Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

Just making sure people don't forget this one:

"I understand that Senator Clinton, 'periodically' when she's 'feeling down', launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal."

--Sen. Barack Obama the sexist --- er, saint

"And don't think you can impress me with your famous friends!! Just kidding, it worked."

Please don't think Woody is a friend or even acquaintance of mine. As I said, I was just there as a guest of someone else. Woody only happened to hear one comment and laughed.

Brian...get over yourself.There are many more names I could drop if so inclined. You just can't stand the fact that you weren't tight with Truman.

just one less cow

http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/would-you-like-sick-cow-with-those-fries/

We sat at our screens and tapped out howls of JOY! on election night, 2006, right on this blog.
WE had captured Congress! WE were going to end the war, now, by god...we'd show Bush, yes we would.

How'd that work out for us, Crawfordslisters / TrailMixers?
We learned the power is in the White House.
We want change.
For me that means deposing the Republicans.
To hell with Congress.

Patsi:

I am not impressed by the name dropping. I am impressed by your willingness to mix it up with the names you dropped.

Pats
I don't think anyone here will really care if Obama is sexist or not. If you protest too loudly, you might become a racist, or worse, a NEOCON.

I posted some links to Obama's advisor in Syria just as one of the worst terrorists who had free reign in Syria was blown up. The the country that tortured the Canadian citizen that Bush sent had a great photo op with Zbig and Assad as they talked of mutually shared goals. The destruction of Israel, the more than 400 attacks that terrorist had conducted? Odfcourse Zbig isn't plotting with Assad but what gain and what signal? And then Zbig was shuttled away as the Iranians came to town to denounce the murder of one of the most vile terrorists....LOL

The question is whether Hispanics, Jews, women, Reagan Democrats and Independents gets so pissed over the litany of issues brushed aside by Obama and media, they consider McCain. The dude said he won't run a second term and the Democrats can check him in Congress. He is likely to consent to Amnesty, tow a tough line around the world, fail to get any terrible judges past Congress, not keep all the tax cuts and actual lower the deficit.

The question is whether enough people will punish the Democrats for the Pelosi/Reid/Obama/Dean spin of their party which includes playing race and sexism while delighting in media bias. I have never voted for a Republican. It does go against the grain, but the purge of DLCers, the B.S. foreign policy suggestions, and the contemptable pandering to the Kos crowd derserves some rebuke. Should I be loyal or wrong? Should I take retribution against the slander and vague rhetoric and reward the Democrats for a job poorly done? Romney would be out of the question, but McCain might actually be a decent centrist.

I don't see Obama carrying any big sticks while Chavez, Assad, Ahmadinejad, Putin continue to push against their neighbors and arm even more. Putin actually calls our shooting down an errant sat a crime while saying zip on a earlier Chinese ASAT test that left debris threatening the US and RUssia on the space station. Don't expect Obama to call anyone out on a double standard. That is far too Republican Lite. With the Congress behind him, what damage could a poor Obama administration do? At least the Clinton WH brought about some improvement.

So if Obama wins this (using whatever means), should Democrats and Independents vote Obama Liberal? For me at least, I will give McCain a serious chance to convince me. By the time Obama leaves office Iran will be tipping their missiles and Chavez will likely be engaged in threatening his neighbors to stay in office. Let's see if Obama praises Kosovo's Independence (sorry UI). I doubt however he will answer any serious questions. Identitiy politics is rather lame and without substance. Che was no Ali.

And Craig, not one word about Zbig, Rice and the Obama foreign policy team. What does Obama do as head of the Senate Foreign Relations Sub Committee on Eastern Europe and NATO? Maybe you can ask around. Haven't heard Obama pressing for more NATO support in Afghanistan. Haven't heard support of NATO in Romania and Bulgaria. Putin threatens to target Ukraine with missiles. Is foreign policy just Iraq? JFK had tougher questions. All Obama has to do is dance.

Dexter:

We learned 50-50 plus one Bush does not get us too far.

The more you read into it - the further you get from the truth.

Maxtrue:

I hope the first black President can dance.

I wouldn't know where to begin with the rest of what you said. Except to say, that I would hope you give every candidate a "serious chance to convince" you they should be President.

only republicans or republican enablers will consider voting for Walnuts McCain.

I see this everytime I hear someone say they're considering McCain......

http://www.basehead.org/files/shots/1-mccain_bush_hug.jpg

It doesnt get any plainer than that picture, which actually IS worth a few thousand words.......

I said all he has to do is dance. I guess I shouldn't expect you to spend much time exploring foreign policy. It is such an unimportant topic

Yes, sturgie, Democrats should only vote for Democrats and Independents should be Independent. Sounds pretty bright. What did I expect from the Obama side? You do know what centrifuges are, You do know who I mean by Zbig. Maybe everything outside America is a joke. Perhaps that is why you were so startled by 9/11. The guy just blown up in Syria was responsible for many more attacks than Bin Laden. Attacks that happened during Clinton's watch.

I guess your faith is in some ways like Robertson. Can Obama screw things up?

"Yes we can".

Maxtrue:

I majored in IR and Foreign Policy guides my vote. Your dismissive attitude bespeaks ignorance.

Sure miss the Patsi that didn't spend most of her posts subtley or otherwise, making angry bitter statements.

I really do...

I'm not the obama side......I'm the hillary side.

and yes.....anyone (independent or democrat or other) who would even consider voting for McCain is a Bush supporter.

when I say supporter......well...check out McCain's left hand.

Maxture,

I would think that you, of all blogers, would have made up your mind which party suits you and reflects your deep feelings about the right and wrong of the world.

If Obama did become the NOM, you would give McCain some serious thought? I would have figured that you have already made an informed decsion on McCain, like all the rest of us on this blog....

Interesting that you would have to revisit all that McCain stands for. Interesting that you haven't made up your mind yet.

verrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting.......

---Artie Johnson

Arte Johnson......major culpa

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2716

THen if you are such a fioreign policy wonk, answer my questions. I have posted several dozen. How many times has Obama even held a meeting as head of the Senate Foreign Relations Sub Committee on Eastern Europe and NATO? Does Obama support Odum's idea of a Grand Bargin with Iran? Doe you support Obama's suggestion of sending troops into the Kyber Pass? Do you support the notion that NATO has failed to meet its obligation in Afghanistan with several countries not even wanting to go into fire zones? Does Obama support the idea of defending neighbors of Chavez from his threats or if you think FARC is a liberation army? Do you support the notion of Putin that the destruction of a US sat is a ruse to test missile defense. Does Obama even support missile defense. Is Hamas a terrorist organization? Where did Iran construct their P-2 centrifuges? Why did Syria cover the Israeli blast site with several feet of concrete so radation could not be detected from US spy sats? I could go on, but the answers would reveal much of what you or Obama see as cogent foreign policy.

Do you know what Obama said about Iran in 2004? Whay did he not vote yes or no on recent sanctions against Iran in light of his speech to AIPAC? What did ZBIG achieve in Syria as a most wanted terrorist was terminated with Syria and Iran blaming Israel and threatening retaliation? Do you believe this guy was a freedom fighter?

I could go on and on, but at least McCain isn't afraid to answer.

And you do know what Piro said about his interrogation of Saddam.

Funny with your back ground you give Obama a free pass and support the notion that Hillary is the pandering flip-flopper. So go ahead. Let's here it.

Oh, and I have lots more questions too. Obama's vet record. His prinicipled stand on nuclear regulation in his home state. His remarks on Iraq in 2004 which he attributed to trying to help Kerry...LOL

And many more, but the funny thing is, Obama won't address them. I also said quite specifically that one term of McCain contained by a Democratic Congress would be better than a liberated Obama giving us a Bay of Pigs 2. You know, the guy who Obama lifts rheotric and image from, but not substance. Or shall we compare Reagan with Obama. You know the guy who Star Warred the Soviets into no mas, no mas,

sorry about the typos. I am eating a huge sub as I write this. Mo wonder there's mustard now on my keyboard.

Just wanted you to know....LOL

anyone who "considers" McCain is a Bush supporter.
and reagan was a silly actor with alzheimer's......

Oh and by the way I am a definate social Liberal. I also am more of a JFK hawk in the sense of the kind of realism, Truman, FDR and JFK had about the world. If they were alive, they would clearly be supporting Hillary and wonder why the Dean Wing has ejected most of the hawks and DLCers. They would be opposed to the Kos.HUff wing. My remark comes as I weigh the foreign policy of Obama versus the conservative social vlaues of McCain. No, i don't want to be in Iraq for a hundred years as defenders, but then it is a complete deluusion (or outright lie) that leaving Iraq will promote peace. Jon Stewart rejects that idea and says violence will come. His take is that Iraqis just can't keep from killing each other. If you know how Assad or Ahmadinejad think, our retreat is their green light.

Oh and Obama's position on the Sudan? Does he agree with Carter/ZBig that it wasn't genocide? Somalia and kenya? Should we really be building nukes in Algeria and Yemen? Silent subs for Chavez? How about a Russian sub base, JFK would have loved that. Arms factories in Caracas? No wonder Chavez is pumping the US is attacking rant. NK really has no other nuke programs?

Surely talking will resolve these issues. So don't paint me some NEOCON. If my thinking process is NEOCON then remove all modern Democratic Presidents except Carter from the Democratic camp of today. Democrats were the greatest wartime administrations and kossaks would have them become pussies in the face of brutal, absuing thugs. Hell, Wilson tried to pass a sedition act and everyone screams Bush has butchered the Constitution. Exaggeration serves nothing but partisan purposeds that marginalize the center. Nothing wrong with center, but Obama supporters call that NEOCON or Republican Lite. I don't join no religions. My English is quite intentional.

Tell that Reagan comment to Obama......right?

McCain hates Bush or did you forget the black baby attack in 2002? He created a truce while taking the biggest pot shots at Bush in an attempt to win the nomination. He called for Rummie to be fired, so let's be honest and stop the hyperpartisanship. Have some shred of respect for evidence. Yeah the country and the world really thinks Reagan was a crap President. I can list all the stuff that made me furious, but your characterization is just straight partisan. Did you blast Obama for his Reagan comments?

LOL...black baby attack in 2000...now there's mustard on my mouse...

Sleep tight yall.

patsi you silly name-dropper,
I'm an Eisenhower baby, not Truman. And in case I didn't say it, I think it's so cool that only Woody got your joke. But you know we jews love a good word play, we are the people of the book after all.

Maybe one day you'll regale us with your tales of growing up during the Harding Administration, after all you seem to know everyone, at least that's what you keep telling us.

Maxtrue:

You speak a lot of nonsense, Have you ever been to the Reagan Library - it is in a beautiful place?

The footprints of Jedi go forgotten.

Er, Brian.....the ex-pres wasn't the Truman I was talking about. That would be of the Capote kind.

"Sure miss the Patsi that didn't spend most of her posts subtley or otherwise, making angry bitter statements."

Here's the thing, Sheila. For quite a while I held my "tongue" as you and Brian started making little comments about Hillary Clinton. Brian's were up front snark. You tend to be extremely passive aggressive, with an underlying mean streak. Slip in snotty comments, then say "Oh, tee hee, just kidding." THEN, when anyone comes back, you go into self-righteous nun mode, slap people on the hand then cry for civility. That's the pattern.

When Nash or anyone says outrageous things, your response is LOLOLOL. But God forbid one on the other side do likewise.

You did your best to make people with opposing thoughts leave. They didn't.

Has anyone noticed that the new Maytag "repair man" in TV commercials looks an awful lot like Jeb Bush?

Maybe Jeb wants to keep his face in public view, so that he can run in 2012, despite Dubya's mangling of the family business.

Patsi,

I can assure you that I have never made a derogatory comment about etiher Bill or Hillary Clinton. Go ahead and go back through every comment mande on this blog, since I came back in November.

I admit a mistake about sounding "Used Car Saleman Like' but except for that, I have never even talked policy about the Clintons.

I've kept my mouth shut over the overt angry statements on this blog.

You.....I can't figure how you have lumped me into Brian's comments.....I don't even type Tee Hee hee....never even crossed my mind. Neither do I just Just kid

Nash, Is my friend. He was there at the beginning and he's off the wall. If he says something funny, I will laugh.

Patsi said,
THEN, when anyone comes back, you go into self-righteous nun mode, slap people on the hand then cry for civility. That's the pattern

You are so wrong. You have painted me into something I am just not.

And last but not least, I've done my best to understand all the anger on this blog....still don't, but I accept it.

My take is, you have come apart at the seams. You have lied to yourself about me and I don't understand, but you know what is really wrong here.

So I would apreciate it if you would just cease and desist when it comes to hit and run nasty bitter comments about me.

Unless you are willing to come up with more than one post that I was being rude and nasty, STOP talking about me or to me.

If you are willing to bury the hatchet, I'm game. Other than that, please just leave me alone.

To all the rest of you, Please point out when "sheila" is being mean and nasty.

I am and always will be nice and civil, its in my nature. But I will also enter discussions and move discussions forward if I feel I have something to say.

Oh Patsi,

You don't even understand. This board is dominated by Clintonites who act like spoiled children. Your candidate went from thinking she deserved the nomination because, well, she was Hillary. And when it didn't happen, she and her supporters didn't know what to do. So you attack Barack for being everything Hillary isn't. And so we Obama supporters get a kick watching you guys squirm. See, we believe in our candidate. We find him refreshing, interesting, smart and damn able to lead this country. You guys still can't believe that your "35 years of experience" candidate is steadily losing.

Well Patsi, Hillary's going to lose. Yes, they'll do whatever backhanded thing they can to win, but she's going to lose. And those are the breaks. So the Obamanation is going to continue to tweak all of you Clintonites. Everytime Craig puts up some headline that is sour on Barack, we'll smile and continue to point to the scoreboard. And we'll be in DC for the swearing in of Barack Obama. Hey, I'm rooting for Hillary as Senate Majority Leader. That's where folks with "35 years of Experience" can be most effective.

PS: Does she count her years as a Goldwater Girl in those 35 years? Just asking.

Alpha,

Forgive me, but this was actually my fight with Patsi. I needed to have a heart to heart.

I understand your Verve, believe me, but what we just wrote to each other REALLY has nothing to do with Clinton and Obama and more to do with Patsi trying to bate me..

Sorry

Oh And Patsi, Brian is not Sheila is Not Brian. We are too very diffferent individuals who happen to find political discourse particularly FUN. I enjoy what Brian offers in his tactical and strategic analysis. He's great!

I enjoy Colleen's thoughts. She has alot to say. I enjoy Nash for his ooff the wall but particularly sharp analysis. I enjoy Jamie's research very much.

I enjoy Renee's sweetness on the lbog each day....ok And The sports commentary.

I am enjoy Burrito and Wino who even though I don't agree, bring forth good points and can take life a little less seriously.

OH AND don't forgetter DOOTS and our newest WONK Warren.....Warren is well worth the read.

Like I've said before, I get along with FRY too,

So don't lump me into becoming SHEBRI....or many BRISHE.....Or BREIALA OR SHIAN....whatever.

Brian is his own agent.

Max,

"""McCain hates Bush or did you forget the black baby attack in 2002? He created a truce while taking the biggest pot shots at Bush in an attempt to win the nomination"""

McCain used to be the type of person who didn't sleep with the enemy, no matter who was in charge. He stood up for his beliefs and his constiuents. I have seen THAT McCain since the "Black Baby" smear....

McCain has been endearing himself to Bush/Rove since then for this run. I can't respect someone like that, not matter how much I liked them in the past.

And Max,

Did you blast Obama for his Reagan comments?"""

I've read and read it. Obama's intended meaning was clear. He thought the way inwhich Reagan ran his Adminstration IE Many many Experts and group consensus was life altering for the country.

In terms of management only.

Obama also clarified by noting that he would run a DEMOCRATIC Administration the same way. That is all.

I realize though, that the Hill Camp DID spin it for campaign fodder.

Good try and brilliant try, just not brilliant enough for Obama Campaign Strategists who caught it and lobbed it back in time.

Before I get to work,

Patsi I AM REALLY sad it has come to this. When I wrote that post last night, I was hoping you would really understand its meaning.

You've known me for a long time and in all that time, I have never changed.

I'm just sorry that you have molded me into something I am just NOT.

I watch how rude you are to others who don't agree with Clinton. There are some who are totally rude and may deserve it and some who are just arguing opposite views.

I won't promise you that I will stop defending the ones that are being misunderstood.

Ok, I'm gone to work. have at it! ;0)

MaxTrue question. Can you clarify your comments about NATO support in Romania and Bulgaria?

Has anyone ever stopped to think this is politics?

Since when has politics NOT been nasty?

By their very nature, politicians will fight tooth and nail to win. Just like Obama did with his attacks against Hillary when his poll numbers were down and Hillary was ahead. Just like Hillary did when she saw that Obama's attacks were starting to work.

It doesn't matter which candidate gets the nomination. You can toss the "new politics" speech right out the window. If Obama is the nominee you can bet your house, your money, your loved ones on the reality that HE WILL ATTACK! McCain will attack; he will attack. This will be nasty like all the Presidential campaigns become.

Really, we can "hope" all we want for this political paradigm shift, but it isn't going to happen any time soon. In fact, it won't happen until there are MAJOR structural changes in the making of politics in the United States:

*Publicly funded elections with strict $$$ limits
*End of corporate political parties holding a structural monopoly
*Requirement that the candidates discuss issues with REAL debates on VISION and ideas -- sans personal attacks
*An end to lobbyists
*An end to the "professional" political handlers who pocket millions for themselves win or lose.
*Require voting as a duty of citizenship -- If you love America, you must understand that this is but a small obligation. Oh and it ends all the fighting of each side trying to stop the other side's voters from casting ballots.
*End the Electoral College
*Civility in all political discourse in and out of the political branches.

I would add that Proportional Representation would be far more fair than the winner-take-all system in Congressional Districts, but I can't really see how that would work. You would end up with a far larger number of Reps and Senators in Congress and I doubt that would help much.

Anyway, you want "new politics"? Demand a structural change in politics and governance.

You know the media just will not give Hillary a break. This Morning on a network this comment was made.
Hillary is leaving Wisc. on Monday. She must be giving up on that state, that is not good, she could come in close to him.
NOW, yesterday when Obama was spending Valentine's Day in Chicago, he was NOT ACCUSED of giving up. It was ok for him but not for her. This is making me sick.
Hillary will win it all and then the media and deal with that and SHE, as president, can deal with the media.
I guess I am plain tired of this media marriage to Obama.

""Man, I didn't realize 'you people' were literate."
I said, "Yeah, and some of us can actually read."
The only person at the table who laughed was Woody Allen."

Got to watch that reading stuff and as for dropping names, here is the instructional manual on how to do it correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z7MKV6e3yk

"And we'll be in DC for the swearing in of Barack Obama. Hey, I'm rooting for Hillary as Senate Majority Leader. That's where folks with "35 years of Experience" can be most effective. "

I do agree with alpha that Hillary has been a much more effective senator than her opponent.

Alpha says Hillary is going to lose in the race for Democratic nominee He may be right, but unless Michigan and Florida are treated right, those states will NOT go Democratic which will create a BIG burden for whomever is the Democratic nominee. If I were to choose, I'd say take Florida as it is, and revote Michigan with both Obama and Clinton's name on the ballot.

inTERNa-seen

??

EuroTom: how do you know how Florida and Michigan will vote in the fall? You are pulling that out of thin air.

The Iraq War and the economy will still be major concerns in November 2008. Cannot imagine anyone looking past those to say: wow, I am really mad about the DNC's arbitrary primary system in my state. Let me sit on my hands and watch this one go to _____.

Sr Dooty suggested those of us with the ability to see the future use those talents at the horsetrack. Think of the money you guys could win for donating to a suitable charity!

At the very least, you guys need to warn Craig of the next tree, sidewalk or step that looms up to entangle him.

Fish

That pronunciation of internecine through me for a minute as well.

He did it again

inter
nuh
seen

maybe he is thinking of baby doctors hiding in a broom closet sleeping? Intern unseen.

threw me

It's contagious

I thought it was supposed to be "Enter Knees in"
lol

or enter knee sin.

Jamie: saw "through" and thought you were playing with us! Homonyms. (Is that the right word?)

It did add a little twist to the intended meaning.

Kate O' Burn and Bob Novak???

jesus.....CLICK

Hang in there. It's almost time for reliable sources. Any chance they might actually mention the one sided coverage of the election, or will they continue the slobbering adoration of Obama?

Jamie and all:

Have fun on C List today. With that comment, I am off.

Did not read last night's thread, because it appeared to be an acid bath.

Bush's approval rating is 24% and over 70%of Americans think the country is on the wrong track.

Why is McCain still competitive with any Democrat?

dog, because the dems in Florida and Michigan will feel disenfranchised and angry that their states were "punished" by a political party. I understand Florida has had 1/2 punishment... but the view will be from the common person "the dems don't like us, so fck them". People are very chauvinistic when it comes to their home state and their country.

It's my theory and I am sticking with it.

KGC
Because all those Independents out their "vote for the man" without ever getting it through their pointy little heads, that with the man comes all the party hacks>

Jack

I am off to a Belgian "Waffle-bak" at my ex's... It is in celebration of his mother... cheers...

I knew it.......Euro Tom is a WAFFLER

George Carlin on "Voting"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u6lCBnRoHQ&eurl=http://www.crooksandliars.com/

Warning: Contains Carlinesque language.....ie, seven dirty words and then some........

Jack

It will be interesting to see how the independent vote
shakes out in the fall. I guess these are all the folks who still voted for Bush in 2004 and can still be convinced the war in eyerack was a good idea they just needed a better manager.

Aren't we supposed to be hearing from General Petraeus next month or has that been cancelled along with the troop withdrawals.

No, He Can't Because Yes, They Will

"Obama’s mantra, “Yes, We Can” is inspiring and heartwarming, but in the end is an empty phrase that will founder once the Republican political attack machine spins up. I realize that most Obamatons are so wedded to his vision of hope that any effort to point out the cracks in the foundation of the new Democratic Savior are met with fury and disdain.

But, unlike the attacks on Dukakis, Cleland, and Kerry, the ammunition that Obama has provided to his political foes is significant and deadly. But try telling that to Obama disciples. You get name calling and character assassination (just read the reaction to this piece). At the same time, Obama is treated with a reverence and fawning that I have never seen in my life for a political figure."

http://www.taylormarsh.com/

Timing of elections in Florida is really important because many registered voters are snow birds. They generally head north around Easter and return just before election day in November.

These people are very active politically with the hot-button issues being healthcare, taxes, social security, and, in some regions the environment. In most case they are not altruistic.

Any effort by anyone to redo an election to a time frame when they are out of state and ill-informed and unable to readily obtain absentee ballots will turn out quite badly for the fools who would do such scheduling.

I'd like to see some kind of validation of the actual number of floridians who head north around easter and return around November.......

Patsi

Let's not forget this famous sexist code phrase:

"hollering at Republicans"

Max

You have a very convincing argument.

"I said all he has to do is dance. I guess I shouldn't expect you to spend much time exploring foreign policy. It is such an unimportant topic"

Max - I'll admit it - I'm much more concerned with domestic issues which I believe Hillary is far more suited to address than BO.

I'm glad you bring all of this up though - has me digging a little and educating myself more fully on these issues. Thanks for bringing up other issues besides Iraq regarding foreign policy.

It's also interesting how some of the more vocal Obama supporters are at a loss for words in the face of the real foreign policy challenges you bring up. I am interested in seeing a substantial discussion regarding some of these issues between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters that know more about foreign policy (like yourself) than I do.

As always - thanks for you insight.

Sturgeone, you might be able to find it in the census data. I don't feel like sifting through it.

Here is my impression developed over the 15-years we spent in Florida:

--In the affluent coastal areas as many as 75-pct of the still-mobile retirees head north. Most of the old-old folks stay the year around. They, too, are very active politically.

--In the less affluent areas, many less people head north-perhaps as few as 20-pct of the still mobile retirees.

--The mobile folks don't necessarily go to their previous northern homes--they may head for the mountains or do the traveling they deferred while they were wage earners.

We moved out of Florida ten years ago when it simply became too crowded. But, I still keep track of things down there.

I thought this discussion was supposed to be about Congress

Patsi wrote:

"when anyone comes back, you go into self-righteous nun mode, slap people on the hand then cry for civility. That's the pattern."

I've noticed this too.

Snowbirds and “sunbirds” cause big shifts in Florida’s older population
Filed under Research, Florida, Aging on Monday, December 11, 2006.GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Florida’s elderly population fluctuates by nearly 20 percent over the course of a year with the winter arrival of “snowbirds” embracing warmer weather and the summer departure of “sunbirds” escaping to cooler climes, a new University of Florida study finds.
http://news.ufl.edu/2006/12/11/snowbirds-3/

At the peak of the 2005 winter season, an estimated 818,000 snowbirds traveled from their home states or abroad to spend at least a month in Florida, while in July about 313,000 elderly Floridians left their residences to spend at least 30 consecutive days somewhere else, said Stan Smith, director of UF’s Bureau of Economic and Business Research.

Thank you, Katherine..........appreciate it large sizes.

"It's my theory and I am sticking with it."

ET - your theory is very good. I'm with you 100% on this - Florida will go red if the democratic party does not make nice. And with Obama's big mouth...even if he is somehow waaaayyyyy out ahead by convention time and they seat those delegates FL/MI will probably still go tell him to F off.

Wendy!: I've not read the thread since about 6 p last night. WRT quoting Patsi on the nun comment: when did that exchange take place?

PS to C Listers: if you quote something that's a bit removed from immediate thread, it would be so helpful if you would add the time it was posted (approximate or guesstimate will do).

Thanks much.
dog, the lurker

KGC

I'm fighting a cold and it is %#&**## snowing again so Im not very optimistic.

I expect the election to follow the basic pattern of previous elections.
People are basically, conservative( with a small c) and creatures of habit.

Look for my state ,Missouri, to be a swing state. the rural parts of the state will go Republican, the urban areas will go Democratic. That leaves the suburbs to decide.
They seem to like McCain in the suburbs. I'm not sure what issues will gain traction.
Iraq? Their children are all in college they don't know anybody in the war.
The economy? They are all doing OK, this down turn has hit the working class construction worker and factory worker.
Health care? It is company paid for "best in the world".

So, the "better managed war" may play well If combined with the full frontal negative assault that a desperate Republican will launch.
The Rep. have nothing to lose by going negative and it has often worked for them.

Jack

I can remember when I was a little kid learning to read I would see "%@"#!" or somesuch in the funny papers and it threw me for the longest time before I found out what it was and represented......

That's it I'm voting for George Carlin!

dogs eye -- That exchange was between Sheila and myself. She threw out a punch and I responded.

Hey Dog - yea sorry - it occurred to me late most of what I said was only relevant to a conversation that happened hours before I joined in and those folks were probably asleep now or not around.

LOL

All of you might find this interesting if only to see what Hillary will be up against. There is a lady whose site I visit reguarly because she is a magnificent writer. She is an Obama supporter as well and will be in full support mode for the stae of Ohio as well as emails, petitions, and calls in Wisconsin. Add to that her circle of friends and it looks formidable to anyone such as myself supporting Hillary.

http://watergatesummer.blogspot.com/

Good Morning!!

I certainly hope that Craig enjoyed a wonderful evening out with Ms. Thomas!!

Wow, what I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall, during their dinner conversation!!

Actually, sitting at the table, with them, would be very cool, too!!! 8D

I am in Ohio. So far I have only received one thing for Obama, an invite to the opening of his downtown office. (Cleveland). I am not saying his isn't here, just saying, in contrast I have seen in person both Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton.

Top of the day peeps. Patsi I'm still waiting for you to regale us with your tales of the Harding Administration.

For President's Weekend, another great Lincoln quote:

"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose TO SAY he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure."

Ah, I'm watching the morning news and the new Clinton lie is conflating the Super Delegate issue with the Florida and Michigan delegate issue.

They just never learn. The populous is informed and energized, and yet they still want to play the "we come out on Sunday morning and repeat this lie long enough, people will believe it" game. Talk about the Clintons sounding like the Bushes (during the run up to the Iraq war).

No shame.

Jack
Sorry to hear about your cold...but it sounds like a good excuse for a hot toddy.

Unlikely_burrito
How were the events?

Obama: Let's not seat the Florida delegation because that would be changing the rules

Obama: Let's change the rules on the Superdelegates because every vote should count.

I think the campaign that full of baloney is the Obama campaign. The rules only count if they work for Obama.

I guess if Senator Clinton sweeps the last few primaries -Obama will change his mind again.

oh yeah and let's not forget In September Obama was all for seating the Florida delegation.

Obama is like John Kerry a big flipflopper

For seating the Florida delegation before being against it.
For the super delegates before being against it.

Against the war but voting for it.

the superdelegates were created to vote their conscience......so I've heard......

Charles Barkeley just flayed out the republicans...all of them especially what he calls "fake christians" I think there is a cut of his conversation with Wolf Blitzer at
www.crooksandliars.com
He supports Obama but will without a doubt vote Democrat this year.
He's also running for governor of alabama in 2014....was a real pleasure to hear him talk.

It's killing you KC aint it?

Tell me where there's a hard, fast rule for Super Delegates?

Ah KGC,

There you go with your illogical logic. Let me make it clear:

Super Delegates: No rules to how they can vote. Both candidates offering suggestions.

Florida and Michigan: All delegates agree to. a. Not campaign b. not count delegates. Obama takes name off of Michigan ballot.

Clinton only candidate to break word and decide after the results that she'd changed her mind. Her word means nothing. Now running scared and behind, she needs to create a LIE like saying voters would be disenfranchised if they don't count. Typical and sad.

Hope that's clear for you.

And now for something FUNNY!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/incharacter/2008/02/cookie_monster_comes_to_npr.html

Click on the video.

Sturgeone , I posted that video of Charles Barkley here last night. I think there was too much fighting going on for anybody to watch it.

"The populous is informed and energized"

*chuckle*

You must be talking to a different populous than I am.

Jack

I think in honor of Tuesday's impending victories I'll have a chedda omelette and a side of poi

Brian,

KGC continues to use "old politics" and gets more and more frustrated when it doesn't work. It's like a child with a favorite toy banging it against a chair. "Why won't my thingie work?" they yell while stomping their feet. "I lied before, and now no one believes me".

The results continue to move against them so they become like a cornered rat. That's admirable, but the death throes of a campaign.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4e0qt_fake-christians_news

Here it is again.

Alpha 1906

Obama advertises in Florida against rules.

it all just reminds me of Eugene McCarthy and McGovern.....like history repeating.....Howard Dean, too.....young people and independents, and the left in general out in droves shouting their support to the skies, and all this talk of changing the system and Hope and end the war.....

and then who wins?

Richard Nixon.

Richard Nixon.

and this year it's McCain.......

WhiskyJack,

The African American electorate (thanks to Bill Clinton!!) is voting solidly behind Barack by 8-1 and even 9-1. And have you noticed the numbers of voters in the Dem primaries?

1968 was ruined by Chicago politics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz7DhC5_AvA

Corey.....many thanks....I enjoyed that so much I watched it again........

Sturgeone,

It could remind you of Millard Fillmore and William Henry Harrison, and we wouldn't care, nor be held by some ancient history. We look forward, not backward. We played it "safe" with John Kerry and got shellacked at the polls. No more "But it's my turn" candidates like Hillary.

Jamie,

Then I suggest that the Clintonites unite the party by insisting that Hillary drop out of the campaign for the good of the party.

That's right there are no rules for super delegates and now Obama is trying to make some -
It is Obama that is saying the sd must vote a certain way

Sorry Alpha

People rude enough to push to the head of the line when they haven't earned the right to be there aren't too great either.

And Clinton says they must vote another way. Fine.

Now, did or didn't Clinton agree with the DNC that the Florida and Michigan votes didn't count?

Both events were really good, BC was small by venue. HRC had about 3000 people, with over flow in a cafeteria. It was an energized crowd, who stood for hours in sub-freezing temperatures to see her.

Hillary was great, she interacted with the crowd during her speech, and she was really impressed with the enthusiasm.
She said something to the effect that she'd like to take this crowd with her everywhere.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9674/hil19sbx8.jpg

I was for the super delegates voting their conscience until I found out they weren't voting for Obama.

Now I think they should vote the will of the people except when that doesn't support Obama either.

Only Obama knows the will of the people.

Now, did or didn't Obama agree with the DNC that there would be no advertising in Florida?

sturg said: "the superdelegates were created to vote their conscience......so I've heard......"

you know what, honey? they, and the politicians I help to elect should be voting MY conscience (MY being the electorate) and never mind their own. Remember Terri Schiavo? It wasn't me who sent them back from vacation in droves for a red herring, and they had no business being there. They need to vote the collective conscience of their constituency.

Alpha......you do it your way, I'll do it mine.....no problem.....why would I expect you to care? I dont....I merely tell you that I've seen all this before and it turns out the same way every time.....unless Ross Perot decides to politically whack Bush1 or Nixon screws up so badly that Carter wins........once.

Jamie,

What's the litmus test for leadership? is it internal king making, or is it the vote of the people? I think that's the crux of what gets in the craw of Clintonites on this board. How dare someone take her turn! Really? She finally has a challenger that doesn't crumble (her first Senate race) and is useless (her second Senate campaign). Now she's finding out that maybe she's not the vote of the people.

Coleen .......that would seem to be the horns of the superdelegate dilemma at this point, I guess.....I hope they work it out so that a democrats win in November.....but I certainly wouldnt presume to have the answer.....

I imagine the superdelegates have so many consciences they have to be responsible to that they are quite confused......

think it would be okay to substitute "favors they have to pay back" for : "consciences they have to be responsible to" ??

Im sure that "favors they have to pay back" is solidly embedded in the bedrock of that dilemma.......

McGovern => McObama

I still want to know where to send my application for superdelagatehood . After seeing the amounts of money the two Dems have sent them, I want some too.

yo soy Horsedooty!

"he populous is informed and energized"

energized...yes...informed...I have my doubts.

does bedrock have horns?

Will 1.2 million D voters be disenfranchised? That is the question facing the Democrats and it will be more than just interesting on how they reach a satisfying solution to this problem. If the DNC keeps to their original agreement then those Ds who voted in Michigan and Florida their votes will be meaningless, and this for sure, as of today, would make Barry Obmam the D's nominee. Of course should if HRC's prevail and she is award the votes and the delegates then it will be said the selection was manipulated. According to Senator Schumer, the selection could come down to something called the credentials committee. The credentials committee? Haven't heard this obscured elite group of individuals ever talked about before today. Anyone know anything about who they are, or what they do?

Hey Wendy have any luck playing around on Google?

"Clinton only candidate to break word"

not so fast - Obama was running national cable ads that oops just happened to air in Florida before the primary because they were on a NATIONAL cable channel.

Everyone is playing the same game the same way . . . even your precious Obama.

From the Graham Cracker Lady: "Jack

It will be interesting to see how the independent vote
shakes out in the fall. I guess these are all the folks who still voted for Bush in 2004 and can still be convinced the war in eyerack was a good idea they just needed a better manager."

The independents will vote for McCain or not vote. As they said on television this morning and as I've always said, the best way to unite the Republian party is to have Hilliary Rodham Clinton as the person he runs against.

Nuff said!

Why are BO people getting so upset......isn't their candidate ahead....?

It's not about the people who did show up. It's about the people who DIDN'T show up because they thought the vote didn't count.

If you hold an SAT test and declare that the results won't count, so it's basically a practice, so many students don't turn up (or pay the fee to be eligible like Obama in Michigan) do you then backtrack and say, yeah, they should count because a bunch of people showed up? Uh no.

Good piece by Josh Green in The Atlantic about the discontent inside the Hilliary Rodham Clinton campaign and how they actually see her. Doesn’t seem to be much different than what I have always felt about her. Also, I would say Obama has shown to be a good leader regarding fiscal responsibility and that Hilliary Rodham Clinton has not. A little bigotry coming out as well!

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200802u/patti-solis-doyle

Our first black president has a little racist side to him:
“Bill Clinton’s former advisers, known as the “White Boys,” “

From a Clinton campaign person: “She is piggybacking the only black president the United States has ever known,” the Clinton friend piously lectured to me. “Given African Americans’ prominence in the Democratic Party, people who talk up other candidates don’t understand the impact that her husband will have. He won’t passively sit back in this election. He is going to be an activist and he will get on the phone to black ministers and they will be there for her.” (He had an impact, all right.)” [BTW, that comment from Josh Green…not me]

HRC explaining why they did not get started campaigning sooner: “a Clinton insider admitted to me last spring. “There were two reasons nothing happened. First, by admitting he’s a factor, you’re giving him the credibility that you don’t want him to have. Second, everybody thought he would flame out. They didn’t think he could pull a money team and enough talent together to mount a serious challenge.”

This piece goes on to talk about how the Clinton campaign had gone through more than 30 million dollars to get her re-elected to the Senate and incensing her donor base and only have $10 million left to start running for president, something that has caused her problems lately.

just because people always say something doesnt mean that it's factual.......I know people who always say all kinds of fatuous crap.......besides......people are nuts.

"She finally has a challenger that doesn't crumble (her first Senate race)"

This is a little silly from a supporter of the guy who faced the overwhelming challenge of Alan Keyes.

It's not about her being "owed" the nomination. It's about having "earned" the nomination. This started off with me supporting others that I believed had done more to "earn" the job.

Obama is a media creation whose positions have been virtually the same as Clinton's from the day he entered the senate, at least when he bothered to be there doing the job.

But Jamie Obama has higher number in the popular vote including florida, how can you say he hasn't earned his right to be at the front of line. Come on spin it for me.

" Patsi I'm still waiting for you to regale us with your tales of the Harding Administration. "

Brian....you did see which "Truman" of which I spoke, right?

"The independents will vote for McCain or not vote"
Karolenna (or as Jack suggests is it Karl?)

Wow that is the exact opposite of what Obama claims.
He claims all the independents will vote for him.

I thought the turn-out for the Florida Dem primary was the largest in history?

Jamie - you know you did the David Wilhelm post

I'm LMAO right now

Love it.

BTW - Fry - plan to do some research later today - I'm just checking in before i go up and read about 150 pgs of Joyce Johnson's Minor Characters about the poor Beat women that never get any credit. Sounds like this campaign really. KIDDING!!!

Wendy,

Nope, all candidates buy national commercials. Cheaper that way. That's a BIG difference from holding "fundraisers" in the state that are nothing but campaign events. But regardless, if Clinton had any sort of integrity, she would have kept her word. Instead, she was losing and declared that "We're looking forward to winning in Florida" after getting blasted in SC. That's intent.

Wendy,

"poor beat women"?

Sorry not familiar with who you are referring to.

it's either domestic abuse or the beatniks

Hey Alpha care to post a link ,a quote anything that shows Clinton changed her mind about Florida as opposed to what Obama did.

There was a bigger turnout in Florida than SC and according to the Obama campaign -since they didn't campaign in Florida what happened there has nothing to do with them.

Yes dear, what does that have to do with you sharing your childhood memories of growing during the Harding years?

Jamie,

I'm sure sitting in on state dinners and failing to get a health care program passed in a Democratic Congress may seem like earning it, but I think the voters beg to differ.

come to think of it.......I think the Beats never recovered from having their moniker corrupted by Sputnik into the Beatniks and then the coup de grace Maynard G. Krebs.....they were shamed into seclusion or something......

From David: ""The independents will vote for McCain or not vote"
Karolenna (or as Jack suggests is it Karl?)

Wow that is the exact opposite of what Obama claims.
He claims all the independents will vote for him."

You failed to mention that I said "if" she is the candidate. There is no doubt in my mind that if "he" is the candidate he will get the independents as is the case right now.

She is too polarizing and many, including many men (I know...sexist) will not vote for her. But, she has paved the way herself for some of the criticism she gets.

I thought maybe it was about the female news reporters who go out and do the actually investigating news reporting and then provide it to the nightly talking-heads so they can take credit for the story..

The insert of commercials into different markets can be manipulated to fit any requirement. This idea that because OBAMA's purchase was a "national buy" so it could not be changed is ....pure BS.

Maybe BO thought the uninformed voter would fall for that lame excuse for His advertising in Florida.

So far they have.

Brian,

"Obama has higher number in the popular vote including florida, how can you say he hasn't earned his right to be at the front of line"

My argument wasn't about the voters, it was about qualifications to run in the first place. He may very well get elected, that doesn't mean I have to think he deserves the job.

It wouldn't be the first time an inexperienced, glib, good looking guy was promoted over a competent woman.

but then.....many men obviously will.......vote for her.

Karolenna,

Where have you been all my life?

"Now she's finding out that maybe she's not the vote of the people."

Well with only about 80,000 votes separating them nationally and about 13 states and Puerto Rico still to vote...I'm not sure we know who is the vote of the people.

So far about an even number of the people like BO and even number of people like HRC.

At this point it is about as meaningful for you to say HRC should drop out as it is for me to say BO should drop out. Why don't we let the other 13 states and PR have their say before we decide who has the "vote of the people".

I stick by my post yesterday. Get rid of delegates, get rid of superDs, get rid of the electoral college. Popular vote for everything.

"It wouldn't be the first time an inexperienced, glib, good looking guy was promoted over a competent woman." -Jamie wrote

I wonder if the sexists men out there could ever admit to that.

"You failed to mention that I said "if" she is the candidate. There is no doubt in my mind that if "he" is the candidate he will get the independents as is the case right now."

Except in all the matchups now -they are even and McCain gets independents.

"Karolenna,

Where have you been all my life"

Well, right here, honey. Where have you been? Have a question?

Disaffected Republicans for Obama

lol

NY Times article on super delegates

Old Clinton Ties and Voters’ Sway Tug at Delegates

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/us/politics/17delegates.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1203269881-5xBJxPCUhRkbJK22PFN+QA

So all of you who claim that Obamanation is sensitive to race and now you claim that men are sexist if we don't want Clinton? Nah, we don't want Billary, the same old, tired politics.

Same shit different day...

Why do we even try to have a discussion here. We are ALL entrenched and are going to end up hating each other.

When I read Alpha's posts I burn ! When some people read my posts they burn! when people read Brian's posts, they ALL burn... Sorry Brian, just kidding.

But speaking of kidding... this is the worse split I have seen with the Dems the whole time I paid attention, except for Teddy's shenanigans in 1980. I was just old enough to vote in that election.. PROUDLY for Jimmy Carter.

So I don't know, but all this change stuff is really b.s. BIG OLE B.S. A cult of personality cannot, in and of him or herself change the power dynamic that creates the disenfranchisement in this country.

I posted my thoughts at | February 17, 2008 7:27 AM . If anyone has any further thoughts, please share. Try to critique the message and not the messenger. Cheers.

alpha, sorry, but out of your mouth comes the same old tired arguments.

Hey isn't time for the first Gay President? Oh strike that, we already had Marty Van Buren !!

"how can you say he hasn't earned his right to be at the front of line"

Brian read my 12:43 post - can you wait a few weeks and let the rest of the country vote. Just because you've had your say doesn't mean other people can't have their say.

Sorry Jamie I didn't realize this election was about righting the wrongs of your life. I thought it was about picking the best the person to be president. Maybe it's time you started thinking about something else other than your own agenda and start thinking about what's best for the country, the entire country. Jamie it's really not a good idea to look to someone else to validate your own life experiences.

"Florida and Michigan: All delegates agree to. a. Not campaign b. not count delegates. Obama takes name off of Michigan ballot."
Posted by: alpha1906 | February 17, 2008 11:52 AM

"Now, did or didn't Clinton agree with the DNC that the Florida and Michigan votes didn't count?"
Posted by: alpha1906 | February 17, 2008 12:06 PM

Point of clarity--I believe it will be the party's credentials committee who will decide whether to seat the state
delegations.

To the best of recollection, none of the candidates agreed that the votes of Florida and/or Michigan would or would not count. It may be more accurate to state that each of the candidates are attempting to influence the credentials committee's decision to reach an outcome more advantageous to each candidate's best interest, since the makeup of the credentials committee will in all likelihood determine the outcome. (ie. which candidate controls more of the committee members)

alpha - there you go again with your spin.

All of the dems held fundraisers in Florida including Obama

He ran ads in Florida

Please don't try to act like he's better than the rest he is more of the same with a lot of empty words empty words empty words

This explains totally why I am behind Obama and will "roll the dice".

Bridging Divides and Changing the Dynamics of Politics: Obama

"In amassing a large coalition of young and old, black and white Democrats, independents and some Republicans, Obama offers the possibility that America can finally get beyond its partisan stalemates. If that happened, a united nation would be better equipped to move forward on everything from the economy to the scourge of Islamic terror.

I say that because our polarization has become so acute that it is our most pressing problem. Solving it could open the door to other solutions. As it is, we are unable to muster a consensus on the time of day. The only thing that moved through Congress lately with bipartisan backing was the economic stimulus package. No surprise there — all politicians love to give away money."

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2008/02/17/2008-02-17_hillary_clinton_and_neocons_use_the_same.html

Fry