David Corn

Off-topic: The state of Georgia is still trying to execute a man whose guilt is dubious at best. Apparently, persistence is not always a virtue.

http://action.aclu.org/savetroy

Release the hounds! (I mean docs)

The idea that "torture works" makes as much sense as murder works.

The question is not about the efficacy of torture.

Why let Cheney reframe the question?

Even if torture worked - that will never make it legal or wise. Torture is not an American value. Calling it EIT doesn't make it legal.

Imagine the Japanese or the Germans were able to get important intelligence? Would that be a defense to the war crimes?

Cheney should be tried as a war criminal, along with Yoo, Rice, and others.

I totally agree with you Capt., I've been telling people the same thing - The very fact that many can't get themselves to think that waterboarding is torture is even worse. Torture is wrong - it doesn't make any difference if it got results or not - which many who know state it doesn't. Cheney doesn't know squat - he is spouting what he wants everyone to "know".

The probability that Cheney is being truthful is well below 10%. He is a man who has made his living by lying and distorting reality. He would find it nearly impossible to tell the truth about anything at all. His sociopathy would not permit telling the truth.

Since it is now acknowledged that torture was first implemented to establish a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda which never existed, the torturers would clue the victim as what they wanted to hear. (The truth was not anything of value to Cheney, Rumsfeld or their gang unless it matched their fantasies.)

I love how liberals spit and stutter on how horrible "torture" is or the need to end the death penalty. Terrorists and murders are 2 segments who have reneged on their membership in the human race. However they are perfectly ok to abort a defenseless child and call it a choice. The terrorists and murderers made a choice which is more than an aborted child is given by liberals

So torture is ok as long as it is used against terrorists? How do you really know that those in Gitmo are terrorists? Some were swept up for no good reason at all. Comparing this to abortion rights is a red herring. I suppose you would say it is ok to torture a woman who had an abortion?

Try again.

FreeinPA would suggest that a group of cells has more rights than woman in which it being carried. This is the crux of the abortion discussion. I say the woman has more rights and shold be able to decide what to do with her own body. There are many reasons that women choose to terminate a pregnancy. My sister agonized over her decision because the baby she was carrying had no brain. Should she have carried it to term and let it die minutes later? She and her husband made the difficult choice to terminate the pregnancy. FreeinPA would have forced her to go through with it. Delivering a healthy child can be life threatening for the mother. FreeinPA would have forced my sister to undergo a possible life threatening procedure to deliver a still born or soon to die baby. Now that is what I call compassionate conservativism.

Kid - FreeinPA says execute the SOB! Nevermind the fact that he might not actually be guilty!

RE: Abortion post - I was typing too fast and didn't spell or grammar check - you get the point though...

By the way - FreeinPA - I had a very rough delivery of my twins and could have died. I lost a lot of blood and they wanted to give me a blood transfusion. This was in the 80's when we were unsure of the blood supply. I declined the blood transfusion. So, I know from which I speak regarding the life threatening position a woman is in when delivering a child.

If it were up to me I would just ignore Cheney. In fact the best approach is the one that Cheney has used as his signature way of dealing with American objections to his poor judgment. When told that most Americans disagree with some policy of his he just says "So?". I say the same to Cheney's objections and observations. He is a war mongering, paranoid psychotic and the best approach would be to either up his dose of Valium or lower his dose of Plavix.

"He is a war mongering, paranoid psychotic"

(understated but correct!)

lol

Wilkerson: Cheney "Lonely, Paranoid, Frightened"

http://tinyurl.com/l93dfn

To put a fine point on it, substitute "RAPE" for the word torture.

Try to make the same arguments in favor of it and you'll instantly see how ridiculous any justification is.

Rape works, rape got us actionable intelligence, rape saved hundreds of lives, etc.

As Americans we don't rape or torture. It is against our laws, against our values and against all we stand for morally.

Beyond our rule of law and our sense of justice - it is also a violation of international law.

Doesn't matter one bit if it works or not. Acting like a real man isn't sqeamish about rape or torture is an abonination of humane thinking. Clearly the thoughts of a hardened criminal unmoved by humanity.

"What the world needs is not dogma but an attitude of scientific inquiry combined with a belief that the torture of millions is not desirable, whether inflicted by Stalin or by a Deity imagined in the likeness of the believer."

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

The harrowing truth remains unchanged from what it was before Cheney emerged from his bunker to set Washington atwitter. The Bush administration did not make us safer either before or after 9/11. Obama is not making us less safe. If there’s another terrorist attack, it will be because the mess the Bush administration ignored in Pakistan and Afghanistan spun beyond anyone’s control well before Americans could throw the bums out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/opinion/31rich.html?_r=1

So torture is ok as long as it is used against terrorists? How do you really know that those in Gitmo are terrorists?

~~~~

Only three terrorists were waterbaorded nad they were directly responsible for 3000 americans dying!

~~~~~

FreeinPA would suggest that a group of cells has more rights than woman in which it being carried. This is the crux of the abortion discussion. I say the woman has more rights and shold be able to decide what to do with her own body
~~~~

According to this reasoning a terrorist that wants to blow himself up in the twin towers should have the right to say what to do with his own body even if it kills others.

I believe the babys that were born after a botched abortion and then murdered under Obamas vote weren't cells.

The GOP, to its detriment, is still playing games

Rare is the day that Beltway Republicans miss a chance to reconnect with their reactionary base, even as they belatedly come to grips with the realization that the base cannot only not save them but indeed is acting as a pestiferous drag on the GOP's much-needed rebirth. And yesterday was merely a reaffirmation of their arrested development.

http://blog.buzzflash.com/carpenter/403

Ex-Interrogators Are Mad as Hell About Torture, and They're Not Gonna Take Cheney Anymore

More and more former interrogators and counterinsurgency experts are using Dick Cheney’s recent ubiquity to expose his iniquity regarding the torture and abuse of detainees. Earlier this week, I wrote about Major Matthew Alexander, the former Senior Interrogator who conducted over 300 interrogations in Iraq and supervised 1,000 more. Alexander relied upon conventional means of interrogation, and his efforts led to the capture and killing of al-Qaeda leader Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi. Yet Alexander also witnessed the perilous consequences of Cheney’s torture policy.

http://tinyurl.com/lex8hg

Petraeus Criticizes Gitmo And Torture: ‘I Don’t Think We Should Be Afraid To Live Our Values’

Last week, Gen. David Petraeus told Radio Free Europe that he supports President Obama’s decision to close the Guantanamo Bay prison and that he opposes the use of so-called “enhance interrogation techniques.” “I have long been on record as having testified and also in helping write doctrine for interrogation techniques that are completely in line with the Geneva Convention,” Petraeus said.

Today in an interview with Fox News, Petraeus reiterated his support for a “responsible closure” of Gitmo but went a bit further, noting that the prison has been harmful to the U.S.:

PETRAEUS: Gitmo has caused us problems, there’s no question about it. I oversee a region in which the existence of Gitmo has indeed been used by the enemy against us. We have not been without missteps or mistakes in our activities since 9/11. And again, Gitmo is a lingering reminder for the use of some in that regard.

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/29/petraeus-values/

Cheney Offers Support For Gay Marriage

[...]

"I think that freedom means freedom for everyone," replied the former V.P. "As many of you know, one of my daughters is gay and it is something we have lived with for a long time in our family. I think people ought to be free to enter into any kind of union they wish. Any kind of arrangement they wish. The question of whether or not there ought to be a federal statute to protect this, I don't support. I do believe that the historically the way marriage has been regulated is at the state level. It has always been a state issue and I think that is the way it ought to be handled, on a state-by-state basis. ... But I don't have any problem with that. People ought to get a shot at that."

http://tinyurl.com/ksdnox

*****

If Cheney loses the wacko RWNJ's (social cons) who will be left to support his insanity?

lol

Gen. Ricardo Sanchez calls for war crimes truth commission.

[...]

The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, “and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission.”

The General went on to say that, “during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques.”

I interviewed General Sanchez after the event and asked him to elaborate on why he felt the US needed such a commission. … “If we do not find out what happened,” continued the General, “then we are doomed to repeat it.”

http://tinyurl.com/lfpzhc

Oh my, Cheney and Bush are feelin the heat now!

A fetus is not a child. It may have potential to become a child but it is not a child.

There is no rational excuse for declaring the mother's right to remain alive as being forfeit the moment conception occurs. That is the thinking of those who do not respect life but lust after the power to control the behavior of others.

To be pro life and support intentional murder of those whose medical judgement you disagree with puts the lie to being pro anything other other than the willful lust to control the behavior of others.

There are historical records of torture running back many centuries. I have yet to see any writings declaring admiration for a society that indulged in such behavior. Can you imagine anyone saying I love those ****** they were great torturers?

Declaring torture to be a necessary evil is to admit that you are evil also.

When fighting against a monster avoid becoming monsterous. No matter who wins there is still a monster running around.

GOP Has Always Been Dominated by White Voters

[...]

Consider this remarkable statistic. In 1980, 32 percent of the electorate consisted of white Democrats (or at least white Carter voters) -- likewise, in 2008, 32 percent of the electorate consisted of white Obama voters. But whereas, in 1980, just 9 percent of the electorate were nonwhite Carter voters, 21 percent of the electorate were nonwhite Obama voters last year. Thus, Carter went down to a landslide defeat, whereas Obama defeated John McCain by a healthy margin.

In certain ways, I wonder if the GOP isn't paying a price for a strategy adopted years ago -- namely, the Southern Strategy. The Southern Strategy undoubtedly won the GOP many elections over the years, but it was adopted at a time when probably less than 10 percent of the electorate was nonwhite, if minorities were allowed to vote at all, whereas now about a quarter of the electorate is. The steady drumbeat of demographic change, coupled with an inability or unwillingness to adapt to it, has slightly made the Republicans' job harder and harder.

http://tinyurl.com/m5eq27

"Can you imagine anyone saying I love those ****** they were great torturers?"

Historically torturers have been treated as sadists and sociopaths - both accurate.

"Just because we've been dealt a certain hand, it doesn't mean that we can't choose to rise above - to conquer the boundaries of a destiny that none of us wanted. To try to retain whatever essential humanity we can."

~ Stephenie Meyer, Twilight, 2005

Obama has reserved the right to use enhanced interrogation if necessary... end of story!

Declaring late term abortion to be a necessary evil is to admit that you are evil also.

To be pro life and support intentional murder of those whose medical judgement you disagree with puts the lie to being pro anything other other than the willful lust to control the behavior of others.
~~~

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 9 October 2008

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%. About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes perhaps 30% for primarily economic reasons.

~~~

Weak argument Kalpal....

FreeinPA would suggest that a group of cells has more rights than the woman in which it being carried. This is the crux of the abortion discussion. I say the woman has more rights and should be able to decide what to do with her own body...

This is about a woman and what is going on inside her own body - not about someone who is going to blow themselves up and possibly others with him/her - try again

Well, the bottom line is that torure IS illegal, under both US and international law. Waterboarding is torture under US law, as we prosecuted Japanese military personnel who used waterboarding on our soldiers in WWII.

So, legally, Cheney et al. are wrong on the law.

So, even if torturing detainees worked to obtain valuable information, it would still be illegal and a war crime.

But, it didn't work. Imagine....giving a detainee sugar-free cookies worked better for obtaining information than torturing him.

The only reason that 5-Deferment Cheney approved torture is that he has a sadistic streak that is supplemented by his own feelings of inadequacy at having dodged military service in Vietnam.

His day of reckoning can't come too soon for me.

Nearly all pregnancies are viable after the 27th week, and no pregnancies are viable before the 21st week. Everything in between is a “grey area”. About 1.4% of all abortions ocurr after the 21st week and only 0.08% ocurr after the 24th week. So, when we talk about late term abortions, we are talking about a very small number, percentage wise. I realize that for some people out there - abortion is considered murder no matter when it is performed, but I know I will never change your minds - I just wish you'd stay out of other people's business.

I will always stand by my belief that no one but the woman, her family and her doctor and her guidance counselor - whether that is a religious person or a friend or some sort of other type of professional of her choice - should have a say in whether or not a pregnancy is continued to term. Ultimately though, it should be the woman's choice. That is what I believe. I would never force a person to have an abortion - even if it were going to save her life. That would be forcing my beliefs on her. I would hope that a person who believes the opposite of me would respect my beliefs and not force theirs on me. That is all I ask.

In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

I realize that for some people out there - abortion is considered murder no matter when it is performed, but I know I will never change your minds - I just wish you'd stay out of other people's business.

~~~~~~~~

Until the federal government stops using our tax dollars to fund abortions (around the world thanks to Obama) then it is our business and anyone who pays taxes.

So, even if torturing detainees worked to obtain valuable information, it would still be illegal and a war crime.

But, it didn't work. Imagine....giving a detainee sugar-free cookies worked better for obtaining information than torturing him

~~~

Antidote must be a spook with such inside knowledge... Or, a new age psychic....

The message I am getting from the figures of the study I just quoted is that education would go a long way in reducing

1. The number of unwanted pregnancies
2. The number of later term abortions

78% didn't know they were pregnant or misjudged gestation - many women are ignorant of the need for regular physical exams - or do not have acess to adequate healthcare, which can be the reason for this high figure.

Also, a large number found it difficult to make arrangements for abortions. If they were better educated and if we had better health care, including adequate birth control to prevent unwanted pregancies, the number of abortions would be reduced and certainly the number of later term abortions.

Ignoring the fact that sex is a normal human bodily function by preaching abstinance only to highschoolers is like sticking your head in the sand. The number of unwanted preganancies rose - and so did the number of abortions - in areas that "taught" only abstinance only.

Some would force poor people to have a child because they cannot afford to pay for their own health care. The poor are always the ones to suffer because of other people's misguided beliefs. The poor are the ones that are having a hard time getting any type of health care, much less birth control. And what if they were raped? Some would force a poor person to go through with the pregnancy just because she couldn't afford the abortion herself. Yeah, that is compassionate conservatism.

Tax dollars are being spent for all sorts of things that many people don't like. People have a right to speak their mind, vote for the representatives they think are more in line with their beliefs. They don't have a right to put a bullet in the brain of a person who performs legal abortions. There is no justification for this.

If the poor getting access to abortions were really a concern then liberals could start a charity to fund them by giving people choice, just like you want women to have. Don't force me to pay for something that I don't believe in.

Religous groups feed the poor better than any government agency and do it by voluntary contributions.

~~~~~
Some would force a poor person to go through with the pregnancy just because she couldn't afford the abortion herself.

~~~~

Some would say that if you're going to get pregnant then take responsibilty for your actions. Rape or incest or life of the women - I would allow without any problem. That's about 5% of the millions performed every year.

They don't have a right to put a bullet in the brain of a person who performs legal abortions. There is no justification for this.

~~~

No one said there was- now you're making stuff up!
However, I believe in carma and this guy was due for some bad luck, cuz you reap what you sow.

Tax dollars are being spent for all sorts of things that many people don't like.

~~~~

Exactly, that's my point. Voting for someone isn't going to chanage this- they're all corrupt!

They don't have a right to put a bullet in the brain of a person who performs legal abortions.

~~~

So what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't believe in abortion murdered this guy? I believe the man who murdered him had a history of mental illness, you of all people should have more compassion for the murder than me, cuz I don't.

Tax dollars are being spent for all sorts of things that many people don't like.

~~~~

Exactly, that's my point. Voting for someone isn't going to chanage this- they're all corrupt!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

They're all corrupt - they sky is falling - so what is your point? Does that mean that a poor person must be forced to go through with an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy because she cannot afford to pay for it herself - because some tax dollars would be spent and you don't believe in abortion? If that is what you mean, then that is your opinion. I cannot change your opinion. I don't agree with you, but I believe you are entitled to your opinion.

However, that does in any way justify putting a bullet in the head of someone performing a legal medical procedure - even if you think it should be illegal. If that were the case - I'd go out and kill the people who I know ordered the torturing of detainees (which was illegal when Cheney ordered it regardless of what memo was written) which caused the deaths of people. But of course, I wouldn't do that.

Also - waterboarding was 1) performed on more than just 3 people and 2) was not the only form of torture - some of which directly caused the deaths of detainees.

They don't have a right to put a bullet in the brain of a person who performs legal abortions. There is no justification for this.

~~~

No one said there was- now you're making stuff up!
However, I believe in carma and this guy was due for some bad luck, cuz you reap what you sow.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Many people said it - I didn't say you did - and your comment just tells me it is what you were thinking. "You reap what you sow" ... If that doesn't have "it was justified" written all over it, I don't know what does.

So if I were poor and my birth control didn't work (which happened when I got pregnant) and I was not in a position to go through with the pregancy due to my economic situation or a variety of reasons, you are saying that I should beg for funds to have the abortion? Yeah, right.

I believe the man who murdered him had a history of mental illness, you of all people should have more compassion for the murder than me, cuz I don't.
+++++++++++

You cannot believe a person has a history of mental illness, either the person does or doesn't have a history of mental illness. In this case the reports are that he did have a history of mental illness and yes, I feel bad for him. That still doesn't justify Dr. Tiller's murder - carma or no carma.

So if I were poor and my birth control didn't work (which happened when I got pregnant) and I was not in a position to go through with the pregancy due to my economic situation or a variety of reasons, you are saying that I should beg for funds to have the abortion? Yeah, right.

~~~~

No, what I'm saying is take responsiblity for your actions. I worked three jobs and had no health insurance and my wife worked until full term when my first child was born. We paid $25 a month to the hosptal until it was paid for.

So what if your poor, lame excuse for murdering a child!!!!

Many people said it - I didn't say you did - and your comment just tells me it is what you were thinking. "You reap what you sow" ... If that doesn't have "it was justified" written all over it, I don't know what does.

~~~

Hell no I don't feel sorry for him, doesn't mean I approve of the mental case that murdered him.

Also - waterboarding was 1) performed on more than just 3 people and 2) was not the only form of torture - some of which directly caused the deaths of detainees.

~~~

Where are you getting this stuff? You sure believe everything you read on the internet if it comes from a far left web site.

Flan--"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig." ;)

I thoroughly enjoyed Cheney's admission that there was never any connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam. His prior insistence on it was dismissed.

Cheney is only interested in Cheney and he knows now that he will be judged to be the most evill man to ever serve in the US government. He will will judged to be simple scum after he improves by 1000%. He will never get any higher. He is the essence of American conservatism distilled into its most evil form. He makes Nixon and Agnew look like innocent choir boys.