Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Patsi - you win Wo Hooo

Good Morning Craig,

I agree. Last night listening to Bill Clinton in Virginia, talking forward to March and beyond, instead of hope for Virginia....

Well, from one of the best strategists I have ever seen, it could only mean they are going to repeat "Tears" without actually tearing up.

They both are brilliant at the game of politics.

Bad timing to play the whinning card as it could shift all the MO to BO. Could this be the turning point?
I have not looked at the remainder of states for the Dems - this is the most important aspect not the Beltway.
and for Craig to say that "this time, they might be right" regarding the demise of HRC - that is telling

one sexist commnent - or not
Is this what you will get with a women President.

I am sorry but this is not very Presidential -

If indeed she does the Tears for Votes as a strategy- this time it back fires

Ping,

I don't think she would. I think they are rallying the troups for one last push,

But in Politics, a publisized injection of 5 million plus a campaign shuffling with the Senior Campaign Manager and "no pay for they day" is serious. Damage control will be important to gain momentum again.

Time for work. TTFN

I actually don't even know what you all are talking about. I haven't heard a whine.

And Ping -- that old "tears" thing is bogus. Twice she seemed to show emotion -- no crying involved. I have seen boatloads of male politicians show emotions.

She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. She's either a cold and calculating old broad, or a weeping weak sister.

If I framed this much stuff about Obama as the black candidate I'd be killed as a racist.

Patsi... I am responding to Craigs lead. And I agree with men taking a position they are called strong, with women (some women) they are called B's.

However if now the crying towel comes out in an effort to play to women voters,,,, she will lose.

And if you are correct Patsi - we will never see this response or action

Why is it whining when the campaign is simply telling the truth that the stage of the campaign is a tough patch. Nonetheless, this will not be a decisive victory for Obama. He is the front runner now -- but just barely. While speaking in Virginia Bill Clinton says he is looking ahead -- and that gives me hope as a Virginia voter. He's not cashing it in in the Chesapeake primary because it will be a bit of a wash -- and we've got March 4 to work toward. Let's Go Hilliary!

It is cold here. I think I saw the "Obama-nible" Snowman this morning!

Kind of a harsh post Craig. there is no one. NO ONE in the media who is fair to Clinton. Not on tv, not online. In the process of twisting facts and trashing her or her husband for things he did NOT do or say or inject, we have to deal with the media royal treatment of Obama.

I've never seen anything like this in my life. We expected the media to treat Hillary like dirt from day one because the media in this country is no class low grade trash. If they ever did their job then Bush would be in prison, etc etc.. but add to this the way ALLLL the media treats Obama, this is just insane.

Just think back to the very first caucus, Iowa, and when he won that the tv media was literally 24/7 saying it was over for Hillary and Edwards .. it was done after one state!!

As for Imus, I haven't listened to him since he was on msnbc as I used to tune in on tv just as I headed off to bed. I think the guy is a scumbag and his constant remarking that Hillary is "hitler" is highly offensive and makes him and his ilk trash in my eyes.

I always found it beyond vile that the media and blacks were throwing a shit fit over one stupid comment made one day and all hell broke loose over that, yet he could say something as offensive as calling Hillary, "hitler" ever day, and no one seemed to give a damn about that.

Then we have Bill Clinton who (along with his wife) have done so much for blacks through theyears but suddenly blacks have amnesia over this now that they have a half black guy running for pres (who's completely unqualified).. then the media goes into their Clinton hate claiming Bill did some thing wrong or racist, when in fact it wasn't racist and was actually factual, (and they still never shut up about it).

We live in one fucked up country. The media at large is doing everything they can to steal this election and any fairness from Clinton, and if she does lose this nomination, I'll support McCain. Then I'll laugh when he drags us into more war. It's just what this screwed up nation deserves.

I'd personally like to see a draft and have the media at large forced to sign up first.

8 years of Bush sheep and now a bunch of freaking Obama sheep.

It's freaking insane.

Craig,
You crossed the line here, and I am going to call you on it.......
"Any outcry from Clinton, or on her behalf, regarding the persistently sexist tone of so-called political commentary, has been brushed aside, dismissed as political correctness run amok, or as the whining of feminists (the second-dirtiest word in American politics, just behind "liberal")."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-obama_thinkjan27,0,1870901.story

all this tears bullshit.. show us one video where she shed tears, just one. more media bullshit and you all help spread the bullshit.

hillary had no intentions of thinking she could win in february. she might be able to pull of wisconsin but they were looking forward to the BIG STATES as well any good campaign should..

only the bias media would compare how many states they won as if her winning calif is equal to obama winning Idaho! what nonsense! he's won a bunch of small red states that will never vote democratic.

his wins are frivolous and empty.. hillary only needs ohio and texas.. Penn would be good and she has a right to Fla no matter what kind of BS they try to pull. Fla and Mich have a right to be heard for the votes they already made.

Obama whines since the beginning of these campaigns started but no comments from the media on that.. along with his empty rhetoric.. but Clintons say anyting factual? and that's whining?

what a freaking disgrace..

sexism is a live and well in this country and racism.. god forbit don't you dare say a black voted for a black because they're a black... it's racist !!

what bullshit

and craig i am curious, how the hell do you know they were "moping around "? were you there? or is it word of mouth? because in the media we know how that goes.

and anon paranoid, take your "god bless" crap to a church

It might have worked in the past, but eventually, whether in real peril or just crying wolf, you use up your good will credit.

People who "didn't care" which team won at the beginning of the Superbowl party were all screaming like the Cowboys had won by the end of the game. I hope people don't jump on the Obama bandwagon for that reason alone, but it is human nature.

nash - Still think I'm crazy about Huckabeeeee giving McCain a run for his money? I think this may be the beginning of a 3rd party. Social conservatives will keep the GOP and fiscal conservatives will have to go build their own treehouse.

Watched BillO and Rove for a bit last night & Rove's insight into the Dem & GOP races was very interesting...and, BillO managed to come off like even more of an idjut. How can you come off worse than Karl?

Craig

Your Imus appearance was interesting even if he said you sounded "disgruntled". Thanks for having the courage to express your "contrarian" view .

That is why I remain a Crawford loyalist. Hope you can have it available for listening.

Based on your comments, (which I agree with) would it be safe to conclude that it is currently acceptable for the media to offer & permit sexist, misogynistic coverage of Hillary, but any attempt to delve substantively with Obama is being treated as racist commentary that must be ignored? (My conclusion--not necessarily yours)

Five words that show the idiocy of it all.

"The rage over the caricatures ..."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080212/ap_on_re_eu/denmark_prophet_drawings

BJ - good morning...
You must not have a long history with Craig as he is very fair and actually sometimes I call him on what appears to be a favorable slant to HRC.

and please can you find a better word to describe your feelings about the country..

Linda Wisc... Come on - take off the blinders

Hillary or Barack, lets get on with it. Lets kick some neocon ass.

Anyone who watches Faux ever deserves what they get.

what is a neocon? Is this as dangerous for our country as a big govenment - non responsible accountable lib?

max, How is Air America doing?

Craig... didn't hear you on Imus....
you may be right about Clinton in your TM....

when I woke up this morning, this thought first hit me....

while the Democrats have been braying loudly over their symbolic choice for who will be the nominee of their party....... the Republicans have quietly been nominating a genuine war hero and someone who really knows his stuff......
and all of a sudden..... I had a very bad feeling....

Blue..... I would love to see your prediction of the Republican party splitting.....
but something tells me when some of them who are upset now at McCain wake up and realize he has an excellent shot at being president elect on Nov. 5th..... they will change their tune.... wouldn't mind if I was wrong, though...

BJ..... you definitely be the one who got mad at Sheila and erased all your posts long ago...... same fire and brimstone....

Don't listen to it. C-Span, MSNBC, internet. I wouldn't turn on that propanganda if they paid me.

I guess we are going to find out what an accountable lib can do. Go Hiiiary, Go Barack! I think you know what a neocon is.

we all have our own understandings - so not sure your definition or how to classify a neocon. It is a term that has grown in some corners as a general slam against all republicans.
If this is the use it is way off base. I would use it to describe a very few people that had to much power. It is over used by very negtive people

I love this headline

"House Republicans approach record departures"

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/27125.html

The rats are fleeing the ship

Jack

republican...........neo-con enabler

Will Barack Obama's association with alleged business-fraudster Antoin Rezko undermine his hopes of the presidency in 2008? "Soon, that won't matter anymore, though, because if the media doesn't knock him off-balance, Hillary Clinton will come up for air. When that happens, he's going down faster than Paris Hilton on a weekend pass."

http://www.helium.com/debates/sbs/71951-barack-obamas-association-alleged?page=1

Sturg - agree pre 06 letting...

The group that was in power needed to go.... Republicans are cleaning house just as the Dems have had to redifine. Now Rep's must do the same.

Weak leadership...

Linda - So how do you really feel?
Seems the Dems may have similar situation as the Reps

McCain/Romney wins

A neocon for me is a republican run amok, They have lost the true meaning of conservatism. Yes, unfortunately 7 years of lies, Constitution crashing, signing statements, Iraq, Katrina, economy, healthcare have turned me negative. But I still have hope and I am excited by a change in DC

Happy Birthday to Honest Abe Lincoln

You have that right Ping Pong, both parties are going to have a difficult time this fall. Feeling are running deep on both sides, the election system in our country is a joke with the rules of the parties being so different, voting machines with no paper trails, closed and open primaries, primaries and caucas' and on and on..............then throw in racism and sexism, age and religion, conservative and liberal, and on and on..................wars, economy, murder, people burning their own homes. It all enough brewing to make for one freaken civil war.

BUT, as you put it, "7 years of lies, Constitution crashing, signing statements, Iraq, Katrina, economy, healthcare have turned me negative. But I still have hope and I am excited by a change in DC." I am not excited about giving that to someone who I don't trust, or see as a positive candidate. There is lots to learn about BO, and nobody is asking the questions. The more I learn about him, the less I like him.

And if I hear his damn commercial one more time on TV this morning, I am going to be iLL!!

while reading a number of articles about the changes in Clinton's campaign staff, one number that was particularly striking is that the Clinton campaign has raised $175 million during the last 7 years for her election bid. I don't know how that compares with other campaigns, but I have to question our morality as a nation until these outrageous, obscene expenditures for buying votes is under control. and before all the Clinton supporters attack me, just know I consider this typical, and I am not singling her out. The whole process is seriously flawed.

"McCain/Romney wins"

Sure but the question is what?

Jack

Lorreta Lynn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQof4kFblUY

Just another of those whiney women

Jack

Well, so much for my plunge into the political process...LOLOLOL!!!

I got up at 4:00am, anxious to be a sign holder for HRC(I am such a simple soul, aren't I?)!! I arrived at the firehouse at 5:40(20 minutes ahead of schedule), patiently waited for my "contact" to arrive.

I sat in my car until 6 and didn't see anyone with signs for anyone, anywhere. I went in the building...no one knew anything.

At 6:07 I called my contact and got her voice mail. At 6:22 she returned my call(as I was turning into the entrance of my neighborhood). When I answered she asked, "hey, what's up?".

I won't go into all the details of our conversation, but it involved her calling me "ma'am" several times, while saying that I needed to be more patient(as she was on her way, with the signs now)................and me mentioning the word "kids", several times, while saying that they needed to be more organized!!

I ended by telling her(while I pulled into my driveway) that I was really disappointed and if they happen to get organized, for the 4:00pm shift, that she should call me and I would be more than happy to be an HRC sign holder from 4-7!!

Hi Craig,
I am a bit disappointed also. Crying, mouning,etc. are not facts for sure. Hillary will take Ohio, TX and Pa. I have no doubt about that. Caucuses are a sham. Obamas were busing people to them.
This is my thought for what it is worth. First Hillary has to take Obama as VP. There is not choice. When Hillary wins the Democrats will and want the black vote. If Obama is not on the ticket the Republicans win. There is no question. They can play the card that he will be ready in 4 or 8 years.
Howard Dean has his hands full.

The good news is, is that I arrived home, just in time to watch Craig's interview with Imus!!

good morning, Lush - sorry for your 1st foray into the exciting world of politics to have been a disorganized disappointment. better luck this afternoon.

Lush- where are you?

I do not think that Hillary's "tears" were anything but genuine feeling . That's just so wrong...

Lush: Disorganization has plagued the HRC campaign in my opinion. Witnessed it for myself several times in Iowa and my friend who attended the Seattle rally said it was one big mess: No parking, inappropriate venue, she was late etc. Many hacked off people. The next day Obama had an amazing rally with 18,000. Didn't look good. But don't be discouraged, you are doing the right thing for the right candidate!

Carol: What about the reverse...must Obama choose Hillary as VP to get older women and some of the other minority groups where she dominates? My answer is yes.

Thanks, colleen

I live in VA, Kathy

I did vote. I stood in line for an hour, but it was OK, because many of my neighbors were in line, so we caught up on all the lastest neighborhood news/gossip!!

Based on your comments, (which I agree with) would it be safe to conclude that it is currently acceptable for the media to offer & permit sexist, misogynistic coverage of Hillary, but any attempt to delve substantively with Obama is being treated as racist commentary that must be ignored? (My conclusion--not necessarily yours)

Posted by: Coreen | February 12, 2008 7:31 AM

Why not? Some of Obama's most ardent supporters permit it and participate in it here!

Listen to these women whine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zUqNF7K30

Jack

Lush- so what was the political gossip you heard from your fellow voters?

That is impressive if there was an hour long line before 8 am!

How the hell is "big government" dangerous for our country? That's just repuglican ideology regurgitated for the umpteenth time.

Linda Wisc.- I didn't say who I wanted in DC. For the record I support Hillary, I donate to Hillary, when PA has the primary I will be doing what is asked for Hillary.
However, when the dust settles and IF Barack is the nom. I will support him in the same way I support Hillary. What are you hearing that has you so concerned about Obama?

Hey, I don't claim to know much..but I will say that Craig touched upon something I have "felt" this whole time about Obama..there is something not on the up and up about him,and it is not his lack of information on how he will make a "change".(how come the media gives him a pass on a lot of his stands?)I get the feeling that there is a hidden agenda with Obama(not that I think that any politician is totally honest)..I get the feeling he is hiding something..something that is very important. I get an uneasy feeling about him that I can't shake..Hey, just my 2 cents..take care out there,j

EuroTom: Count me as a ditto in your yes to Coreen.

I was listening to the radio the other day and the host (Dave Ross on KIRO) was speaking with a "reporter" (I use the term loosely) who had attended the Clinton rally in Seattle. Dave asked the reporter "How Hillary looked" and the reporter responded "How do you think she looked? She is a 60-year-old woman. She looked like an old woman. She was wearing a brown pantsuit. She looked like a UPS driver." This constitutes a discussion about the rally? And dare I say the interview did not proceed into anything much more substantial.

I feel like I live in bizarro world.

EuroTom- watch the repug slinging. Ping Pong is a little sensitive today. Good thing you didn't say neocon.

Bj, you scare me. You got the same anger I got... It's interesting to read it from others. Not to put you down.. I love your passion! But it's kinda eerie to read and think... "this sounds like me when I am really pissed" which actually is more often these last few years.

I think though, we all need to try to keep the anger down. I think there is a serious split between the Hillary and Obama supporters and this might bring the idea of the Dems taking over the White House in 2009, to a sad, unfulfilled dream.

Ally

The funny thing is, yesterday I received probably 6-7 calls from HRC's "kids" asking if I would be there, if I needed a sign, verifying the time, etc.....but no one mentioned anything that I was supposed to do, in case people did not show up.

I went to the HRC rally, on Sunday...it was fine and I had lots of fun!!

Another woman

more whine

Pat Benatar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcSBurP8yLs

Jack

A neocon for me is a republican run amok, They have lost the true meaning of conservatism. Yes, unfortunately 7 years of lies, Constitution crashing, signing statements, Iraq, Katrina, economy, healthcare have turned me negative. But I still have hope and I am excited by a change in DC

Posted by: max | February 12, 2008 8:05 AM

In my opinion, all repugs have run amok. It started with the fundamentalist infiltration of the party, the so called "Reagan revolution" and their interference in private lifestyle choices, plus their hard work redistributing wealth from the middle classes to the richest in the society. They talk all about morals, have no qualms with big business setting the agenda and getting corporate welfare, while hating people who are poor and on welfare and fighting a woman's right to choose. They believe in the sacredness of life, from the moment of conception just up to the point of birth. After that welfare mother, you're on your own! And don't think you're going to stay home to care for that kid. YOU BETTER WORK! Oh yeah, but we will criticise you incessantly about the fact you are working instead of being a full-time, at home mother.

Kathy

We were talking neighborhood news/gossip...nothing political.

There were maybe 100 people in line, when I got there...but there probably wouldn't have been much of a line, if there had been more than 2 people working.

They were doing the best they could, I felt bad for them. I didn't mind waiting, but it looked like lots of people were on their way to work.

Lush: Yes, I read your comments about the rally and it sounded fabulous. I attended many excellent rallies here in Iowa. She is simply amazing in person. Love her to death.

I just felt that the Clinton ground game was seriously off in comparison to Obama's. You should have seen my caucus. There were like 25 Obama staffers/volunteers at the door guiding people in. I could not find a Clinton staffer to save my life. And I have already mentioned in several previous posts the GOTV drive from a logistics standpoint...a real mess.

One other point: Obama was really aggressive about organizing babysitting the night of the caucus. Another area that was poorly addressed by the Clinton campaign.

here it is, Jane! Obama's big secret!

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/06/obama-fathered-a-black-child/

Ally

Taking a line from one of my fav Sonny&Cher songs..."it's the little things that mean a lot..." ;)

So does this woman whine too?
Queen Latifah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prhF6LE89z4

Jack

that's Hillaryous, colleen!!

What Sonny and Cher song is that?

At the time of the Iowa caucuses it was reported that the Clinton campaign was offering babysitting services and even snow shoveling and there was a big hew and cry about whether that was buying vote

"Hillary Clinton's campaign offering teen baby-sitters for Iowa ...In Thursday's caucuses, it all comes down to getting out the vote. And Clinton is going to the extremes, even lining up baby-sitters and day care centers "

Of course Obama has a better ground game. Most of the Supporters of Senator Clinton have to work regular jobs and care for family obligations. Senator Obama's volunteers are probably skipping class or they work off shifts at the GAP or Starbucks.

"It ain't over yet" As I posted yesterday, it is an awfully long time to the convention. And although she may not have any "wins" this month, next month will be a different story.

HRC in El Paso this evening...licking her wounds, but here for a rally at UTEP and $1000 plate dinner.

And I am laughing again at the pollsters....the match-up between McBush/HRC and McBush/BHO...who will win? The pollsters have been the real losers in primary/caucus/elelction season. Maybe we need to research that vodka drinking contest between McBush and HRC. It mi9ght be more telling than another poll.

What are you hearing that has you so concerned about Obama? Posted by: max

I will not vote for him. I spend hours doing research on this guy and there is a lot of stories brewing about him, most haven't been explored in depth yet my the MSM. Or maybe I just missed the 30 second spot. Just listen to the adjectives and verbs that the media uses to describe him compared to Hillary.

His ads on tv should come with disclaimers like the drugs they advertise. Or maybe they should go back to advertising booze, they could run one right after his!!

Hillary isn't saying that she has been investigated more than any other other candiadate for the fun of it. She has something on Mr. Kenya and waiting for the correct time to release it.

Here is one of the articles I just got done with.
This is true, but none other than Michelle Obama is playing the race card!
http://politics.wikia.com/index.php?title=Why_I_will_Not_Vote_For_Obama

It's the Little Things
Sonny&Cher (collectables)

You're not the kind of guy
That make the girls all sigh
And they never turn their heads
And look when you walk by

But baby that's okay I love you anyway
And I never change or rearrange you
So stay that way

Cause it's the little things that mean a lot
It's what you are not what you got
Call my name and I'll come running
Look at me and the clouds start sunning
Hold my hand and you got me going
Kiss my lips and my mind starts going
We got a thing that won't stop cooking
You turn me on just by looking
You can make me strong just by sighing
You can break my heart just by crying

You're not the smartest man that I ever met
And every word you ever said I won't forget
And so I guess that's why until the day I die
When you're bad and make me sad
You're still my guy

KGC: I read those accounts in the media as well. I am just telling you what I saw. I called the campaign a week before the caucus to offer the services of my two sons for babysitting and a week out, they had no plans firmed up. The day of the caucus I attended a Hillary rally with my two sons (pulled them out of school to go) and they again offered services. We were told they were only using professionals and not teens so thanks but no thanks. Could have just been my part of the state.

I know it was on an earlier album, I just can't remember which one 8)

MObama like Bill has a wagging finger...and I do agree with you L-in-W. She was the "one" who spread the fairytale line. But, they both are playing the spouse card, too. I just have a problem with her as she is not a loyal democrat...anyone who states she has to 'think long and hard' about voting for HRC next November (when she will be our candidate) relfects a pretty miserable attitude.

And KGC: I don't know why it would have been a scandal to offer babysitting...the Obama camp had big centers opened up for that very purpose. I know this because my whole block (with the exception of three of us) caucused for Obama and they were touting babysitting services for weeks prior.

Hey to all the people calling us whiners: I would say the Obama folks did a fair amount of whining coming out of New Hampshire, wouldn't you? Remember South Carolina?

NBC Is Toughest on Hillary; FOX Has Heaviest Coverage
Hillary Clinton is getting the worst press and Barack Obama the best press of any major presidential candidate, and Bill Clinton is also getting negative reviews, while the gap in good press between John McCain and Mitt Romney is narrowing, according to a new study of TV news election coverage by the Center for Media and Public Affairs. The study also finds that FOX�s evening news show had the most coverage of policy issues and the least coverage of the campaign horse race.
http://www.cmpa.com/

I'm curious as to how open the Super Delegates are to corruption. Both sides are lobbying hard, but the Clintons are the ones with a history bribing/coercing others to their will [TravelGate, FBI files, etc].

Is there any way to monitor this? I'm worried Hillary is up to more mischief.

Ally see Fenn post at 9:25 anf the following small sample from Iowa

"B Hillary Clinton’s Meal ...The Clinton campaign is opening day care centers across the state, ... missing persons and the dead vote, this is a dry run of buying and stealing votes. "

Faux News (Hannity and that dem guy) had an interesting chat yesterday evening (and if Craig is not on, I just do not watch MSNBC) and Hannity stated that the US is finally ready for a black president. I am ashamed to think that we are not ready for a FEMALE president. It really bothers me that the equality of the sexes is a myth in this country. Maybe it is time to move for a better health care plan...it really is fun to go to a country where they really do love women as much as men. : )

I am around, but cleaning my apartment quickly before my banker gets here... It's a bachelor pad mess... back later

Ally, go to google and type in Obama whining...........you will see plenty of it.

KGC
Used the term "work the ref"

That terms helps me understand my annoyance with Craigs post.
Nothing he has listed comes to the level of whine.

"work the reff", "lowering expectations" are the terms that describe his examples. Then he blames the Clinton organization for the press' total screwups. Most of the Press have no access to the inner workings of the Clinton organization. So they pick up tidbits of gossip from wannabes and those forced to the outside.
If you think Mark Penn is in the inner circle, then explain to me what he was doing giving a book reading in New York last night?
I'm sure the Clintons can whine with the best of them but I saw no examples in this post.

Jack

KGC: That was before my time on the blog...good thing too because I would have gone cuckoo! The Obama camp's tactics were MUCH more aggressive for GOTV, as witnessed in their success in caucus states. HELLOOOOOO! Thank you for enlightening me...I had no idea that these accusations were out there.

Luntz also had a good focus group on Faux News last night...he asked the BHO supporters about his achievements and no one could really come-up with any. One girl passed. One stated he was the first black senator. I just found that interesting. Just like his dipolomatic experience with Kenya. He may be likable, but is he competent and I know, Warren, I need to read his book.

I'd rather read Craig's books (Amazon has shipped them...they emailed me so).

One stated he was the first black senator

I cetainly hope someone corrected her ..after all this is black history month.

HRC's biggest problem is she cant say anything negative about him ....cant mention his record or his ineperience without it being classified racial.......the republicans will say anything and everything about him and not care about the media twist......she is in a bind and theres no way she can fight him and his empty rheritic and the media bias......she has to just plug along and hope the public sees through his con artist moves

what I'm seeing is that Democrats and Republicans are going for the opposite type of candidate that they did from the last 2 elections.....

Dems had Gore and Kerry.... both career politicians and policy wonks.....
Repubs had Bush..... an outsider from Washington and not a policy wonk....

now it's the reverse..... the Dems want the outsider and the Repubs want the career politician.....

if you look at this without the emotional baggage (sorry, not sure that's possible for some of you).... and if you believe that it's not the base of either party that will decide the general election, but independents..... the real change from the current administration would be the career politician who's been there and knows his stuff..... and not another Washington outsider....

with that said...... GO DEMOCRATS!

one more Woman whineing

Billy Holiday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

Jack

KGC

It was actually a young black man who stated that...and it is Faux News, they did not correct it. It really was a telling segment. Hey, I make mistakes too, but I think the young black women who passed on the question said a lot more. And we have to remember, Obaman Girl did not vote and claimed she was sick...but was seen at a vodka company promotion later that evening. Hmm...what do they all know about vodka that we are missing?

U.S. Senator: Hiram Revels became Senator from Mississippi from Feb. 25, 1870, to March 4, 1871, during Reconstruction. Edward Brooke became the first African-American Senator since Reconstruction, 1966–1979. Carol Mosely Braun became the first black woman Senator serving from 1992–1998 for the state of Illinois. (There have only been a total of five black senators in U.S. history: the remaining two are Blanche K. Bruce [1875–1881] and Barack Obama (2005— ).
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmfirsts.html

mornin' all.

God, Craig, you are so in the pocket of the Clintons!!! hahahahahahah.

Fen, WADR, you are an idiot.

Blondie, your 9:15 post is right on target. Really, how wrong have the pollsters been up to now? Pretty damned wrong, I'd say.

Hey, anyone see the 21 year old superdelegate on Abrams last night? Good god.

Well, it's an appropriate day for a new civil war. I put up something unusual today and I don't expect you to read the whole thing if only because you have lives.

For Lincoln's birthday, I wrote an introduction and then finished with the speech at Cooper Union. It was completely researched, written, and presented without assistance by Lincoln and iis considered the point where he received the national attention he needed to become President

If you have never read it, then take at least a short peek. Think about what we have for a President, but try not to start sobbing.

RR

My hubby thinks that no matter what, the repugs will not be successful in November. McBush's alignment with the Prez and the Prez's alignment with McBush (he is a true conservative) will defeat them. I wish I were so optimistic. And he thinks everyone threatening not to vote if their candidate of choice is not selected at the convention can still stay home and the dems will still win.

Well crap, she can't see me today, got called to Antwerpen. All this cleaning for nothing :D .. .well it does look better.

Do you all understand why the Clinton campaign has not attacked Obama except in the most gentle ways? Does it have to be spelled out?

Oh right, I know this song now... LOL ....

Sonny and Cher "It's the Little Things"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Q0rPw-kwg

if the media dosnt start asking the tough questions instead of just showing his empty speeches....the dems are going to lose another election.....since 1980 we have had one dem in 28 years......all because of dems being stupid (fla...mich....super d;s)......the far left amd the african american vote isnt enough to get him elected .....the repub;s will rip him a new rear end when they start coming out with his record and inexperience and any dirt they can find including swiftboating him ....he will falter because he dant stand criticism

Good article about Mr. Kenya's record when he first got into the senate.

"True, Obama did show a rare flash of defiance when he unsuccessfully pushed legislation this year to create an Office of Public Integrity, which would have enforced anti-corruption laws. But that kind of power-challenging move, which was met with strong resistance from both parties, was an exception. At the same time that he was ruffling feathers with that bill, he was one of the many Democratic senators who fled from Russell Feingold’s motion to censure Bush over the White House’s refusal to seek court orders for domestic wiretapping. Though polls showed that roughly half of Americans supported censure, it was shunned by the Senate club as too confrontational, and Obama seemed to agree.
http://davidsirota.com/index.php/mr-obama-goes-to-washington/

Zumper...I tend to think more like you instead of my hubby. When Karl Rove is a paid contributor to Newsweek and Faux news, there will be big trouble ahead for BHO. Why do you think the repugs are promoting him over HRC?

The papers here are headlining the latest polls between McBush and the Dem candidates. Two points: The Keith numbers are still at 13 and above looking at undecideds and margin of error; second, it's not the popular vote that counts, even if the polls are correct, it's the electoral college. Keep checking the red states and the blue states to see if any of them, red or blue, show changes toward the other side. In the 2004 election, there were bigger margins of popular vote in the red states than in the blue states on average. With that in mind, Dems have to gain more votes in the red states to win them than Reps do to win in the blue states. Something to think about!

Thanks EuroTom 8)

dog...
thank you....

I'm getting nervous that maybe the Democrats missed the boat by not nominating an elder statesman such as Biden.... or someone who really knows his stuff like Richardson.....

really, really hope I'm wrong.....

Blonde wino..... I think both sides will vote no matter who their nominee is....
IMO... not many will want to be left on the sidelines....

gotta go.... going to the city.....

GO DEMOCRATS

A majority of registered voters are Democrats nationally.

RR

I do not think McBush will be able to drum-up the support of the conservatives by November. The big fear in the repub party is that they will sit home and not vote.

Absolutely agree that security will be an issue around election time. You can bet the farm on it: terrorists at the Wal-Mart, Osama tapes, Iran considering nuking Israel, generals rattling sabres and the media repeating ad nauseum, "They are coming to kill us."

I guess I am tired of "white guilt". Get over it already. Practically every target group has been shat on many times in our country's young history. People as soooo invested in being offended... and if something is said in a criticizing way, some dingbat will yell "RACIST". And that sort of shit just pisses me off to NO END!

gop'ers are voting for him mbecause he is going to be easier to beat ....matching him against Mcain he cant beat the experience factor ......independents will at best split against Mccain....look at NH where mac beat him amongst independents ......primary versus general are two different animals

Patsi: Yes, get ready for an orange alert in September or October.

Stupid stuff that can made a difference. The media creates a climate. MiSNBC is on to "FEAR FACTOR" and an "ENTIRE MONTH" until Clinton expects to win. Will the MONEY HOLD OUT at only a half million a day. Intonation and verbiage is everything.

The March 4 elections are 20 days away. I doubt Hillary Clinton is curled up in a ball in some corner, and when did ten million dollars become chump change?

This campaign is becoming more noted for the innuendo and lies told by the media than for the actual issues and qualities of the candidates.

I said this in an earlier thread but I firmly believe that the more specific Obama gets, the less support he will have amongst Moderate GOPs and even some independents. They might actually put two and two together and figure out that he is.......a liberal! And then they will vote with their wallets.

jamie
you hit the nail on the head ....the media is running his campaign and people are like sheep following their crap.......obama;s followers wont know what hit them in the general.....GOP is the big leagues and will eat up this minor leaguer in an empty suit

One more thing... why is it so many people want someone with little or no experience to be our country's Chief Executive. Gee, let's try that with a corporation. Hey, I'd like to be a CEO of Bank of America. Experience? What do I need that for? I mean, how bad could I be? And after all, I was a Personal banker for 5.5 years so that qualifies me for the role of head honcho.

Has everyone gotten amnesia? Eight years ago, the USA got the least experienced candidate maybe ever, or maybe in our lifetime, who then became President. The rest is "Nightmare on Pennsylvania Avenue". It's like this dream you can never wake up from. Hell, that's how it was during the "deep freeze" of the 80s when that old coot Reagan was supposedly running the country.

If you don't want to choose a candidate who had significant experience to lead, but had been in politics a short while... well is THAT the best we can do? The President is the CEO of the United States. I don't understand the American people polling on seeing experience as a negative. WEIRD FRICKEN COUNTRY!

I read "Team of Rivals" this summer and it made me very sad. To even think the party of Lincoln has come to this makes me sick.

Jamie: Don't forget "SLIPPING AWAY."

When I first started on this blog (about a week and a half ago), I asked about an incident between McBush and BHO that occurred about a year ago in the Senate. I remember BHO looked very weak against McBush. Craig reminded me he does not refresh, but a few bloggers gave me the link to the confrontation. If I remember it, imagine the repugs will, too.

On another note, in the Newsweek story about McBush, it was stated that as a toddler, when McBush got angry he would hold his breath and pass out. His parents used to plunge him into cold, icy water to revive him...now what is up with that?

Ally wrote: "Hey to all the people calling us whiners: I would say the Obama folks did a fair amount of whining coming out of New Hampshire, wouldn't you? Remember South Carolina? "

AMEN Ally - I was thinking that myself this morning.

As for the argument between Tom and Dog - I actually think ... at least since I've been here the jerks are pretty even but overall everyone on both sides is nicer. As I said before the Obama jerks are prevelant over at TPM which is why I stay away from there now.

Colleen

Funny. re Obama fathering a black child. Like everything else in his life, he did it the easy way. McCain had to go shopping for his!

Still whining ,

more
Billy Holiday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ3PVm6YbmU

Jack

EuroTom-The american public wants someone to cheer for and they can't see beyond the ra, ra Obama is putting out there. There are several big states coming up and I all we can hope for is Obama starts to get the scrutiny Hillary been under forever.

im 67 years old and if anyone thinks washington is going to change they are nuts ,,,,,and if you also think GOP will work with a dem ....forget about it......thats is rheritic at its best

Must work...must work..have a good day, y'all. Be careful out there and watch out for the other guy.

I think I will pick-up some vodka for this evening's primary/caucus results.

So what I'm reading Renee is that you mean:

the real change from the current administration would be the career politician who's been there and knows HER stuff..... and not another Washington outsider

?

Dog's eye: My only concern with banking on the post-partisan vote is that McCain has long been seen as the Democrat's favorite Republican. He has a fairly strong record of reaching across the aisle himself. Hence his problem with the Conservative wing of his own party.

Okay, I am sick of hearing that BHO is an outsider...he is a Senator!

BYE

I watched Imus this morning and listened to Craig's somewhat reluctant, until he got started, rant about Obama's free ride.

I couldn't agree more.

I live in South Carolina. The couple of weeks leading up to our primary was a horrendous combination of manipulation by the Obama campaign and 'reporting' without accurate context of Bill's remarks.

I have heard virtually nothing of substance on how Obama plans to actually run our government aside from glib comments saying he is a visionary and that he will leave the hands-on to functionaries and technocrats. In that context, BC's remark that it would be a "roll of the dice" reflects how I view the formation of an Obama govenment.

And, I thought yesterday's page one Journal article about Mrs Obama was a worthwhile read. I think most people can get it off the net.

Flatus, Columbia, South Carolina

I don't think I have been called "racist"... But I will say this, inside all of us is the possibility of being racist. At the college I went to "whites" were told they can be racist, but "people of color" cannot be racist. They can only be prejudiced. The explanation that was given was that the "white majority' has the institutional power to enforce and inflict "racism" which is what it is apparently. Racism is prejudice + the power to act on that prejudice in order to disempower another group.

I'm tired now... cheers!

"Of course Obama has a better ground game. Most of the Supporters of Senator Clinton have to work regular jobs and care for family obligations. Senator Obama's volunteers are probably skipping class or they work off shifts at the GAP or Starbucks. "

That tells e that while Mom and Dad are out paying their bills (I have a 20 - something daughter so I know) - they are making decisions about our future.

I really don't want my 20-something making decisions about MY future especially when I'm still paying the bills...but that's just me.

More typos..Oh, a Senator without achievements, that is!

Now this is the way HRC does the whine

Her theme song for the day, just for Craig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4rPIjWqMRc

Jack

From a Wisconsin paper:
Clinton will look to solidify his wife’s standing in smaller towns and an older population that believes Mr. Obama’s rise reeks of a personality cult — I call it the Krugman Directive
http://badgerherald.com/oped/2008/02/11/candidates_need_milw.php

Fen

"TravelGate, FBI files, etc]." Has there been a trial and conviction? Has a charge of any kind ever been brought? Has anyone ever been able to come up with a single provable fact.

Why are the Republicans so anxious to get Obama that they are dredging up every right wing talking point under the sun?

Dog ... need I remind you that McCain also pulls independent voters.

Both McCain and Obama (and Hillary) have their problems with different groups - they all come out about even to me. Obama will have a hard time with Hispanics and Asians (sorry it's just a fact) some of them might go to McCain. McCain will have a problem the base of his party. Hillary will have a problem with some men and African Americans. It's a wash about who they will have a problem with.

All the candidates will have to earn some votes in the general election.

With that, my vote goes to the person who shares my values and has the best plan to move our country forward; who I believe is tough and knows how to get things done in Washington. That's Hillary. It's that simple.

While AZ lost one of its most conservative representatives, John Shadegg, to retirement, state Repugs are pushing an initiative for the November ballot on banning gay marriage. Sure, we talk about September and October surprises with terrorism, but the way to get conservative and independent voters to the polls is to put gay marriage initiatives on the ballot - again! All in the name of decency, of course.

dog - you know I knew that - I was talking about the KIDS who have the time to work the ground game...and remarked on the skipping class comment. I know there are some older folks volunteering but if there was a head count I bet it's a lot of kids.

Just saying.

The conventional wisdom says Clinton is doomed. Don't believe it.
By John Dickerson

"Clinton's support among these key demographics also provides her with her electability argument as she tries to make the case that Obama is a modern-day George McGovern—the pet rock of the party's wealthy liberal wing. "How can we have a nominee who can't win the votes of working-class people?" says one Clinton strategist. It's a good question."
http://www.slate.com/id/2184207/

Jamie

Wholeheartedly agree with your comments that this campaign is being driven by disingenuous media hype rather than reporting on real issues.

II think that may have been what Craig was stating this a.m.

put gay marriage initiatives on the ballot - again! All in the name of decency, of course.

Posted by: eprof2 | February 12, 2008 10:37 AM

that's ome of the ways the Republicans carried Ohio in 2004 they had a "marriage protection act" on the ballot
Of course Ohio is one of the states that specifically excludes domestic partner benefits

I think Florida is also headed for a gay marriage ban in the fall.

From that whiny B

Tina Turner
Still hot after all these years

A theme song for the democrats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoNXsne8exg

Jack

Eugene Robinson thinks Obama walks on water.

Please, the MSM has generated the Obama craze in the last month...

Max,

If you liked "Team of Rivals" check out http://jdurward.blogspot.com I recommend another book about the Civil War and two on how Lincoln became President.

Dog:

Examples of whining either directly from the campaign or supporters or the media:

Hillary's tears won her New Hampshire.
The polls may have actually hurt him (voters thought Obama victory was a done deal).
Bradley Effect.
Bill Clinton was taking liberty with the facts.
Negative radio ads.
Clinton campaign used "dirty tricks"
Obama couldn't tell who he was running against.
Accusations of "code" language.
The race memo.

This is all I can think of off the top of my head.

well dear folks, I gotta go back to work for a bit. Thanks for invigorating my thought processes ... be cool !

Dog & EProf, speaking of the electoral college (which is what we will see elect the president and in the end is where the rubber meets the road).... And dog, you said "do the math", (although not about the EC) so I did some math, and here's some math to think about.

Thus far, of the primaries won by Obama, 13 of the states he has won voted for Kerry in 2004, representing 91 electoral votes; 6 of the states he's won voted for Kerry representing 56 electoral votes. 6 of the states Clinton has won voted for bush representing 44 electoral votes; five of the states Clinton won voted for Kerry representing 117 electoral votes. Total so far - total electoral votes in states won - Obama 147, Clinton 161. If we assume Obama will win the Chesapeake primary, that will add 13 electoral votes for VA that went for bush in '04 and 13 that went for Kerry. At the end of the day today, assuming that Obama wins those states, the total electoral votes each candidate will have won will be 173 for Obama (104 in republican, 69 in dem states) and 161 for Clinton (44 in Rep, 117 in dem states) . If Michigan and Florida are factored in, it changes Clintons numbers to 205 total, 71 in rep. states, 134 in dem states. Leave Michigan out, her numbers are 188 total, 71 rep, 117 dem. Throw Ohio's 20, PA's 21 and Texas' 34 electoral votes into the mix, and the numbers will change dramatically.

Those numbers are why Obama may very well have a difficult time convincing the superdelegates that Obama should get their votes unless he has the nomination in the bag before August unless he can convince those party insiders thaqt he can convert purple and red states from 2004. IMHO, if we assume every other state stays the same color as they did in '04, there are 3 states that will swing the election - FL, OH & WV. All three went red in '04, all 3 were razor thin margins, and at least 2 of the 3 (OH & WV) have many more registered Dems than Reps.

This is also why although it's not in the bag yet, the reps will have a hard time winning the vote in Nov.

Focus on the General. Who is best able to win in Nov? Win the nomination and lose the "Big Vote" - that could and probably would be the Obama story.

Pogo, thanks for the math. Is your opening sentence correct? Shouldn't it be 13 states that Obama won voted for Bush in 2004? Afterall, Obama is winning the southern states in the Democratic primaries, which almost everyone concedes will fall to McCain in November, especially after he picks someone like Huckabee or another evangelical politician.

Today's theme-Hillary and tax returns.

let me correct that first line of the EC vote analyis -

Thus far, of the primaries won by Obama, 13 of the states he has won voted for BUSH in 2004, representing 91 electoral votes; 6 of the states he's won voted for Kerry representing 56 electoral votes;

Changes things.

In Obama world - hard work and the right message often wins.

Eprof, thanks - I caught that error after I posted it.

Hey Barack-great speech, where's the beef?

Max, that is an Obama and (gasp) Fox News issue - trying to tie Bill's income to "money laundering" of funds he received in a buyout of his interest in a middle east venture with the emir of somethingorother. Nevermind that there is no suggestion that the funds, if they were indeed received by Bill were: (a) illegal or (b) were intended to be an campaign contribution, one or both of which would have to exist before a prima facie case of money laundering could even be established. None other than statutory FF Dick Morris raised the issue on Hannity and Colmes a couple of nights ago, with the engineer on the Stop Hillary Express grinning and huzzahing in the corner. Of course, that would assume you could trace the funds from the emir through bill to Hillary, disregarding all the other income Bill had. This is the politics of hope? Good to see who Obama is channeling now.

From Slate :

"For example, when Clinton talks about being able to fight the Republican attack machine, party insiders who have seen the combat up close may be apt to buy the argument that despite Obama's inspiring language, only the Clintons understand what's necessary to combat the GOP."
http://www.slate.com/id/2184207/

Max

"Barack-great speech, where's the beef?"

Obama's speeches are all vegetarian

dog, we have a schools snow day today - got about 1 1/2" last night, are in a lull now, and have a forecast of up to 1" of rain turning to snow tonight. Batten down the hatches - it's coming your way.

jamie,

I was thinking "fluff"

Plan Would Sidestep Electoral College
By NGUYEN HUY VU, Associated Press Writer

Sunday, February 10, 2008

(02-10) 11:16 PST Springfield, Ill. (AP) --

If John R. Koza gets his way, American voters will never again have to wonder about the workings of the Electoral College and why it decides who sits in the White House.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/02/10/politics/p110110S25.DTL&hw=electoral+college&sn=001&sc=1000

repost from the other day story on the group trying to eliminate the electoral college

Cal passed legislation and Ahnold vetoed it saying
it's all about states rights.

On Mr. Kenya's speaking abilities
Shorn of his Teleprompter, we saw a different Obama.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/728ofzey.asp

pogo good take on the numbers. It may be hard to figure out the election process this year, but you gave a good starting point. Thanks, Linda

For what it's worth:

Obama wins in ME | LA | NE | WA | AK | UT | ID | CO | ND | MN | KS | MO | DE | IL | CT | AL | GA | SC | IA. How many of these states were red in 2004? All but six. 56 electoral votes.

HRC wins in CA | AZ | NY | AR | OK | TN | MA | NJ | FL | NV | MI | NH. How many of these states were red in 2004? All but five. 134 electoral votes. (Yes, MI is included with 17 electoral votes that went to Kerry in 2004).

Linda, you're welcome - just a little something to warm the hearts of Hillary supporters in frigid climes like your own.

1" of snow and it's time to batten down the hatches? You have to go to Oswego, NY they measure their snowfall in feet!

Thanks, EProf - same numbers I get.

56 electoral votes for Obama from blue states. 134 electoral votes from blue states for Clinton.

In the midst of everything something important

The U.S. Senate is voting on the FISA amendments

C-SPAN 2

Obama and Clinton are expected on the floor later today.

Right now they are voting on the Feingold amendment to prevent "bulk collections" of us/overseas communications.

the tax return issue is kind of a phony. Senator Clinton does have to file financial disclosure forms

Obama is the only candidate to release tax forms.
Edwards said he would never release his

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3165953&page=1

And guess what, eprof2? In a general election, all of the blue states voters will vote for Obama.

Katherine,

Financial forms (general) versus tax forms (specific) are different. All Billary did was declare that they made between $10-$50 million. That doesn't tell us if it was at Taco Bell or through some shady partnerships. But then again, Billary have never been clear about how they've made money.

alpha1906...about to open my e-trade account to get me some cattle futures!

both parties are in a "pissing match" right now. Mr. Kenya will not do a debate here in WI, Hillary will not release her taxes. He states I released mine and she should too. He states we already had 18 debates, and I am busy. Now who is whining?

It is funny how MSM just passes over the rest of her comments she made yesterday. From AP http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g-qGLDs-gAnZiUXD2NU51ry3j3dwD8UOGCP00

Beyond that, though, no one has made a compelling case for these releases. Common Cause may claim that releasing the returns are "reasonable" for presidential candidates, but what do they really tell us? They may give some insight into charitable contributions and a voyeuristic look into the income streams of the rich and famous, but they tell us little about the policies favored by the candidates. Offhand, I cannot think of a single major revelation about a candidate that came from the released tax returns that had an impact on an election.

Personal income had been considered a private affair before Watergate. After that scandal, which had nothing to do with tax evasion, candidates seized on the release of their 1040s as some sort of honesty test. It might be time to recognize that private income should remain private, and that tax returns give us little germane data about the candidates.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/009956.php

and who can forget this

The GOP branded Al Gore as "Vice President Scrooge" Thursday for giving only $353 to charity last year. A press release from the Republican National Committee said: "Vice President Scrooge -- Al Gore raked in $197,729 in income last year. ... But according to tax returns released to the media this week, Gore gave just $353 to charity." Mr. Gore's office told reporters that the vice president and his wife, Tipper, should be judged by their giving over several years. They donated $35,530 in 1996 and $52,558 in 1992. The Gores also did not claim a tax deduction for contributions to their church and donations of food and clothing to the poor, a spokesman said. Still, the $353 figure opened the way for the RNC and columnists to make Mr. Gore look bad, reports Alan Elsner of Reuters news agency. The RNC noted that the average American family gave $696 to charity in 1996 and people in Mr. Gore's pay range gave over $3,379 on average.

Pogo

"I'm well aware of the lack of southern states' ability to deal with snow and ice"

When I was in DC the Eastern seaboard was hit with a snow storm. The weather people were talkin about many, many inches in various northern states and giving the time until roads would be clear and people able to go to work. The report for DC was: Received 2" waiting for Spring.

Let's hope so Alpha. To me, it's more important for the Dems to pick up one to three red states in November in addition to holding what is already in their grasp. All I want is to get rid of BushCo as he has been an awful president since day one. What I'm suggesting is that Dems had better keep their eye on the prize instead of chewing each other up (and many CListers) these past several months.

A few points:

If whining usually means winning for the Clintons - Obama is going to get his clock cleaned today by the sound of you people.

I can't believe people actually started accusing Craig of being biased against the Clintons this morning. That is way over the line - and shows how Clinton supporters throw out this charge WAY too often. Not all bad coverage is unwarranted. Hillary is not the queen and we have a FREE press in this country.

And your whining is one thing - but speading misinformation is another. If you don't know enough about Obama - maybe it is because you have been in a Clinton bubble the last few months. It seems like Clinton supporters will only talk to non-Clinton supporters to accuse them of horrible things or spead talking points.

If you don't know enough about Obama - go find some information about him yourself. There is plenty out there.

Finally:

Someone said: "Obama will have a hard time with Hispanics and Asians (sorry it's just a fact)." BS!! This is not a FACT.

Obama has a hard time with Latinos because they are huge Clinton supporters. If Obama was not in the race - would it still be a fact that the Clintons would get about the same amount of black votes as Bush?!

Also, many Latinos I have spoken to - support Hillary because of Bill or because of a lot of the misinformation I see spread on this board. Plus, for most Latinos - Bill Clinton is the ONLY Democratic president that they have ever experienced. They will soon learn the Democratic platform favors them - NOT just the Clintons.

I think I am going to go to Puerto Rico in June so I can see Obama get a landslide victory firsthand and put an end - once and for all - to this black-brown divide that has been perpetuated by the media and Clinton supporters.

The U.S. Senate is voting on the FISA amendments

C-SPAN 2

Right now they are voting on the Feingold amendment to prevent "bulk collections" of us/overseas communications.

Posted by: Jamie | February 12, 2008 11:30 AM

Thanks Jamie and to everyone: Please write your Senators and congress person and let them know how you feel about the government tapping your phone without a warrant.

jamie, having lived in AL, VA and NH, I've gotten what I consider a real insight into what is, is not possible when the roads are covered with snow. I drove a RWD Toyota Coralla and a 2WD Ford Ranger PU, both with just all season tires on them, when I was in NH, and I NEVER stayed home because of snow and NEVER put one of them into the ditch. Down here, people slide off the road and park in ditches BEFORE the damn snow arrives. It's incredible. Mrs. Pogo's idea of hell is a road with snow on it and her behind the wheel (unlike me, she has familiarized herself with ditches when it was snowing).

Warren

"If you don't know enough about Obama - go find some information about him yourself. There is plenty out there."

If the specifics are out there, go get a link and put it here. Why should w do your work for you?

5 minutes after she loses the nomination, HRC will file for divorce.

It's an avenue to lots of free media to get her message out. Which may be why Sen Obama is reticent to schedule more debates.

dog or is it because educated, mature, people who live in the cold, snowy midwest would rather have a debate v a pep rally?

Most people would pick a debate over a cult driven message anyday. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/10/MNSJUV8AS.DTL&type=politics

Nash

"5 minutes after she loses the nomination, HRC will file for divorce."

And your source for this little turdblossom is?

please, warren, you (not you personally) Obamites have been whining unfairly that Craig was in the Clinton's pocket for months. After reading Craig for a couple of years now, I can say without hesitation that he is for neither Clinton nor Obama at the expense of the other candidate.

Your comment about the Obama Latino and Asian "problem" is very well true, IMHO. And if you take your post, substitute Blacks for Latinos and Asians, and reverse the candidates' names, it's just as valid for the charge that the black voters have abandonned Clinton as it is for the Obama Latino and Asian "problem." Fact is, those groups don't vote as solid blocs, and no matter which candidate gets the dem nomination, those are groups that are very likely to vote dem in Nov. What is true is that Clinton has done better among Latinos and Asians, and Obama has done better among blacks.

Jamie:

As I always say, read his book - The Audacity of Hope. It is an entire book about his view on politics in this country.

Here is a summary of Obama's record - but you should also go out there and look for yourself:

Obama has served for 11 years as an elected official – 8 years in the Illinois Legislature and 3 years in the US Senate. His current call for affordable health care can be linked to one of the 832 bills he sponsored as a State Senator. In 2003, Obama sponsored and passed legislation that expanded health care coverage to 70,000 kids and 84,000 adults. As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, Obama co-sponsored the enactment of conventional weapons control and transparency legislation, and made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In the 110th Congress, he has sponsored legislation on lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel. Finally, during the current campaign, Obama has participated in diplomatic efforts to end the current ethnic violence in Kenya.

Back in 2002, Obama courageously opposed the Iraq war at its outset, calling it “an ill-conceived venture which would require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undermined cost, with undetermined consequences.”

In 1990, Obama was elected as the first black president the Harvard Law Review in its 104-year history. After law school, Obama worked as a civil rights attorney for several years and was also a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1993 until his election to the U.S. Senate.

Moreover, here are the resumes of the architects of the Iraq War:

Dick Cheney – more than 35 years of Washington “experience,” including key positions with four Presidents

Donald Rumsfeld – a former Navy pilot who served as the 13th and 21st Secretary of Defense, White House Chief of Staff, U.S. Ambassador to NATO, U.S. Congressman and chief executive officer of two Fortune 500 companies

I think the Clinton campaign doesn't need to have their agenda driven by the Obama campaign. The tax returns are not important. Except as with the Gore example another opportunity to bash the candidate on half truths

Dog - you're mistaken about McCain's appeal to indies - With the base of the party voting for someone else in the primary how is he ahead - moderate republicans and indies.

I think you're getting your hopes up about the indies. I stick with my statement - they all have work to do and people to win over - I'm going to go out on a limb and say the difference in the number of people each one of them has to win over is negligible - so I'm sticking with the person best qualified to be president.

Pogo - great post on the Math - haven't been thinking of it in those terms.

I still think they are very close - so best to go with the most qualified.

5 minutes after she loses the nomination, HRC will file for divorce.

Posted by: nash | February 12, 2008 11:51 AM

Nash, that is JUST plain wrong of you!

"If you don't know enough about Obama - go find some information about him yourself. "

Warren -- I know plenty about Barack. I wasn't sure at first whether to even pick a candidate because I liked all three. Then Barack began to morph into a preacher gathering a flock.

I'm not worried about the 5 mil - they have both had very lucrative book deals in the past few years (she got a 7 mil advance on her Living History book) and he has speaking engagements all the time which bring in big bucks. They are married...they split the assets...she's using her part...let's move on.

Ok, I have been all over the board on what to do if Hillary loses the nomination. My current preference is do a "write-in" ballot and still vote for her. It's basically meaningless because one can not really garner a Presidential victory from a write-in campaign. (by the way, is a write-in candidate legal for Prez too?)

Anyway, it would address my desire to make a symbolic statement about how strongly I feel about Hillary being the next candidate, without casting my ballot for someone on the RepuG side.

Whadd'ya think?

I sometimes get the feeling that Obama sees himself as "god's gift". And Michelle is god?

Euro, I thought of that also. I think in WI you can write in a name. Sounds good to me.

SPIN SPIN SPIN

Hi Linda, I suppose if BHO got the nomination, it would be one way to register your own displeasure without actually harming the nominee... At least in WA state... I think my vote would be totally meaningless there. Oh and Linda, I grew up in Minneapolis. `And I LOVE Wisconsin!

League of Women Voters of Wisconsin, Inc. and League of Women Voters of ... A write-in vote may be cast for someone whose name is not on the ballot ...
www.lwvwi.org/cms/content/view/19/21 - 44k

eprof - It astonishes me that people think some of the red states Obama won in a caucus will go blue in a general election when everyone has time to vote. Those planes states will stay red - I know it...you know it...the DNC and other superdelegates know it.

But I'm going to concede here - because Obama is light on substance and experience there has to be an argument for why he should be the democratic nominee. The fact that he won some caucus' in some red states is all he has going for him...so you go with that.

dog well if perception is the driver then Obama shoiuld be debating

"Table 1 demonstrates quite clearly that respondents prefer debates to any other mode of communication. Fully 38 percent give debates as their first choice and 26 percent as their second choice. Moreover, debates were always the most popular second choice if respondents picked something other than debates as their first choice. Coming in second place are town hall meetings, which were either the first or second choice of 41 percent of respondents. Call-in shows and speeches were mentioned by about a third of the sample. Mailers and door-to-door interactions bring up the rear. This evidence suggests that people actually like modes of communication that are conflictual (debates) and interactive (town hall meetings). "

and go Uno --a beagle win would be great!

obama the anti war candidate ? he made a speech in 2002 ,so what else did he do, or say?.from 2002 -2004 .since he's been in the senate he has voted like the rest of the democrats

Larry: that's more than Hillary. Oh, except Obama did not vote for the Iran resolution like Hillary.

To be honest, I haven't a clue what Obama did in the U.S. Senate. He sure stood out at the 2004 Democratic Convention, and beating the husband of Seven of 9 was pretty cool, but beyond that ? He wants to be a leader, but I haven't really seen examples of providing "leadership" in his current job.

Warren did Obama vote "Present"?

Pogo:

That's my point. It is outrageous to say the Craig is biased against the Clintons - yet there were some posts this morning making this charge. I think SOME Clinton supporters reflexively throw out this charge anytime the see bad press re: the Clintons.

If Hillary doesn't want to show her records..sobeit!! Same as Mr. Kenya not wanting to do debates. There is not a damn thing you nor I can do about it. In fact, this shouldn't be about them, as much is it about us. Do you see how this country is being divided? I am beginning to understand why some people watch those stupid reality shows.............it is better than dealing with the reality in our own lives.

Unity my ass...............this small group can not decide on one issue. How in sam-hell does Mr. Kenya think he can bring the whole freaken country together............Is he going to start a pyramid of followers to brain wash us all into selling flowers to balance the budget and introducing koolaid into the countries he has a problem with. Give me a break, hell will freeze over first.

EuroTom:

He did vote cast present votes. But those have a specific purpose in the IL legislature and this was a SMALL percentage of his THOUSANDS of votes.

Read this on his record
http://davidsirota.com/index.php/mr-obama-goes-to-washington/

Tom - I've been thinking the same thing about write-in. Obama's arrogance is starting to get on my nerves and I don't think I can handle 4 years of it (that's all he'll get like Jimmy Carter - 4 years). It is legal in a presidential election.

EuroTom:

What is Hillary's record? List some accomplishments please?

We hear about 35 years of experience and fighting the Republicans - give me some specifics.

Thanks.

Warren, read her biography

I was looking forward to the Potomac Primary (or whatever they are calling it now), but Hillary took off for Texas, I don't know where Obama is. Now this primary is not a big deal. Yah some delegates will be awarded, Obama may win big, but now it's all down to Ohio, Texas, and Pa. What we are nothing like all the other states. The media will have a lot of fun tonight saying how great win it is for Obama, and Hillary is falling apart. Then in WA state they stopped couting the votes and gave the win to McCain. Huckie is staying in the race for whatever reason he's got. Then if the voters don't select enough delegates the super's will pick the candidates. What a joke.

Please - ANYONE - list out some of the grand accomplishments of HRC.

I just did so for Obama.

I would love to stay and chat, but I am sooooo exhausted... really. It is only 7 pm but I will gladly go to bed now. Well wishes everyone!!

Warren this should keep your idle hands busy for the rest of the day.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

I love how people talk about Obama's "arrogance". These are the same people who have NO problem with Billary saying that she couldn't even imagine losing. Just couldn't even get her mouth to form the words "if I lost". Please let me know what's arrogant about Obama. His confidence in his message? His confidence in his purpose? The fact that he connect with his supporters? The fact that he feels that he should win every state that he competes in? What?

obama did not have to vote on the war 'he has not done anything since being in the senate,they don,t let 1st term senators do alot

Linda (or anyone):

What are HRC's main accomplishments. I don't want a list of every single thing she has done in her career.

Warren - This will get you started

Her first cause was children, fighting abuse, and chairing the Children's Defense Fund.
She began her career as a lawyer after graduating from Yale Law School in 1973.
following her career as a Congressional legal counsel; she was named the first female partner at Rose Law Firm in 1979 and was listed as one of the one hundred most influential lawyers in America in 1988 and 1991.
During 1974 she was a member of the Nixon impeachment inquiry staff in Washington D.C., advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal. She helped research procedures of impeachment and the historical grounds and standards for impeachment.
Hillary co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977.
In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation.

She was the First Lady of Arkansas from 1979 to 1981 and 1983 to 1992, and was active in a number of organizations concerned with the welfare of children, and was on the board of Wal-Mart and several other corporate boards.
Bill Clinton appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.
One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place.
She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.
As First Lady of the United States she took a very prominent role in public policy.
She was the initial first lady to hold a post-graduate degree and to have her own professional career up to the time of entering the White House. She was also the initial first lady to take up an office in the West Wing of the White House.
She fought hard for Universal Health Care as First Lady, although it wasn't successful, it's something she learned from.

She visited over 80 countries as First Lady giving important speeches, about such controversial topics as human rights/women's rights in China.

Her major initiative, the Clinton Health Care Plan, failed to gain approval by the Congress in 1994, but in 1997 she helped establish the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) and the Adoption and Safe Families Act.
As a Senator and after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Hillary worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild.
She fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims, grants for hard-hit small businesses, and health care for front line workers at Ground Zero.
She is the first New Yorker ever to serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
She has visited troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in countless other locations, truly understanding the challenges facing our troops.
Hillary passed legislation to track the health status of our troops so that conditions like Gulf War Syndrome would no longer be misdiagnosed.
She is an original sponsor of legislation that expanded health benefits to members of the National Guard and Reserves and has been a strong critic of the Administration's handling of Iraq.
She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage.
She has supported a variety of middle-class tax cuts, including marriage penalty relief, property tax relief, and reduction in the Alternative Minimum Tax, and supports fiscally responsible pay-as-you-go budget rules.
She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program.
She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism.
She sponsored legislation to increase America's commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis.
She has lead the fight for the expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.
Clinton has successfully worked to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act.

She has also proposed expanding access to child care.

She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools.
Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning.
She fought with the Bush Administration and ensured that Plan B, an emergency contraceptive, will be available to millions of American women and will reduce the need for abortions.
She introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted.

Obama was not in the senate when the resolution for Iraq was voted on.

I go back to my original argument...it's all fine and good to SAY you were always against the war but sans an actual vote ON THE RECORD up or down...there is NO argument with me.

Remember his mentor when he got to the Senate was that war monger Lieberman. Other's he seeks advice from also voted "Yea" - except for Kennedy. There is no telling how he would have voted...given his record for funding the war since being in the Senate...the original "I was against the war" is just more EMPTY words from Obama. I want to see a vote on the record given the time and the place from him NOT a speech.

Warren

"Oh, except Obama did not vote for the Iran resolution like Hillary."

You can't vote for something if you are not there to vote.

If claims that he opposed the war, but when asked how he would have voted on that specific piece of legislation if he had been a senator, he answered, "I Don't Know".

Nothing like claiming a victory when you didn't even play the game.

Warren

you left out the fact that Obama was chair of the subcommittee on European Affairs. A nice little resume padder.
you know what committe it is, yes thats right boys and girls. It is the committee that never met not even once.
Now there is commitment for you.

Jack

So why did Mr. Kenya vote for Rice? She was one of those telling us the lies that led up to war.

At this time we all don't need all the talk from these candidates we need them to deliver. Now which one of this group can do that the best.

Virginia speech on Saturday

Divisive language by he and surrogates including Michelle Obama...I'm not sure I can support HRC

I can get her votes she can't get mine (the numbers prove that to be false)

His basic demeanor...the way he walks...the way he talks...the look in his eye

The last 5 polls say I'm the only one that can beat John McCain (they are all really statistical ties between all of the candidates)

Also...read some of Craig's observations yesterday regarding Edward's hesitancy.

The list goes on and on and on and on

He's an arrogant turd -

:-)

Can the new kid on the block get anything done or are they going to say who does he think he is. Can the old dogs get anything done or are they going to say we tried that before and look what happened.

"profiles in courage"

lol
spin spin spin

Jack

He apparently held and still holds Kenyan-American dual nationality
http://www.contrariancommentary.com/community/Home/tabid/36/mid/363/newsid363/79/Default.aspx

He sells his weakness as a new paradigm of strength, security and clarity when there is little strength and no clarity in his mind.

Obama’s “Hope” is the absence of reality, the unattainable in his own life scaled up to a national fantasy which he hopes to peddle to unsuspecting voters and especially young people. When he fails, they will feel betrayed.

These are quotes from the above link

1998--HILLARY CLINTON AWARDED
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
HEALTH FOUNDATION PRIZE

http://www.who.int/inf-pr-1998/en/pr98-WHA6.html---entire read

Mrs Hillary Rodham Clinton, First Lady of the United States of America, was today awarded the United Arab Emirates Health Foundation Prize for her work with women, children and their families. The prize is given annually during the World Health Assembly and carries an award of US$40 000, which at Mrs Clinton's request is being donated to a World Health Organization (WHO) project in the Kigoma Region of Tanzania entitled "Community Involvement in Reducing Death in Childbirth".

Mrs Clinton was cited for her "impressive record of distinguished contributions and achievements in the field of health and social welfare" and "her pioneering work on behalf of women, children and their families".

Mrs Clinton graduated from Yale Law School, Yale University, in 1973. She was admitted to the Arkansas Bar that same year, and to the United States Supreme Court in 1975. She is an Honorary Doctor of Law of several American universities, Honorary Doctor of Public Service, and has been the recipient of several distinguished awards.

Linda:

The Clintons are a big reason for this division. If she wins - you will be having even worse fights during the general. It is how the Clintons do politics - and this style if reflected throughout the camaign - from the top down.

Obama wins on message - but maybe the Clintons can beat him in a streetfight. Good luck - cause no one here is backing down from the Clinton machine.

In April 1999, Clinton was honored with the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Children of Chernobyl Relief Fund for her support of that Ukrainian organization's efforts regarding legacy effects of the Chernobyl accident.[7]
In June 1999, Clinton received the Mother Teresa Award, the highest honor given to civilians by Albania. This was in recognition of her humanitarian efforts following the Kosovo War and worldwide.[8]

wendy
I agree they have names use them. Mr Kenya is over the top. I have use my ignore button on that poster , just like I do the 'billary' posters.

Jack

On March 26, 2004, Clinton was presented with the inaugural Nursing Health and Humanity Award from the University of Rochester School of Nursing.[9]
On February 13, 2005, Clinton was awarded the German Media Prize 2004. "Hillary Clinton is a model politician for millions of women around the world" who "represents in an exemplary way women's rights", the jury for the prize said.[10]
On February 15, 2005, Clinton was given the American Medical Women's Association's President’s Vision & Voice Award, for being an advocate for women's health and related issues.[11]

Chickadee: winning an award. Are you serious? She can go be president of the United Arab Emirates.

Almost everyone in DC has a long record of vague accomplishments, awards and acheivement.

What major things has she done. So far - I am not seeing much - even though this is one of her primary arguments.

Europe likes Hillary Clinton for President

http://www.huliq.com/44221/hillary-clinton-preferred-us-president-poll

In May 2005, Clinton received an honorary doctorate from Agnes Scott College near Atlanta for being a "defender of human rights" and "a resolute defender of the rights of women and girls."[12]
On July 30, 2005, Clinton was given the Reserve Officers Association's National President's Award.[13][14]
In September 2005, Clinton initially accepted but later rejected honorary membership into Alpha Kappa Alpha due to its exclusive requirements which would prevent her from accepting honorary membership in other National Pan-Hellenic Council organizations.[15]
On October 9, 2005, Clinton was inducted into the National Women's Hall of Fame.[16]

In April 2006, Clinton was honored with the Remembrance Award from the Northeastern New York Chapter of the Alzheimer's Association.[17]
On June 14, 2006, Clinton received an Energy Leadership Award from the United States Energy Association's Energy Efficiency Forum, in recognition of her leadership on energy issues.[18]
During 2007, Clinton was awarded an honorary doctorate in medicine by Göteborg University, for being "a strong advocate for increased investment in medical research" and for "raising awareness of the increased health problems linked to obesity, poor quality food and physical inactivity."[19]

Seems like HRC has a lot of awards and "honorary degrees." Lots of famous people win those things.

This HRC experience argument is seeming a bit flimsy when the spotlight is thrown on her instead of Barack.

Wendy:

How bout a vote for the War in Iraq. Oh sorry - that is your candidate.

Alpha 1906

Have you worked on your genealogy? We may be on opposite sides of the candidate fence, but my other obsession is genealogy. There is more and more material being made to Americans of African ancestry. PBS has run a wonderful series with famous black people helping them to trace their lineage.

With very rare exceptions it is almost impossible to be absolutely specific information back to Africa simply because of the lack of written records, but you can frequently get back to either free men or slave rolls at the beginning of American settlement, and DNA can get you back to the geographic location in Africa.

Let me know if you need some sources for research.

the illinois state legislature does not have a vote on national security

Jamie:

HRC always does well in polls where people don't really know the candidates. Name Recognition.

Remember the polls months before Super Tues. - it was supposed to be over for Obama so Hillary could start getting ready for the GOP.

Oh Warren

You're just jealous of Hillary's awards because your google search of Obama's awards hasn't turned up anything of great significance.

You'll say she's been around longer and that's why she has more awards...and yes...that's true she's been working hard at this for a long long time and her efforts have been recognized by many.

Yes...she has more experience and is better qualified...yes I know.

Oh wait...sorry he just won a Grammy - Oh but so has Hillary and Bill...ok that's a draw.

:-)

Hey if it is all about awards - don't forget Obama's grammy.

Wendy:

I never looked for any awards because I do not think they are important.

Warren

Yes - she's on the record. That's the apple. He's not. That's the orange.

I was PISSED at her and my senators for that vote - I was pissed

She and Boxer have changed course. I give them credit.

HE does not have an argument about being against the war from the start because HE did not have to vote on it.

My concern is about HIM not HER. I'm talking about HIM.

The Republicans will eat you people alive. If you are going to try to run on Hillary's "awards" - here are McCain's:

Silver Star
Legion of Merit
Distinguished Flying Cross
Bronze Star
Purple Heart

Afternoon, fellow blog junkies..

pogo.. i too drove a Toyota Carola wagon.. a 1989 that I drove for close to 20 years till the floor fell out and it looked like a flintstones car.. but that thing started every morning without a block heater, drove me many many thousands of miles up and down the eastern seaboard, and pedalled my kids to school, sports, parties... I LOVED that car..and I never stay home because of snow.. ya just get used to it..

RE: Clinton campaign.. what i'm most concerned about is the talked-about hand wringing and worrying IN the campaign.. arent these people professionals? did they think it was going to be a cakewalk? this is an exciting race.. the idea that Clinton (or for that matter Opie wan kenobi on the Rep side) should just say 'oh, ok, I'm done" is insane. It aint over...far from it. and I think misogyny will remain an issue...

I gotta say.. i'm enjoying morninload without the Joe..

Obama wins on message - but maybe the Clintons can beat him in a streetfight.
Warren
" Obama says his campaign is “not just about me.” But in his mind it will always be just about him. Righting the wrongs he perceived and experienced as a child. Strengthening the powerlessness he reviled. Restoring his role, the one his siblings called his father’s “Obama” attitude, in the pantheon of politics. He will strive to be a strong leader on the surface, using powerful language and images; but inside he will still be the pied piper of powerlessness. And know it."
http://www.contrariancommentary.com/community/Home/tabid/36/mid/363/newsid363/79/Default.aspx

Wins to whom? And for how long? Fads come and go, just as fans move on to another pop star. Remember some from the past? Where are they now? Will he resort back to drugs?

Warren

I agree they are a compliment - they are part of the big picture. A person does a lot of work and they get recognized for it. Some awards are more meaningful than others. They are NOT the whole story...I agree with you. They are part of the story - it means they are doing something that is worth recognition.

In response to Warrens post at 1:13PM

Yeah Warren---in my world the achievements of Hillary Clinton mean a hell of a lot--they exemplify her dedication to the human condition.

And I also commend Barack Obama's on his achievements.

Linda:

There is no reason to argue with you anymore. Thanks.

Hi Craig,

I always enjoy your commentary and insights.

The Clintons seem to whine about what they perceive as unwarranted(?) criticisms. (Those old softies.) Then they mischaracterize the statements of Obama such that on their face, the statements appear to the gullible that Obama believes the era of Reagonomics is good for America and that Obama and Clinton were on the same page regarding the war from the outset. Both Clinton spins were dishonest portrayals of Obama's positions/statements/beliefs. (There is overwhelming proof that Obama's position with regard to the war was the same as the 23 Senators who voted against authorizing the president to ultimately use force, whereas Hillary voted with the other 77 Senators to authorize, and, his point about Reagan, well, we are reaping the benefits of Reaganomics, not Clintonomics right now aren't we?)

The Clintons are certainly intelligent enough to know that what they were doing was spinning the truth, they could have hoped for ONLY the 'easily duped' to fall for it (perhaps those are their ideal constituents much like the current administration), and as Ed Schultz has said, "Bill Clinton flat out lied." I find Clinton's tactics too similar to the tactics of our current administration to be comfortable with it. It may be even worse from my perspective because then they feign indignant anger at what they deem to be an unfair press. They seem quite manipulative of the collective intellect of the voters in my opinion.

Now they praise Fox and criticize MSNBC? Was it Rupert Murdoch who held a $600,000 fundraiser for Hillary? I wonder who the Clintons may be beholden to? I believe that if Hillary wins the nomination that we will continue on in the era of big business and more Republican developed Reaganomics, instead of those old quaint Democratic Constitutional ideals that I studied as a Political Science major during the Watergate era, which, of the remaining candidates, are BEST exemplified by Barak Obama .

My point is that I listed Obama's accomplishments and all I got in return was "awards."

Re: "experience"

Obama is making the Clintons look like rookies on the campaign trail. They are always two-steps behind.

I wonder how many of you guys would have the balls to stand before the Chinese as Hillary Clinton didn and take them to task about drowning, suffocating, and breaking the spines of the baby girls---as a way to control the population

Warren

Please...you obviously only choose to read the short stuff - anything over a paragraph is too much. Her accomplishments were posted above...then her awards...the group has done a good job getting it out there. If you choose not to read it - that's something you'll have to reconcile with yourself.

Wendy - you don't know a damn thing about me. But like most Clinton supporters - you are quick to judge.

Pogo - I realize what you are saying

He didn't vote on it - had he been in the senate it might have been different. The world of congress is much different than back in Illinois. We'll never know.

I'll agree to disagree. I'm not basing my vote on that particular vote - it would be stupid of me. That's all I'm saying. I'm basing it on a body of work. I believe she is more qualified and overall has a better and more extensive track record. Is it perfect...no. I'll agree with that. I don't always agree with her but I believe she's the one to get us going in the right direction. I believe he is not there yet. That is all.

Tom, we are reaping the same benefits of Bushanomics that we reaped from Reaganomics/Bush1anomics now - peering over the precipice into a looming recession with record national debt to limit the government's ability to respond to help avoid leting us fall in. Bush took care of Clintonomics tout suite.

Warren----have you read "It Takes A Village" by Hillary Clinton when it came. I believe I read it over a decade ago.

The Republicans trashed---like you do--they couldn't give credit for thinking it might take more than a family to raise a child---she included teachers, clergy, etc.

It does take a village to raise a child.

Ive always said.. the trickle down theory only works with urine..

Warren,

Two of us gave them to you. Your could take up reading. The list above is both expansive and impressive.

Warren

You are right - I don't know anything about you. I do know that someone posted a very extensive list of accomplishments by HRC which you glossed over by saying you only got awards. You got both a list of accomplishments...things she has worked and fought for as well as a list of awards.

I'm sorry but perhaps it's because you're losing this argument that you're going to the...you don't know anything about me and you're being judgmental.

I'm just calling it like I see it. You had hoped HRC hadn't done anything of substance with her life. She has and you're mad. Admit it.

Are can someone be so childish as to "sting" Jamie for copying and pasting.

Grow up.

KGC,

I just stopped by for a quick scan, and I'm commenting on something you said about three hours ago, but I think you over-stated the case when you said the "majority" of registered voters are Democrats. I don't have any source to back me up, but it's been my understanding that there a more people enrolled as Democrats than Republicans, but neither party has anywhere near 50% of the voters.

I guess as a source I'll quote conventional wisdom. You may find more solid figures to prove one of us right, but I'm guessing you'd agree on the more enrolled Dems. than Reps. statement.

warren -

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2008/02/in-clinton-world-whining-often.html#comment-33109

Those aren't awards.

Wendy, I understand the distinction between a speech and a vote and get your point. We suppor tthe same candidate adn are sympatico on that issue, so if it's me you're agreeing to disagree with, it's not necessary.

Hey Jamie,

Thanks for asking. I've been fortunate because my family has two things going for it: They live a long time and we're not that far from our slavery ancestor. When I was ten, my great, great, great grandfather was still alive at 100. He was born in 1876 and his father and mother had been slaves in Texas. So we have pretty good records. Folks always think slavery is so distant. Go to an average black family and it's much closer than you think.

Linda~in~Wisconsin...

I have been trying to get everyone to show some respect for both Democratic candidates by asking everyone not to refer to Hillary as *illary and you have continued to refer to Barack as Mr. Kenya.

If its disrespectful to call Hillary *illary then its just as disrespectful to to call Barack Mr. Kenya.

I would hate to see the party split and put McCain in the Peoples House because of all the name calling going on during the Primarys. And that goes for both sides.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

bj...

I have ended my comments the same way since I've been on line.

If the way I end my comments bothers you then I would suggest you don't read them.

And by the way...

God Bless all.

Typo---should have been---HOW can someone be so childish as to "sting" Jamie for copying and pasting.

Grow up.

Pogo - I know - we're on the same page.

I'm saying agree to disagree on the issue all together - not necessarily you. Some people want to compare the vote to the speech and I don't. That's what I'm agreeing to disagree about.

I'm with you Pogo.

Wendy:

This is not an argument. It is two sides talking past one another - with no meeting of the minds. It is EXACTLY the way Hillary conducts politics. It leads nowhere and both sides go home angry.

I just think there is a better way - and that is why I support Obama.

I think Obama or Hillary can win VA. Kerry did not do to badly.

Chickadee: Views of Education...

"It Takes a Village"
-Clinton

"It takes a private sector educational corporation"
-Bush (Who's brother runs one).

"It takes a tax cut"
-McCain

"It takes faith-based home schooling"
-Huckabee

"Huh? What? I'm BAKED, man."
-Obama (reliving the carefree days of his youth.)

It could depend on what happens between now and election day no matter who the dem candidate is.

so.. what happens if HRC manages to squeak one out in..say.. VA?... does MSNBC go all apoplexy again?

Both Democratic candidates have demonstrated an ability to attack and to defend against attacks.

This is good.

Calm down people. This is all just a warm-up for the general election which will be "good vs evil."

Our candidate must carry the Ring of Power into Mordor and cast it into the fiery core of Mount Doom.

(Or was it destroy the Death Star and release Darth Vader from the Emperor's clutches?)

One or the other.

nash, LOL. Have a beer on me.

If this does go down to a tie and the Superdelegates pick the candidate we all can say how bad it is, moan and groan all about it, but we all new the rules weeks ago. When do they ever change the rules once the game starts. If Hillary would get the votes instead of Obama she will get so much grief. At that point I would hope he wins so we would not have to listen to all.

It seems that everyone forgets that it don't matter who gets the nomination. If either one wins the White House they still have to have both sides of the aisle to get anything done.

I thought Bill Clinton was a good President, however like now he couldn't get much done because of the Republicans.

If you think that Hillary won't have the same problems your wrong. And that is not to say that Barack won't have the same problems.

I just feel he'll have less of them.

And the cult issue brought up continuously I find disgusting. Is this what our country has come too that someone who inspires people to be better then themselves and want to achieve much in there lives has come to?

So go ahead everyone and destroy the unity of the Democratic Party, I'm sure the Republicans would love for that to happen.

God Bless.

oh Nash... if you remember.. poor Frodo was going to keep Precious until Gullem bit his FINGER off.. I hope our candidate really does cast that ring into the fire, cos I see ppl beginning to say it doesnt matter if they vote for McCain... They WANT 4 more years of this crapola!

I hope it is inspiration, but I am not so sure in this case. The media is playing a big time role. There are more factors involved.

I just wrote an email to the HRC campaign.. wonder if anyone'll read it?

It depending on what you said in the email.

LOL.. i didnt threaten anyone... wait.. what are those sirens I hear???

Hey, all. on a slightly less contentious subject - ran maintains a map for Craig showing the location and political leanings of his posters who wish to be included. There are a lot of newish folks here who haven't provided ran with your info. If you want to be put on the map so to speak, drop a note here directed to ran and he'll put you on the map - let him know where you are and what color dot you want - blue = dem; purple = indie; red = rep; green = tiptoe (I think it has something to do with radical environmentalist, but I'n not clear on that). If you don't want to put a specific location here, you can e-mail him at "randall at isleofran dot org" and he will put your dot on the map.

nash - re: H divorcing B - you say that every election

Linda WI - I must agree with the previous posters - using the name Mr. Kenya - I assume you mean Barack Obama - is offensive and I would suggest you just quit that. Surely you can make your point in a less apopleptic manner. Also, if you're going to link a David Sirota column about Obama, in the name of full disclosure, he doesn't have much nice to say about Clinton, either. He's an equal opportunity criticizer.

and one other thing...although I'm sure Warren can defend himself, the attacks against him are pretty much over the top. I'm sure he reads, as do we all. Could we possibly raise the level of discourse a bit to avoid the personal affronts? Is that too much to ask?

colleen...

I have been trying to do exactly like you are and it always drifts back to the same old same old.

And I agree about the Warren attacks.

God Bless.

Alpha 1906

The National Archives has the records from the Texas Freedmen's Bureau.

http://www.archives.gov/research/african-americans/freedmens-bureau/

If someone in your family has not done it for your ancestor, it is a road you might like to travel. If you can identify the slave holder, you may (strange way to phrase this) luck out with wills, census, and household records that can be very detailed.

Most of folks around here are really sick of me telling them that they are responsible for the preservation of 200 years of history, but you're new so I can pick on you. :)

oooo...steal it.. that's rich, bri..

Oh, BTW, if you want to look at the map, click on blogroll under Links in the left banner, then click on the Map to the Stars button at the top of that screen. There's also a link there to Ran you can click to leave your info.

Re: The Map

Good idea to mention it, Pogo. you guys can scroll up the page and click on "Blogroll" in the links, then "Map to the Stars"

anon - we'll just keep trying

Warren

"It is EXACTLY the way Hillary conducts politics"

If that is true, why do so many of her Senate colleagues compliment her on her collegial talent for reaching consensus among divergent views?

hmm, theft of delegates - We find Howard Dean guilty as charged.

And I have to agree with anon-P and colleen. II'd love to see folks attack arguments and positions rather than people and avoid the snarky personal stuff altogether (and I don't claim to be completely innocent) - come August 30, we will all (well, most of us) be on the same team (I hope).

Ed, what's that they say about great minds?

Tylenol

they do read them. Hillary's camp just sent this out as a thank you.

http:/www.hillaryclinton.com/thankyou

*waves from up north* and shivers

That was a 'thanks for your comment" robo email.. i still dont know if they read 'em.. but thanks for the reply wendy..

i used my old address in Alburg VT... I hope they dont try to track me down or the new owners will be pissed off! lol

Colleen:

I've missed the over the top attacks on Warren. Can you quote some for me?

I'm just trying to get a sense of what might be considered over the top since I believe both sides are being pretty nice - passionate - but nice.

Does she read them - probably not - but someone reads them because someone had to decide which e-mails to use for the thank you e-mail.

So they read them.

alpha, i sure wouldn't recommend going to Kenya now. So many people are killing each other over the Presidential election. And we think WE'RE divisive.

Colleen apparently made an "over the top" comment about me a week or so ago. I am sure she'll remember.

Disclose tax returns. Don't disclose tax returrns. You guys are being silly.

Absent any election law to the contrary, the candidates are free to make their own decisions, and voters are free to make their choice based on "their perception" of the candidates' actions or inaction.

My guess is that the Clintons disclosed what they had to from 1992 through 2000, and will again if that becomes necessary. If you can't wait until then, vote for Senator Obama.

Or I guess if I had a favorite in this battle I could change my ending. If you really want to see the Clinton's tax return, make sure Hillary gets the nomination.

you know what crap is this? "Travelgate" I don't know who brought it up but what a bunch of bull. The President had the right to put whoever he wanted in charge of the White House travel office. It's pathetic that Democrats would start touting that as a reason to say Hillary is bad. PATHETIC, as usual.

Pogo,

Just because you're a better typist doesn't mean you're quicker.

I was going to say smarter, but I'd lose that battle too.

Oh Linda, congratulations... now you've been called a "racist" by white and pure Mr. NYC .. he who cannot be named. when will this stupidity stop?

I finally get home and tried to read through the comments that have been posted since I left this morning.....

but I gotta tell y'all.... it's getting kinda boring reading the same old arguments over and over again.....

oh.... and since Craig is a non-partisan..... I think it might be a bit more respectful to stop referring to a long time Senator and 5yr prisoner of war as "McBush"...... his name is McCain.... just sayin'.....

Colleen.... thanks for speaking up....

KGC.... agreed...... go Uno!

Posted this on MSNBC today:

Craig Crawford is the only person making sense right now. The MSNBC crew is not so much pro-Obama as they are anti-Clinton. Somewhere along the line the Clintons weren't suitably deferential to Matthews and Russert. It's a real turn-off and I would expect that the actual journalists (Williams, Brokaw) must be very embarrassed. MSNBC has been dumbed down (Morning Joe group complete with giggling Mika), I'm sure for the sake of ratings. Even Olbermann has lost all credibility. You can't come back from this. You have become the Fox of the left. It's truly unfortunate.

Then again, what can you expect from the network that brings us such highbrow entertainment as the "Predator" series? And what is it with all of those prison shows? What is the MSNBC demographic for that stuff?

you know what, EuroTom, you are one of the parties who perpetuates the problems here. I made an observation, I did not call you insulting names. Get off your high horse.

I am very weary of the Chelsea Clinton flap. The "pimping" comment was in bad taste, but please stop the pseudo outrage. This is not like the Rutgers basketball team. They were innocent. Chelsea Clinton is no child, and to all accounts, she knows what she is doing. Bottom line: If you are goint to get up on the political stage and campaign for anyone, be prepared to catch a few rotten tomatoes. Either that, or go home and finish leading a comfortable, unremarkable life. It's politics, the science of power. Get used to it.

Colleen:

Thanks for your support - but trust me - and I don't take these attacks personally (even though they can be incredibly frustrating).

Many people on this board have stuck their heads in the sand while Hillary is still in the fight. Looks like their golden calf will have to be completely beaten down to the ground before they will give an inch.

Thank goodness - I don't think the Republicans will be so stubborn. Although I don't always agree with their policies - many of them are at least sensible people.

If I was willing to throw around slurs as easily as the Clinton supporters - I would call Linda a racist too. But I am not - and I understand she is just a bitter partisan Clintonite.

I do not consider rebutting Warren as an attack. Warren deemed it important to send a roster on Barack's achievements---I feel as others do ---Hillary's achievements need to be noted in contrast.

Warren...
Jamie and I both keep a civil tone and don't do name calling....
we both voted for Clinton....

please.... don't lump us all together..... I hate this non-Clinton vs Clintonite stuff.... it's so goddamn immature.....

with that I off to read my book...... I need to learn something today.....

point of information - Ann Lewis is Barney Frank's sister

Why not Warren? Another "prominent" Obama supporter here did. The word "prominent" used lightly.

Sorry RR - I am not talking about you and Jamie.

ET, my little comment was buried in the middle of the night and was said with no malice. It is you who keeps bringing it up. And, just for clarification, I have never indicated my preferred candidate on this blog. We do agree on one thing, bravo free speech.

EuroTom:

Not all Obama supporters think alike. Probably because we are not sent out with a list of talking points to go slash and burn the other side.

We are a growing and diverse group that support him for many different reasons.

Ok well I found it insulting. I have far better taste than that. But I will let it go. I think this place brings out the worst in many of us.

You folks are really missing the point with MSNBC and the Clintons. Yes, some don't like Bill Clinton, but they will admit that he was an effective president. It doesn't take a Mensa to realize that Keith Olbermann wants to kidnap Bill, take him to Massachusetts to marry him if afforded the opportunity.

The problem is that they don't like Hillary because she lacks the skill set that allowed people to like her husband. As a casual observer, it is easy to see that if everything else was equal, he is more of a people person. The perception of Hillary is that she lacks spontaneity. That means that anything she does appears calculating to a fault. She is the one who called in Dick Morris in 1996. She was the policy wonk of his co presidency. She was willing to get help from the political devil to win another 4 years. It's legitimate to question that.

Guys like Russert and Matthews have lost a lot of credibility in my eyes because they never attacked Bush with the vim and vigor they have used towards HRC. Just because they have been too harsh, doesn't remove the fact that you do have to wonder about her and the other candidates.

Lastly, all of the candidates and posters in this blog need to take heed of the following:

There is a very fine line between being the smartest person in the room and a pompous know it all. WE HAVE ALL BEEN GUILTY OF THIS. THE CANDIDATES AND MEDIA HAVE AS WELL, (except for CC) If educated and supposedly civil people can't hold a normal conversation about what is important to us, how do we expect the world to do the same? How can we expect them to take us seriously?

Ya know Jim.. this is about so much more than the pimp comment.. it's about a pattern of misogyny.. it happens every hour of every day... and i dont expect men to 'get it'.. it's just a fact..

Warren point taken, but please, not all Hillary supporters think alike either. Let's be fair.

Colleen

Warren has been calling people names in this discussion just as much as people have been calling him names. Passive/aggressive is just as bad as active/aggresive.

Jack

First, I want to say that I admire those of you who want the democrats to still be democrats come August 30 and vote for whomever is nominated. That is not my position in this pursuit for the presidency.

Glbraith’s Law: “Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.”

well dog's eye... I don't know... maybe I am to blame. Ok, it's because I am a jerk. I seem to get the feeling that I am pointed out as the problem. But I think we are all just getting stressed out about the closeness of this thing and one side or the other thinking they've already won or about to win the damned nomination.

warren, I see you take the same approach I do - the rule for survival that all lawyers with half a brain take - don't take it personally. My wife, a divorce lawyer, learned that rule early in her practice and has survived that, the most brutal of all practices, as a result.

Isn't there at least a slight difference between passive/aggressive and active/agressive ; )

Just kidding. I realize that past a certain point - it all becomes counter-productive.

About lawyers... I am sure everyone has heard this one..

Why is it that SHARKS do not attack lawyers who are in water?

PROFESSIONAL COURTESY...

I hope someone will laugh at this...

Ya know, tylenol:

If I wasn't familiar with your comments, that "i dont expect men to 'get it'" comment would #### me off.
;-)

Jack

Sorry Bri Bri, I'm taken...

snarky
Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse. Origin: Snark="snide remark".

So THAT is what it means...I hate that word. Let's lose it here....it is in about every other goddam post.

What was it that Aretha sang? oh yeah...R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Some of you ought to Google that word. Or maybe you do know what it means and you just don't give a shit ...you believe "Im right and F_U_U_U_C_C_C_K_K YOU! "

BEAR! Glad to see you here. I left a note of well wishes for you yesterday.

Eurotom,

My Godfather & uncle, who recently passed away, was in the same Harvard Law class as Ralph Nader. I don't think he would be laughing...

Warren

In my neighborhood active agressive tends to use a baseball bat. ;-0

Jack

well I for one agree Dexter, but respect is a two way street is it not?

Bear I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Godfather / Uncle.

Warren's comment--"Many people on this board have stuck their heads in the sand while Hillary is still in the fight. Looks like their golden calf will have to be completely beaten down to the ground before they will give an inch. "

So Colleen---How do you interpret the message to the "many people"? Do the "many people" just take it? Is his statement to the " many people" productive conversation where someone will throw the ball back with-----yeah your right Warren.

NP...he never practiced a day of law in his life but he still wouldn't have liked the lawyer's are all scum joke...

well anyway, that wasn't my point. I am sure it is a great loss for you.

chick, let's let it pass. it looks like conventional wisdom has us all moving to higher ground

I think Bear brought up a great point.

One of Bill's greatest strengths was the ability to connect with people. He has that down home style that makes you think some guy from down the block is speaking intelligently about world issues. Most Republicans I know think he was effective, i.e., "cool", in his delivery.

Hillary is just as smart - but she does not have the same style. This has been a weakness that critics and fans of Hillary have pointed out for many years. Barack is really exposing that weakness.

Amen

Jack... :) I meant it more in a sociological experiment sense.. I dont think men are ... what's the word... attuned? perhaps.. to picking up on the subtleties of misgyny... the obvious things yes, Mr. Tylenol is not the most sensitive of men, but he knew the minute Shuster said it.. I heard a "ut-oh" from the livingroom... it's the ongoing..unchecked...unreported.. in some cases hateful (specially on Red news outlets..OMG!).. "reporting" going on.. it's so sad.. I really thought north americans were past this..

and Jack... want a beer?? :)

Ok my Amen comment was in response to Colleen's comment, not Warren's...

With really all due respect Warren, I would agree with you except I would change one word. I would say Barack is really exploiting that weakness. And that's just my point. He isn't the idealist he was at the 2004 Democratic Convention. He's also fallen into "politics as usual" which, at least in my mind, means that "change", real significant "change" will not happen. It's a buzzword.

Dex, good to see you back around - got your snow knobbies on your bike?

Dex, is Dex your real name? I think of that cartoon with Dexter's Laboratory! One of my favourites.

I think Obama offers the greatest potential for a real change of all the candidates.

If he fails - then he will just be a damn fine president regardless because he has the other skills as well.

Pogo,

do you know why all lawyers wear their shirts buttoned at the top?

Keeps the fore skin from sliding up over their head.

yo soy Horsedooyt!

stands behind nanny and nods enthusiastically...

In the states that have already voted, are the interest levels in the campaigns still as high as before they voted?

Looking for opinions....

Back in the comments Craig commented something to the point that he just ignores those that jerk his chain.

He also commented that the bully's will eventually LEAVE.

That may be true--but I also think other posters who aren't necessarily bully's who think they might have something to contribute LEAVE because they find this format to be time wasting craziness.

EuroTom:

I bet if you ask the Clintons themselves - they would agree part of a campaign is to exploit your opponents weakness. It is certainly what the GOP will do and it is what the Clintons have done with the "experience" argument.

Barack is just beating them.

Or maybe you do know what it means and you just don't give a shit ...you believe "Im right and F_U_U_U_C_C_C_K_K YOU! "

wrote Dexter eloquently.
______________________________________________________________

Ok I confess.. I can be very much like this. Especially if the adrenalin starts rising in me. For this I am sorry. Speaking only for myself, I get so passionate about what I believe in the deepest core of my soul. I left politics out of disillusionment, and left the USA for the same reason. Normally I don't even pay attention to these races, but this year it is so different! The whole thing is so divided in a way I never remember. For the record, I don't want Obama to lose; I want Hillary to win. I get ruffled feathers when someone makes a nasty Hillary comment because it just feels to me like she's being attacked for no legitimate reason. That's it... I am sorry for my over-passionate style.

hd and ET - Heard them all, love them all. Just to show I'm not a dick, I wear open collared shirts to work.

You can fool some of the people.... LOL

What are 100 lawyers on the bottom of the sea?

A good start.

chickadee.. ppl come and go around here.. ya get used to it.. i was MIA for a while myself.. life gets in the way...

The... "I'm right and @#%^& you!" , reminds my of the Bush Cheney mentality."

Jamie....I did that study where you send your DNA to National Geographic...and like all of us: Ich bin ein Ethopian.

Time will tell warren, time will tell.

There how Barack roll seems, orchestrated to me. It's almost as if the one after another endorsement of him (suddenly none of Hillary's colleagues can say a nice thing about her it seems) and then the work of the MSM has somehow been done in collusion. Does Ted Kennedy really have that much pull? You know, maybe Whoopi was wrong. Maybe Oprah DOES walk on water. I don't know.

Yes Nanny---why aren't we discussing issues. I tried threads back to ask about universal health care. No response. I wanted some sane information.

Maybe you can help me. I understand that universal healthcare covers everyone. I think Jamie told me that no claim could be denied.

I had asked---ifor example if one has private health insurance that does not cover dental---how can it not be denied when it isn't covered initially.

....make that "Ethiopian"

Burrito

Data point of one

For myself I'm relieved it is over for me. I flipped a coin before I went. I still don't know who I want to win. I had supper with my father in law. He said there was a lot of talk when he went to his group thearapy at the VA (old WWII vets.) monday. I think the whole country is ready to move on, I've never been in such agreement with my Republican friends and family. Bush seems to be the punch line for a lot of snide remarks and jokes.

Jack

hey burrito - I think thats...unlikely. badopdop.

omg I just read my last post. It lacks any eloquence.

EuroTom:

I think the endorsements - such as Kennedy and other power players - combat the Clinton argument that he lacks experience and is not ready.

And Oprah gives him an opportunity to address many people that would otherwise write him off. I think when people hear Obama for themselves - many of the Clinton arguments against him fall away.

EuroTom: I was also amused by the Travelgate remark. That's best they've got? Travelgate? Really? After what has been going on for the last 7 years Travelgate is a walk in the park.

I'm not a banker anymore. I run a gas station. I keep reinventing myself because I get bored.

It's a strange life... :-)

but point taken, thank you.

Ally I never understood the big deal of the change of personnel in the White House travel office. I am not a White House historian, but hasn't various Presidents (and their families) made staff changes when they became the residents of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Peeps,I gotta sleep... 5:45 am comes round very early. Come to think of it, if I am not sleeping enough, I get testy. hmmmm. GOODNIGHT :-)

Warren:

Do you think it is possible that the Oprah endorsement actually turned some people off? One of my friends in PA said that the Oprah endorsement was actually the thing that tilted her scale to Hillary. She sees Oprah as someone who is very interested in what is hip/trendy at the moment. In addition, she says that anyone who gave us Dr. Phil is not to be trusted.

I am not a big Oprah fan (I have never been able to be a regular watcher of the show due to work) but I do sense that many of my girlfriends have a titch of Oprah Fatigue.

I did go to the Oprah Obama rally in Cedar Rapids and it was very well attended and it was fun to see her in person.

Patsi,

If you have a living father or brother, you can get even more specific as to percentages from all the male strains in your heritage.

Unfortunately, the ladies can only pass along the mitrochondrial DNA which takes you back to one of the six Eves but no detail on the heritage.

"We are a growing and diverse group that support him for many different reasons."

Interesting. I'm wondering if some of the Obama supporters could each chime in with their different reasons for supporting him. I am sincerely curious.

" he still wouldn't have liked the lawyer's are all scum joke..."

Bear -- Every truly evil lawyer joke I ever heard was out of the mouths of lawyers. I used to work down the hall from a law office, and you couldn't pass by one ofthose guys who didn't say, "Hey, do you know what the difference between a lawyer and a ....." etc etc

"Passive/aggressive is just as bad as active/aggresive."

I was just thinking the same thing Jack - I noticed that Warren can dish it out as well. Sounds like Colleen can too.

I understand what people say about tone and while today things appear strained...since I've been here the conversation is pretty good. I just want to make sure there is not the same double standard going on with Obama supporters as there is with the Obama campaign. Obama gets away with what the Clintons don't. Obama supporters get away with what Clinton supporters cannot.

I agree though...we should all try to be nice.

Oh...and I meant SOME Obama supporters.

heheheheh, I actually bought a couple Dr. Phil books... WHAT WAS I THINKING???

I am just sitting here thinking, and I guess we should maybe stop trying to convince each other of the merits of our preferred candidates. I get the feeling most of us are entrenched. And let's be fair. At the end of the day we really don't know who is winning, correct? Obama has gotten most of the positive press and has done very well recently. We can't say Hillary is losing, and we can't say Obama is winning. Perhaps that is what adds to the frustration. For me, I want clarity. But that will only come when the last states votes are tallied. I hope this doesn't carry over to the convention. I'm not sure all of us could handle the suspense. My Italiano is bugging me to go to sleep.

bye

I think Obama is really inspirational to people who are looking for it....This is not an insult.

But if you are already working hard, trying to make a difference, seeing change in your life and feeling pretty good in the "inspirational category, " his message may sound a bit empty.

In my experience people who make change, know just how difficult it is, and can be, to accomplish the smallest steps of change.....and the short phrases, well, kind of sound like gimmicky slogans.

It's a matter of perspective, one is not better then the other. Just a different view. ... and yes I think age and life time experiences plays a huge role in perspective.

one more cow...heheheheh that pic ... LOL... was very funny. I had to google Dexter Gordon. Now I know... How about a real pic? I fact, shouldn't we have like a pic posting page or something?

I can tell you that as a diabetic, someone with high blood pressure, filled with allergies, et al, I am GRATEFUL for having such excellent health care. In the end, having everyone covered saves money because procedures are paid for, and those who are super healthy basically subsidize the system. When I tell belgians about so many people being without health care, they just shake their heads. They don't understand how the richest country in the world can allow this to take place.

EuroTom: Are you telling us to cut the chaos and get real? : )

pogo: I normally ride all-year round...I have a couple old wide-tire bicycles which I ride through snow, even. But this snow and constant below 10 degrees F temps have stopped me , well....cold.
Right now, I am just warming a bit from shovelling ...it's snowing quite hard...they say this one will be five more inches, but it did warm up to 12 degrees.
My daughter called me on her cell Sunday.
She lives in Las Vegas, NV, and had just ridden ten miles on her cross-bike.
It was 66 degrees and sunny.
She just wanted to rub it in.

"I think the endorsements - such as Kennedy and other power players - combat the Clinton argument that he lacks experience and is not ready."

See...I would suggest just the opposite. I think you give Kennedy too much credit for making a decision where he won't have some kind of influence. I think Kennedy has no influence over the Clintons i think he will over Obama. I think that's why he endorsed him...not because he's the best candidate but because it's politics. Both sides play politics. But this is my opinion.

ummm Ally, that sounds good. Yeah, I'm saying that :D

Nanny--thank you for answering. I don't hear either of the candidates thoroughly explaining their plan. Isn't it ironic we are all supporting somebody---but do we really thoroughly know what the issues are we are supporting.

Ally:

I agree. I have heard some push back from people on the Oprah endorsement. Unfortunately, some people see it as playing the race card. I try to explain that I saw it as an attempt to gain access to the huge amount of loyal female supporters Clinton has.

I have always been a fan of Oprah (even though I don't watch the show much anymore). She strikes me as a sincere and thoughtful woman. I think she could be a great asset to an Obama presidency in terms of keeping people active and informed.

EuroTom - you make a fine point.

I'm a registered independent in MA and have voted both Democrat & Republican in the past, also a white male that voted for Duval Patrick for Governor (no Bradley effect in my booth). I'm 90% certain that I will vote Democrat in the general, I voted for Hillary in the MA primary, because I like where she stands and she's the only candidate in both races with the actual resolve and backbone to get things done. I love political debate and discussion of the issues and the actual merits and weaknesses of candidates. That conversation is all but lost these days, I find myself jumping from blog to blog, channel to channel (cable, network, sirius, xm) out of frustration of not finding an actual conversation - just constant back handed remarks at Clinton and this unending Jonestown worship from 'reporters' when talking about Obama. It's refreshing to know that whether or not I agree with what Craig says on his blog each day, there is a place to for me to turn for an unbiased honest comment on the days events. Unfortunately I'll probably not be able to catch him on MSNBC for awhile, the ever present glint in her eyes and irritating smirk on Mika's face this morning when setting up her Obama worship with a Clinton swipe - talking about Huckabee - "...he say's he's 'in it to win it'..." then slight laugh, soon followed by Obama worship was enough for now - I've dubbed her Mika Obamabitz - I'm hoping the media will eventually stop the American Idol run for the presidency, but I'm doubtful - so it's up to the few unbiased commentators like Craig to keep my head from exploding for the rest of the year. I tend to like facts, guess I'm odd that way.

I am really sorry to hear that nanny. I am starting a diet at the end of the month, doctor prescribed, just to try and get the diabetes further under control. I don't want to have to go to injections. I won't tell you how much I pay because I think you'd be angry, but it's significantly less that you do...

"As Clinton pollster Mark Penn told Chris Cillizza, “The Republican attack machine redefines the Democratic candidate.” Fortunately (or unfortunately) for Clinton, there’s nothing left to define. But in the case of Obama, there are millions of Americans who know little about him or his far-left views. His lack of experience makes him even more vulnerable. It is for this reason that I would give McCain the edge in a head-to-head matchup with Obama. I’m not so sure the same is true against Hillary"
http://www.taylormarsh.com/

euro Tom: By the way...that pic was really a Dexter cow. We had fun with that topic a few weeks ago here.

Maybe you never saw the old Crawfordslist video...Sheila is the chef, Jamie the owl lady, Colorado Bob has the sombrero, Craig has the baloney sandwich, and I am standing in front of my old VW Microbus with my daughter's Blue Heeler doggie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eefpydKD4v8

guess as a source I'll quote conventional wisdom. You may find more solid figures to prove one of us right, but I'm guessing you'd agree on the more enrolled Dems. than Reps. statement.

Posted by: EdVB

you are right. it is not a majority. It is more than independents and Republicans and to dog's point until this year Independents (or declined to states) were the fastest growing segment . But still a smaller segment than either Democrats or Republicans although after this year I don't think there will be any Republicans left.

RR
I was willing to give up Tucker Faye but I am not sure about McBush. It is one way of tying him to Shrub but I will think about it.

Go Uno and Democrats.

This primary process is just way too long........when is the half-time break???

Here is an interesting analysis of the Belgian health system: http://www.econ.kuleuven.be/ew/academic/econover/Papers/wphcref.pdf

Really now goodnight....

Thanks, jamie - you do a better job of researching this stuff than I do.

Anybody notice the flags are at half staff? Tom Lantos, Congressman from CA...San Leandro, I believe, passed a day or two ago. His story should be mandatory reading...no, it should be in every US history , government, and civics school book. He survived the Holocaust.

McCain: ‘Anyone Who Worries About How Long We’re In Iraq Does Not Understand The Military’
Speaking to reporters in Richmond, VA last night, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) attacked “anyone” who points out that he is “fine” with keeping U.S. troops in Iraq for 100 or more years. “Anyone who worries about how long we’re in Iraq does not understand the military and does not understand war,” said McCain.

He then added that it is “really almost insulting to one’s intelligence” to question “how long we’re in Iraq” because he believes the current “strategy” is “succeeding.” Watch it:
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/12/mccain-understand-military/

Burrito:

While I think Obama's inspiration will be great for everyone on this board - it will be even more important to the millions that often do not pay any attention to politics.

And, the Dems caved again. Why do we even bother to put a new administration in place? They're all the same with few exceptions: protect corporations and screw civil liberties!

Jamie----in regards to dental---are you saying that private insurance companies will Have to offer dental---or are you saying if they don't a government program will?

What happens in regard to elective plastic surgeries, botox, hair implants, and that kind of thing?

This was third vote on FISA and they knew it wasn't going to pass. She voted with the Dems both of the other times and issued a public statement.

Edwards did the most on the issue, Clinton second and silent Obama issued a statement after the first vote was taken.

warren - I don't know why you think Obama will have more political capital to use after being elected - that is usually a function of the size of the mandate and the groups voting for the candidate, which we can't know at this point - he hasn't even won the nomination yet.

I differ on which candidate would be more effective working across the aisle. Hillary is more of a centrist, which is who I would expect to be able to more easily reach across the aisle to centrist repugs. Obama is, rightly or wrongly, perceived to be more leftist. He has further to reach to reach across the aisle and fewer Repugs to attract to his positions to the extent that they are viewed as further left than Hillary's. That said, I believe his approach to healthcare is likely more to the liking of the Repugs on a couple of levels - it doesn't force the insurance industry to do much of anything and it cuts taxes (although the bulk of the benefit is to an, ummm, nontraditional target group as Repugs go.).

So, would someone tell me how we're going to get change if the two leading Dems are opposed to FISA and they can't convince their Senate colleagues to join them in opposition to the Repugs and BushCo?

econsmed

Craigs take on things is why I turned here as well.

Didn't Obama mis the first vote on the FISA bill? Or was that some other "crucial" bill? I've had enough of your false piety for the day - gotta go.

VERY COOL VIDEO... Dex you look like so many of my relatives... STURDY STOCK. Jamie reminds me of an Earth Mother and Sheila reminds me of how great the restaurants are here where there are real chefs... I don't really know Colorado Bob... I see Ms. Tylenol because she has the same pic on her type key. Others I am not sure who they are. That song has been played at KAOS radio a lot where I used to program and beg for money. http://www.kaosradio.org . Oh and Craig looks a lot thinner in this video. OOPS, hope he doesn't read this..

NOW FOR REAL, I am gone... :)

http://www.myspace.com/eurotom

Pogo:

My point is based on the diverse and growing support Obama has won all over the country - as well as genuine praise from Independents and Republicans - despite the fact his positions are perceived as more to the left than Clintons.

There is REAL potential here people and he has accomplished all of this without the millions and millions of hard working and active Clinton supporters. Just imagine the power he could wield with the Clinton machine behind him instead of against him.

Sorry sorry everyone - but is just makes me so excited to think about.

Chickadee,

The Hillary plan would open all of the plans available to Congress to the general public. The government would negotiate the coverage required except that they will be doing it for over 300 million people not just Congress.

This would dramatically drop the costs purely from competition for access to this huge pool of clients. You would select the policy that best fits your family needs. If you current policy comes from one of these current "Congressional" insurers then there would be no change other than added benefits (dental / mental) and probable drop in cost.

For those middle class folks whose employer does not purchase their coverage as a benefit, a tax benefit of approx 3500 would be in place. If you are below a certain monetary threshhold, then the government would pick up the tab in much the same way that they pick up Medicare now.

Cost savings will come from "well care" when costs are low rather than "crisis care" at hospitals. Large pools will drop costs as well. Government bargaining will drop cost even more.

Don't let the Obama version of Harry and Louise lying about mandated coverage fool you. It is just as much of a lie as the Bush harry and Louis commercial that he ran to undercut Medicare.

The vote was 97-31 against removing the immunity provision

Here are the names of the Democrats who voted with the Republicans

Sens. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Evan Bayh (D-IA), Daniel Inouye (D-HI), Tim Johnson (D-SD), Herb Kohl (D-WI), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Mark Pryor (D-AR), Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Ken Salazar (D-CO), Tom Carper (D-DE), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Jim Webb (D-VA), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Kent Conrad (D-ND), and Debbie Stabenow (D-MI).
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/senate_votes_for_retroactive_i.php

NEW THREAD

So, would someone tell me how we're going to get change if the two leading Dems are opposed to FISA and they can't convince their Senate colleagues to join them in opposition to the Repugs and BushCo?

Posted by: eprof2 | February 12, 2008 4:53 PM

worth reposting.

Give Obama credit for trying to stop BushCo and the telecoms by voting yea on the amendment to strip the immunity from FISA. Clinton should have voted and her absence, even in a losing cause, will hurt her.

To Eurotom,

I was in the House for a while. The WH travel Office had A-Political or government workers that were not involved in politics.

These people had been taking care fo the Press Office, White House Communications Agency, and the Secret Service since the 1970's.

Quite a few were within 5 years of retirement from Government. These people were sumarialy tossed from the White House with no notice.....

The Clintons installed a cousin and several friends. The travel office service disolved into a mess of missed flights.....It was terrible.

The Clintons used their position to just plain drop these people from government service and ruined their carreers....I'm still breathless from it.

What is the Epilog? Three of them sued the CLintons and the Clintons settled out of court equaling their returement.

Also, legislation was instituted to protect the next ones that get this type of over the line treatment of the little guy.

So you asked. I was their. I was on Matthews show when He had my ex-compatroits on to talk when the suit was over....My friends were still devestated to have been attacked by the Office of the President of the United States.

Sorry....you asked.....

Chickadee

"Jamie----in regards to dental---are you saying that private insurance companies will Have to offer dental---or are you saying if they don't a government program will? What happens in regard to elective plastic surgeries, botox, hair implants, and that kind of thing?
"
From what I understand, companies that want to be part of the consortium will have to offer dental and mental coverage. I don't know all the details on the Congressional plans now, but I believe several of them do.

I haven't heard anything about elective surgeries. I doubt the purely cosmetic ones would be covered under the plan. You will just have to pay for the enlargement and face lift on your own.

Now there are some elective surgeries that are medically based that are also cosmetic i.e. cleft pallate, hip replacements, facial restructures that would probably be covered.

Chickadee,

I can speak a little on health care, but don't pretend to know the ins and outs of Hillary's plan. I'd disagree with a statement that says, "No claim can be denied," and go more for, "No applicant can be denied."

I'd hope that elective surgery for cosmetic reasons would not be covered by a universal plan. God bless those who want it and can pay for it, but I don't want my premium affected by those choices.

There are other types of procedures for which coverage could be debated, but I put that out as an example.

Libertarians and Tucker Carlson recoil at the idea that Hillary wants to "mandate" coverage for everyone. My guess is that most of those folks either have decent coverage, or sufficient wealth not to need it.

Because I work for a company that sells health insurance, (We like to say "provides health insurance") I often tell people health insurance is not like an umbrella. You can't wait until you need it in order to buy it. It sounds cruel that insurance companies won't cover pre-existing conditions, but that's one of their draconian practices that I will defend.

In New York state we improved that situation years ago, and federal laws have pretty much conformed to what New York has been doing regarding a "waiting period" before a pre-existing condition can be covered.

There are reasonable arguments for and against every plan out there. For one, I'd like to keep my job, so I have some bias against a single-payer system, unless, of course, it's us. ***I'm kidding a little, but can you imagine the impact on the economy, if every private health insurer and BlueCross BlueShield office was suddenly put out of business by a government agency?

I'm going on too long here, so I'll end with this. Hillary wants to extend coverage using much of what's in place, i.e. private insurers. That sounds like a boon to the insurance industry, and it probably is. It's still a competitive marketplace, and plenty of regulation, so those companies will be controlled, unlike the oil companies that have experienced exorbitant profits under the Bush-Cheney administration.

Soprry for the length. Craig probably has a new thread by now anyway.

EuroTom

If you haven't staggered off to bed. For face forward in the video, I'm also the one standing with the statue (I'm the one on the right) taken when I was in Scotland.

RELOAD NEW THREAD

I'm Republican. I've always hated the Clintons: first due to Bill's actions degrading the prestige of the WH but later due to his lies. However, my hate of HC wasn't quite clear until now.

When I read blogs and viewer comments, I noticed HC supporters are rabid and full of hate. Reflective of the candidate, HC supporters spew anger and have an irrational sense of victimhood and it's never HC's fault or BC's fault. Well, it is his/her fault and might as well face it. As for victimhood, hey you reap what you sow. I look forward to this election, not to see HC lose (which is a bonus) but to see HC supporters cry and make up further silly excuses. Victim are always victims--plain fact and simple. Also should Republicans lose? So be it. Obama is running an impressive campaign and if he wins, he would've done it fairly and good for him.

HC supporters....get a life or lose the hate.

You want real FACTS and not propagnad: ._http://votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=55463 ._ The American public has to start being less apt to listen to the BS and start investigating the facts on their own to become more aware and more educated wothout the bias and influences from outside opinions and critics. Happy hunting. It's very refreshing and makes much more sense.