Craig Crawford's Trail Mix

My family does not talk about politics very much. We were eating dinner last night and they phone rang. It was an automated message. They wanted to take a political survey. My Mom hung up on it. I told her to get used to getting a lot of politically-oriented phonecalls over the next year with the election coming. She then said "I don't want Hillary to be our next President. She hasn't been in charge of anything before. Well , at least that's what all the other candidates say." I know my Mom doesn't really believe that , but it just goes to show what kind of an effect the negative comments about candidates has on the public opinion. I'm not really sure why my Mom doesn't like Hillary. I would guess to say that maybe Hillary doesn't seem sincere enough for my Mom , if that makes any sense.

Many thanks to Mad Mustard for setting forth some fine guidelines for our blog home:

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2007/12/clintons-war-footing-still-sur.html#comment-7770

Patsi: would be great if you'd repost your interesting comment on framing so we can discuss it further.

But need to run some errands now. Ciao.

dog....I'll repost...and fix some of those typos!

Craig you beat me to it- Mad's comments were great ideas to follow-

On another note, Hillary got the endorsement of our local paper-
http://www.sentinelsource.com/main.asp?SectionID=43&SubSectionID=105&ArticleID=173760

Kathy, thanks for keeping us posted on all things New Hampshire. What do you think of new poll showing Clinton and Obama now tied (and Edwards on the move)? If things are getting that tight, seems to me that Iowa is going to be more influential than ever on the New Hampshire vote.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/polltracker/2007/12/obama-clinton-tied-in-new-hamp.html

Corey,
My mother-in-law really likes Hillary. I haven't discussed it with her yet (maybe over Christmas dinner!), but I suspect it's because she, like Hillary, married a man who could really let his dickflag fly at times...

Julia,

Any woman who has loved and dealt with an "irresitable" man for an extended period while holding her position in space with humor and strength (as opposed to being a doormat) would like HIllary. The fight is often worth the effort and if you hang in there, the gentleman (?) in question can turn out to be your very best friend.

I have 18 family members coming for Christmas Dinner. Since we regularly talk politics, without fighting, I am going to attempt Bowmanc's Straw Poll. It should be.interesting.

Early polling of NH residents

Obama 1
Biden 1
Edwards 2
Undecided 2

Julia: "married a man who could really let his dickflag fly at times..."

God, that's a funny line!

And Jamie -- absolutely agree. I think it works when there is a tremendous amount of respect for brains, ambition etc on both parts.

Jamie,
"Any woman who has loved and dealt with an "irresitable" man for an extended period while holding her position in space with humor and strength (as opposed to being a doormat) would like HIllary."

No argument there (though I've known women who kicked him to the curb, much to the applause of her girlfriends).

But that doesn't make Hillary qualified to be president. Nor does that disqualify her. I just don't see it's relevancy.

In other news, Rudy's "flu like symptoms" sound to me like he had a serious hangover. Which would be completely understandable given his recent poll numbers.

Nearly every woman I know would happily vote for Hillary. I do know a few woman who hate her....but they wouldn't vote for a democrat anyway. But the most support I've seen is from waitresses. When I wear my Hillary t-shirt, a waitress, whether mine or not, will very often stop by and say something akin to "You go girl."

But I fear that many of them don't vote. Several that I asked said they'd been solidly for Kerry....but the worked all day, had to pick up their kids from day care or school after work and were just too tired. They almost all said they didn't even know about Tennessee's early voting.

About board contention....it's simply a reflection of the culture we live in. Someone, I believe Tom Brokow, was talking about this several months ago. He said that the media was guilty of encouraging a culture of conflict. Just look at the political shows filled with snide or misleading comments and often outright lies that seldom get questioned (as mentioned on Abrams' show) ....or even other events -- when something happens and the first thing to is to assign blame.

This is the God's truth....I have a friend in Oklahoma who was told by her doctor to stop watching Chris Matthews because of her blood pressure. (Her home health nurse had previously said the same about Orin Hatch...ha!)

well.... my mom and dad and Rick's mom and dad are all saying that it's time for a woman president and all 4 of them have told me they will be voting for Hillary in the NH primary.....

Patsi..... very interesting post about framing of language...... and yes.... the media is definitely guilty of encouraging a culture of conflict..... they think it gives them ratings and sells newspapers and magazines..... unfortunately, they are probably right......

Mad.... when I heard Bush mention switch grass in his press conference yesterday, I burst out laughing thinking of your blog with the horse.....

eprof...... so glad to hear from you.... I miss your thoughtful posts very much.....

Renee, you don't mean the SUV (Switchgrass Utility Vehicle) do you?

http://www.madmustard.com/images/2006/02/Switchgrass%20Utility%20Vehicle-MadMustard.jpg

hey julia, i just released a recent comment of yours from the spam bin and wanted to repeat for everyone that our filter holds any comments with 3 or more links as possible spam. and i don't always get to the spam bin every day to free up the good guys.

Mad.....
yup..... that's the one..... LOL!

thanks for the repost.....

Dog asked me to repost this, so here's the thoughts...

I was very critical of Hillary for many years. Primarily for botched health care, and for not being --in my terms -- not a strong enough feminist. I was pissed that she buckled on changing her hair, dropping her glasses and not speaking out stronger.

But one day I was going back over some papers from my grad school days in history....my primary area of European history was the Holocaust and the Nazi propaganda machine. I had started out in Ancient History, but after being married and living in Germany, and a trip to Dachau, I returned to try and make sense of what the hell had happened to humanity.

After re-reading so much of my old notes, etc., I began evaluating how and why I had been so critical of Hillary Clinton. And I had to face up to what the Lakoff book calls language framing. Years earlier I had done a great deal of reading on how language alterations and slants had shaped German thought....I also knew all the codes used against women when I was a feminist editor.

It was all there. America didn't want a feminist in the White House. Not one who looked like a feminist or -- God forbid, a '60s long hair with black framed glasses. Betty Ford was able to get away with a lot of her views because of her overall demeanor.

To my intellectual chagrin, I knew I had been systematically suckered. And while I probably don't want to have a beer with Hillary, I know what that mindset got us in a presidential election.

And here's my take on that "apology" question about the so-called war vote, which was in fact NOT a "war vote." I think Hillary could and maybe should have said the only thing she'd apologize for was not recognizing that George Bush couldn't be trusted with power.

Furthermore, I am so damn sick of this "apology" culture that I could puke. My father always said people apologized too much....His reasoning -- "Don't insult or hurt anyone unless you mean it."

Craig- Absolutely Iowa is going to be even more important due to the 5 day difference- that is going to be an absolutely crazy time with a debate and the dem 100 dinner-
The in thing to say is that Iowa will decide the dem front runner and NH the republican- but I am not sure about that. I think that deals with many wanting to discount Huckabee.

The USAToday poll was not surprising - I see many breaking towards Obama, and Edwards and Richardson- and I do not know people breaking for Hillary. As Renee referred to, many of the Hillary supporters I personally know are older women. I know few -ok one- guy in his 40s voting for Hillary.

Also about the poll- I got to speak with Sisan Page this week at the Edwards event and was quoted in her article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-20-NHmood_N.htm

Last comment- when I hear analysts stating that Hillary wants to take out Obama and would rather have Edwards win in Iowa, I think be careful what you wish for-

thanks Kathy, totall agree with your "careful what you wish for" comment on Hillary wanting Edwards to win Iowa

any accountants on board? check out this NYT item which appears to exonerate Rudy's accounting practices on trips to Hamptons. but i am having trouble understanding it:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/12/20/us/politics/20071221_GIULIANI_GRAPHIC.html

Patsi,
"To my intellectual chagrin, I knew I had been systematically suckered"

This is a courageous statement to make. Could you give us more details? More details on "language framing?" And how do you think others might be systematically suckered. And finally, what safeguards do you use to ensure you're still not being snookered?

Thanks.

Kathy, Craig,
Call me naive (just don't call me late for supper), but it's not clear to me how Iowa influences NH, other than those that do well in Iowa should get a boost in contributions to help their campaigns in NH. I always thought the voters in NH were of the "I'll make up my own damn mind, thank you" mind set.

I'm obviously missing something here.

Kathy -- I'd be very interested as to where these analysts got their information. I hear so much speculation that is -- uh -- speculative.

On the other hand, I do think this race is tightening on an hourly basis. And while I support Hillary, I think that's healthy. Any one of these top three (I still love Bill Richardson but doubt he can pull this off) is going to face a right wing hate machine like we've never seen before. (I've been receiving the Obama/Osama emails from right wingers that I know ever since he was elected to the Senate. Of course, now we are told it's all Bob Kerry's fault.) I'm a little suspicious of the lack of scruitiny Obama has received. If Hillary had dissed an entire generation the way he did, well, I think I could guess what the "pundits" would have been doing for weeks after.....

At any rate, the Republican establishment knows they have to hold the White House this time. They need another right wing judge, and they need these repressive programs continued until people are so used to them that a generation won't know it was ever any different.

"But that doesn't make Hillary qualified to be president. Nor does that disqualify her. I just don't see it's relevancy. "

dnd,

It has to do with brains, humor, achievements, and talent that has been dedicated to the success of someone else while knowing your own worth. Hillary's core support is women of a certain age who knew that there were times they could have danced circles around some boss, husband whomever and because the world just didn't wag that way at the time, they did their dance in the light of reflected glory.

The times changed and the path to leadership has become much more wide open. Her husband is retired, her child is grown and she has spent the last six years being a darn good Senator. We look at her and know that there is an excellent chance she has the capacity to be twice the President her husband was.

Patsi- you reference to judges reminds me. At the Edwards event, Elizabeth said that she was doing fine healthwise, and while she appreciates the concerns, people should instead pray for the continued good health of Justice Stevens.

Okay, Watching Hardball because of Craig. He opens with "If the Truth Hurts". For a few minutes I thought he was going to read his email. :-)

dnd....
I think what Craig and Kathy (Hi Kath!) are referring to is that in 2004 Dean was ahead in the Democratic NH primary according to the polls...... then he came in third in Iowa and Kerry won....

but it was always close here before the Iowa caucus because Kerry was the "son next door"..... here in southern NH, most of our news comes from the Boston stations and most of the population lives down here also.....

since name recognition is such a huge factor..... this state has always supported any Massachusetts person who has run for president..... it gave Tsongas a victory in 92..... it is why Romney is ahead here for Republicans, IMO....

Kerry's Iowa caucus victory did tip the scales here for him.....

but I've heard a lot of people who will vote Democratic saying they will not let Iowa affect them this time around...... we will just have to wait and see if that is true or not.....

Dnd-
Iowa boosts NH because whoever wins will absolutely dominate the news coverage nonstop-whoever comes in 3rd will have a hard time pulling up- in NH last time around, we saw the Dean scream in the week following Iowa- over and over- Dean collapsed and came in 2nd, though many believe that if there had been another week or two Dean would have rebounded(he had been coming back up).

It is not a secret that the Clinton campaign were hoping for a longer interval between Iowa and NH-

Though you will hear many reporters reference Live Free of Die and the granite state independence, the reality is, two thirds of the dems are still undecided, - and those last few days will make all the difference. Many want to back the winner- and mant more want to beack the person they think can win. So people will be looking to the top finishers.

I know of many people passionate for Kucinich, Biden, and Dodd who will support them still, but more who will not vote for them as they believe their vote will be wasted.

Dnd-
Iowa boosts NH because whoever wins will absolutely dominate the news coverage nonstop-whoever comes in 3rd will have a hard time pulling up- in NH last time around, we saw the Dean scream in the week following Iowa- over and over- Dean collapsed and came in 2nd, though many believe that if there had been another week or two Dean would have rebounded(he had been coming back up).

It is not a secret that the Clinton campaign were hoping for a longer interval between Iowa and NH-

Though you will hear many reporters reference Live Free of Die and the granite state independence, the reality is, two thirds of the dems are still undecided, - and those last few days will make all the difference. Many want to back the winner- and many more want to back the person they think can win. So people will be looking to the top finishers.

I know of many people passionate for Kucinich, Biden, and Dodd who will support them still, but more who will not vote for them as they believe their vote will be wasted.

Jamie,
Thanks for that perspective. It helps me understand the thinking of a lot of people I know who support Hillary.

Kathy,
"people should instead pray for the continued good health of Justice Stevens."

Just one more reason I want Elizabeth Edwards to be our next president.

"I know of many people passionate for Kucinich, Biden, and Dodd who will support them still, but more who will not vote for them as they believe their vote will be wasted."

Just one more reason we should have instant runoff voting.

Kathy: "At the Edwards event, Elizabeth said that she was doing fine healthwise, and while she appreciates the concerns, people should instead pray for the continued good health of Justice Stevens."

Elizabeth Edwards is Queen of the World. Love her.

Well looks like I was right about then entire chauffeuring Judith issue.

wow....
that was a great segment on Hardball...... for once.... Matthews let his guests answer his questions instead of talking over them.....

Craig.... the tie with the dots at the top..... you looked great..... and it was nice to see you have a chance to actually articulate your thoughts ......

Yes, Brian I think you must have been -- although I still can't quite get my mind around what was done. Were the bills sent to different departments?

I have to admit that part of my dislike of Rudy comes from a slew of NYC friends who hate him. They all say, "Yes, he cleaned up Times Square...BUT--" I actually think Brian was the first New Yorker I've "known" who liked him. Some friends close to ground zero, as a matter of fact, were furious with him. (Having said that, may I say that at times he cracks me up. But then I got a kick out of Fred Thompson bitchslapping Fox News right to its face....maybe I am too easily amused.)

Also -- saw Craig on Matthews' show and have to say that one of the reasons I bought Craig's first book and enjoy his appearances on a variety of shows is that he has no apparent agenda.

My point Patsi is there was no issue here to begin with. So what if he gave his mistress a car and driver. I'm not saying it was right, but people were making out that this was an example of how corrupt Rudy is/was. He may be a lot of things I don't like, he's not corrupt. NYC has an annul budget of 59 billions dollars, a few thousand spent to drive Judith around does not a scandal make.

Patsi I don't like him, liking him has nothing to do with whether I think the attack was fair or not.

And to more important stuff: Everybody have a safe and wonderful holiday season. I'll stay in Nashville...both of my kids will be home as well as my fabulous granddaughter. My son loves to cook so I'll let him do it! My son-in-law loves to chop wood, and do other house-type chores, and so I let him do that. My daughter is bringing the the grandbaby AND our favorite Christmas CD -- by Leon Redbone.

I SO wish I had a blog or something to show you all my gorgeous little Maria Irina!

I missed Craig on Hardball. Mad, I'm counting on you for the video.

Here's my nomination for the official theme song for Craigslist:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rhXiee1Q88A

Patsi,
Leon Redbone has a Christmas CD? I've gotta find that.
Hope you have a wonderful time with your family.

For those who missed the link the first time I posted him, Lord Likely is in rare and wonderful form for the holidays

http://lordlikely.co.uk/

"I bought Craig's first book and enjoy his appearances on a variety of shows is that he has no apparent agenda.'

Patsi, This is exactly why he insists on not voting. It may seem like a civic duty, but for Craig it is the way of attempting as much as anyone can to be an honest broker believed by all sides.

Jamie -- the first time I heard Craig say he didn't vote (on Imus) I was sort of taken aback....but in really thinking about it, I understood.

Thanks for the tip, Craig. (I'm a bit slow with these technical thingies sometimes.)

Jamie & Patsi.
Well, Bill's dickflag, at least as far as I know, is a lot less...er...impressive (forgive the pun)...than my late father-in-law's was. We're talking Jerry Springer Show caliber stuff where he was concerned. Seriously. I don't know how my mother-in-law dealt with him, but she did. I'm definitely going to discuss the Hillary business with her when she's at my house for Christmas.

Jamie I have to take exception to what you said about Hillary in your 4:54 post. It seems to me that you are trying to paint the choices Hillary has made in her personal life as being some sort of noble sacrifice. It doesn't strike me that way at all, it strikes me as someone who sold out for the sake of ambition. And it's for that reason that so many women of her own generation don't like her. They made the hard choices and achieved their goal without staying in a marriage that so often seemed to provide cause for public humiliation. It's hard to reconcile the Hillary and Bill of 16 years ago on 60 Minutes and the Clintons we know today.

The other thing that I take exception to is this sentiment you seem to be expressing that within the Clinton's marriage there a sense of it now being "her turn". Well that's fine when your talking about a normal career, but this is about running the free world.

Julia,

I will be interested in what she has to say. My eight year sentence was with an (er) impressive flag flyer, but I actually loved his brain even more. :-) So that may be Billy Boy's (er) biggest attraction.

"I have to take exception to what you said about Hillary in your 4:54 post. It seems to me that you are trying to paint the choices Hillary has made in her personal life as being some sort of noble sacrifice"

You are reading the post wrong. Go back and try again.

Brian, I don't think you understand much about women. My ex was also a flagwaver. But that's not why I left him. I left him because he and I had no shared ambitions or passions (and I don't mean in the physical sense, we always had a good sexual relationship...as he did with several others) but primarily, I thought he was a crappy father. He certainly wasn't abusive, and we ended up friends. But he had a negative personality and had a critical attitude that he started to throw off on our kids.

As near as I can tell, Bill Clinton is a great father and they had shared ambitions and passions.

On the other hand, in fairness, I must say that my ex told me that the first time he thought of divorcing me was eight years earlier, in 1972 when I cleared out our grad school savings account and gave it to the George McGovern campaign. It was about $188. He was a Viet vet, and against the war. But not for $188.

Everyone is certainly entitled to his/her opinion about Hillary and what they think about her marriage. She is very ambitious and maybe she did stick with Bill because of her ambition. However, none of us knows for sure, we don't know what's in her heart. Perhaps she is just a very forgiving person who doesn't believe in divorce?

Patsi I understand human nature, and what I see is a woman (and Bill too) who puts ambition above all else. It has a lot to do with the type of people who surround them, i.e Harrold Wolfson, Mark Penn, Dick Morris. I'm not sure thats the best quality for a president of the united states.

Brian,
I think you missed the point of Jamie's 4:54 post. As I read it, the empathy many woman feel for Hillary is transcendent.

:) @ Julia, sure why not!

I get that dnd, but it's also the reason so many of her own generation, the ones who were out there fighting the good fight don't like her. They feel (and frankly I do too) that she's a sell out.

Ahhh, but the $64,000.00 question still remains: why is Hillary's ambition held up to such scrutiny? No one is questioning the ambitions of any of the other candidates, and seeing as how Hill's the only chica up there, it does make one wonder if that's the reason she's singled out.

Because Julia it seems Hillary has paid a higher price to satisfy her ambition, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. When push comes to shove I'm not sure which would win out, Hillary's ambition or what's in the nation's best interest.

Brian,
I think you are right about the Clinton's selling their soul for their ambitions. It's pretty transparent.

Unlike Patsi, most of the women I know here in the west don't care for her. I don't want to diss those who like Clinton. I respect their opinion. But my mom has the best bullshit detector of anyone I've ever known, and she don't like Hillary.

Having said all that, could we take one day a week to discuss the non-celebrity candidates?

I don't think one day is enough, pick two!

dnd and dog: you both asked me to talk more about framing. Just examine the difference beween what is being said about Hillary Clinton and the male candidates. If, for example, she had left Bill, then she was a woman who had no forgiveness. But she stayed and so she is scheming, ie devious.

More about words: listen to how her campaign is "framed" -- they have schemes and agendas....Edwards and Obama do not.

Julia,
"No one is questioning the ambitions of any of the other candidates"

With all due respect, two words:
Rudy Giuliani

"If, for example, she had left Bill, then she was a woman who had no forgiveness."

Not sure I can buy that line Patsi.

I understand what you mean, Brian.

Touche, DND. But not to the extent that they are with Hillary.

Thanks Patsi, that's interesting to think about. I know you like Hillary, but from an a purely objective standpoint, could you characterize some of what the Hillary campaign has "framed?" I'm just curious as I want to understand it better and getting it from contrasting points helps point out the salient issues.

Recently , Craig mentioned on TV that the war was fading in importance as an election factor.
Last thread Craig wrote that HRC may start boasting of her war vote. I hope that was a tongue-in-cheek statement.
We don't need any Democrat bragging how she was all for this wonderful war all along, even if that is the truth about so many of them.

Fading public consciousness of a war indicates public weariness. Burns pointed out how that towards the end of WWII the American public was just about spiritually worn out , as the country was broke and totally war-weary.

But the deaths slow down, temporarily, and MSM reports people are shoving the war to the back of their concerns list.
Soldiers die, little focus is on that.

More than likely no one here has ever heard the question,
"What happened at Firebase Maryann?"
What happened was the worst battle defeat of US troops in the whole of the Viet Nam War.
In the dead of night, US soldiers were literally slaughtered in great numbers. The reason I didn't forget it is because I received orders to report to the rifle brigade that was there that night, but no transportation came to take me up there and I ended up re-assigned to another outfit. I can't stop remembering . My point is that this happened way after Tet, 1968...three years after that, as a matter of fact. Even US anti-war demonstrations had started to shrink, and people were just sort of resigned that the damn war would just go on forever.
Then , FINALLY, in 1975, Congress pulled the plug. Then , shortly after, no Democrats or Republicans went on record saying "we should have kept funding that war..blah blah, blah.."
Finally, Congress shut off the dollar supply and US involvement ceased.
This week Congress gave Bush about half of what he wanted to squander in Iraq. Gates lamented that fact...should have been more, he said.

The really sad part is that, just as only a few veterans remember what happened at Firebase Maryann thirty six years ago, only a few people will recall the names and reasons the last Americans in battle in Iraq will have died.

I am a Democrat. Just because of that, I don;t have t support nonsensical votes by Democrats to fund this horrible war in Iraq.

Iraq must remain #1 in our fully-tuned-in consciousnesses until , finally, Congess finds a way to STOP FUNDING THIS WAR.

"Perhaps she is just a very forgiving person who doesn't believe in divorce?"

By George, I think she's got it. Why can't she just love her husband with all of his faults, love her daughter, love her parents, and have strong feelings about what families need in the modern world plus having the brains and talent to try to bring all those things to fruition.

This whole business of ascribing nefarious attitudes says more about the people accusing her of it than it says about her.

And in regard to Iraq it's easy for me to envision Hillary doing exactly with this war what Nixon did with Vietnam, end it when it suits her best.

It's one thing to love your husband and another to endure repeated public humiliations as his hands. Healthy well balanced people get the hell out such situations whether they love the person or not.

"Healthy well balanced people get the hell out such situations whether they love the person or not."

Not necessarily, Brian. I know a few of them.

Evening all. Have to catch up on your posts.

Anybody up for a chat chez Brian later this evening, if Brian is up to hosting chez Brian?

In meantime, here is a GQ article on Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo -- well worth a read:

http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_6203

And an article from their January issue -- I've not yet read it -- on Hillary haters: might play into your discussion:

http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_6249

Patsi & dnd -- Leon Redbone's holiday CD is warm and wonderful, particularly That Old Christmas Moon.

re. Chris Matthews' protest about unfair treatment for Rudy, it's not so much whether Rudy charged his own department or another city department, it's the fact that he wasted taxpayer money on his mistress.

re. Rudy, also, this New Yorker -- who worked in the World Trade Center, incidentally -- abhors the way he has lined his pockets and enlarged his already swollen ego with his lies about his heroism. He was reprehensible before and after 9/11, and the fact that he attended quite a few funerals and made regular TV appearances during the first few days (when Mr. Bush was hiding who knows where) does nothing to burnish his image in my mind.

not tonight dog, but I can do chat tomorrow night if people want.

"Healthy well balanced people get the hell out such situations whether they love the person or not. "

Bzzzzt Wrong again. There are lots of reasons for staying in a relationship that actually have nothing to do with love.

You are the one talking about "public humiliation". It may very well be that she settled that one in private and anything said by anyone outside of the relationship has absolutely no bearing whatsoever, and it has nothing to do with politics.

dog,
Why hasn't Bill Richardson been on the cover of GQ? ;-)

Obviously she's been setting that one her entire married life. Anyway it's what I see as an issue of personal integrity. And you and I will never agree on it Jamie, that's what makes horse races.

Jamie,
"There are lots of reasons for staying in a relationship that actually have nothing to do with love."

Like say, oh, I dunno, blind ambition and lust for power?

dog,

That Hillary article is very good. The main point being that the "haters" are seeing their own agenda and attitudes whatever they might be rather than who she is or what she does.

"Like say, oh, I dunno, blind ambition and lust for power?"

Like oh, friendship, respect, time in a relationship you don't want to replace, commitment to a shared child, financial and business goals. All marriages are comprised of good stuff and bad stuff. People who value those commitments weigh that good and bad stuff and make adjustments as to whether they stay or go.

Judith Viorst has a great quote in "How I got to be 40 and other atrocities". .. Marriage is what keeps you together so that when you fall out of love, you have time to fall in again.

Maybe she just fell in again.

dnd -- These thoughts pertain only to the current election process....I have already mentioned the word "cackle" which translates to a witches' laugh....and "schemes" as opposed to strategy. And how about the imagery? Look at the photos today, with Hillary and Obama and who was going to "turn mean" -- Obama smiling, Hillary scowling. Come on. The subliminal imagery is as obvious as those decades old images of penises in ice cubes in scotch glasses should have been.

The fact is, I like many things about all the Democratic candidates. But I see the difference in the way they are covered.

I wrote marketing copy for a long time.

Patsi,
No argument with your points. But my question was, objectively how has the Hillary campaign used language framing to their advantage?

dnd in answer to your question look at recent remarks made by both Mark Penn and Bob Kerry. That's how they've done language framing.

If Hillary is so craven because she stayed married.....would she be really cool if she had gotten divorced?

Jamie,
I appreciate your point. But I'm reminded of Rep. Patrica Schroeder (D -CO first district '73-97), who I love dearly. Pissed me off when she teared up when running for president in '88 and was immediately dissed. She coined the term "Teflon president" referring to Reagan being able to get away with anything. Is Hillary the Teflon candidate?

Blog Wars.

Politics is all about arguing . We are diverse here, and we are products of varying degrees of education.
More pointedly, we are commenting from varying degrees of inquisitiveness.
Some of us truly passionate about a certain candidate, some are just above the fray and watching from a catbird's seat.
Some of us get to the streets and work for our faves, more of us get our politics from TV and online -everything.
And some of us know a lot more on the issues than ohters.
Ideally, we can learn from each other.
But, ... personalities interfere, and goodwill evaporates.
I honestly don't know who drove whom off the blog, but I do know that in a huge blogosphere there are many options.
TLR was offended at the way the blog didn't stay more politic-business serious all the time.
Someone posted Sheila quit posting "because she found a new friend..."
C-Bob started posting elsewhere.
Fritz was booted.
Craig went out of his way to welcome Frydaddy and Fry stayed to stir the pot.
Craig also wrote a welcoming post to a Texas man who posted here for a week and then just disappeared.
Colleen comes in here with both guns blazing for short bursts when the Democrats irk her, but she attacks them from the left, and they need it.
Colleen get attacked more than anyone on the left here, mostly because she is so honest. She deserves more respect.
I only know Colleen from her posts here, but I also know we are virtual peas in pod with our political views.
I am rarely attacked here for my left wing viewpoints; you folks generally let me have my say.
Sometimes when I am attacked, I am accused of using repugg talking points,. or "falling into the republican trap.."
Those people I only rarely respond to because if one cannot recognize an attack on a pol from the left, it's beyond me to make that register on their brain.
Many, many times, I read nash's comments and I grind my teeth in comradeship and grunt out "yes!!".
Same with colleen's posts.
I also admire Senor Horsedooty for being a Yellow Dog; my dad was a Yellow Dog, too...but I have strayed and voted left of Democrat platforms in the past.
Brian admires Edwards and thinks we should too. So be it.

9-11 Survivor(sort of) and I have posted back and forth a half dozen or so times about the literary life and I have asked a few questions of him about certain showbiz people and plays, and I sometimes think, as a little boy might, "gee, it must be great to be a New Yorker with all those plays and everything!"

harborwoman has been a great addition to this blog, IMO.

Jamie helped me start up my blog and has educated me a bit more about old California, and rebel ren and I joke about baseball in the summer.

I post mostly after the blog slows way down, and I am not a part of the "inner circle" or "A Team", but I do read every post every day.

At night TT and I get out the mops and brooms and dump the ashtrays in the CL blog room. Brian comes in with a gallon of B&J ice cream, and harborwoman checks in on us from the west coast.

As much as I love you all, I will not put any one on a pedestal, nor will I hold my breath until one of you comes back, if you decide to leave.

Come in, read, take what you want and discuss what you read here at your local coffee shoppe, and leave us your thoughts.

Just don't listen to, or try to make any sense out of Sturgeone. THAT is impossible!!

Ah, Sturgee, ya knowz I lovez ya!

"Why hasn't Bill Richardson been on the cover of GQ? ;-)"

EXACTLY!

dnd -- if you talked to Pat she would certainly not call Hillary the Teflon candidate!

dnd

"Is Hillary the Teflon candidate?" I actually see her more as the velcro candidate. All of the right, the pundits, the blatherers ascribe all sorts of evil and nefarious plots and machinations to her ... none of which seem to have any real weight or proof other than their opinion.

Dex -- some great comments.....

Dex,
You are not part of the A-Team my friend. You ARE the A-Team!

For anyone who might be interested in Elizabeth KUCINICH, before she falls from the diminishing light of Dennis's campaign:

http://nevadacaucus.blogspot.com/2007/03/my-interview-with-elizabeth-kucinich-in.html

Jamie,
I love the way you make me think about this. Seems to me the issue is: is Hillary the victim or the ogre?

Shouldn't the issue her ideas, positions, history and character?

I think the MSM is distracting us from what is important to what is salacious.

SC....west and south of charleston.....Ron Paul and McCain the only roadside signs......Ron Paul over McCain 2 to 1.........maybe they're waiting for Ioway and NH before they spend money in SC.....

Dex,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAsJG67LH-4

the A-team was cool but they had nothing on Jim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5pYtG_jo3o

dnd

The easiest way to evaluate her is her six years in the Senate. In that time she has presented and/or signed on to over 400 pieces of legislation. She has almost countless votes on legislation presented by her colleagues. She has now been elected twice by her constituents from the liberal New York City to the rather conservative northern part of the state.

Within that record there are scads of things I agree with and scads of things with which I disagree. That record whether you like it or don't like it says more about her readiness to be President than anything her husband may have done, anything her opponents may say, or anything some opinionated pundit might blurt.

You can look at Biden's record in the same way. You can look at the legislation Richardson has signed and actions he has taken. You can look at Edwards business career during his one term in the Senate and things said while being the VP candidate, and you can evaluate Obama's State activities and one year in the U.S. Senate.

Anything else about any of the candidates is nothing but entertainment and has no value towards how you will decide to vote.

I wonder if this guy feels any shame at all. It would be wonderful to see the extent of his charities

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/goldman-sachs-ceo-gets-679/story.aspx?guid=%7BE1669880-AE13-42FA-BDD0-292655C7710B%7D

More goes into choosing a president than the things you stated Jamie, though they are certainly part of what is important. We entrust the president with the power to end life on this planet. How he or she lived their life and what decisions they made at the tough points in their life and part of the sell.

"dnd in answer to your question look at recent remarks made by both Mark Penn and Bob Kerry. That's how they've done language framing. "

Brian-- that has abslutely nothing to do with ":framing." They both posed legitimate questions about emails and smears that WERE ALREADY OUT THERE. I will say the thing that the press is too wussy to say: those emails had been in the mail for a long time. What they addressed was in answer to Obama's campaign saying that Hillary had a lot of baggage. They were saying that every one of these candidates has areas where they can be attacked.

I've said for months that I worry what the racists will to to Obama....does that make me a racist?

Let's all go back to some college logic classes here.

Brian,

"How he or she lived their life and what decisions they made at the tough points in their life and part of the sell"

You are right. Everyone should make up their own mind:

She grew up as an intelligent but rather serious child in an upper middle class family with a strong Methodist faith that was very conservative to the point of her becoming a Goldwater Girl.

Qualifies for and attends Wellesly becoming more and more liberal during her time there. Graduates at the top of her class making a valedictory speech that castigates the guest of honor about Viet Nam and causes her to hit the news for the first time.

Goes on to attend Yale Law and graduates with honor passing the bar at her first attempt. Falls in love with and marries William Jefferson Clinton and practices law to support the family while he pursues his early political career. Gives birth to daughter and seems to have done a fairly good job of raising her.

As first lady of Arkansas has all sorts of activity pro and con ... on the good side her children's health and education projects on the negative side some rather insider deals in her law practice.

AT some point she had to be aware that her husband was a skirt chaser and dealt with it to the extent that her current 30 year marriage seems pretty well unbreakable.

Worked assiduously to support her husbands candidacy for the Presidency and spent eight years as first Lady of the United States - a position she seems to have held well despite some scandals on her husbands part and some questions about her own activities that may be true or just right win blather.

Once leaving the White House ran for and was elected to two terms in the U.S. Senate. Currently running for President of the United States.

"Like oh, friendship, respect, time in a relationship you don't want to replace, commitment to a shared child, financial and business goals. All marriages are comprised of good stuff and bad stuff. People who value those commitments weigh that good and bad stuff and make adjustments as to whether they stay or go."

Very well said, Jamie, very well said. And the adjustments are all entirely up to the individual: some are willing to put up with a lot more horseshit than others may be.

So, here we are. And I include myself in the scenario. Much about Hillary Clinton has to do with her staying with a husband who cheated on her.

This is what I mean when I say the framing directs us. We've all (and I mean myself!) been talking about the marriage issue.

dnd said "Shouldn't the issue her ideas, positions, history and character?"

Jamie posted a great commentary about the history.

The fact is, Bill Clinton was one of the best presidents we've had in decades. Look at the record. I don't give a shit about his blow jobs. I care about what he left my grandchildren. And what "W" destroyed.

It's not Bill we're being asked to vote for.

But it's Bill you are branding as a Devil who a woman wo must either be dumb or just sneaky stayed with....

Don't kid yourself...a lot of this is about Bill Clinton.

What I haven't been able to understand, Brian, is why I and others can look at Edwards, Richardson, Obama and others with objectivity and you cannot deal with the female candate on the same level.

Is it possible that years of "feminazi" "bitch" "ballbuster" and so many other language "arts" have taken their toll? Ya'think?????

Patsi despite what you think my dislike of Hillary has nothing to do with her gender. But if you want to think otherwise go for it! I've given more than enough reasons for not supporting her that having nothing to do with her gender or marriage.

I don't like her campaign staff.

I don't like her fund raising tactics.

I don't like her vote on Lieberman/Kyle

I don't like her stand on maintaining combat forces in Iraq on a permanent basis.

I don't like her refusal to acknowledge her war vote was a mistake.

I don't like the way she's hedged on questions.

I don't like the way she has used race against Obama.

I don't like the way she holds fund raising luncheons in her home for lobbyists and power brokers from the hill.

And if it's ok to ask if Obama's race is an issue in his electablity why is not ok to raise the question in regard to her gender?

I could go on, but I think that's more than enough reason not to vote for her in a primary.

"And if it's ok to ask if Obama's race is an issue in his electablity why is not ok to raise the question in regard to her gender? "

I have ALWAYS said gender was going to be a big problem for Hillary Clinton.

"I have ALWAYS said gender was going to be a big problem for Hillary Clinton."

Might be less of an issue if she didn't try to exploit it.

So is gender a bigger issue than race? Or are we all just a big ol' bunch of white folk up in here?

time for cake

Julia maybe I'm naive but I don't think to most of the public either is an issue, however I do think they are trying to use Obama's Islamic background against him. And I do resent as what I see as an effort on the part of the Hillary people to start a "religious war" within in the Democratic Party, I think that type of thing is best left to the repugs.

Great post, dex! But dammit...I really, really wanted a pedestal of my very own!

A little Christmas present for all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fe11OlMiz8&feature=related

here's what happens to pedestal people! harborwoman...and you know it!

http://burka.blogspot.com/Hussein%20Statue.jpg

Brian. having grown up in the deep south (re:BF Alabama, where segregation was still very much alive when I was a kid in the 1970s...let me tell you about it sometime), I'd have to say that both gender and race play a BIG part of The Deal, I just don't know which is "WORSE".

Mr. Obama may be a black guy, and he may have gone to an Islamic school in his youth (and I find the "attacks" on his Islamic youth, as subtle as they are, completely repulsive...in my humble opinion, Obama went to an Islamic school = Obama knows more about the Islamic world than the rest of the fucktards running for Pres., but I digress), but Obama is a man.

Hillary is who she is (and we all know who she is), but she is white.

So...again I ask, is it race, or is gender, or is it both?

Iowa AFSCME Disavows HRC
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/21/143041/58/833/425284

Obama never went to an "islamic school" in his life, he went to the local public school where he was raised.

Good morning sports fans! My grandbaby will be here today....and I'm revved. Haven't seen her since Thanksgiving and my daughter say she's talking even more now. She told me on the phone the other day that she wanted to talk to George. (That's George Jones, my dog.)

My new roaster arrived late yesterday and I almost hugged the FedEx guy, I was so relieved. After all the years of having to balance out cooking the casseroles, etc after the turkey or ham was finished, I bought one of those self contained roasters to free up the oven.

And my son should be leaving Washington DC any minute for the drive South....it's all good.

I'll be listening to Leon Redbone soon!

I appreciate the tone-of-the-blog posts from CC and MadM.......it's good to remember that the blog is read by many more than those who post......

and Dex..........Et tu Dexte' ?

Just because I said our immigration problem is being caused by Global Warming?

Will Thomas on Opie Wan Kenobe:

Huckabee Faces A Rush Limbaugh Barrage

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/21/huckabee-faces-a-rush-lim_n_77905.html

ah Sturg.....

the Limbaugh vs Huckabee thing....

the GOP has made it's bed with courting the religious right..... now it's coming back to bite them in the butt.....

it's a lovely thing to see......
and just what they deserve....

Jibjab Year in Review to the tune of "We Didn't Start The Fire"

http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/274/in_2007

Go get a giggle. We all need one.

Reb Ren.....yes, it gives me that very special christmas feeling just thinking about it.........

Jamie, that was great! Thanks.

Happy first day of winter everybody.

Tweety concern troll for Obama
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712220002

The Obama people are probably rethinking their msgop strategy.

If you look at the history of the issue - Matthews is a big ole hypocrite with a very short memory.

whoa...... the GOP is going insane!
they are eating themselves......
(KGC and anon-paranoid should really love this)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/21/american-conservative-mag_n_77943.

crap.... that link didn't work....
here's another link to the same thing......
and just think..... this is Patty Buchanon's magazine.....

http://www.amconmag.com/

dex...I have stepped AWAY from the pedestal...quickly...and not even carefully!

Julia...I grew up in the deep south, too...Meridian, MS. Have an old friend who lives in Sumrall, MS, who's fully prepared to vote for Hillary if she's the Dem nominee, but just can't see himself voting for Obama. At least for him, race is more important than gender. And there's my sample of one....

Patsi...Enjoy your grandbaby! And that new roaster! I got one (roaster, not grandbaby) a few years back, and it's saved me on several holdiays so far. I love it!

Jamie...The JibJab was great! I will now send it to a bunch of email buddies....

dnd...Thanks for the winter felicitations! The best thing about today...to me...is that its' the shortest day of the year. After today, they start getting LONGER again! *doing a happy dance*

kgc...I'm SO happy to see you back here this morning!

And good morning to everyone else, too!

RebelRen...Isn't it fun to see the GOP in such high dudgeon over the mess they've made themselves with their religious right brethren!?! I'm with sturg...adds a special glow to this holiday season! Thank you for that link....

well folks, 17 days after my slip and fall i finally caved and saw a doctor. the darn ankle is broken in several places and they've got me on crutches and in a cast. wouldn't even let me have the ortho boot to hobble around on. if i can get back to DC looks like i'll be covering Iowa and New Hampshire watching TV and the internet like most civilians. oh well.

"i finally caved" = Mom talked some sense into me.

Good grief, Craig! You've got to take better care of yourself! Glad you finally saw a doc and got this thing on the road to actual healing.... (And, if it was your mom who made you do it...GO, MOM!!!)

Craig,

You wouldn't be able to get around Southern NH very well on crutches, anyway. The big story in Nashua paper today was that people have to walk in the streets because there is so much snow the sidwalks can't be cleared. We have had more snow this month than all of last year combined.

So enjoy your forced immobility.

Oh Craig I am so sorry your ankle is broken. Trust me walking on crutches in the winter is awful. It looks like we are in for a blizzard this afternoon so I will be housebound, too :( Get a wheelchair for the trip back to DC or stay and let Mom take care of you.

Craig....... bummer!
but at least now you know what's happening.....
oh..... and I suggest you NEVER take up skiing...... :0)

Bowman...... I can't believe how much we've paid the plowman so far this year..... it's about equal to what we've paid for the last 2 yrs combined.....

went this morning to the local hardware store to buy salt for our water softener (something only rural folks with individual wells need)..... the gal at the register said the phone was ringing off the hook with people looking for roof rakes..... and that's where Rick is right now...... raking the snow off our roof before we get the big rain storm predicted for tomorrow.....

Jamie.... LOVED that jibjab..... HW.... you're most welcomed.....

Mad,
""i finally caved" = Mom talked some sense into me."

"i finally caved" = Mom made me go to the doctor.

ha, you guys nailed it -- Mom would not let me come home from doing the Today Show this morning unless i stopped by the emergency room first. So we're both recuperating, she just got new batteries (a pacemaker) and i need a new foot. But the good news is that we're both quitting the smokes together. So Dad and David are now dealing with a couple of major cranks for Christmas.

Cranky, you may be! But what a wonderful gift...for both yourselves, and for David and your dad! Congratulations on a fine, healthy decision! And good luck with it!

"But the good news is that we're both quitting the smokes together."

Wow! Good luck! And take care of that ankle....

Sometimes you have to just get on your good foot...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wd5uBMqzHGs

Craig....
the best of luck quitting cigarettes...... for both you and your mom....

my dad took 17 tries before he finally quit them for good..... about 20 yrs ago....

like any human being.... I'm no saint.... I have plenty of vices.....
but cigarette smoking was never one of them and after watching what my dad went through, I'm very thankful I never started.....

hope your dad and David have plenty of patience...... :0)

Afternoon peeps, hey Craig glad you finally got that ankle taken care of. Please give both your dad and david my sympathy, sounds like they are in store for a rough xmas!

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