second, her early church leader took her to areas of poverty to work. Third she has done a lot of work with Marian Wright Edelman, so I'm sure that involved being in black churches for reasons other than the political.

Be opposed to Clinton if you must, but don't minimize her as some noblesse oblige rich woman dropping in on the lower classes.

I'm off to go talk to "Dr. Hartley". Today is the first time. I hope his couch is comfy.

Who is Nancy?

Someones sock puppet, I've got a couple of guesses but no proof.

Jack

Judgement is one of the issues. BO has shown poor judgement on at least 4 items. Afghanistan - he held not a single meeting. Rezko, Wright, Ayers..

Does Bo not realize that the actions that you take in your personal life reflect the outcome of your whole life.

Craig, you have your board and your opinions. I also have my opinions.

Well, the troll is back (as one “individual” called me). Actually, I’ve given up posting on most sites [most definitely this one] because they are too inciteful, not insightful. Notice the part of insightful that really means something: SIGHT! The real trolls on here are you who can’t look beyond a period in history you THOUGHT was great because of two people who knew how to work the system. These same two people still want to work the system (with their wink, wink, nod, nods), but this time it is to make history for themselves. They do not give a damn about this country. It is all about THEM. They dig and dig and they have their Penn’s and their other sleazes out there digging so they can MAKE HISTORY. Those two will scratch, dig and do anything to concur even at the expense of the Democratic Party; Republicans will win when that happens. And, if you were born yesterday, THEY want to run against HRC.

As for Obama’s speech…it is probably the best speech to come along since Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream”. He spoke of how this country is still divided. Only he, not either of the Clintons, could have given this speech. Did Obama diss his pastor? No, but then he said he did not agree with everything his pastor always says.

Possibly some of you do not attend church. For those who do attend, how many times has your pastor said something that does not coincide with your beliefs? As a liberal I have almost gotten up and walked out from my hometown church, but then I have to remember how they think and the warp in which they live. If you have ever come from the fundamentalist areas of the country, you will know about what I am saying. Why do you stay in your church? Well, I would think it is the same as Obama…you have seen more good in your pastor and your congregation than evil.

Don’t tell me all individuals in their congregations believe everything their pastor says. If you do, you have a rare congregation, are probably not listening or just think being in church “makes you good”. One thing about most of you here…you definitely don’t need to agree to disagree when you are all saying the same thing?

Warren, you rock brother. I give it to you to keep trying. Your task is difficult with this closed-minded group. The press seems to be picking up the comments from these blogs and how divided this country actually is. The Clintons, et al, have most certainly propagated that division, to the delight of McCain. This is where Barack Obama can make a difference in this country, something the Clintons will never, ever, ever in their lifetime be able to do.

BTW, many of your blog names say much about you as people, especially those with the Hussein included. You like to include that as defamatory, but perhaps you don’t know that one of our best allies was King Hussein of Jordan who “successfully balanced the pressures of Arab nationalism and the allure of Western-style development against the stark reality of Jordan's geographic location”. Even Reagan said “King Hussein has led Jordan with strength and wisdom”.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_v84/ai_3200102

KGC, your comment is like saying Obama is too black and then he is not black enough. Now you are saying, after many tried to say he is a Muslim, that he is too Christian. God Almighty.

Patsi

Nancy has posted over the last few days could be longer.

And I think a few others are new besides Heather.
Mary Kitt Neal is another at least new to me.

Welcome to you all.

Whsky Jack said, "Your choice, Your reputation

Jack"

What reputation is that Jack? I am already thought of as a "Chat Bully" by one of the European members of this blog.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

I was expecting a CWA speech from Obama this noon, but instead I got a great speech.
Not only did Obama hit a home run, touching all the bases, he hit a grand slam, lumping the controversy of Wright with the bitterness of an old Marine pre-baby boomer preacher, suffering still with social injustices of decades past.
I agree with Craig to a degree, there was enough here to cover two major speeches, but I also believe Obama interwove both topics seamlessly. I was impressed...totally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Imus wasn't "getting" Craig Crawford 's video TrailMix.
Also, Craig asked Karrith Foster "...would you date him"? (Craig).
"NO!" she shouted.
Then Bernard McGuirk blurted out "He has dated Helen Thomas!", trying to be funny, I guess. Of course, TrailMixers all know Helen and Craig are great friends.
A great appearance, Craig, but man, isn't Imus a whore?
Just because some single-cup coffee maker is sponsoring the show, now, did he have to diss the Tassimo like that?

Karolenna

The ones with "Hussein" in their names are the supporters of Sen. Obama. They started that when it was a fashion after all those rabid right wing emails and preacher comments.

.

killfile

Posted by: Karolenna | March 18, 2008 2:11 PM

CYA, 'Scuse moi...

Jamie

The Reverend Emanuel Clever, my congress critter, is a Methodist minister.
Here are some of his sermons
http://www.stjamesumc.com/podcast/

lol , He is not your stereotypical black preacher, there is a reason he went into politics.

Jack

gee, sorry again, I meant Imus asked Karrith , of course

I haven't seen the speech yet, I was on the road, but based on what dex and others have said I'm greatly looking forward to it.

Doots: " I maintain it was very ambiguous and at least for me very poorly stated."

Jamie: "I'm sorry I didn't phrase that better. If I had thought for a second anyone would read it the way you did, I definitely would have made it clearer"

Well, this is what we've come to. No matter what is said now, somebody screams "racist code"!!!! (Yeah, Doots, I'm talkin' to you.....and about a million others....)

The comment about the game of "slap" was perfectly clear. But Doots read it and instead of "they" you saw "those people" and reacted.

Gone are the good old days when my son and one of his (black) teammates on the Hillsboro football team started floating the rumor that blacks ran track better because they had an extra bone in their feet. They laughed their butts off because so many believed it. Some folks now would probably send them both to detention.

Dexter said, "A great appearance, Craig, but man, isn't Imus a whore?
Just because some single-cup coffee maker is sponsoring the show, now, did he have to diss the Tassimo like that?"

Imus dis the Tassimo? You must not have heard Andy Rooney dis it on the old Imus. That was dissing!

And why shouldn't he dis it?

Jack,

If you are a Methodist then you can understand what amounts almost to a compulsion to do "good works" in Sen Clinton who was raised as one. Ages ago I posted a link to the "Chatauqua" movement with a note that Methodists can't even give themselves permission to go to summer camp without learning something new. :-)

"I am already thought of as a "Chat Bully" by one of the European members of this blog"

My we are jumping to conclusions today.
I could be wrong but I believe that is Eurotom's name for Brian in NYC.

Jack

Jack,

You aren't the "chat bully"

Oh, I'm as certain as I can be that they never assembled bombers at Fort Leavenworth.

Despite that, there's an amazing amount of history associated with that beautiful old fort.

Welcome to you all.

Posted by: Katherine Graham Cracker

Thank you Katherine.

then there are two of us Jack

I was called that by ET several threads ago.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

Jack

Posted by: WhskyJack | March 18, 2008 2:07 PM

They may have come up years ago for that matter but it was topic one on the Obama supporting blogs once the Obama/Wright story broke. Everything old is new again. Quotes from the Clinton book about turning to Graham for strength and then every antianything politically incorrect that he has ever said. Demanding that Clinton disavow him.

From the far right more accusations that the stand of the Methodist church proves she is a lesbian.

All part of last weeks stories.

Doots -- I don't think you are a chat bully. But I do believe you are a lesbian.

my goodness...Karolenna has certainly worked herself into a lather today!!

LMAO!!

there is a big prison at Fort Leavenworth but no a/c assembly that I am aware of.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

Doots -- I don't think you are a chat bully. But I do believe you are a lesbian.

LoL , I guess you just can't hide some things.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

I got the feeling from Obama's comments that he was infact defending his pastor as such a wonderful person. Garbage.
I also am concerned about his children and what they heard from this pastor. Does he not care about this?
IF he did hear Wright's comments when in church he out right LIED. Also his judgment is called to question.
He gives a good speech but that is it and I think there is more to come about this man.
I am really tired of how put upon the blacks are. What about the women and children living in abusive environments. My son is a prosecutor and he is amazed at how some blacks put upon themselves and kill and rape their own race. I realize whites do it also but we don't cry foul because we are white.

besides I was raised as a Presbyterian not a Methodist.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

Who are the Frozen Chosen? Presbys or Meth heads?

I like Presbyterians. The idea of building a concensus as part of church governance is a good skill for a church to be teaching.

Hi Bear,

I think it is the Presbys or at least that is what I have always heard.

How's your health these days?

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

Bear

Episcopalians

Bowman!!! I have one of those keyboards, too!!! lol

re: the slap game or skin game - I remember playing it with this one certain 12 year old when I was about 40 - I still remember how sore my hands were - I 'm guessing her palm hurt from slapping the back of my hand. She just looked me in the eye and WHACK!! with a little grin on her face.

Afternoon econ news - Fed cut interest rates 3/4 pts. The market should soar. Dow's up 191.

As for Obama's speech, as I said, I read it and thought it was pretty good. Had it been written after he won the presidential race and been more inclusive of other problems this country has \, it might have been great. As it is, it's just a good stump speech. I'm not saying I buy it, but it was a pretty good CYA speech. The difference between it and the great speeches referred to by others is its raison d'etre. The other speeches were written to inspire others to act in a way consistent with a vision of a better world and made in very different contexts. This speech was written in the midst of a political campaign to explain away and deflect attention from damaging statements made by the press and yes, supporters of Obama's opponent in the primaries, about an influential figure throughout Obama's political development. That is why no one will be talking about this speech 6 months from now.

Jamie said:
"Jack,

You aren't the "chat bully""

But the day is young and I could try reeeeeeeal hard.

Jack

Flatus,

I think he's just conflated this family history. I don't think for any devious reasons.

"She gave birth to their daughter on the base at Fort Leavenworth, and worked on a bomber assembly line when he left for war." 1/29/07

"My mother was born at Fort Leavenworth and my grandmother worked on a bomber assembly line."8/07

Just double checked. It is Prebyterians.

Frozen Chosen

http://www.jargondatabase.com/Jargon.aspx?id=166

Nope. Despite what Dooty may think. That is ET's nickname for Brian. No one else need aspire to the honor. He has it locked up.

Bear, not to be confused with Frozen Chosin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir

God's Frozen People

http://www.jargondatabase.com/Jargon.aspx?id=1060

Jack, HD, try as you might, ET wasn't referring to you.

Just bored,
"Everything old is new again"

I believe that explains most all the attacks, except those calling her racist.

Jack

Dooty,

I'm surviving...

This is a page I suggest you all visit today...

http://act.credomobile.com/campaign/support_troops/?qp_source=122

Let me see if I understand what everyone is saying here.

Obama should have thrown his Pastor and Friend under the bus.

Yet the Clinton's have yet to throw Jessie Jackson under the bus. Or have all you Clinton supporters forgot that right after Bill got elected he called The Reverend Jackson to the White House and ask him to be his Spiritual adviser?

It seems that you forgot that this was right after the Hymie town remark made by the Reverend. So shouldn't we now be asking that the Clinton's distance themselves from the Reverend Jackson?

All I can say at this point is that the Democratic Party is no more and I can see the blame being put on Obama by the Hillary supporters and Hillary by the Obama supporters.

This does not bode well for the General Election in November. And that is if we have elections.

Actually, I think the Democratic party is getting dragged kicked and screaming into the 2000s.

It's not like the GOP is attracting scores of independents, moderate Republicans more afraid of their own party's failed ideology than the satanic opposition party, and idealistic young people and seeing a resurgence in voters who'd become inactive because they'd been marginalized.

Plus lots of small donor support via the internet.

AnonP: It's a good problem to have.

"Or have all you Clinton supporters forgot that right after Bill got elected he called The Reverend Jackson to the White House and ask him to be his Spiritual adviser?"

LOL
What a straight line.
I must resist, I must resist, I must resist

Jack

Anon paranoid

Thanks for taking the time to post the links yesterday.

Having grown up in the Presby Church, I should be able to say that Presbys believe in predestination. Through 18 years of church and Sunday school, I can't recall ever being told about that at all. I learned about it in college only after having moved to a position of agnosticism, before jumping off the religion ship completely. I learned about it in a drunken discussion in a bar called the Chukker in Tuscaloosa, AL with one of my philosophy professors - an ex Baptist minister who was waxing poetic about hypocrisy in religion (as he had a tendency to do when he got drunk - which was frequent).

AP, nice try, but that ship sailed long ago. Jackson isn't on the Clinton bus - if you're suggesting he should be thrown under a bus, it would be Obama's.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17869051/

Funny, I haven't heard Obama reject his support because of the Hymietown remarks. Maybe he'll reject the remarks but not the man? I'll wait with bated breath.

Pogo: I disagree that it was not a transformative speech.

I do agree that it should have been given long before, by way of introducing Rev. Wright's sermons in full, with inspiring and inexcusable passages all, rather than once said sermons -- which were sure to come out -- had to be explained or defended.

I wrote aside my notes, while watching Obama, "he makes me want to be a better person."

You are a trained professional, a lawyer (which can make you a trained cynic too, in addition to providing numerous funny stories of folly and greed -- your client's, I am saying there -- not your own! I suspect you are a good and honest lawyer.)

So you may not hear that speech with the same ears of someone newer to the political process, or someone who had given up but tuned back in to see what Obama would say.

It worked as a CYA speech, but said so much more.

Pogo

A sister in law is an elder in her Presbyterian Church and she does not believe in predestination. I don't think it is a consistent doctrine.

I found this online
"The answer to your question is YES and NO. There are presbyterians who do and many who don't. It all depends upon your view of God. The word "predestination" is taken directly from the bible so if you believe the bible you believe in predestination.
Presbyterians and other Reformed churches emphasize that God is All knowing and all powerful. God acts in our lives and in history.
Predestination means that God has prepared our destiny beforehand and being all knowing, He knows whether we will be saved or not. Being all sovereign He determines our destiny upon our relationship with Jesus Christ.
Now comes the chicken and the egg, which came first? Arminians, who have a high view of human liberty, say we determine ourselves if we will accept or deny Jesus Christ as Savior. Reformed people say that is arrogant, that it is the Holy Spirit moving in us that leads us to accept Jesus as Lord and be saved.
The criteria of who is elect is FAITH. Do we form it in ourselves or is it a gift from God or somewhere in between?
I believe that God sovereignly predestines us to come to Him for that place He has prepared before the ages began as scripture tells. If it wasn't for God moving me I would never have received Chrst because my sins are too deep, too pervasive and too deadly"

I think you might want to reflect on barroom education:)

Dog,

Don't knock the Satanists...I find that if you get Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses humping your doorway, satanist declarations scare them away pretty quickly...

Yes I will give you an Amen!!! for that...

Bear. That's funny. Whenever I find Jehovah's Witnesses at my door, I always tell them I am home sick with the flu, but thanks so much for dropping by and I'll take the brochure. 15 second interaction, and those nice ladies smile sweetly before fleeing.

"Poor Patty Murray, all she did was suggest we should try to understand Bin Laden and was practically ridden out of town."

We're a tough crowd up here KC.:)

I'm still upset with her about supporting HRC. She better cut that shit out!
Posted by: Rezdog | March 18, 2008 1:49 PM

I interviewed Patty Murray when she was first running for the U.S. Senate. She came right up to KAOS radio and we had a 1/2 hour question and answer program live. She was billing herself as "a mom in tennis shoes"... She's bright, and I was CONFIDENT she would win the election.

As for supporting HRC, that's all the more reason to like her... sorry Rez... :-)

Now as for Gregoire...

Frozen Chosin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir

that must have been one very uncomfortable place to fight a battle. Not that there are any comfortable places to fight a war but you know what I meant.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

I think I'll be a brain surgeon.
Even though I've only done minor surgery
and my LIFE LONG mentor and Pastor says "SURGERY is evil and god damn surgery!!"

I still want the job. I want to unite all SURGEONS with all of those who'd rather suffer or die. My Mother was a surgeon. My Grandmother was a surgeon.

Those who blame the SURGEONS when surgery fails.
Yes they tried their best but it was NOT good enough. They failed. Why try again? Gd dAm the SURGEONS.

Just hire ME and I'll unite the SURGEONS with the herbalists, the SURGEONS with the Christian Scientists, the SURGEONS with Jeraldine because she's the WORST of ALL! WRight?

SHe recognized a disease. Called us on it and we all went WILD! GD damn SURGEONS.

(um yea)

Smart move by the Clintons to be releasing her over 11000 documents as First Lady tomorrow.
All eyes will be still rivetted on Obama while she gets a pass.
The 2006 taxes must be a thorny issue for them to be withholding them or they would make those a part of the documents dump

a better analogy - perhaps

When picking the team captain

you don't pick someone who has spent way too many Sunday's cheering AGAINST that same TEAM he's wanting to Captain.

that's all

I want the TOP cheerleader (no W pun intended) or TOP quarter back as Captain. Not the mascot from another team.

jmo.

BTW, many of your blog names say much about you as people, especially those with the Hussein included. You like to include that as defamatory, but perhaps you don’t know that one of our best allies was King Hussein of Jordan who “successfully balanced the pressures of Arab nationalism and the allure of Western-style development against the stark reality of Jordan's geographic location”. Even Reagan said “King Hussein has led Jordan with strength and wisdom”.
.
Posted by: Karolenna | March 18, 2008 2:11 PM

Karolenna, I don't mind you calling all of us Hillary supporters "trolls" well actually I do... but I think you need to take some serious chill pills and re-read what you wrote. As I have understood it, the people who have put Hussein in their names have been all Obama supporters who wanted to proclaim the name proudly, not something to hide or feel ashamed of.

You can bash the Clintons and us all you want, but as the old saying goes, you point a finger at others and you have four pointing back at you.

Tom

What reputation is that Jack? I am already thought of as a "Chat Bully" by one of the European members of this blog.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!
Posted by: Horsedooty! | March 18, 2008 2:11 PM

As the only European member of this blog I can assuredly tell Horsedooty that he is NOT the person that I call "chat bully"... Why would you think so? Ok you went off on me ONE time, I got over it.... Please don't get a semi-paranoic complex. I don't think of you in a negative light at all...

Tom

AP

Absolutely none of the Clinton supporters have said Obama needed to throw his pastor under the bus. We were questioning his previous stance that he had never heard any of these negative remarks while he was in church, something he has now said in the speech wasn't true.

It was a question of his veracity not his loyalty.

Also, I don't consider the speech the best thing since "I Have A Dream" (you can tell these baby newsreaders have only heard recordings and are swallowing a talking point whole). In it he equated what his pastor said with what Geraldine Ferraro said and referenced the OJ sentence reaction as a symbol of the great divide plus a bouquet thrown to a white campaign worker.

Great speeches stick to great ideas. They don't bring in individuals. It really was two speeches thrown together to the detriment of both.

Culturally I am Lutheran... but there are no Lutheran churches in Belgium... Mauro, my partner, is anti-religion even though he's Catholic... I keep on threatening to go to church every Sunday but Dutch services aren't very interesting... Actually I like going to church maybe once a year... during the Christmas season.

BTW,

Both this speech and the Constitution started with a grammatical error: There is no such thing as "more" perfect.

Something is either perfect or it's not, but it's a little late to argue with the founders about editing.

I am off... I have been pressured to watch a Spanish gay movie called BEAR CUB...

bye everyone...

European chat bully ;-) xoxoxoxox

ET

you did call me that or dont you remember?

As the only European member of this blog I can assuredly tell Horsedooty that he is NOT the person that I call "chat bully"... Why would you think so? Ok you went off on me ONE time, I got over it.... Please don't get a semi-paranoic complex. I don't think of you in a negative light at all...

Tom

I am not paranoiac semi or other wise. It is just how I saw the comment. I dont think of you in a negative light either.

Yo soy un demócrata amarillo del perro.

Yo soy Hussein Horsedooty!

i think his speech was a perfect con artist speech ......over the weekend since friday night he looked into a camera on almost every network and said i was never in the church when remark were made and in this speech he said ..".was i sitting in the pew when rev wright made contreversial remarks yes i was"...that means he lied at least seven times that i seen ,,,,,,,saturday he said he knew rezko for 24 years and had lunch with him every day during his campaign .....when he kept saying he was just a acquaintence.......oh he lso donated 250,000 instead of 150,000.......how many lies is he going to get away with .......the MSM keeps giving..... him a pass on these lies and he talks his way out of them .....i cant see this guy as president and when the gop and 527's get through with him he will look like hamburg

dog, dahlin', speeches are transformative IMHO only if they transform something. Maybe this one will - time will tell. I think we all have to decide individually what we think of this speech - we each have our opinions, and as a friend of mine used to say, opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has them and no one much cares about anyone else's. It's a little crude but I always loved that saying. Like I said, or meant to - I think the context will prevent this speech from being a great (read transformative) one. But like I often say, time will tell.

And dog, I was a cynic long before I was a lawyer. Tha's really not something they teach in law school.. You learn how to research, read cases, write, and to some extent, talk, but you have to pick up the thinking thing on your own. Either in spite of or because of my natural cynicism, law is a very comfortable fit for me. Suffice it to say, I don't take much that is said at face value. I have to laugh at the JW comment, a couple of them came to the door yesterday and were greeted by Lil' Pogo. It was a short visit. I'm sure the little Catholic boy had that "what th'" look on his face.

kc, it was only the predestination thing I learned in the barroom religion discussions. Well, I learned a lot more than that, but not about Presbyterianism. He just made me aware that one of the tenets of the church I grew up in was a doctrine I never heard about in my years in the church. I figure that Presbyterians fall into 3 camps on the issue - those that have never heard of it (or at least didn't know it is supposed to be one of the beliefs of the faith); Those who have heard of it and believe it and those that have heard of it and don't believe it. Actually, religion aside, the guy was a wonderfully intelligent man, and was probably the best orator I ever had as a teacher.

Ahhhh, HD, so you are a chat bully? LOL

Honestly Horsedooty I don't think I would call you that, but if I did, I do apologise -- I may have said it in passing, but I usually don't hold on to something like that. Sorry again :-) ... I never like to leave hard feelings with people, especially if I caused them.

Really have to go now...

" I don't think of you in a negative light at all..."

Tom, Doots is a photographer -- just think of him in terms of "light" and "negatives."

http://www.afn.org/~dks/race/clinton-e6.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/0897/ijse/tocsv.htm

Pogo, KGC-- it's prestidigitation. ;-)

I am an avid Clinton supporter and was impressed with Obama speech.Although I personally don't tust him he knocked it out of the park and.I can understand why all these people are star struck by him,but I still believe Hillary would make a better president for us at this time.Her speech on Iraq was very good and they showed some of her answers to the economy crisis but cnn only showed a small part and none of the other channels had it.And being on a rural land line I am not able to watch videos.Guess I'll have to loosen my purse strings and get sattelite.

Craig, I so LOVE your video TM's. They are, indeed, clever. *L*

It's serious duck weather here abouts. Great for giant ducks.

Hillary introduced a bill or something pointing out it's action not speeches that count.

tt

Flatus - forgive me the misspelling. LOL Lance Burton would never forgive me.

KC, thanks for those links. AS they say in the guitar world - someone has already played the lick you just wrote.

Dow update - up 397 pts. Do I hear 400? Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler?

KGC

Thanks for posting those links.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/03/obama-hopes-for-a-teaching-mom.html#comment-54280

Personally, I found Mr Clinton's speech more rigorous and more meaningful than today's. But, that's in the ear of the beholder.

In any case, the tremendous divides we _still_ face _have_ been addressed in the past. But, we as a people, have not seen bridging the divides worthy of the effort it will surely take.

pogo, the financials are very weird these days. Gold is over $1K and heading toward $2K? Yowza.

tt

I always found the best way to make a vist by JW's short was to offer them a beer. If the conversation started to drag on too long I always asked the question: Why did God get rid of the dinosaurs? At that point they would usually give up and head down the street. If not, then there was something boiling over on the stove, gotta go.

Craig,

You lack objectivity. I am really beginning to wonder where your anti-obama slant is coming from!

Edwards/ Clinton VP ticket will run as independents

OMG.....
tt..... gold heading toward 2K an ounce....

all I know is that if the many jewelers I know didn't buy gold while it was still a reasonable price.....

well..... some of them definitely will be going out of business....

tt, indeed they are - i may invest in gold, actually. I don't see it dropping soon (although it is just now matching its prior inflation adjusted high). And the Dow is now up 420 - any faster and it will get the bends.

Bowman, what a great couple of questions. LOL

Jamie:

"don't minimize her as some noblesse oblige rich woman dropping in on the lower classes."

I get your point. In fact, it happens to me now and again - when people write me off as a sell-out, no-good, money-grubbing corporate attorney.

But the fact remains - the further you are from the street - the more likely someone will question your "street credibility."

And Clinton has been one of the most famous and powerful women - in the world - for almost two decades...

AKUNZ - simple - Craig hates Obama, is in the tank for Clinton, etc. Just ask Brian. Isn't there some saying about removing the log from your own eye before you remove the mote form another's?

"When picking the team captain" - you pick the player that lifts up the entire team.

Not just the man or woman with the best stats.

warren, true enough, of course that's usually the pitcher, point guard, right forward, quarterback, middle line backer or the guy with the best stats. LOL

Just saw the speech and it was a pretty amazing one to say the least. Craig I couldn't disagree with you more. Craig he's not asking the voting public to understand his "crazy preacher", he's saying don't be so quick to condemn a man till you've walked in his shoes. As I said when this brew-ha-ha started, I don't know why so many people are shocked or surprised by black rage. I thought the most interesting part of the speech was the generational aspects of it, and a son explaining why he is not like his father, yet still loves his father. I also thought the heavy judeo-christian them to the speech was a very clever stroke on his part.

Whether or not Florida votes are counted, the voters in Florida are cynical already. The politicians they elected to their state's House and Senate have been involved recently in an underwear debate. The Senate ruled that wearing low-riding paints and exposing one's underwear should warrant suspension from school, and the matter was passed to the House. Since the Florida voters (and the rest of us) already know about President Clinton's underwear, they are likely to vote for Senator Obama in the general election, since there is a demand for change.

I see Obama as a point guard - along the lines of Magic Johnson.

Flatus:. Imus drives Ford trucks but didn't diss Ford when GM gave the Imus Ranch for Children With Cancer four flex-fuel Chevrolet Suburbans .
He continued to praise the Ford pickup trucks.

My point was that Imus sold many Tassimo machines, praising them as a great advancement in coffee brewing art, then today started promoting a new single-cup maker , and all the while trashing Tassimo. He never complained about how "they break down all the time and never work" when he was pitching them.
It's like how Imus promotes that Mohegan Casino...I didn't know it, not did I ever research it, but I think it was 9-11 Survivor (sort of) who revealed here that Imus is a large stockholder in the casino.
Hey, even as Imus becomes more confused and mumble-mouthed, I still watch him.
I wonder about his talent evaluations, however. While he really found a gem in Tony Powell, who is truly a funny dude,and getting funnier by the day...OMG!...is that guy talented or WHAT!.. I also say he really hurt the show with Karrith Foster. She's goofy, not funny, and always ruins her timing on her bits by invariably tripping over the written script she reads from. She is the least funny comedian I have ever seen on TV. To borrow a phrase from Warner Wolf..."C'MON, I-MAN!!"

Pogo...
that's not true....

the captain is usually the guy that is the most uplifting while in the locker room...

for instance.... the NE Patriot's captain is considered to be a defensive player named Tedy Bruschi.... not Brady or Moss....

the captain of the Boston Red Sox is their catcher, Jason Varitek.... not Manny Ramirez or David Ortiz....

Craig,
You called it exactly as what Obama hoped it will be: an education of sorts.

Maybe that's why Obama needed to start at the chronological beginning to educate us about Wright and wrongs.

He began with the Declaration of Independence (interesting starting point) and the inherent expectation of equality achieved embodied in our American experiment. He skipped the Constitution save the exception of the Slavery Question which our founders Constitutionally put off until in 1789, the Great Compromise had gotten ugly, and a number of Congressmen broke their silence in the general politican firestorm of their time. Hamilton and others demanded the abolishion of Slavery. His feud with Burr intensified. Jefferson and Madison had no realistic remedy to free the slaves, so they opted for a return to silence. Washington too, thought the divisive disunion between the north and south would jepordized national security for the short term, though he freed his slaves and provided for them upon his death. Franklin's finest hours asked whether we had any moral justification for rejecting Muslim slave trade when we failed to even enforce our own anti-slave trade laws. And so it went until Lincoln first hung instead of pardoned a notorious slave trader in NY. At first, the Press was in favor of a pardon, but upon the trader's execution, hailed his death as the triumph of freedom. Education is a good thing.

Tough spot for Obama though. Lots of related problems. He'll be blamed if Flordia doesn't get to cast their delegates. It is hard to be all things to all people. And then some historic speech about Race? Frankly, I don't think Obama's problems are so much about race. It is about authenticating who Obama is, if not charactered by the very people Obama considers important friends.

Beyond the polarizing effect the Obama campaign has now drifted into, Electibility is the operate word here. And it's going to get worse because of the accumulated drag on his original great co-efficient. Not very smart not to see a multplicity of related problems. Yeah, electibility is the question. Good word for Colbert.

(I see Powers showed on La Report to push her new book. You saw someone who will likely be welcomed back into an Obama administration, giving an insincere apology about calling Hillary a monster. She was there to promote her book. The lines I can remember are about the end of our "winning" anything anymore and the need to find ways to talk to our enemies in the name of saving children and families caught between evil and evil. Didn't have a great come back to COlbert's , "Well, Saddam is gone".

I am suprised Colbert didn't ask about women's rights or even the oil for food scam. I suppose Powers will have to educate us too, eventually.)

Or maybe the hope is that the less edicated crowd will fail to be educated enough to accept Obama's reasoning and judgment.

Or maybe we need to change our lack of knowledge. If each person tried to understand more, we could vote for Obama and get the real change needed to fix systemic imbalances that have led to our uneducated state in the first place.Corprorate America wants to hire smart overseas workers while keeping us as stupid as possible......

As I listened to Obamaspeak I saw discomfort in his having to be humble or rejecting words too harshly. I guessed correctly the attack would be diverted to "those who seek to use race in a racist way". I am still struggling to undersand the many ways one can "use". I guess he means the retailers of the "God Damn America" T-shirts?

I see the conscious incongruousness of ideas (words) meshed together as if by mixing one could produce some validity. Magicians at least pull a rabbit out of a hat. Perhaps a re-write in progress is the height of audaciousness.

Let's see the next round of high flying poll numbers. Funny thing is: the media actually has softened the blows and continues to dampen Hillary. Maybe Dean can pull Florida out of his....

My only concern with Obama's disposition on Rev. Wright is simple.

He spoke as those there is and has been no alternative in the Reverend's generation to the rage against whites among his good works.

There is a world of thinking -- a current world -- available which explores ideas which would be a lot more consistent with the Church's good works than Wright's theology of racial blame and helpless anger.

Others of the Reverend's generation have addressed the culture and the place of personal responsibility:

"Your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other [the N-word] as they're walking up and down the street. They think they're hip. They can't read. They can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."

The year was 2004. The speaker was Bill Cosby. Here is the WAPO link covering that story... followed by the speech he gave six weeks earlier at the 50th Anniversary Commemoration of the Brown Vs. Board of Ed. decision.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24594-2004Jul2.html
http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm

Jesse Jackson stood by Cosby's side when he made the second group of remarks.

Read these. There is nothing new here. Yet there was in Obama's speech a sense of the immutable and inevitable in how he characterized both his pastor and Rep. Ferraro as these Manichean opposites.

I fault the Senator on seeing things in the wrong sort of black and white. There is more and infinitely better to hear in the voices of the generation which precedes his own.

That does not fill me with hope or with any sense of change.

And, yes, the Senator did talk about the necessity for improved education. Now perhaps his campaign will put together an actual program to accomplish that.

The democratic party has just been split by race. You will find blue-collar whites that disagree with the whole notion of black rage, and they will refuse to support anyone that buys into the "blame the whites" game. Additionally you will find blacks who will only vote for someone that shares their "black experience"

HRC is more like Ray Lewis.

Too true, TopStory. The ironic thing about racism is that it knows no race.

TopStory,
Who have blacks been voting for all this time?

renee, I said usually, not always. Pro sports are busnesses, and tend to be different from sports up to that level, but I'll see your Bruschi and Varitek and raise you with LeBron James, Magic, Larry Byrd, Bret Favre & Peyton Manning.

Actually, my point is that the captain is typically the team leader - the guy the rest of the team looks to for direction - not always the guy calling the plays, but I'd wager that's who it is more often than not.

"Others of the Reverend's generation have addressed the culture and the place of personal responsibility"

The Reverend Wright has also addressed personal responsibility and he has done it in the trenches.
Not as Bill Cosby speaking to other middle class types and sneering down from on high,IMO.

I'm not sure what your point is but I often see such comments as an attack on many AA leaders without the knowledge of what is going on in the many black communities across the nation.
Jack

For all the Clinton supporters.
Philly Inquirer of March 18, 2008:
Clinton: Race and gender issues ‘complicated’