Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Hi Craig...home from jury duty...I was actually thinking about this very thing driving to the courthouse.

Hey...I was first, but I haven't read the other posts to catch-up!

MSNBC is now reporting the new delegate count as :
838 Obama
834 Clinton.
What happened???

Post from last thread:

Interesting statistics from last night: Obama won all of the caucuses. Thus far, Obama has won all of the caucuses minus Nevada. States holding primary elections the "score" is 10 for Clinton and 8 for Obama.

DND mentioned that he didn't think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?

The statistics I just posted point to the reason why HRC doesn't support caucuses in FL or MI. If the DNC is really interested in full participation they should support a new election.

where can you find the true delegate count? The counts are all over the place. which one is correct

Gidget | February 6, 2008 1:18 PM
cbs has 974 to 905
cnn has 820 to 728

I think we need to just watch until they do the math.

I believe this most likely will come down to Florida and Michigan. And I do not think the Spring Caucus thing will work as most of the states have already voted and how fair will that look? It will really tear the party up. Since they went ahead an voted anyway (and wanted to do so early), they just need to penalize them by delegate count not erasure. I mean who really wants Florida to have yet another vote? I bet they will compromise on the number of delegates. In hindsight, BO should have placed his name on the ballot anyway in Michigan. Maybe they will just redo the Michigan thing...split thinking again.

I still have to find out who won New Mexico. I am really wondering where the Edwards vote went nationally.

I think Florida and Michigan have different circumstances.

Florida is holding caucuses to elect the delegates but they consider the 1/29 vote to be binding.

Michigan is a much different situation and could have easily been avoided whereas in Florida the Democrats were just along for the ride. IMO, Democrats in Florida are going to be pretty angry if the delegates are not seated given the assurances from Dean and Pelosi. Of course if you are whistling past Dixie and have abandoned the fifty state strategy maybe you don't care anymore.

"DND mentioned that he didn't think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND? What do you think Craig?" -- Posted by: eprof2

it's not that caucuses like Colorado are unimportant, eprof2, it's just that for Obama to impress and win over more of the 800 or so superdelegates (party big wigs who could end up deciding this thing), he's got to show muscle in a diverse and populous primary. for instance, winning a sizable margin of the popular vote in Ohio, Texas or Pennsylania could get the attention of enough superdelegates to put him over the top

repost from previous thread. You folks are moving faster than I can write.

I listened to some of Obama's speech last night. I loved his story about his first experience with community organizing. It was dead on true. Been there ,done that and I've got a draw full of T shirts. His story could be my story. I took a 3 week vacation and worked a local neighborhood. Knocked on doors, passed out flyers , talked to people and got to know them on a first name basis. Then we had the organizing meeting. Nobody showed up.
Now up to this point anybody can be an organizer. It is the next step that proves who you are.
There is nothing like the total rejection you feel when you are setting in that empty room with unopen cans of soda and a stack of snacks that no one has touched.

So what do you do?

Do you quit?
Or do you get up the next morning and come up with another idea and keep beating your head against that wall.

The rest Obama' speech had the standard political boiler plate. I don't even remember it. I just remember our seperate but shared moment when we looked out a window, shook our heads and said "WTF do I do now?"

I could have voted for him just for that.

Jack

If she's nominated maybe HRC will select UNcommitted as a running mate, seems 'UN' gave her a good race in MI.

"for the two states to begin anew and hold party caucuses in the spring. But the Clinton campaign has labored to rally state officials in Florida and Michigan to avoid such a move."

Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.

L-in-W-
The SF Chronicle is reporting
Barack Obama 673
Hillary Rodham Clinton 784

MSNBC is the only place I can find BO ahead...
suspicious.....hmmm.

MSNBC is the only place I can find BO ahead...
suspicious.....hmmm.

They must use Karl Rove's math.

Here's my bet, and suggestion - seat and award FL delegates in proportion to the outcome of the primary - no one campaigned there, so no one is prejudiced by doing that. Let Michigan hold a caucus or primary and seat and award delegates based on the outcome. Obama removed his name from the ballot (Why I'll never know) so it would be unfair to award those delegates to Hillary.

BW, here's CNN's report of NM as of about an hour and 1/2 ago - Obama - 49%, Hillary 48% (Reflects significant rounding error) with Obama holding a 71 vote advantage out of about 130,000 votes cast. 98% of the vote reported.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#NM

Chairman Duncan of the Republican party just laid out the Talking Points against the Dem in the general:

Can Hillary Clinton Be Trusted?

Is Barrack Obama ready for the responsibility of Commander In Chief?

If those are actually going to be their main talking points, then I would rather fight with a "trust" issue than with an "incompetent: one.

As opposed to obama who went to Florida in sept and said he would support seating the delegation.
But has changed his mind since he didn't win.

Obama Motto
"If I didn't win it was either rigged or racist"
or my personal favorite, the early voters are stupid.

KGC-
Re: Karl Rove Math-
Even FOX is reporting

Hillary Clinton 845

Barack Obama 765

Or Bush's "fuzzy math" remember that one?

The delegate thing is not standard on any of the major web sites. Now CNN has 811 to 720.............I think they are all trigger happy.

Craig, I saw Dean on MSNBC, and then on CNN. His talking points got smoother for the latter. I think he was on Matthew, where he tried to get Dean to say that it wasn't fair to seat the delegates.

I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?

Anyone who believes anything from BONBC regarding delegate count has been asleep through a week of blogs. We might need to check the family truckster for CO emmissions. The CNN delegate count seems to be accurate.

Geez...I live here and can't find any results, but it looks like BR did get less votes that JE. What was final vote in New Mexico?

Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what's going on in caucuses that's different from elections. My suspicion is, having gone to more than one caucus in WA state, is that only the truly committed, with time and money and envelope stuffing, are attending the caucuses, woefully under-representive of the population as a whole, whereas the general electorate can more easily go to an election polling place, cast their ballot, and leave feeling like they've done their civic duty.

Yep, even Huffington(GObama)Post's live delegate says Clinton's delegate lead is 79.

eprof2,
"DND mentioned that he didn't think the Obama caucus win in Colorado was particularly significant. Why is that DND?"

My point was that as Colorado has a closed caucus, it's not necessarily representative of a state that has a large number of independents and independent minded people in each party.

Probably my bias against caucus' is showing.

Here's what is significant: the Democrats had about twice the number of caucus goers as the Republicans. Of those who attended Democratic caucus' two thirds went for Obama. Colorado has a significant Hispanic population. Colorado was Hispanic before Colorado was a territory.

Had Colorado had a primary rather than a caucus, we'd have a better feel for how the voters in the state lean.

eprof2,
I meant to write what you said in your 2:02 post.

BW, click on the link in my 1:52 p.m. post for the NM results. You're right about BR getting fewer vores than JE, by a bit more than half.

Blond

With 98% reporting NM is

Clinton 65,293 49% 0
reporting
Obama 65,271 48% 0
Edwards 2,014 2% 0
Richardson 1,171 1% 0

Didn't Richards get out before Edwards? That might explain the differences in totals if NM has early voting?

hey dnd,

One of our long timers who is not here often is asking if you would write.

The only way I could think of is my email chefstonesheila at gee mail dot com

If you want to find out, let me know and I will help with this transistion. lol ;0)

Thanks, Pogo

Here is CNN delegate info

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D

Craig,

You probably can't say this to Dan on air, but it would be nice if you tell him that we appreciate him calling out the media for their blatant bias. (But) it is extremely obvious that the avoids talking about his own network, who are the worst abusers!

I suppose he really can't call out his own network. Just let him know that when he says "the media", we know he means his own network too, and we understand that he can't call them out but it's in his mind when he's doing it.

I never tune to faux snooze but between cnn and msnbc, msnbc is just horrible.. i mean last night they were just horrible. Right before commerical Joe S was reading a statement that the Hillary campaign released and when he was done, he burst out laughing. You could hear them all laugh as they went to commercial.

I sent msnbc numerous emails last night but in this particular one I said they should all be fired. The bias and unprofessionalism of Chris, Keith, Joe, (who else?), guest Howard, they were all dispicable.

Sad to say, this tornado disaster is taking some of the media off their intended game today of smearing Hillary.

New Mexico...update two minutes ago

Clinton 66,173 49% 0 98%
reporting
Obama 65,963 48% 0
Edwards 2,025 2% 0
Richardson 1,181 1% 0
Uncommitted 402 0% 0
Full New Mexico Democratic Exit Poll »Democratic vote by GenderDemocratic vote by Age44%
56%
8%
18%
38%
36%


Male Female 18-29 30-44 45-59 60+

I think the whole caucus concept should be thrown out. In Kansas AND Colorado, they only went to caucuses so they could throw the cost on the parties and counties. And as I said, the ones in Kansas were phoney as a three dollar bill. Pre-determined by party regulars. Plus, I read a few blog reports about how the caucuses can be intimidating for many --that ain't the American way.....

MSNBC is now reporting the new delegate count as :
838 Obama
834 Clinton.
What happened???

Posted by: Gidget | February 6, 2008 1:18 PM

Yes and they keep emphasizing that "Obama leads!"

but their figures appear to be inaccurate. Of course the #'s will change but cnn is usually correct and their delegate count, whether you include super delegates or not, have Hillary on top.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/scorecard/#D

ah the spin of the msm to always put Obama in a good light.

"I read somewhere that the leading candidate may seat the delegates. What is your take on that?" Posted by: Linda-in-Wiscosnin

yes, a candidate who controls a majority of the convention delegates can seat them or not at their will (for instance, if Obama gets to the convention with a slim majority and seating Florida/Michigan would switch the victory to Clinton, obviously he would choose to shut out those states) -- but if both candidates are short of a controlling majority at convention time, that would trigger a credentials cmte fight unless some other resolution is found

On a lighter note - Mellencamp isn't amused at McCain using his songs.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/02/04/mellencamp-asks-mccain-to-stop-using-tunes/

Shelia,
the gmail is in the gmail ;)

Blonde-
I just read that New Mexico has 16,870 provisional
ballots that they didn't start counting until 2:00 PM (EST)
so I don't think those numbers are in the totals yet.
~G

Just emailed the results to my sis and there were two emails waiting -- one from Howard Dean and one from Hillary -- mo' money.

HD talking about McBush. I am just feel that McBush is not going to make it to election time...like I stated yesterday if it is a McBush/Huckster ticket

soon-to-be flatliner and a flat brain

Just can't shake that feeling.

"Agreed, Craig, but my question wants to get to the bottom of what's going on in caucuses that's different from elections." -- eprof2

-- for all the reasons you go on to cite, eprof2, many party regulars view caucuses as merely measurements of organizing strength/depth of support, etc.

big-state primaries measure appeal across the surface, and both skill sets are needed for a nominee to succeed in November

Yeah that sounds like someone who honestly and fairly supports voting rights.

Posted by: Rezdog | February 6, 2008 1:50 PM

How about fairness and honesty in the facts surrounding Fla and Mich?

Long before we knew who would come out on top in those states, all the party talking heads in those states said they were sure they'd be seated at the convention and teh Dem party wouldn't risk alienating so many (millions) of voters. Fla could swing Dem which is huge for 2008.. the party can't risk angering Fla voters.. and they are angry they may be ignored.

A re vote is a JOKE! on every level. Hillary won Fla, time for people to swallow the truth.

Back a couple months ago there was a statement made by Nancy Pelosi regarding this. Dean too. that their authority ends when the doors to the convention open, and that who ever was in the lead was highly likely to seat the delegates from those 2 states, that alienating people in those states would be a disaster for the dem party.

The dem party f'd up badly in such a harsh penalty, now they must swollow their stupidity and do what's fair, and that's to seat those delegates. If I lived in florida where Hillary got more than 800,000 votes, more than any candidate of either party in any state (at the time), I would be infuriated too if my party chose to ignore those votes.

BONBC...biggest case of denial I have seen since Faux News

I believe, I understand the grief cycle guys, but loss is like that , I suppose. Eventually they will get to acceptance. Or maybe not....didn't Tweetie have a life size photo Grandma Obama sitting in chair next to him yesterday.

Mr. Hardballs!

Thanks for putting a reality check on caucas and primary. I was not understanding until now.

Looks like this year is the year the Baby Boomers get a great taste of a full on everything counts election.

I think that Hillary taking care of business in Mich. and Florida was just good sound political insight. Why would the candidates or the dem party want to turn off support in to important states like those----Florida in particular.

Obama not taking these states seriously shows poor judgement on his part as well as political immaturity.

If he gets the nomination in the fall he and the democratic party should thank Clinton for holding some good will in these states.

Thank you Bill Maher for giving me a RFLMAO moment.

http://www.rollingstone.com/photos/gallery/17538811/dickheads_of_the_year

Patsi, I agree - scrap the caucus system - it is ridiculous. Reminds me of village stonings. In all seriousness, I think it is undemocratic and runs counter to the concepts of secret ballot and one person, one vote.

Vacancy rate of homes highest in more than 40 years.

AVerages are 4 - 5%, but some cities are over 10%

If you have money, now is the time to go house hunting.

new obama whiner oops I mean email is blasting the clinton years.

ohhh the whining he does,

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_directly_attacks_bills_p.php

New Mexico went to a caucus format in 2004. And unlike the Iowa caucus, it is simply a paper ballot. Again, the New Mexico dems ave a really crappy ground game....it was obvious in 2004.

Craig puts up an interesting rationale for the caucus, but I've got to agree with Patsi and pogo. This is no way to select candidates for president.

The Mahar description of George Bush is a thing of beauty:

Come on, no list of assholes and fuck-ups could be complete without the Dipshit in Chief. Who will tell this president what everyone but him already knows? The theory of evolution. And the times tables. And where the sun goes at night. And that Iraq is going to be three different countries. And that everyone hates us and we've run our military into the ground and the Taliban is back and we still haven't caught bin Laden and the economy is tanking and we wasted eight years blowing the oil companies while the Earth is melting. We had a pretty nice house when this Cat in the Hat of presidents came in and made the mess of all time. And who's going to clean it all up — Rudy Giuliani?

I agree with you Craig---

Obama can't go against the inclusion of Mich. and Florida because he can't appear to want to disinfranchise voters in these states. If he did keep the delegates out and win the nomination that way------would they support him in the fall or would they still be angry and vote McCain?

Latest from CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/candidates/

jamie - the housing market is a near disaster, but I'd only go house hunting if I thought the housing market has hit bottom - and I don't. I'd wait until the first month that reports of housing market rebound surface, then I'd wait another month to see if it holds.

Little Barry may find that the "party insiders" who hold superdelegate status will make up their own minds, and don't really care what a greenhorn on the national stage thinks of the system. Now how's this go? get rid of Florida, Michigan, and superdelegates and we can win if we have more pledged delegates going into the convention? Let's see if he sings the same tune if Hillary has more pledged delegates in August. Any bets on that one?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html

I watched some of the returns last night with the neighbors. She's for Hillary, he's for Obama and their daughter, who will be eligible to vote is seriously for Obama. Their daughter, who is really bright, told me that her generation, who has largely been criticized for not being engaged is now finally engaged and it's primarily because of Obama.

I asked her what would happen if Obama lost. She told me her generation would once again feel disaffected and that the big money machines control everything. I told her of the same feelings I felt when I was her age and people voted for Nixon over McGovern, and encouraged her to stay engaged. She told me that her generation's payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn't bail us out.

I told you she was smart!

Who keeps the OFFICIAL count of the delegates?

Pogo,

Oh I know it is going lower even if it isn't likely to ever get low enough for me, but I'm always mindful of the old dictate: Buy land they aren't making any more of it.

Before the fall began I saw that the home I bought in 1964 for 21,900 sold for 500,000 last year. Unfortunately for me, the ex sold it for 30,000 and somehow neglected to give me half. drat!

"Who keeps the OFFICIAL count of the delegates?" --Posted by: truebeliever

that's the fun of this thing, truebeliever -- there really is no OFFICIAL count until the first ballot in Denver, or the second, or the third, or .......

dnd lolol I love a smart youngen.

I find my own son to be more engaged too. He said it was time to kick us all to the curb and start again before we REALLY screw it up.

Move over moms and pops. ;0)

dnd

It used to be called the generation gap.

Much of what is going on here, has been going on since the beginning of time...

Are we really any different than our ancestors? We just have more technology. And I can tell you nothing ages me faster than technology.

Craig---

thank you for the answer? Great so we have to listen to all these speculations and opinions until then.

Well that just makes me think that Clinton is even smarter for staying with Mich and Florida.

Craig thanks for the reply about seating delegates. I don't feel that Obama would be willing to lose MI & FL in the general. On-the-hand, he may lose if they are seated.

Why isn't there a keeper of the delegates?

We are having a major snow storm up here today.........no school, so no tutoring for me..........so, I get to play on the computer today.

jamie, "It's the land, Katie Scarlett." They may not be making more of it, but they are putting more of it out there for sale so be patient. It may even get low enough for you. Been on both sides of the story - bought one house that sold for exactly what I bought it for five years before (of course, with commission, I made less than I paid for it but got the tax advantage of the interest deduction for those 5 years - probably a wash) and had one once that sold for 20% more than I bought it for 4 MONTHS before. And I know people who have done much better and much worse than I. Nutty markets.

If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I'm for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring) Don't you think that should he find himself short on delegates and she wins the election, that it would be his responsibility to the party to see that his voters stay engaged?

A "take my ball and go home attitude would be quite unbecoming of any nominee

"The Fix" Winners and Losers column is interesting.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/

trueleliever -- pledged delegates are held to voting for the candidates they are sent to represent,(but anything goes if no one wins on the first ballot) -- so the numbers of pledged delegates in each state will be fairly hard (and officially tabulated by each state's elections office). un-pledged superdelegates are a wild card, can do whatever they like

True,

I'd expect nothing less from Both Candidates.

Why can't BONBC and Faux News rumble like this??

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/06/tv.conan.stewart.colbert.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

"If Obama is so inspiring, (which even though I'm for Clinton I do find him quite inspiring)" truebeliever

I find him reflecting a cult leader. Look at your major cults, church leaders, and horrible state leaders of history. The chanting really scares me. The Beatles had the same affect on the young. Some just find it easier to have someone to think for them, than to think for themselves; like the high school clicks!! Brainwashing doesn't care about your age, education, background, gender or racial aspects.

Matthew's just said that if Hillary won, his followers would be heart broken, and she would have to put him on the ticket. IMO that is the worse thing she could do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/opinion/16krugman.html?pagewanted=all

the myth of the social security insolvency.
If that is the attitude and understanding of young people supporting Obama, then there is even less reason to respect their opinion.

having done the caveats, here's what i'm using to watch delegates:

our own at CQ; http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=104

and AP's tracker: http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/campaign_plus/delegate_tracker/

Matt Man on one of my favorite blogs came up with this description of the Dem candidates:

Obama won more states, and Hillary Clinton won the big states. Hillary “Hated By People, Who Don’t Know Why” Clinton is currently up by a mere 100 delegates or so on Barack “The Middle Class Messiah” Obama.

They why are you rebutting?

Chickadee,

The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn't like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.

The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn't going after young boys.

Apparently dnd does not agree with you

"I don't think it's funny. She may be on to something that us boomers should be concerned about.

That said, I think it's important to keep the young engaged. Us old coots may think they're a bunch of dreamers, but fresh, untainted ideas are a good thing. Plus they're the one's who will be deciding to put us in the old folks home...

Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008 2:56 PM"

boomers the most over insured generation ever
more homehealth care insurance and more insurance
for bridge care etc. No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them

Hi Truebeliever... I think Obama will be a player even if he doesn't get the nomination. And I think most of his supporters would go with the Democratic nominee. Not everyone though. If Obama gets the nomination, I won't vote for him (and that's the first time I've ever felt this way). I plugged my nose and voted for Dukakis and again for Kerry. I could explain my reasons, but it doesn't matter. I don't have any illusions that it would matter what I vote anyway; I'm just one person. I am also sure that my viewpoint would not be highly indicative of those who call themselves Democrats. Most will eventually stand up for the nominee.

L in W

Well since I don't see Obama inviting us to any Kool-aid parties or telling us that the aliens are coming to get us I think we are probably ok.

I think I understand what you are talking about-----someone being so charismatic that he could lead us down the wrong road and make us think that it is good for us.

But isn't that what Bush has done for 7 years. I don't see him as cult leader. He isn't smart enough. People are just paying more attention now.

I am from FL, have always been a strong Democrat and will be more than a liitle annoyed if we are not seated, most Floridians feel the same way. If the Dems want to win in Nov, they better start paying attention to us.

Bear LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! You know there is a movement of people who seem to specifically dig chubby men and women. And there is a group that want to get fat. I never understood that. My middle name is DIET... grrr. :)

I am behind the times, what are kool-aid parties? Are we talking about a Jonestown love fest?

KGC,
"No one is counting on some little snot to make their decisions for them"

Those little snots will soon be in charge of your health care. Lotsa luck if you call them little snots...

Bear ----that's correct Clinton didn't stoop to the level of the Moral Minders!

Dnd I agree with you,

Those little snots are the ones fighting the war.

Elaine in Tampa

I feel your pain...and I feel the "uniter" (read BO) needs to show us how ready he is to unite the dem party by demanding all the delegates should be allowed in at the convention. Again, I hate seeing the dem party torn-up when we need to focus on November and beating the repugs.

And I know BO brags about uniting independents and republicans....just not his own party.

"I find him reflecting a cult leader."
roflmao

Thx Linda, I needed a good laugh over lunch!

http://www.elderlifeplanning.com/idi/geriatrc.htm

no little snot will be in charge of my health care decisions.

and a lot of elderlaw is protecting seniors from the abuse of those little snots.

KGC,

I don't like to make personal missives but you need to get a fistful of Pamprin and chill the F out. Not all baby boomers are insured up the wazoo as you claim. If that were the case, you wouldn't see all these blue hairs working part time jobs after they retire in order to get food enough money to cover the medications and other expenses.

I wonder how you expect people to take your opinions seriously when all you do is act like a pissed off monkey, throwing handfuls of your shit at passersby at the zoo...

All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won't exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won't leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else...

Yes, Obama has been more of a divisive candidate the last few days in my eyes. He does need to show some unity.

All you heard in the @#$@ 2000 election were the issues of Social Security. It may be solvent when your ass kicks but to the younger folks out there, especially considering the way these F-ing Mensas screwed up our economy, its a real prospect it won't exist. You do realize that in 20 years, the most of the federal budget could be consumed by paying just the interest on the federal debt? That won't leave room for money for tic tacs, let alone anything else...

that;s bullshit - that's all you heard from Republicans not democrats. get a grip.

Try facts

and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500...I doubt it will be more than 10 years...odd are you will live 10 years beyond that point...you better pray the snot nose kids keep working to support your ass...

Truebeliever....

Sorry, I'm feeling the Unity....

and further, take a moment to figure out how much you paid into Social security in your bitter lifetime and then figure out how long it will take to cash those checks at $1500
I have it we all get it in the mail every year
and it will be quite a while before I get out everything I paid in ...

Brain in NYC

Be careful about embracing the youth under the age of 18...you might get arrested.

I will feel more unity when I find out that he has stopped saying that Hillary's supporters would support him, but that it would not be the other way around. I have heard him say that several times.

HEY YOU LITTLE SNOTS! GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

Sheila'

Thanks for the support for FL.. We dems do have a penchant for screwing up our chances. BO9the Uniter) is starting to show his real self and the fellow has some teeth.

At least that is what he comments have meant to me

HEY YOU LITTLE SNOTS! GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008 3:52 PM

I'm thinking of having a yard sign made.

KGC,

You are an idiot if you forget all the ridicule that Al Gore took because of the Social Security lock box. You have clearly taken the Bush administrations orwellian course on revisionist history.

I swear to god it is easier to reason with a Klansman with a torch in his hand than it is with you...how I long for the days of Fritz...he was vile and rude yet he was much less bitter than you.

I don't know what your source of bitterness is but I suggest you take a day off your high horse and go volunteer to help the some homeless veterans. They took a bullet and they were willing to die for their country. They have been ignored since that service and they are less bitter than you...

Obama continues with his velvet tongue to get away with saying anything he wants to say, I agree that he says he can win her voters but he doesn't thinke she can win his supportes. NOOOO not if he is unwilling to encourage them to support her.

Buchana siad it last night there is a underlying sexism and rascism... Why cant we deal with this.

Elaine, I am of the opinion that Howie's turning the issue over to a credentials committee not controled by him allows the party to fix it and preserve what little face Howie still has. I said when he became party chair that it was a mistake and he wasn fit for the position . I was right and believe that the ridiculous overreaching by trying to strip FL and MI of thier delegates, along with his bowing to pressure to preserve the undue influence IA & NH party officials demand in the nominating process that in a rational world would leave them as bit players without lines confirmed my position re: Howie as party chair being a huge mistake (rivalled only by making Harry Reid the Senate Majority Leader).

Bear....get a mirror...look at it...now you see who sounds very bitter.

All Al Gore was doing was responding to the Bush plan

if anyone needs to get a grip it's you
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Al_Gore_Social_Security.htm

This just in....BO's next rally is being held in Waco.

I've heard it all

kc, you can borrow that sign from McCain.

elaine--

that's what I mean. That is what I have noticed in the past few days. Me-- I am a democrat , I will vote for our candidate in the fall----but alot of people may not feel that way if they are offended too much

You are on target pogo. I am a strong supporter of HRC, but if BO gets the nomination, we should push her for Senate Majority Leader. It would mean the Messiah president would have to deal with her and we might get a decent health Care Plan, a reasoned withdrawal from Iraq, a stimulus package that meets the needs of the Americans in trouble and she would be the main mediator and conciliatory force in the Senate.

Harry Reid----

now there is a nutless wonder

Bear, isn't it so that Social Security would be solvent if the damn politicians didn't raid the fund for other purposes?

Elain

I do have to admit , when it comes to sexism and racism Buchanan is an expert. ;-0

Jack

I have been talking to some serious party leaders in FL, they are disgusted with HD and the party establishment.

It is too bad, but we have been badly demeaned, ignored and stuffed in a corner. They robbed Floridians of their right to be part of a possible historic election.

Speaking of interesting political plays.. like him or not, John McCain and his supporters really did a number on Romney who was expecting to win in WV (?) and when the McCain people realized they weren't going to win, they switched over to Huckabee. Dirty as hell politics, but there was some definite savvy in that decision.

BO was just on CNN saying the same thing again about how he will get Hillary's vote. Well not mine.

Hillary is having a news conference w/in the hour.

Elaine--

I believe it will all end up ok. Smarter heads will prevail. Tell them to hang in there.

Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?

Whatever is good for the Obama.

unlikely_burrito (I love your name and I have a fine wine to go with your name)

BO doesn't deal with anything last century....and I think his dissing of the past has backed him into a corner.

I know Brain and Warren tell me how brilliant he is (read the book), but to me he really seem stupid by his stance. Millenium Boy ignores the past.

truebeliever,
we have been patient, we have no tother choice. Until recently I have beleived that all would end up ok, I am concerned as BO gets more strength FL loses at the convention. Then all will come running for money. I maxxed out this time, thye willl not be getting my dough.

I agree with unlikely_burrito that super delegates may end up being in trouble also.

Well i don't think any state should have a monopoly of "first vote" in the Presidential primary, like Iowa and NH have. It's just not democratic. And states that want an earlier role in the process should not be penalized... at least the people of those states should not be penalized. It's late, so I don't know if this made total sense.

And I want everyone to know that I understand how sensitive we all are and by my use of "boy" as in Millenium Boy was not a racial slur. It was intended to show his youthfulness and inexperience. Perhaps, Millenium Juvenile would have been a better moniker.

Blonde wino...
I took a short vacation from the blog just as you came barreling on.....
I want to say "Howdy"..... I'm in NH.... have been to NM several times and absolutely love your state....

I also love wine and was curious what your favorite(s) is/are.....

BJ..... are you the BJ from around Las Vegas that was on this blog when Craig first started it?...

and Obama has yet to state that people who don't vote for him are not racist as the media tends to suggest..... this one thing still upsets me.....

well... that... and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin....

GO DEMOCRATS!

Hmmmm...........

Super-delegates, have been around since 1972(?), 36 years or so. Does Obama wants to do away with them? or does he want to control them?

Whatever is good for the Obama.

Posted by: unlikely_burrito | February 6, 2008 4:09 PM

I can't find it anywhere, where OBama wants to get rid of Super Delegates.

can you provide your source please?

BONBC discussing dem ballot problems....

EuroTom....
I'm from NH and even I have to agree with you about our insistence on going first..... it's not about democracy.... it's about $$$$$.....
this state makes a lot of money going first.... but it's time for the gravy train to end and let other states have an early say.....

the one thing we may all be able to agree upon is that the system we use to get candidates nominated by the parties appears to be broken....

What a mess. The DNC should step up now! and make it clear what is going to be done with Michigan and Florida, and they should educate the public about the Super- Delegates.

This will deflect it from becoming a issue that OBAMA-boy pouts about to his loyal followers. If OB makes this an issue, and the DNC doesn't take control the party in-fighting will reach historic levels.

I can see the OB camp blaming the DNC rules on the Clinton Machine....and all the baby-Obama's will throw little fits.

RR

My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale -- best old vine. It is part of my health care program.

My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir -- north island.

And they are best drunk in New Mexico...which reminds me I need to check the results again.

unlikely_burrito

Again can you post your source that Obama is against Super Delegates?

Unless you do, I will consider you a Republican Troll... ;0)

Before some of you partisans out there get too stupid.
A reminder of what this election is about.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/26569.html

I never thought in my life time we would talk about torture being the official policy of this nation.

Jack

Shelia, it was a question.

Obama wins caucuses with Liberal activists in mostly Red States. This sytem should be scrapped. That is a sure ticket for an Obama November victory. Florida and Michigan will be counted and last night was a big loss for BO. I can point to so many things that reflect his poor judgment. NY Independents couldn't vote and would have gone for Hillary if allowed. Bill's popularity it quite high and Obama produced the black white issue that has caused him problems nationally.

Biggest problem is that people are growing tired with the vague plaititudes and borrowed rhetoric of BO. Economy and Healthcare seem to go for Hillary. Foreign Policy despite Iraq still favors a more centrist view on a national stage. Immigration, education, vets and energy also trend towards Hillary. I expect Obama breaking his promise and going after Hillary on a personal level again. Hillary needs to watch Texas, Penn and Ohio and keep the pressure to include Florida and Michigan.

The writing is on the wall and the only reason that I say this is to counter the crap spilling from my TV. Some people I met want Hillary just to beat up the sexists, revisionaries, biased and unprofessional pundits and polsters (Zogby is a beaut) who have spouted non-stop for a year. They are the immovable force that should be bitch-slapped by the irresistable force of mainstream Democrats. And Democratic men aren't the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don't want a woman President, not a tough one at least. Perhaps if Jessica Simpson ran they might vote for her.

Thank you Burrito. ;0)

Forget about torture, WJ

I have real news...just in from David Shuster...Britiney is out!

CIA director acknowledges use of waterboarding......

LOL Well Jack! its about darn time! I wonder if any of it will pulse the radar screen!

"She told me that her generation's payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn't bail us out."

I'm sure glad I raised my children to have a moral compass.

Maxtrue, you can see just from this forum that "democratic men aren't the liberated dudes they pretend to be". The breadth and scope of sexism from some of the top posting "stars" in here does confound me.

On the other hand, a lot of men posting here are feminists and they understand that gender politics is as legitimate and as important as any other quest for equality in a pretty unequal world.

RR

Burrito reminds me of one of the big fiesta's here in southern Ne Mexico...The Whole Enchilada Fiesta. We make a large enchilada (biggest in the world according to Guiness) and most of the town shows up to have a piece.

http://www.enchiladafiesta.com/

RR...Oh, that vibrating red pepper with the sombrero is "Twefie."

"The right wing will never admit this publicly, but I am convinced that the only reason they attacked Bill Clinton is because he had a penchant for chasing some dogs. Gennifer Flowers and Paula Corbin Jones were butt ugly. They didn't like Monica because she was fat. If he was caught with a supermodel, or with any kind of prostitute, (gay/straight), he would have met Republican standards for infidelity and would thus have been in the clear.
The Catholic church was upset with him because he wasn't going after young boys."

Oh my GAWD! Bear I almost fell off my chair laughing.

Shelia,
i think peeps starting this line of ?? referring to this Huffpo article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html

haah! Linda, that would be refreshing!

Re: Bri Bri, he seems insistent on calling me a "racist", just like the Obama supporters did to Bill Clinton when he observed that South Carolina would most probably go to BHO, and pointed out that Jesse Jackson carried the state's democratic votes.

Oh and not that I have to prove my credentials to Bri Bri or his hapless friends, but I was also a DELEGATE for Mr. Jackson and one of the founding members of the Thurston County Rainbow Coalition back in 1988.

Carry on name callers!

Feel good link and cute shoes. :) The photos from the trip are fantastic. Peace

http://www.tomsshoes.com

Here you go Linda,

Oprah gave to the Obama campaign last year.

http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_donations/Oprah_Winfrey.php

here is Caroline Kennedy

http://www.newsmeat.com/celebrity_political_donations/Caroline_Kennedy.php

That's weird. Caroline is all for Obama but she gave the same amount to Hillary? Does UNCLE TEDDY really have that much influence on her?

I am beginning to believe my black pal down at Vandy was right when he said he was concerned about white agitators calling everyone racist who said anything at all about Obama. He said that in the end the ones crying racism would turn Obama into the affirmative action candidate. This guy, by the way, is a very sharp political type.

A question I would like the candidates to answer but nobody will ask it.

If you are President and proof is brought to you that officials the current administration approved of war crimes, would you prosecute the offenders and how ?

Jack

Here's Teddy

He didn't donate to Obama

http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/Ted_Kennedy.php

Max commented--"And Democratic men aren't the liberated dudes they pretend to be. Many don't want a woman President, not a tough one at least".

Correct---many men are intimidated by strong, independent women. Yes---it exists in this thread.

Politico's Ben Smith posted about Obama's view of superdelegates. This is what Huffpoo put up on it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/06/obama-calls-out-super-del_n_85339.html

I'm sure Politico has more, but I have to run.

So here is Obamas Donor list and how much.

I couldn't find any name even familiar with Rezco or Rezko

http://www.newsmeat.com/campaign_contributions_to_politicians/donor_list.php?candidate_id=P80003338&li=R

So where does the 32 million come from?

Thanks for the sites Sheila.

Blonde wino....
thanks for all that info....
I've never been to Las Cruces..... I should remedy that fact soon....

my hubby, Rick, fell in love with green chiles on our first visit to your state 12 yrs ago..... he still orders them by the case....

I am a hand weaver..... we went to Indian Market in Santa Fe..... I saw Navajo weavings so beautiful that they made me cry.....

I now have several good friends that live there..... one is in Santa Fe and one in your neck of the woods..... in a little town I can't remember off the top of my head..... he's a jeweler and went in search of a town where he and his wife could make their jewelry and afford to buy a house..... he says they love living near the Mexican border.....

and just to make it fair,

Here is Clinton's public record of donations.

http://www.newsmeat.com/campaign_contributions_to_politicians/donor_list.php?candidate_id=P00003392

Blonde wino,
"My most favorite wine in the world is Australian Shiraz from the Barossa Valley or McLaren Vale -- best old vine. It is part of my health care program.

My second most favorite is a New Zealand Pinot Noir -- north island"

I once asked a wine afficianado friend what was her favorite wine. Her response: "whatever the one that's in front of me."

Oprah is cheap. Unless there is more that she provided this year that pumed up that January number.

Renee

"and the fact that his wife is beginning to get under my skin...."

We can be irritated together. She stepped on one of my last nerves even before her husband did.

Unlikey_bee... Oprah has given what could be considered "in-kind" donations... by actively campaigning for BHO. Is there a limit on how much she can contribute? Lord knows she's got the money.

Linda......common. Small doners like me.

I'm a small doner. I've been donating a little each month. Just to be completely honest.

Pogo

Thank you for the Huffpo post about Super delegates and BO. Sheila now has an answer from burrito's question.

tome and burrito,

That is the limit for the Primary. Then in the General, everyone can donate again.

I used to donate to campaigns til I read the millions Tad Devine, Bob Shrum and their partner pocketed for their expert advise and managing John Kerry's campaign. If the consultants each get MILLIONS, I think the every day working woman or man shouldn't be asked to contribute to such costs.

JmHO .. and really goodnight...

xoxoxoxoxo

Yes thanks Pogo,

But Wino, it wasn't my question, it was Burritos. ;0)

Here burrito;

Obama, at his Chicago press conference just now, lays out his path to the nomination, which depends first on having a majority of pledged delegates.

"If this contest comes down to superdelegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those superdelegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination," he said.

"The argument we would be making to superdelegates is, if we come into the convention with more pledged delegates then i think we can make a very strong argument that our constituencies have spoken and I think that's going to be pretty improtant when it comes to the general election," he says.

BW
re. huffpo article

Thats just Obama working the refs , Smart politics IMO
Jack

Small doner here. I like to donate especially after something MSM says to tick me off. I admit, when they ask, I usually provide some amount.

I might catch up with Oprah, since is such a long campainge.

Re : super Delagates/ Mich / Fla.

Thank you for the insight. I understand, but I also can see where it will, or it can, get very confrontational if the message presented is that it "isn't fair"

Most voters can deal with the contest if it is precieved as fair.

Thanks Sheila...regarding the post sometimes I drink "whatever the one that's in front of me."

I am a lazy blogger sometimes.

obama is trying to change the rules about super delagates,,,,,,,,,but dosnt want fla and mich to be seated .....what a hypocrite

Zumper

I toast you, now you get it.

why is the media still trying to spin an obama victory....they know the clinton camp conceded the caucus states to obama because most of those states wont be in dem corner in nov...obama has only won 2 significant states his own and conn ..why cant the media just be honest for once..(fat chanch)....by the way she won the most gelagates and has a 70 delagate lead but the media was trying to change the math but math is math ....THE MEDIA LOST LAST NIGHT and thats what im the most happy about
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thanks blonde

DND, been out doing errands this afternoon. Thanks for the insights into CO caucuses. Just as I thought, party regulars and the highly motivated. CO probably didn't see too many Hispanic and minority participants. Comparing CO with CA and AZ and you can see the difference between the two systems. Craig says the two systems sharpen the skills of the candidates and their strategists. Could be, but after this primary season I'm say, dump the caucuses and let the party people vote in the closed primary systems. Now there is another topic for another time: open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic?

Very Welcome Blonde,

eprof2

If New Mexico can ever finish counting, we may have one more caucus to point to regarding your point.

Still not done.

Gentle thoughts for today

Birds of a feather flock together and crap on your car.
************************************************************
When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the
neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************************************
A penny saved is a government oversight.

************************************************************
The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time,
but also to leave unsaid, the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

blondie
new mexico is splitting the delagates 13 13 no mater who wins

Burritto , The unfair argument is going to be used by the looser if it comes down to the super delegates. *shrug* That is the way the system is designed,"unfair"
just like last night where you could win 60 to 40 and come out even in the delegate count.
I think it is about time to bring this system into the modern world. We are not riding to the convention on horseback any more.

Jack

Okay, Craig...I am ready to get all of the Florida and Michigan delegates onto the family truckster and drive to Opralamedy Land to get this delegate thing straightened out once and for all.

good post jack

this democrat system sucks.....so does howard dean....there should be only primaries and at least half winner take .......these candidates have a general election to fight for sgsinst the GOP

My favorite wine...

Fat bastard

http://www.fatbastardwine.com/our-wines.php

Jack - it's drivin' me to drink.

LL

Love the hippo and have had a few bottles, myself.

Big Snow Storm here to Corey!

EProf

"open primaries, closed primaries, and blanket primaries. Which of these is most democratic? "

More and more people are going the "Decline To State" route (which should probably be standardized in some way since some people register "Independent" not realizing that in some states that is a particular party)

There is much less party loyalty but there could be extreme interest in one part or another during a given election that would attract these middle of the road types.

I would go for an open primary that allows the "decline" types to pick a party on primary or caucus day. The more I think about the less I like the caucus system.

Wino,

My favs,

Rancho Zabaco Red Zin Juicy!
Smoking Loon Merlot Yummy and cheap. ;0)
Flowers Pinot Noir Actually romantic and flowery.

... It goes like this, if a Michigan or Florida delegate votes at the convention and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Good Catch Jamie. ;0)

Patsi, I was logging off when I read what you wrote. I was stunned! I had to find out who wrote that. Colleen? I don't know if I know her. She says I have a crush?!!! LOL... uhhhhh... NO! Why I outta.... :-) If it wasn't so insulting, it would be really funny.

I really don't know what to say... I can assure you.. if I stand up to someone whom I perceive to be a bully, it isn't a "crush" or an "amorous" thought that motivates me.

Anyway, LOL !!!!! I cannot think of anything cogent to say.

Well, I like you Patsi and I like Jamie, and Pogo, and Lardass Liberal, Blonde Wino, Oregon Democrat, and Sheila (even though she does seem to be preaching at me about my anti-Bri Bri intereactions) and Craig Crawford. I can assure all of you that I don't have an crush on any of you :) ... well maybe Craig! LOL...

:) :) :)

I love Obama saying, "Clinton has a well honed machine built over 20 years".

Doesn't he think the Kennedy machine is enough to put the fix in?

He is so damn phony.

Jamie

I toast to you, too. I think the guy is a phony,too. And Romney usually get that brand from the media.

My favorite saying...

"Practice what you preach" 8>{)

Now Jamie,

I just heard Clinton compliment Obama and then give him a shove too.....really., its politics! :0)

oh and I forgot Rebellious Renee, and I like Blonde Wino too... Whiskey Jack has great things to say and Nash is clever as can be... And I like whoever it was that was praising Dolly Parton's new music. That's a person of great taste,

Jamie, it just goes to show that the "new politics" Obama talked so eloquently about in 2004 has quickly been replaced by the usual "attack and divide" politics. High minded stuff, unless your poll numbers stay in the the toilet.

Very funny TM title! *L*

Competing with Craig and on opposite is Michael Moore on Larry King, CNN.

Larry King repeats here but Abrams doesn't. So Craig you'll be the early one and Michael the late one as I'm interested in what ya both have to say.

tt

EuroTom

Brain from NYC can't post right now, he is being questioned by the police for "embracing a youth under the age of 16"

"Clinton compliment Obama and then give him a shove "

But she smiles when she says something nice about him. He practically puts his thumb in his mouth and sulks when he tries to say something nice about her.

you guys are bad. I need to sleep and I find this place so entertaining. To be serious, I am mostly enjoying it here. I will be suffering in the morning and I have 3 orders coming in... grrrr. xoxoxoxoxox

I find the Ted Kennedy snob by voters very interesting. Clout is changing by the powers that be it seems.

tt

Sheila

I toast to you, too, as you like variety in your diet. Nice selections.

Only in your tainted eyes Jamie. You think he's snarky and a jerkand I see an honest man.

I can take just about any judgement but this type.

There was a great article in Boston.com about when Mitt Romney was running against Ted Kennedy, none other than President Clinton and First Lady Hillary Clinton campaigned tiredlessly for his re-election.

The article is called "A Loss for Kennedy" Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/

Ted Kennedy sure knows how NOT to stand by his friends.

your thoughts?

Wow...just found a potato chip by my chair...how did I miss that cleaning-up the wine spill last night?

Snarky yes. Jerk no.

Blonde LOL... I have found Italian wines to be really nice at the end of a long work day. I sell wines at my gas station / shop.

Tom,

I think Ted Kennedy is a grown man who has made a very important decision. One for his own morals. I am aware that he took a long time to do this. He informed the Clintons before he did it.

And so I think he was honorable.

Back in 1994, Kennedy was suddenly and shockingly vulnerable to a challenge from a rich, smart Republican named Mitt Romney. On the defense in his first real political fight in decades, Kennedy wrapped himself "in President Clinton's mantle," the Globe reported in June 1994. "I am honored to stand with him, day after day, week after week, month after month, in our fight for jobs, economic justice, and progress on the great issues like health reform," Kennedy told delegates to that year's Democratic state convention.

from the article "A Loss for Ted Kennedy"
The article is called "A Loss for Kennedy" Check this link out http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/06/a_loss_for_kennedy/

Tucker is such a dooffess!

But Sheila, he didn't just make an endorsement.... he tried to skewer them. Is this the behaviour of a principled man?

Looks like KO is down.

"Sorry, 'www.keitholbermann.org' does not exist or is not available"

http://keitholbermann.org/forum

tt

Ok I really admired Heath Ledger, and I know "This Just In" is joking, but... it doesn't feel right.

.....what planet am I on then. I never heard any skewering or I would have been mad.

I heard about his warning to Bill.

I heard Kennedy excited about the message.

But He Never Skewered the Clintons

In what may be Obama's most direct and aggressive criticism of Bill Clinton's presidency yet, the Obama campaign dropped a new mailer just before Super Tuesday that blasts "the Clintons" for wreaking massive losses on the Democratic party throughout the 1990s.
Obama has already taken direct aim at the Clinton presidency, arguing in a widely-discussed interview that the GOP was the "party of ideas" during the last decade and a half. This mailer represents more direct criticism of Bill, as well as an overt effort to tie Hillary to the Dem losses suffered under his Presidency -- and raise the specter of more Dem losses under a Hillary one. http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/obama_directly_attacks_bills_p.php

Sheila was right yesterday when she said that the Obama supporters don't want to say anything because the majority here are Hillary supporters and nothing they can say is even considered.

Now I see where Barack's wife is being blasted for something she said. IIRC when being interviewed and ask what she would do {and this was before any primaries} if she was to lose she said she wasn't going to lose. When ask but what if you do lose she said she's never thought about it because she wasn't going to lose. Sure sounds arrogant to me.

So let me say this, a newbie on the blog here {by new I mean someone who hasn't been here for as long as some of us} made a comment about the media. And there are a lot of comments about the media lately can also apply here.

Everyone knocks Obama saying he's a good orator, but gives no specifics on the issues or there not as good as Hillary. He gives a good speech but has no experience. He says he's going to change the way Washington works, but don't get specific enough.

On the Hillary side she also gives a good speech, however she does not inspire anyone. She gives specifics and they really sound so much better than what Obama gives. She has over thirty years experience and Obama doesn't have enough experience.

So now let me say what was said on another thread by Gordo.

If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.

This works both ways. On one hand you all agree on what I have said about Obama, but you don't believe what he says.
Its not good enough for you.

On Hillary you agree that she gives a good speech, but not as good as Obama. She has substance and lots of specifics on the issues that sound really good, a lot better than Obama. So is it too good to be true?

You have made up your minds and no matter what anyone who supports Obama says you dismiss and belittle his messages so I can understand why Obama supporters do not want to engage anyone on why he is the right person for the Presidency of The United States.

And to the person who suggested he was a cult leader who would lead you to commit suicide because he inspires people and offers them hope of restoring our Constitution and Country you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I for one am glad that Jesus was a cult leader. After all he inspired a lot of people only he didn't ask them to drink the kool aide.

I don't comment hear as much as I use to do and I only argued and bashed two people here in all the years I have been a family member of Craig's and the rest of those regulars.

Those two people were SnowFlake Blue Fritz and Fry. Now I see a lot of that since this is a very important election for our country.

I think that I'll just lurk from now on and be silent, besides its getting real hard here to keep up since now I'm seeing over four hundred comments on the last thread and this one.

By the way, I don't hate Hillary and feel that she would be better off in the Senate as Majority Leader than that spineless Harry Reid. At least she could maybe hold the Democrats together and not cave in all the time like Reid does.

I also don't expect her to make the changes needed to give us are country back. She is part of the problem and not part of the solution. No matter what you think her thirty years experience makes it difficult if not impossible to make the changes necessary that are needed.

As to whether or not the new young voters that Obama brought into the party may feel that there voices still don't count and stay at home. So even though Hillary supporters may vote for Obama they may not vote for Hillary.

I will vote for her if she the nominee, however I'll bite my tongue and hold my nose when I do.

Well I'm done ranting. Good luck to all of you and may none of us regret our decision when the election is over.

Take care and...

God Bless.

Sheila...Ted Kennedy, morals?

Like I said, he'll drive off that bridge when he gets there!

Re: Tucker doofessness-
And Lanny Davis wipes the floor with him...again! Why does he keep having him on ?

EuroTom

I agree 8>{)

Sheila , you see doofess when you look at Tucker...I see a gentle light-hearted soul.

Just under 6" of snow here so far. About 7" total by midnight. Do I call in to work and stay off the roads , eventhough I live in town???

Ok guys I am going to bed really. Thanks for the chat, the comedy, and the drama. Hope I helped stir up the mix.

Now I get only 5 hours sleep... I'm too old for this stuff :-)

xoxoxoxox

I couldn't survive on only 5 hours of sleep per night

Now I am getting started on the Kennedys Myth and the way I feel expresses how the folks in California and Massachusetts voted. Who cares what the Kennedy's think? They are not a sqeaky clean klan.

The Kennedy had their beginnings in boot legging and by the the time they ended-up in the White House...it was Camelot. And after Jack was assasinated, Jackie shows-up naked in Greece and marries Aristotle O. And we treat Caroline Kennedy like a princess....geez. Maybe the American peeps are finally getting smarter...hold that thought.

This thread is actually about what is your “word” worth?

Craig,

The difference between this site (which is one of yours)

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=104

and this site (which happens to be mine)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22419475

is that the Billarys are counting Florida and Michigan on your site.

With the world watching this election, if we find that the Billarys cannot keep their word with their own people, what will leaders of other countries believe Billary would be as a leader by NOW wanting to include Florida and Michigan? Sounds a little like a Pakistan election where they will do anything to win. My father used to say “if someone could not keep their word, they were “not worth their salt”, which to me would also say she is “not the salt of the earth”. The “earth” is watching and listening!!!! It sounds like she does not want a revote or recaucus; one must wonder if she thinks the results would be different. That sounds like the fairest thing to do now.

If you scan your mouse over the MSNBC site Leaderboard, you will see the states that are included, unlike the cqpolitics site.

BTW, does anyone know if John Edwards has any delegates now that he is out? If so, what happens to them?

a-p

You are taking things to serious and need to lighten-up. For 8 years we have been under the stranglehold of GWB and we have been terrorized by security alerts, wire tapping and some pretty awful pictures of torture.

Let's look at the puppies..instead.

http://www.winedogs.com/

JE has 26 delegates...less than MI or FL should have.

Karolenna

The last time I looked he had 26. Even though he has quit the campaign, he has not released them. If he chooses to endorse someone, courtesy would usually have them follow his lead for at least the first ballot at the convention, though they would not be absolutely obligated to do so. That gives him some leverage to bargain with the viable candidates.

After the first ballot, they are free agents and can cut their own deals.

Obama went to Florida and said he would seat the delegation. Why has he changed his mind.

And now he wants to change the rules about super delegates.

Obama is the one with the problem keeping his word

If anyone of you thinks that the educated white male will vote for HRC as they did for Obama, I believe you are completely wrong. They will either not vote, as I won’t unless Obama is on the ticket, or they will vote Republican. It is not that they will not vote for a woman; it is that we will not vote for this woman.

I agree with Susan Sarandon who says “It is time for a woman to be president but I’m not sure this one is the one”. Agree totally.

Craig what s up on the senate floor today that obama had to be led away by the arm out of the room by sen kerry after hillary was talking to sen kennedy.

agree with Jack Nicholson who says “It is time for a blackman to be president but I’m not sure this one is the one”. Agree totally.

LL

It was I who suggested (tongue in cheek -- and please do not take that the wrong way, a-p) that Brain was being questioned by the police for "embracing a youth under 16." It was a play on words, probably not really funny, but was a lot of fun to type. Like I said, we have been so miserable for years under GWB, we need to have some harmless fun.

funny chick

Thanks for the chat...have to run...will try to catch Craig on Dan's show. Dan is still easy on the stomach.

Anon-paranoid @ 6:10 pm,

Rant all you want because you have some good things to say. I agree with you on most of your comments. I have always said that HRC would best serve this country in the Senate. I even have thought that Obama may ask her to be Secretary of State, then all that traveling around the world and talking with so many leaders she has bragged about would come into play for her.

She should have kept some of the money she spent on her speaking coach, because I don’t believe it has done any good with people who can still see the coldness in her. She is probably a good person, but she is calculating and cold. That is why I believe many men don’t like her…not because they are intimated by a so-called intelligent woman.

Isn't it ironic when you have decided you like or do not like a person that every little thing bugs you about them? That goes for both sides that I hear on here.

anon-p,
I miss ya. Your opinions are well thought out and respected here by those of us who've been here for a while. If some want to snark at you, f#*k 'em. They'll probably move on soon enough.

I think it's beyond just "bugging" you. I think people recognize these facial expressions and temperments, and it reminds them of people they have dealt with in real life.

If it walks like a duck..... on and on

Experience is the teacher, and many women have a truly remarkable "gut" feeling intuition when they watch people. In my experience they are usually correct or at least very close.

I'll get slammed for this, but I do not think "most" men that same intense level of intuition.

disclaimer: not meant to enrage or upset or hurt anyones feeling....

Karolenna

" I don’t believe it has done any good with people who can still see the coldness in her. She is probably a good person, but she is calculating and cold.'

And you know this how? Who told you? Have you talked with people who know her? What has she done to prove this to you? or are you just in that rather odd group of people who hate Hillary Clinton but don't know why.

Virtually everyone who has ever met her including those who oppose her candidacy such as Matthews comment that she is intelligent, warm and friendly in person. People who know her well have testified that she has a great sense of humor and is sensitive to those around her.

Karolenna commented at 6:52 "She should have kept some of the money she spent on her speaking coach, because I don’t believe it has done any good with people who can still see the coldness in her".

What does the coldness in her look like?

My brother was accused of having sex with underage girls and he didn't think that was funny. It was posted on a blog and he is suing them for it.

Even in jest its not funny.

As far as I know gays are not pedophiles, whereas straight men are more likely to be pedophiles.

And for the person that said someone told them that Bill Clinton hurt the Democratic Party here is a link that tells the loses to the Party while Bill was President.

I personally thought Bill was a good President, but these figures don't lie. Read the full article.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002255/2008/01/28.html#a1929

Signing off.

Holy crap - anon_p -

Jamie: I want to back up what you said about Hillary being very warm in person. I attended rallies for all of the candidates multiple times over the last year. I saw Hillary about 6 times and Obama 3 or 4 (would have been once more but he did not attend the Cancer Forum.)

Hillary is VERY warm in person. When she shakes your hand she stops, looks you in the eye, pauses and greets you. She really makes a connection.

To the contrary, when I had Obama sign my book he did not look at me, was speaking to other people and just aimlessly signing things as he walked, more like a celebrity walk of the red carpet. I have seen this repeated on the news many times.

This did not make a difference in my vote, but it directly addresses the issue Karolenna brings up so I wanted to respond to it.

The other person who is lovely in person is Bill Richardson. He has solid ideas as well. I was sorry to see he never got any traction.

Hi Anon-P

Good to see you again buddy!

Bill Clinton is the same way, warm and kind to those he meets.
The word "respectful" also comes to mind.

Burrito: Yes, very true. I saw him three times in the last year and he is respectful and commanding in person. However, I did not feel he overpowered Hillary as some have pointed out. I actually thought they complemented each other very well. She has a very different style than he does: practical, nurturing, policy wonk-ish. I am drawn to this (not sure what this says about me?!) and this is probably why I liked Richardson as well.

Hi Sheila...

I'm not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me. Don't take that wrong though. I really like those whom I know from the beginning, however truth be told its like my grandfather told me when I was so much younger than today.

Never talk Religion or Politics because you will end up losing friends if their views differ from yours. Truer words were never spoken.

God Bless.

I understand Sweetie,

It will bet better someday and we will be here. I will miss you buddy!

Howard Dean today:

f there is no nominee selected by his predicted mid-spring date, or by Puerto Rico's June vote – the last presidential primary on the Democratic calendar – Dean said the party would likely bring both sides together to work out a deal.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/06/dnc-chair-we-may-broker-clinton-obama-deal/

Wouldn't you like to be in on that meeting?
Would

I know that I am new to the blog and naive, but I personally hope for a Clinton/Obama ticket. I feel that the longer this campaign continues, the more divided the party will become and the only way to heal is to unite and conquer.

burrito,
"Bill Clinton is the same way, warm and kind to those he meets. The word "respectful" also comes to mind."

You betcha. Just ask Monica. Or Paula. Or Gennifer. Or....

Talk to those in the inner circle. He has a hair-trigger temper.

But he is the consummate salesman. That is clear.

Nobody likes seedy innuendo and to be told that you do this, you are this, blah blah blah when you are not and that includes Hillary Clinton. Hurts.

Interesting move by Dean to get everyone to focus on the idea of not self destructing.

Anon...

I'm joining you in checking out for awhile, but I hope we'll both be back once sanity and cooler heads have prevailed on this blog. I'll still be lurking, but it's no longer worth it to come here every day to read the same diatribe over and over, or to watch as people I previously respected call each other - and the presidential candidates - names, and try to rip each other apart.

To those of you've who've managed to retain your dignity and to treat others with respect - and you know who you are! - thank you!

Don't bash Hillary and don't bash Obama and all will be okay here.

"I'm not going to comment for a while. The tone here has become to rancid for me"

Oh Good God. Anon you've become, uh, paranoid. You say some of the damndest things then immediately boo-hoo when questioned. And PLEASE stop injecting Jesus into this dialogue.

It's time for the healing to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCXZczTQXo

speaking of really bad tempers

It cites such alleged losses of temper as: “Defending his Amnesty Bill, Senator McCain lost his temper and screamed, 'F*ck you!' at Texas Senator John Cornyn.”

The memo adds at another point: “Senator McCain repeatedly called Senator. Pete Domenici (R-NM) an “a**hole”, causing a fellow GOP senator to say, “I didn't want this guy anywhere near a trigger
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3271708.ece

I just saw a report on McCain's voting record. Found it interesting. We know all about Hillary's voting records, but what about Obama's. All I know for sure is he voted No on the war vote. Why is the media giving this guy a free ride. Let's here some more information on him.

Tweety just compared the choice between HRC and BO to "Sophie's Choice."

Find it vedaryl,

its public info.

Use to be we could all debate our differences here and still respect and enjoy each other. Now it's dominated with bile that contributes nothing to the discussion. I'm with 9/11, anon-p and harborwoman. See ya.

KC, and then he said "of course not that bad".

because he couldn't figure out who was playing the nazis

I want the media to treating him the same way everyone else is being treated. They could of done the same report on him as they did on McCain. No more free ride, it's gone on long enough. What's fair is fair. Maybe he will do even better in the rest of the races. I don't want dirt on him. We all don't have computers, some depend on the media to do their jobs.

dnd,

Its with a heavy heart to see you go. But I DO understand. Remember things swing both ways and this pendulum may swing back to the fine days of this blog!

Is Obama Being Hurt By MSNBC And His Other Media Worshippers
Indeed. As Crawford points out, last night Tom Brokaw went on MSNBC and chastised his colleagues for getting so far ahead of themselves. “Once again,” Brokaw intoned, “in all of our conventional and collective wisdom, we were wrong.” Taylor Marsh rightly noted that Brokaw was "babysitting" his MSNBC colleagues.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/

It's about time, it took an old pro to wake up and smell the roses.

VaDaryl

"No on the war vote." He never voted on it. He wasn't in the Senate at the time. He spoke out against the war at the time. When asked about that specific piece of legislation, he has said he doesn't know how he would have voted.

OK, Press him on that issue. What do you mean I am not sure what I would of done. You said on the first day the new Pres has to make the right decision.

Corey

honest criticism and being called on your criticism in a polite manner is not bashing. IMO None of the candidates are perfect and there is room to point out the flaws in all of them. I have read little bashing in here, I have how ever read the same criticisms repeated ad nausium about both democratic candidates. Some of them becoming very outdated. I mthink Obama has proven he can take a hit from anyone. I think HRC has proven she can draw votes from a broad spectrum of the American people and will not hurt the down ticket candidates. Just two I've read at least once in the last hour.

Jack

He was the one who said he didn't know for sure how he would have voted. No one has ever pushed him on it. They just take the speech he made opposing the war at face value. Since entering the Senate, his voting record has been almost identical to Senator Clinton.

vadaryl,

I really am tired of this babysitting....if you want your info, go on to the Obama website where it is public information.

Or haven't looked, but its probably on his senate website.....because again.....its public information.

now if you really want to get snippy, I indeed, remember when his voting record was vetted by everybody and their mother in in January of 2007. If you didn't catch it then, go look for it. Its public information.

Also why was he so low keyed in his press conference today. He almost put me to sleep. Great idea to have one but have some energy. I don't think he needed to be over excited but that was not one of his best moments. He's getting better, but this was not one of his best moments.

Horsey Cartoon on Super Tuesday

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?ID=1706

It's not babysitting for people who don't have access to info like we do. Millions of people don't have computers but depend on MSNBC, CNN, and FOX for their info. Also Time, Newsweek and their local paper. Yes I missed Jan 2007 reports. But tonight I got a handful of info on McCain, on Obama how great his movement has been going.

Jack , what I meant was that people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Hillary and people get upset when people criticize (Point out flaws) in Obama.

Hi everyone...

As an experiment, I'd suggest that you all stay off the blog for a full day (as I have today) and then go back and read the full thread. Some of the taunting and dissing here is totally 3rd Grade playground crapola. Devalues the blog. Makes for lousy reading.

Makes me want to dig out my old "Dick, Jane and Sally" reading primers from my mid-60s childhood. At least those stories had a point.

We're all better than this.

Later.

As bad as Right Wing Radio has been on trashing McCain to help Mitt, at least they are bringing up some issues.

Oh and.. Thank you and good night sweet Lardass Prince!

http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments

Sheila said,

"if you want your info, go on to the Obama website"

What ? You mean like have an informed opinion?

Radical, Sheila , simply radical.

That would put most blogs out of business, not to mention what it might do to cable news.

lol reminds me of when I got troll rated for a week on TPM cafe.
My comment "It is called google use it!"

Jack

Here is the "Spike Math" version of the DEMOCRATIC Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.

The counts are only those of "hard pledged" delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary.

It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become "hard pledged" until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates.

http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf

The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.

Pre-February 5th Delegates
Clinton:..........21
Obama:.........34
Edwards:......12

February 5 Delegates
Clinton:..........754
Obama:.........721

Subtotal: January 3 - February results
Clinton:..........775
Obama:.........755
Edwards.........12

Fl/MI Delegates
Clinton:..........201
Obama:.........130
Edwards.........11

PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Clinton:..........976
Obama:.........885
Edwards..........23

dnd....do you think that's wise?

Vadaryl:

If you took of your Clinton-coloered glasses - you might see his press conference differently.

Perhaps even gracious as opposed to some NY politician at the Giants parade whooping it up like a pep rally.

Jack:

I would hardly call the tone in here "polite" and nor shoud it be. Of course respecting the poster - if not their points - is always necessary.

Here is the "Spike Math" version of the REPUBLICAN Presidential campaign delegate count through last night.

The counts are only those of "hard pledged" delegates. These delegates are those pledged as appointed by the proportion each candidate receives in a primary, or in some states, the results of a winner-take-all primary.

It does not include delegates that are apportioned as the result of caucuses, because caucus delegates do not become "hard pledged" until at least April. The counts also do not include non-pledged delegates or superdelegates.

http://www.central.edu/publicdocs/intrade%202008%20super%20tuesday%20results.pdf

The delegate counts are estimates based on state-wide results. Slight differences may result because of the result of Congressional District voting differences.

Pre-February 5th Delegates
Huckabee.......1
McCain..........88
Romney........34

February 5 Delegates
Huckabee...176
McCain........539
Romney........74

PROVISIONAL TOTAL THROUGH FEBRUARY 5, 2008
Huckabee...177
McCain........627
Romney......108

Media Weeps With Joy Over Hillary's Latest "Tears" Moment
Meanwhile, assorted pundits wept hot tears of joy at having been granted another chance to seize on a trivial and ultimately meaningless moment to insinuate that Hillary's inner Lady Macbeth was on display yet again. Predictably, the Hardball gang obsessed over the moment, with Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson telling Chris Matthews that Hillary's tears are caused by "an impending primary. It just breaks her down."
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/

Please tell me how I should of seen that press conference.

"Oh and.. Thank you and good night sweet Lardass Prince! "

Sheila....uh, does this mean YOU will say nothing negative about Hillary or Bill?

Just to let you know I think he will be a great president. He has come a long way since the convention in 2004. I am just not convinced he is ready today.

To the Karolenna discontents:

What I say about HRD is somewhat first hand. My sister and brother-in-law attended the Clinton’s first inaugural ball, along with thousands of others, and worked and supported WJC. They both have lobbied in DC. So I know “first hand” a little about the Clintons. I have always liked Bill until this election season. My brother-in-law has a very distinguished current appointment from Governor Strickland of Ohio, who has endorsed HRC. My brother-in-law and sister are Obama supporters along with the rest of their family. They, like me, want change.

This election has done something to my family that happened in the last century. My family name ends with an “e”. Some with the same sounding name ends in an “s”. There was a political division between the e’s and the “s’” because some decided to become Republicans. We were the ones who added the “e” to our name to distinguish us from “them” because we are Democrats and probably always will be. Are we political or what?

Now, I have family members in SE Ohio who are HRD supporters and us in Central Ohio support Obama…along with our children. So, it is a very different election season for many, but I believe it is good because so many young people have become involved for the first time that never would have without the inspiration from Obama. I just wonder if they will vote in the general, though, if he is not the candidate.

Oh, lovely. The only thing holding back the states from a disgusting and chaotic Greed Rush was the knowledge that they would be punished. Now we're screwed unless both parties can be talked into the Delaware Plan.

The Democracts better not be fighting over those super delegates at the convention. The Republicans will exploit that in the general - relentlessly.

Whatever Hillary does, it makes headlines, why? If her dress is ugly, she has a tear in her eye, etc. Then let's hear, that Obama's tie does not match his suit. See how silly that is.

Patsi...I know you're a Hillary supporter just as I am, hugely. I will also strongly support Obama if he wins the nom.

But even the strongest Clinton supporters cannot help but be scared about the potential mudslides from the following story. I'm sure you've read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html?hp

I'm gettin' all misty.......

----Maynard G. Krebbs

NY Times,Post, Wash. Post editorials distorted key facts regarding Clinton's Kazakhstan trip

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802040005?f=s_search

Vadaryl:

The media and the public are obsessed with Hillary - whether they like her or they hate her.

I am glad she is strong enough to take it. I just hope Obama will be the same when Hannity and crew start their war path on him. If he does have anything in the past you bet Hannity will expose it.

Lardass Liberal: When this blog blew up a few weeks ago it entered a point of no return.

I was wondering, as I turned on TV there was And. Mitchell crying about how party-fracturing a brokered convention would be. A few days ago Craig Crawford said it would be a journalist's dream.

The pundits said McCain would love it as it would practically guarantee him the White House.

Would average voters rebel and vote for McCain if the candidate was decided by secret superdelegates, uncommitted to any one candidate?

KGC...doesn't matter. The damn thing rings true. Bill is out there peddling influence. Why else would a former U.S. prez fly to Kazakhstan on a moment's notice?

As far as the Kazak prez is concerned, this is like having Tsar Peter fly into his realm, circa 1850. Doesn't matter if the guy is current or former head of state. In the politics of Central Asia....a former US Prez is as good as a current one.

The National Anthem by Marvin Gaye:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVzaQ6i8A

LL

So any false claim that fits the public perception is fair game. That's dangerous territory.

Katherine:

The media and the pundits feel free to distort and slant stories about the Clintons. The battle-scars of the Clintons leave them more open to incoming fire.

Especially when they have one of the most cut-throat and well-armed camps themselves.

It is far more difficult to engage in those type of tactics against Obama or McCain who do not have a history of bitter partisan battles.

Even though I’m not a HRD supporter, I just don’t think the Kazakhstan story has much to do with the election and HRD, although I have not read everything about this. Just too busy trying to make a living. It would seem the money is not going into her campaign fund (at least I would hope not). How it was obtained, well that’s another story, but it seems to be for a good cause. I do believe WJC has done some good for a lot of people around the world, but that does not mean his wife would be the best president of the US. I wonder, though, if the way he has been involved with his wife’s campaign may affect donations to his causes.

warren
this is for you
http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments

Here's a link for you to read about Blair and other British government officials being investigated for War Crimes. Its the third or fourth item down.

http://carolsplaceforpeace.blogspot.com/

Signing off.

KGC...I'd be careful about how you define "false claim".

A rushed trip to a remote spot on the globe by a former U.S. president...which is followed by a $100 million gift by the apparent beneficiary of such gift....???

Doesn't pass the smell test. It scares me.

Lardass, your blunt segways, post-to-post, are hilarious!

media matters says the article is distorted
and how do you know the trip was rushed whoknows what else they made up.

btw, the Wright Bros. exhibits and the Monument to Flight at Kitty Hawk, NC, are really cool...as a devotee of Nag's Head and environs for a vacation destination, I highly recommend it, especially for people with kids or grandkids.

KGC...I'm not sure what "distorted" means. All I know is that both Bill Clinton and the Canadian billionaire changed their responses once it was clear they were pretty much nailed. Van Atta is a solid, top-notch reporter. Read his stuff from 2001 on overseas absentees if you don't believe me.

As a journalist, myself, this story is as smelly as a dead possum. Hopefully, it won't dent Hillary...but one never knows.

saw nag's head a bit when I lived in Elizabeth City....

Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack's administration as opposed to Hillary's?

He could be Sec. of State or Middle East peace envoy without dealing with all of the co-president issues.

The two-for-one deal failed when the first raised it in the 90's. It also failed when Bill got too active in this campaign and starting competing for news stories.

Hillary's strengths are being a wonk fluent with the details and beating down the opposition . . . and she is more effective in the Senate.

LL.....Amazing.........

http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/06/nobodys-hands-are-perfectly-clean-in-politics/#comments

these are direct claims against Obama not against his wife

KGC:

It is a bit dense so I will have to read it later. But at a glance - I like poker!

The kerfuffle that surrounded President Clinton's red-faced criticisms of Mr. Obama, over the Iraq war, over race, over American history, brought to an abrupt halt the due diligence about the Illinois senator's background and beliefs that voters deserve. If the press, or the Clintons, do not close this reporting deficit and Mr. Obama becomes the Democratic candidate, you can be sure that Mr. McCain's allies will take their duties more seriously http://www.nysun.com/article/70839?page_no=2

Good to see Craig on Dan Abrahms. now.

Craig-- on Abrams now--Great line re: "all the kids are in rehab"! Also, you finally got to say what needed to
be said about the Obama media swoon. Amen

Craig and Pat Buchanon would make a good show

Craig and Pat would make a good show. Dan Abrams needs to stop yelling over his guests. I wanted to hear what Craig and Pat had to say first..

jinx

Yes, a good match, would add Rachel Madow to
their team,she is a true treasure--even handed, smooth delivery.

hey Dog, not all of us

but I do agree

lardass

What influence was he pedaling? As a private citizen he has none to pedal. Was HRC involved in any way? What he does have is great access. From what I could see he was arranging a meeting. It is done everyday. What do you think all those generals do when they retire. They go to work for a big contractor or 2 or in the case Barry Mcafferty 8 or 10. Then all they do is arrange meetings. In addition the money didn't go in his pocket but for his foundation. Lastly it was 3 years ago. Now if it was tied in any way to a decision made HRC then sure you might have a point. If he does the same thing when his wife is president then that would be troublesome. In fact it would be very Billy Carterish.

Jack

Craig-
Dan Abram's 5 points were spot on and your comments illustrated the truth in them wonderfully (as did Pat and I never thought I'd say that) But wasn't it a bit disingenuous to use clips from FOX and CNN when some of the loudest Obama cheerleading and Hillary bashing was done on MSNBC....
~G

To the Graham Cracker Lady,

You’re giving us links to blogs? Is that supposed to be credible? Don’t think so. Anyone can say anything if someone somewhere is naive enough to believe it. We all have our sources and I use many, even the "other" side...as a credible family member says, "I need to know everything "they" are doing to know what "we" should do".

It' has all the links to the original cites
and firedoglake is a very credible site.

Agree Chris and Pat would make a good show. Isn't Abrams a managing dir of MSNBC?

They need some fresh faces, after 10 thye have prison shows, the repetitive sexual deviant "caught you shows". How do we pursue this?

"Has anyone ever thought about whether Bill Clinton could serve a more effective role in Barack's administration as opposed to Hillary's?"

I am truly on the floor laughing. Warren, you fascinate me. Is this a bunch of sexist claptrap or what? Best let the boys handle things.

Just like that OINKER Dana Milbank sneered an hour or so ago saying that Hillary's money problems "can't be solved with a bake sale."

DO YOU HEAR YOURSELVES?

I feel like I'm back in the days when Stokley Carmichael, speaking for the civil rights and anti-war movements said: "The only place for women in this movement is prone."

And you wonder what spurred the birth of the modern feminist movement?

Hey WJack...I'm not pretending to know what it all means, or whether it's right or wrong. All I know is that $100M is a lot of money, is a great number for a newspaper headline, and that there are bound to be a TON of questions as this election season wears on.

elaine of tampa: I guess we could write to MSNBC(shudder)

KGC

So now small time poker games are dens of corruption. Harry Truman would be shocked. I like the fact that Obama plays poker, It is good to know that he is a methodical cautious player. That would be better than the bet big and bluff idiot, we now have occupying the White House.
Although if I could just get dubya to come to my weekly game, I could quit working and retire. I could even be polite. What the hell as long as he brought plenty of money.

Jack

IRan
agree MSNBC has fallen to the bottom of the barrel. They need new blood. They are a media outlet.
I have been watching and I can't believe I am saying but I am really liking Buchanan. I dont agree philosophically but he has been more objective and has attempted to speak up for HRC.
I think Carig and Pat and Rachel would be great and fair.

Lets do it. Tell me where we need to go for action.

patsi

you are right, there is all kinds of sexism in this race.

I've GOT IT!

"Craig & Pat's MSNBC Dance Party"! One hour of nothing but dancing interspersed with political debate. Sort of Soul Train meets McNeil Lehrer. WHADDAYA THINK?

Of course, we'll have to wait for Craig's ankle to heal...

I know when a man yelled a HRC iron my shirts it was a big joek. If a woman had yelled at BO shine my shoes, we would have days of discusiion re rascism.

Julia...can we call it "Craig and Pat's Dance Date" instead of Dance Party? I think it would be lots sexier that way.

Sounds good Julia.

Elaine...check out link I just posted a second ago. That very point is made about shirt-ironing comments.

Jack

Posted by: whskyjack | February 6, 2008 9:48 PM

kind of like Duke Cunningham played poker

and I think you need to read more of the article if you think it is about playing poker

elaine of tampa: ack IRan?? oh great now McCain will want to bomb me and I just got a haircut.(tongue in cheek)(wait that's not my tongue)(or my cheek)

I don't see an e-mail address, probably won't show since I have java script turned off. oh well when in doubt wait for Jamie, I think she has a link

(*gigglesnorts* As much as I approve of the slash, LardassLiberal, that's not a ship I'm willing to sail... ;~D)

How about "Craig & Pat's Mystery Date Dance Party", that way they could have a "mystery guest"...and the kicker would be that even THEY wouldn't know who it was gonna be until the person showed up. One day it might be Kofi Annan, the next it'd be Paris Hilton.

Hey Ran...Please step out of the car and count backwards from 1,040 in multiples of seven, okay?
We're takin' you in, pal.

LardassLiberal: I don't know, that makes it sound like Craig and Pat are on a date

how about

Craig and Pat's Big Dancification and Fried Bologna Sammich Hour

Julia...I LOVE it. You've just perfected the concept. Let's go to the producers, NOW!

dang I'm bagged I can only do multiples of eleven

LOL Ran's title idea for the win!

OH, okay...the reference went right over my head, Lardass, but day-yam, that's a good one: just obscure enough, plus it combines C-SPAN with 60s teen dance show television, something that is VERY difficult to do! KUDOS to you!

LardassLiberal: phhhtttt, he probably stole it from someone else, isn't that how Robespierre started?

I am going to take a principled stand and agree with Julia

unless someone thinks I shouldn't

1,040...1,033...1,026...

We are a Country that commits War Crimes. See this posting on the admission of Waterboarding.

I can only say that its speaks volumes to what our country has become under Der Fuhrer Adolph Bush and the Dark Lord Dick {Heinrich Himmler} Cheney.

And both houses of Congress are complicit in War Crimes.

Read it here.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/5/16491/97712/63/450486

Signing off.

KGC
Not kinda like Duke at all.

Kinda like every court house and city hall in this nation.
Small time.
quote
"players left a few hundred dollars richer or poorer." /quote
That describes a 5 dollar limit poker game.
If you think those are big stakes you need to get out more. :-)
A place of relaxed access not rampant corruption. Now , show me the $1000 hookers and I might agree to your point ;-0

Jack

lardassLiberal
thanks it is agreat piece, need to send to everyone I know.

I think the author needs to be Craig and Pat's first guest. What about that.

Anon-Paranoid,

I probably don't like Bush-Cheney any more than you do. But to compare them to Hitler-Himmler is just stupid and it trivializes the horror of what the Nazis did on this planet in the 1930s and 1940s. What Hitler-Himmler did involved wholesale rounding up and extermination of an entire class of citizens...to the tune of 6 million plus. What's going on now in the world bears no relation to that horror.

Get a new comparison, sir. That one rings hollow.

LardassLiberal: ha ha jokes on you, you're going to have a remainder

Anon

As i said earlyier today . I would like the candidates have to answer this question.

"If , after you are elected president, you are brought evidence that members of the current adminisrtation have approve of war crimes will you prosecute and how will you do it.?"

I think that question should be ask at every debate

Jack

Ran, sorry poor typing.

And before anyone complains about the link you can google this and it will come up as it was just admitted in hearings and also mentioned by a White House spokesperson though I don't remember his name.

Signing off.

Ran...that's the whole point: You can try counting all the way back to ZERO...and you're STILL going to jail!!!

Here's the AP story link.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hgpBe3IQC85yFF1uNYz2rWHCfwZQD8UKTLF00

Signing off.

elaine of tampa: I was joking :-D

LardassLiberal: curses foiled again

Hey anon-paranoid...why don't you just go ahead sign off instead of just threatening to sign off before you post something else? M'kay?

You know, I don't have a problem with a do-over in Florida and Michigan. The previous primaries were fake anyway, where the other candidates were penalized for keeping their word. So why not do it over so that everyone is on an even playing field? Clinton "won" them before. Why can't she really win them in a second time?

you people are spending way too much time on line and writing way too much for the average bear to read in a day and still have a life.

yo soy Horsedooty!

when I first moved to New Hampster in 1980 and 1, I worked for a guy clearing trees from his property so he would have a better view of Mount Washington. With that in mind after the 2002 SotU address I wrote a piece on my then blog called, I, Ran: Axes of evil: The Story of a Rogue Lumberjack. It was pretty humorous..at least according to the guy that read it

Re: Nazi allegories in any discussion.

See Godwin's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

alpha

BO was advertising all over FL. Golden Boy did not keep his promise not to advertise. He had several private fundraisers and met with grass roots supporters.

Sen Clinton did not advertise

But again a double standard, everone let him get away with it. I have been an HRC supporter and thought he was ok, he lost my respect with that obvious slap to the process. We had the Kennedy ads, his bacground ads, etc.

"just stay the hell out of the mens room"

Larry! Is that you?

Okay...Signing off gang. As usual, it's been real. On to November!!!

Julia

Godwins Law;

That pretty much discribes the state of the discussion between the left and the
bush administration.
no reason to keep it going no useful information being exchanged.

Jack

Exactly, Jack.

LL...
There are reportedly over 2 million displaced Iraqi citizens displaced inside Iraq and over 1 million have fled the country.

Its been reported that over 600,000 thousand Iraqi people have been killed. That's innocent civilians including woman and children. There's no clean water, electricity, medical supplies and food for a great majority in Iraq.

Just because they won't admit the true death toll doesn't mean it does not exist or has not happened.

And that doesn't include the true death tool of our troops either. If there wounded they are immediately taken off the front and if they die on the way to the Hospital its not counted as a Iraq death. The true numbers they don't tell and this also don't include those maimed and crippled both physically and mentally.

There using weapons that are listed as WMD's like White Phosphorus, see link below.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1115-03.htm

They are also using cluster bombs in the cities which are not to be used in populated areas. These are the same type of bombs Israel used in Lebanon, see link below.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

Hillary also voted against banning the use of cluster bombs and Obama voted to ban them. I would have to find the story again on the bill the ban was in though.

So yes we have a modern day Nazi running our country aided and abetted by the RFN's along with enabling Democrats and Collaborators such as Judas Iscariot Lieberman.

So your damn well right I'll call them Nazi's. Oh and Prescott Bush the grandfather helped finance Hitlers Military as did many of our well known corporations such as IBM, Ford and General Electric.

I'm outta here now.

Signing off.

" Barack did not advertise in Florida, he advertised on national tv which happened to be carried in Florida. "

Bull. Do you not see how idiotic you sound?

Anybody have any results for New Mexico yet.. I haven't heard them --just wondered

Still counting the 16,000 provisional ballots. Hillary has a tiny lead, a hundred and somev votes..interesting..

Thanks OD

Anon

War is hell, always has been. But Iraq is just war with all the horrors war brings.
Bush and Cheny wouldn't make the pimple on the ass of a real nazi. They both are just cheap trick artists, two bit tin horns. They are stupid , ignorant and incompetent. It is best to remember that and not build them up into something they are not. It is best to get rid of them. Throw them in jail if they broke the law. But don't mock real evil by comparing it to such little pieces of shit.

Jack

Dick Morris on Fox just said Hillary carried Tennessee because Tennessee gets a lot of Akkansas television....WTF?

Patsi, I just your excellent article. Excellent!

True believer,
what ever the result I think they spilt the delegates equally.
Everthing else is just bragging rights.

Jack

that should be "just read..." It's been a long day. LOL

I'm sure Dick Morris meant that remark as an insult.
Iti is true that those familar with her work in the region on behalf of children and better schools, would be more inclined to support her.

Patsi

This is kind of my part of the country and I can tell you that is a bunch of bunk. The only big city in reach of that would be Memphis and except for one station in Jonesboro Ark. Everybody in eastern ARK listens to Memphis Tenn. Television.
I know that from spending alot of time working in Eastern ARK and I know I get for reception on TV

patsi

let me add to the praise.
Enjoyed it very much

So what is it about you Kansas women anyway;-)
It must be something in the water.
BTW my mother was raised just east of Ark city, little town called Silverdale. Much of what you described is familiar.

Maybe that is what makes Barack a good choice for president. He is half Kansan. Gotta be some good up bringin' in there somewhere

Jack

J-bragging rights help.

you know I don't think Dick has looked at a map. It is a long way from one end of Tennessee to the other. As has been said so far , Dick is full of himself.

Jack

tb

Some days bragging rights is all you get.

jack

Yes but appearance matters. especially to people who don't pay close attention to the details.

what was the falling out between Dick Morris and the Clintons anyway? Obviously there was one.

tb
there is a story out there somewhere you might try googling it.
To put it crudely
I always though he was like Stephanopolis just another in a long line of jilted lovers. Bill seems to attract that sort.

Jack

That should read
Bill seems to attract that sort, bless his heart.

See you can say any thing mean you want about a person if you just add "bless his heart" on the end. One of those useful Southernisms.

Jack

whskyjack...

I'm not mocking them. You might find the laws that got passed interesting reading if you want to see all the new powers gained by them.

These are the same powers used by current despots and dictators right now and he got his powers by passing laws that chipped away at the Constitution. The same way Hitler got his powers through legal means.

I've done numerous postings on these and have links to the laws and the powers he got from them. He has committed numerous High Crimes and Misdemeanors and he also Authorized War Crimes.

He has been spying on American Citizens since he took office which might explain why Pelosi took Impeachment off the table.

He got a 10,000 uniformed SS with the right to arrest without a warrant if they think you are going to do something wrong. Thought Police anyone.

He has the right to label anyone an enemy combatant under the MCA of 2006 including American Citizens. He can lock you up indefinitely with no right to a lawyer or a court hearing since you no longer have a right to Habeas Corpus.

He can also seize all your assets if you have any under an Executive Order. They were all given immunity for War Crimes committed under the American Wars Crimes Act also.

He can under the DOD of 2007 order National Guard from one state and send them to another state against both Governors objections to use in Police Actions against American Citizens. So there went Posse Comitatus.

And let us not forget NSPD 51 accompanied with its HSPD-20 which you can read about at my post at this link.

As for my closing my comments by saying Signing off, that's to say I'm done with my comment, not signing off the web.

I use to end my comments with a more friendly note, but the tone of Craigs site has changed and I don't want to bless anyone who don't want to be blessed.

So no, I not mocking them. All the reasons I listed above is why I don't believe that there will be elections. If I'm wrong, silly me. However, if I'm right Papers Please.

Signing off.

James Wolcott

“Perhaps it’s my atheism at work but I found myself increasingly wary of and resistant to the salvational fervor of the Obama campaign, the idealistic zeal divorced from any particular policy or cause and chariot-driven by pure euphoria. I can picture President Hillary in the White House dealing with a recalcitrant Republican faction; I can’t picture President Obama in the same role because his summons to history and call to hope seems to transcend legislative maneuvers and horse-trading; his charisma is on a more ethereal plane, and I don’t look to politics for transcendence and self-certification.”

Sorry, forgot the link.

http://america-weeps.blogspot.com/2007/09/president-signs-mass-arrest-order.html

Go ahead and read it and read all the links in it.

Signing off.

Enough of these caucuses. People who are in the military don't get represented, night workers miss the caucus, low income workers who can't afford babysitters can't go and the elderly find it difficult. No Caucus in Florida. The votes are there, they were all on the ballot , no one campaigned (except for a few ads by Obama and private fundraisers that I believe they all did) and that's that. If you want Michigan to run again, even though the candidates could have left there names on the ballot (like Dodd and Kucinich did), fine. BUT NO CAUCUS they are too restrictive and disenfranchise a lot of voters.

Patsi:

So I take it you have never thought of this. Neither had I. But it struck me the other night after a cab driver defended his support for Hillary Clinton on the two-for-one basis.

I too think that Bill can be a huge asset to any President. And that says nothing about what I think about any particular candidate.

I do not subscribe to the philosophy that we "[b]est let the boys handle things." Being raised by a single independent and strong woman eliminated such notions from my perspective at a young age. I think women and feminine approaches to problem solving, among other issues, need to play a bigger role in politics all over the world.

Anyime Bill and Hill work as a tag-team as opposed to a single politician - these questions are raised. By the GOP, the Dems, the media and many Americans.

His campaign, his Whitehouse, her campaign - and the same questions would be raised in her administration. I certainly don't know that the Clintons could not navigate through these delicate issues...but it MAY limit Bill Clinton's role.

Under Obama, Bill could step right in as the wise old jedi taking the fresh young and gifted leader under his wing. I think that would be good for America and it is not because I think Obama "needs" Bill - but rather that Bill is great. With Barack-Bill, there would be none of these thorny issues that will be raised by having a first couple.

And I have not had a chance to review all the comments - but I apologize if I (or Pasti's spin) offended anyone.

I would choose Hillary over McCain to handle Iraq any day.

I feel like Chris Matthews! Hah!

Patsi:

One last point on this. My mom voted for Barack Obama.

"Under Obama, Bill could step right in as the wise old jedi taking the fresh young and gifted leader under his wing."

ROFL....and leave the ball busting witch in the dust. Ig'nert.

Warren -- I have no problem who your mother voted for.

Still more new faces. Welcome aboard!

tt

Hillary's lead in NM up to 1092 (CNN Election Center)
Have no idea how many thousands still need to be counted.

While I don't believe Edwards would take Clinton OR BO offer anyway, I do think Huckabee would take a veep offer from McCain.
McCain certainly sees what's going on, and southern Christian / Evangelicals rejected Romney big-time in favor of Huckabee.

Huckabee will be a finalist for Time's Person of the Year.
He came from a rogue plan to run for president to being the frontrunner for Vice President candidate of the repugg ticket.

Look how much better he did than powerful eastern senators of his opponent's party, Dodd and Biden.

I bet most everybody thought Huckabee would be the Mike Gravel of the repuggs...easily cast aside.

He's still in it...POST FEBRUARY FIFTH! This is amazing.
What if ancient McCain submits to the stress and strokes out or goes off his nut? Guess who the front runner will be?

If this country could elect a B-movie actor and a goofy preppy elite rich kid to 1600...half the population would be ecstatic to vote for Huckabee as an alternative to a BO or a Clinton.

"ROFL....and leave the ball busting witch in the dust. Ig'nert."

I don't even know what that sentence means.

..can't help it folks...I spent so much time campaigning against Reagan, passing out fliers, serving on PACS in our union, "speechifying" to the membership on how we had to vote Reagan out...whenever I see or hear what a great prez that confused old bastard was, I wanna puke!
Chris Hardballs says it daily, and he knows better...and those repugg debates are so full of lies and distortions about Reagan I sit there and have an argument against every point they say is a great thing that tool stood for.

So maybe you prospered under Reagan...I did NOT.
Maybe I love Bill Clinton so much because I prospered during his 8 years...that's just how it was for me.

Dexter:

Recently, "powerful eastern" politicians have not done well in national contests.

No, warren, governors from southern states might be better bets over all, but my point is that Dodd and Biden were taken WAY more seriously than Huckabee was.
Huckabee was a joke-candidate.
Now look at him.

I agree. It is a great story that we still don't know the end to yet.

Huckabee gets big points for authenticity and he bases his conservative view on the altruism of religion rather than fire and brimstone.

Michael Moore last night on Larry King said he has a very hard time voting for Hillary because she voted yes on every bill to keep funding the war. How can she convince people to vote for you who feel the same way.

vadaryl:

I have made that my point of contention since I came to Crawfordslist.
Most of my friends have chosen O over HRC...I have not, at least yet.
At least HRC does not represent herself as something she is not.
She has a lot of sway...she has been hawkish on Iraq, and when crazy old McInsane calls her a surrender candidate he is lying.
She can SAY she will end the war, while she leaves gigantic open windows to keep the military there forever...she is keeping that US embarrassment, that US embassy, built by forced labor of Kuwait construction companies,(the workers were told they were going to some other country to work in hotel service jobs...then slaved out to the American embassy project) open , she has promised nearby strike forces indefinitely to jump in when something blows up (and shit WILL blow up)...so Hillary Clinton is honest ...more than Obama is...as soon as he got to the Senate he has been a Bush Democrat ALL THE WAY on funding the dirty war.
I suppose he thinks he is doing good by that...but the Vietnam war WOULD STILL BE GOING ON UNLESS CONGRESS FINALLY PULLED THE MONEY OUT IN 1975!
This is why Obama is a liar and a fool...he cannot honestly expect intelligent folks to read the voting records of The Senate and not see what a goddam hawk he is.
Right now I lean towards HRC anyway, only due to her honesty.
For me, the differences in their domestic proposed agendas won't affect me...for me, it's all about the war.

Since O is pushing his no vote, if he did vote yes to keep funding the war, then why is he not taking any heat for that.

You can't have it both ways!

Wait Craig, Clinton has to lend herself $5 mil and staffers are not getting paid, and that's not a headline on this site? A sign that her campaign has some issues? Oh yeah, forgot. Obama needs to control the old expectations game. That's important.

"Clinton faced a serious cash crunch going into Tuesday's multi-state vote due to overspending in Iowa, a source within the campaign told NBC News. Staffers blamed campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle, who was among those working for free, the source said."

I feel O is like the Robert Redford character in the movie The Candidate. Redford's character becomes a great candidate, wins the election and at the end of the movie he goes into a room with his aids and says now what do I do.

I know Huckie is not going to win but hay he's out there with little money. So it can be done.

Who needs money, have Bill say something and you get all the free press you want. Maybe Hillary should show her soft side and get more headlines.

vadaryl:

Great question! Why IS O left off the hook on his war vote?
Ask Bill CLinton...he was called a racist for telling the country the truth about the Obama failry tale about his war-vote.

I know Fat Tuesday is long gone...but here is a video that captures the flavor of how Paczki Day rolls in Detroit.

http://www.vimeo.com/666803/

I don't see the Republican establishment supporting Huckabee essentially because I don't think they will support a real talking Christian as they don't seem to have much interest in the poor and afflicted.

and I don't think he will do well with the Independents because of his views on homosexuality and abortion rights or moderate Republicans with his apparent cluelessness on foreign policy. I don't think he brings enough to the table to get the nod for Vice President job either. I, for one, would love to see it though.

I think he's just doing well because the Republicans don't have much to offer. The Evangelicals didn't vote for McCain because of moral issues, they don't trust Romney's religion, Huckabee was their only choice. Add to that the Religious Right know that if they stick together on a candidate that they will have a better chance at having some say at the Republican convention.

The Democrats mantra should be : a vote for McCain is a vote for four more years of George W Bush

rinse and repeat

Bear: yesterday you mentioned South Florida and the Cuban population. It's my understanding that the younger generation has been leaning to the left. There are three generations now that have been born in the US and the disconnect from pre-Castro Cuba is growing as the older folks die. I'm not sure how much of a swing that is but it was noticeable enough that a few people wrote about it.

..of course I could be wrong

Let me know the minute you hear any of them are coming to Toledo...I'll have a full tank of gasoline and be ready.

"" asked her what would happen if Obama lost. She told me her generation would once again feel disaffected and that the big money machines control everything. I told her of the same feelings I felt when I was her age and people voted for Nixon over McGovern, and encouraged her to stay engaged. She told me that her generation's payback will be when all us boomers are unable to retire and forced to work at Wal*Mart since social security and medicade will be bankrupt and that they wouldn't bail us out.

I told you she was smart!

Posted by: dnd | February 6, 2008""

All due respect I don't find that smart but dangerously ignorant. It reminds me of a very brief video on youtube, it's about 20 seconds long and it is Sean Hannity (yes that nut) and he has some of his guys in another location with a bunch of Obama supporters..all young, all that look like this girl you're probably talking about. there must be 3 dozen of them there.

Hannity told his on the scene guy to ask these young people who were all fiercely supporting Obama and going to vote for him, Hannity had one question for these ppl.. he asked them to name 1 accomplishment of Obama's.

So the guy in the room who has Hannity in an ear piece turned around to this large group of Obama supporters and asked them if anyone could name one accomplishment of Obama's.

Not one single supporter was able to come up with an answer.. not one of them!

this to me is a dangerous voter, as dangerous as the bush sheep in 2000. it's just another setting another person drawing the sheep.

Obama is not qualified to be president. the media hasn't fully vetted him. the majority of people don't know anything about him or the truth behind a lot of important issues he's lied on.

he's a great orator, he's got charisma and wow can he preach to his pulpit, but these are not qualifications for a president.

his young followers, aka sheep don't know about Rezko or Exelon and sadly don't care. they don't care about his missed votes, his votes of "present" or his desertion of the Illinois Vets.

it's very sad to see the media fall all over this guy who hasn't paid his dues and is being handed this crown over someone who has earned the right to be here imo. Obama shouldn't even be in the race, it's an embarrassment imo.

Even right now I'm watching Colbert and his guest, a democratic strategist says Obama won last night because he got the most delegates.

HE DID NOT GET THE MOST DELEGATES OR THE MOST VOTES OF THE NIGHT!

Add to that Hillary taking Calif, NJ, NY and Massachusetts, Kennedy territory, she had a HUGE NIGHT.

the media won't give her a break and Obama is their royalty. while he was home arrogantly writing books about himself, Hillary was out working for the people, but Obama sheep don't care.

One more thing. the media, specifically some ppl on cnn who hate her (they all hate her no matter the cable news network), but on cnn jack Cafferty and the normal crew there , they said emphatically whoever wins Calif, won the night.

Hillary won Calif and won it big. Do you think any of them acknowledged this and gave her this huge victory?

hell no, they were too busy throwing adulation at Obama.

The guy has no substance and I find him arrogant as hell. I would remind people that "change" is a word and he's never taken it beyond a word.

While he's preaching to end the partisanship in Washington, Hillary was working on committees with right wing extremist like Lindsey Graham and Rick Santorim in order to get things done, putting partisanship aside for the betterment of the people.

Do these young Obama fans have a clue about things like this? hell no, they don't even undersant what it takes to make a gov to work and function..they are wrapped up in a preacher with charisma.

They may be able to figure out your latest technical gadget, but when it really comes to politics, government, international relations, responsibilities of what in reality it takes to oversee the welfare of 300,000,000,000 people, they don't know shit from apple butter.

and if you ask them, they apparently can't name one single Obama accomplishment.

I find that horribly sad.

He won the support of many white men, a group that had voted for John Edwards of North Carolina before Mr. Edwards dropped out of the race last week. Mr. Obama seems to have cut the long-established ties between black voters and the Clintons. He made slight inroads among Hispanic voters, a solid part of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s base.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/us/politics/07dems.html?hp

Yeh he "broke those long-established ties between black voters and the Clintons" by doing one thing .. he's half black and that's what "broke those ties"

The Clintons have done more for blacks for 30 yrs than Obama will do in his lifetime but the minute he came on the scene loyalty to those who've done something for you goes right out the window. He's half blak and lived a very priviledged life (no matter what he claims), but as long as his skin is brown they'll flock to their brother. The media will NEVER touch this topic but they know it's true.. all this talk of race during the campaign.. they talk about it a lot, but they don't ever go near the obvious.. blacks are voting for him simply because of his color. It's major reverse racism going on here.

by the way, Mrs Hillary Clinton or Senator Clinton. She does not use the name Rodham anymore.

The media shows her no respect and doesnt' seem to care that she dropped her maiden name, so they continue to use it, but in actuality if anyone cares, she did drop it.

President Hillary Cllinton

I believe the DNC made a mistake with their treatment of Michigan and Florida, but seating the delegates based on the elections that were held wouldn't be fair either for the following reasons:

1. Because it was widely known that the results would be meaningless, I'm sure many people did not bother to vote. These people would be disenfranchised and this would invalidate the results because the results would have been different.

2. Because there was no campaigning, no advertising, no organizing, no get out the vote movement, the results were not the same as they would have been if candidates were allowed to campaign. Using these results would be even more unfair than having eliminated these states from consideration in the first place because these results do not represent what the result would have been if a campaign had taken place.

There are only two seemingly fair solutions to this, one probably fairer than the other.

1. One solution, which was mentioned in Craig's article, is to run new contests in the future, and give the candidates enough time to organize, campaign, and advertise prior to the voting. That will make the results meaningful.

2. The other solution is to follow the rules that were agreed to by the DNC and the candidates. Sometimes we have to learn from our mistakes and move on because it would be even more unfair to try to fix them in any other way.

The bottom line is it is unfair to use the existing resutls because they do not accurately reflect what the result would have been if a fair election were held. If you change the rules after the election, it seem like you are trying to steal the election for one candidate...in the case Senator Clinton. The DNC made a dumb mistake and none of the candidates fought them on it at that time. They should live with their decision and learn from it rather than making matters much worse.

Obama said he would seat the florida delegation
if he won...when he campaigned there is September
but since he didn't he wants a do over?

But a revote would be eminently fair.

(Does Florida allow independents to vote in primaries? Or is it closed?)

will the Obama campaign be footing the bill?

The state of Florida has already paid for one election why should they pay because one candidate wants a do over. The DNC said they would honor the results of the January 29 primary. There was a big turnout.
It looks like sore loser time to me.

Everyone was equal in Florida. It looks like Obama only wants a do over where he lost.

Everyone was equal in Florida. It looks like Obama only wants a do over where he lost.

Posted by: Vote until they Vote for Obama | February 7, 2008 6:27 AM

I agree with you for Florida. The Florididianswere ready. But Michigan was shady. So do that one over.

CLinton and Kucinich were the only ones on, after The rest were assured the vote would not count. So we had Clinton, Kucinich, Other, and write in.

most did not know that the Write in did not count until eleventh hour. it turned into a mess that was the States fault.

But its not the voters fault. Let a revote happen here.

The post listing all the reason why there should be a do over in Florida has a lot of factual errors including on the turnout. There was a higher percentage of turn out of Democrats in Florida then in SC

Obama wants to change the rules when it suits him
don't seat Florida and eliminate the super delegates.
How new politics of him.

http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/results/votes/index.html

Primary election results and the months forward.

Absolutely, Michgan is a different story and they should have a do over. And apparently Senator Levin should pay for it.

Obama wants to change the rules when it suits him
don't seat Florida and eliminate the super delegates.
How new politics of him.

Posted by: Vote until they Vote for Obama | February 7, 2008 6:33 AM

All Right! Trying to Whip Something up here?.....Obama is not trying to get a revote of anything.

AND YOU ARE A TROLL until you stop spinning. You know that is not true. ;0)

You are the ones suggesting the revote
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll

Good morning Sheila...
Florida is a closed Primary State. Since I'm Independent I could not vote for Obama.

I refuse to change to Democratic because they have not earned it.

My two cents worth. At work, got to go.

Take care Sheila and ...

God Bless you.

I am so pissed off about the crap being spewed about Hillary and writing a check for $5 million. So f***ing what!!! Mittens been writing checks for months!!! Just sent her a little something. Go Hillary!

Seating the current delegates for both Florida and Michigan doesn't seem to make much sense. Of course Clinton wants to seat them - 1) she was the only one on the MI ballot and 2) candidates would not travel to FL and MI to campaign which obviously tips the balance towards the familiar Clinton name..

I'm for the Super delegates to vote with their constituents and for there being caucuses or second primaries in these two states.

Florida and Michigan are in different situations and we cannot compare them with each other.
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John Cena
http://www.addictionrecovery.net/michigan