Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Yes we can lose again.

oops hoo.

It is like when people respond to a direct question with
" Whatever". He makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and good, isn't that enough? Why be specific when all your supporter just love the messenger and don't even know or care what the message is. I think Dr. Suess must have a book about this.

G.O.P. Bloggers Gird for Obama

"If you listen closely, you can already hear the test rounds exploding.

The target is Mr. Obama’s favorable but hazy persona, which Republican operatives must redefine in negative and even frightening terms. Assuming that the Republican nominee will be Senator John McCain, they will aim to contrast his tough, aggressive stance against Islamist terrorism with his opponent’s alleged weakness and naïveté. But as usual they will do worse, spreading slurs and smears that depict Mr. Obama as a dupe or even a sympathizer of Islamic radicals.

As usual, the right-wing narrative melds half-truths and lies with facts to create a seamless indictment."

http://www.observer.com/2008/g-o-p-bloggers-gird-obama

Obama should have defined himself, before the Republican's have a chance. Now they are going to drop the hammer and Obama is going to be wondering why they are so mean. And his current tactics of being above all the "politics" are going to fail as the portrait is painted by political artists that will make it a very troubling picture that will scare the silent majority away. I am pretty sure that it will end up as Bye, Bye, Bama.

bowman....well if history is any guide at all, that is what has happened every time since LBJ except for Clinton and Carter. Clinton because Ross Perot took out Bush1 for him, and Carter because Nixon was such a fuggup.....

Obama's speeches tell me........OH THATS RIGHT NOTHING.!!!! It is a SAD thing that AMERICANS CAN believe in a person that basically says the same thing over and over!!!! I think people are voting on " FEELINGS" instead of " REALNESS" . Seriously if you are just wanting to FEEL GOOD find a motavational seminar to listen to and let us AMERICANS VOTE FOR SOMEONE THAT CAN HELP SOLVE REAL ISSUES IN THIS COUNTRY!!! HE seems to be a nice man, but I really HOPE for someone that can SOLVE PROBLEMS.
HILLARY IS SMART AND COMMITTED TO THE BELIEFS OF DEMOCRATS.. JUST WORDS ARE NOT ENOUGH FOR OUR COUNTRY AT THIS TIME WHEN THERE IS SO MANY PROBLEMS TO SOLVE....I

Obama will be brought down by the same media that now glorifies him. Morning Joe has just spent the last 45 minutes dissecting the Non-story that is Bill Clinton and a heckler. Nothing so far on the Obama-Edwards meeting, the WI polls (one showing Hillary ahead) and nothing whatsover on the Patrick/Obama "word" sharing controversy. The Repug attack machine will define the talking points of the election and that is a fact. If Obama wins the Nom, he will no longer have the MSM hatred of Bill Clinton blind them to his lack of definition when it comes to policies.

Once the Repug attack machine starts pointing out the deficiencies in Obama the media will follow along and by then it will be too late for Obama to right the ship. It would have been better if Obama would have used the primaries to define his policies because it will be too late in the GE.

Hey tan......you got your wick set too high, youre sooting up your chimney......

Obama supporter. “I think he even hit me in the face with his hand,”

LOL, Well lord man he either did or didn't.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/17/673670.aspx

Barack Obama's Presidential Con

"Rhetorical flourishes are inspiring, especially when they're authentic. The problem comes when they're canned. Jake Tapper has a good run down on Obama's convenient oratory. It would be one thing if they came from the heart, or if what he was saying was actually original. Unfortunately, they don't and they aren't. They've all been said before.

Cons eventually catch up with you. Obama's played his supporters for suckers. They bought into the hope hype, sucking up this stuff with a straw, only to find out Obama's not an original, he's a knock off, of a governor, no less. Siphoning off of a winning campaign to try to win the presidency with a formula. Hey, it's politics. One campaign model fits 'em all. Put your twenty bucks in the bucket and shut the hell up!"

http://www.taylormarsh.com/

lol

lol to Mr Fry, that is......

If Obama thinks the Clintons are negartive, wait until the neocon slime machine gets a hold of him.

lol @fry

The man is lucky that the secret service bounce him on the ground. Clinton took time to talk to him that is more than anyone should expect when you are harrassing them.

Jack

I'd just figured that obama supporters all sleep late.....
lol

Craig - Bless you for the headline & the story.

I had to laugh at Obama's "pretty words" speech which was filled with the words of others who actually had the goods to back them up. From the sound of his audience (did they pull soccer moms straight off of the Oprah set?), it sounds like they bought his comparison of himself with Thomas Jefferson, etc.

How does the saying go? People get the government they deserve. (sigh)

bowman - "Obama should have defined himself..." But that would mean alienating some people; everyone looks better with that soft, Barbara Wawa-esque fuzzy lighting. Shame on the media for not pushing him.

corey - If you hadn't signed your post, I would've thought it was B'rye.

Corey likes his ice mighty thin for a michigan guy.......

No worries , Sturg. Expecting 6-9 inches of snow here by tomorrow afternoon.

Corey....we're pretty sure that we will see some snowflakes by 2015 or so........

"Shame on the media..." Is it in poor taste to ATM before elevensies?

And let us not forget all of the pretty words that have led nations down the path of destruction. Perhaps identifying himself with some of those leaders would have been just as appopriate. Who knows? Nobody knows. He'd have to clarify his stance on issues & back it all up with a plan before anyone can know for sure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_el_pr/obama_edwards

People who post here are really the exception. 95% of the electorate's eyes glaze over when policy details are enumerated. People want inspiration, and Barack Obama is giving it to them. And, as an aside, don't we know that only a small percentage of campaign promises reach fruition?

That was sneaky , eh Blue?

Im not overly concerned with promises coming to fruition or what plans a candidate has except as it might affect whether or not a Democrat wins the next election.....instead of the norm: Losing........

Why "in secret"? In case he doesn't get the endorsement? So the Clinton's wouldn't have tabs on him for a little while?

"Although reporters normally travel everywhere with Obama, he left them behind to fly down in secret from his hometown."

I'd like to say that Hil'ry's stance seems closer to Edward's stance than Obak's, but who in the heck knows where he stands?

I guess he can stand anywhere he wants in private without getting pidgeonholed.

I stopped watching msnbc when they were praising barack and downing hillary. I will not watch them now that they have switched. I am glad though that they are finally reporting the lack of any plans to actually put "hope and change" to work. Barack has used his borrowed inspirational words to con as many voters as possible. At the caucus I attended it was clear his supporters had no information about how his "hope and change" would be implemented. His speeches and lack of plans remind me of the "compassionate conservatism" swill from not so long ago.
Shame on you Obama.

Don't you mess with my man Obama or you mess with me.

Well the south side of chicago
Is the baddest part of town
And if you go down there
You better just beware
Of a man named leroy brown

Now leroy more than trouble
You see he stand bout six foot four
All the downtown ladies call him treetop lover
All the mens just call him sir

And its bad, bad leroy brown
The baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder than old king kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

colleen - Obak is "giving it to them" alright.

Is he promising them all ponies that will never manifest? No, nothing even that tangible.

Hope comes from within; he's not giving them anything.

What this country needs is a specific goal and a plan to reach it. He hasn't shown that he has either.

mornin' all.

Craig, I can't believe how pro Clinton you are. Wait, that's not right, is it? ;-{)

I listened to Obama quote Lincoln, JFK and MLK in the span of 10 seconds this morning then say if his words get thepublic to "Believe" the public will make things happen. Then why in the hell would I consider voting for him? I wonder if Jackson & Sharpton might take humbrage at that? Colleen, dog - one question - inspired to do what? Lincoln inspired the North to defeat the South and maintain the union, JFK inspired Americans to get involved in their chosen causes and provided avenues to do that, MLK inspired the American people to seek racial equality and not settle for anything less. What in the hell is Obama trying to inspire Americans to do? Hope for change? I really don't get it, and I've listened to more than a few of his speeches.

Plagiarism killed Biden's 1987 campaign. No such luck with Obama--he's held to a different standard.

BTW, the rehabilitated Biden would have made a really exciting president!

Just watched Sunday's Meet the Press and Senator Schumer, a Clinton supporter, spoke quite effectively where this democratic primary is heading. This has been the concern that I've been raising for several weeks... we are going to be divided into two camps that will be very difficult to join together for the general election. I, too, am very concerned about obama's lack of true understanding of the issues and his own beliefs about those issues.

Obama stole from another black guy so it doesn't count

To answer Craig's question, "Yes We Can WHAT". Yes we can deliver a swooning heart throb, starry eyed female supporter falling out at an Obama rally.

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/48404.html

If Obama takes the nomination it won't take the GOP thirty seconds (trial balloons going up now) to dredge up every quote by his minister of 20 years which has been very anti-semitic at times. Tie that to the Black Muslims he worked with on the streets of Chicago (A group that does good things re identity and self respect but has also preached anti-semitism). Add in Barak's middle name, ties to Kenyan mass murders blah blah blah ... None of it will have to be true, but the same brainless crowd that does nothing to analyze him now will either attack him or flee from the ugliness then.

One of the reasons that a lot of the old line Civil Rights folks are more comfortable with Hillary is that they know how much of their support came from the American Jewish community 40 years ago.

blue,
The reason the meeting was "in secret" was Edwards requested it. Same thing for the meeting with Hillary.

We had to cancel the original meeting with Obama because he is such a big blabber mouth, He is lucky we agreed to meet with him at all. His campaign should be called the sieve.

The credentials committee? Anyone know anything about who they are, or what they do? Seems like they might have a big role to play in deciding who on the D side receives the nomination.

dnd, of course that meeting was secret like clinton's was. JE obviously has not decided to back either of them yet, so why would he, or they for that matter, want a public meeting? But just as the meeting was leaked, let's sit back and see if an endorsement is leaked.

Obama has a good record in the US and IL Senates, and a pretty detailed series of policy proposals (as does Clinton, as did Edwards).
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/02/obama-actually.html

Craig, you were eager to attack the media when Clinton was being unfairly criticized. And I was grateful for it.

Now, Obama is unfairly criticized, and you... quote a McCain advisor like he's some sort of impartial third party, and blame Obama for the unfair criticism.

See if you can spot the double standard.

*removes RSS feed*

Pogo... I totally agree with your feelings with Obama. I've listened to several of his speeches and at the beginning I was enthralled by the "message of hope" and doing something different. After a while, that begins to wear thin and you start saying okay, I get the hope part, but I start asking... "how is that hope going to happen"... or in the famous lines of American politics..WHERE'S THE BEEF? There is also an "air of arrogance" that concerns me in that I'm not sure that the democratic party can take an "elitist" mentality that doesn't help the real democratic base!!!

You go Craig, I am so proud of you! It is about time someone point out the obvious. He is a good speaker but then so is she. The difference is she talks about the "solutions". He has just TALKS!
I have two Clinton Staffers staying with me the next two weeks. I will do whatever, though little, to help her get elected. I believe in her with my whole heart.
Go Hillary, in Ohio.

Elvis, sorry, but learn to read what Craig'swritten before you accuse him of applying a double standard. You are simply wrong about (1) Craig's eagerness to attack the media for Clinton's unfair criticism by it and (2) Obama's unfair criticism by the media. In both instances, Craig has criticized the media for spending its time covering silly shit instead of the substantive issues inthe campaigns and has both praised and criticized both dem candidates. Craig covers politics and the media. You want to provide links to Craig'spieces that you feelevidence the double standard? Then we can discuss it.

"elitist" = code word for "uppity"

Nash, why don't you provide us with the current list of code words. We certainly don't mean to inadvertently offend.

Barack Obama: Yes We Con!

People want to believe that they do not have to do anything but "hope" and everything will change.

Maybe they should start by getting an education, and follow that up by getting a job, they add in some common sense. Sure they can carry hope along the way, but HOPE by itself will never get any job accomplished.

Credentials Committee

http://www.demconvention.com/dnc-elects-standing-committee-leadership-for-2008-democratic-national-convention-2/

They are the folks who examine the applications from each state to have their delegates legally recognized for the purposes of the convention.

flatus, sorry, i'm just a nash surrogate. he has listed all the code words here several times. we will either need to wait for him to arrive or dig back through the old threads for the definitive list. will work on that.

Oh Goodie! Are we back to being uppity again? Can I put down the baby and come out of the kitchen?

LOL at nash surrogate. Come on, channel nash and give up the code words.. BTW is elitist only a code word if it's in quotation marks? Do we need to set off all our code words in quotation marks or risk having them interpreted in their usual and normal meanings?

Thanks Jamie for the info.

From the online dictionary

elitist

noun
someone who believes in rule by an elite group; uppity [ant: egalitarian]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Actually, I added uppity, but maybe they'll see it and add it.

jamie, isn't your baby a liittle big to be holding in the kitchen? :-{)

Unlikely, you have it right. As a high school counselor I see parent (s) living off our welfare when they could be working somewhere I also see kids who cannot get psycholgical help because there is no insurance. It is very sad.

liberal
elitist
secular
educated
white collar
Starbucks
Volvo
Prius
hybrid
limousine
latte
soccer
uppity
trial lawyers
northeastern
ivory tower
academic
intellectual
NY Times
NPR listeners

add your own- forgot to add:

Hollywood
Michael Moore
left coast
San Fransisco
Massachusetts

kathy, thanks for the elitist code word list. with Volvo, hybrid, Prius, AND limosine as part of the list, what the hell is aregular guy to drive? G/S

Jesus, Crawford -- could you POSSIBLY be any more pro-Republican in your "commentary"?

If I EVER saw a column from you doing anything other than bashing and attempting to discourage Democrats, I'd keel over from profound disbelief.

Kathy/pogo hey, thanks so much! My education never stops.

Our daily driver is a 91 Suzuki Sidekick, love it!

Kathy....
nice list....
you forgot : wind surfer....

Obama bama bama
Mo mama
Fi fie fo fama
Obama

wrath is right, Craig's a republican commentator dispatched to discourage the dem vote. Brilliant. And it's working - I think I'll sit this election out. Not.

Flatus, is the Sidekick the Suzuki best known for seeking it's natural position, tires up? (kidding)

Craig, you hit the nail on the head ,again.

I, too, was watching part of MSNBC this AM.

They seemed to dismiss, only with a sarcastic, "Clinton people would love for this to get around" the clips showing Obama at the Wisconsin Founders Day event giving part of a speech that Deval Patrick had already given.. It was about "words matter", I think they do. My question is whose words are coming out of Barack's mouth?

At least with HRC we know they are hers, even if somewhat wonky. Yes, she understands and gets what she is saying.

Lets see if press give him a free ride on this, they sure side lined Biden years ago with something similar.

renee, G/S.

"you forgot : wind surfer...."

...and French.

press mantra "Must not touchthe golden one, Must not touch the golden one."

welfare caddilacs

my god, sturg, that's soooo 60s. (It's not coming back is it? Tell me it's not coming back. PLEASE TELL ME IT'S NOT COMING BACK!!!)

renee, my R&B is a little rusty, but I think it's

bama, bama,Obama
banana fama Mo mama
Fee Fi Fo fama
Obama

I was trying to just get a list of the "elitist" variety code words - if we are going to do all liberals we will be here all day- and have to include all the interest groups.....

From Armstrong Williams:

"The word on the street is that the Obama campaign and New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg have already met and devised an incredible plan if Clinton wins the nominee. Mayor Bloomberg would give nearly $1 billion to Obama's campaign after which Obama would bolt from the Democratic Party and run as an Independent candidate with king-maker Bloomberg as his running mate."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25021

Great post today Craig - everything is starting to bubble up to the surface - I hope it's not too late - then we can have two highly experienced candidates with differing POVs to choose from in the general election. Hillary v. McCain,

If not - the Dems will have to be satisfied sitting around and waiting for another 4 years because Obama will be taken down very quickly by the same media that propped him up.

Remember...the gaps really closed between mid Jan and Feb - his rise was very very fast. His fall will be just as fast - if he gets the nomination, by November, he'll be just a faint memory of what he once was.

Pogo...
I knew it was wrong when I didn't see banana....

so I'm an uppity French woman NPR listener who sips wine and can't even get the goddamn name game song right...... guess I should take up wind surfing or become a trial lawyer.......

elaine of tampa

What's the word on the streets where you are about the votes in Florida? How is everyone feeling about BOs position on disenfranchising all of you?

"isn't your baby a liittle big"

Why do you think I wanted to put him down? Six one and 180 pounds is a bit much.

Gordo - Armstrong Williams is a long time republican mouthpiece who has openly hated Clinton for years. His "word on the street" stuff is bullshit, fed up by the RNC - what he's suggesting would of course violate just about all election campaign finance laws known to man, which he, Obama and Bloomberg all well know.

Renee-

wine drinker most definetely

I love it renee, you have now had a rare moment of insight and self-enlightenment coupled with a new career plan. Your life is now on track. Tell Rick. :-{)

jamie, now maybe you can quit buying Doan's pills.

"Bloomberg aides have studied the process for starting independent campaigns, which formally begins March 5, when third-party candidates can begin circulating nominating petitions in Texas. If Democrats and Republicans have settled on their presumptive nominees at that point, Mr. Bloomberg will have to decide whether he believes those candidates are vulnerable to a challenge from a pragmatic, progressive centrist, which is how he would promote himself.

The filing deadline for the petitions, which must be signed by approximately 74,000 Texas voters who did not participate in the state’s Democratic or Republican primaries, is May 12."

If Obama loses on March 4 will March 5th bring about a third party?

Gordo,

Believing anything from Armstrong Williams is right up there with expecting a trust fund from the tooth fairy.

Pogo

I don't have a little liver

come to think of it, I don't have much of a little anything.

sturg, is Krugman's column what prompted your welfare cadillac reference?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html?hp

Wonder if Bloomberg will have charts and graphs like Perot? In any case he'd be nothing more than a spoiler depriving the winning candidate of a clear majority/mandate. Bad on him if he does it.

Jamie, a little liver? Wha?? Maybe I'm a bit dense this morning.

http://home.intekom.com/pharm/menthola/doans.html

new poll from ARG shows clinton leading in wisconsin 49 to 43 with 7 undecided ......no mention from MSM ,,,,,if obama was ahead in new poll we woulf be hearing it every half hour

He's young, handsome and black... He doesn't need any more substance than that... or so think a large number of potential voters.

zumper, polls must be ratified by Matthews and Olbermann

dog's eye -- " Did Armstrong Williams mention how much he was paid to promulgate that Bloomberg-Obama spiel?
Because you realize A. Williams WAS one of the conservative journalists taking PAYOLA from the GWBush campaign, don't you?"

Exactly. Armstrong Williams is a complete crook. And a complete crock, now that I think about it. I wouldn't believe him if he told me the earth was round.

Pogo,

whenever you talk about poverty, you have so many causes that perpetuate generational status, that it can seem to be an insurmountable problem. Then there is the truth that the Republicans actually have some pieces of the cure and the Democrats other pieces, but they talk past each other and the children suffer.

In order to thrive, children require security and a stable family (of any composition) that sees to their needs and encourages their development. Drugs, alcohol, and violence cripple any child that must live with them, and a balanced, not just filling, diet to enhance brain development is a good thing. It doesn't hurt to have adults who respect education and participate in the schools. I'm sure everyone could add more criteria to the list.

Now how do you make all that happen? As with any war, it is very, very expensive and the various bureaucracies have to be more interested in putting themselves out of a job than they are in providing middle class incomes, and they have to come up with a way to do it that doesn't step on any Constitutional rights even if they are interfering with getting the job done.

Kathy,

add this to your list of code words

racist = Republican
sexist = Republiican
blowhard = Republican
wrong on nearly everything = Republican

yo soy Horsedooty!

BREAKING NEWS..........OBAMA'S PERFECT

media cant find anything wrong with obama......gene robinson says monica lewinsky is hillarys main problem (MSNBC).......MSM promises to keep looking for Obama's faults

did everone forget Armstrong Williams was paid 100.000 to push bush agenda on his radio program

I'm one of the worst offenders, though I did swear off during Mika to move to CNN. Watching MSNBC is almost obsessive. You keep wondering just how many possible ways and repetitions there are to slander, abuse, and lie about HIllary Clinton and any rep of the Clinton campaign.

The stats show that Obama gets 85% favorable and Clinton 51% favorable. They don't tell you that MSNBC is 95% Clinton unfavorable and the stats are only brought down by adding up every other radio and TV station to every blog and newspaper that says something nice about her.

It's a slaughter of commentary raised almost to the level of high art.

You see, zumper, mentioning that Clinton leads in a recent poll there might suggest that Obama's momentum in Wisconsin may not be as strong and compelling as the MSM wants it to be, so why mention it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/p18caucus.html?hp

It's sort of like their reporting that Clinton cancelled campaign stops in the state yesterday, suggesting that she's blowing Wisconsin off, but not mentioning that she stayed in Wisconsin and made improptu campaign appearances but Obama cancelled campaign stops because of the weather, but could fly out to meet with Edwards in NC and seek his endorsement.

Must not touch the golden one, must not touch the golden one.

I posted the Armstrong Williams piece to get your reaction. Armstrong is really reaching with this one. Did I say it is believeable? Of course, I'm aware of his history. Does not hurt to see what the other side is putting out.

Isn't that sweet. President George H. W. Bush passing the torch to a new generation.

jamie, you bet that poverty is a tough nut to crack - it requires a huge effort and commitment of resources. I only linked Krugman's column because of the welfare cadillac references in it and in sturg's earlier comment. The one thing worth noting is its refutation through the studies Krugman cites of the mainly republican screed that all it takes to get ahead in the USofA is hard work.

Gordo, thank god. I thought for a minute there that you had LOST YOUR MIND.

Actually jamie, George is just trying to get the torch into someone else's hands 'cuz he's screwed up so badly while he's held it.

Pogo
"all it takes to get ahead in the USofA is hard work."

But a job is the first step.

Jack

the reason i mentioned the poll because it really is news .......hillary is supposed to be all washed up and all of a sudden a poll shows her leading when she was supposed to give up on wisconsin...and was not going to stay there ..i think thats mews...the MSM ignores news when it favors her........... without MSM driving his campaign......he would have to get specific and he has no specifics

Did any of you folks read my friend Nancy Sigafoos' piece called "If Barack Was Brenda"? It's on my blog: http://eurotom.blogspot.com/ reposted with permission. PLEASE DO!!! I thinks he brings up great points.

USELESS BIT OF INFORMATION: For each Presidential candidate, I am sure things come u that most of us don't really care about or don't want to know. This is a bit old, but it's new to me:

"In an interview with Glamour magazine, Michelle Obama reveals that her husband, Barack, is so “snore-y and stinky” when he wakes up in the morning that their daughters won’t crawl into bed with him."

Does this qualify as TMI ? I mean... next thing we'll hear is his farting habits.

Jack, that is true - having the opportunity to get that job is what effective poverty programs focus on IMHO. There aren't as many jobs in the poor parts of town and the obstacles to taking the jobs that folks who would otherwise do so but for those obstacles are legion.

Actually, Jack, there are now a lot of steps before you get to the job stage unless you are talking about some huge WPA program.

Jobs that used to employ the unskilled or those with minimal education levels no longer exist in this country. Without even considering the good paying jobs that have been outsourced: No more telephone operators. No more train porters. Fewer mail carriers. existing assembly lines much more automated ... There is lots that needs to be done on infrastructure, massive clean up of our parks, clean up of slums (broken window projects) scads of stuff, but just try to get the money for it.

Regular jobs? There aren't that many McDonalds even in the U.S.

Clinton is only winning in Wisconsin because it is ...well you know.

zumper
Wasn't that an ARG poll?

If so you have to remember like the weather man they are notorious liars.

Jack

yes, zumper, and I appreciate that. Wisconsin has been close for the past couple of weeks, but you'd never know it from the news coverage.

Jack, jamie - forget what I said - jamie was much more thorough and eloquent.

jack

all pollsters are liars .......my point is if it were reversed and obama was leading the MSM would have it repeated every half hour

if 4 polls come out today and 3 are for clinton and one for obama MSNBC only talks about the one obama is ahead in.....same thing for the last 2 months

I thought "welfare caddilacs" was a Reagan thing......either way, they will use every weapon in their arsenal of slime and subterfuge.....they (gop) can really not afford to lose........but I was just striving to think of a code word which wasnt on the list......will have to read the Krugman, now.......

ET - just read your friends post - very good - she should send it to HuffPo - see if they publish it.

Since "Welfare Cadillac" came up, I am going to break the "not long" rule and post something I wrote for a project last year. Hope nobody cares.....

In 1970 President Richard M. Nixon asked Johnny to perform at the White House. Johnny accepted the invitation, even though he disagreed with Nixon on many things.
Johnny believed in respecting the office of the President, even if you didn’t go along with the policies. But that opinion did not extend to compromising his own principles.
Nixon had a song request for Johnny. He wanted the White House show to open with a song titled "Welfare Cadillac," written by someone named Guy Drake. Johnny had never heard of it and wanted to see the lyrics.
"Welfare Cadillac" starts out with the singer bragging about having a new Cadillac even though he seldom works and is raising ten kids in a shack. He continues to gloat about getting subsidized housing, a monthly allotment of government cheese, his kids’ free school lunches and Salvation Army clothes. But, he reminds the listener, he’s doing okay because he can spend his welfare check on a brand new Cadillac.
Whatever the writer’s intentions, the song came off like a slap at former President Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty, and performing it at the White House for Richard Nixon would have been a major statement.
Johnny Cash didn’t like being used for anybody’s political agenda. He especially didn’t like the idea of putting down poor folks. The night of the White House performance, he began his show as he always did. Following the band’s intro, he said:
"Hello, I’m Johnny Cash."
Then he was silent. The band kept playing for a minute, wondering what was going on. It wasn’t unusual for Johnny to change the song list on them, so they were always on their toes. Finally Johnny spoke.
"For my second song, Mr. President."

ET: I also read your friend's post and really enjoyed it. Sent the link to several friends as well...

Wendy, great idea, I will suggest to her. She wrote this great book "Dear Violet: Letter From a Desert Grave" . Check it out on amazon.

Jack, Why do you say they are notorious liars? They aren't any more liars than the rest of the polling outfits that I can tell - they have not, however had the best track record of the pollsters out there, although they have been closer in some states than some of the bigger pollsters (e.g. VA, CA and NV) but then again they have missed hugely in some state, usually on the basis of very old polling data.

It's Obama's, "Yes we can...." without finishing the sentence that's causing me to lean AWAY from him.

I still say that with her White House experience + Senate experience, Hillary is more experienced.

Obama's the #1 liberal senator and Clinton #16. So it's not a matter of who's more liberal, even though I mostly am.

tt

Fact of the day:

The number of 18-29 year-olds who cast ballots in this year's New Hampshire primary --84,230 -- shot up 271 percent from 2004

Actually sturg, I believe you are right - that's sooo 80s. :-{).

which democrat has won their second term election since LBJ...........William Jefferson Clinton. the only one........I say in this coming GE we'd be better served by going with a winner.......Barack so far on national level has beaten Alan Keyes. This is not a time nor an election to experiment......this one is for keeps and all the marbles.......and Barack of all people should know this......pride goes before a fall......and that young man is as proud as a peacock, to utilize a common simile.......

How politically bizarre it is that the Republicans are absolutely NOT mentioning Bush 43 and then Bush 41 endorses McCain who falls all over him.

tt

The Bushco welfare cadillac.

http://www.cartoonwork.com/archive/uspoliticscartoons/welfarecadillac.htm

"they have not, however had the best track record of the pollsters out there"

as I said, "like the weather man".

Jack

Once time more at the Skunk Fest:

http://bloggernista.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/bush-mccain-hug.jpg

Good article on the Hope and Inspiration theme. Believe it or not...it's not pro-Clinton - just pro waking up and smelling the coffee.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-foster-altschul/lets-all-take-a-deep-bre_b_87161.html

Actually, sturg, I take that back - that's sooo 70s. Guy Drake wrote Welfare Cadillac and released it in Jan., 1970. Had to be written in the 60s - Reagan stole the phrase.

http://www.top40db.net/Lyrics/?SongID=70279&By=Year&Match=

News in Dallas: NEW Kennedy assassination information found in DA's office after, what, 45 years?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-jackruby_17met.ART.North.Edition1.456340c.html

tt

pogo, good cartoon.

sturge, yucky pic.

Get out your tin-foil beanies to ward off the flood of conspiracy theorists.

tt

great link, Wendy - if you all out there haveb't clicked on Altschul's column, you should.

Jack, I get you. Wrong = liar - no intent necessary (at least for pollsters and meterologists).

Breaking News:
Edwards to endorse Clinton in Ohio....
Clinton will then sweep to the nomination and the Presidency....
All the problems will be solved......

From the AP Nedra Pickler
"Edwards insiders say that the Clinton camp has been more attentive since the candidate dropped out, and that Obama has even annoyed him."

pogo....yup.......I remember the song from back then, but Reagan was the one who incorporated it into his campaign.....the phrase, I think without the song along..........
between us we gottem covered.........

but is it true? WHo is "Vivian"? The intrigue builds... as does my red nose and my nasty cold. Have all the Obama supporters boycotted this particular blog or have there been a few too many bong hits to get up and go? Hey, early to bed, early to rise...

I read that Pickler about Edwards being annoyed at Obama, but I can't find anything to suggest that an announcement is planned for an endorsement. Is there something out there I've missed or are we just engaged in wild speculation?

And here he is almost on cue..

oh well....it was fun while it lasted......

Where's the Substance?
By Scott Galindez
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Madison, Wisconsin - Many pundits and the Clinton campaign keep asking where the substance is to Obama's campaign. There's a simple answer: in his plans.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021808Z.shtml

Does anyone remember an article about Ted Kennedy where Hillary and Bill campaigned for him vigorously when his senate seat was at risk? I need the link.

It was something about how Ted gushed about standing shoulder to shoulder with the Clintons and the betrayal of them in his endorsement of Obama

Sturgeone! you crack me up... LOL.. you and corey... heheheh

This is the guy who supplies the words for It's Only Words..

His motto when running for governer was "together we can" how cool is that?

http://www.bostonnow.com/blogs/tiredofmedia/2008/02/04/gov-duval-patrick-on-the-campaign-trail

Gov. Duval Patrick on the campaign trail
Posted February 4th, 2008 by TiredOfMedia

Too bad Governor Duval has not put as much effort on fixing the state problems as he promised while campaigning for office. The governor is putting more effort on electing Sen. Barack Obama as he did in his own campaign for office. But like both efforts, little progress in bringing the promised benefits has not and will not occur. The governor’s budget reflects monies from the proposed casinos that may or may not occur. Sen. Obama offers more of the highly unlikely public programs that voters want but the Congress refuses to provide. Most individuals in Congress are funded by special interest groups including Sen. Obama. Sen. Obama stated that he only accepts monies from the special interest employees and not the special interest groups themselves are allot of hog wash. The two groups are the same and their monies come from the same banks. Like the petroleum executives, Sen. Obama must think that American’s are a bunch of idiots. Nearly eight years ago another candidate promised to unite the Democrats and Republican parties in Congress and history reflects that then Governor Bush did the opposite. At least Sen. Obama is smart enough to offer possibilities once he or his staff become aware of Sen. Clinton’s proposed programs. Each time, Sen. Obama comes up with a similar program once Sen. Clinton offers a proposed program. One has to wonder what Sen. Obama has promised Govenor Duval for his assistance?

I thought Al Gore was in line to be the broker at the convention.

I think Edwards had waited too long to
make an impact. If he does endorse, he will be the last person from his campaign to do so.

here's the last paragraph from the excellent article linked by Wendy....
the article is by Andrew Altschul..... and IMO,.... note worthy enough to be posted here.....

"I've got news for you: If you think this is dirty, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

This kind of huffiness is just blood in the water for the Republicans, and "compromise" to them is a synonym for "sucker." The sooner we all get over the fantasy of the group hug, the sooner we can nominate someone who will step into the ring ready to fight the crucial battles that need to be fought. So let's stop and reconsider what we want out of the next four years: a friendlier atmosphere, or a better country. Because we're not going to get both."

Amen Craig!

I am so tired of hearing from Obama and his supporters that the details are on his website. Give me a break! He need to be able to articulate this.

One of the most revealing things to me today was this issue of ripping off Deval Patrick's speech from a few years ago.

Yes, I can already hear the Obama supporters saying "But Patrick said it was ok."

Really, the issue of whether he has plagiarized is not the important point, although it should be examined.

The important point is that Obama's appeal has been that his rhetoric is genuine and the "real thing." Now, one has to wonder how many of his other words are not his own original thought.

How is inspirational is this?

ET: Here is one column from Joan Vennochi (Boston Globe) the day after Super Tuesday:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/

I'll be very surprised if Edwards endorses anyone. Can't think why he would.

Renee-

Great quote!

I completely agree! The Dems need a candidate who will fight the good fight.

I do not want my Dem president to compromise on health care so that we have something similar to the prescription drug plan. That is Repubs version.

Already, Obama has a watered down version of health care. This, along with the economy, is the most important issue to my family.

Ally, that's the one.

what ARE you talking about dog's?

Oh dear! Is Obama the James Frey of political candidates?

Wendy - Thanks for the article on Huff Post. That article states very clearly the reality of dealing with Repugs.

There is a problem with that "solution" for colleges. A tax credit for people who pay little to no taxes, is nothing but air. There was a time when going to Community College was virtually free. You paid a nominal fee per class and bought your books. That was it. The State junior colleges were directly supported by state and federal funds out of general tax monies. If you were a resident of the state who had graduated from an in state high school, that was the only requirement.

The states actually had this rather strange idea that a population of people educated for various occupations or prepared to go on to graduate from a four year institution was a good plan.

Craig also brings up the point that Obama, according to Repubs, has essentially ripped off Clinton's economic plan.

I am curious, which policies are his own original ones? Please Obama supporters, do not refer me to his website.

Jamie,
Gov. Strickland, of Ohio, has a suggestion, senior to sophomore. It was in his state of the state.
I am hs guidance counselor who works with financial aid and the money is there just have to look for it and do the paperwork. Families who have a limited income DO get financial aid and students who decide to do well in school and have a good GPA is also a benefit.

I think it will be really interesting to see the results from the Washington primary tomorrow. It will be interesting to see who wins when 100s of thousands of Dems can actually vote and not be disenfranchised.

Actually, the reality of a "friendlier atmosphere" is what is defeatist. For the Democrats. Because to this crowd of Republicans and Joe Lieberman, "friendlier atmosphere" means "bend over and drop your pants, and let us stick it to you dumb Dems."

ET

Here's a recent article that mentions the 1994 Globe article you are seeking with a quote

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/

I am watching Ballot Bowl on CNN.

Huck is on. While I am not a huge fan, I like his idea about getting rid if the IRS and replacing it will a "fair tax."

Jan what bothers me is that there have been no commercials or announcements to directly encourage people to participate in the primary. Luckily my polling place is real close (unlike the caucusing location)

Patsi,

LOL! That is a great comment. I too agree that this "let's all love one another" and not ask questions is a HUGE mistake for the Dems.

If Obama is the nom, I foresee some major buyer's remorse.

I have been making calls for Hill. I can tell you that there are plenty of people who are not buying into his rhetoric. They want to know how he will help them. He simply does not tell people this consistently. This is a real problem in the general.

Jan

A "fair tax" is anything but fair. It is extremely regressive and as a percentage of income falls hardest on those with the least funds.

Thanks Jamie...

Oh and I voted in the Washington state primary.

The results of the WA state primary for Dems will be so skewed as to be MEANINGLESS! Between the many voters who will simply discard their ballots because the vote doesn't count, those who refuse to select a party out of protest (failure to select a party means your ballot will be discarded without being counted), and those voters (like me) who selected a party but took the opportunity to vote for the candidate they REALLY wanted (Edwards in my case), there is less than no chance the results will have any true meaning.

Jamie,

I am not sure I agree. Huck has said that for the poor, he would give vouchers so that they would not be taxed on necessities such as food and clothing.

The way I look at it is that if you are poor, then you are not buying much anyway. If you get these vouchers, then you are not paying anything.

On the other hand, the rich are always finding loopholes in the current tax system. It would be great if they had to pay for whatever they buy.

You know, I am Dem through and through. But, my knowledge is that the current tax system is relatively new. It was not until the mid 20th century that Congress devised this current system. Before that, it was basically a consumotion tax. Now, that seems fair.

but it will be interesting to see how the votes split in comparison to the caucus results.

well everyone, I really am sick so I am off to bed... cheers, and good evening

EuroTom,

I agree! It would be interesting to see that when voters have more time to vote that Hillary may get more votes.

If this happens, I hope the Dems seriously rethink the caucus system. I doubt they will though bc insider activists like having more power. It doesn't seem very democratic.

Jan

How would he determine who was poor enough to get the vouchers? You would still need a bureaucracy to determine that condition. Enforcement at the retail level would mean complete retooling of all equipment to levy or not levy a tax. The details go on and on . Now you might have a point if we returned to the basic tax as envisioned by the founders "Property, tarriffs and certain "excise" taxes on luxuries".

Tarriffs are difficult with all sorts of complications re level and enforcement in a global economy but actually the one considered fairest by Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations.

Property Taxes again have various levels and how are the proceeds distributed fairly from wealthy neighborhoods to poorer neighborhoods.

Excise? Which industries do you encourage and which discourage.

The whole field of taxation makes most people go crosseyed while reaching for the Advil. The one thing to remember if trying to do it fairly. Tax what you want to get rid of and don't tax what you want to encourage ... watch out for unintended consequences, they can kill you. :-)

ben laden here folks the american election is really a pile of bull shit

Jamie-
I forgot where i read about Hill's free CC plan.
Do you happen to have a link to that ?
TIA

Besides all of the groups that are disenfranchised or face pressure by the caucus system (elderly, disabled, military, union members, retail/health care workers, single parents etc.), another issue that has come up in Iowa is the fact that adequate parking was not provided at many caucus locations. This created dangerous situations for emergency vehicles who would have been unable to get through in the case of a medical incident (which was a real threat considering how packed/hot my precinct room was.) I won't even go into the obvious fire code violations found throughout the state.

I know it sounds like a trivial issue to bring up but it simply reiterates the fact that the caucuses favor a certain portion of the population. I'm sure there were many people who went home due to the lack of parking especially if they were unable to walk a significant distance (especially in snow and ice).

EuroTom

I love the Barack/Branda article!!

Did you know that you have a typo on the "about me" section of your blog"
("He does horror and xtreme comics, but in real LIKE he is sweet and kind. ")
--did you mean like or life?

When Billary finally concedes, are you guys going to be able to survive? I mean everyone was against you. The all powerful MSM just hated her. Okay, that didn't seem to affect her in her Senate races, but now, it's just soooo terrible. And don't let me go on about that dastardly MSNBC.

Watching CNN's coverage of HI - is Suzanne Malveaux single?

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/02/18/malveaux.hawaii.in.play.cnn

Anyways, I think the "Aloha Spirit" is a good reason to vote for Obama. I visited the Big Island with my friend Ku'u (short for the paragaph that is a HI name). There is a sense of community, cooperation and sincerity that is embodied in Obama's campaign.

Both he and Clinton are running on the Democratic Agenda. But Obama is articulating it in terms that speak to all Americans - whereas Hillary micro-targets in a way that polarizes people.

Targeting specific constituencies can be an effective way to win an election - but focusing on certain groups instead of the big picture - does not lead to good policy and creates plenty of resistance from the groups left. Demonizing or denegrating your opponents does not help either.

And inspiration should not be discounted. It is what has electrified and engaged the electorate this year - and no - Obama is not the sole reason for this. But there is no denying he does it better than most. I think this can be parlayed into a significant surge in public service - driven mostly, but not only, by a new generation. A generation that to this point - has been turned off by the broken promises and the partisan soap opera that takes place up on Capitol Hill.

And a generation that has many of the skills that country needs right now, such as speaking different languages and technology (which can severely cut down some of the inefficiencies of our government).

Rezdog

Here is her plan. It has a tax credit component but then builds on that with Pell grants, paid community service, "real cost" college planning accounts etc.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3671

Jan wrote:

"Now, one has to wonder how many of his other words are not his own original thought."

Well we know his economic plan is not his own...why should his speeches be his own? Is anyone surprised by this? I'm not - I called him an empty vassal that others continue to fill in order to push forward their own agendas - they all felt he was the right guy because he's young, good looking and has a nice voice and has been trained to deliver a speech like MLK. He's perfect.

Remember the last empty vassal that Cheney et al. used to push forward their Imperialistic agendas? We all know what a disaster that's been. Give these dems credit though...at least they picked a guy who knows how to pronounce Nuclear.

Oh and Rezdog. Her plan is six pages long with cited footnotes for additional information.

Obama has a very nice paragraph

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/#higher-education

It is easier for Hillary supporters to explain her positions because she discusses them in great detail in speeches and in dozensof townhalls.

Additionally, her stated positions in these forums are consistent with the information on her website

The debates best evidence the contrast between Clinton substance and Obama generalizations.

Only time will tell whether form or substance will prevail this election year.

Oh Alpha

The MSM wasn't against Clinton in the first Senatorial race other than some right wing sniping about "carpet bagging". The second race they practically brought out the palm fronds and hosannas.

HW, jamie, I guess I don't understand the WA primary/caucus system - you got a nickel tour of it for me?

Jamie wrote:

"There was a time when going to Community College was virtually free."

Jamie - I remember this time - I believe Community College should be completely free - a couple of years of college and/or some vocational training would go a long way in helping get this country back on track and do a lot for the so called "war on poverty".

Ally:

The Clintons are losing on message so they have to resort to crying foul. The media is unfair, caucuses are unfair, let's change the rules with FL and MI. I guarantee you that there are plenty of people in FL and MI that will feel MORE disenfranchised once the Clinton lawyers start telling them how "terribly they have been wronged."

All I hear about is Clinton's superior "experience" - even though she has never been an executive - and on the whole - she has demonstrated that she polarizes people more often than she brings them together.

She knocks down Obama's inspiration and hope - without promising anything better. All I hear is that she is ready to engage the GOP is more of the same partisan nonsense that has led to gridlock and stunted progress over the last 8 years. 50+1 is not going to cut it anymore. I don't care if Hillary can "win in the big states" or can attract demographics that are natuarlly part of the Democratic base. Obama can get the base, new voters, and anti-war Independents and Republicans - and have a mandate to actually push the Democratic Agenda forward.

Jan And ET...

Here's a link to an article regarding what's going on with primary voting in WA state. Not only will Dem results be skewed, Repub results will also be something other than the voters intend unless they're taking the pledge for the party of their choice.

I understand that you both think these results will be interesting, but how interesting is it if they're totally inaccurate in terms of what the results would be if people could simply vote and KNOW that it counted? I think the best we can hope for is that Jan's wish will be fulfilled, and the powers that be will realize that the caucus system is an incredibly flawed system.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/286253.html

Warren

Suzanne is not only not married. She has a twin sister named Suzette.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Malveaux

pogo...

Read the link I gave in my last post, and see if that makes the WA picture any clearer for you. If it does, contact us immediately, 'cause it's damn fuzzy to those of us who live here! (Just kidding. I understand it. It's a mess!)

yes, warren, Hillary has this terrible habit of speaking to the people she is speaking to about her plans to address their problems rather than speaking in generalities. How terribly polarizing of her. But I do hope that if Obama wins the nomination he can capitalize on the belief of his followers and articulate and provide them with avenues to express their hope and make the change (other than at Wendy's) he so eloquently goes on and on and on about because I'll be voting for him.

Wendy:

People need hope to make education effective. People drop out of school when they get discouraged and think it won't make any difference.

Obama has also talked about tution grants in return for public service.

Pogo

Short form. State wants to go to Primary. The political parties control how they select their candidates.

Republicans decided to run a combination caucus for a percentage of the delegates and then another percentage declared delegates from tomorrow's primary.

Democrats insisted on having a three tiered caucus (precinct/county/state) as their method to select their delegates while the state primary will only be popularity poll with no weight .

Lots of complaints, but no changes until the next major election at the soonest.

Warren: I made no mention of the candidates in my post. I was speaking to the ills of the caucus system. I find it interesting that you chose to turn my personal observations from ground zero of caucus country into another Clinton bashing.

In your opinion, what about the caucus system is better than a traditional primary?

She knocks down Obama's inspiration and hope...Nope..

Let's not misrepresent Hillary. I know that Senator Obama has done so in his speeches over the past few days.

Hillary repeatedly makes the point that much more is needed than talk. Obama and some of his minions turn this into her placing no value in inspirational
speeches.

FDR, JFK, MLK, and others backed up their words with hard work and excruciatingly specific proposals!

Oh, so Hill's CC plan is obstensively a 'tax credit ".BUT

"A tax credit for people who pay little to no taxes, is nothing but air."- Jamie [1:21 PM]

At least BO's program is a $4000 credit. More than Hillary's $3500.

Thanks Jamie! Suzanne seemed to really take to the lifestyle in HI. That is big points in my book.

hw, thanks (duh - I missed seeing the link). I get that - what I don't understand is how the WA caucus and the WA primary interact, interface, determine electors, that sort of thing.

Prince Andrew coming up on CNN. Randy Andy is getting a bit of a paunch and a double chin. He might have to let start letting Fergie visit his side of the castle again.

OD:

I saw Hillary's speeches for myself - and it is quite clear what she is doing. She is trying to neutralize "inspiration" - because she can not even come close to Obama on this score.

jamie, thanks, that helps.

On the Democratic side in Washington..the primary Tuesday has nothing to do with delegates to the national convention. There is a lot of discussion in Washington state showing dissatisfaction with the current system.

I do know that at the caucus events, people were chosen as delegates to county conventions. I'm not sure how that impacts national convention delegates or if the primary results Tuesday could have an unofficial influence.

warren, I have an idea, let's change the rules so that superdelegates have to vote to reflect the popular vote, or the percentage of states won.

Ally:

I don't think a primary is better than a caucus or vice-versa. I think they measure different things - both of which are important for a nominee.

Primary tests broad appeal and depends a lot on name recognition and getting your voice out there. Obama has gone toe to toe with Clinton in the primaries and he is only getting stronger as he gets to speak directly to more Americans.

Caucuses test grassroots organization and enthusiasm. Obama has trounced the Clinton Machine in these contests.

Perhaps Hillary could improve her inspirational skills by "borrowing" some lines from the Governor of Massachuttes for her speeches..

she's trying to neutralize hope and change without action.

Pogo:

The superdelegates will do exactly what they're supposed to do. Make a vote at the convention for who they think is the best candidate. And they will do so on whatever justification they believe will work the best for their respective electorates.

I think by the time the super delegates have to vote - instead of just talking about it - Obama will be the clear winner and super delegates will make sure it is by a decisive margin.

"Jamie,
Gov. Strickland, of Ohio, has a suggestion, senior to sophomore. It was in his state of the state.
I am hs guidance counselor who works with financial aid and the money is there just have to look for it and do the paperwork. Families who have a limited income DO get financial aid and students who decide to do well in school and have a good GPA is also a benefit."

From another Ohioan, Strickland is nothing but a Republican in disguise. Even those who worked for him and know him say he is not the person they thought he would be. The people who got out there to ensure he would be elected have been dumped. And, as someone who knew him when he was running for Congress early, I could tell you many a story from SE Ohio. And, Carol, if you are close to him as you claim you should know some of those stories. And, they are all in archival papers. Remember the stories between him and Frank Cremeans? Bet you do if you are old enough. Strickland behind bushes taking photographs? Oh, yes, you remember.

As for you people on this blog, it could just as well be a Republican Neocon blog. All of you sound the same for HRC. Same posts. Same comments. Nothing new. No wonder you can’t handle someone who is exciting. HRC can do for me what my kids have tried to do for years…get me uninvolved in politics, turn off the television, never watch it again and not vote, at least this time around. It’s time for the Clintons and Bushes to be history forever after almost 30 years.

Now, unlike some of you, I need to get a job to support myself.

Warren wrote:

"People need hope to make education effective. People drop out of school when they get discouraged and think it won't make any difference."

I actually wasn't making a comment on either candidates plan there - just stating a position about community college.

I agree that hope an important part of getting through life - but it's not all there is.

I spent many years putting myself through college. I paid my way through USC with no help from family and very little help from the government. I had A LOT of hope that I would get through it - what I didn't have was money or resources.

Hope while important is not enough to solve problems and move this country forward.

OD:

The problem isn't the words - it is her delivery.

Form versus Substance..

I choose Substance..

Hillary for President!

Hear! Hear! Oregon Dem!

Hear! Hear!

Warren, I'm sure that's what you hope will happen.

For everyone else (I know warren & kathy are likely attuned to this) who is thinking that if your candidate doesn't win the nomination, you'll either sit out the election or lodge a protest vote, please read this. I know, I've harped on this, but I will continue to do so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug-kendall/fearing-the-mccain-suprem_b_87101.html

I guess that if I were to use speech delivery as the standard for selecting a candidate, I would write in Ronald Reagan..But, that didn't work out too well as I remember.

It will be interesting to see just how diligent the press will be in seeing just how much Senator Obama has "borrowed" from the speeches of others..

Ah Rezdog ... the selective quote sans context. You seem to be taking your Obama support lessons from Rush Limbaugh.

Craig..been reading your books, one down, one to go. Although you took a few paragraphs, your post is the essence of "what" the HRC supporters have stated for weeks. What is behind BHO's veneer? It is "why" I'd like to see more debates -- although someone complained that we have already had over 20 debates, we have had only one debate with the two of them -- tete a tete.

I have political fever so bad this year. I actually had a dream about Hillary at my house (although it didn't look like anywhere I have lived) and I had her rest on the couch and her hair turned white like Bill's! I went looking for my honeymoon photos to show her and my husband was telling me where they were, except it wasn't my present husband...it was the voice and body of my first husband. EWWW. What a freaking night terror. So, I am getting my fix today by posting...need politics! Make the nightmares stop.

Well, as much fun as this is, I'm leaving. School's getting out (don't ask - I know, every other county in the US doesn't have school today). I may check in a little later for w while, then again, maybe not until tomorrow. Keep the conversation lively, please, and as they say, toodle-oo.

Blondie - you need a drink or three. LOL

Debates are important..JFK, someone I greatly admire, talked to his friend Barry Goldwater about the two of them travelling the country together during the 1964 campaign.

They talked about having a series of debates on all kinds of specific issues.

Hillary is not afraid to debate. There is something very important to remember. Hillary took part in a slew of debates while she was the clear frontrunner.

Obama, now doing better in the polls, wants to severely limit debates.

It sounds to me like Obama is the "old politics".

Also in your post, Craig, you stated BHO "supporters and advisers refer pesky policy inquiries to the campaign web site" or as they do here...read his book. I know I may be lazy, but he sure seems lazy, too. Take the time to paraphrase your book or website in between the chanting.

Jan,

Huckabee does a good job of making his "fair tax" sound almost plausible, but I think it really clobbers all those folks who live paycheck to paycheck. He says everyone will be getting to keep more of their pay, because there'll be no payroll tax, but I assume things like social security and state unemployment, and disability costs would still be deducted.

On top of that, taking home 23% more pay isn't going to have any positive impact on us when we're paying a 26-28% sales tax. I think that's the range he was working in, and don't forget there would still be state sales taxes, in places that use that method.

You're right that in the current system, the rich can find loopholes, but at least many of those loopholes encourage socially motivated investment, so decreasing your income tax bill by purchasing tax-free municipal bonds, at least gets schools built, or buys a new school bus, or two, now and then. And investment in an IRA or Health Savings Account, gives us an opportunity to plan for retirement or manage our health expenses.

There is no perfect tax system, and with capitalism investment needs to be encouraged, but it's impossible for me to envision ANY flat rate system that doesn't skew in favor of the super-rich. (This answer is subject to change if I win the Powerball lottery this week.)

"There's no there there." Is how a poet once described something. It could have described Barack Obama.

If the Democrats fall for this conman then you can look for 4 more years of Republican rule. We will lose. Just like we lost to Bush 1, unbelievably, after 8 years of Reagan.

Obama will never make it to the oval office: the media will turn on him, he won't be propped up by his bullshit caucuses. Americans will get cold feet about someone whom they know nothing about, someone who steals other peoples speeches, steals other people economic plans, and avoids debates like the plague.

It's not going to happen. The Obamamaniacs, with their blind support and their Clinton hatred, are going to hand the election to McCain. Nice job.

Clinton Campaign Calls Obama a Promise-Breaking Rhetoric Lifter

In hard-hitting media conference call, Clinton-backing Rep. McGovern implicitly compares Obama to an “American Idol” contestant.

Clinton’s Wolfson: “If you’re asking the public to judge you on your rhetoric and your promises and you are breaking your promises and lifting your rhetoric, there’s not much else there.”

http://thepage.time.com/2008/02/18/clinton-campaign-calls-obama-a-promise-breaking-rhetoric-lifter/

Wendy:

You sound a lot like me. You had enough hope and determination to get you where you needed to be in this world - despite a lack of resources. (it is a lot like Obama too!)

But this message of hope is really important for the people sitting on the side lines. The great "unwashed" as Patsi said. The ones who have lost faith in our government and lost hope in the American Dream.

The ones who used to not care who was elected - because they thing at the end of the day - it won't make a damn bit of difference. Hope is tough to come by when you can't pay the bills, can't provide for your kids in they way you want, and don't see any way things are ever gonna get better.

It is those people, along with the rest of us, that are becoming more engaged. People that are starting to think things can change. They are getting more informed - because for the first time in a long time - they are actually listening to what a poltician has to say.

I'd say Strictland looks pretty different from the Republican he finally beat to get to congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Cremeans

Go with the ad hominems when you're stuck Jamie.

If you don't don't like BO, just say it. it's okay.

Both candidates have similar plans on the many major issues, hers are more detailed. BFD . The details get worked out in legislation with input from interested parties. I'm not concerned with the cost of tuition. i guess you need to be told what to do and when and where to go.

Now, unlike some of you, I need to get a job to support myself.

Posted by: Karolenna | February 18, 2008 1:56 PM

Don't forget to apply for your medicare. You could save all that money even buy yourself a real nice medigap policy and still have money left over for a nice lunch at the Golden Lamb.

EdVB

You make some very great points...the federal tax system is so incredibly complicated...then there are those state and local taxes to attack. If we put accountants, tax preparers, tax attorneys, IRS employees, etc. out-of-work with a flat tax who will be employed in this country anymore? We have shipped so many professional salaried jobs overseas...we have created a self employment society. I know this sounds like Lou Dobbsian economics. Are we really ready to take down another sector in this country like we have real estate/morgage banking?

On the other hand, there exists a blackmarket economy in this country and a flat tax would drive more of the economy underground and barter systems would thrive. Very new millenium.

By the way, how many tickets did you buy? I know you are my competition, but good luck to you.

EdVb

If you win that Powerball. Take the cash option. To determine rough estimate of amount after taxes and cash option multiply prize amount by 41%. If your state taxes a multi state powerball you will have to allow for that as well.

Invest at least half of the final take home so that you get all the interest over the next 26 years that the state would have kept while paying out an annual amount if you had taken that option.

Have a ball with the other half which will come to about 20% of that big beautiful number that looks so tempting..

When Biden Did It Plagiarism was the Charge

Obama in radio interview with Ed Schultz: “My friend Governor Deval Patrick — he and I, we exchange ideas and words all the time. I used a riff he has used before. That’s the extent of it.”

Yep, Obama's worried. You don't answer stuff like this if it's not hitting a nerve. Truth is, he thought he was going to get away with it.

http://www.taylormarsh.com/

"There's No There There" was said by Gertrude Stein about her hometown Oakland, CA when she visited after many years in Paris. It's often quoted about lack of content or interest, but was not what she meant.

"There's no there, there" is the equivalent of "You can't go home again.". When you return to a place after an absence of many years, most of the things and places that were cherished or familiar are changed or gone so that "home" is no longer "home".

OK - Warren - I'll give you that.

But when I was trying to put myself through college and trying to live on $400 a month if Obama had come to me and told me to "keep hope alive" and offered nothing beyond that, at that point in my life, I would have probably flipped him the bird and told him to F*#$ off.

what I needed was a pell grant or some other subsidy to help me get through college - and it could have been any college at that point - it didn't have to be USC. The reason I went to USC is because they gave me a University Grant that paid for a good chunk of my tuition. The rest I borrowed-I'm still paying it back

:-(

OK - so hope gets people activated - what after that? Once you get everyone's hopes up - what do we do then? This is what people are asking of Obama because they see nothing after the hope. That's my problem.

Hillary also fills me with hope - and I'm even more hopeful thanks to her because I believe there is something after the hope - a plan of action we can all follow through on. I just don't feel the same about Obama. I'm sorry.

Your argument for hope is valiant Warren - I don't disagree with you about hope. My point remains the same - we need more than JUST hope. We need hope and the will and fight to follow through on a plan. That's what I had when I was working my way through college - that's what I believe Hillary provides. Obama doesn't own hope. I would say nearly half of the folks that have voted in the democratic primaries/caucus' so far would agree.

Warren

Hope for most is getting a job or keeping a job.

Karolena

Many of us are working for a living to support ourselves and others. Myself, included.

To all Clintonites:

Your attacks on Obama's lack of substance don't work on me. I learned a lot about this man before the Clinton Attack machine started spewing their talking points. I read his book and saw him do interviews before he started running for president. I appreciate the inspiration - but it is not what I support him.

I support him based on political process. I think he has the best chance to get things done. Ironically - in the same way Reagan did (who some of you hate so much on this board).

You know why some of you hate Reagan? Because he was a great communicator and he was able to articulate the Republican Agenda in a way that built a working majority. He got people to buy into this plan - even if it was against their own interests.

This is what Obama is doing. Even though people say his policies are to the left of Clinton - he is able to articulate his agenda in a way that garners support - all across America. He attracts Dems, Republicans and Independents and provides to best chance to move forward on the Democratic Agenda:

-Progress in Iraq and the Global War on Terrorism

-Make health care more affordible and accessible

-Lead the world on the environment and alternative energy

-Get special interests out of Washington

-Create a more balanced economy without so much wealth and opportunity concentrating at the top

Obama, Clinton, the Cabinet, and leaders from all parties will participate in hammering out the details - but Obama presents the best chance of getting such laws passed by getting enough buy in from the opposition. And he can do that with speeches - as well as old fashioned political pressure based on a working majority of voters. Clinton can't do that.

Gordo..I'm not surprised that Senator O would use Ed Schultz to fend off chargers of "borrowoing" ..
Schultz, a former Reagan Republican, has been attacking HIllary on a daily basis for months. He has received a great deal of criticism for this.
It is clear that "Big Ed" as he calls himself, has a lot of trouble with strong women.
I've contacted our local Air America station to complain.
While Ed is officially not a part of Air America, he appears on many Air America stations, including the one here in Portland. It seems that I am far from being the first person who has complained about Mr. Schultz.

Great quote from Quindlen --

Americans are awake and aware again, and if the committed Democratic supporters of one candidate or another turn this new era of good feeling into the era of prolonged sulking, the election won't be the only thing they'll lose.

For the whole article --http://www.newsweek.com/id/109577

I agree, OD, Ed Schultz is a pretend liberal.

Hi Warren:

I do believe you have good reasons for supporting Obama and are hopeful that he's the guy to get things done.

I believe his policies are poorly thought out, lack substance and doesn't have the experience in Washington to see them through.

The comparisons of their plans on almost everything have been raked over again and again - and he still comes up short for me.

I do appreciate your desire to stick with him and your belief that he's the guy.

Nice try Warren.

Being all things to all people is not a sign of leadership.

Obama's Republican lite proposals for health care..note not universal health care is the perfect example.

With all due respect, your 2:44 post is full of generalities just like Senator O.

Hillary will fight for Universal Health Care...Obama uses the same rhetoric as John McCain about this issue.

HIllary proposes and will fight for Universal Health Care. Obama does not propose UHC. I doubt he will fight for what he does not support!

Rezdog

You quoted me. There was a follow up indicating that that portion of Hillary's plan was like Obama's but that she then added a great deal more alternatives and substance and then followed it up with two links (1) to her SIX pages of material and (2) to his ONE paragraph.

If you consider telling you that you haven't described my position accurately an ad hominem, be prepared to be insulted a lot more often because I won't allow anyone to misquote me in a way that alters the meaning of what I said..

I compared you to someone I know who constantly uses that method. Do you have a suggestion for another name of someone who lies by only telling a half truth?

Jamie & BW,

Thanks for the advice. I thought it was a good way to end that message, but the fact is, I don't even know if they sell Powerball tickets in New York state.

My father used to buy a lot of New York lottery tickets. My story was that he bought the tickets and I lit candles in Church praying that he'd win.

Ed

Hit the candles for me. The Mega is up to $122 million tomorrow night. Following my own advice that would give me between 20 and 25 million to just fritter away on useless luxuries.

Jamie

This is for Bowmanc who wrote the following very early this morning while I was sleepin.."I think Dr. Suess must have a book about this."

Well, I am channeling Dr. Suess...

Read the website, read the book
Don't give me that hostile look

Green eggs and spam
This blog's a sham

Listen to the chant
Oh, that lady can rant

Obama's the guy
Or is it all a lie?

All done with the greatest respect to Dr. Suess, who had a huge impact on my early mind.

Wendy:

Respectfully I disagree. I do not believe Washington is a place you go to learn how to get things done.

OD:

I think a campaign between Hillary and McCain will result in each side laying out mutually exclusive and detailed policies. Someone will win with 50 + 1 of the electorate - and this is the perfect recipe for more gridlock.

Not only that, but there will be bitter and partisan attacks on Clinton AND her policies. Health care in particular will become just as polticized as immigration - and you saw how that worked out.

"there will be bitter and partisan attacks on Clinton AND her policies"

That could happen if we fail to send the Democrats to Congress that she will need for easy passage. Otherwise she will have to use her already proven talents to achieve consensus backed by everyone.

Kennedy said he is “shocked and surprised” by a Clinton pamphlet that is circulating in Wisconsin, arguing that Obama’s health care plan is not universal. He described the pamphlet as “a misrepresentation and wrong” and said he would not support Obama if his plan were not universal.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/02/17/politics/fromtheroad/entry3841351.shtml

However, FactCheck.org, a non-partisan website run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, backs up Clinton's claim in a recent report that Obama's plan is not universal.

With regards to Craig's point...

We know the story about the man who finds himself in a hole. The republican walks by and throws the guy a shovel so he can dig his way out of the mess.

The Democrat walks by and throws the guy a rope and pulls him out of the mess.

How detailed do you need to be when you are telling people here is the rope?

Why didn't people demands these "specifics" from W in 2000?

What is so bad with having a candidate that can use complete sentences and if nothing else, offer a way to uplift for even the briefest period of time?

George W. Bush will have one positive legacy to his presidency and that is a genuine advocacy for Africa. He didn't need grand specifics or plans to help. He recognized there was a problem and did some small things in his power to fix them. The result is that while Clinton will be known as the first Black President...Bush could stake claim as the first African president...

"There is a sense of community, cooperation and sincerity that is embodied in Obama's campaign."

Holy Cow! What a statement. Warren, you haven't been paying any attention. The Obama campaign has been devisive, anti-Democratic party, sexist, racist and mean spirited for quite a while. Now they are sending "plants" to heckle in hopes of making Bill lose his temper. They cover themselves well, though, I'll give 'em that. When he sneered about coming up out of Chicago back street politics, he should have given you a clue.

He may very well win. These kinds of politicians often do.

"will go ape shit with the Clintons back in the White House"

Actually I don't know that. There have been several turnovers in Congress since the Clintons were last there. There are many fewer pasty faced guys with dyed black hair or toupee parted on the left.

For the ones remaining without a pet President to give them goodies as long as they vote the party line, they will be much more likely to reach a compromise.

Time to walk Lucy.

And you Clinton people feel free to keep fighting till Mar. 4. Two debates and plenty of time to win - but Hillary needs to focus on the flaws in her own message - pointing fingers won't cut it.

This is the perfect way to handle the most recent "charges" from the Clintons:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_el_pr/obama_borrowed_lines

Wolfson claims: "It raises questions about the premise of his candidacy," Jeez - talk about hyperbole. I think the GOP would tear him and his snarky arguments apart.

Jamie-
You characterized a tax credit as BS for those without income.
1 page or 10, Hillary's higher ed plan is ostensibly a $3500 tax credit, period. BO's is $4000 one. Big Deal!

As everyone is saying, you guys want to quibble on details that may or may not come to pass as legislation.

BO wants to encourage participation in the process. You seem to want to be told what to do or what's going to be done for you. There is a difference.

This blog is the microcosm for the problems this country faces.

We are supposedly learned and reasoned people, yet we cannot advocate for a viewpoint without denigrating the beliefs of others. At least our host has the ability to do so in an antiseptic way whereas the group would rather use hate filled vitriol to do its bidding.

We have another election cycle where the candidate who will be most negative wins. We have one trick, flip flopping ponies, who will allow surrogates to spread falsehoods about their opponents to knock them down below their own level, instead of trying to grow and surpass the level of their foe.

It's annoying that people refer to Obama as first not being black enough, now he is too black. I am surprised that the fact he hasn't campaigned with a diamond crusted set of teeth hasn't been used against him. We are a miserable country for the most part and yet we piss on the person who is trying to change that tone.

I don't doubt that Hillary would be a good president. She has the command of the issues but at the same time she doesn't do "it" for me. I don't know what it is, but "it" is missing. If she is the nominee, we will be treated to the Republican punditocracy walking around with their pants around their ankles, because self gratification will no longer be sinful in the eyes of the lord.

With regards to Sen. McCain, why would you trust someone who was tortured, who then comes out and votes for waterboarding, a practice that was an executable offense when done by Japanese officers in WWII?

He has flip flopped on taxes...he voted agains the Bush cut but since it was enacted, he is against letting them lapse because that would be an increase...talk about parsing? What is his plan for anything other than calling Hillary a bitch, privately dropping N bombs about Obama and then admitting I don't know about the economy?

Patsi,

I suggest you lock your door and go buy a gun because the Obama man may come to your door step and force you to give up all of your rights and liberties as a terrified white woman you seem to be.

You should beg Rudy Guiliani to get back into the race because he made sure his police treated the black men as they should...bullet catching targets or as plunger sodomy targets...

I promise to sound the alarm if I come within 5 miles of you at any time...

Bear -- That's the most ridiculous thing I've read. You are calling me a terrified white woman cowering at the ought of a powerful black man, simply because I don't like his campaign style?

This is where the racist crap is coming from -- his side of the campaign. They've spun every comment, parsed every word.

Anything anyone says and it's "You must hate people of color!"

Good God....how incredibly stupid.

"Bush could stake claim as the first African president..."

He's done so much for Darfur, and all those abstinence programs to defeat AIDS. Nice of him to get vaguely interested in his last year in office.

I agree, but since it's a Non American continent that he can find on a map, he gets the huge bump from exceeding his meager expectations on the matter.

Rezdog

Quote my WHOLE statement not 1/3 of it. I called the Obama plan BS because it was only a smidgen of her complete and detailed plan.

He is real, real good at stealing a paragraph and wrapping it up in 30 minutes worth of glib.

"Non American continent that he can find on a map"

Well it took a very LARGE continent. :-)

As a lifelong dem and HRC supporter,.i don't see any way i can vote for Obama.His smug arrogance reminds me of bush.So looks like I will vote for McCain as he will only be in 4 yrs and I at least know where he stands.

Ah, I've spent the morning reading how Obama is reaching younger Latinos. Clinton, of course, decided to go with all of the older Latino king makers, because it worked so well in the black community (tongue firmly in cheek). Now, Obama is swooping in and reaching younger Latinos in Texas who aren't bound by this familiarity with Billary argument. BTW, can Bill blow up at an event just one more time? Each time, it helps us remember why we don't want a Billary administration.

Obama 08!

Arrogance, Ruth? What makes him arrogant? The fact that he knows who he is? Or the fact that he looks the Clintonite machine in the eye and doesn't blink. Billary was supposed to have this wrapped up by February 5th, and now things fall apart.

It looks like Wisconsin for Clinton, What will Obama's excuse be for losing?

Patsi,

The Obama campaign "racist, anti Democratic, sexist"? Really? Come on, even for you, that's silly.

If anyone is desperate, it is Obama who has to use recycled material.

Not only did he rip off his friend's material, but he has finally shown his inauthentic self.

This speech issue is not just about whether he plagiarized, it is about whether any of his other ideas are HIS OWN.

Since he has almost NO Experience, his currency to Dems are his words. If they are not HIS, then who are we being asked to elect?

Yeah sure, Go Badgers. BTW, I speak at UW on Wednesday. I may put an Obama plug in during the lecture. Too late for the primary, but still...great for the general election.

Jamie -

You know I don't give a damn about tuition costs. If I did I'd be talking to my congressperson.

I was using this as an example of how you and others here denigrate a BO position on an issue. An issue which he has a very similar stance as Hillary, but not quite as detailed. That's called being disingenuous.

BTW, you inferred a tax credit premise as BS. Both plans are mainly about tax credits and community services.

Jan,

Keep holding on to that dream. The dream that something, ANYTHING, will turn the tide back to Billary.

With all the comments about Obama's path away from Universal Health Care...

Has anyone noticed Michelle Obama's employer is one of the finest hospitals in the nation -- The University of Chicago Medical Center.

She has done well by them and they have done very well by her in salary. Her area is community relations with groups ranging from the rich to impoverished.

However, like all teaching hospitals, U of C MC is very much beholden to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries...for everything from general donations to the sustenance of its ER services to the Pritzker Medical School to its medical research and beyond.

It was several months into the Obama campaign that Michelle Obama resigned from the U of C Medical Center.

It is interesting that all of the Democratic candidates who ran in this cycle, Senator Obama has the absolute least comprehensive health insurance proposal.

Ruth,

You must have voted for Nader in 2000 because the Gore campaign didn't bow down to the Clintons as well...

Bill Clinton was the greatest president of my lifetime and I think he has acted like a jackass campaigning for his wife. While I recognize he is probably the smartest man in the room, don't rub that in my face. Don't wave that finger of self idolatry in my face because the first time he did, he proved to be a lying sack of poop.

You think McCain isn't an arrogant oaf? My inclination would be to stop inhaling from the Clinton bong and take a breath of reality. If a democrat can't win now, there is no way in hell they win in 2012 because McCain will have bought his VP a ticket to another term, unless that VP in caught in bed with young boys...unless he was a former catholic priest I suppose...

Wendy,

I know SC is a big school, but it's also a small world. Since you're still paying student loans, any chance you were there between '97 and '03?

My son Matt graduated in 2001 and daughter, Bridget in 2003, and I'd say we're all still paying, except that my daughter's back in grad school, so she's running up more bills.

Jamie,

I've got your lottery tickets covered in all the Schoharie churches that have candles.

Why aren't we discussing why Dale Jr. cost me a fantasy race win by jumping into the wrong groove that last restart?

Craig,

Where is your commentary on the Daytona 500? That is the real news of the day...

Alpha,

Do you have anything meaningful to contribute? You may want to actually want to take a position and use evidence to support it. That is what reasonable, rational people do.

EdVB - I was there between 97 and 03 but not as a student - I'd already graduated - I was, however, working in the Law School. I left there in 2005. I miss USC and hope to go back soon to work.

Rezdog

"BTW, you inferred a tax credit premise as BS. Both plans are mainly about tax credits and community services. "

You are still missing the point. Obama's plan is basically a Cliff Notes cut and paste. Clinton's plan is a well thought out multi-part proposal that could actually be used as the basis for a piece of legislation tomorrow, with completed research and sources for Congressional hearings.

Great point Jamie!

That is what I am saying about this speech. What are his Ideas, not just those that he "borrows" from others?

I recall an interview with Trippi before Edwards dropped out. He joked that Obama's workers followed them around so that they could rip off their ideas.

Oh cut the melodrama, Bear. I only remember that you ARE black when you bring it up. And this statement from you:

"All I have ever asked from anyone I deal with is that if they are going to burn a cross on my lawn, do it without their hood on..."

Puh-leeze.

Okay you asked for some examples from my post:

1. Sexism: Barack referring to Hillary's "tea parties" in the White House. Michelle saying "How can someone run the country if they can't run their own house?" That's the oldest Republican talking point in the world and then she said she wasn't pointing a finger at Hillary.

2. Racism: It is clearly racist to distort comments like Bill Clinton referring to Barack's war votes as a "fairy tail." Immediately Obama people started charging racism, which in itself is racist.

3. Anti-Democratic party: Trying to pander to California Republicans by slobbering over Ronnie Reagan, then changing the meaning. Setting out to specifically discredit the 8 years Bill Clinton was president, then whining when Bill struck back. They called his defending himself racist.

4. Mean spirited: Any number of things, including mentioning that Hillary was likeable....enough. smirk, smirk...

5. Divisive: Saying Hillary's people would vote for him, but not the other was around.

Because I question this you resorted to some of the nastiest, cross-burning crappola I've heard.

The worst sort of racism would be to NOT question Barack Obama as you would any other candidate. THAT would be racist.

And you say this:

"people who have been victims of racism, see their ideas dismissed because they are held to a standard far harsher than others of differing races are held."

And I find it interesting that you say we are dismissing ANYTHING that has happened to women since time began. We've been owned, beaten, stoned, murdered, raped, mutilated and discounted since day one. And it is still going on.

Shirley Chisolm would tell you that.

By Code Breaker: “I'd say Strictland looks pretty different from the Republican he finally beat to get to congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Cremeans”

Frank was a good, strong Democrat when I knew him the most even though we talked several times years later. His entire family had always been strong Democrats. There just aren't that many strong Democrats in SE Ohio, my family is the exception, although they are behind HRC unlike all of us in Central Ohio. Frank was also a good person, but it was Bob Evans (you know…down on the farm) who influenced him with his politics and the money that came with that influence. Frank died of Lou Gehrig’s disease a few years ago. There was a lot of dirty politics that went on from “both sides” when Strickland and Cremeans ran against each other. It was very messy.

I can tell you one thing. If HRC does get the nod and picks Strickland she is probably done. She will need more support than he can bring her.

Jamie wrote:

"Clinton's plan is a well thought out multi-part proposal that could actually be used as the basis for a piece of legislation tomorrow, with completed research and sources for Congressional hearings."

Jamie - thanks for continuing to make this point. It makes me sad that substance continues to fall short - here - on the campaign trail - everywhere.

Obama on Day 1: Sighs...sits down in his chair and leans back, clasps his hands behind his head and says . . . well now what should we do guys.

Hillary on Day 1: Gets her joint chiefs together and advisers starts putting together the withdrawal from Iraq, Introduces her heath care bill, introduces a bill to create 5 mil green collar jobs, introduces a new GI Bill of Rights, increases Pell grants, introduces a bill to better fund community colleges...and the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Yes...congress will have their crack at all of these but at least she's ready to go and ready to fight for it.

Wendy,

I figured it was worth asking. Both kids worked at various jobs in the school, but they weren't near the law school as far as I know. They also both worked on the yearbook, so I had about six years of SC yearbooks around here until this Christmas, when we did some housecleaning and the kids decided to take theirs home with them.

Woo Hoo Patsi

Okay if I steal that an file it away for future use? Credit of course will be given.

Wow, Patsi, you must have really struck a nerve. Bear's comments were so sexist and racist they appeared to have been channeled from His Wonderfulness himself. And Bear, this contemptuous attitude is exactly what will cost Obama the general election, assuming he gets the nomination, because all those republicans who are crossing over and providing him all those victories in red states like Idaho and Alabama will be voting for McCain.

And MessyMarcy, they'll be followed by Democrats who would never vote for Hillary.

You go Patsi!

I completely agree. Women have suffered just as much as blacks. In today's world, we are still discriminated against. It is still ok to call a woman a bitch or slut. Women are still characterized as too weak to hold important public office such as president. It is so sad that a "reformer" such as Obama contributes to that negative dialogue on women.

The most interesting thing in the Dem primary are the demographics. White men vote for Obama in larger numbers. What do men find so threatening about women? What do they fear?

Hillary's plan on Day 1: Where's Bill?

Yep Jan, I forgot about the official enslavement of women until 1865. I missed that history lesson.

Alpha,

So, let me see if I understand you: Hillary is only a person if she is defined by her husband? What a bunch of sexist BS!

Alpha,

Apparently, you have forgotten that black men got to vote before women.

Also, let's not forget that we do not live in the past. We live in the here and now. Since you are a man, you have no clue what women are going through. Do not preach what you do not know!

Jamie-

Then, to conclude this back and forth, logically;

if Hillary gets elected and implements her plan as written , my neighbor and his wife gets a $3500 tax credit for their kid's college costs OR if BO gets the job and his plan through, they get a $4000 credit.?

No brainer!

Yes, Alpha, I'm sure you and Bear and some of your like-minded friends will be unable to ever vote for Hillary Clinton or any old white woman. The question is which is the larger group -- young, way too full of themselves guys who hate women, or women who are not willing to vote for someone who has spent the better part of his campaigning insulting and denigrating them? I think when you add in the republicans who are only voting or caucusing for him in order to elect the person they view as the weakest candidate, Obama loses.

Karo,

Why don't you debate the issues instead of attacking people. BTW, I have been reading this blog for some time. For a long time, it was consumed by Obama supporters.

So, yeah, it is time that HRC people stood up for what they believe in.

I am always amazed how Obama people cannot listen to opinions other than their own.

Indeed, that seems to also be a problem with Obama himself.

Karolenna, calm down. Obama would not be proud of your being so periodically, you know, emotional and all.

Linda, thanks, I didn't see that typo. I appreciate it!

Patsi,

I have yet to hear anyone dismiss your ideas, or those of Hillary Clinton's ideas because she is a woman. I dismiss them because I recognize that in the political climate which she seeks to live in, she will not be able to get much passed.

1. Sexism: If you were going to accuse him of being sexist, this would be a better argument...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-stabiner/the-change-candidate-need_b_87104.html
With your standard, it's ok for Mr. McCain or Mr. Clinton to make flippant comments but not Mr. Obama...right the empty tone candidate...

2. The main stream media were responsible for that distortion. I thought it a non issue when I watched the entire quote played on Countdown. When Pres. Clinton made other comments in that state that Lee Atwater and Jesse Helms smile, I guess 70% of America was being overly sensitive... I agree with you...it is racist for a black man to be pissed that someone who made their political career catering to the black voting bloc was now using it as a negative...

3. Anti-Democratic party: Perhaps you should read this explaination of Triangulation. Notice the person creditied as being more Republican than republicans was Bill Clinton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics)...

4. Mean spirited: Speaking highly of someone is far worse than distorting their record on issues...I agree...maybe he should have just come out and said that if he were married to Hillary he would be faithful to her instead...right...that would be mean spirited too...

I was simply following Newtons laws of physics when responding to your points of crapola...

Were woman treated badly in this country? Yes. Why did it happen, because women just sat there and took it...it's not what they call you but what you answer to that counts...

that quote is from Donna Brazile's grandmother.

The one important thing to focus on is that all of Obama's transgressions were of his own voice, his own doing...all of Hillary's are of her surrogates doing. I am much more worried about someone who can't control what others do in her name...at least she knows what it's like to be Allah or Jesus...

You go MessyMarcy!

This is an issue of gender on this board. There are men who will never vote for a woman. They want to villify Hillary, but the reality is that all women threaten their fragile egos and masculinity.

Hey MessyMarcy,

I'm going to let you in on a secret. We've been voting for white people for president, without much protest, for about around.... FOREVER!

Here is a song to celebrate all the fighting between the Obama and Clinton supporters. It makes each candidate better prepared for the Republicans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEX_rP-4HYI&feature=related

Although there is "blood on the streets" right now. I suspect the wounds will heal quickly. On matters of substance, I agree with people on this board far more than with my GOP friends.

Well, as much fun as this has been, I am off to put my passion into action for HRC. I am going to make calls for her. Go Hillary!

Karolenna:

I do have a job and fit in very nicely with Mr. Obama's so called college educated, upper middle class demographic. Still voted for and will vote for Hillary!

Sorry.

:-D

Messy Marcy,

I would vote for a flaming pile of dog poop before I voted for a Republican in this election.

I would vote for Hillary were she the nominee. She just isn't my first choice.

Apparently stating that point makes me sexist, elitist, defeatist, a communist...I however think of myself as a realist... I think Hillary Clinton ran an arrogant campaign because she thought it would be done on Super Tuesday. Obama didn't. She thought she could focus on the big states and everything else would fall in line. Obama went with a small state strategy and effectively fought hard in each state.

Good to know that Bill said she is running on a shoestring. How do you waste away $140 Million dollars? Even George W. Bush has to work a little at wasting away that kind of money with nothing to show for it.

I would vote for Ella Grasso, may she rest in peace.
I would vote for Barbara Boxer... were I old enough, Geraldine Ferarro in 1984. I'm not a huge fan but I would vote for Dianne Feinstein and think she would make a VP short list were Obama the nominee...

Patsi

Bravo! One of the most passionate & accurate statements expressed to date. It needed to be said
& you had the courage to say it.

Would be proud to stand with you anytime.

All elections really come down to who you like- that can be linked to issues, but the reality is, few will vote for someone they dislike.

Bear has expressed what many here have previously said- they will gladly and readily vote for HC in November- over any republican. That does not make him sexist.

But right now, she is not the first choice. There is not a huge difference in policy between the two- and any proposed polices will be sifted through Congress.

michelle obama:
"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,” she told a Milwaukee crowd today, i know......just words ....wheres the outrage????

michelle obama:
"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,” she told a Milwaukee crowd today, i know......just words ....wheres the outrage????

"I'm not a huge fan but I would vote for Dianne Feinstein and think she would make a VP short list were Obama the nominee..."

Goodness I hope not - was a huge Feinstein supporter - HUGE voted for her for Governor of California - voted for her for senate - her voting record is HORRIBLE. Boxer yes - Feinstein no.

Feinstein broke my heart - will never cast another vote for her.

I saw Hillary's speeches for myself - and it is quite clear what she is doing. She is trying to neutralize "inspiration" - because she can not even come close to Obama on this score.
Posted by: warren | February 18, 2008 1:46 PM

Those uppity women. Don't they know their place? Hillary should be ironing his shirts.

Jan, Jan, Jan!

You'd like to portray Obama supporters as people who hate women. Not at all. I disagree that Hillary's the best person for this job. I don't want the drama (short a) of more Clinton years. I tend to look forward than back. But none of that means I'm sexist.

And btw, I'm SURE that I know more about the history of women in this country than you. You don't know my background because of that great thing called Internet anonymity, but if this were Jeopardy, I think I could run the category. Now that doesn't mean I know what it means to be a woman, in the same as you don't know what it means to be black. But do me this one favor: Don't assume I put anyone down for being a woman, and I won't assume you do the same because of my skin color.

Bear,

You are totally free to disagree with anyone, but when you say "racism" just because you disagree then that is a betrayal.

If you want someone to not see the "color of skin" rather than the "content of character", then don't fall back on the color of skin for the reason that they see a flaw in that character.

One of the really, really good things about spending a lot of time in a home that was almost a miniature United Nations, you get to dislike anyone you want when they displease you. You also get to love anyone you want even when you disagree with their ideas.

You ladies seem to be creating the gender issue because you have adopted the bunker mentality of femmes vs. the mens...

I want to vote for the person who has run the best candidate and makes me the most engaged in the process...she doesn't fit my criteria.

It's ironic that the Republican primary was a far more civilized affair than the Democratic side.

It would be nice to know how many on here actually have a job and work."

Cut the snottiness, Karo. Some on here are retired. I work very hard and work from my home, on the computer. Many others work from home. A lot of people check these boards from work. You are about an inch from accusing us of being a bunch of lazy Democrats living on welfare. How Republican

Now we have absolute proof than beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Love Feinstein
Horribly disappointed in Boxer

lol

Bear wrote:

"I want to vote for the person who has run the best candidate and makes me the most engaged in the process"

Bear after all that's been said in the last little bit - this is something we can agree on. For me, however, Hillary is the one for me.

Wendy,

I agree with your take on Feinstein...since she was mayor of San Fran, she really made a right turn. Boxer's voting record is more in line with where I would like it to be...and she's a looker too which doesn't hurt...

If Obama were the nominee, I can't help but think he goes to Richardson to be the VP on the ticket. That way if McCain took Pawlenty, it would be a real regional throwdown for the general.

michelle obama:
"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,” she told a Milwaukee crowd today, i know......just words ....wheres the outrage????

Michelle Obama to Katie Couric when asked if she would support Clinton if she were the nominee:

"I would have to think about it."

Barack Obama, "Her backers would vote for me". "I don't know if my people would vote for her".

You want unity. You better preach unity.

Jamie

LOL

We need to discuss. I respect you very much and am interested in your view on both Boxer and Feinstein - I'm still in CA. I assume their names will be on my ballot many times over moving forward. We must discuss.

He got people to buy into this plan - even if it was against their own interests.

This is what Obama is doing.

- Warren

Well Warren I can't really disagree with your assessment.

I don't think I have a bunker attitude (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong)... but at least admit that the coverage has been decidedly anti-female at best...

another thing that's bugged me since this morning.. I'm assuming (because it was a verrrry busy weekend for me and MSNBC was running prison doc after prison doc (wtf???)) that Hillary made some appearances this weekend??? SOMEWHERE???? ALL PMSNBC has been showing is Bill pointing at that guy, and saying what he did to those PRO-tell-your-neighbour-what-to-do ppl (good for you, Bill!). This isnt what I mean by anti-female.. it's just SO uneven. Show Bill pointing his finger, show Obama soaring to new heights with "yes we can." What utter bullshit (and i'm NOT anti-Obama.. I'd be pleased if he won the nomination).

"Were woman treated badly in this country? Yes. Why did it happen, because women just sat there and took it...it's not what they call you but what you answer to that counts...

that quote is from Donna Brazile's grandmother."

And if you believe it, then there's no further discussing it. God love Donna's granny. But I don't think I'll be calling her to counsel a rape victim any time soon.

No, Bear. Your totally out of line comments to Patsi accusing her of needing to buy a gun because she was afraid of you, an AA male are what makes you sexist and racist.

There's something you and Obama need to keep in mind -- woman don't tend to stay in abusive relationships; and his contemptuous attitude toward women, particularly older women and (from your words) even more particularly older white women definitely constitute an abusive attitude. I have consistently voted Democratic for years, but I will not vote for someone who directs such venom toward women, anymore than you would vote for someone who was really racist. And there's the real problem with Obama -- he needed to peel away Hillary's support from the AA community in order to have any chance to win the nomination. The only way he could achieve that was to falsely accuse her of racism. I don't know if this will propel him to victory in the battle, but it definitely will cause him to lose the war.

If anyone is interested, there are posts on mydd.com and taylormarsh.com further addressing attacks by Obama supporters.

Alpha

"more Clinton years"

If you cannot see Hillar Clinton as anything other than an extension of her husband, then you are sexist. Plain and simple. Did anyone ask Margaret Thatcher what Dennis would be doing while she was running the country?

Anything Bill MIGHT be doing is at this point pure imagination. I'm sure she will find a way to keep him busy. If he gets into mischief, she can send him back to the house in New York.

Of course EuroTom - you know me better than myself. I forgot I am just a beer-drinking misogynistic woman hater - and I like Obama cause he is good at basketball and talk cool.

This is why you people continue to lose general elections to the Republicans. EuroTom - your superiority complex causes you to constantly underestimate and deneigrate your opponents - and that just doesn't fly with Middle America. No matter how smart you sound.

alpha

are you better off now or at the end of the clinton years

Let me correct that quote...my apologies for the bad sentence structure...

The first half of the statement...""Were woman treated badly in this country? Yes. Why did it happen, because women just sat there and took it" were my words...

it's not what they call you but what you answer to that counts... is from her grandmother...

I am glad you brought this up because what is the best online resource for locating resources for battered women? When I was in Rhode Island, I had my fraternity raise money for a place called Sympatico, which aided battered women. I would anonymously donate to them until I moved to TX.

I know someone who is having issues with her estranged husband and we would like to get an escape plan in place ASAP...any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

REZDOG

They will only get that $4,000 tax credit if it gets through Congress and they make enough to be able to deduct a $4,000 credit.

Ditto for Hillary's $3,500 and the Pell Grant and the Community College support system, and the paid job of community service, and the student loans, and the at least ten other components she has proposed.

Remember 1 paragraph vs. 6 pages.

Zilch on any of it if it doesn't get through Congress so you better elect more Democrats.

alpha, what is your profession?

"Hillary Clinton and Obama each spent about $130,000 in Michigan while Obama spent $1.3 million in Florida--more than any other Democratic candidate and more than eight Republican candidates, who were eligible to win delegates from the state."

Guess we can put to rest the notion of Obama not campaigning in Florida.

myDD quotes some other fun facts here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/18/101423/027

how gome no one complains when Michelle obama saiy she couldn't vote for hilary.I'm from Ill.and when BO ran for Senate he ran against Allen Keyes who came from out of state then left when he lost.There are too many crooked pols in Chicago and BO is part of the machine.I don't see where he did anything for state of Ill.And his wife got fancy job when he got elected.

michelle obama:
"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,” she told a Milwaukee crowd today, i know......just words ....wheres the outrage????

Euro Tom

Read your friend's "Brenda" piece. Well said, expressing what many women (myself included) believe--- now is the time for women. This opportunity may not come around again for quite some time.

Wendy

Watch their voting records and who's up next for election. It's really fun. In the year before a Feinstein election she does all sorts of sponsorships and star turns with committees. When it is Boxer who is up next, she gets to display all the concern and competence. On positions Feinstein is more conservative and militant while Boxer is more touchy feeley and freebies. Feinstein does military goodies to California and Boxer does Social programs to California. Then the ladies double team like mad to keep getting elected repeatedly.

Bear

What State

There are several national groups but the State would help

"I know someone who is having issues with her estranged husband and we would like to get an escape plan in place ASAP...any suggestions are greatly appreciated."

Go get her out now, Bear. Or send somebody. Call the WYCA and they will give you the name of a shelter. These things escalate wheter talking about husbands, ex-husbands or others. I've got a dead sister to prove it.

Any male out there that loves a woman, certainly has seen sexism affect that woman at some point in time in their life, whether it's your mother, your daughter or your girlfriend / wife or sister.

I can only hope that you tried to help the situation by, first, acknowledging the truth of it and second by attempting not to be sexists toward women yourself in your day to day life.

I just think Hillary's idea of being President is too much like Bush's. It is based on having a partisan President use the "bully pulpit" to beat the other side into submission.

And all this talk of ideas and particulars. Senators write legislation and fight the partisan battles on the Senate floor. There, all of the tactics Clinton is so good at - can be used effectively.

The President is supposed to stay above it all and lead the American People. The President needs to rally support for the basic ideas behind a policy. The President also needs to set the tone on Foreign Policy.

Again, we can disagree over the particulars, but Obama can run as a stronger anti-war candidate than Hillary. He can articulate why this war should not have been fought and how we need to change the mindset that got us there.

He can start engaging in diplomacy immediately - and trust me - after 7 years of Bush - there is no time to waste. He will be backed with a solid team that I suspect may include Biden, Richardson, Dodd and maybe even Bill.

I even think there is a chance he could get Colin Powell to come out in support of some of his policies - what would the GOP say in the face of that. Plenty - but America wouldn't listen.

And btw - there is no way to realistically lay out a detailed Foreign Policy right now. The particulars depend too much on the facts on the ground - and we are still a long way away from Jan. 2009. But what Obama can do - it signify to the world and the Middle East that America is going to end the Bush Doctrine and the politics of fear.

Bear

Give me a break.

Obama is creating the gender issue by not keeping his people under control.
His Co-campaign manager Jesse Jackson Jr said some thing far worse than any thing some people on the edges of the Clinton campaign and he didn't even get a mild scolding.
HRC had the guts to fire Shehan and issued a personal face to face apology to Obama.

Obama's Playing the racial identity politics, like the South side polititian, he is has let him garner 80% of the African /American vote. I don't think he had to do it. By playing it upright he would have gotten the same numbers.
He has isolated himself to two power groups with in the democratic party , He gets the A-A vote and the Anti Hillary wing nuts.
This isolates him he really needs the enthusiastic support of the HRC supporters.
He , also, needs those suburban Independent woman votes and they will vote for McCain just as easy as Obama.

I've been really disappointed in the way he has isolated himself, It doesn't say much for him being a uniter

Jack

Hi Jamie

I'm with you - I have to remember why I sent Feinstein a nasty letter a few years ago and said if she voted yes on something I would never vote for her again...I can't for the life of me remember what it was - I have to go to class but will look it up and let you know what finally was the last straw with Feinstein. (She voted for it in the end). BTW I remember clearly that whatever it was Hillary and Boxer voted no and I was happy.

Yes Mom, you know what best for all of us. lol

Zumper

Thank you for posting that about Mrs. MObama. She has said many things that really startle me. Her comment about thinking long and hard about voting for HRC in November if she is the dem's candidate of choice...is the same type of off hand comments she makes and still is potrayed as the innocent. I think she wants the White House more than the mister.

Here she is well educated lawyer who is working hard for her husband to be elected...hey, she sounds like a young HRC??? Maybe she is suppressing her political desires...a Mrs. Obama for President 2016?

Wendy:

Hillary also announced - days before the votes were cast in FL - that she would be flying into FL on the day of the primary to have a victory party. I am sure this was within the "rules" - but the gamesmanship of the Clinton campaign wears thin after awhile.

Yes - you can point out some politics as usual on Obama's side. If Obama's campaign did not engage - Hillary would have already wrapped up the nomination. But from what I see - Obama is winning on message and electability. Despite some creative arguments to the contrary.

MessyMarcy,

You and Jamie are making statements that prove an underlying point that I am making.

Jamie said earlier, "You are totally free to disagree with anyone, but when you say "racism" just because you disagree then that is a betrayal." I don't make that argument because someone is disagreeing with me. Hardly. I was making that statement because it seemed that his race was a major crux of the point being made.

We can agree to disagree because it is something in the eye of the beholder.

What is disingenuous to me though is that there are posters who think I am crossing a line with sexist rhethoric when I can argue they are doing the same thing crossing the racial hot button.

Marcy. having volunteered at a battered women's shelter, having studied women who were able to claw there way from welfare to meaningful careers, the common denominator in what really impared these women were trying to save relationships that involved abusive men. There is nothing more gratifying to see a woman get out of the relationship once and for all and have the "man" get his just desserts.

Wendy

In line with my post Feinstein and Boxer often split votes on controversial issues as long as it doesn't "totally" betray being Democrats. Fudging around the edges on comments about reasons is allowed.

These ladies are SMART. They have worked out this system. Boxer has always been the one most endangered and it has often been Feinstein that kep her in office. You know how red the east side of the coastal range can be.

What I'm most disappointed in.. ppl inside campaigns and outside..who say they can't possibly support (insert nominee #1 here) if (insert nominee #2) doesnt win... while dems are beating each other up... they're screwing up the best chance they've had for the whitehouse in 8 years... this is a slam-dunk, and for people on either campaign to say they couldnt support the other is just idiotic... hold yer nose if you have to but sweet jesus, people.. havent the past 8 years taught us anything???

Since the MSM are so biased against the Clintons and the media led by MSNBC worship at the alter of Obama without any consequence, "Yes we can WHAT?" will not be a topic for the media. I have stopped watching all MSNBC/NBC news programming and have sent many emails to the networks about their media bias. It seems the elite MSM has usurped our democracy by coup d’état and will have no other than Saint Obama and the media will use their clout in ever more reprehensible ways to secure this outcome.

Bear my Dear,

I have found all of your posts powerful and insightful today. Thank you!

We don't discuss this sort of thing here, but are you aware of the lawsuit filed last week against Obama, Axelrod and the DNC? I'm not trying to get this into the discussion, so please don't scream at me. The allegations have been out there for awhile, easy to find. Anyone can say anything, but now it's in the legal system. Could be trouble for Obama - remember Paula Jones.

Zumper-I saw Michele Obama in Larry King and I thought she left a lot to be desired. With Bill we know what we are getting, with Michele Obama not so much.

Warren wrote:

"having a partisan President use the "bully pulpit" to beat the other side into submission."

yea...see I'm not sure the evidence supports this. She has been praised by colleagues in the Senate including republicans for working across the aisle to get things done.

This comes from the Obama rhetoric - "...hollering at republicans..."

yes that's a direct quote from Mr. Obama.

Just because Obama says it doesn't make it true.

On the diplomacy question - I again have to respectfully disagree. In this campaign Obama has shown a great deal of hubris and immaturity - both qualities that can make diplomacy difficult. This is just my point of view and I realize you see something different in him.

Warren also wrote:

"signify to the world and the Middle East that America is going to end the Bush Doctrine and the politics of fear."

See and I believe that Hillary will be able to do the same. The world has much fonder feeling about Hillary than some here in the US.

You make good arguments Warren but Obama is not the ONLY candidate with these qualities. He is the ONLY candidate without any real experience or detailed plans which is why I support Hillary.

You know, Bear, there was an front page article in our local paper about an Hispanic woman who was upset that her dream candidates were running against each other...she so much wanted a woman and so much wanted a black man. Maybe she is sexist and maybe she is racist, I do not know. She was just so disappointed that both HRC and BHO were running at the same time and against each other.

I really am still hoping for a dream team and then we can stop this bickering as we all will get "our" way.

Jack writes: "He , also, needs those suburban Independent woman votes and they will vote for McCain just as easy as Obama."

That is so true. So many of the women I know, don't really need the "hope" stuff . They are most interested in not having this war get more out of control, and possibly having their children drafted. They have expressed that OBAMA is like a "green banana" in foriegn policy and it would be risky to put him in as POTUS.

btw "green banana" is not a racist term

Bear, the more you post the more offensive you get. Do you really believe this *&#@ that you just posted: "The first half of the statement...Were woman treated badly in this country? Yes. Why did it happen, because women just sat there and took it' were my words..."

If you will substitute "African Americans" for "woman" (sic) in your statement, you might be able to see just how untrue and obnoxious such sentiments are. Surely you can make a better argument than "Blame the Victim." You truly do your candidate proud.

Bear

That is fair. I prefer Clinton to Obama because I believe that she would be the best President.

You prefer Obama to Clinton because you believe that he would be the best President

If you don't mention anything about her that refers to her sex or her position relative to some man, I won't mention anything about him that in any way refers to his complexion.

Can I talk about his "streets of Chicago" techniques?
We've been accused of using "code words" :-)

Sheila
I personally found one of Bears posts to be extremely offensive. We should be able to argue facts without name calling at that level, IMO

Jack

Warren wrote:

"Yes - you can point out some politics as usual on Obama's side. If Obama's campaign did not engage - Hillary would have already wrapped up the nomination."

This is very typical - Obama is only politics as usual because of Hillary - not because he has surrounded himself with people that have been doing this for years and years and years and know what it takes to win a campaign.

I don't care about politics as usual - that's BOs shtick - I'm just calling him out on his hypocrisy - just admit that this is the way you win a campaign and move on with your bad self.

He is no different than Hillary except she has more experience, a better record and a detailed plan to move the country forward. That's why I support Hillary.

Question is :Why is the MSM not scrubbing this pos-
sible nominee NOW. We have two great candidates
from which to choose. Information would help us in
the process of making final choice. The Rezko trial
starts in March. How will it impact upon Sen. Obama,
should he be the nominee, in the general election?
There are many questions that have not been asked?
Check: http://rezkowatch.blogspot.com
We need to vote with our heads. It is an election the
Republicans are going to "fight" to win, no matter what!
MSM needs to do some straight up reporting on the issues. Stop cheerleading for " their favorite".

Coreen, et al, I actually hadn't considered what Barack would be facing if he was a "Brenda". When I read her blog, it was a real eye opener for me. I have sent her a note via Wendy's suggestion that she contact Huffpo to publish the article.

I bought Nancy's book: "Dear Violet: Letter From a Desert Grave" . Here is a very short review for those interested:

"Dear Violet: Charlie loves you!, August 26, 2007
By Thomas Freeman (Ghent Belgium) - See all my reviews

"Dear Violet - letter from a Desert Grave" is a short novel brilliantly written by N. Sigafoos from Olympia Washington. The story is about a woman who is sent to Iraq and is killed. The writing is done from the consciousness of the dead woman, Charlie Day, whose one big joy in her life has been her love for Violet. Although dead, Charlie tells her story and refuses to leave until Violet knows the extent of her love. In the process, the book provides an indictment of war and particularly the war in Iraq, and the senseless loss of life. But really, the story is about surviving against odds, finding love, doing one's job and offering a glimpse of life from the afterlife.

The book is not long, but the writing is witty, engaging, thought provoking, and uplifting. It's a book that everyone should read, and it is available from [...]. Oh and for those who do not relish the thought of trudging through a long, complicated book, it is neither. It can, in fact, be read in an afternoon sitting, perhaps sipping coffee or tea. It's a must read, and one that the politicians who love war should read VERY carefully. "

You can find the book on Amazon if anyone is interested.

Tom

Jamie,

I am down here in Fort Worth, TX...

Jack,

How about you give me a break. All I have ever said about Obama is I like him more. I don't like Hillary Clinton. I would vote for her if I had to, but I don't like her.

I didn't like the pissing match between Obama and Clinton and that is why I decided I would vote for Edwards when the time came.

AGAIN, I LIKE BILL CLINTON. The Clinton's can't stand the fact that some upstart deigned to run against them. They hate the fact that the upstart is running a better organized, better funded campaign than they are.

Obama could be Osama II the electric boogaloo, the devil, hell he could be the never ending Manning brother killing a Patriots season...I don't care. In the primary, that person will get my vote before her. If she is the nominee, she gets it after... at this point, HRC winning the nomination is like the little league coach who makes his kid the starting pitcher and cleanup hitter, not because he practiced the best, but because it was his kid...

You "principled" folks are more concerned with being right than with winning. I'll go with the person trying to winning instead of waiting for it to be given to them...

Jack,

I can dish it out and I can take it...seem smallish to speak about others offending without doing it directly. You want to take it offline, email gedpik@hotmail.com

With regards to Mrs. Obama, if you feel slighted an offended by what another candidate said...it should take you some thought to vote for them...

Just think what Romney will have to do to actually vote for McCain in November. How long did it take McCain to actually vote for Bush?

Steven

I am with you on the NSNBC/NBC firing....I only watch when Craig is on...but keep an "eye" on them with my Direct TV news mix.

And Craig, when will you next appear? I feel they are boycotting you.

As to the Obama lawsuit - another crack-pot - just like the jerk that said Bill Clinton hit him.

ugh - going back to real reasons why Obama is not a good candidate for president.

The devil is in the details Wendy. For the most part - we agree more than we disagree. I think Obama's campaign a new type of politics that will focus on agreements rather than arguments. People working together instead of acting like lawyers arguing a case. And I think you will come around once Obama is able to make many of Clinton ideas a reality. And the Clinton campaign need to stop acting like children: "These are our ideas - go find your own."
Politicians SHOULD be sharing ideas if they are doing their jobs. Those ideas belong to the American people - the Clintons don't have a copyright on them.

Sheila
I personally found one of Bears posts to be extremely offensive. We should be able to argue facts without name calling at that level, IMO

Jack

Posted by: whskyjack | February 18, 2008 5:57 PM

Jack,

I believe for once, "Walk A Mile In My Shoes" might be a sound statement for Bear.....besides, my friend, How can you say that when you know there have been some seriously nasty stuff go unchecked by people here.

I mean, I know more than a few that have been outraged. So "Open an eye or two. Might have been outrageous and uncomfortable for you, but who would know more by his experience....

AND frankly, I've never known Bear to be anything but sincere and integral.

Marcy,

Blame the victim is pervasive in this country. Heck, if you look at the way government looks at entitlements, you can see it manifest itself on a daily basis.

My statement may offend you can you explain to me why the cause of ending slavery gained traction sooner than women's suffrage?

While the Constitution specifically ban women's voting rights, it did codify slavery. I don't recall any Supreme Court decision that codified women as property...unless they were slaves.

I for one am fascinated at the political forces that felt that slavery was a blight on the morality of this country. Even after it was officially abolished, how many more years of Jim Crow did black suffer? When given the opportunity to fight for freedom, black men and women seized the chance.

I didn't study the suffrage movement so I don't know any of the history behind it. All I can say is that it was a much slower bus moving

You think its crap, that's your opinion. If someone would like to explain why my ideas of the evolution of voting rights for these 2 groups is wrong, please educate me, I would appreciate it.

Warren

I am going to take you to task on this statement --

"I even think there is a chance he could get Colin Powell to come out in support of some of his policies - what would the GOP say in the face of that. Plenty - but America wouldn't listen."

Isn't that the same Colin Powell who LIED to the American people about reasons to go to war in Iraq to push forward the phony war policy of Cheney and Bush?

If you read this blog for any length of time, you pretty much know who is consistantly repectful of others. They may disagree, but they are not out to be offensive, and this idea of blanket insults to BO people or HRC people is just plain childish.

Warren:

I can find many instances of Obama acting like a kid as well.

Again - we do agree I think - we just disagree on who can deliver on it.

You and I always come to the place. But I do like our conversations.

And Bear,

You DO shock the crap out of us at times, But HEY! This Blog has been a Shock Blog for some time so fight the good fight buddy!

"Isn't that the same Colin Powell who LIED to the American people"

I was going to bring this up too wino. It is worth noting.

I have to leave to go cook dinner.

I don't want you to think I am being provocative just for giggles. There is a great movement that is afoot. The problem with the movement is which foot wants to make the final step.

Some like the left foot, some like the right...fine...I would be happy if the legless body of this movement is still able to drag itself over the finish line first.

If I am being too naive or too self agrandizing for having that viewpoint, oh well...I just want my side to win. The fear I have is that when push comes to shove, my team will not play its best and they will lose and I can't handle that.

Yes Blondie - and it is the same Colin Powell who still has the respect of the millitary, many elected officials and a ton of Americans. It is of course ironic you are willing to bring up Powell's mistakes on Iraq - but ask people to look past Hillary's mistakes. Oh - I forgot - she still has not admitted it was a mistake. State of Denial - anyone...

Be careful what you wish for. I am not sure you all know! Listen closely and try to comprehend and you will say - What did he say? The answer - NOTHING!

OK - really going to school now

Tonight - the women of the Beat generation!

I won't go into details because the misogyny and sexism topic has been beaten to death today.

TTYL

Wendy:

I thought you had to go to class.

Wendy,

If you do a google search, someone just did a study on the major lies told by the Bush administration and Colin Powell ranks 3rd behind the Vice President and Cheney...

I forget who it was , Spike Lee or someone of his stature in an interview once called Colin Powell an "Uncle Tom".

Wendy...I think you have a lot of class.

I don't completely disregard someone or cast their opinions to the side because of transgressions in their past. Where will Bill Clinton be if we all adopted that philosophy. We know Bill told a bald-faced "lie" to us - we know Colin Powell presented information that subsequently was found to be untrue.

Colin Powell was a voice a caution against Bush and Cheney and was the last to hop on the Iraq bandwagon - but at the end of the day - he was guilty of being loyalist. The Secretary of State is supposed to advocate on behalf of the policy of the President - not set out his own agenda.

Bear

Contact "Safe Haven" of Tarrant County

http://www.womensshelter.org/

They can provide information and assistance.

" didn't study the suffrage movement so I don't know any of the history behind it. All I can say is that it was a much slower bus moving"

Uh, maybe it had something to do with the fact that so many of those women were working to end slavery, putting the black cause ahead of their own for years.

Warren

It was you who invoked the name of Colin Powell.

I find it amusing that Senator Clinton is criticized by some Obama supporters for having "detailed proposals". FDR would get a chuckle out of that.
At least this is a concession that Obama avoids substance as a strategy.

Yup - and I still respect and listen to Powell's views on Foreign Policy. I am not saying you have to wholeheartedly agree with the man - but if you simply ignore him - you do yourself a disservice.

Warren

I forgot you are an attorney..

"presented information that subsequently was found to be untrue" I guess that is not a lie?

A falsehood? Lack of conformity with truth or fact?

Geez...getting dizzy here.

Bear, let me be sure I understand what you are saying. You believe that women have been treated badly in this country, but it happened because women just sat there and took it?

And then you say that you have volunteered in a battered woman's shelter? What is wrong with this picture? Did you share your belief with the victims that they were the ones at fault?

And you failed to address my request that you substitute African Americans for women in your theory. Is any group that has suffered abuse and discrimination at fault for "sitting there and taking it" or is it just women for whom you believe this to be true?

And Clinton's lie brought him up on impeachment charges...but, Powells lie only killed thousands of people?

Yep, I am glad you brought him up.

Bear is only one person trying to win? If I read your statement correctly, you are saying Hillary is "waiting for [the nomination] to be given to [her]? Am I misunderstanding?

Karolenna,
You need to reread my comments. I hate being misquoted. I NEVER SAID I was close to him. I said I listened to his State of the State speech. I am very interested in anything the state or federal govt can do for kids who want to go to college and their parents.
As for Stickland being more republican than democrat, guess we will have to disagree with that. I voted for him and I think he is doing a good job with what he has to work with, a Bush administration.
I feel Hillary is the only candidate who can turn the tide. YES, ONE reason is she is a woman and I do believe women do have a different mind set than men do. Not saying it is good or bad just different.

Karolenna,
You need to reread my comments. I hate being misquoted. I NEVER SAID I was close to him. I said I listened to his State of the State speech. I am very interested in anything the state or federal govt can do for kids who want to go to college and their parents.
As for Stickland being more republican than democrat, guess we will have to disagree with that. I voted for him and I think he is doing a good job with what he has to work with, a Bush administration.
I feel Hillary is the only candidate who can turn the tide. YES, ONE reason is she is a woman and I do believe women do have a different mind set than men do. Not saying it is good or bad just different.

"It would be nice to know how many on here actually have a job and work."
--Karolenna
_______

What's up with Karolenna's drumbeat today of wanting to know who "works"? I really don't understand why that would be of concern to anyone.

JFTR...after 30 years in the workforce, I am officially retired...whoodeehoo!!!

Blondie:

I don't know what Colin Powell actually knew or was told when he gave his presentation at the UN. If I knew that he lied to us - I would say it - but I don't.

I know Bill Clinton "lied." No debate about that.

And I say this as a lawyer because I have defended against plenty of false charges in my days. Some lawyers make a living out of them.

You know..I'm beginning to suspect that this person ,supposedly called Warren, is actually a Republican posing as an Obama supporter.

Who got hurt by Billy Boy not telling the truth. Who cares! Look who else was fooling around when he was

OD:

Nope - I am a registered Independent.

Bush and crew have been not telling us the truth for years and have been getting away with it

And I support Obama because I think he presents the best way forward for this country and has the best chance to win in the general.

I am not some covert double agent. You Clinton supporters can be pretty paranoid sometimes.

Well I am going to go back to bed. I woke up for no particular reason.. nasty cold ... grrrrr As a business owner with a franchise, I have to work sick or not.

I am going to close with a thought... most of the people here are good, hardworking, caring people. We get wrapped up in our passion for politics and advocacy for our candidates. With perhaps an exception or two, I think most of us would be really good friends if we lived close by each other and stand together against the injustices and tyranny we have experienced with the republicans over the past nearly 8 years. I don't know, maybe I am feeling sentimental, but I felt like reminding us all of that.

Both sides are feeling frustration and anger because we are facing two amazing "firsts" in this nomination process and we want our candidate to get the nomination. The devil is in the details, but I suspect that neither Hillary nor Barack are so far off on the issues. I still believe strongly that a tag-team of Clinton/Obama (my preference) or Obama/Clinton will bring us all together... I hope... In this way, neither women nor people of color will have to deal with the a heartbreaking "loss" after the nomination is wrapped up.

I am giving my "mea culpa" here from when I was so pissed I said I would vote for McCain. so not true. If we could discuss with an eye on understanding where we come from on our Earth walk, we can feel a lot better I think.

The intensity of this political process makes us stumble, but I think most of us are allies.

Time for St. Thomas to hit the hay.

What Colin Powell did was far worse than what Billy Boy did.

vadaryl:

Clinton got hurt. He damaged his credibility.

So he hurt himself, what Bush did is far worse.

Ahh, the old Clinton argument - "you're just as bad as us." They need to get with the program. That is so yesterday.

we could argue that Clinton got hurt, but Bush hurt the world. I have just been advised to take lots of echinecia (which I have), lots of rest.. and swear off this blog for 48 hours! :-) ... I will give it a try...

Goodnight all...

Today are we suffering because Biilly hurt is credibility.

TOM! You Crack me UP!

Go to Bed, you have work tomorrow. ;0)

one more thing... I want to see some PICTURES of the participants here... It would be nice to have a face to go along with the words... If you want to be scared off, mine is on my blog http://eurotom.blogspot.com/ or at Myspace http://www.myspace.com/eurotom

Sheila's a chef AND a nun? You have TWO jobs?!

If Billy's credibility is so hurt why does Daddy Bush always want to be around him.

Corey,

According to Patsi and so I thought I would take up the mantle.

Besides, being a private chef is really like being a Nun too. No Life of my own. ;0)

You see, making money supports my celibacy.... ;0)

Oh , kinda like when Gary Coleman said last week that his wife was his "First"? The interviewer asked. "So you were saving yourself for marriage?" "No exactly." Replied Gary Coleman.

Make that "Not exactly."

more like.........slave......High Maintenance Master.

So Corey,

how's home? It going to down to about 40 or 50 tomorrow morning in PB. I hear your going to get Whomped again or are you being Whomped right now?

Cold and snowing. Maybe up to 9 inches of new snow by tomorrow afternoon.

I miss being home, but not the weather this winter....spent a week home the last of Feb and YUK!

So I hope it decides to get better soon!

oops! Lasst of Jan.

i'm telling you, its Jimmy Carter all over again. McCain is looking like Gerald Ford all over again. Obama'll get elected. Expect a terrible four years, with Romney heralding the 2012 Republican Revival., much like Reagan in 1980. With 24 Senate seats to defend, the Dems'll find it hard in 2012 and probably lose the Senate.

Sounds like a "doubting thomas" to me.

One For You GORDO'

Obama Bought Home Without Rezko Discount, Seller Says (Update1)

By Timothy J. Burger

Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- The couple who sold Barack Obama his Chicago home said the Illinois senator's $1.65 million bid ``was the best offer'' and they didn't cut their asking price because a campaign donor bought their adjacent land, according to e-mails between Obama's presidential campaign and the seller.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a_9sOMpy91Js&refer=us

Well, Keith Olberman and his research skills come through.

Obama didn't plagerize. he and the Gov of Mass Patrick did some sharing.

Simple as that.

Obamania is actually as strong in Europe as in the US. Maybe we can unite…again.

Recent polls show most European countries favor Obama over HRC. The only exception is the UK. It looks like our connection with the rest of the world could be restored with Obama.

http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2008/2/18/16127/3421

“Obama, meanwhile, seems to be appealing to what might be called the new "silent majority." Sure, he's got his share of stage-rushers and Kool-Aid drinkers, but he's also appealed to millions of casual voters—the ones who don't go to his rallies, don't donate to his campaign, but do show up on primary day and check his name off on the ballot. That's the kind of mass casual support that other idol-candidates—Dean four years ago, or, say, Ron Paul this year—never came close to attracting.”…

…”In this sense, he can be likened to Ronald Reagan, who flunked all of the traditional tests of electability in 1980—he was one of the most ideologically extreme candidates ever nominated, he was ignorant of some basic policy details, and he was nearly 70 years old—but whose style, presence and wit connected with the masses and overrode all of those concerns. The term "Reagan Democrat" was born and he won in such an intimidating landslide that his political foes essentially let him enact whatever reforms he wanted for his first few months in office.”

http://www.observer.com/2008/forget-kool-aid-obama-s-support-real?page=0%2C0

One of the first bloggers after this read is a Texan. Interesting what he says.

Hoping that Obama will be better that his share mate Duval P.

The Gov of Mass isn't getting much done even with his Together We Can mantra. His big plan for saving the Commonwealth is to open three casinos. Great campaign lousy execution, and that is with a democratic legislature. But not to worry, if his good friend Obama is elected, he will head for DC ... prediction Attorney General.

Hoping that Obama will be better than his share mate Duval P.

The Gov of Mass isn't getting much done even with his Together We Can mantra. His big plan for saving the Commonwealth is to open three casinos. Great campaign lousy execution, and that is with a democratic legislature. But not to worry, if his good friend Obama is elected, he will head for DC ... prediction Attorney General.

I actually feel bad that Clintons didn't plan that far ahead? Hard to believe.

OH!

Kathy and EPROF!

KO just stated that Gore Consults with Obama on a regular basis!

Gore is not dead yet! he's playing Elder Statesman.

Well you know how much I respect Gore. If he isn't going to run, help another.

So Ironic, But knowing Molly Ivan's as we all did, I do not doubt her conviction.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/02/molly-ivins-endorses-from-heav.php

Molly Ivins endorses from heaven*

By S. L. - February 17, 2008, 10:22PM
I live in Austin. This evening I was talking to my mother on the phone about the election and about which way Texas would go. She and my 77 year old father caucused for Obama in Colorado. We started talking, as we often do, about the late-great Molly Ivins, a Texas icon and one of my mother's and my shared heroines. Molly lost her battle with breast cancer this last year and her wit and clarity are dearly missed.

I said, "I bet Molly would have choice words for Hillary." I had no doubt what side Molly would be on. Like Obama she was a voice of sanity on Iraq from the beginning. And that gave me the incentive to google Molly Ivins and Clinton. This is the first article that popped up. It was written in January 2006, a year before Hillary or Obama had officially announced.

It is titled, "I will not support Hillary Clinton for president"

HRC is the answer
Obamessiah looks like he is being as lucky as his friend Deval "Deville" Patrick... he found out that the "devil is in the details" He is using Monopoly money that may be made by three casinos fro his budget. I do not get the people who think that Obamessiah is such a great orator, all fluff, no substance. I have not seen this kind of CULT since "est" ( remember, everyone else has problems. not you, as in what it is for you it is for you....)
This is akin to the zeal of Scientology....
WAKE UP NOW.... HRC is the answer unless you want John McCain to be President

I think this article is right on the money regarding Barack's lack of specificity. I am waiting for the electorate to wake up and realize that regardless of what you think about Hillary on a personal level, she is actually providing us with details of her plans, unlike Mr. Message. Obama is clearly very effective at connecting with people, but that is far from the qualifications needed to run the most powerful country in the world. If the media would start to report more stories like this one, Hillary might be in a better position and other good candidates like Joe Biden and Chris Dodd might still be in the race. Thank you Mr. Crawford for shedding some objectivity on this topic.

(sigh)

My roots are in Austin, and I am well familiar with Molly Ivins' positions on various matters. When Molly stated that she would not support Hillary for president, it was at a time that I didn't think I would ever be able to either. Of course no one can speak for Molly, but don't ever ASSUME she would have supported Obama instead. She might have changed her mind about Hillary (like I did), or might have been outraged at the way the media circus is treating the Clintons (like I am). Molly was a straight shooter and a person of substance who knew issues inside and out. I doubt she would have been easily swayed by a good speech unless she knew there was a lot of detail, history, and knowledge to back it up. Just as she knew about the backroom politics in Texas, she probably would have kept herself abreast of all the Rezko gossip and possibly would have had a fit over Obama's "present" votes. (She didn't like "fence-sitters".) Who knows which candidate she would have supported? Having said that, she might have also been Obama's number one fan—or Edwards. I've learned to never assume "anything" about Molly.

Craig - You are number one on my hero of the week list right now !

Where of where has all the critical and rational thinking in the this country gone lately. In the press it will all suddenly return if Obama becomes the nominee. Nice to see the fourth estate doing their job for a change, much appreciated Craig. Keep up the good work.

The Messiah has spoken ! All he needs to do is say change and it will happen! What change the rivers will part and CAN"T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG will happen. No wars no hunger no money problems no fear no riots no LIARS no divorce no sickness no pain NO WAY!!!!!!! All those followers of the Messiah will be left wondering WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED! Not to worry COME TO OBAMA AND DRINK THE KOOL AID!!! My wise old father always taught me as a kid if it seems to good to be true It probably isn't true. Also to think that Michelle Obama might be the first lady is scary. A women who just said the first time in her adult life she could be really proud of America. WOW! What a self centered b****. Not proud when we stopped a war in Kosovo. Not when we stopped polio. Not when we saved millions of lives in Humanitarian Relief across the globe. WOW and she thinks she should be first lady. PLEASE this Fairy Tale has gone far enough!!